Dunce and Dunce Cap (Loooonng. very long)
Garry J. Vass
various references irretrievably agree to lay the etymology of this noun
and verb above the Hadrian wall. A true Gretna Greenie as it were.
Invariably this includes the OED, whose good brethren and sistren could
never be accused of Anglo-ethnocentricity. Indeed, it would 'ardly
hever 'appen.
Perish the thought...
Fair enough. So there was a Jock named, 'Duns' back in the 13th century
or there abouts whose philosophy gave us a new word in English. Duns,
Dunce, Dunce Cap, and so on... Certainly not the first time a Scot took
the fall.
And so now we have the word, 'dunce'. But let's get away from the
Shawnees for a moment. I want to focus on the cap. That's right, the
so-called 'dunce cap'.
The 'dunce cap'...
Tradition has it that the 'dunce cap' is a bream less conical section
with a letter 'D' on it.
Those who study such things will understand immediately that Brits take
the office of a cap seriously. The cap is a visible standard of status,
reckoning, and office: the nurse's cap, the sailor's cap, the beadle's
cap, the grenadier's cap, the bobby's cap, the Corps of Commissionaire's
cap, and so on and so forth.
Oh yes, dear Brits, one's cap is something we take quite seriously!
This would even include the wigs worn by those sad old fucks at Old
Bailey's. Let it be said in deference and deepest respect: our
forefathers designed a 'dunce cap' in tacit agreement to a lengthy
pedigree on this seat of Mars. This Island fortress built by nature
herself. This womb of kings. This dear, dear land. This England!
I have surfed the web throughout. I have Ferreted, Altavisted... I
have crawled and spiderred. Search engines buzzed through the night, to
no avail.
Why a bream less conical section? Why this peculiar design for a 'dunce
cap'? The only other conical sections we have in our lore are the
breamed hats worn by Merlin and various witches of the North. Which are
(as the Brits say) 'ass about face' to the meaning and spirit of
'dunce'...
Why does a 'dunce cap' look like that?
--
Garry J. Vass
Old Curmudgeon
<snip>
>
> Why does a 'dunce cap' look like that?
> --
> Garry J. Vass
Because it's an easy shape to construct?
--
Roy Archer
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/archer
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/archer/updates.html
-
Chris Croughton
<Ga...@gvass.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>various references irretrievably agree to lay the etymology of this noun
Why and from what did you wish to retrieve it?
>Tradition has it that the 'dunce cap' is a bream less conical section
>with a letter 'D' on it.
A bream is a fish, why one would be less conical than another escapes
me. Or perhaps you mean 'brimless', having no brim.
>Why a bream less conical section? Why this peculiar design for a 'dunce
>cap'? The only other conical sections we have in our lore are the
>breamed hats worn by Merlin and various witches of the North. Which are
>(as the Brits say) 'ass about face' to the meaning and spirit of
>'dunce'...
Er, no, the Americans say "ass about face", Brits say "arse about face".
Why not that shape? It's easy to make, and I've only heard of it being
used at school, made usually on the spot out of a rolled piece of paper.
Any other type of headwear is more difficult to make, or at least more
tedious, than rolling a piece of paper into a cone and sticking it
together along one edge.
Where, for that matter, did the 'traditional' witches hats come from
(and they do have a brim, often quite a wide one)?
(By the way, it's not a "conical section", it's a cone. A conical (more
commonly conic section) is the intersection of a cone and a plane, the
angle of which creates curves such as ellipses (and the special case of
an ellipse, a circle), parabolae and hyperbolae.)
Chris C
Mike Fleming
<Ga...@gvass.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Why a bream less conical section? Why this peculiar design for a 'dunce
> cap'? The only other conical sections we have in our lore are the
> breamed hats worn by Merlin and various witches of the North.
Well, who wants to wear a fish on their head, after all?
How about: it can be constructed in seconds with a sheet of foolscap
(hmmm, fool's cap, hmmm) and some sticky-back plastic.
--
Mike Fleming
Garry J. Vass
<ch...@keris.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>A bream is a fish, why one would be less conical than another escapes
>me. Or perhaps you mean 'brimless', having no brim.
>
HAR! 'A bream'! I get the dunce cap for that one! Imagine a bream-
less cap... What a hoot!
>
>Er, no, the Americans say "ass about face", Brits say "arse about face".
>
The Americans wouldn't say 'ass about face', but rather 'bass-ackwards'
or 'ass-backwards', depending upon one's level of comfort with one's
audience.
>
>Where, for that matter, did the 'traditional' witches hats come from
>(and they do have a brim, often quite a wide one)?
>
This is an interesting question also. Presumably a witch isn't pressed
for time like the school-mar'm, and can fashion any sort of hat that
suits her whim. While I can think of reasons for a chef's hat being
like it is, or a deerstalker, or a cowboy hat, or even the helmets worn
by the House Guards, I can't for the life of me think a good reason for
witch's hat being shaped as a cone. Perhaps some whimsical medieval
painting from antiquity that folks just copied.
Odd that the dunce's and witch's hat are related in that way...
>(By the way, it's not a "conical section", it's a cone. A conical (more
>commonly conic section) is the intersection of a cone and a plane, the
Oh but a cone is a solid.
--
Garry J. Vass
Chris Croughton
<Ga...@gvass.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>HAR! 'A bream'! I get the dunce cap for that one! Imagine a bream-
>less cap... What a hoot!
I want to see a bream plus cap <g>...
>The Americans wouldn't say 'ass about face', but rather 'bass-ackwards'
>or 'ass-backwards', depending upon one's level of comfort with one's
>audience.
It might be a command to a donkey in the Army: "Ass, About Face!" <g>.
