Four Years On...
Sourcerer
is to see here. I see there is not much.
The end of the "charismatic phase" of cyberpunk seems to have
occurred.
The "Hydra" still exists, me, Poly, Nesta, Gene Mosburg. There's a
bit of interest in altcp among us still. It may be time to re-open
the Rancho, but there is no reason to if there's no one else left but
us.
I think it is time to review the cp past, see where things stand, and
rede the omens.
We're interested in what the Rancheros have been up to of late and
what they think the fuck is happening now.
(__) Sourcerer
/(<>)\ O|O|O|O||O||O The world hadn't ever had so many
\../ |OO|||O|||O|O moving parts or so few labels.
|| OO|||OO||O||O -- mlo
jd
I remember you for 4 years ago. you posted an archive of older posts
from when alt.cp had more traffic, IIRC.
I think this newsgroup, much like the rest of USEnet, is largely
vacant except for the odd spammer or a monthly FAQ post. I'm not sure
how well the rest of the alt.cp.* NGs are holding up, the last time I
heard a fair few people had moved over to the forum at http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/
.
Sourcerer
<rm>
> I remember you for 4 years ago. you posted an archive of older posts
> from when alt.cp had more traffic, IIRC.
Yes. I posted here between 1993 and 1999, several thousand articles.
> I think this newsgroup, much like the rest of USEnet, is largely
> vacant except for the odd spammer or a monthly FAQ post.
Altcp, like any unmoderated newsgroup (mostly the entire alt
hierarchy) always had a lot of xposts and spam, but it also had
participants reading and posting. I see that rec.arts.sf.written is
still around. It is (or used to be -- dunno anything about usenet
anymore) moderated. The volume of RASFW is not much different than in
ancient days. Altcp was never a high-volume group like that -- but
many of the posters to it were tenacious in maintaining a living
newsgroup. I'm wondering why that attitude vanished.
>I'm not sure
> how well the rest of the alt.cp.* NGs are holding up,
Not at all.
>the last time I
> heard a fair few people had moved over to the forum athttp://www.cyberpunkreview.com/
> .
It reminds me of Mondo 2000. Probably of interest to cyberpunk-style
things: music, movie, games, and fashion statements. There may be
more there, but I've not seen it. I used their search-box searching
on "hauntology" and got zero hits, for example. And it is probably
better not to think much about what the search "steampunk" resulted
in. MySQL error messages though, so perhaps they've got a tech
problem.
It reminded me of the old question in this newsgroup whether cyberpunk
is anything other than a commodity.
Regards,
Gene Sullivan
> > I think this newsgroup, much like the rest of USEnet, is largely
> > vacant except for the odd spammer or a monthly FAQ post.
> Altcp, like any unmoderated newsgroup (mostly the entire alt
> hierarchy) always had a lot of xposts and spam, but it also had
> participants reading and posting. I see that rec.arts.sf.written is
> still around. It is (or used to be -- dunno anything about usenet
> anymore) moderated. The volume of RASFW is not much different than in
> ancient days. Altcp was never a high-volume group like that -- but
> many of the posters to it were tenacious in maintaining a living
> newsgroup. I'm wondering why that attitude vanished.
"Vanished" makes it sound like it happened quickly. It seemed to me
more like it was slowly beaten out of the regulars by the avalanche
of spam, strange crossposts, clueless newbies with no manners, and
random idiots surfing in from DejaGoogle. After a while, it just
became... disagreeable.
> >the last time I
> > heard a fair few people had moved over to the forum at
> > http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/
> > .
> It reminds me of Mondo 2000. Probably of interest to cyberpunk-style
> things: music, movie, games, and fashion statements. There may be
> more there, but I've not seen it. I used their search-box searching
> on "hauntology" and got zero hits, for example. And it is probably
> better not to think much about what the search "steampunk" resulted
> in. MySQL error messages though, so perhaps they've got a tech
> problem.
I find most web-based forums to be a condensed form of the same things
that made me want to stop reading Usenet, only without most of the
interesting stuff. Campbell's Consensed Cream of Crap.
I've noticed a recent renewed interest in Usenet, though. The spam
and idiots drove out the regulars, and the lack of regulars made
the spammers and idiots move on. Maybe there's still hope.
--
Gene Sullivan :: curio...@gmail.com :: http://curiousgene.com
I'll be more enthusiastic about encouraging thinking outside the box
when there's evidence of any thinking going on inside it.
-Terry Pratchett in afp
Sourcerer
> Sourcerer <vag...@verizon.net> wrote:
<rm>
> Altcp was never a high-volume group like that -- but
> > many of the posters to it were tenacious in maintaining a living
> > newsgroup. I'm wondering why that attitude vanished.
>
> "Vanished" makes it sound like it happened quickly. It seemed to me
> more like it was slowly beaten out of the regulars by the avalanche
> of spam, strange crossposts, clueless newbies with no manners, and
> random idiots surfing in from DejaGoogle. After a while, it just
> became... disagreeable.
We can determine if it was quick by a few hours spent reviewing the
group's posting history...just checking, it looks like Kevin Calder
and alienthe left in 2006 and that's about it (any regular reader can
subtract the xposts). "Vanishing' had happened before but it was
short, months, not years. Back then 'vanishing', especially in the
first half of the 1990s, was coincident with a high percentage of
xposts. It was obvious that a newsgroup with low stats and a narrow
range of interest could be hollowed-out by xposting in a few months if
the members didn't get proactive about it.
To get proactive requires the group having value so that the
expenditure of time and energy seems worthwhile. Back in the 1990s
some of us found it worthwhile. In the 2000s those who might have, did
not. No criticism and no blame. Times change. I find it interesting
and possibly worthwhile to work out what changed.
<jd wrote:>
> > >the last time I
> > > heard a fair few people had moved over to the forum at
> > >http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/
> > > .
> >
> > It reminds me of Mondo 2000. Probably of interest to cyberpunk-style
> > things: music, movie, games, and fashion statements. There may be
> > more there, but I've not seen it.
>
>
> I find most web-based forums to be a condensed form of the same things
> that made me want to stop reading Usenet, only without most of the
> interesting stuff. Campbell's Consensed Cream of Crap.
After posting to web forums for three years I came to the same
conclusion, and stopped last year.
> I've noticed a recent renewed interest in Usenet, though. The spam
> and idiots drove out the regulars, and the lack of regulars made
> the spammers and idiots move on. Maybe there's still hope.
Things may be changing again. Let's say a hangover from digital
technology is underway.
Sourcerer
alt.postmodern seem to be fullfilling its purpose. Nothing much has
changed. The xposting fuckwits still swarm around the guidons in the
Vestibule of the Futile. I assume they all tweet and have their mugs
(or a reasonalble facsimilie thereof) on Facebook.
Early in 1995 when out of 200 posts, 150 were xposts. Some of us got
together to neutralize (there's a pun there) the impact. It may have
added 10 years to the group's active existence.
Once upon a time there was a discussion here about naive and
sophistcated subjects as in psych lab experiments (and also in jury
selection, come to think of it), and the subjects' susceptibility to
"neuro-linguistic hacks". Obviously, the naive are more easily hacked,
but the sophisticated, if hacked, are more deeply and thoroughly
hacked than the naive could ever be.
The current conditions, the digital age, became universal just
recently. What had once been speculation in this newsgroup and in cp
fiction begins to appear in daily life. Back when Nesta and I worked
a scheme against the xposters, there were what? 50 webservers? And
just before then there were none.
