Thirsty? Pay up!
Tom Hand
This might be why. Coca-Cola posted the following page on their web site
recently to tell restaurant owners how to discourage free water in favor of
bottled water (hopefully Coke's own brand, Dasani). The page was removed
from the Coca-Cola web site the following day amid a swirl of controversy.
http://www.stayfreemagazine.org/public/coke.html
There is also a New York Times article about this at
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/20/technology/20COKE.html
Stuart Redford
"Tom Hand" <tro...@altavista.com> wrote:
My brother works for Coke in a small town in MO. He has been told in serious
terms that he is expected to not purchase any other brand of soda and his
family actually honors it. My brother actually told me that he couldn't be
seen drinking a Pepsi that was what was served where we were.
It amazed and appalled me.
-Stuart
K.D.
"Tom Hand" <tro...@altavista.com> wrote in message
news:cBlh7.1080$m5.11...@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
> Having trouble getting a glass of water in a restaurant lately?
>
> This might be why. Coca-Cola posted the following page on their web site
> recently to tell restaurant owners how to discourage free water in favor
of
> bottled water (hopefully Coke's own brand, Dasani).
I don't have a problem with this. Coca Cola is, after all, in the business
of promoting their products. As long as they aren't lying or holding a gun
to anyone's head, why shouldn't they promote their water? If patrons don't
like the strong-armed tactics of restaurants trying to encourage them to buy
bottled water, they can go elsewhere.
True story: I was in Salzburg, Austria with my husband and oldest son. We
had gone to a restaurant famous for apple strudel. We all ordered apple
strudel. My husband ordered coffee. I wanted just water. I explained to
the waitress that I didn't want bottled water, just tap water (I rarely pay
for bottled water, although I drink filtered water at home.)
Now, follow this (if you can). The waitress refused to bring me a glass of
tap water. At first, I thought it was because she was going to be a jerk by
forcing me to buy bottled water, but that was not the case. As we found out
after being tipped off by another American at the next table, my husband
could get a complimentary glass of tap water because he had purchased
coffee. Because I had not purchased coffee, I was SOL. Even though we had
all purchased apple strudel.
So, even though the waitress knew *I* was the one who wanted the water, and
even though *I* was clearly the one drinking the several glasses of water
which were bought, my husband had to request the water, and when it was
brought, the waitress would set the glass down in front of him. He would
give the water to me, I would drink it, then he would request a refill.
Restaurants can offer complimentary water or not - it's up to them. If this
is important to you, and a restaurant is not accommodating you, well, it's a
two-way door -- in and out.
-KD
Mrs. Pepper
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps he could pour his Pepsi into a Coke bottle?
Mrs. P
K.D.
"Stuart Redford" <stuart...@mac.com> wrote in message
> My brother works for Coke in a small town in MO. He has been told in
serious
> terms that he is expected to not purchase any other brand of soda and his
> family actually honors it. My brother actually told me that he couldn't be
> seen drinking a Pepsi that was what was served where we were.
>
> It amazed and appalled me.
That *is* pretty appalling. However, it is probably no worse than when your
company is chairing the United Way campaign and they strong-arm you to give.
If you are a "company" person, you will give. Otherwise, you can forget
advancement anytime soon.
Happened to me (the pressure to give) while working at Lawyers Coop
Publishing in Webster. I was young and inexperienced, so didn't quite know
what to do. I gave the minimum I could get away with. If I had to do it
over, I would tell them to stuff it, that I make my own decisions about
charitable contributions.
-KD
Tom Hand
"K.D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jPqh7.16030$D_1.179...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Not giving a thirsty person a glass of water is about as uncivilized as one
can get.
K.D.
one
> can get.
I agree, but we're talking about a private business which makes its living
off of providing food and drink to folks.
Should they also give a hungry person something complimentary to eat?
Is it any less civilized than a restaurant denying the use of its bathroom
to non-patrons?
If you don't like the restaurant, go elsewhere.
-KD
Tom Hand
So what if they are in business? A glass of water costs nothing. Not
dispensing one is a sign of inhumnanity. It has nothing to do with
business. We do have an obligation to treat our fellow human beings with
respect whether or not we are in business. There is no connection between
the two.
JmG
>|So what if they are in business? A glass of water costs nothing.
That's not true. A glass of water has costs that include, but may not be
limited to, the water (metered), the glass it is in needs to be had delivered
and when done, washed and stored and made ready for the next person. All of
that takes time and time is money.
With all of that said however, I agree with you. A restaurant that does not
provide drinking water for its patrons is pretty low in my book.
J
K.D.
"JmG" <jmg...@bestweb.net> wrote in message
news:o9pcotkgisueh73pk...@4ax.com...
> That's not true. A glass of water has costs that include, but may not be
> limited to, the water (metered), the glass it is in needs to be had
delivered
> and when done, washed and stored and made ready for the next person. All
of
> that takes time and time is money.
Sure, add to that breakage that happens from time to time, the time spent by
the patron sitting in the chair (wear and tear on the chair and table, need
to clean the table / counter after use) -- time that a paying customer could
be there.
In case all of you don't already know this, this free water and free
bathroom thing is decidedly American. Try going to Europe -- things are a
lot different there. Last year in Paris, I had to buy an overpriced cup of
coffee so I could use the bathroom in the shop -- I was unable to find a
public toilet (for which I would have had to pay anyway). To add to the
general indignity, the toilet was one of those flush (no pun intended) with
the floor jobbers.
Restaurants in Europe and elsewhere do not, as a matter of course, usually
bring water (much less ice water) to the table, although most will provide
tap water (for free) if you ask for it.
-KD
Bill Towne
than denying the use of a bathroom to people who don't order.
People who go to restaurants probably aren't exactly dying of thirst,
anyway. So, not giving them free water would hardly classify as
inhumane. If someone knocks on my door looking half dead, yeah, it
would be inhumane. If my next door neighbor asks from his front yard
while weeding, I wouldn't consider it inhumane because he's too lazy
to go inside his own house for some.