>This is an interesting question also. Presumably a witch isn't pressed
>for time like the school-mar'm, and can fashion any sort of hat that
>suits her whim. While I can think of reasons for a chef's hat being
>like it is, or a deerstalker, or a cowboy hat, or even the helmets worn
>by the House Guards, I can't for the life of me think a good reason for
>witch's hat being shaped as a cone. Perhaps some whimsical medieval
>painting from antiquity that folks just copied.
I suspect that's the most likely, from reports of witch trials etc. most
of them were bare-headed most of the time (which was more 'proof' of
their wickedness, because women should have their heads covered).
>Odd that the dunce's and witch's hat are related in that way...
Indeed.
>Oh but a cone is a solid.
Not always - COED 9ed 1995 has as def. 2 "a thing of similar shape,
solid or hollow", and conic sections generally describe the curve not
the area inside it...
Chris C
Red Valerian
wrote:
>>This is an interesting question also. Presumably a witch isn't pressed
>>for time like the school-mar'm, and can fashion any sort of hat that
>>suits her whim. While I can think of reasons for a chef's hat being
>>like it is, or a deerstalker, or a cowboy hat, or even the helmets worn
>>by the House Guards, I can't for the life of me think a good reason for
>>witch's hat being shaped as a cone. Perhaps some whimsical medieval
>>painting from antiquity that folks just copied.
>
During the Spanish Inquisition, those accused by the auto da fe had
to wear the sanbenito - a yellow garment with one or two diagonal
crosses imposed on it. Another aspect of their public humiliation was
described by an English witness in 1748 as follows:
"At Eight O'clock the Procession began, in like Manner as the Day
before....there came twelve Men and Women with Ropes about their Necks
and Torches in their Hands, with Pasteboard Caps three Feet high, on
which their Crimes were written or represented in different Manners."
Several of Goya's paintings show clear examples of these tall pointed
caps which look exactly like dunce's caps to a modern eye.
Perhaps the traditional representation of a witch's tall pointed hat
was borrowed and adapted from the headgear worn by those convicted of
heresy? Just guessing here, as I'm no historian - but it seems likely
to me.
Those interested might like to pay a visit to this site to see Goya's
painting of the hats for themselves.
http://www.ricks.edu/Ricks/Employee/DavisR/Art/Goya,%20The%20Inquisition.JPG
Red
Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
>Your mention of paintings reminded me of something.
>
>During the Spanish Inquisition, those accused by the auto da fe had
>to wear the sanbenito - a yellow garment with one or two diagonal
>crosses imposed on it. Another aspect of their public humiliation was
>described by an English witness in 1748 as follows:
>
>"At Eight O'clock the Procession began, in like Manner as the Day
>before....there came twelve Men and Women with Ropes about their Necks
>and Torches in their Hands, with Pasteboard Caps three Feet high, on
>which their Crimes were written or represented in different Manners."
>
>Several of Goya's paintings show clear examples of these tall pointed
>caps which look exactly like dunce's caps to a modern eye.
>
>Perhaps the traditional representation of a witch's tall pointed hat
>was borrowed and adapted from the headgear worn by those convicted of
>heresy? Just guessing here, as I'm no historian - but it seems likely
>to me.
>
>Those interested might like to pay a visit to this site to see Goya's
>painting of the hats for themselves.
>
>http://www.ricks.edu/Ricks/Employee/DavisR/Art/Goya,%20The%20Inquisition.JPG
>
>Red
Those with a little interest in European culture, witchess, gods,
and so should read the book : The White Goddess, Robert Graves.
BTW, The french Inquisition was by far more cruel (and it killed
more people than the Spanish one). The Spanish one is perhaps
more famous, because of the Spanish Empire of the XVI, mid XVII
centuries. It'd be worth a heavy discussion here about how
much Spain has influenced English culture. Two facts:
- Elizabeth I and some previous monarchs created the English
Navy because they were *scared* of Portuguese and Spanish (Castillian
navy).
- A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
lack of vocabulary.
Why do they hide this influence ?
--
Manolo
Old Curmudgeon
I don't think there's ever been any attempt to hide or deny the influence of other languages on English. It's what helps make it so rich. Browsing through a copy of Hobson-Jobson can be quite illuminating.
Donna Richoux
> - A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
> a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
> lack of vocabulary.
>
> Why do they hide this influence ?
Can you provide any evidence to support your claims? "Seems to have" is
pretty vague. I think everyone here in a.u.e has, on occasion, failed to
see a "cf" or "akin to" in an etymological explanation and has thought
that one word was descended from another when actually they were distant
cousins. I'm not saying you've made that mistake, but it is conceivable.
And the evidence that this knowledge is well known to lexicographers and
deliberately kept out of dictionaries because of anti-Spanish prejudice?
You may be right, but you really don't give us enough to be convincing.
--
Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
a1a5...@sprint.ca
wrote:
>Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <th...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>> - A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
>> a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
>> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
>> lack of vocabulary.
>>
Sausage.
>> Why do they hide this influence ?
>
>Can you provide any evidence to support your claims? "Seems to have" is
>pretty vague. I think everyone here in a.u.e has, on occasion, failed to
>see a "cf" or "akin to" in an etymological explanation and has thought
>that one word was descended from another when actually they were distant
>cousins. I'm not saying you've made that mistake, but it is conceivable.
>
>And the evidence that this knowledge is well known to lexicographers and
>deliberately kept out of dictionaries because of anti-Spanish prejudice?
>
>You may be right, but you really don't give us enough to be convincing.
>
>--
>Best wishes --- Donna Richoux
>
Anyone with access to the OED knows he does not have to. The word is
indeed explored and the "Perhaps" derivation from "lump" seems to me
to be a good deal less satisfactory than his -- as obliquely may be
gathered from the OED entry (which marks the loncha derivation as
'curious', this in spite of the word's first appearance during the
time of Spain's greatest linguistic incursions into English, at least
before the recent and beguiling influence of her erstwhile colonies).