Stipulate that readers of this group and writers of cp fiction (and
creators of cp websites etc) were the "sophisticates", then they were
susceptible to the digital hack, moreso than the naive, if they were
hacked.
--
(__) Sourcerer
/(<>)\ O|O|O|O||O||O
\../ |OO|||O|||O|| Mirroring the shadows of futurity
|| OO|||OO||O||O since 1993
alie...@hotmail.com
> On Nov 20, 10:14 pm, Gene Sullivan <curiousg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Sourcerer <vag...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> <rm>
>
> > Altcp was never a high-volume group like that -- but
> > > many of the posters to it were tenacious in maintaining a living
> > > newsgroup. I'm wondering why that attitude vanished.
Let us not forget the Future Culture mailing list, a relative of
alt.cp though with a very different volume. When I was subscribed 200
posts a day was considered a quiet day. Due to work load I had to
unsubscribe, not sure what the status in FC is these days.
> > "Vanished" makes it sound like it happened quickly. It seemed to me
> > more like it was slowly beaten out of the regulars by the avalanche
> > of spam, strange crossposts, clueless newbies with no manners, and
> > random idiots surfing in from DejaGoogle. After a while, it just
> > became... disagreeable.
>
> We can determine if it was quick by a few hours spent reviewing the
> group's posting history...just checking, it looks like Kevin Calder
> and alienthe left in 2006 and that's about it (any regular reader can
Quoth Neo: Whoa!
Well, I was never totally gone but real life commitments left no time
for anything but work and then the group went into Septembria. I
checked in every other month or so and while the Chatsubo was a little
alive the alt.cp was rather dead, up to now that is.
> subtract the xposts). "Vanishing' had happened before but it was
> short, months, not years. Back then 'vanishing', especially in the
> first half of the 1990s, was coincident with a high percentage of
> xposts. It was obvious that a newsgroup with low stats and a narrow
> range of interest could be hollowed-out by xposting in a few months if
> the members didn't get proactive about it.
I suspect I am not alone in being forced off the groups by the work
load. Has everyone grown up, left Never Never Land, and signed up with
LinkedIn? I see at least a few of the regulars there. One person
appears even to have erased himself from the Google archives, possibly
in preparing for the corporate life style.
> To get proactive requires the group having value so that the
> expenditure of time and energy seems worthwhile. Back in the 1990s
> some of us found it worthwhile. In the 2000s those who might have, did
> not. No criticism and no blame. Times change. I find it interesting
> and possibly worthwhile to work out what changed.
>
> <jd wrote:>
> > > >the last time I
> > > > heard a fair few people had moved over to the forum at
> > > >http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/
> > > > .
>
> > > It reminds me of Mondo 2000. Probably of interest to cyberpunk-style
> > > things: music, movie, games, and fashion statements. There may be
> > > more there, but I've not seen it.
Well, it has a fair list of things though Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou and
Denno Coil appear to be lacking.
> > I find most web-based forums to be a condensed form of the same things
> > that made me want to stop reading Usenet, only without most of the
> > interesting stuff. Campbell's Consensed Cream of Crap.
>
> After posting to web forums for three years I came to the same
> conclusion, and stopped last year.
>
> > I've noticed a recent renewed interest in Usenet, though. The spam
> > and idiots drove out the regulars, and the lack of regulars made
> > the spammers and idiots move on. Maybe there's still hope.
>
> Things may be changing again. Let's say a hangover from digital
> technology is underway.
Popularity of RSS suggests to me that "less is more" remains true. Too
bad there are so many versions of RSS, Atom and whatnot of other
feeds. Usenet News seems then a better alternative.
Wonder how everyone is doing, my archives have been quiet for quite a
while up to now. I see from my archives that Pixiefuel was around in
2006 and her manifesto was still making its rounds back then.
Considering the political and financial situation of 2009 I would have
thought that there should be a lot of life left in this group.
Oh yes, that reminds me: I was planning to write a post this year,
asking if anyone would feel old knowing that this year it is 25 years
since Neuromancer appeared. Also Matrix has an anniversary:
http://xkcd.com/566/
==<)
==<)
Sourcerer
> On Nov 21, 6:43ï¿œam, Sourcerer <vag...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Nov 20, 10:14ï¿œpm, Gene Sullivan <curiousg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Sourcerer <vag...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>> first half of the 1990s, was coincident with a high percentage of
>> range of interest could be hollowed-out by xposting in a few months if
>> the members didn't get proactive about it.
>
> I suspect I am not alone in being forced off the groups by the work
> load. Has everyone grown up, left Never Never Land, and signed up with
> LinkedIn? I see at least a few of the regulars there. One person
> appears even to have erased himself from the Google archives, possibly
> in preparing for the corporate life style.
I was reading an old post of mine from the 1990s. It mentions several
threads here related to our struggle with xposters. I can find none of
them in google's archive. I have my own archive, though.
>> > that made me want to stop reading Usenet, only without most of the
>> > interesting stuff. Campbell's Consensed Cream of Crap.
>>
>> After posting to web forums for three years I came to the same
>> conclusion, and stopped last year.
>>
>> > I've noticed a recent renewed interest in Usenet, though. The spam
>> > and idiots drove out the regulars, and the lack of regulars made
>> > the spammers and idiots move on. Maybe there's still hope.
I doubt it. Revive altcp and the xposters will be back. In rasfw one of
the xpost threads is over 1700 articles now. The only reason to revile
xposts -- besides aesthetics -- is that it blocks noobs from seeing the
newsgroup they were looking and hoping for. After awhile the newsgroup
dies. Using an rn class newsreader like trn solves the aesthetic issue
because it will kill xposts with a simple regexp, but that doesn't help
the noobs who are unlikely to be using the old technology. I like the
old technology. One issue I have with new tech is that it is
probably crap, and gamed to get to you, no matter the kewl bells and
whistles (see the pretty keys a'jangling?).
> Considering the political and financial situation of 2009 I would have
> thought that there should be a lot of life left in this group.
2005 follows on both the US Presidential election and the earthquake
tsunami. 2005 was the year of hurricane Katrina. It was the year that
ebay consolidated paypal and the European auction sites. It
was the year ex-paypal employees began Facebook. MySpace came online in
what? January or February? Probably Flickr, too, around then. 2005 was the
year that high speed internet became common in the US, when web blog and
forum templates became popular. Twitter appears in 2006. 2004-2006 is
a timeframe worth looking at closely.
> Oh yes, that reminds me: I was planning to write a post this year,
> asking if anyone would feel old knowing that this year it is 25 years
> since Neuromancer appeared. Also Matrix has an anniversary:
It may to those who constructed their youthful identities with them. These
days I check the stats, consumed with curiosity why altcyberpunk.com
since I posted the url here has the majority of its hits coming from
.mil addresses, including a dod site in Kabul.
You grow up to discover life is a lot like fiction.
--
(__) Sourcerer
/(<>)\ O|O|O|O||O||O
Wy
lot has changed since then.
Back then, our uplinks, for those of us living in the future, were
university connections shell on vaxen or the rare unix machine.
Alternately, we dialed into a unix shell and ran SLIRP or some other
SLIP/PPP emulator to connect. Mobile devices were bulky analog band
machines. The original Palm Pilot was still on some drawing boards at
US Robotics.