Coca Cola is a business -- asking businesses not to serve free water
is not evil. Most restaurants will continue to serve water free,
although it does cost them money. Actually, a glass of Coke is only
marginally more expensive than water, but it costs $1.50 more.
Some people believe that nothing can be had for free, but I guess some
others think otherwise.
--
Bill Towne
www.billtowne.com
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:32:32 GMT, "Tom Hand" <tro...@altavista.com>
wrote:
>
BJ Carr
However, we don't live in Europe, we live in America where there has always
been more of a sense of community than in the old world. Most of our
ancestors left Europe because of their traditional compartmentalized class
system and lack of shared common bonds among the populace which put all the
wealth and power in the hands of an elite, with little opportunity for the
average person.
Bill Towne
wrote:
>However, we don't live in Europe, we live in America where there has always
>been more of a sense of community than in the old world. Most of our
>ancestors left Europe because of their traditional compartmentalized class
>system and lack of shared common bonds among the populace which put all the
>wealth and power in the hands of an elite, with little opportunity for the
>average person.
Boy have things changed.
--
Bill Towne
www.billtowne.com
K.D.
"Bill Towne" <m...@home.com> wrote in message (material quoted from another
post)
>Not giving a thirsty person a glass of water is about as uncivilized as
one
>can get.
***Correction***
This line, above, was at the bottom of your post, after material which you
correctly quoted as having been written by me (two carats). This line,
however (one carat), was not written by me -- it was written by the person I
was responding to. That distinction was not made in the post, and unless
someone was paying attention to the carats, he might not know. I no longer
have that post on my computer, so I don't know who originally wrote this
line.
-KD
K.D.
"BJ Carr" <BJ_...@excite.com> wrote in message
>
> However, we don't live in Europe, we live in America where there has
always
> been more of a sense of community than in the old world.
Uh -- where did you come up with this? Have you spent much time living in
or travelling in Europe or other parts of the world? (I have.)
> Most of our
> ancestors left Europe because of their traditional compartmentalized class
> system and lack of shared common bonds among the populace which put all
the
> wealth and power in the hands of an elite, with little opportunity for the
> average person.
This is a stretch, if it is meant to account for the different customs
regarding serving water in restaurants. It couldn't possibly have to do
with economic factors and the supply and cost of various natural resources,
could it?
-KD
BJ Carr
>
> "BJ Carr" <BJ_...@excite.com> wrote in message
> >
> > However, we don't live in Europe, we live in America where there has
> always
> > been more of a sense of community than in the old world.
>
> Uh -- where did you come up with this? Have you spent much time living in
> or travelling in Europe or other parts of the world? (I have.)
Yep. Been at it for all my adult life, and I'm now 60. Can't think of
anyplace in the world I haven't been except for Antarctica, China (except
for Hong Kong), Indonesia, and parts of Africa (Have been to Kenya, Egypt.
South Africa, and Morocco though). Maybe I've missed a country or two in a
region, but I've been to every region.
> > Most of our
> > ancestors left Europe because of their traditional compartmentalized
class
> > system and lack of shared common bonds among the populace which put all
> the
> > wealth and power in the hands of an elite, with little opportunity for
the
> > average person.
>
> This is a stretch, if it is meant to account for the different customs
> regarding serving water in restaurants. It couldn't possibly have to do
> with economic factors and the supply and cost of various natural
resources,
> could it?
It's meant to account for the fact that most Europeans have never given a
shit about their fellow man, while we Americans have always considered
ourselves together in the same boat. It will be a sad day when America
starts emulating Europe, especially the Germanic and Balkan sphere of
European culture. The Prussianization of America would be a tragedy.
Tom Hand
>
>It will be a sad day when America
> starts emulating Europe, especially the Germanic and Balkan sphere of
> European culture. The Prussianization of America would be a tragedy.
>
Scratch a German or an Austrian, even a so-called liberal or left-wing one,
and you will usually find a fascist right under the skin. Look how the
German Greens morphed into a right of center party once they became part of
the power structure.
Bill Towne
below by sig file, so it sort of looks like it isn't there. Sorry
about that.
--
Bill Towne
Minneapolis, Minnesota
www.billtowne.com
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 17:57:02 GMT, "K.D." <kaye...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Mrs. Pepper
>On Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:14:13 GMT, "Tom Hand" <tro...@altavista.com> wrote:
>
>>|So what if they are in business? A glass of water costs nothing.
>
>That's not true. A glass of water has costs that include, but may not be
>limited to, the water (metered), the glass it is in needs to be had delivered
>and when done, washed and stored and made ready for the next person. All of
>that takes time and time is money.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eeeeeek! Arent we getting a little too technical here? You make it
sound like so much hard work is involved. Sheesh.........never
realized getting a glass of water took so much time/labor/money.
>
>With all of that said however, I agree with you. A restaurant that does not
>provide drinking water for its patrons is pretty low in my book.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrons or not................a glass of water is a glass of water.
Geesh........I cant believe society has gotten to a point where we are
going to contemplate over wether someone deserves a glass of water or
not due to a set of rules. Interesting, astonishing, absurd, and
yet, and little humorous.
Mrs. P
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmmm........Is this everywhere in Europe?
Mrs. P
Mrs. Pepper
>Coca Cola is a business -- asking businesses not to serve free water
>is not evil. Most restaurants will continue to serve water free,
>although it does cost them money. Actually, a glass of Coke is only
>marginally more expensive than water, but it costs $1.50 more.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I would agree that alot of water gets wasted if they automatically
pour it at a restauraunt. So why not just have it custom that the
wait person asks upon arrival if anyone would like water. Its free,
but your saving by asking instead of just pouring.
Mrs. P
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
> I no longer
>have that post on my computer, so I don't know who originally wrote this
>line.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
That would be our dear friend Tom. :-)
Mrs. P
BJ Carr
"Mrs. Pepper" <la...@budweiser.com> wrote in message
news:pm0eotolv7em5cjjj...@4ax.com...
