Nice Area's to Live.
SnaPPY
"Nicest Area in Which to Live" in the Capital Region? I know this is a
very open ended question, but I am thinking of moving and I want to
get a general feel of what people think about the different areas
around the region.
drop GUN before emailing
Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty)
hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html
All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.
Annie Palmer Fan (Sarge)
nothing up here in the "boondocks" that would satisfy you.
"SnaPPY" <sna...@swirve.com> wrote in message
news:dd4ef99c.02122...@posting.google.com...
Andrew B. Arthur
sna...@swirve.com (SnaPPY) wrote:
Ed Koch probably said it best about upstate:
"[He wouldn't be caught dead] wasting time in a pickup truck when you
have to drive 20 miles to buy a gingham dress or a Sears Roebuck suit"
Well, lets see... I live in Westerlo, and Sears is Colonie, which is
probably slightly more 20 miles from here. Too much traffic around that
area this time of year though, so I try to avoid it.
I should note I don't drive a pickup truck (yet), I have a '94 Plymouth
Sundance my parents gave me. My parents now drive a new '03 Subaru
Outback, which is probably better in the snow then a 4x4 truck and far
better gasoline milage, but not nearly as sexy.
Seriously, the traffic NORTH (Saratoga County/I-87) and EAST (Renselear
County/I-90/I-787) of Albany is terrible every morning. I miss the
majority of traffic as I go to college at HVCC and live South-West of
Albany, which has less traffic.
If you ask me, the suburbs around Albany are like all suburbs, sterile
(again in the words of Ed Koch). A lot of the City of Albany is suburbs
too, and the downtown is basically crack streets besides State buildings.
Property tax on average is low in New York compared to the rest of New
England, but they hit you up on every other tax (gas tax is the highest
in the nation by like 5-10c a gallon or so (for a grand total of about
35c a gallon state tax + 20c a gallon federal tax = $1.50 a gallon total
price), 8% sales tax, 4-6% income tax, cigs $1.50 tax ;).
If you don't like outdoors activies, Albany doesn't have all that much
shit that will interest you (capitol/mueseums/etc once), imho.
A lot of people don't like new people, sometimes it's really hard to fit
in the community. My family has lived in my house for 23 years, yet many
people consider us new to the community.
I guess having cows, being part of the fire squad, owning a nice truck,
being active in a church (which my family currently), having people from
the area forever, and all those related things seem to be required to
'really' be part of the community.
It probably doesn't help that everybody in my family is very
introverted...okay, way off topic.
--
Andrew B. Arthur All He Wanted Was To Be Free.
aa31...@nospam.hvcc.edu http://hvcc.edu/~aa310264
billnech
"Andrew B. Arthur" <aa31...@nospam.hvcc.edu> wrote in message
news:aa310264-CB346E...@news.mybizz.net...
assortment of interesting buildings besides, and including, the government
buildings. There are two excellent museums in the NY State Museum and the
Albany Institute of History and Art. The Lark Street area is a little
bohemia...popular with the younger crowd. There is also the now year round
professional theater Capital Rep.
Troy offers the Troy Savings bank Music Hall with its perfect acoustics.
Between the various cities in the Capital District, there is a wealth of
culture. We just saw Miss Saigon at Proctors in Schenectady last night...a
truly marvelous performance. There are also top notch shows and concerts at
Albany's Palace Theater. And the Pepsi Arena draws the top rock shows, as
well as providing sports entertainment.
In the summer, the Berkshires and Saratoga areas provide an amazing amount
of theater and music.
For downhill or cross country skiers, bicyclists, boating enthusiasts, white
water recreationists, hikers and campers, and, yes, snowmobilers (though I
don't personally go for motorized outdoor recreation) the Capital District
is an easy drive from some of the most spectacular recreation opportunities
in the East.
While housing prices are going up, they're still a bargain compared to
downstate prices. Schools are pretty good in most communities. There are
lots of colleges and universities and the local economy is strong.
In short, the Capital District is a wonderful place to life.
Donna
Rural area?
Suburban area?
What is nice to you might not be nice for someone else.
Describe what environment you are comfortable in.
For me, the best area has lots of landscape, ease of travel, no
traffic and no malls.
Others would gripe about lack of mall culture.
For me, the best area is Malta - Ballston Spa.
d.
Tom Hand
"Donna" <dts...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:98e6320a.02122...@posting.google.com...
I would have to take issue with that. To me the two seem like day and
night. Malta epitomizes suburban sprawl while Ballston Spa is a quaint, old
fashioned, compact village. Now if you are talking about the town of
Ballston, that's a different place altogether.
Donna
panoramic view of Saratoga Lake.
Suburban sprawl? Don't think so.
Wilton outside of Saratoga is Suburban sprawl.
Irondequoit outside of Rochester is Suburban sprawl.
I view Clifton Park as most decidedly crappy Suburban sprawl.
Guess I would take issue with YOU!
:)
donna
Tom Hand
I think of Malta as just a poor relative of Clifton Park. It's the same sort
of bedroom community except many of the houses are a bit tackier, especially
in the Luther Forrest area. Strip malls, and tract housing and not much
else. Maybe two or three decent restaurants, a few yahoo bars, and lots of
fast food. Oh, and a drive in movie and a dirt stock car track.
Donna
beautiful view of Saratoga Lake.
You must veer off of Route 9 and explore the country roads to
appreciate the natural beauty of the Malta topography.
Clifton Park has a beautiful view of Route 9 and about 147
developments! (See what I mean?)
:)
D.
PS We got that wonderful new Tech Park in offing that will generate
the traffic I disdain - at that point, I will be off to the sparsely
inhabited state of Maine!
Whitelightning
"Tom Hand" <troy...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:ltqP9.1483$nd.6...@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
>
>> I think of Malta as just a poor relative of Clifton Park. It's the same
sort
> of bedroom community except many of the houses are a bit tackier,
especially
> in the Luther Forrest area. Strip malls, and tract housing and not much
> else. Maybe two or three decent restaurants, a few yahoo bars, and lots
of
> fast food. Oh, and a drive in movie and a dirt stock car track.
>
>
drive in. And the dirt track is ok to, I got my first racing in there and
even a couple demolition derbies(no that's a blast to drive), or are you one
of those dirts for planting potatoes and asphalts for racing type lol.
Whitelightning
Donna
and they thought the drive-in was the best thing in the world. Moaned
about there not being any drive-ins where they live.
The track is fun too! Had a friend come from Maine and even though he
had driven for 6 hours, had to go to the track before he unpacked the
car!
:)
Don't take this stuff for granted - Many would love to have these
venues within a couple miles.
D.
> Hey leave the drive in a lone, I have fond memories that took place at the
> drive in. And the dirt track is ok to, I got my first racing in there and
> even a couple demolition derbies (no that's a blast to drive), or are you one
llama mama
news:98e6320a.02122...@posting.google.com:
>
> PS We got that wonderful new Tech Park in offing that will generate
> the traffic I disdain - at that point, I will be off to the sparsely
> inhabited state of Maine!
unless you're heading up to the Canadian border *and* inland, you're
going to find Maine is just like everywhere else suburban sprawl is
taking place.
there are very few places where you really can get away from that.
lee
--
The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst
lovely things. -Plato, philosopher (427-347 BCE)
Donna
:)
Donna
llama mama
@posting.google.com:
> Yep, would head way, way up north!
>
>:)
maybe we'll be neighbors eventually... got any use for llama wool? ;)
lee
>> unless you're heading up to the Canadian border *and* inland, you're
>> going to find Maine is just like everywhere else suburban sprawl is
>> taking place.
>> there are very few places where you really can get away from that.
>> lee
>
--
Donna
outta dat llama wool!!
sactip
None. The area's chief attraction is that it is 2 hours from
everything.... Boston, The City & Canada. Beyond that; your home is
losing value, the economy never recovered from the indroduction of
railroads to replace the Erie Canal, the sun goes away 7-months of the
year, the population is shrinking and what remains is growing into
very old demographics, public services are minimial while taxes are
maximum, the towns that pass for cities are decayed and the villages
that pass for towns could be right out of Deliverance. The airport
has a handful of flights (Greyhound has a higher passenger count than
ALB!). Political and police corruption are out in the open and
unchallenged. It's really a very long list, the above is just the
surface.
billnech
"sactip" <sac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:51833b7d.02123...@posting.google.com...