Even then we could see the connected future. Of constant connectivity,
of devices at our side which assist our daily tasks. Of new
acquaintances and linkings into the connected groupmind of humanity.
Of opportunity, perhaps, as well. And the dangers.
Even then, we were fighting the endless fight of signal over noise. Of
filtration of the 'right' signal, screening of those who crossposted
nonsensical ideas and thoughts, of attracting more mass to the memes
we propogate to further them .. Thing is, though - our infrastructure
hasn't moved on since then.
Now to more practical aspects.
USENET, in general, and alt.cp in its current setup, is geared towards
open propagation. The user is left to bring their own filters, and
it's a raw look at what the network is like without those filters in
its rawest form.
But we can't forget our roots, either.
I've thought awhile about this, back in the late 90's when the first
web bulletin boards were coming about. What would be a good hybrid
between the raw newsgroup and the isolation of some isolated bulletin
board fragmenting the community. I'm convinced that a web frontend,
with appropriate filtration installed, 'over' the existing nntp server
infrastructure, would serve both purposes. Threaded by topic, with
built in spam filtration and crosspost detection, that's what's needed
these days. It won't serve to sever access for those who are still
using the old ways. Yet it brings the best of the new, of middle
layers which assist your purpose instead of trying to subvert it to
some corporate whim, as well as integrating with the old.
Wyatt
Pierre Anoid
Turns out I sent my first e-mail in 1981. Wasn`t on net per say until
1994. Now I am on everyday since then. I edited a collection of
stories from posters here. You can buy it if you want. We get royalty
cheques. I was a punk rocker in 1979 and a computer programmer at the
same time. I claim the title cyberpunk. bla bla. I think of all the
time I wasted reading usenet. yes indeed. bye for now.
vag...@circuit-riders.net
<rm>
> I've thought awhile about this, back in the late 90's when the first
> web bulletin boards were coming about. What would be a good hybrid
> between the raw newsgroup and the isolation of some isolated bulletin
> board fragmenting the community. I'm convinced that a web frontend,
> with appropriate filtration installed, 'over' the existing nntp server
> infrastructure, would serve both purposes. Threaded by topic, with
> built in spam filtration and crosspost detection, that's what's needed
> these days. It won't serve to sever access for those who are still
> using the old ways. Yet it brings the best of the new, of middle
> layers which assist your purpose instead of trying to subvert it to
> some corporate whim, as well as integrating with the old.
How would this differ from what has been available in the way of
newsreaders since the mid-1990s, if it is the interface that is the
issue (for example, newsreaders from xrn or Forte Free Agent to Mozilla
Thunderbird)? For www propagation there is Google (not a newsserver
itself, of course)-- the fact that it neglects usenet notwithstanding.
Wy
> How would this differ from what has been available in the way of
> newsreaders since the mid-1990s, if it is the interface that is the
> issue (for example, newsreaders from xrn or Forte Free Agent to Mozilla
> Thunderbird)? For www propagation there is Google (not a newsserver
> itself, of course)-- the fact that it neglects usenet notwithstanding.
The idea is it's not merely an interface, but a feature superset to
add threading and filtering and community features by default. A
backwards compatible shift in the fundamental features above and
beyond that of usenet. While some newsreaders provide parts of this,
it lacks consistency and resource pooling. It contrasts to shifting to
a 'web board' as many have done (like the above website) which leaves
the existing community behind to form a new 'place' to compete with
the old place.
Google Groups' usenet interface is indeed an example, but it's generic
and designed to get groups to shift to Google Groups (proper) by
withholding features such as filtering and off-group chatter.
Sourcerer
Gave me a start there. I parsed it as Pierre Pressure who posted to
altcp from Australia. He would've like Pierre Anoid, I think.
Sourcerer
Wy <w...@dragonfeathers.org> wrote:
<rm>
> The idea is it's not merely an interface, but a feature superset to
> add threading and filtering and community features by default. A
> backwards compatible shift in the fundamental features above and
> beyond that of usenet. While some newsreaders provide parts of this,
> it lacks consistency and resource pooling. It contrasts to shifting to
> a 'web board' as many have done (like the above website) which leaves
> the existing community behind to form a new 'place' to compete with
> the old place.
<rm>
I have felt resistance to what you have written in this thread, and now
it is becoming clear to me why. It seems you are describing integrating
usenet with the internet -- set aside for the moment the www and
interfaces. That is a profound structural and ideological shift. Usenet
is not the internet and is not a part of the internet. That it has been
propagated mostly via the internet has confused lots of people.
You may not have considered that, but maybe you have. I don't know if
it is necessary for me to provide a few reasons why I think it is not a
good idea, but I can if you like.
Wy
> I have felt resistance to what you have written in this thread, and now
> it is becoming clear to me why. It seems you are describing integrating
> usenet with the internet -- set aside for the moment the www and
> interfaces. That is a profound structural and ideological shift. Usenet
> is not the internet and is not a part of the internet. That it has been
> propagated mostly via the internet has confused lots of people.
:P It's been a long time since I've seen anyone access usenet by means
other than the internet. While yes, mail relay, modem relay, etc, is
still possible, it's about as relevant as abacci. Maybe less so.
> You may not have considered that, but maybe you have. I don't know if
> it is necessary for me to provide a few reasons why I think it is not a
> good idea, but I can if you like.
Of course I have. Evolve or die. There's a reason why alt.* is a ever
shrinking medium, and the best webboards have their stable communities
with orders of magnitude more population and participation.
The problem there has always been one of diaspora of population.
Without the backwards compatability, communities fragment into
smaller, less effective, less coordinated groups. I've watched, for
the past decade and a half, lots of communities wither and die because
of subgroup politics. A critical mass always fragments and moves away,
then another, and another, then each of those subgroups fragment more,
then die.
Any revival needs to consider how to keep people, both old and new, in
the community. Ideally, like our enclave discussion, it's a way to
network slightly divergent, disparate groups together. An inter-
network, as it were.
Sourcerer
> On Jan 5, 7:38ï¿œpm, Sourcerer <vag...@inanna.eanna.net> wrote:
>
>> I have felt resistance to what you have written in this thread, and now
>> it is becoming clear to me why. It seems you are describing integrating
>> usenet with the internet -- set aside for the moment the www and
>> interfaces. That is a profound structural and ideological shift. Usenet
>> is not the internet and is not a part of the internet. That it has been
>> propagated mostly via the internet has confused lots of people.
>
> :P It's been a long time since I've seen anyone access usenet by means
> other than the internet. While yes, mail relay, modem relay, etc, is
> still possible, it's about as relevant as abacci. Maybe less so.
It is relevant because usenet is not the internet and vice versa.
>> You may not have considered that, but maybe you have. ï¿œI don't know if
>> it is necessary for me to provide a few reasons why I think it is not a
>> good idea, but I can if you like.
>
> Of course I have. Evolve or die. There's a reason why alt.* is a ever
> shrinking medium, and the best webboards have their stable communities
> with orders of magnitude more population and participation.
The alt hierarchy is shrinking because hardly anyone recognizes any of
it. Who will post to
alt.fan.<somebody-who-hasn't-been-heard-of-in-a-decade>?, because
newgrouping didn't require the process of the Big Eight, because a
percentage of the groups newgrouped were jokes, because they weren't
moderated, and etc.
> The problem there has always been one of diaspora of population.