Geoff Butler
>Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <th...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>> - A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
>> a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
>> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
>> lack of vocabulary.
>>
>
>Can you provide any evidence to support your claims? "Seems to have" is
>pretty vague. I think everyone here in a.u.e has, on occasion, failed to
>see a "cf" or "akin to" in an etymological explanation and has thought
>that one word was descended from another when actually they were distant
>cousins. I'm not saying you've made that mistake, but it is conceivable.
>
>And the evidence that this knowledge is well known to lexicographers and
>deliberately kept out of dictionaries because of anti-Spanish prejudice?
Disproof: it is indeed well-known to the lexicographers at the New Ox
Dic of English, but they included the text "possibly ... from SP lonja,
slice", so they can't possibly have deliberately kept it out.
-ler
leo
<tr...@euronet.nl> writes
>Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <th...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>> - A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
>> a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
>> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
>> lack of vocabulary.
>>
>> Why do they hide this influence ?
>
>Can you provide any evidence to support your claims? "Seems to have" is
>pretty vague. I think everyone here in a.u.e has, on occasion, failed to
>see a "cf" or "akin to" in an etymological explanation and has thought
>that one word was descended from another when actually they were distant
>cousins. I'm not saying you've made that mistake, but it is conceivable.
>
>And the evidence that this knowledge is well known to lexicographers and
>deliberately kept out of dictionaries because of anti-Spanish prejudice?
>
Chambers Etymological gives 'lunch' as either altered from 'lump' or
from the Spanish 'lonja', a slice of ham. It's easy to make these
connections but very difficult to prove one way or another. Recently I
was brushing up my Spanish vocabulary, and I came across the word
'enojado', which means 'angry'. The sound is similar to the English word
'annoyed', and I wondered about a possible link. However, the reference
for the English word gives an Old French word anoier, possibly deriving
from the Latin 'in odio'. I don't have a Spanish etymological dictionary
to hand (shame), but it would be interesting to see if it comes from the
same root or even if it is perhaps imported from the English.
As a matter of interest, one page of this small dictionary gives the
following source languages :
Greek
Italian
Old French
Modern French
Latin
Old English
Swedish
Spanish
Arabic
Dutch
German
Hindustani
I would recommend to Manuel that he should do a little more research in
etymology.
--
leo
Manuel Gutierrez Algaba
>Manuel Gutierrez Algaba <th...@localhost.localdomain> wrote:
>
>> - A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
>> a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
>> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
>> lack of vocabulary.
>>
>> Why do they hide this influence ?
>
>Can you provide any evidence to support your claims? "Seems to have" is
>pretty vague. I think everyone here in a.u.e has, on occasion, failed to
>see a "cf" or "akin to" in an etymological explanation and has thought
>that one word was descended from another when actually they were distant
>cousins. I'm not saying you've made that mistake, but it is conceivable.
>
>And the evidence that this knowledge is well known to lexicographers and
>deliberately kept out of dictionaries because of anti-Spanish prejudice?
>
>You may be right, but you really don't give us enough to be convincing.
Sorry for being so vague. I know that problem of mistaking
etymologies, it's a rather common one. I read it somewhere, I'm
an
etymology aficionado ( it seems that this word exist in English, too).
But it's important to recall a broader point of view of many things,
it's scientific to have a broad poind of view.
Did you know how Iranians say brother?
Barozar.
Iranians and English speak a very similar language. It seems
incredible but true.
Barozar. Bradar. Bruder....
Sorry for so much vagueness, probably is the Internet effect. :)
--
Manolo
Ross Howard
> - A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
> a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
> lack of vocabulary.
>
> Why do they hide this influence ?
Easy. They still haven't forgiven you for Portillo.
Incidentally, as is perhaps to be expected, Don Manuel's
definition of *loncha* is rather more accurate than the Oxford
dons' quoted elsewhere in this thread. A *loncha* isn't just any
old slice -- you can't have a *loncha* of bread, for example --
but rather is limited to slices of deli/*charcutería*-type meat
products. In other words, a *loncha* is a "slice of a cold cut",
and so would seem to be a reasonable candidate as the origin of
"lunch".
Against the hypothesis, though, is the unfortunate fact that
*loncha* in Spanish has never been extended to cover the entire
midday meal (*almuerzo* or simply *la comida*/*comer*). Indeed,
the English word "lunch" is sometimes dragged into Spanish to
refer to a buffet reception of the type often offered at
weddings, christenings, first communions, etc. (Probably the only
case in the world of an English culinary term being borrowed by a
European language, rather than the other way round.) And that's
not all! Not even a plateful of cold cuts called anything
*loncha*-related in Spanish -- it's usually *entremeses* or *una
tabla de embutidos*.
Anyone for sherries?
Ross Howard
leo
<ro...@granada.net> writes
>the English word "lunch" is sometimes dragged into Spanish to
>refer to a buffet reception of the type often offered at
>weddings, christenings, first communions, etc. (Probably the only
>case in the world of an English culinary term being borrowed by a
>European language, rather than the other way round.)
How about 'sandwich'? Or even 'biftek'?
--
leo
ramelj
In French we commonly use words such as "rosbif", "cornbeef",
"hamburger", "pop corn" and "kepchup" (OK, these last three words are
probably American, not English - but they do belong to the English
language), "chips" (which means crisps, not chips, over the Channel),
"cake" (only for fruit-cake), "curry" (which we borrowed once it had
become English), "pudding" (but only to describe some varieties of
puddings), "haddock"; we borrowed custard, but not the name (we call it
"creme anglaise"). Bon appétit !
a1a5...@sprint.ca
>In article <38714829...@news.granada.net>, Ross Howard
><ro...@granada.net> writes
>>the English word "lunch" is sometimes dragged into Spanish to
>>refer to a buffet reception of the type often offered at
>>weddings, christenings, first communions, etc. (Probably the only
>>case in the world of an English culinary term being borrowed by a
>>European language, rather than the other way round.)