Boy! Talk about negativity! I've lived in the Capital District since 1983
and I love it. Yes, it's 2-3 hours from the Big cities. It's also large
enough to support a great deal of culture and small enough not to have the
big city headaches. Yeah, there's traffic but nothing like Boston or New
York City. And as I posted before, for those of us who enjoy the great
outdoors, there's a great deal of it within easy reach.
The economy is the strongest in the state right now, with local unemployment
staying below 4% even during the recession. There is a great deal of high
tech development. There's a large higher education sector and lots of
research leading to a fairly educated population.
It has its faults. It's one of the most sprawled metro areas in the nation
and is continuing to sprawl. There's a great deal of parochialism in local
politics which gets in the way of doing things more efficiently and
effectively. And, yes indeed we have winter and plenty of it. The solution
to that is to get out and enjoy it!
LEICA
> And, yes indeed we have winter and plenty of it. The solution
>to that is to get out and enjoy it!
>
Enjoy Winter ~~ Think SPRING
le...@aol.com
I haven't taken my best picture yet.
sander...@hotmail.com
> and I love it.
The only people who live anywhere in New York (outside of The City) in
order to pay the highest taxes in the nation for public services
substandard enough to do Mississippi proud, endure the weather, put up
with the over regulation of your personal life, delcining standard of
living, blah, blah blah.... are A) trapped by circumstance 2) Have
never been anywhere in their lives with the possible execption of a
weekend at EPCOT 3) Are retarded or stupid beyond the abilitiy of
medical science to cope. More often than not, all three.
drop GUN before emailing
>From: sander...@hotmail.com
>Date: 1/1/03 4:56 PM Eastern
>The only people who live anywhere in New York (outside of The City) in
>order to pay the highest taxes in the nation for public services
>substandard enough to do Mississippi proud, endure the weather, put up
>with the over regulation of your
>personal life, delcining standard of
>living, blah, blah blah.... are A) trapped by circumstance 2) Have
>never been anywhere in their lives with the possible execption of a
>weekend at EPCOT 3) Are retarded or stupid beyond the abilitiy of
>medical science to cope. More often than not, all three.
As one who has lived, worked, served or visited many areas of the country
(including Trent Lott's Misissippi), and now choose to live in WNY, I have ONE
comment; BULLSHIT.
billnech
<sander...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f11b6416.03010...@posting.google.com...
I have traveled to nearly every state in the nation. Well, ok, I've never
been to Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Iowa, North or South Dakota,
Minnesota, Alaska or Hawaii, but I've been to every other state. New York
is equaled but unsurpassed in four season beauty. The recreational
opportunities are unsurpassed anywhere in the East (though equaled by the
Northern New England states and possibly by West Virginia). The cultural
opportunities are top notch. And, yes, I'm gainfully employed and doing
fairly well, as is my wife.
Taxes are high but we do have better schools than most of the nation (don't
let inner city skewed statistics fool you). A chunk of our tax problem
could be solved through local government consolidation if the politicos
would ever dare to think outside of the box. All in all, though, an
excellent quality of life is available in upstate New York...particularly in
the Capital District.
I've noticed that many people who gripe and complain have never really lived
anywhere else. Or perhaps they made their move to one of those boom metro
areas and are busily rationalizing it. As for me, you can have your boom
towns. I want no part of it.
Tom Hand
I agree with much of what you say, but you can take this four season climate
with it's oppressive summers, miserable winters, and wet, muggy springs and
shove it. Early autumn is ok but by late fall we are usually buried in snow
and ice. In my estimation the desert southwest is ideal. Hot but dry days,
cool nights and very little precipitation of any kind. I also think the
American desert is extraordinarily beautiful.
Cathy Friedmann
even like snowstorms; don't particularly like *driving* in them, but like
other aspects of them. I wouldn't enjoy living where electrical storms,
tonadoes, or hurricanes were common occurances. And none of them are, here.
:-)
Cathy
--
"Staccato signals of constant information..."
("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
"Tom Hand" <troy...@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:zzOQ9.1640$nd.7...@newsfeed1.thebiz.net...
billnech
> I agree with much of what you say, but you can take this four season
climate
> with it's oppressive summers, miserable winters, and wet, muggy springs
and
> shove it. Early autumn is ok but by late fall we are usually buried in
snow
> and ice. In my estimation the desert southwest is ideal. Hot but dry
days,
> cool nights and very little precipitation of any kind. I also think the
> American desert is extraordinarily beautiful.
>
The desert is indeed extremely beautiful...in April. But try it during the
summer. It's a dry heat, the locals tell you with a somewhat crazed giggle.
115 degrees in the shade in intolerable even with no humidity.
To me the northeast has the best of all worlds. Summer heat is brief and
rarely too intense. Fall and spring are mild and beautiful. And winter?
Well, I'm an avid cross country skier so I just love it.
Tom Hand
There are places you can change your climate by hopping into your car and
driving a few miles. I lived for two years in the San Joaquin Valley in
Northern California which would be a desert if it weren't irrigated - 105
degrees every day in the summer (yes, dry heat. Not oppressive at all), but
50 degree nights. In mid July, though, I could look up at the mountain
peaks only 20 miles away and see that they were still snow covered. Or I
could drive to San Francisco, about 50 miles away, and it would be a chilly
70 degrees and foggy on the same days that the sun was burning down on the
valley. Or I could visit the Napa Valley which has a climate like southern
France by driving for an hour. You don't have to wait for the seasons to
change out there because every imaginable climate is a short drive away.
Trudi Marrapodi
sander...@hotmail.com wrote:
I'm from Ohio, consider myself relatively intelligent, and have
voluntarily lived in upstate NY for about 16 years, not counting two years
of college. Bzzzzt. Thanks for playing.
--
Trudi
(glad I missed all the TROLLING of the ancient Yuletide carol on RSSIF)
Bill
True, but then you have that California cost of living.
I did once spend a bit of time in early summer in the Sacramento
Valley. The temperature didn't go down much at night and it WAS
oppressive!
I could do without ice storms...took a half an hour to chip the cars
out this morning. But other than that, most of the local weather is
pleasing to me.
sactip
I beg your pardon? Tell that to the residents of Mechanicville who
lost their homes in the 1998 tornado cluster. Besides... since when
does New Yawk have a monolopy on four seasons? You want 4 seaons, at
a fraction of the price? Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, both
Dakota's, Nebraska, Utah, Nevada, California... et al. New York,
north and west of Croton on the Hudson, is a dead body just wating to
be burried.
sactip
> <sander...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >
> > The only people who live anywhere in New York (outside of The City) in
> > order to pay the highest taxes in the nation for public services
> > substandard enough to do Mississippi proud, endure the weather, put up
> > with the over regulation of your personal life, delcining standard of
> > living, blah, blah blah.... are A) trapped by circumstance 2) Have
> > never been anywhere in their lives with the possible execption of a
> > weekend at EPCOT 3) Are retarded or stupid beyond the abilitiy of
> > medical science to cope. More often than not, all three.
>
> I have traveled to nearly every state in the nation. Well, ok, I've never
> been to Mississippi, Alabama, Tennessee, Iowa, North or South Dakota,
> Minnesota, Alaska or Hawaii, but I've been to every other state. >
Oh really? Here's just one example of the fine education that your
kid is getting. NY State has decided that biology is a matter of
poltical correctness and that history needs revision. Your kid is
taught in school that the Irish Potato Famine was an act of deliberate
genocide, commited by the English...biological warfare using an
agricultural virus in the 19th century. Aside from being impossible
it did not happen that way. However, the state of New York has
decided that indoctrination and indroduction to biggotry are far more
important than learning. This has been the case since 1997 when the
legislature passed, and Pataki signed, a law mandating such
instruction.
If you look at the state educational code you will find many more
similar gems.