> Without the backwards compatability, communities fragment into
> smaller, less effective, less coordinated groups. I've watched, for
> the past decade and a half, lots of communities wither and die because
> of subgroup politics. A critical mass always fragments and moves away,
> then another, and another, then each of those subgroups fragment more,
> then die.
In my experience when scenes begin they are weak in terms of numbers and
in activity and anything that seems associated is at a minimum tolerated
if not incorporated. Consider punk (I mean '70s punk' -- an example of
fragmentation right there in the label). It included so much diversity
that at the time anything on an indie label was worthy of consideration.
By 1979 the fragmentation was underway. The ideology that effected
toleration and incorporation was forgotten if it had ever been known by
the '80s punk' noobs.
In re altcp, cyberpunk itself was no longer of interest, if it ever had
been, to many posters to this group. Instead there were fans of
cyberpunk novels, fans of cyberpunk anime, fans of cyberpunk movies etc
etc. They were better served by the www. Not to mention the masses who
thought altcp was about "cyberpunks". Why read altcp, if you were a fan
of whoever when you could read his or her blog and post to his or her
forum on the www? Why read altcp if you were a fan of cyberpunk games or
anime when the www would serve up jpegs, mp3s, and flash movies in your
browser, as well as blogs and forums devoted to one's fannish interests?
And that was true of other groups, not just those in the alts. But altcp
was not for fans of anything or anybody. at least not in concept.
Basically, the alt hierarchy -- at least as it was seen here -- stung
itself to death like some smackdown of scorpions, via xposts, flames,
trolls, and the general "enthusiasm" for "anarchy" and being "free" in
"cyberspace" on the "I'net".
> Any revival needs to consider how to keep people, both old and new, in
> the community. Ideally, like our enclave discussion, it's a way to
> network slightly divergent, disparate groups together. An inter-
> network, as it were.
>
Traffic 15 years ago was 4-5 gigabytes. Now it is 4-5 terabytes. Most of
that is binaries. That is a major reason the main isps do not carry
usenet anymore (the overall reason is that it is not a profit center but
a cost center). I doubt there is anyone who would be willing to host
them on the web, assuming it could be done. Who wants to live their
lives in federal court (and possibly federal prisons) and spend the big
bucks just to further the careers of the Giulianis and Cuomos? Usenet
deals with the laws and regs of the nations the news servers are in (and
whoever owns the server and pays the news admins and the transaction
costs). Laws are different in nations as are languages. Would such a
site host them all? What about local and municipal groups? Company
groups? And who pays the payroll for the site?
Slightly divergant and disparate groups are that way for reasons they
find compelling, I'd guess.
There may be a reason why most newsreaders suck, at least those written
for the GUI, and why web browsers suck, too. If anyone can convince the
developers to build decent filtering into Thunderbird, then I'll assume
the rapture has come.
So, here I am at the console in tin, easily killing the spam, with a
free nonbinary newsfeed, with propagation and retention that was only
dreamt of in the 1990s, with a 24/7 dsl connection rather than a 2400
baud modem hogging the landline with 200 dialings of the isp trying to
hook a connection, on a transaction fee account. Things have improved
immensely.
Sourcerer
Wyatt,
I guess I'm bored with the www and its presumed potential. It's been
around for 15 years or so, and now is what it is and it will be nothing
else than that, I think. Fifteen years ago we wrote about the exodus
from usenet. I think mpa had it in his sig back then, too. The condition
of "cyberspace" comes as no surprise to us, and neither does the
commercialization and bureaucratization of the www.
I'm thinking of the 12 year olds, the 15 year olds for whom the www is
as exciting as Dad's fave tv show was to me when I was that age. I'm
looking for signs of rejection of that which has passed into the
mundane. What I see is appropriation of old technologies, styles, and
attitudes. That happens a lot when something new is afoot, a kind of
skipping over the parent's generation the way the punks did in the 70s,
avoiding the Jackson Brownes and Warren Zevons and seeking out the Gene
Vincents and Roky Ericksons instead. I don't know what it may be, but I
would expect to see BBS's becoming popular before the www generates
anything exciting and new. Whether there is a sense of rejection
underway, there is probably an exhaustion or saturation with the digital
era. It exciteth the imagination no more.
Sourcerer
???Today???s cutting-edge youth demands free access to uncensored
information over the Internet with universal encryption to guarantee
secure, unmediated communications. Once again, through a technological
backdoor, we are witnessing a social movement that threatens to pull
the plug on the powers-that-be. As it loses its traditional control
over information, government becomes irrelevant. After all the
loudmouthed posturing and wishful thinking, all the manifestos and
ephemera, will it really be the ones and zeros of the computer???s
binary code that render authority obsolete and redefine human
relations???? ??? Peter Stansill, Preface to the 1999 edition of BAMN:
Outlaw Manifestos & Ephemera 1965 ??? 1970.
http://mutateweb.com/archives/2009/08/10/birthers-and-democratization/
"Demand" is a word I've come to view with suspicion in such contexts.
It seems to go back to the 1960s New Left on campus..."non-negotiable
demands". We had the G20 demos in town last year and it was demand
this demand that. The sheep look up and are not fed. 'Demanding'
assents to the social power. 'Demand' is the domain of consumers (as
in supply and demand), not citizens.
"Today???s cutting-edge youth demands free access to uncensored
information over the Internet with universal encryption to guarantee
secure, unmediated communications". Yup. Information wants to be free
-- except my private information, which is not to be freely available,
but securely private.
"In seeking to resolve tomorrow's disputes, the justice consumer will
demand options as surely as he or she will insist on choices in
seeking any other valuable commodity".
Chief Justice's Commission on the Future
of the Courts (Mass) 1992
Rather than slightly divergent groups getting together for
discussions, why not do something instead? We are already together; we
already live in a 'togethered' world, as we are all in the same boat.
is worth considering. Poly and I have been on that track for years. I
like it because it is 'non-denominational' -- no matter your ideology,
politics, religion there is something in it to like. This is part of
the pattern of "rejectionism" I see emerging.
Johnny Fusion =11811=
To: Sourcerer <vag...@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Four Years On...
In-Reply-To: <119a97e9-090a-47f6...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>
X-Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
Four years on. Seems closer to 15 for me. It was 1995 when I was the
runner up in the alt.cp beauty contest after you, Source. I shudder to
look back at what young 20 something Johnny had to say and how much of it
rings true here in the second decade of the 21st century.
So where are we now? Gibson's cyberspace never happened but they have
toys that read brainwaves and float balls. There has been a paradign
shift just what jacking in will look like. It turned out Virtual Reality
is where it was at after all, though we don't use headsets but just plain
monitors to interact with virtual worlds. And thats where I have been
playing for the past four years, virtual worlds. We don't have Gibson's
consensual hallucination, but we do have Stephenson's -- with better
physics.
My little playground is the Second Life grid. A bold experiment in a
Massivly Multiplayer environment, where the content of that world is
created by its users. Well at least thats the original idea. I won't get
into the policies of Linden Labs which have gone from hands off to
exerting more and more control over content (possibly self policing to try
to avoid legislative oversight). Anyway, with Second Life's tools one can
create just about anything and take any form they choose.
There are three basic elements to creations that exist in the 3d virtual
world of Second Life. There are objects itself comprised of 3d shapes
known as Primitives ("Prims" for short) then the surface of prims can be
displayed a Texture. For many things, that's enough. You have an object
made of prims, painted with textures. Ah but what if you want it to
actually DO something? Well then you need a script. A small computer
program that instructs objects how to act and interact with both the user
and the enviroment. You old timers might remember that Johnny is a very
technical boy, and its scripting that I have made my fame and fortune in
Second Life.