That's what a New York law that was passed in the 1970's during a serious
drought says, but I don't know if it's still on the books. If it is most
restaurants don't seem to know about it because most of them still
automatically pour a glass of water when you are seated in spite of Coke's
efforts to the contrary.
Woodswun
>
>"Tom Hand" <tro...@altavista.com> wrote in message
>>
>> Not giving a thirsty person a glass of water is about as uncivilized as
>one
>> can get.
>
>I agree, but we're talking about a private business which makes its living
>off of providing food and drink to folks.
That's when you get up and leave, don't leave a tip on your way out the door,
and don't go back.
Woods
Tom Hand
"Woodswun" <wood...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bcXh7.356157$EF2.44...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com...
And tell everyone you know what a dump the joint is.
K.D.
door,
> and don't go back.
Exactly. It's not like there isn't competition among restaurants.
I see nothing wrong with a place of business promoting its products. The
"crime" in the post (promoting the sale of bottled water) which started this
all is no different from MD's asking "Do you want fries with that?" or a
restaurant asking if you have room for dessert at the end of the meal. If
you don't want those items, say no. If you want something else, say so.
-KD
Dave Hitt
>True story: I was in Salzburg, Austria with my husband and oldest son. We
>had gone to a restaurant famous for apple strudel. We all ordered apple
>strudel. My husband ordered coffee. I wanted just water. I explained to
>the waitress that I didn't want bottled water, just tap water (I rarely pay
>for bottled water, although I drink filtered water at home.)
>
>Now, follow this (if you can). The waitress refused to bring me a glass of
>tap water. At first, I thought it was because she was going to be a jerk by
>forcing me to buy bottled water, but that was not the case. As we found out
>after being tipped off by another American at the next table, my husband
>could get a complimentary glass of tap water because he had purchased
>coffee. Because I had not purchased coffee, I was SOL. Even though we had
>all purchased apple strudel.
>
>So, even though the waitress knew *I* was the one who wanted the water, and
>even though *I* was clearly the one drinking the several glasses of water
>which were bought, my husband had to request the water, and when it was
>brought, the waitress would set the glass down in front of him. He would
>give the water to me, I would drink it, then he would request a refill.
There's a restaurant that doesn't deserve to be in business. I hope
you left a nickel tip. A Canadian nickel. She didn't deserve any
more. (Never stiff them on a tip, always leave a tiny, insignificant
amount. It's communicates your displeasure much more effectively.)
It reminds me of the scene in Five Easy Pieces, where Jack Nickleson
just wants two pieces of toast.
Dupea: I'd like a plain omelette, no potatoes, tomatoes instead, a cup
of coffee, and wheat toast.
Waitress: (She points to the menu) No substitutions.
Dupea: What do you mean? You don't have any tomatoes?
Waitress: Only what's on the menu. You can have a number two - a plain
omelette. It comes with cottage fries and rolls.
Dupea: Yeah, I know what it comes with. But it's not what I want.
Waitress: Well, I'll come back when you make up your mind.
Dupea: Wait a minute. I have made up my mind. I'd like a plain
omelette, no potatoes on the plate, a cup of coffee, and a side order
of wheat toast.
Waitress: I'm sorry, we don't have any side orders of toast...an
English muffin or a coffee roll.
Dupea: What do you mean you don't make side orders of toast? You make
sandwiches, don't you?
Waitress: Would you like to talk to the manager?
Dupea: ...You've got bread and a toaster of some kind?
Waitress: I don't make the rules.
Dupea: OK, I'll make it as easy for you as I can. I'd like an
omelette, plain, and a chicken salad sandwich on wheat toast, no
mayonnaise, no butter, no lettuce. And a cup of coffee.
Waitress: A number two, chicken sal san, hold the butter, the lettuce
and the mayonnaise. And a cup of coffee. Anything else?
Dupea: Yeah. Now all you have to do is hold the chicken, bring me the
toast, give me a check for the chicken salad sandwich, and you haven't
broken any rules.
Waitress (spitefully): You want me to hold the chicken, huh?
Dupea: I want you to hold it between your knees.
Waitress (turning and telling him to look at the sign that says, "No
Substitutions") Do you see that sign, sir? Yes, you'll all have to
leave. I'm not taking any more of your smartness and sarcasm.
Dupea: You see this sign? (He sweeps all the water glasses and menus
off the table.)
>Restaurants can offer complimentary water or not - it's up to them. If this
>is important to you, and a restaurant is not accommodating you, well, it's a
>two-way door -- in and out.
I would have been out of that one in a heartbeat, and told them to
hold the strudel between their knees.
----
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way.
So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me. - Emo Phillips
---
hit...@spamblocker.bigfoot.com. (Remove "spamblocker" to reply.)
Dave Hitt
A glass of water costs them at least a quarter, between the ice,
washing the glass, etc. But refusing one to a customer is just plain
rude.
A decade or so ago I took the family to Scallions, a yuppie fern
restaurant in Saratoga. We usually start out with a round of water,
for two reasons: it's far less expensive that way, and we like water.
Things went downhill from there. As soon as we ordered water the
waitress copped an attitude. The overpriced food was mediocre at
best, and the ravioli one of my kids ordered tasted like feet. When
we complained we were condescendingly told that it was their special
recipe, and even though we sent it back they charged us for it.
I was furious. First I got mad, then I got even.
I was doing stand-up at the time, and worked out what became one of my
favorite routines. I'd talk about how horrible the restaurant was,
insulting everything I could about it, without ever mentioning the
name. Then I'd talk about how restaurant reviews were too
long-winded, and my solution was the two word restaurant review. I
then challenged the audience to figure out which restaurant I had been
talking about based on my two word reviews.
.
Wendy's: Cheap, tasty
Old Dater In: Excellent, overpriced
McDonalds: Styrofoam, Hamburgers
...and so on for about a minute. The punch line, which was a sound
effect that doesn't translate well to this medium, was
Scallions: Hawwwwwkk, Pitooey!