Jim Elbrecht
-snip-
>True, but then you have that California cost of living.
Not to mention the tendency of California terra-firma to not be all
that 'firma'.
>I did once spend a bit of time in early summer in the Sacramento
>Valley. The temperature didn't go down much at night and it WAS
>oppressive!
Weather-wise, it was perfect.
>
>I could do without ice storms...took a half an hour to chip the cars
>out this morning. But other than that, most of the local weather is
>pleasing to me.
The silver lining for the ice storm is the incredible beauty of it. I
just came back from a trip to the store & had to pull over to drink in
a few minutes of a backlit stand of some red bushes. [And now that
I'm back home the sun is low enough to show off the trees around my
property.]
I've lived in some beautiful places, but all-in-all, I ended up back
here by choice & I've never regretted it.
Jim
sander...@hotmail.com
Getting out of Fly Over Country was a good move but you jumped from
irrelevant to decaying. You need to aim south or west
Cathy Friedmann
> "Cathy Friedmann" <cl...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:<av0d3r$as6ug$1...@ID-103542.news.dfncis.de>...
> > Otoh, I like the four very distinct seasons that we have here in the
NE. I
> > even like snowstorms; don't particularly like *driving* in them, but
like
> > other aspects of them. I wouldn't enjoy living where electrical storms,
> > tonadoes, or hurricanes were common occurances. And none of them are,
here.
> > :-)
> >
> > Cathy
> >
> > --
> > "Staccato signals of constant information..."
> > ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon
> I beg your pardon? Tell that to the residents of Mechanicville who
> lost their homes in the 1998 tornado cluster.
I said "common occurances". We had 3 tornadoes close to here CNY), also,
the same time Mechanicville experienced theirs. But are tornadoes *common
occurrances* here? No.
> Besides... since when
> does New Yawk have a monolopy on four seasons?
Did I say we have a monoply on the 4 distinct season?? Not that I'm
aware...
> You want 4 seaons, at
> a fraction of the price? Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Montana, both
> Dakota's, Nebraska, Utah, Nevada, California... et al. New York,
> north and west of Croton on the Hudson, is a dead body just wating to
> be burried.
Well then, let's hope you don't live north & west of Croton, because that
might make you very, very miserable...
aMAZon
Cathy Friedmann wrote:
> "sactip" <sac...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:51833b7d.03010...@posting.google.com...
>
>>I beg your pardon? Tell that to the residents of Mechanicville who
>>lost their homes in the 1998 tornado cluster.
>>
>
> I said "common occurances". We had 3 tornadoes close to here CNY), also,
> the same time Mechanicville experienced theirs. But are tornadoes *common
> occurrances* here? No.
My husband and I used to live in Illinois, which got tornadoes as a
regular occurance. Then we moved to a part of California where the
road we took to get to work every morning had signs on it saying
"Constant land movement" (no lie!), and we experienced at least
one 5.5 earthquake while we were there.
When we moved to NY, my MIL said, "At least you won't have to put
up with the earthquakes or tornadoes now, just the snow."
Ha! That year, we got all of 'em. She suspected I'd packed 'em
away in the suitcases when we moved. :-)
--
aMAZon
zesz...@worldnet.att.net
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood."
billnech
upstate NY newsgroup?
As for the south, the summers are too damned long and unbearably hot. Plus
there are too many religious fundamentalists and right wing politics for my
tastebuds.
The west is much more pleasing from a scenery, recreation, and social
perspective. But the western cities sprawl forever and, with the exception
of the coastal cities from San Francisco northward, look like they were just
tossed onto the landscape with little thought. Places like Southern
California, Phoenix and Denver are choking on their own growth. Their air
is highly polluted and they will only experience deepening water supply
problems. Can't drink the sand, after all.
After a spectacular vacation in the Southwest last year, while I thoroughly
enjoyed the spectacular scenery, I was also happy to get back to the green
hills of home.
billnech
For one thing, people north and west of Croton on the Hudson generally don't
say "New Yawk." That's a downstate accent.
No one ever said there was a monopoly on four seasons. Though if you think
Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine and California can be had at a fraction of
upstate's cost, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn that you may be interested
in. The upper Midwest has four seasons indeed....but much more severe
winters AND summers than the northeast. Utah is beautiful...but too much in
the grasp of a controlling religion. Nevada is mostly one big desert
...worth a visit but I wouldn't want to live there. Montana has the big
sky, bigger blizzards, and certainly some amazing scenery. But it's too far
from cultural centers for my tastes.
For my lifestyle and interests, I prefer Upstate New York or New England.
billnech
And Kansas decided a few years back that creationism was a science.
Education isn't perfect anywhere...less so when politicians get involved.
Still, my work allows me to get to know people from all over the nation.
And few places can boast the quality of education that's available in most
of NY's districts.
The potato famine may not have happened the way you described....but the
English certainly weren't unhappy to see so many Irish leaving either.
sactip
> And Kansas decided a few years back that creationism was a science.
There you go, my point exactly! Outside of The City, New York may as
well be Kansas or some other pointless place. The difference is that
in New York State you are paying probably double what you would pay to
live for the same level of misery in Kansas. When was the last time
you walked into a store and offered to pay double the price for what
you knew to be an inferior product?
Trudi Marrapodi
If all you ever do is "fly over" Ohio, you're the one who needs a change
of scenery. Unlike some people, I don't think the south or west are the
perfect places to live. I can just as soon do without earthquakes,
humidity and outrageous costs-of-living.
Charles F. Gaumond
professional job that I've been able to find. I find Maryland to be a
border state in a cultural sense; it's a state where Northeastern and
Southern cultures stew together. Where I live in MD, Southern
anti-intellectualism and parochialism is quite strong. Further West
and North, there is a subtle shift toward more Northeastern attitudes.
These attitudes are pretty suble and appear, in my opinion, in the
funding and maintainance of public places. The public schools where my
children attended were chimera with two academic cultures flowing
side-by-side; some children excelled academically and others excelled
at, well, other things that matter to those from further South.
On 2 Jan 2003 10:17:06 -0800, sac...@hotmail.com (sactip) wrote:
.......
>> Taxes are high but we do have better schools
>
>Oh really? Here's just one example of the fine education that your
sander...@hotmail.com
Yea; tornadoes, Jerry Springer, fat asses, 1980's hair, all you can
eat breakfasts at Frich's and complete lack of any culture this side
of milking cows is always preferable to living among the civilized.
billnech
Trying to compare NY education to what was going on in Kansas is just plain
silly. NYC has its problems. But in most upstate areas, the quality of
education surpasses most of the nation. Now, I'm troubled by the movement
towards making everyone get a Regents diploma. It will have at least one of
two outcomes: either a dumbing down of the Regents diploma or an increase in
dropouts. I think they'll eventually come to their senses though.
There are many parts of the country where most middle class people won't
send their kids to public school. That's not the case here.
Still, I don't think people from Kansas would think of their homes as
pointless. I wouldn't want to live there myself: I prefer the Northeast's
scenery and culture. And to call upstate NY pointless is just troll
behavior.
Cathy Friedmann
> Now, I'm troubled by the movement
> towards making everyone get a Regents diploma.
You're not the only one.
> It will have at least one of
> two outcomes: either a dumbing down of the Regents diploma or an increase
in
> dropouts. I think they'll eventually come to their senses though.
This topic tends to bring make me rant. Not everyone has the same
intellectual ceiling, nor does everyone aspire to the same things. IMO, the
SED is now assuming all will want to go to a 4 yr. college. Hello, but...
society is a well-rounded one, not 2-D.
I'm afraid that it's going to take a major problem - like a larger drop-out
rate (of thoroughly frustrated kids), for the SED to come to its senses.
Commissioner Mills has been questioned about this problem, but I've yet to
hear him give a satisfactory answer - when he actually gives one, instead of
skirting around the issue. (So far his answers that I've heard have
included: school on Saturdays, tutoring after school... IOW - more
lessons/school, beyond regular class time. Right, more of basically the
same - like that's going to be attractive to a kid who isn't enjoying school
to begin with!)