So thats what I have been doing "four years on" current projects are
intersting interfacing Second Life Objects to databases hosted on the web
and bringing data from the database back into the grid.
I am still living the dream, still wear my black leather jacket (well in
the fall and sping anyway for winter I have a p-coat) though I would not
even know where to buy mirrored sunglasses in this day and age. Makes me
wonder if anyone ever did manage to invent the oft-dreamed about mirrored
contact lenses.
Well I have rambled on long enough. I managed to remember how to start a
reply with tin, lets see if I can remember how to post.
Oh really don't visit the website in my .sig thats 15 years old too.
--
/// /// ///\\\ /// /// Johnny Fusion
*** || || \\\/// || || *** =11811=
*** || || ///\\\ || || *** <jfu...@xs4all.nl>
#### #### \\\/// #### #### http://www.xs4all.nl/~jfusion
Sourcerer
> From: Johnny Fusion =11811= <jfu...@xs4all.nl>
> To: Sourcerer <vag...@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Four Years On...
> In-Reply-To: <119a97e9-090a-47f6...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>
> X-Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
>
> Four years on. Seems closer to 15 for me. It was 1995 when I was the
> runner up in the alt.cp beauty contest after you, Source. I shudder to
> look back at what young 20 something Johnny had to say and how much of it
> rings true here in the second decade of the 21st century.
The beauty contests are on the Rancho Home Movies program.
> So where are we now? Gibson's cyberspace never happened but they have
> toys that read brainwaves and float balls. There has been a paradign
> shift just what jacking in will look like. It turned out Virtual Reality
> is where it was at after all, though we don't use headsets but just plain
> monitors to interact with virtual worlds. And thats where I have been
> playing for the past four years, virtual worlds. We don't have Gibson's
> consensual hallucination, but we do have Stephenson's -- with better
> physics.
There are interesting and useful technologies out there that are not
making it to the mall -- or I should say, not for sale, since some are
being used *at* the mall (auto-id tags on products, for example). From
the not too distant past: Dr Ray Bakay's (Emory University) implant
research, with the disabled as subjects, moving onscreen cursors via the
implant in order to communicate by selecting icons. And what was British
Telecom up to with their Soulcatcher 2025 project? Another Telco,
Northern, I think, in Canada, 15 years ago announced they could provide
the internet via the electrical mains. No ISP. No "gateways". I recall
Joel Benford had a good technical-oriented article about the idea. What
about solar collector cells in house paint? There was r&d on that at
Berkeley. Just a few from only the 1990s.
Any paradigm-shifting technology these days I figure is black-iced from
the gitgo, considering the sources funding the r&d and their thing about
non-disclosure and national security.
> My little playground is the Second Life grid.
<rm>
"Gibson's cyberspace never happened". I'm writing an article for
altcyberpunk.com titled The Death of Cyberspace. I think "never
happened" is too final. It hasn't happened yet, or it has, but it is
black-iced. What I've found interesting is the fate of 'cyber'. Once
upon a time 'cyber' seemed to fuse to anything...cybersex, cybersell --
Poly found the L'Oreal ad campaign for Cybershine cosmetics back then,
which might have been the peak of the 'cyber' memetic fecundity. These
days only agents of the State and their corporate partners seem to be
able to use 'cyber' with a straight face. Not just cyberspace, but
cyberwar, cyberterrorism and so on. Considering the language of our
Secretary of State re: Operation Aurora, 'cyber' and 'cyberspace' are
about to make a comeback.
I don't see to strong a connection between Gibson's cyberspace and VR
simulations on the WWW. Maybe it's time to go back to origins. That
seems to be a necessary step in understanding paradigm-shifting eras. To
go back in the mainline of cyberpunk ("proto-cyberpunk"?) prior to
computers being the model, back when the net referred to landlines,
simply to gain perspective and perhaps break the spell of the computer.
It may be that the networked computer model is inhibiting our
imaginations. The Ono Sendai was not a personal computer.
> So thats what I have been doing "four years on" current projects are
> intersting interfacing Second Life Objects to databases hosted on the web
> and bringing data from the database back into the grid.
Poly and I quit our jobs and moved to the high desert in Utah canyon
country for five years. Got back to Pgh in '08 and bought a 90 year old
house in our old neighborhood. Our biz is website devel, technical
writing, seo, web-business integration. The usual.
> I am still living the dream, still wear my black leather jacket (well in
> the fall and sping anyway for winter I have a p-coat) though I would not
> even know where to buy mirrored sunglasses in this day and age. Makes me
> wonder if anyone ever did manage to invent the oft-dreamed about mirrored
> contact lenses.
Probably 8-)...and, I had a pair of mirrorshades when I was 11.
> Well I have rambled on long enough. I managed to remember how to start a
> reply with tin, lets see if I can remember how to post.
From Poly "Hello, Johnny.", and says you should drop by for some pie at
the Rancho Deluxe.
Regards,
--
(__) Sourcerer
/(<>)\ O|O|O|O||O||O
Sweet Poly
> To: Sourcerer <vag...@verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: Four Years On...
> In-Reply-To: <119a97e9-090a-47f6...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com>
> X-Newsgroups: alt.cyberpunk
>
<rm>
> So thats what I have been doing "four years on" current projects are
> intersting interfacing Second Life Objects to databases hosted on the web
> and bringing data from the database back into the grid.
>
> I am still living the dream, still wear my black leather jacket (well in
> the fall and sping anyway for winter I have a p-coat) though I would not
> even know where to buy mirrored sunglasses in this day and age. Makes me
> wonder if anyone ever did manage to invent the oft-dreamed about mirrored
> contact lenses.
>
> Well I have rambled on long enough. I managed to remember how to start a
> reply with tin, lets see if I can remember how to post.
>
> Oh really don't visit the website in my .sig thats 15 years old too.
>
So glad to see you again, Johnny Fusion. As Source said, tea at the Rancho is always at 4:00. Nothing has
really changed. The tea is Earl Grey. The tea service I'm using currently is white porcelain with oriental
poppies, and a brushed steel handle. The creamer is a little white elephant. The silverware is a little
tarnished but sterling. Antique white linen napkins.
There are lemon cookies and brownies and if we're really hungry, we have cheese and crackers...
And I'd like to ask you about Second Life over tea.
I've always been curious but I've never been there; never known anyone who participates. What does it feel
like? Is it like being here at the Rancho, where the shared reality is maintained in text? Or does it feel
more "real"?
All I know about Second Life is that I've seen articles about people who are making a decent
living by designing fashions for SL - what? characters? avatars? Also something about people being charged
for committing "crimes" in the virtual space. Interesting issues.
Now I have to get ready for a conference call. I'll be needing tea by the time that's over with.
Best,
Poly
--
Sweet Poly
po...@circuit-riders.net
T---A
C---G
A-T Real life is a story told in cyberspace.
C
T-A
C---G
G---C
Johnny Fusion =11811=
<rm>
: And I'd like to ask you about Second Life over tea.
:
: I've always been curious but I've never been there; never known anyone who participates. What does it feel
: like? Is it like being here at the Rancho, where the shared reality is maintained in text? Or does it feel
: more "real"?