I don't know how many times I did that bit, but it was the one bit
that never failed to bring the house down. Shortly after I did it for
the first time, a gang of us were walking down the streets of Saratoga
at about 4 AM, and we passed Scallions. Someone said "Scallions" and
everyone, in perfect synchronization, said "Scallions! Hawwwwwwk,
Pitoey!"
It became a running joke in that circle of friends. Whenever anyone
mentioned the word, even if it had nothing to do with the restaurant
("Hey, there's on scallions on this salad!) everyone would shout
"Scallions!" and then make the sound of hawking up a lugie and
spitting. We also did it very loudly (working on the stage gives you
great voice projection) every time we walked by the restaurant,
particularly if there were people hovering around the entrance
debating if they should go in or not.
They are still in business, but it feels good to know that I have cost
them far more than what I was charged for their overpriced yuppie food
and condensing attitude.
Dave Hitt
Never stiff them on a tip, or they'll just write you off as a cheap
bastard.
Instead, leave them a tiny tip, a nickel or a dime, preferably
Canadian. That let's them know you think they should pursue other
career opportunities.
OTOH, recognizing that waiting tables is a difficult job, when you get
someone good you should over tip them, using the money you saved
stiffing the bad waiter.
Dave Hitt
I have been in places where there were small signs on the table
explaining that they didn't automatically bring water because there
was a shortage, but they'd be happy to bring it on request. That
seemed pretty reasonable.
K.D.
"Dave Hitt" <Boy....@Hate.spammers> wrote in message
>
> There's a restaurant that doesn't deserve to be in business. I hope
> you left a nickel tip. A Canadian nickel. She didn't deserve any
> more.
Maybe, maybe not. I questioned an American who had lived for many years in
Austria about what had happened. He could not verbalize the reason for why
this happened, other than to say it was just the way things were done over
there. It would have been very provincial / non-wordly / xenophobic of me
to hold the waitress to American standards, don't you think?
> It reminds me of the scene in Five Easy Pieces, where Jack Nickleson
> just wants two pieces of toast.
Yes, that's a damn funny scene!
-KD
Tom Hand
"Dave Hitt" <Boy....@Hate.spammers> wrote in message
> wood...@hotmail.com (Woodswun) wrote:
>
> >In article <qZrh7.7321$DJ7.86...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>, "K.D."
<kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>"Tom Hand" <tro...@altavista.com> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>> Not giving a thirsty person a glass of water is about as uncivilized
as
> >>one
> >>> can get.
> >>
> >>I agree, but we're talking about a private business which makes its
living
> >>off of providing food and drink to folks.
> >
> >That's when you get up and leave, don't leave a tip on your way out the
door,
> >and don't go back.
>
> Never stiff them on a tip, or they'll just write you off as a cheap
> bastard.
>
> Instead, leave them a tiny tip, a nickel or a dime, preferably
> Canadian. That let's them know you think they should pursue other
> career opportunities.
>
> OTOH, recognizing that waiting tables is a difficult job, when you get
> someone good you should over tip them, using the money you saved
> stiffing the bad waiter.
> ----
It's also important to distinguish between what the waiter/waitress has
control over and what they don't. Clearly they don't control the quality of
the food, but there are other things that are not their responsibility too.
If the service is slow it might be because there are not enough waiters on
duty, not that the ones who are there are slow. Or even when the staffing
is adequate it could be that the kitchen is slow, not the waitstaff. The
tip should be based on the server's performance and no other factors.
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Word of mouth does wonders.
Good story.
Mrs. P
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thats true Tom. Being in customer service for EVER, I am big on that
when it comes to others. Therefore, I always tip accordingly. If
the waitress did a bad job, she gets min. or worse. If the
waiter/waitress did a good job, they get more than the average.
We were in IHOP not too long ago. The waitress wasnt doing the best
of a job. She was taking forever. But pleasant enough. The food
sucked that day. We usually like it there. I left her a 25% tip.
Hubby looked at me and was like............"I dont get you. She wasnt
that great and the food sucked, yet you leave her a 25% tip". (I'm
the tipper. I dont let him tip because he tips the same no matter
what). I explained she wasnt that great because what he didnt notice
and I did is that she was the only waitress working. Therefore, had
to tend to everyone. Then I said it wasnt her fault the food sucked.
Every time a wait person does something I think is not good service, I
knock off a quarter off their tip. Next time, there goes another
quarter. So if by the end, I would normally tip say 4.00, but she
had 4 negatives, which means a buck..............her tip is now down
to 3.00, etc......................
Mrs. P
Bill
> bathroom thing is decidedly American. Try going to Europe -- things are a
> lot different there. Last year in Paris, I had to buy an overpriced cup of
> coffee so I could use the bathroom in the shop -- I was unable to find a
> public toilet (for which I would have had to pay anyway). To add to the
> general indignity, the toilet was one of those flush (no pun intended) with
> the floor jobbers.
>
> Restaurants in Europe and elsewhere do not, as a matter of course, usually
> bring water (much less ice water) to the table, although most will provide
> tap water (for free) if you ask for it.
>
> -KD
I've found various customs in various parts of Europe. I've traveled
in Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Austria and Hungary. In Belgium,
Holland and Denmark, I've found public restrooms to be widely
available, usually clean, and usually free. In Austria and Hungary,
you have to pay to enter and to receive a usually insufficient piece
of toilet paper. I did get into trouble in Maestricht, in
southeastern Netherlands. I used the bathroom at the train station.
On my way out, an old woman started yelling at me. I didn't know why,
and don't understand Dutch. I later learned that she was the person
who kept the restroom clean and I was supposed to tip her. And this
was after being told that in the Netherlands, you don't tip at
restaurants.
I don't recall problems with water. My trips to Denmark and Holland
both involved bicycling, so I was always looking for water.