I've been teaching elem. school since '72, & have seen the pendulum swing
one way, then the other. It only seems to manage to pass by the middle,
sometimes stopping very briefly - where common sense resides. At the
present, I see the curriculum being pushed down from the top, to the point
that the basics are now getting squished out at the bottom, in favor of
higher concepts & skills. Seems to me, one needs a good foundation - the
basics, to build upon...
billnech
usually have reasoned responses!) Heck, it's nice to see some reason on
Usenet at all!!!!
One town in Massachusetts has said that it would not offer the state
sanctioned diploma. It will offer its own and see where the chips fall. In
Mass, I believe the passing rate on the first round of high school tests was
about 30%.
I'm not worried about my own kids. They'll do fine and are already on
college track and always test well. But I do worry about the whole system.
As you said, not everyone should go to college and our schools have to
prepare people to be productive adults ... whatever path they take.
Tom Hand
"Cathy Friedmann" <cl...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:av5lem$c94ip$1...@ID-103542.news.dfncis.de...
I think it's essential that everyone go to college in this day in age. It
used to be someone with a high school diploma could get a decent paying job
in a factory, as a cop or firefighter, or in the construction trades. The
factory jobs hardly exist any more and those that do often require higher
education, most municipalities require a four year degree for police and
fire employment, and even the construction industry wants to see at least a
two year degree for apprentices. If the public schools do not educate the
students for a college path they are dooming them to flipping burgers or
working similar menial, low paying jobs for the rest of their lives.
Rob G.
news:av5lem$c94ip$1...@ID-103542.news.dfncis.de...
Generally, they will trot out an idea, and if it doesn't succeed in two
years, they scrap it and move on to the next educational trend of the week.
With one exception... They adopted the most ludicrous scheme ever developed
when they went to "Integrated Mathematics" instead of teaching Algebra,
Trigonometry, and Geometry in separate years. I both "learned" under this
system, and taught it, and it is a disaster. There is no coherent flow from
one topic to the next, and the teachers themselves have trouble following
what is happening, to say nothing of the students. But, despite how stupid
this system is, it's been kept.
> I've been teaching elem. school since '72, & have seen the pendulum swing
> one way, then the other. It only seems to manage to pass by the middle,
> sometimes stopping very briefly - where common sense resides. At the
> present, I see the curriculum being pushed down from the top, to the point
> that the basics are now getting squished out at the bottom, in favor of
> higher concepts & skills. Seems to me, one needs a good foundation - the
> basics, to build upon...
>
Definitely! This is especially true in math, where everything builds from
what has gone before. But, now we're trying to compress the basics and move
on to the advanced stuff before the foundations have been mastered.
Regretfully, considering how long the members of the State Education
Department have been out of teaching, I don't see anything changing anytime
soon. They'll continue to jump from one fad to the next, and the ones who
suffer are the kids.
--
Rob
aMAZon
Rob G. wrote:
So, I've got a school-age kid. What can we, as parents, do at home
to build those skills necessary?
I remember in freshman algebra in high school that I just *couldn't*
solve for X and Y -- until, after about 3 weeks, I discovered that
X and Y were _two_ _different_ _numbers_! My teacher saw my grades
pick up quickly, and was deeply suspicious (thought I was cheating).
When he asked me about it, I just told him, "Oh, I finally figured
out that X and Y were supposed to be different." He couldn't understand
how I didn't know that, but it was gratifying to go from failing
to an A in a couple of weeks. And, I heard from kids in the next
year, that he took the time to explicitly state that X and Y were
two different numbers and didn't have to be the same values.
Jim Elbrecht
-snip-
>I think it's essential that everyone go to college in this day in age.
I think it always has been and still is a bad idea to send a kid
straight from HS to college.
> It
>used to be someone with a high school diploma could get a decent paying job
>in a factory, as a cop or firefighter, or in the construction trades.
Lets not forget health care. And they are still there.
> The
>factory jobs hardly exist any more and those that do often require higher
>education, most municipalities require a four year degree for police and
>fire employment,
Where did you hear that? All the requirements I could find online
including http://peace-officers.com/content/ctrequire.shtml says entry
level Police need a HS diploma. I used
"high school" equivalent police "educational requirements"
for google terms and got 1280 hits, though probably all aren't jobs.
The FBI requires a 4 yr degree, but not your local gendarmes.
> and even the construction industry wants to see at least a
>two year degree for apprentices.
I guess I just know too many union guys with connections, but I don't
know any construction workers who went to college. [oops--- I just
remembered one electrician who went to Cornell for a year.]
> If the public schools do not educate the
>students for a college path they are dooming them to flipping burgers or
Whenever I hear about how HS has to prepare a kid for college, I
remember a friend from HS. [class of '69] Joe was in one of the
first BOCEs classes. He couldn't read for crap, but he could take
cars apart blindfolded. Last I heard he was doing it for Hollywood
sets in between running his motel and his construction business.
Now if he'd been forced to sit in Mrs. Mockler's English class &
construct cool haiku's & discuss what it was that Frost was trying to
say he would have been wasting his time, Mrs. Mockler's time & the
time of the rest of the class when he either asked a million questions
to keep up, or was disruptive due to boredom. [glad I don't have to
diagram that sentence!]
>working similar menial, low paying jobs for the rest of their lives.
Hare's some jobs that don't require 4 yr degrees- most are HS diploma
or equivalent;
RN's starting at $40,000 [there are good 2yr RN programs].
LPN for $30k
911 dispatcher in Rochester- HS diploma or GED, $24-37K
Albany Fire dept will take a GED [
http://www.apdonline.org/Fire/Employment_page_1.htm ]
The NYC Fire Dept will take a GED too, but you need to have served 2
yrs in the military-- otherwise it's 30 college credits. . . .
Here's a menial one, but the pay isn't too bad- a typist for Saratoga
County- HS diploma, $25K to start. . .
Oh yeah-- and all those sales jobs out there, from real estate to
stocks to cars to insurance. Do any of those employers care what
college you went to or for how long?
Count me in the 'Some folks don't belong in college or in 'college
prep' courses' school'.
Jim
Tom Hand
"Jim Elbrecht" <Elbr...@email.com> wrote in message
news:prld1vcuicmpkd2n5...@4ax.com...
Tell you what. Go to Google and type in "education requirements (name of
occupation, such as police officer, or electrician apprentice, or automobile
service technician)" and check out the real requirements for real jobs
offered by real employers. You will find, for instance, that a cop in New
York City needs a minimum of 60 credits and that one in Los Angeles needs a
two to four year degree, and that most electrician apprentices and
automobile mechanics (oops, service technicians) need a two year degree.
Even if some positions don't require a degree at present it's fairly certain
that the trend is toward more education, and most will eventually require
them. Furthermore, a lack of education severely reduces the prospects of
advancement, making it likely that someone will be dead-ended in an entry
level position with no promotions in sight.
At one time it was thought that an eighth-grade education was plenty. It is
pretty clear that the idea of a high school diploma being sufficient to
survive today is an equally obsolete idea. Even the army prefers enlisted
recruits to have some college and gives them preference over those who
don't.
Jim Elbrecht
>occupation, such as police officer, or electrician apprentice, or automobile
>service technician)" and check out the real requirements for real jobs
>offered by real employers. You will find, for instance, that a cop in New
>York City needs a minimum of 60 credits and that one in Los Angeles needs a
>two to four year degree,
OK-- Cop in NYC 60 Credit hours *or* HS or equivalent and 2 yrs
military. [and this is being questioned with legislation trying to
change it to 60 credit hours within 5 years of joining. See
http://www.council.nyc.ny.us/pdf_files/bills/res0172-2002.htm .
Buffalo PD- the same except they'll also take 6 reserve years;
Went to http://www.lapd.org/ & they say [go to
Recruitment/requirements] "EDUCATION
Graduation from a U.S. High School, G.E.D. or equivalent from a U.S.
institution, or a California High School Proficiency Examination
(CHSPE) certificate. A two- or four-year college degree from an
accredited U.S. or foreign institution may be substituted for the high
school requirement. "
> and that most electrician apprentices and
>automobile mechanics (oops, service technicians) need a two year degree.