>
>How about 'sandwich'? Or even 'biftek'?
>
>
>
>--
>leo
And pudding. Buggered up of course.
Jens Brix Christiansen
> Indeed,
> the English word "lunch" is sometimes dragged into Spanish to
> refer to a buffet reception of the type often offered at
> weddings, christenings, first communions, etc. (Probably the only
> case in the world of an English culinary term being borrowed by a
> European language, rather than the other way round.)
Not at all. The word for "lunch" in Swedish is "lunch" - no
alternatives. Same story in Norwegian, but it is spelled "lunsj". And
"sandwich" appears in dozens of European languages, often with a local
variation on the spelling.
Chris Croughton
<ro...@granada.net> wrote:
>(Probably the only
>case in the world of an English culinary term being borrowed by a
>European language, rather than the other way round.)
Not at all. "Le pudding" (OK, it's what we call 'custard'), "le biftek"
(beef steak - pity they won't actually eat ours), and I've heard of "le
aggis" but that might have been a joke (Germans aren't allowed to sell
haggis, it's against their food regulations, I don't know whether the
French have it or if it was a reference to some imported from Scotland).
Chris C
Michael Cargal
>In article <38714829...@news.granada.net>, Ross Howard
><ro...@granada.net> writes
>>the English word "lunch" is sometimes dragged into Spanish to
>>refer to a buffet reception of the type often offered at
>>weddings, christenings, first communions, etc. (Probably the only
>>case in the world of an English culinary term being borrowed by a
>>European language, rather than the other way round.)
>
>How about 'sandwich'? Or even 'biftek'?
Le hotdog.
--
Michael Cargal car...@cts.com
Mike Oliver
> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
> lack of vocabulary.
No problem; when people need to refer to chorizo in English,
they call it "chorizo". Realistic examples of how the
word might be used: "I hate chorizo" or "Chorizo is
really really really disgusting". No cultural offense
intended; I know that Europeans feel the same way
about root beer, philistines that they are.
John O'Flaherty
>
> Recently I
> was brushing up my Spanish vocabulary, and I came across the word
> 'enojado', which means 'angry'. The sound is similar to the English word
> 'annoyed', and I wondered about a possible link. However, the reference
> for the English word gives an Old French word anoier, possibly deriving
> from the Latin 'in odio'. I don't have a Spanish etymological dictionary
> to hand (shame), but it would be interesting to see if it comes from the
> same root or even if it is perhaps imported from the English.
from the Diccionario de la Real Academia Española-
Del lat. vulg. inodiare, enfadar.
1. tr. Causar enojo. Ú. m. c. prnl.
2. [tr.]Molestar, desazonar.
3. prnl. fig. Alborotarse, enfurecerse. Se usa hablando de los vientos,
mares, etc.
from the AHD-
an·noy v. an·noyed, an·noy·ing, an·noys. --tr. 1. To cause slight
irritation to (another) by troublesome, often repeated acts. 2. To
harass or disturb by repeated attacks. --intr. To be annoying. [Middle
English anoien, from Old French anoier, ennuyer, from Vulgar Latin
*inodiare, to make odious, from Latin in odio, odious : in, in; see IN-2
+ odio, ablative of odium, hatred; see od- below.]
Both are from Latin inodiare, so you're guess is correct.
john
John O'Flaherty
> I don't have a Spanish etymological dictionary
> to hand (shame)
I forgot these on my first reply-
link to the online DRAE-
http://www.rae.es/nivel1/buscon/AUTORIDAD2.HTM
(it loads slowly because it's a graphic page of the 1992 edition of the
dictionary, but it has etymological info)
link to online dictionary of Anaya-
http://www.anaya.es/diccionario/diccionar.htm
(loads fast, but has only about 33,000 words, but still with etymology)
john
John Davies
<l...@lgab.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>> - A word as common as "lunch" seems to have its origin in "loncha"
>>> a "loncha" is a kind of slice of jamon or chorizo ( sorry,...)
>>> lack of vocabulary.
>>>
>>
>>pretty vague. I think everyone here in a.u.e has, on occasion, failed to
>>see a "cf" or "akin to" in an etymological explanation and has thought
>>that one word was descended from another when actually they were distant
>>cousins. I'm not saying you've made that mistake, but it is conceivable.
>>
>>And the evidence that this knowledge is well known to lexicographers and
>>deliberately kept out of dictionaries because of anti-Spanish prejudice?
>>
>>You may be right, but you really don't give us enough to be convincing.
>
>
>from the Spanish 'lonja', a slice of ham.
That's very curious, because my newly-acquired Chambers Dictionary of
Etymology [1] makes no mention of Spanish, but instead simply calls it a
shortened form of "luncheon", under which it has the following:
luncheon n. 1580 luncheon a thick piece, hunk; later,
a light meal (lunching, before 1652, and luncheon,
1706). The semantic development was probably in-
fluenced by north English lunch hunk of bread or
cheese; the morphological development may have
been by alteration of dialectal nuncheon light meal,
developed from Middle English nonechenche, non-
schench (1342), a compound of none NOON + schench
drink, from Old English scene, from scencan pour out.
Old English scencan is cognate with Old Frisian skenka
pour out, Old Saxon skenkian, Middle Dutch scencen
(modern Dutch schenken), and Old High German
skenken (modern German einschenken), from Proto-
Germanic *skankjanan draw off (liquor), formed from
*skankdn shinbone, SHANK (in Old English scanca), "a
hollow bone ... and hence a pipe, a pipe thrust into a
cask to tap it" (W.W. Skeat). -Iuncheonette n. 1924.