Restaurants and cafe's were accommodating. On the other hand, I
generally purchased something when stopping in. And in the more rural
areas, the locals were a bit charmed to get a visit from Americans on
bicycles with our weird helmets.
I found Dutch coffee to be especially satisfying, and once had a
debate with a Dutch woman living in the U.S. I told her how much I
liked the Dutch coffee. She preferred the U.S. coffee which offers a
lower quality, but unlimited refills in so many places.
I did find Austria to have more "rules" than other places I visited.
And I've never been to France.
Bill
Sante Fe for a conference a few years back. If you think Saratoga
Springs has cornered the market on yuppie pretension, you've never
been to Sante Fe.
Sante Fe was the first place where I encountered "free range chickens"
on the menu. It instantly congured up an image of chickenboys riding
the range lassoing them little chickens.
Bill
What's the saying...that a good restaurant experience will yield 3 new
customers but a bad restaurant experience will turn away 10 potential
customers?
Tom Hand
"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:272503be.01082...@posting.google.com...
>
> I found Dutch coffee to be especially satisfying, and once had a
> debate with a Dutch woman living in the U.S. I told her how much I
> liked the Dutch coffee. She preferred the U.S. coffee which offers a
> lower quality, but unlimited refills in so many places.
>
Is Dutch coffee boiled like (ugh!) Scandinavian coffee. The only
consistently good coffee that I've found in Europe is in Italy and Spain.
K.D.
"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
> I've found various customs in various parts of Europe. I've traveled
> in Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Austria and Hungary. In Belgium,
> Holland and Denmark, I've found public restrooms to be widely
> available, usually clean, and usually free. In Austria and Hungary,
> you have to pay to enter and to receive a usually insufficient piece
> of toilet paper.
Oh, the quantity of TP in Hungary was no problem, if you don't mind it being
the texture of cheap, industrial paper towels. Whew -- that's rough!
Didn't you run across those unisex pay-per-view bathrooms with male
attendant? I think I ran across those in Holland, but maybe not.
Definitely in Vienna.
> I did get into trouble in Maestricht, in
> southeastern Netherlands. I used the bathroom at the train station.
> On my way out, an old woman started yelling at me. I didn't know why,
> and don't understand Dutch. I later learned that she was the person
> who kept the restroom clean and I was supposed to tip her. And this
> was after being told that in the Netherlands, you don't tip at
> restaurants.
Get your priorities straight.
> I did find Austria to have more "rules" than other places I visited.
> And I've never been to France.
Well, given that it is next to impossible to find a public toilet in Paris,
I find it interesting that Paris offers a tour of the city's sewer system.
BTW, it's actually interesting, if you like that sort of thing.
-KD
Bill
I don't believe it was. I've had Turkish coffee which is boiled. I
don't have a clear mamory of Danish coffee, which is Scandinavian.
Just that the Dutch stuff was very good and very smooth.
Bill
> "Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
>
> > I've found various customs in various parts of Europe. I've traveled
> > in Denmark, Holland, Belgium, Austria and Hungary. In Belgium,
> > Holland and Denmark, I've found public restrooms to be widely
> > available, usually clean, and usually free. In Austria and Hungary,
> > you have to pay to enter and to receive a usually insufficient piece
> > of toilet paper.
>
> Oh, the quantity of TP in Hungary was no problem, if you don't mind it being
> the texture of cheap, industrial paper towels. Whew -- that's rough!
>
> Didn't you run across those unisex pay-per-view bathrooms with male
> attendant? I think I ran across those in Holland, but maybe not.
> Definitely in Vienna.
Didn't run across that. But we were having dinner in a cafe in
Vienna. We were about to leave when my wife went to use the rest
room. While I was waiting, two women sat down at our table, which is
the custom....people see a group prepare to leave and they sit right
down.
My wife came back from the rest room and excitedly said "Bill...you
HAVE to check out the bathrooms." So I went. The toilet had a
mechanism that when flushed caused the seat to rotate 360 degrees
through a cleaning box of some sort. I thought it was pretty cool and
came out excited. The woman who had sat down seemed to understand
some English and must have thought we were absolute bumpkins.
Tom Hand
It's surpising to hear that good coffee exists in the land of Nescafe.
Bill
The state has a drought management plan which advises not serving
water in restaurants during drought emergencies. It doesn't save much
water. It's more for public information...to let people know that
yes, there is a drought and everyone needs to do their part.
Mandating not serving water (except upon request) would only be during
a more serious drought. The Departments of Health and Environmental
Conservation have the authority to make that order, but only based on
certain sets of drought parameters.
Individual water systems may have their own restrictions. New York
City does typically ban serving water in restaurants except upon
request during a drought.
Of course serving a glass of water does use more than the water in the
glass. The glass must be washed.
Mrs. Pepper
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then she should tell folks to stop watering the lawns and let nature
take its course.
Mrs. P
Allegra Boverman
: If you don't like the restaurant, go elsewhere.
that is what you should have done.
--
Allegra Boverman all...@cif.rochester.edu
"Elizabeth Taylor is alive and well and eating a taco."
Allegra Boverman
:>"JmG" <jmg...@bestweb.net> wrote in message
:>
:>> That's not true. A glass of water has costs that include, but may not be
:>> limited to, the water (metered), the glass it is in needs to be had
:>delivered
:>> and when done, washed and stored and made ready for the next person. All
:>of
:>> that takes time and time is money.
:>
:>Sure, add to that breakage that happens from time to time, the time spent by
:>the patron sitting in the chair (wear and tear on the chair and table, need
:>to clean the table / counter after use) -- time that a paying customer could
:>be there.
:>
:>In case all of you don't already know this, this free water and free
:>bathroom thing is decidedly American. Try going to Europe -- things are a
:>lot different there. Last year in Paris, I had to buy an overpriced cup of
:>public toilet (for which I would have had to pay anyway). To add to the
:>general indignity, the toilet was one of those flush (no pun intended) with
:>the floor jobbers.