I only know one electrician's apprentice personally & he went to
Cornell for 1 year.
My wife reminded me that I do know one tradesman with a degree. A
carpenter who spent two years getting a Refrig & Air Cond. degree at
the insistence of his father [a union carpenter]. I know several
other union tradesman who worked construction summers and right out of
HS. I think getting in the union is just what it always was-- who,
not what, you know is important.
My auto mechanics are 2nd & 3d generations in a mom and pop station.
The second generation was sent off to college to get a business
degree. He says it was the biggest waste of time & money in his life.
He only made the 3d generation go to college for one year. [for the
experience, not the education] Now they work together.
>
>Even if some positions don't require a degree at present it's fairly certain
>that the trend is toward more education, and most will eventually require
>them. Furthermore, a lack of education severely reduces the prospects of
>advancement, making it likely that someone will be dead-ended in an entry
>level position with no promotions in sight.
I don't question that a degree will open some doors. But to say
that they are all shut if you don't have one is foolish. To insist
people with no desire, need, or talent be forced to attend college is
wasting everyone's time & money.
>At one time it was thought that an eighth-grade education was plenty. It is
>pretty clear that the idea of a high school diploma being sufficient to
>survive today is an equally obsolete idea.
A degree will likely make your life easier. But it is no guarantee.
Nor is not having one a guarantee that you are doomed to a life of
poverty.
> Even the army prefers enlisted
>recruits to have some college and gives them preference over those who
>don't.
I know a recruiter. Recruit & preference should never be used in the
same sentence. You sign-- the Army *a*ssigns you wherever they need
you. [and that's the way it oughta be]
Jim
Rob G.
news:3E167070...@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net...
Mathematics curriculum!
2. Don't let your kid use a calculator! If they can't add, subtract,
multiply, or divide without a calculator, they are doomed once they start
doing higher level math.
3. Work with your child, don't do the work for them.
4. Make sure they do their best. ("Best" is a completely relative term. I
used to tell my students I wanted their best work. There is no shame in
being a C student, if that is the best you can do. However, it is not enough
for a B student to be getting C's.)
> I remember in freshman algebra in high school that I just *couldn't*
> solve for X and Y -- until, after about 3 weeks, I discovered that
> X and Y were _two_ _different_ _numbers_! My teacher saw my grades
> pick up quickly, and was deeply suspicious (thought I was cheating).
>
> When he asked me about it, I just told him, "Oh, I finally figured
> out that X and Y were supposed to be different." He couldn't understand
> how I didn't know that, but it was gratifying to go from failing
> to an A in a couple of weeks. And, I heard from kids in the next
> year, that he took the time to explicitly state that X and Y were
> two different numbers and didn't have to be the same values.
>
That is the sign of a good teacher. He learned that his instruction method
was flawed, and adjusted it accordingly. Yes, he should have been clearer
when he taught you, but at least he admitted he was doing something wrong.
--
Rob
sander...@hotmail.com
Fly Over Country is pointless. Upstate is a dead body awaiting
burial. A place where those left behind pay twice the price for half
the services. You can rationalize all you want about why you are
paying double for inferior what you would have to pay elsewhere for
superior. It doesn't change that you are and that I am not. Be my
guest; continue to be harvested as a renewable resource. My home
increased in value over 30% last year. The total tax on my 250k home
is under 2k per year yet my public services - from police to sewer to
garbage and the others are far superior to yours. My local PD has 5
choppers, with full tactical gear, in the air for instance yet (or
maybe because) crime is mostly gang banger wannabes and drugs down the
hood. The infrastructure is maintained, the seasons you cherish are
here yet today I am wearing shorts and a t-shirt and have been working
in the yard (it is January 4th). Wages and employment are strong and
the population is swelling while yours is shrinking. Recreational
opportunities abound and it's a $39. flight to anything that you might
want that is not here.
None of this is uncommon. There is a very long list of such places,
none of which are in the Rust Belt. Upstate is the aberration.
Upstate is the cadaver and the only way for you to survive there is to
rationalize.
Steve Fleckenstein
faculty to get the kids ready during the school year to get good grades on
the moving target known as the Regents. This leaves the kids very little
time for anything else educational that is not required to pass a Regents
exam.
Passing the Regents means just that, you passed the Regents. It doesn't mean
you can handle any real world job requirements.
You won't believe how many waiters in my area have 4 year degrees.
Let see.. blue collar jobs have been shipped to China , Mexico, and Sout
America.
white collar jobs like programmers are being moved to India and Canada.
Professional jobs are going to H1-B card holders.
That leaves those left a chance at jobs like prison guard, gas station
attendant, wal-mart, and politicians
Cathy Friedmann
news:3E167070...@NOSPAMworldnet.att.net...
> to build those skills necessary?
In elem. school, I'd say - make sure s/he knows the basic-basics.
IOW - the add., subt., mult., & div. facts. And how to rename for the first
three, & how remainders work for the last one. For routine problem solving,
how to recognize the various key hint words: "altogether" = add, "How many
more" = subtr., "each" = multiplication (or division), etc. For non-routine
problem solving - how to discern /recognize & build upon patterns, to draw
pictures, how to use manipulatives if necessary, "guess & check", & realize
that there may well be more than one correct answer, etc. And the reality
is that for the 4th gr. NYState Math test, one often needs to justify the
answer - not just through showing the computation &/or a drawing, but also
by writing sentences, explaining how the problem was solved. Gathering
data, charting it, & graphing it are also important, both in Math & Science.
I haven't hit on geometry - both 2-D & 3-D, measurement (Math & Science) in
metric & customary, money, fractions (incl. equivalent & mixed numbers),
probability, > & <, even & odd numbers, reading & writing numerals (number
of digits depends upon grade level - we go to 3 digits in 2nd gr., 6 digits
in 3rd gr., 9 digits in gr. 4, etc.), the associative & commutative
properties....
For ELA - reading & writing, besides making sure the phonetic aspects for
decoding are in place, kids need to know how to rhyme (which also helps w/
decoding), to state the setting(s) & characters of a selection, draw
conclusions, how to compare & contrast characters in a selection (citing
material in the selection that leads them to their conclusions), retell a
story - the plot - Beginning, Middle, End. The B,M,E aspect is also
important for writing - "movement/time passage" needs to be apparent - a
portion of the 4th Gr. NYS ELA test requires this. And, of course, a basic
paragraph needs to be achieved: main idea sentence, details that support the
main idea, & a concluding sentence. Letter writing is another skill that is
tested in gr. 4, but is usually taught at least as early as gr. 2, AFAIK.
I'm not as familiar with the 4th gr. Science test, but much of it is based
on "stations" - the children need to be able to do the processes involved.
In Soc. St., a child needs to be able to locate info - whether in text or on
a chart or graph, know the various land & water features, & have a decent
grasp of maps skills, and interpret photos - infer info from them (where it
was taken, when it was taken, what had just happened or may happen in the
future, etc.). Many children have a really difficult time (in gr. 3,
anyway) conceptually, sorting out village from county, from state, from
country, from continent. Needs & wants are covered, as is basic gov't. -
getting more involved in upper elem.
I rambled, rather - don't know if that's what you meant, or not. As long as
you keep an eye on the work that comes home, you'll know what's basically
being taught, & will see where any problems may lie.
> I remember in freshman algebra in high school that I just *couldn't*
> solve for X and Y -- until, after about 3 weeks, I discovered that
> X and Y were _two_ _different_ _numbers_! My teacher saw my grades
> pick up quickly, and was deeply suspicious (thought I was cheating).
>
> When he asked me about it, I just told him, "Oh, I finally figured
> out that X and Y were supposed to be different." He couldn't understand
> how I didn't know that, but it was gratifying to go from failing
> to an A in a couple of weeks. And, I heard from kids in the next
> year, that he took the time to explicitly state that X and Y were
> two different numbers and didn't have to be the same values.