It seems a bit more real to me, but where the Rancho on alt.cp is painted
with text, if we were to migrate to Second Life it would be a shared
reality painted with 3d interactive objects. The interaction is in
real-time as oppossed to the time-shifted nature of USENET. Where here the Rancho
is painted in our minds, in SL it would be painted on the screen.
It really is Stephenson's Metaverse from _Snow Crash_ realized, but like I said
with better physics.
:
: All I know about Second Life is that I've seen articles about people who are making a decent
: living by designing fashions for SL - what? characters? avatars? Also something about people being charged
: for committing "crimes" in the virtual space. Interesting issues.
There are many ways to make a living in second life. But it breaks down to three
basic categories. Service, Content Creation, and Land. I kind of straddle the
line between service and Content Creation as I both teach, do public service work
and write scripts (software). The thing to understand about Second Life is that
most of the content there is Resident Created.
As to "crimes" about the only punishment Linden Labs can dish out is to ban you.
And there are third party clients designed to get around such bans. So in many
ways its a game of cat and mouse. Even the policing system is somewhat dependent
on the residents using a system of "Abuse Reports" filed by residents that are
then actd upon by the powers-that-be, the "Lindens".
:
: Now I have to get ready for a conference call. I'll be needing tea by the time that's over with.
:
: Best,
:
: Poly
I would love to chat more about this with you. Maybe even give you a tour of the
grid. My SL name is ZenMondo Wormser. IF you do create an Avatar I suggesst you
begin in the community gateway of Caledon. That is my "home base" of operations, a
19th Century Victorian Steampunk Themed Micronation. Yes Johnny Fusion the
Cyberpunk has grown up to ZenMondo the Steampunk.
-- johnny
Johnny Fusion =11811=
<rm>
: <rm>
:
: "Gibson's cyberspace never happened". I'm writing an article for
: altcyberpunk.com titled The Death of Cyberspace. I think "never
: happened" is too final. It hasn't happened yet, or it has, but it is
: black-iced. What I've found interesting is the fate of 'cyber'. Once
: upon a time 'cyber' seemed to fuse to anything...cybersex, cybersell --
: Poly found the L'Oreal ad campaign for Cybershine cosmetics back then,
: which might have been the peak of the 'cyber' memetic fecundity. These
: days only agents of the State and their corporate partners seem to be
: able to use 'cyber' with a straight face. Not just cyberspace, but
: cyberwar, cyberterrorism and so on. Considering the language of our
: Secretary of State re: Operation Aurora, 'cyber' and 'cyberspace' are
: about to make a comeback.
Well when I say Gibson's Cyberspace never happened, I mean we leapfrogged it. We
are not in a world where we are trying to acheive Gibson's Matrix, but the
Wachowski Brother's Matrix.
Who knows maybe when we get to the point of using our wetware to directly
interface with data in full duplex (inplants and trodes are what I consder
half-duplex communication) it may look more like Gibson's idea. Geometries and
the like. But I have a feeling that it will be more simulation and less abstract
reality.
You know I am looking at some of my old writings in the archive, and it seems one
of my predictions came true. That the movement would not always be
counter-cultural but eventually assimilated into the mainstream culture. The
"cyber" prefix is no longer outside, its no longer new, its no longer a commercial
gimmick, but as you say its something politicians can say with a straight face,
and even more telling have the common constitutant actually comprehend easily just
what is being talked about.
:
: I don't see to strong a connection between Gibson's cyberspace and VR
: simulations on the WWW. Maybe it's time to go back to origins. That
: seems to be a necessary step in understanding paradigm-shifting eras. To
: go back in the mainline of cyberpunk ("proto-cyberpunk"?) prior to
: computers being the model, back when the net referred to landlines,
: simply to gain perspective and perhaps break the spell of the computer.
: It may be that the networked computer model is inhibiting our
: imaginations. The Ono Sendai was not a personal computer.
Hmm I guess you are right. The Ono Sendai was a modem, the processing being done
by the mind, and interaction taking place on the cloud. Though I am certain Gibson
did not think in those terms or really the partical tech at all, in literature
cyberspace is metaphor. And this can be extended to all intercation with digital
devices, that it all operates and interacts on the level of metaphor. The metaphor
has become more nuanced since we bagan this journey. Command lines always seemed
to me more direct, but these days after decades of use I am just as comfortable
with the metaphor of a "desktop" and even further the whole metaphor of a
simulated reality, yet being who I am, I can still peer beyond the screen and see
the underlying ones and zeros. Well not so much these days, but yet another
metaphor of higher level languages. Its been a while since I have "coded to the
metal" but I like to think the concepts are still there.
-- johnny
Sourcerer
>
> <rm>
> : <rm>
> :
> : "Gibson's cyberspace never happened". I'm writing an article for
> : altcyberpunk.com titled The Death of Cyberspace. I think "never
> : happened" is too final. It hasn't happened yet, or it has, but it is
> : black-iced. What I've found interesting is the fate of 'cyber'. Once
> : upon a time 'cyber' seemed to fuse to anything...cybersex, cybersell --
> : Poly found the L'Oreal ad campaign for Cybershine cosmetics back then,
> : which might have been the peak of the 'cyber' memetic fecundity. These
> : days only agents of the State and their corporate partners seem to be
> : able to use 'cyber' with a straight face. Not just cyberspace, but
> : cyberwar, cyberterrorism and so on. Considering the language of our
> : Secretary of State re: Operation Aurora, 'cyber' and 'cyberspace' are
> : about to make a comeback.
>
> Well when I say Gibson's Cyberspace never happened, I mean we leapfrogged it. We
> are not in a world where we are trying to acheive Gibson's Matrix, but the
> Wachowski Brother's Matrix.
>
> Who knows maybe when we get to the point of using our wetware to
> directly interface with data in full duplex (inplants and trodes are
> what I consder half-duplex communication) it may look more like
> Gibson's idea. Geometries and the like. But I have a feeling that it
> will be more simulation and less abstract reality.
The Gibson Cyberspace isn't a simulation -- well, it's been awhile since
I've read them -- but it is a representation of, and an interface to,
let's say 'the first life' or RL as we used to say. Both the matrix (I
always mean the Gibson Cyberspace by 'matrix'-I lost interest in The
Matrix, the movie, when Morpheus began babbling; I'd had enough of that
on usenet by then, and so have nothing to say about it)...both the
matrix and the metaverse were immersive.
Wasn't it the 'immersiveness' of cyberspace whether the matrix or the
metaverse that attracted us? Immersiveness is doable -- the good stuff
is used by militaries for example; I don't know about the wetware
connection, but I'd guess "probably" on some level of r&d. One reason to
look back to the recent past is to see what has been discarded as
undoable, though probably unprofitable is more accurate. Not just
technologies directly, but business plans based on technologies that
were only implicit, but not developed. The dot com bubble is a trove of
the discarded.
First thing to hove into view is the switch from analogue to digital tv,
and recently the rollout of 3d tv...native soil for the games industry.
I expect "interactive tv" to rise from the discard pile in a year or so.
> You know I am looking at some of my old writings in the archive, and
> it seems one of my predictions came true. That the movement would not
> always be counter-cultural but eventually assimilated into the
> mainstream culture. The "cyber" prefix is no longer outside, its no
> longer new, its no longer a commercial gimmick, but as you say its
> something politicians can say with a straight face, and even more
> telling have the common constitutant actually comprehend easily just
> what is being talked about.