American English; formed from luncheon + -ette.
[1] Robert K Barnhart, ed: Chambers Dictionary of Etymology [prev. pub
by H W Wilson as the Barnhart dictionary of Etymology, 1988] Chambers,
1999. 0 550 14230 4
--
John Davies (jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk)
Lindsay Endell
>
> Did you know how Iranians say brother?
> Barozar.
>
> Iranians and English speak a very similar language. It seems
> incredible but true.
Well, I wouldn't say "very similar". But I would wonder whether
Iranian is an Indo-European language, in which case I would expect
there to be some words in English and Iranian with traceable links.
Linz
--
Oh, not really a pedant, I wouldn't say.
http://www.gofar.demon.co.uk/ - Issue 2.0 available now
Annabel Smyth
>Manuel Gutierrez Algaba wrote:
>
>> a chorizo is a long thing filled with pork meat, sorry for the
>> lack of vocabulary.
>
>No problem; when people need to refer to chorizo in English,
>they call it "chorizo". Realistic examples of how the
>word might be used: "I hate chorizo" or "Chorizo is
>really really really disgusting".
How about "Chorizo is really nice on pizza!"?
>No cultural offense
>intended; I know that Europeans feel the same way
>about root beer, philistines that they are.
Root beer is certainly not to my taste.
--
Annabel Smyth mailto:Ann...@amsmyth.demon.co.uk
http://www.amsmyth.demon.co.uk/
Website updated 5 December 1999
a1a5...@sprint.ca
Creative little chap, ain't he?
John O'Flaherty
>
> Manuel Gutierrez Algaba wrote:
> >
> > Barozar.
> >
> > Iranians and English speak a very similar language. It seems
> > incredible but true.
>
> Well, I wouldn't say "very similar". But I would wonder whether
> Iranian is an Indo-European language, in which case I would expect
> there to be some words in English and Iranian with traceable links.
from AHD-
I斟a搖i戢n
2. A branch of the Indo-European language family that includes Persian,
Kurdish, Pashto, and other languages of Iran, Afghanistan, and western
Pakistan.
john
leo
<jo...@redwoods.demon.co.uk> writes
>>
>>Chambers Etymological gives 'lunch' as either altered from 'lump' or
>>from the Spanish 'lonja', a slice of ham.
>
>Etymology [1] makes no mention of Spanish, but instead simply calls it a
>shortened form of "luncheon", under which it has the following:
>
>
> luncheon n. 1580 luncheon a thick piece, hunk; later,
<snip>
That's because you have the modern, inferior version :->
--
leo
leo
<ofla...@primary.net> writes
>
>from the Diccionario de la Real Academia Espańola-
>
>Del lat. vulg. inodiare, enfadar.
>1. tr. Causar enojo. Ú. m. c. prnl.
>2. [tr.]Molestar, desazonar.
>3. prnl. fig. Alborotarse, enfurecerse. Se usa hablando de los vientos,
>mares, etc.
>
>from the AHD-
>
> an·noy v. an·noyed, an·noy·ing, an·noys. --tr. 1. To cause slight
>irritation to (another) by troublesome, often repeated acts. 2. To
>harass or disturb by repeated attacks. --intr. To be annoying. [Middle
>English anoien, from Old French anoier, ennuyer, from Vulgar Latin
>*inodiare, to make odious, from Latin in odio, odious : in, in; see IN-2
>+ odio, ablative of odium, hatred; see od- below.]
>
>Both are from Latin inodiare, so you're guess is correct.
That's nice - not often that an etymological guess pays off
--
leo
Anandashankar Mazumdar
John O'Flaherty <ofla...@primary.net> wrote:
> Lindsay Endell wrote:
>> Manuel Gutierrez Algaba wrote:
>>> Iranians and English speak a very similar language. It seems
>>> incredible but true.
>> Well, I wouldn't say "very similar". But I would wonder
>> whether Iranian is an Indo-European language, in which case I
>> would expect there to be some words in English and Iranian
>> with traceable links.
Yes. Certainly not as similar as Spanish and Portuguese.
This reminds me of all the Indians and Germans I meet who like to
talk about how similar the German language is to Indo-Aryan
languages. (Uh, yeah. But in that respect, it's pretty much just
as close to English or French. More or less.) It's amazing what
power hearsay and popular mythology. (As well as confusion about
Aryan the linguistic term, Aryan the religious term, and Aryan
the Nazi term.)
> from AHD-
> I斟a搖i戢n
> 2. A branch of the Indo-European language family that includes
> Persian, Kurdish, Pashto, and other languages of Iran,
> Afghanistan, and western Pakistan.
I have recently come to learn that among the
Persian-speaking community, there is a controversy over whether,
when speaking English, the language should be referred to as
Persian or as Farsi. I found this article taking the
traditionalist position that "Farsi" is correct is Persian, but
"Persian" is correct when speaking English:
http://www.persepolis.com/discussions/_arts-literature/00000001.h
tm
Ananda
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Geoff Butler
>Manuel Gutierrez Algaba wrote:
>>
>> Did you know how Iranians say brother?
>> Barozar.
>>
>> incredible but true.
>
>Well, I wouldn't say "very similar". But I would wonder whether
>Iranian is an Indo-European language, in which case I would expect
>there to be some words in English and Iranian with traceable links.
Yes, Farsi is an I-E language written in Arabic script (cf Maltese,
which is an Arabic language written in Latin script).