And when I was taking Chemistry, I didn't understand how the teacher was
coming up w/ the solutions to the chemical equations he was writing on the
board. I asked a friend, who said, "Oh, just solve them like algebraic
equations, substituting in the chemical symbols". D'uh - of *course*! But
I'm a literal person, & a kid who needed to be told point blank how
something worked, not left to draw the connecting lines on my own. IOW - if
that teacher had linked prior knowledge - knowing we'd all taken Algebra 2
years before the Chem course, I would've understood those equations from day
1. His poor example of (non)teaching actually helped me in my own teaching:
use prior knowledge & point out the link(s)!
Jim Elbrecht
-snip-
>That leaves those left a chance at jobs like prison guard, gas station
>attendant, wal-mart, and politicians
I'm curious how you came up with that group. The only thing I see
that ties them together is that no college is needed.
Corrections officer; IMO, a respectable & very demanding job that
takes the *maximum* of people skills. In state prisons pay starts
at $25 & goes to $30K after one year. I haven't seen a chart, but I
think top pay would be around $40K with no overtime. Full benefits
including excellent retirement. Not a bad job for one with *no*
educational requirements.
Gas station attendant & Walmart clerk- low in the respect, salary &
benefits departments.
Politicians-- everybody hates you [except those you're stealing for-
they worship you as long as the gravy train is running]- pay and
benefits outstanding.
Jim
Steve Fleckenstein
| "Steve Fleckenstein" <spf...@citlink.net> wrote:
|
| -snip-
| >That leaves those left a chance at jobs like prison guard, gas station
| >attendant, wal-mart, and politicians
|
| I'm curious how you came up with that group. The only thing I see
| that ties them together is that no college is needed.
Has nothing to do with education.
Quite a few years ago I read or heard someone suggest that the only jobs
available in the future would be those that protected things from getting
stolen (security guards) or keeping people who steal in jail (prison
guards). No matter how much it pays, based on tales told by friends who are
prison guards and shrinks in prisons, I wouldn't want that job. There are
some jobs that no matter how good the pay is it isn't worth the hassle.
gas station attendant:
Well there are none around here. All are self serve. But the cashiers are
still around. They are usually single Mom's or fresh out of college kids who
have not found jobs in the field they majored in. I guess I could have also
said IHOP, Pizza Hut, etc. Like the kid next door, CIA graduate, who works
at Pizza Hut. Long hours, low pay, little respect.
Wal-Mart: The folks I know who work at wal-mart are retirees who can't make
ends meet on their retirement.
Politicians: disliked by many, most (not all) are the scum of the earth.
Will always be around to scrape up the road kill, and make a profit on it
like ambulance chasing lawyers.
The key to all these occupations , in my mind is they are less desirable
positions, bringing in low money, lousy hours, physical and emotional abuse
for pay received, compared perhaps to traditional blue or white collar jobs
or "professionals". As a kid in college it wasn't below me to sweep a
parking lot with a push broom for cash. I wouldn't want to do it till I
retired.
A degree tells me you know the material well enough to pass the regents or
college requirements.
It doesn't prove the person can successfully function in a particular career
or function in today's world.
Education is more than studying to pass a series of benchmarks.
Studying to only pass tests takes the education out of education.
Yes , I have a college degree. Yes, I have a good job. Yes , I have had some
low end jobs on the way up.
Dave Hitt
<gd...@rochesterNOSPAM.rr.com> wrote:
>> When he asked me about it, I just told him, "Oh, I finally figured
>> out that X and Y were supposed to be different." He couldn't understand
>> how I didn't know that, but it was gratifying to go from failing
>> to an A in a couple of weeks. And, I heard from kids in the next
>> year, that he took the time to explicitly state that X and Y were
>> two different numbers and didn't have to be the same values.
>>
>That is the sign of a good teacher. He learned that his instruction method
>was flawed, and adjusted it accordingly. Yes, he should have been clearer
>when he taught you, but at least he admitted he was doing something wrong.
Agreed. One of the hardest things to do as a teacher is to drop your
own assumptions about "what everybody knows."
---
Don't settle for watching Improv on TV. See it live, and join in the fun!
http://www.insertsomethingfunny.com/index.php
billnech
I disagree that everyone needs to go to college..at least not to a four year
college. There are plenty of jobs that don't require college...but that do
require skills to do well.
Public schools absolutely must prepare students for college. But they also
must prepare those students who won't go to college for life.
billnech
And just where are you?
As for T shirt in January, that equates to oppressive heat from May through
September! Leave me out of it!
Today, after doing some morning chores, I went over to the local golf course
(five minutes away) for a couple of hours of cross country skiing. The
winter weather was glorious. The trees were all snow covered. The snow was
soft and fluffy and skiing was excellent. People I met were all in a good
mood. The sledding hills were full of kids having the times of their lives.
It was simply excellent. I don't want to live where I can't have that.
I won't claim that everything in upstate NY is without fault. Our state
government is dysfunctional. Our system of local governments is clearly
broken. But our schools are good (for the most part), the country side is
amazing, the local economy is quite good considering there is a national
recession going on (granted this is not true of much of upstate west of the
Albany area), and you can live quite nicely in upstate New York for typical
incomes for the region.
Our population's not increasing (though it is expanding....spreading
out)...but you can have your boom towns.
If you live in a boom area and taxes are low, it's because you're living off
your own growth. That cannot sustain itself. Eventually that will slow
down and you'll have to pay for all the infrastructure and services that the
new development is now paying for.
Chris
> that they are all shut if you don't have one is foolish. To insist
> people with no desire, need, or talent be forced to attend college is
> wasting everyone's time & money.
>
> >At one time it was thought that an eighth-grade education was plenty. It
is
> >pretty clear that the idea of a high school diploma being sufficient to
> >survive today is an equally obsolete idea.
>
>
> A degree will likely make your life easier. But it is no guarantee.
> Nor is not having one a guarantee that you are doomed to a life of
> poverty.
>
Judge Smails: Well, the world needs ditch diggers, too.
Tom Hand
"Chris" <cr...@optonline.net.nospam> wrote in message
news:H1fS9.288969$a8.2...@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
But not very many in this age of mechanization and computerization. All
labor intensive industries have substituted machines for people. In the
1950's there were more than a quarter of a million longshoremen employed on
the docks, now there are less than 20,000. and very few of them are engaged
in hauling cargo off of ships using brute force.
sander...@hotmail.com
> <sander...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> And just where are you?
>
> As for T shirt in January, that equates to oppressive heat from May through
> September! Leave me out of it!
>
> Today, after doing some morning chores, I went over to the local golf course
> (five minutes away) for a couple of hours of cross country skiing. The
> winter weather was glorious. The trees were all snow covered. The snow was
> soft and fluffy and skiing was excellent. People I met were all in a good
> mood. The sledding hills were full of kids having the times of their lives.
> It was simply excellent. I don't want to live where I can't have that.
I could be in Seattle. Maybe Portland. The Bay Area or any one of
several California Central Valley cities like Sacramento, Modesto,
Fresno or Bakersfield. I could also be in San Diego or North County.
Maybe Phoenix , Scottsdale, Mesa or Tucson. Las Vegas and Henderson
are big time boomtowns but for that matter I could be in Denver,
Colorado Springs, Boulder, Dallas, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, San Antonio,
Plano, Houston or Huntsville. Have you seen the stats from
Mississippi lately? Might be there. Raleigh, Charlotte,
Greenville-Spartanburg, South, South West, West or Central Florida.
If not for the warm spell it could be Atlanta, Metro DC, Providence,
Boston, the South Shore or Southern New Hampshire. Maybe I'm in none
of them and am in any one of a couple dozen other metro areas that are
healthy, some booming, all not Upstate, Central or Western New York.
Like I said, there are lots of places. And your population IS
shrinking; the regional population will dip below 700,000 in the next
5 years down from nearly a million fewer than 10 years ago. Your
taxes are more than double anybody else's and your services are
inferior to all of the above. There is nothing that you can do
Upstate that you can not do more of, better, and with well-maintained
facilities anywhere else and still use that golf course for golfing.