:>
:>Restaurants in Europe and elsewhere do not, as a matter of course, usually
:>bring water (much less ice water) to the table, although most will provide
:>tap water (for free) if you ask for it.
all the better reason for one to carry one's own water where ever one goes.
it pays to be prepared for any eventuality, such as stingy restaurants.
by the way, when there was a drought at some points in New Jersey some
years back, restaurants i went to with my family did stop serving water
on the table as a standard procedure and you had to ask specifically for it.
so it does still happen in the U.S. sometimes, though in this case, the
reason was kind of reasonable.
K.D.
> HAVE to check out the bathrooms." So I went. The toilet had a
> mechanism that when flushed caused the seat to rotate 360 degrees
> through a cleaning box of some sort. I thought it was pretty cool and
> came out excited. The woman who had sat down seemed to understand
> some English and must have thought we were absolute bumpkins.
Foreign toilets can be very interesting. That recent time I was in Paris
and had to buy a cup of coffee to use the bathroom, when I saw the toilet in
the floor, I knew my daughter would have a fit over it, since she hadn't
ever seen one before. When you go to SE Asia, and that's all you see.
Let's see -- not sure where it was -- SE Asia or Malaysia -- not only was
the damn toilet in the floor, but to flush it, there was a spigot and bucket
over to the side -- you had to fill up the bucket with water and pour it
down the toilet. There was a mop there, as well, in case you splashed too
much water around.
Seriously, the toilet paper in Budapest was so "scratchy" that I brought a
sample home with me -- have it in the photo album with the photos and the
rest of the memorabilia to commemorate our trip there. The killer was, that
the bathroom was otherwise immaculate -- you know how they have the
heavy-duty, substantial stalls over there with REAL door knobs on them and
doors that go all the way to the floor like doors in your house. Very
clean, very nicely appointed, but with the scratchiest (unbleached and
brown, of course) toilet paper I had ever seen in my life.
-KD
Tom Hand
>
> Let's see -- not sure where it was -- SE Asia or Malaysia -- not only was
> the damn toilet in the floor, but to flush it, there was a spigot and
bucket
> over to the side -- you had to fill up the bucket with water and pour it
> down the toilet. There was a mop there, as well, in case you splashed too
> much water around.
Did they move Malaysia since I was last there? It was in Southeast Asia
then. Well, actually I was in Singapore, not Malaysia per se. Maybe they
are in two regions. ;o)
Tom Hand
> > Then she should tell folks to stop watering the lawns and let nature
> take its course.
>
> Mrs. P
>
The watering of lawns is one of the biggest wastes of water that exists. It
is political correctness in the extreme that says that not serving water,
and washing the glass, in a restaurant will somehow save any significant
amount of water when compared with the amount of water those same restaurant
customers are probably throwing away by watering their lawns at home. Like
Bill says, it is "educational." I prefer the word propaganda.
My favorite stupidity is those signs you see in front of houses in suburban
places like Guilderland and Clifton Park that say, "Private well." As if
somehow wasting water from a private well is not bad, like wasting water
from the public water system. It all comes out of the same aquifer.
Bill
> take its course.
>
> Mrs. P
I'm not certain who the "she" is you are referring to but, yes, lawn
watering is the biggest waste of water to a municipal water
system...and the easiest use to cut back. While newly seeded lawns do
need water, in mid summer, an unwatered lawn will merely go dormant,
to revive as soon as natural moisture is replenished. There are also
varieties of grass that are much more tolerant to drought than
typically used Kentucky bluegrass. And don't get me going about
ChemLawn type companies. They create lawns that remain dependent on
chemicals and constant watering. A few weeds and dandalions never
hurt anybody!
Bill
> "Mrs. Pepper" <la...@budweiser.com> wrote in message
> news:qn3lot8067t1bm64f...@4ax.com...
>
> > > Then she should tell folks to stop watering the lawns and let nature
> > take its course.
> >
> > Mrs. P
> >
>
> The watering of lawns is one of the biggest wastes of water that exists. It
> is political correctness in the extreme that says that not serving water,
> and washing the glass, in a restaurant will somehow save any significant
> amount of water when compared with the amount of water those same restaurant
> customers are probably throwing away by watering their lawns at home. Like
> Bill says, it is "educational." I prefer the word propaganda.
I think that's a bit extreme. Most people are oblivious to what it
takes to get water to their tap. If a table card at a restaurant
succeeds in informing some people that water is precious and should
not be wasted, I think it's information well spent.
> My favorite stupidity is those signs you see in front of houses in suburban
> places like Guilderland and Clifton Park that say, "Private well." As if
> somehow wasting water from a private well is not bad, like wasting water
> from the public water system. It all comes out of the same aquifer.
Yes and no. In some places, yes that's true. But some localities use
surface water from miles away. Others use water from deep aquifers
which are not directly connected to the surface aquifer. Still, in
general, I agree. Most lawn watering is wasteful. I'm particularly
irked by seeing automatic springklers running during a rainstorm, or
at noon.
Tom Hand
My examples, Guilderland and Clifton Park tap their aquifers, not surface
water for their public and semi-public systems.
I was reading an article in the Boston Globe a few days ago that said that
about a dozen communities near Boston have reached or exceeded the maximum
aquifer depletion allowed by federal and state law, and that 20 more
communities are expected to reach their limit within the next few years.
All the named communities get their water from wells rather than the Quaban
reservoir system used by Boston and many other towns.
What that means for them is that all development within the towns must come
to a halt unless they are able to hook up to the Boston water system or find
some other source of water. I found it interesting that engineers say the
main problem is too much pavement in parking lots and the like. The rain
water can't get to the aquifer and is diverted to storm sewers which end up
in the rivers and the ocean instead.
K.D.
"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
> chemicals and constant watering. A few weeds and dandalions never
> hurt anybody!
As an avid gardener but not an avid lawn-maintenance person, I can assure
you that less watering will result in fewer weeds as well.