-ler
Aaron J. Dinkin
<mazu...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I have recently come to learn that among the
> Persian-speaking community, there is a controversy over whether,
> when speaking English, the language should be referred to as
> Persian or as Farsi. I found this article taking the
> traditionalist position that "Farsi" is correct is Persian, but
> "Persian" is correct when speaking English:
> http://www.persepolis.com/discussions/_arts-literature/00000001.htm
Interesting, although I think this article is more or less nonsense. My
position is that the only bilingual native speaker of Farsi and English
that I know calls it Farsi in English, so I call it Farsi on that grounds.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Ken Butcher
Quite so. Back in the seventies I did a year of English teaching in a
language school in Cambridge, at a time when Iranians were by far the
largest national group in the school, and I don't think I heard the word
"Persian" once. They all called it "Farsi" when speaking English, as did
the Iranian husband of one of my colleagues.
Incidentally, he claimed that Farsi was comparatively easy for English-
speakers to learn (apart from the script, of course), because they were
both Indo-European languages that had moved away from inflexion to word-
order to indicate grammatical structure. I did learn a little, and I
noticed several little similarities. For instance, "daughter" was
something like "dochtar" and "better" was, I think, "behtar". (Though the
Farsi for "good" was something quite different from both "good" and
"behtar" - "xub", I think, where "x" is like "ch" in "loch". And the word
for "best" was, I think, "behtareen", formed regularly from "behtar".)
--
__ __ ___________
|_/ / _ |__) Ken Butcher
| \ \__| |__) ___________ kbut...@argonet.co.uk
Anandashankar Mazumdar
Ken Butcher <kbut...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <dinkin-ya0231800...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
> Aaron J. Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>> My position is that the only bilingual native speaker of Farsi and
>> English that I know calls it Farsi in English, so I call it Farsi on
>> that grounds.
> Quite so. Back in the seventies I did a year of English teaching in a
> language school in Cambridge, at a time when Iranians were by far the
> largest national group in the school, and I don't think I heard the
> word "Persian" once. They all called it "Farsi" when speaking English,
> as did the Iranian husband of one of my colleagues.
But I would argue that actual speakers of Persian should be the last
people to consider authorities on this. When someone speaks a language,
he or she often tends to use words in that language when speaking
English. I do the same thing myself. In other words, your Iranian
acquaintances were not just speaking English; they were speaking English
with the occasional Persian word, including (or maybe exclusively)
"Farsi," thrown in. Deciding what the proper English word is should be
purely a function of English, not of those who might be using words from
languages other than English.
I haven't put this well, but I hope you understand what I mean.
William Lieblich
I know what you mean, and I agree this issue should be decided as a
function of English. My experience, however, is that English speakers
who refer to the language call it "Farsi." That experience includes
working on cases before the Iran-United States Claims Tribunal in The
Hague, where the language spoken in Iran was routinely referred to as
"Farsi" by practically all English-speakers involved in the Tribunal's
work, as well as in the Tribunal's official documents.
You may consider that to be an unrepresentative situation, and argue
that the usage was an accommodation to the Iranians, but there it is.
Perhaps others know of usage in other contexts -- for example, in
universities (if any) where the language is taught or in communities
where there are significant numbers of Iranian-born residents.
--
Bill Lieblich
Aaron J. Dinkin
Lieblich) wrote:
[regarding "Persian" or "Farsi"]
> Perhaps others know of usage in other contexts -- for example, in
> universities (if any) where the language is taught or in communities
> where there are significant numbers of Iranian-born residents.
Harvard's Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations offers
courses in "modern literary and spoken Persian".
Then again, it also offers courses in Yiddish, so perhaps we shouldn't take
the NELC Department too seriously.
Karl Reinhardt
<amaz...@my-deja.com> wrotf:
>In article <497c6b22d...@argonet.co.uk>,
> Ken Butcher <kbut...@argonet.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <dinkin-ya0231800...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
>> Aaron J. Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>>> My position is that the only bilingual native speaker of Farsi and
>>> English that I know calls it Farsi in English, so I call it Farsi on
>>> that grounds.
> But I would argue that actual speakers of Persian should be the last
>people to consider authorities on this. When someone speaks a language,
>he or she often tends to use words in that language when speaking
>English.
You've got to be kidding! It is hardly a new idea to call the
Persian language Farsi. If some people don't, it may well be that
they do not know the name of the language.
The speakers of a language should be the first people to consider
authorities, not the last. Good grief! Just because someone says
that people from India speak "Indian" doesn't mean that this is an
informed label.
Eventually most of these problems get ironed out. We say "Japanese"
even though people from Japan may call it something different while
speaking their own language. By common agreement.
Karl
Richard Fontana
The only university catalogue I have within reach is one from
Columbia University, and its Department of Middle East and Asian
Languages and Cultures offers courses in "Persian". The introductory
course is described as "An introduction to the spoken and written
language of contemporary Iran".
Columbia's Yiddish courses are offered by the Department of
Germanic Languages and Literatures. However, that same department
offers courses in Finnish! (And, as at most [all?] American colleges
and universities, English is a separate department.)
Richard
Aaron J. Dinkin
rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard Fontana) wrote:
> Aaron J. Dinkin sez:
>
> >Harvard's Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations offers
> >courses in "modern literary and spoken Persian".
> >
> >Then again, it also offers courses in Yiddish, so perhaps we shouldn't take
> >the NELC Department too seriously.
>
> Columbia's Yiddish courses are offered by the Department of
> Germanic Languages and Literatures. However, that same department
> offers courses in Finnish! (And, as at most [all?] American colleges
> and universities, English is a separate department.)
Interesting. I can't find any reference at all in the Harvard course
catalog to courses in either Finnish or Hungarian, which surprises me.
Anandashankar Mazumdar
re...@hal-pc.org (Karl Reinhardt) wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 16:01:24 GMT, Anandashankar Mazumdar
> <amaz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>> In article <dinkin-ya0231800...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
>>> Aaron J. Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>>> My position is that the only bilingual native speaker of Farsi and
>>>> English that I know calls it Farsi in English, so I call it Farsi
>>>> on that grounds.