It's nice that you had a good day. I certainly hope that you did
because the numbers show that today also; more of your neighbor's jobs
moved away soon to be followed by your neighbors, your home may have
increased in value at the same rate as the CPI but more likely stayed
flat or even lost value (my home made me more than your annual take
home pay last year just by being). Your taxes remain 100% -150% above
mine.... and I pay far more than people do in many of the places
above. While your taxes rank at or near the top, your public services
rank near the bottom and your infrastructure strains under yet another
year of haphazard, patch work or deferred maintenance. What little
health your economy has is being drained by The City and that
accelerates ever year. Your region is on life support and would
strangle if the transfer of funds from my pocket to the corrupt
politicians there via Washington were ever to dry up. In short you
are the proverbial frog in a pot of water being brought to a boil and
are behaving as scripted.
As for that "oppressive heat" you fear. I would wager that if you
picked the hottest place that you could find and moved there, that you
could crank the AC low enough to keep yourself as cold as you wish for
a fraction of what you are overpaying right now to live without a
glimpse of the Sun from Labor Day to Memorial Day. Oh, by the way,
did I mention the outrageously high 7.5-cent kilowatt-hour electric
bills here? Oops, sorry. NYMO charges 11.5.
David Lentz
billnech wrote:
<snip>
>
> > two year degree for apprentices. If the public schools do not educate the
> > students for a college path they are dooming them to flipping burgers or
> > working similar menial, low paying jobs for the rest of their lives.
>
> I disagree that everyone needs to go to college..at least not to a four year
> college. There are plenty of jobs that don't require college...but that do
> require skills to do well.
>
> Public schools absolutely must prepare students for college. But they also
> must prepare those students who won't go to college for life.
I seem to recall, that twenty-two percent of jobs require a
college degree. The exact figure is not important. What is
important that increasing the number of people with bachelors
degrees will not increase the number of positions that require
bachelors degree. Kodak is going to hire a certain number of
chemical engineers. Increasing by ten fold the number of
chemical engineers will not increase the number of hires by
Kodak.
On the other side of the coin, I have worked with degrade person
in assembly jobs and seen non degrade persons in professional
jobs. A degree will get you an interview and may get you in the
door. a degree, itself, will not keep you employed in a
professional position. Conversely, an non degreed person may
have a harder time getting interviewed and hired. but can get and
keep a professional job if they show they can handle the job.
David
PyroDave
wrote:
I agree with you, Bill. I never went to college but entered an
apprenticeship for "eletro-mechanical repair. I spent not one day in a
college classroom. I got an excellent education in the real world.
Many people worked with me to educate me in the repair of some complex
equipment. My education continues daily with new problems and new
equipment. Also, my compensation for this job is higher than some
techs with a degree. My mechanical field is also in demand which makes
getting a job easier if I chose to change jobs.
Through the years I have gotten certified in PLC repair and
troubleshooting, PLC controlled mechanics, tool and die making
Industrial HVAC, Industrial pipe fitting and Instrumentation. In
addition to these areas, I have gotten some good instructions on
computers. Both hardware and software applications. This all came from
my employer.
Too many people get out of college and think they know everything. A
degree helps people get into the door. I won't argue that. But real
world knowledge gets things done.
billnech
<sander...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f11b6416.0301...@posting.google.com...
> "billnech" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:<avav91$doiol$1...@ID-103407.news.dfncis.de>...
> > <sander...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > And just where are you?
> >
> > As for T shirt in January, that equates to oppressive heat from May
through
> > September! Leave me out of it!
> >
> > Today, after doing some morning chores, I went over to the local golf
course
> > (five minutes away) for a couple of hours of cross country skiing. The
> > winter weather was glorious. The trees were all snow covered. The snow
was
> > soft and fluffy and skiing was excellent. People I met were all in a
good
> > mood. The sledding hills were full of kids having the times of their
lives.
> > It was simply excellent. I don't want to live where I can't have that.
>
> I could be in Seattle.
cost of living.
>Maybe Portland.
See Seattle but nicer. Still rains all winter.
>The Bay Area
SF is a beautiful city. Also just about the most expensive place to live in
the US
>or any one of
> several California Central Valley cities like Sacramento, Modesto,
> Fresno or Bakersfield.
Also no winter and many of those places are deathly hot in summer.
>I could also be in San Diego
Probably a perfect climate...if you don't care for seasonal changes. I do.
>or North County.
N Calif is indeed beautiful...probably next to Oregon the best place
mentioned yet. Not exactly booming though once you get north of the Bay
Area...except for tourism.
> Maybe Phoenix , Scottsdale, Mesa or Tucson.
Was in Phoenix in June. Was 115. No thanks! Tucson is a bit nicer...at
least they recognize that they're in a desert and embrace the beauty of it.
Also closer to mountains. Still, I prefer greenery. I love to visit the
desert...but I'm just not a desert kind of guy in the day to day world.
>Las Vegas
YAAAAAAAGGGGGGG!
>and Henderson
Where?
> are big time boomtowns but for that matter I could be in Denver,
One of the most polluted cities in the US...though the nearby mountains are
nice.
> Colorado Springs, Boulder,
Both nice places, though growing faster than they can contend with
>Dallas
Texas? Forgetaboutit! Also hot AND muggy in summer, way too conservative,
and then there are all those Cowboy fans and others who think football is
life.
> Albuquerque,
Some nice areas but lots of stinky desert slum too...
>Santa Fe
Sante Fe is indeed nice...and a nice climate. Also very expensive and
trendy...if you like that sort of thing.
> San Antonio,
Heard it's a nice town. Never been there. But oh those awful summers! And
flat! I like mountains!
> Plano, Houston or Huntsville.
Houston? Again one of the most polluted cities in the U.S. And hot and
muggy for half the year only broken up by hurricanes in the fall.
>Have you seen the stats from
> Mississippi lately?
Tent Lott country? Forgetaboutit! If you haven't figured it out, the South
just ain't my cup of tea. Too hot. Too flat (mostly). And way to
conservative.
>Might be there. Raleigh, Charlotte,
> Greenville-Spartanburg, South, South West, West or Central Florida.
Again HEAT. Did spend a week in Charlotte for a conference a couple of years
ago. Had some nice spots. But certainly not a cultural mecca.
> If not for the warm spell it could be Atlanta, Metro DC,
Huge sprawl...impossible traffic ... and EXPENSIVE (not to mention summer
heat)
>Providence,
> Boston, the South Shore or Southern New Hampshire.
Climate more to my liking. Love Boston. But awfully expensive. Better get
a good job to live there! And taxes are just as high as upstate NY.
>Maybe I'm in none
> of them and am in any one of a couple dozen other metro areas that are
> healthy, some booming, all not Upstate, Central or Western New York.
I've only been talking about the Albany area here, which is quite healthy.
Yes government jobs do help, though in the past decade there have been fewer
government jobs and more private sector jobs.
> Like I said, there are lots of places. And your population IS
> shrinking; the regional population will dip below 700,000 in the next
> 5 years down from nearly a million fewer than 10 years ago.
Actually, regional population grew slightly from 1990 to 2000: from 861,424
to 875,583. There's no reason to think it will shrin, especially since
businesses have been growing (while traditional big industries like GE
continue ot downsize)...growing businesses are keeping up and surpassing the
losses of the old dinosaurs.
>Your
> taxes are more than double anybody else's and your services are
> inferior to all of the above.
Taxes are high...but they're not much higher than other large metropolitan
states in the northeast, such as NJ, MA, CT. NH may have low state taxes,
but their property taxes are very high. As for services, I have good
schools, excellent libraries, police and fire services, outstanding trash
pickup, water and sewer that's always there, storm water systems, a great
park system, and a good road system. What more do I need? And that's in
one of the older cities with fiscal problems. Yeah there are problems as
there are in any older city....in ANY part of the country.
> There is nothing that you can do
> Upstate that you can not do more of, better, and with well-maintained
> facilities anywhere else and still use that golf course for golfing.
I don't golf. I do cross country ski. I won't live where I can't do that.