-KD
Bill Towne
>A few weeds and dandalions never hurt anybody!
Thank goodness! If they did, I'd be in prison without any chance of
parole.
--
Bill "The Weed King" Towne
Minneapolis, Minnesota
www.billtowne.com
K.D.
"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in
>
> Yes and no. In some places, yes that's true. But some localities use
> surface water from miles away. Others use water from deep aquifers
> which are not directly connected to the surface aquifer. Still, in
> general, I agree. Most lawn watering is wasteful. I'm particularly
> irked by seeing automatic springklers running during a rainstorm, or
> at noon.
I don't have much of a lawn, but I do have a large flower garden and a
little vegetable garden. Mulching is very cost and time efficient, and I am
a big user of mulch. Spot watering is very labor- and time-intensive, but
saves water over using the sprinkler as it delivers water where it is needed
the most. I try to spot water when my garden is getting established in the
beginning of the season, but sometimes I simply don't have time and have to
resort to using the sprinkler.
If people paid a true fair-market price for water, in many locales there
would be less water wasted, as people would be more motivated to conserve.
-KD
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That may be true, but I dont feel jacking the price of water is a good
answer.
Why should I have to pay higher water bills because my neighbor
insisnt on watering their lawn to make it look oh so pretty.
Mrs. P
Mrs. Pepper
>Mrs. Pepper <la...@budweiser.com> wrote in message
>>
>> Then she should tell folks to stop watering the lawns and let nature
>> take its course.
>>
>> Mrs. P
>
>I'm not certain who the "she" is you are referring to but,
-----------------------------------------------------------------
LOL. I am not certain who she is either. Mother superior?
I just noticed a bit ago that I had typed that. I was wondering when
someone was going to ask.
Mrs. P
K.D.
"Mrs. Pepper" <la...@budweiser.com> wrote in message > answer.
>
> Why should I have to pay higher water bills because my neighbor
> insisnt on watering their lawn to make it look oh so pretty.
I'm not sure if this is going to be worth it, but you've made a leap that
doesn't even make sense.
The price of water should not be jacked up for any reason other than a
higher price would reflect the true cost of water. Neither you nor your
neighbor should pay artificially low prices for water.
Human nature being what it is, people tend to be less careful about things
they don't have to pay for or for which they don't pay enough. Those who
waste water (and you are undoubtedly one of them, although you don't want to
admit it - couldn't you turn that water down just a bit while showering, or
take a quicker shower?) will probably conserve more the more their wasteful
habits cost them.
Everyone thinks his own use of water is justified, and thinks his neighbor's
use of water is extravagant or foolhardy. I am not condoning the overuse of
water for lawns, but there is really not a single person here who probably
wants that prohibition applied consistently - that really wants the
aesthetic conditions that would result from restrictions on watering
ornamental landscaping and the like.
Shall I not water my flowers and vegetables? After all, I can buy
vegetables at the grocery store, and arguably my decision to have a
vegetable garden is just selfish and wasteful on my part. As most people
know, you rarely save money with a vegetable garden -- although the results
are healthful and delicious, it is more of a hobby than anything, and it is
certainly not a money-saving endeavor.
The flowers? Well, some folks like flowers, others like a green carpet of
lawn -- who's to say which is more justified? I'm really into this flower
gardening thing and am quite famous for my flower garden locally, so I know
of which I speak. Not everyone is going to choose to have as massive a
flower garden (as opposed to a lawn) as I do.
A flower garden is undoubtedly far more expensive than most lawns (for basic
supplies), not to mention probably more time-consuming, and might even
consume more water -- I don't know. Of course, you don't have to mow. But,
you do have to pull weeds, mulch (order a huge dump truck of mulch, and
choke when you see the bill), plant annuals and bulbs, transplant, and put
the garden to bed for the winter, which results in many, many lawn and leaf
bags of plant debris.
One year, I spent probably $600 on tulip bulbs, alone. Tulips!!!! Which
are essentially annuals. Think of the water, chemicals, and other resources
that went into the production of those tulips! Do we want to prohibit such
extravagance in the name of water conservation?
You might condemn your neighbor for using chemicals, fertilizers, and the
like to have his beautiful lawn, but I doubt a single neighbor or passer-by
has ever condemned me for the fertilizers, bug sprays, and water I use for
my flowers. As a matter of fact, I regularly have strangers stop to talk to
me while I'm in the yard working, or even come to my door to remark on and
question me about my flowers. It happened just yesterday -- a woman I had
never met came to the door, and she walked away with eight potted plants
(four black-eyed Susans and four mums) which I had rooted earlier this
season.
See, we have different priorities. I'm just lucky that I get more sympathy
and public support for mine than the ChemLawn guy does.
And, remember -- no long, hot showers while on the topic. That car can go
another week without washing. Don't run the dishwasher until it is
absolutely full to the brim, either!
-KD
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
>I'm not sure if this is going to be worth it, but you've made a leap that
>doesn't even make sense.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It doesnt? Sorry. I just feel raising water prices isnt going to
do a bit of good. Those that can pay it, still wont care.
>
>The price of water should not be jacked up for any reason other than a
>higher price would reflect the true cost of water.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you think that would stop people? I dont.
Neither you nor your
>neighbor should pay artificially low prices for water.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you know of the perfect water price? You know what is high and
what isnt?
>
>Human nature being what it is, people tend to be less careful about things
>they don't have to pay for or for which they don't pay enough. Those who
>waste water (and you are undoubtedly one of them,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We all do to some extent.
although you don't want to
>admit it
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Says who? I think I just did.
couldn't you turn that water down just a bit while showering, or
>take a quicker shower?) will probably conserve more the more their wasteful
>habits cost them.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excuse me deary, but open your mouth and insert your foot. I happen
to have a shower head that has this really neat button that I push to
turn the water OFF while lathering up, shaving, shampooing, etc. We
bought that for the sole purpose of conserving water. We also DO NOT
let the water run while brushing teeth. We also put a jug of water
in our toilet tank as to save on how much water our tank can hold.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all, I dont have a problem with one watering their flowers or
garden. I have a problem with those that leave those darn lawn
sprinklers going to keep that nice green lawn. Of course, everyone
wastes some water at times. But we could all do a little to help.