>> But I would argue that actual speakers of Persian should be the
>> last people to consider authorities on this. When someone speaks a
>> language, he or she often tends to use words in that language when
>> speaking English.
> You've got to be kidding!
No, I am most definitely not kidding.
> It is hardly a new idea to call the Persian language Farsi.
Perhaps, but that doesn't invalidate my point.
> If some people don't, it may well be that they do not know the name of
> the language.
Not true. Another of our correspondents has reported that the
departments at Harvard and Columbia that teach the language call it
"Persian" in English. These are presumably the native English speakers
who know most about Persian.
> The speakers of a language should be the first people to consider
> authorities, not the last. Good grief!
First of all, most languages are referred to in English by names
that are _not_ used by the native speakers of that language (e.g.,
French, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Italian, Polish, Danish,
Norwegian, Finnish, Swedish, Hungarian, Croatian, Greek, Arabic,
Russian, Bengali ... need I go on?). When deciding what the proper name
of a language is _in English_, what the native speakers call it is
extraneous data. The German language has many names -- among them,
German, Allemagne, Tedesco, Nemetski. None of these names are even close
to the name used by native speakers of German, but none of them are
wrong. They are all the proper name for German in the language in which
they are used.
> Just because someone says that people from India speak "Indian"
> doesn't mean that this is an informed label.
You're confusing the issue of knowing nothing with the issue of
knowing the wrong thing.
> Eventually most of these problems get ironed out. We say "Japanese"
> even though people from Japan may call it something different while
> speaking their own language. By common agreement.
By common agreement of educated native-English-speaking people, not
by common agreement of everyone.
Aaron J. Dinkin
<amaz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> The German language has many names -- among them, German, Allemagne, Tedesco,
> Nemetski. None of these names are even close to the name used by native
> speakers of German, but none of them are wrong.
Well, "Tedesco" is kinda close, a little bit.
P&D Schultz
>
> Harvard's Department of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations offers
> courses in "modern literary and spoken Persian".
The traditional English name of the language is Persian. Iranians, when
speaking English, nearly always call it Farsi, so that has worked its
way into English as a name for the same language as well.
However, some language people make a distinction between the two words,
using Persian for the language as a whole, and Farsi Persian, or Farsi,
for the variety centering on Tehran; as opposed to, for example, Dari
Persian, centering on Kabul.
//P. Schultz
Molly
Aaron J. Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> writes
word Allemanisch, which is a language spoken in the south of Germany -
more prevalent formerly, but I know people who can sing folk songs
in it. And in Allemanisch the word for Allemanisch is Allemanisch.
--
Molly (change nospam to orbs to email me)
Visit http://www.thehungersite.com for a totally free and simple way
to donate food to the hungry. (Go on, try it!)
Garry J. Vass
Aaron J. Dinkin <din...@fas.harvard.edu> writes
>In article <857lru$m93$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Anandashankar Mazumdar
><amaz...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> The German language has many names -- among them, German, Allemagne, Tedesco,
>> Nemetski. None of these names are even close to the name used by native
>> speakers of German, but none of them are wrong.
>
>Well, "Tedesco" is kinda close, a little bit.
>
Just as a side-note, despite its appearance in the DB, 'Tedesco' is
*not* the etymology of the retail chain called, 'Tesco'.
'Tesco' comes from a portmanteau (or acronym, whatever) of the names, T.
E. Stockton & Cohen, a pair of tea merchants in the early 20th century,
the late, great 20th century. Tescos, even Princess Di popped in for
this and that. More astonishing: I buy *all* my dust-bin-liners at
Tescos, wouldn't know what to do without them.
As an additional side-note, the 20th century was WayKool for its
production of acronyms and what-have-you... What else did the 20th
century give to the English language? Besides Hollywood, Orwell, Eliot,
and yada, yada, yada? The 20th century was WayKool!
What was the most significant thing the 20th century bestowed upon our
language, if not acceptance of the crass acronym?
obAUE: This is a Totally Official side-note.
obAUE2: This is also a *very* windward-side posting.
obUCLE: Conjecture -> Tesco's and M & S are the two retail operations
laying closest to the heart of the British mainstream subconsciousness.
who can offer denial? The only other retail contender striking from
Hell's heart to the very root of British-ness is the name, "Barbour",
which is, oddly enough, Scottish.
obACT: Why? Why again? and yet again why??
Thank you for your attention to this Totally Official side-note.
--
Garry J. Vass
Mike Oliver
"Garry J. Vass" wrote:
> Just as a side-note, despite its appearance in the DB, 'Tedesco' is
> *not* the etymology of the retail chain called, 'Tesco'.
A good thing too. "Tedesco" is Italian for "German"; "tesco",
for "skull".
Along the same lines -- "sega" literally means "saw", but
is used informally to mean "act of masturbation". The
electronic games company *does* have "Sega Planet" arcades
in Italy. I smile to imagine people's reactions when
those marquees went up.
Isabelle Depape
Molly a écrit :
> And Allemand (not Allemagne, which means Germany) comes from the
> word Allemanisch, which is a language spoken in the south of Germany -
> more prevalent formerly, but I know people who can sing folk songs
> in it. And in Allemanisch the word for Allemanisch is Allemanisch.
In proper French, it is spelled « allemand ». « Allemand » is the term used for a
German citizen.
Isabelle
Molly
<Ga...@gvass.demon.co.uk> writes
(snip)
>
>obUCLE: Conjecture -> Tesco's and M & S are the two retail operations
>laying closest to the heart of the British mainstream subconsciousness.
>who can offer denial?