I think that is accurate, yes.
> : I don't see to strong a connection between Gibson's cyberspace and VR
> : simulations on the WWW. Maybe it's time to go back to origins. That
> : seems to be a necessary step in understanding paradigm-shifting eras. To
> : go back in the mainline of cyberpunk ("proto-cyberpunk"?) prior to
> : computers being the model, back when the net referred to landlines,
> : simply to gain perspective and perhaps break the spell of the computer.
> : It may be that the networked computer model is inhibiting our
> : imaginations. The Ono Sendai was not a personal computer.
> Hmm I guess you are right. The Ono Sendai was a modem, the processing
> being done by the mind, and interaction taking place on the cloud.
> Though I am certain Gibson did not think in those terms or really the
> partical tech at all, in literature cyberspace is metaphor. And this
> can be extended to all intercation with digital devices, that it all
> operates and interacts on the level of metaphor. The metaphor has
> become more nuanced since we bagan this journey. Command lines always
> seemed to me more direct, but these days after decades of use I am
> just as comfortable with the metaphor of a "desktop" and even further
> the whole metaphor of a simulated reality, yet being who I am, I can
> still peer beyond the screen and see the underlying ones and zeros.
> Well not so much these days, but yet another metaphor of higher level
> languages. Its been a while since I have "coded to the metal" but I
> like to think the concepts are still there.
It's been nearly 20 years since I've used Devpac Assembler, or Turbo
Silver/Imagine. I don't think I've been happy using any computer but an
Amiga 8-) ah, well. hehe. Memory management? Feh. Why slow things down?
My linux box is a LAMP server, with bits 'n bobs of kde and gnome, and
running good old WindowMaker. Still, for news its tin or trn on the
console. Nothing works better for it.
Reading your reply to Poly...Steampunk is of interest, but my approach
has been via the hauntological which tends to plop me down in the
Gernsback continuum rather than Victoriana.
The Rancho I don't think of as vr. I don't know how to characterize it.
It is not based on anything. There was no collaboration and no
discussion about it I'm aware of. At the time it began, I only knew mpa
in RL, nesta and Poly in email. Most of the Rancheros were unknown to me
and I think to those above, such as Sebastian, Starknight. None of us
knew who would write Rancho or what they would write. Besides the
articles in the Rancho archive, there are probably as many articles with
Rancho commentary in discussion posts. So, close to a thousand articles
altogether, I'd guess. I sometimes come across articles I have no memory
of having read before, such as Jenancy's Apocalypso Diner which seems to
intersect the Rancho...I think I can find Jenancy...hmm.
Poly says you could write Rancho if you could see it. Omar couldn't see
it and became fussed because so many posters "flocked" to those "silly
fictions". Even dick@aol wrote Rancho 8-) sigh.
How and why did so many people with no association except they posted to
altcp see the same thing? Dunno.
Sourcerer
>I sometimes come across articles I have no memory
> of having read before, such as Jenancy's Apocalypso Diner which seems to
> intersect the Rancho...I think I can find Jenancy...hmm.
Jennacy. I recall Jen was a tad bit sensitive about getting her name
right. Sorry, Jen 8-)
Jennacy.
Johnny Fusion =11811=
: Johnny Fusion =11811= <jfu...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
:> Sourcerer <vag...@inanna.eanna.net> wrote:
:>
:> <rm>
:> : <rm>
:> :
<rm>
:> Who knows maybe when we get to the point of using our wetware to
:> directly interface with data in full duplex (inplants and trodes are
:> what I consder half-duplex communication) it may look more like
:> Gibson's idea. Geometries and the like. But I have a feeling that it
:> will be more simulation and less abstract reality.
:
: The Gibson Cyberspace isn't a simulation -- well, it's been awhile since
: I've read them -- but it is a representation of, and an interface to,
: let's say 'the first life' or RL as we used to say. Both the matrix (I
: always mean the Gibson Cyberspace by 'matrix'-I lost interest in The
: Matrix, the movie, when Morpheus began babbling; I'd had enough of that
: on usenet by then, and so have nothing to say about it)...both the
: matrix and the metaverse were immersive.
:
: Wasn't it the 'immersiveness' of cyberspace whether the matrix or the
: metaverse that attracted us? Immersiveness is doable -- the good stuff
: is used by militaries for example; I don't know about the wetware
: connection, but I'd guess "probably" on some level of r&d. One reason to
: look back to the recent past is to see what has been discarded as
: undoable, though probably unprofitable is more accurate. Not just
: technologies directly, but business plans based on technologies that
: were only implicit, but not developed. The dot com bubble is a trove of
: the discarded.
I am not sure if it is the immersiveness that attracted me to gibsonspace
and the metaverse, but more the direct interaction with data and processes
of the digital domain. As an old school hacker and zen programmer
programming was a way to "commune" with the computer. Especially in
assembly language programming the connection I had to the machine, the
processor and the memory could be described as "intimate".
I don't think its the immersiveness its the intimacy, where the division
between self and the technology becomes blurred. With implants, with
direct neural connection, we don't just blur the line, we erase it.
It almost is not like interfaces enable us to connect to the technology,
but are a prophylatic seperating us from the bits we want to directly
interact with. Immersiveness is another tool to get us there. By engaging
the senses we use the natural biological inputs of eyes and ears and for
some daring souls, touch. All sensation happens in the mind and
immersiveness is a way to communicate more fully to that mind.
<rm>
: Reading your reply to Poly...Steampunk is of interest, but my approach
: has been via the hauntological which tends to plop me down in the
: Gernsback continuum rather than Victoriana.
Steam may have been a reaction to Cyber. Not sure. Its funny that my
involvement with that subculture came via the virtual world a "cyber"
technology. But my brand of Steampunk is more Diamond Age and less HG
Wells. A lot of the stuff carries over including the love of gadgets and
goggles.
:
: The Rancho I don't think of as vr. I don't know how to characterize it.
: It is not based on anything. There was no collaboration and no
: discussion about it I'm aware of. At the time it began, I only knew mpa
: in RL, nesta and Poly in email. Most of the Rancheros were unknown to me
: and I think to those above, such as Sebastian, Starknight. None of us
: knew who would write Rancho or what they would write. Besides the
: articles in the Rancho archive, there are probably as many articles with
: Rancho commentary in discussion posts. So, close to a thousand articles
: altogether, I'd guess. I sometimes come across articles I have no memory
: of having read before, such as Jenancy's Apocalypso Diner which seems to
: intersect the Rancho...I think I can find Jenancy...hmm.
I dunno if rancho is Virtual Reality (yet Oh Poly, join .mpa and I in
Second Life, build it!) but it definatly is SHARED reality.
:
: Poly says you could write Rancho if you could see it. Omar couldn't see
: it and became fussed because so many posters "flocked" to those "silly
: fictions". Even dick@aol wrote Rancho 8-) sigh.
I don't think I wrote much Rancho at all. Though I did "appear" in other's
posts. But yeah I participated. I think I had a room on the second
floor.. can I have it back? Better yet can I move into the attic?
: How and why did so many people with no association except they posted to
: altcp see the same thing? Dunno.
shared reality through text. But really that was so 20th Century. Shared
reality in this century is built of prims.