Just jacking the price of water isnt going to do that alone.
>And, remember -- no long, hot showers while on the topic. That car can go
>another week without washing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was supposed to wash my car?
Don't run the dishwasher until it is
>absolutely full to the brim, either!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Once again, a practice I always practice.
Mrs. P
David Lentz
irks me is the need to water sidewalks.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
K.D.
"David Lentz" <Ro...@signfile.net> wrote in message
news:3B8BD4EB...@signfile.net...
> I can accept in the New York State climate, watering lawns. What
> irks me is the need to water sidewalks.
Ain't that the truth? Getting a perfect watering pattern can be damn near
impossible at times, but just from the looks of things, some folks don't
even try.
-KD
K.D.
David,
Are you, by any chance, related to the Lentzes of Nashville?
-KD
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
>I can accept in the New York State climate, watering lawns. What
>irks me is the need to water sidewalks.
-----------------------------------------------------------
LOL!
Bill
>
> What that means for them is that all development within the towns must come
> to a halt unless they are able to hook up to the Boston water system or find
> some other source of water. I found it interesting that engineers say the
> main problem is too much pavement in parking lots and the like. The rain
> water can't get to the aquifer and is diverted to storm sewers which end up
> in the rivers and the ocean instead.
That's a huge problem in some areas. In Nassau County, the
combination of development and sewering has depleted the upper aquifer
to the point that most streams are dry except for during storms. When
you pave a landscape, water isn't allowed to seep into the ground. The
result is higher peaks and deeper valleys in stream hydrographs.
Stormwater runs off more quickly increasing flooding, and droughts are
deeper.
It is possible to develop in ways that return most of the water to the
ground, or at least hold it back to slowly run off to surface water.
In fact, rules are changing so that much new development will require
stormwater retention.
Of course, here in Schenectady County, a little thing like a shopping
mall in Rotterdam and surrounding commercial development in the prime
aquifer recarge area won't have any impact, according to the Rotterdam
town fathers.
Bill
> Why should I have to pay higher water bills because my neighbor
> insisnt on watering their lawn to make it look oh so pretty.
>
> Mrs. P
The solution is used by many water systems: an inclining block rate.
The peak water demand is the most expensive component of demand and
should cost more. That is typically the water used for lawn watering.
The idea is that water used for common household purposes gets
charged at a base rate, and water used beyond that gets charged a
higher unit rate.
Dave Hitt
>
>"Dave Hitt" <Boy....@Hate.spammers> wrote in message
>>
>> There's a restaurant that doesn't deserve to be in business. I hope
>> you left a nickel tip. A Canadian nickel. She didn't deserve any
>> more.
>
>Maybe, maybe not. I questioned an American who had lived for many years in
>Austria about what had happened. He could not verbalize the reason for why
>this happened, other than to say it was just the way things were done over
>there. It would have been very provincial / non-wordly / xenophobic of me
>to hold the waitress to American standards, don't you think?
Dumb rules are dumb rules in any language. The only rule should be
"the customer is always right."
----
When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realized that the Lord, in his wisdom, didn't work that way.
So I just stole one and asked him to forgive me. - Emo Phillips
---
hit...@spamblocker.bigfoot.com. (Remove "spamblocker" to reply.)
K.D.
"Dave Hitt" <Boy....@Hate.spammers> wrote in message
>
I see a real problem for you if you ever decide to spend any time in
Singapore.
-KD
Mrs. Pepper
wrote:
>"K.D." <kaye...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dave Hitt" <Boy....@Hate.spammers> wrote in message
>>>
>>> There's a restaurant that doesn't deserve to be in business. I hope
>>> you left a nickel tip. A Canadian nickel. She didn't deserve any
>>> more.
>>
>>Maybe, maybe not. I questioned an American who had lived for many years in
>>Austria about what had happened. He could not verbalize the reason for why
>>this happened, other than to say it was just the way things were done over
>>there. It would have been very provincial / non-wordly / xenophobic of me
>>to hold the waitress to American standards, don't you think?
>
>Dumb rules are dumb rules in any language. The only rule should be
>"the customer is always right."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ah.....so true. You learn that after working with the public for so
long. It may not always be the case, but its what most adhere to.
Mrs. P
David Lentz
Not that I am aware.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
K.D.
"David Lentz" <Ro...@signfile.net> wrote in message
> > Are you, by any chance, related to the Lentzes of Nashville?
>
> Not that I am aware.
There have been a few physicians and other professionals around town named
Lentz -- one of them was our pediatrician about 20 years ago until he moved
his office out to the suburbs. One of the main public health centers here
is called Lentz -- there's a picture of the front of it on this site:
http://healthweb.nashville.org/default.html
I think it was named after Dr. John Lentz, who was a Nashville physician in
the early part of the 20th century.
-KD
SCR
kaye...@hotmail.com wrote on 8/29/01 01:21 PM:
And Walter Lentz, the extraordinary animator for Woody Woodpecker.
scr
K.D.
"SCR" <stuart...@mac.com> wrote in message
> >
> And Walter Lentz, the extraordinary animator for Woody Woodpecker.
Yeah, him too.
-KD
Tom Hand
That's Walter Lantz, from New Rochelle, NY.
http://www.cinema.ucla.edu/text/lantz.html
David Lentz
SCR wrote:
<snip>
> And Walter Lentz, the extraordinary animator for Woody Woodpecker.
>
> scr
That was Walter Lantz. However I believe it may be in the same
family tree.
David
--
qyra...@ebpurfgre.ee.pbz
Dave Hitt
I'll just hang out in the US for the next twenty years. Unless there
are some drastic changes in the direction we're heading, we'll be
Singapore by then.