/laying/lying/. Yet another of these transitive verbs masquerading as
intransitive. One of the features of the 20th century, perhaps? :-)
Bun Mui
Convenience in the Tube?
What will they think of next?
I can get my groceries now.
Comments?
Bun Mui
M.J.Powell
snip
>obUCLE: Conjecture -> Tesco's and M & S are the two retail operations
>laying closest to the heart of the British mainstream subconsciousness.
>who can offer denial? The only other retail contender striking from
>Hell's heart to the very root of British-ness is the name, "Barbour",
>which is, oddly enough, Scottish.
>
>obACT: Why? Why again? and yet again why??
Only by those who like poncing about in green gumboots.
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Chris Croughton
<hg...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
>Perhaps the traditional representation of a witch's tall pointed hat
>was borrowed and adapted from the headgear worn by those convicted of
>heresy? Just guessing here, as I'm no historian - but it seems likely
>to me.
It has been pointed out to me that Welsh national dress (for women) also
has high conical hats (with brims), usually black, and this is another
possibility for where witches' hats came from.
Either or both could be true...
Chris C
Chris Croughton
<oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote:
>No problem; when people need to refer to chorizo in English,
>they call it "chorizo". Realistic examples of how the
>word might be used: "I hate chorizo" or "Chorizo is
>really really really disgusting". No cultural offense
>intended; I know that Europeans feel the same way
>about root beer, philistines that they are.
Some Europeans, those who either couldn't get or didn't like Sasparilla
(and if anyone knows a source of that drink further south than
Lancashire, I'd be interested to know where, because I like it), made
from the same plant and a similar taste.
Chris C
Molly
<ch...@keris.demon.co.uk> writes
>
>It has been pointed out to me that Welsh national dress (for women) also
>has high conical hats (with brims), usually black, and this is another
>possibility for where witches' hats came from.
>
hat than a witch's one?
leo
<oli...@math.ucla.edu> writes
No worse than the employment agencies which used to advertise for
a 'Wang operator'
--
leo
JNugent
>Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote:
>>No problem; when people need to refer to chorizo in English,
>>they call it "chorizo". Realistic examples of how the
>>word might be used: "I hate chorizo" or "Chorizo is
>>really really really disgusting". No cultural offense
>>intended; I know that Europeans feel the same way
>>about root beer, philistines that they are.
Chorizo is available at the delicatessen counter of many UK supermarkets
(certainly at Safeway). It has been a stock item for sme years, so someone
must like it.
Now root beer - that's something else. After being teased by the phrase on
imported USA TV sit-coms for years, I was pleased (quite a few years ago) to
be able to sample root beer at a USA-influenced hamburger bar. It tasted of
severely-sweetened ginger. And you might think there's nothing wrong with
that, but so does that famous patent medicine "Beecham's Powder" (in fact
they taste very similar).
Because I had only ever had Beecham's Powder when suffering from colds and
flu, the taste immediately made me feel under the weather by association - I
felt feverish and weak and my head ached.
You can keep root beer.
>Some Europeans, those who either couldn't get or didn't like Sasparilla
>(and if anyone knows a source of that drink further south than
>Lancashire, I'd be interested to know where, because I like it), made
>from the same plant and a similar taste.
"Sarsaparilla" is how it is spelt on the bottles up Liverpool way. The drink
in those bottles is indistinguishable from another, similarly-coloured
liquid marketed in the region as "Dandelion and Burdock". Is there a
difference?
JNugent
>Chris Croughton <ch...@keris.demon.co.uk> writes
>>It has been pointed out to me that Welsh national dress (for women) also
>>has high conical hats (with brims), usually black, and this is another
>>possibility for where witches' hats came from.
>Isn't the Welsh hat a truncated cone, more like an American Pilgrim's
>hat than a witch's one?
It *is*, but rather taller than the usual article depicted in pictures of
the Pilgrims.
James Follett
Ga...@gvass.demon.co.uk "Garry J. Vass" writes:
>'Tesco' comes from a portmanteau (or acronym, whatever) of the names, T.
>E. Stockton & Cohen, a pair of tea merchants in the early 20th century,
>the late, great 20th century. Tescos, even Princess Di popped in for
>this and that. More astonishing: I buy *all* my dust-bin-liners at
>Tescos, wouldn't know what to do without them.
There is only one way to treat Tesco stores. Don disguise that
will fool your servants. Approach deli counter. Purchase one
kilo of their pork and apple sausages. Leave store as quickly
as possible because there can be no other reason for being there.
--
James Follett -- novelist http://www.davew.demon.co.uk
paul draper
Chris Croughton <ch...@keris.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:slrn87hr7k...@ccserver.keris.net...<SNIP>>
> Some Europeans, those who either couldn't get or didn't like Sasparilla
> (and if anyone knows a source of that drink further south than
> Lancashire, I'd be interested to know where, because I like it), made
> from the same plant and a similar taste.
>
The covered market in East Ham, London.
--
Paul Draper
0171 369 2754
Lindsay Endell
>
> Chorizo is available at the delicatessen counter of many UK supermarkets
> (certainly at Safeway). It has been a stock item for sme years, so someone
> must like it.
Me! Me!
>
> You can keep root beer.
No, no, give it to me!
I suspect this makes me weird.
Linz
--
Oh, not really a pedant, I wouldn't say.
http://www.gofar.demon.co.uk/ - Issue 2.0 available now
Chris Croughton
<mo...@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Isn't the Welsh hat a truncated cone, more like an American Pilgrim's
>hat than a witch's one?
Ones I've seen have been a full cone, but I can't say how 'authentic'
that is.
Chris C
Chris Croughton
<pdr...@baig.co.uk> wrote:
>The covered market in East Ham, London.
Thank you, I know people in that area...
Chris C