Sourcerer
> Sourcerer <vag...@inanna.eanna.net> wrote:
> : Johnny Fusion =11811= <jfu...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> :> Sourcerer <vag...@inanna.eanna.net> wrote:
<rm>
> : Wasn't it the 'immersiveness' of cyberspace whether the matrix or the
> : metaverse that attracted us? Immersiveness is doable -- the good stuff
> : is used by militaries for example; I don't know about the wetware
> : connection, but I'd guess "probably" on some level of r&d. One reason to
> : look back to the recent past is to see what has been discarded as
> : undoable, though probably unprofitable is more accurate. Not just
> : technologies directly, but business plans based on technologies that
> : were only implicit, but not developed. The dot com bubble is a trove of
> : the discarded.
>
> I am not sure if it is the immersiveness that attracted me to gibsonspace
> and the metaverse, but more the direct interaction with data and processes
> of the digital domain. As an old school hacker and zen programmer
> programming was a way to "commune" with the computer. Especially in
> assembly language programming the connection I had to the machine, the
> processor and the memory could be described as "intimate".
The Amiga had lethal flaws in concept, ntsc/pal display being major, for
example, but at the time every other platform seemed retarded by
comparison. With the graphic web available, I got a 386dx and Slackware.
My job required attention to text and language and I got personally
interested in that. The unix utilities were excellent tools for text. I
think by our time on altcp, I'd lost interest in computers-in-themselves.
> I don't think its the immersiveness its the intimacy,
I think they imply each other.
> where the division
> between self and the technology becomes blurred. With implants, with
> direct neural connection, we don't just blur the line, we erase it.
I just want to see for myself whether it is erased or not, what it feels
like...kinda like Mr Toad and motorcars.
> It almost is not like interfaces enable us to connect to the technology,
> but are a prophylatic seperating us from the bits we want to directly
> interact with. Immersiveness is another tool to get us there. By engaging
> the senses we use the natural biological inputs of eyes and ears and for
> some daring souls, touch. All sensation happens in the mind and
> immersiveness is a way to communicate more fully to that mind.
I used to have a sig quoting Brenda Laurel "No fucking interface!" (I
can't find what the quote is from, though). We're all monkeys at heart;
we are fascinated by objects and want to manipulate them making
patterns, designs, meaning. Hand eye coordination is implicated in our
capacity to aquire language and our manipulation of the artefacts of
language as objects in our thoughts.
> : Reading your reply to Poly...Steampunk is of interest, but my approach
> : has been via the hauntological which tends to plop me down in the
> : Gernsback continuum rather than Victoriana.
>
> Steam may have been a reaction to Cyber. Not sure. Its funny that my
> involvement with that subculture came via the virtual world a "cyber"
> technology. But my brand of Steampunk is more Diamond Age and less HG
> Wells. A lot of the stuff carries over including the love of gadgets and
> goggles.
Funny odd, too, that Steam may be the most viable of cyberpunk variants,
and one that sometimes sails close to the more tech-oriented goth. In
the setup for a new counter or sub cultural disposition it seems a
requirement to skip over the immediate past and reach back. One expects
it of Youth(tm) (c'mon you kids, dammit, it's time), but it may be the
fate of us from old cp to somehow manage to skip over our own past while
at the same time staying with it.
The hauntological sense is that the past is present, and an actor in it.
It is present imo through the media of its era. On a timeline, the more
recent the past, the more it exists in the present because the media was
'denser' -- we can see and hear the 1920s moreso than the 1720s. The
past is not quite retro anymore. I think it is a profound cultural
phenomenon.
> I dunno if rancho is Virtual Reality (yet Oh Poly, join .mpa and I in
> Second Life, build it!) but it definatly is SHARED reality.
Michael is with Second Life? I expect some nice stagecraft there. I hope
Poly accepts your offer.
> : Poly says you could write Rancho if you could see it. Omar couldn't see
> : it and became fussed because so many posters "flocked" to those "silly
> : fictions". Even dick@aol wrote Rancho 8-) sigh.
>
> I don't think I wrote much Rancho at all. Though I did "appear" in other's
> posts. But yeah I participated. I think I had a room on the second
> floor.. can I have it back?
We ran out of room and had to build the Tmp Annex for new arrivals, but
second floor room assignments are for life, so it is still yours.
>Better yet can I move into the attic?
Ah...well, the witch's hat tower with the widow's walk is mine, and Lisa
and Sym took over the attic, but they haven't been around for awhile.
I'll tell Lisa you're interested in some attic space. Maybe you two
could work out a deal.
> : How and why did so many people with no association except they posted to
> : altcp see the same thing? Dunno.
>
> shared reality through text. But really that was so 20th Century. Shared
> reality in this century is built of prims.
It was so every century since the Sumerians, including the 19th (he said
to the Steampunker). Don't you write letters in Second Life? Isn't there
a postal service?
Sweet Poly
Sorry for the delayed response. I've been trying to get back to this
for days but other things kept getting in the way.
Johnny Fusion =11811= <jfu...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Sweet Poly <po...@ningal.eanna.net> wrote:
>
> <rm>
>
> : And I'd like to ask you about Second Life over tea.
> :
> : I've always been curious but I've never been there; never known
> : anyone who participates. What does it feel like? Is it like being
> : here at the Rancho, where the shared reality is maintained in text?
> : Or does it feel more "real"?
>
> It seems a bit more real to me, but where the Rancho on alt.cp is painted
> with text, if we were to migrate to Second Life it would be a shared
> reality painted with 3d interactive objects. The interaction is in
> real-time as oppossed to the time-shifted nature of USENET. Where here the Rancho
> is painted in our minds, in SL it would be painted on the screen.
>
> It really is Stephenson's Metaverse from _Snow Crash_ realized, but like I said
> with better physics.
After reading your post I did go to the Second Life website and poked
around. I didn't sign up for anything but did see the land grid and
enough graphics to get the idea. You're right, it does seem like the
Metaverse. Viewing the grid from high up was really interesting. Like
Google Earth, but pixilated.
<rm>
> I would love to chat more about this with you. Maybe even give you a tour of the
> grid. My SL name is ZenMondo Wormser. IF you do create an Avatar I suggesst you
> begin in the community gateway of Caledon. That is my "home base" of operations, a
> 19th Century Victorian Steampunk Themed Micronation. Yes Johnny Fusion the
> Cyberpunk has grown up to ZenMondo the Steampunk.
Thank you for the invitation! Wow. A guided tour from a local. That's an
opportunity I don't want to pass up.
I really busy with work and personal projects, but I'm going to pencil
in a tour with you on my calendar for some time in the not-too-distant
future.
Definitely before the spring planting season starts!
**
Poly is lying on the living room floor on a long scroll of white paper.
A small roomba, retrofitted with a crayon attached to its side with duct
tape, is drawing her outline on the paper.
Sourcerer finds her there just as the bot is finishing its outline. He
is used to seeing Poly doing some odd things, but this is completely
mystifying. Plus he wants the roomba.
"Um, dear, what are you doing?" he asks, as Poly rolls off the paper and
starts coloring inside the outline with her crayon set.
"It's my backup avatar for my tour of Second Life with Johnny", she
says. "They do graphics there, apparently, and I don't want to embarass
Johnny by just showing up with with a cheap avatar. God knows what the
good ones cost. So I thought I'd bring my own just in case. You never
know. It can't hurt to have a spare."
And she cut it out and rolled it up and tucked it into a little tube, to
go into the little pack of supplies she was putting together for the
Tour...
Best regards,