> It's nice that you had a good day. I certainly hope that you did
> because the numbers show that today also; more of your neighbor's jobs
> moved away soon to be followed by your neighbors, your home may have
> increased in value at the same rate as the CPI but more likely stayed
> flat or even lost value (my home made me more than your annual take
> home pay last year just by being).
Great if you already have a home. Try buying that first one! Oh, and by
the way, people are moving to the capital district. Quality of life and all
that.
>Your taxes remain 100% -150% above
> mine.... and I pay far more than people do in many of the places
> above.
Just wait. They'll catch up once the boom levels off.
>While your taxes rank at or near the top, your public services
> rank near the bottom and your infrastructure strains under yet another
> year of haphazard, patch work or deferred maintenance.
Actually the infrastructure is in pretty good shape. That's one thing NY
does keep up with. Roads are much, much better than I've seen in many other
parts of the county. What we can use though is more consolidation of
municipal services.
>What little
> health your economy has is being drained by The City and that
> accelerates ever year.
Actually, many people from The City are moving up here and buying up old
properties and rehabbing them, increasing property values in the process.
>Your region is on life support and would
> strangle if the transfer of funds from my pocket to the corrupt
> politicians there via Washington were ever to dry up.
NYS pays much more in federal taxes than it gets back. Much of that goes to
pet projects from the crooked southern politicians that run Washington.
>In short you
> are the proverbial frog in a pot of water being brought to a boil and
> are behaving as scripted.
NY was the first boom state. It has leveled off and there's some settling
out. We're comfortable while the boom town rats will hang out until things
begin to settle there and costs go up, then as is the American way, they'll
abandon that in serch of new places to ruin.
> As for that "oppressive heat" you fear. I would wager that if you
> picked the hottest place that you could find and moved there, that you
> could crank the AC low enough to keep yourself as cold as you wish for
> a fraction of what you are overpaying right now to live without a
> glimpse of the Sun from Labor Day to Memorial Day.
We get many, many sunny days in eastern upstate NY....wintery weather begins
in November and lasts until March or April with some glorious days in
between. September-October are wonderful months...lived with the windows
open. Give me open windows over AC any day! Frankly, I'm not fond of the
three weeks of heat we get here in mid summer, but I've learned to live with
it.
>Oh, by the way,
> did I mention the outrageously high 7.5-cent kilowatt-hour electric
> bills here? Oops, sorry. NYMO charges 11.5.
a closing nya nya nya? As for me, I can't complain. I moved here for a job
and stayed. I have a nice lifestyle and live in a beautiful part of the
country. So my taxes are high? Sorry, but I won't give up much of what I
love about the area to save a few thousand dollars a year in taxes and power
(while probably making that much less in salary).
To each his own. I certainly don't want the whole world moving here. So
stop trolling an upstate NY newsgroup already!
Jim Elbrecht
>
>"Jim Elbrecht" <Elbr...@email.com> wrote in message
>news:4deg1v8pld8g6nusr...@4ax.com...
>| "Steve Fleckenstein" <spf...@citlink.net> wrote:
>|
>| -snip-
>| >That leaves those left a chance at jobs like prison guard, gas station
>| >attendant, wal-mart, and politicians
>|
>| I'm curious how you came up with that group. The only thing I see
>| that ties them together is that no college is needed.
>
>Has nothing to do with education.
>
> Quite a few years ago I read or heard someone suggest that the only jobs
>available in the future would be those that protected things from getting
>stolen (security guards) or keeping people who steal in jail (prison
>guards).
I think they left out all the consumer driven fields-- and the less
well paying research fields. . . oh yeah, and then there's education,
that's a huge business. There will be no jobs making buggy whips,
but something will take their place. [writing software?]
> No matter how much it pays, based on tales told by friends who are
>prison guards and shrinks in prisons, I wouldn't want that job. There are
>some jobs that no matter how good the pay is it isn't worth the hassle.
But that's my point in this and the other thread. There *are* people
who want and are suited for those jobs.
I can think of a lot of jobs I'd less rather do than prison guard. I
was all set to go from a retail [designing/selling kitchens] job to a
corrections job many years ago. Circumstances changed, but I don't
think I'd have regretted the opportunity. I wouldn't be a Dr.,
Lawyer or politician for a gazillion $ a year. nor will I ever work
in retail again, and though all jobs involve some sort of sales, I
don't want to ever do anything involving 'real sales' again. But I
know a lady who has been an RN for 30 yrs and has spent the past year
'keeping store' for peanuts on weekends because she enjoys it. [it
isn't the money because she could make 4 times her store pay putting
in a shift at any local hospital]
-snip-
> The key to all these occupations , in my mind is they are less desirable
>positions, bringing in low money, lousy hours, physical and emotional abuse
>for pay received, compared perhaps to traditional blue or white collar jobs
>or "professionals". As a kid in college it wasn't below me to sweep a
>parking lot with a push broom for cash. I wouldn't want to do it till I
>retired.
Luckily we have a lot of folks in this country who feel the same way.
But just as luckily we have a lot of folks who would happy to sweep
floors. We're wasting time & money trying to get them ready for
college, or insisting that they go.
>
>A degree tells me you know the material well enough to pass the regents or
>college requirements.
Or that you are just a good test taker. My sister always knew her
subjects much better than I did. I would always score higher on the
tests.
>
>It doesn't prove the person can successfully function in a particular career
>or function in today's world.
>
>Education is more than studying to pass a series of benchmarks.
>
>Studying to only pass tests takes the education out of education.
We're agreeing here. But by requiring everyone to take a regents, NY
is pressuring the teachers to teach the test, not the subject. And
to reduce it to its lowest common denominator.
>
>Yes , I have a college degree. Yes, I have a good job. Yes , I have had some
>low end jobs on the way up.
We're in complete agreement on the testing thing. We just have
differing opinions on what a 'good job' is. [which is a good thing,
IMO, and something that the Regents ought to explore.]
Jm
jjp
snip
> >Dallas
> Texas? Forgetaboutit! Also hot AND muggy in summer, way too conservative,
> and then there are all those Cowboy fans and others who think football is
> life.
Dallas isn't really muggy, but it is very hot. And more conservative
than Austin and Houston. Also high crime and not very attractive as
far as landscape. I wouldn't want to live there.
> > San Antonio,
> Heard it's a nice town. Never been there. But oh those awful summers! And
> flat! I like mountains!
It's okay, but I think it's better as a tourist town than a place to
live.
> > Plano, Houston or Huntsville.
Plano is basically Dallas.
Huntsville has some nice scenery but it is conservative and small with
not much to do.
> Houston? Again one of the most polluted cities in the U.S. And hot and
> muggy for half the year only broken up by hurricanes in the fall.
The pollution is overblown by the media. The weather is uncomfortably
hot and muggy for only 3-4 months of the year, not half the year.
Right now, for example, it is beautiful outside... 50 degrees and
sunny. As far as hurricanes, they are not common... when was the last
time you heard of one hitting Houston? Houston also has great
restaurants and arts/culture, and is not as conservative as many
people may think -- having one of the country's largest gay
populations. Though it's flat, there are lots of trees and greenery
and nearby water recreation. I think it is actually the most
underrated large city in the country.
Steve Fleckenstein
. There will be no jobs making buggy whips,
| but something will take their place. [writing software?]
Perhaps if you want to move to India...
A little OT.. but see below.......
--------------------------------------------------------
March 21, 2001
Hi, I'm in Bangalore (but I Dare Not Tell)
By MARK LANDLER
BANGALORE, India,
March 15 - With frosted glass and funky amber lights playing off the
turquoise walls, the offices of Customer Asset look more
like a Santa Fe diner than a telephone call center in
southern India. The cultural vertigo is complete when
employees introduce themselves to a visitor.
"Hi, my name is Susan Sanders, and I'm from
Chicago," said C. R. Suman, 22, who is in fact a native of
Bangalore and fields calls from customers of a
telecommunications company in the United States.
Ms. Suman's fluent English and broad vowels would
pass muster in the stands at Wrigley Field. In case her
callers ask personal questions, Ms. Suman has
conjured up a fictional American life, with parents
Bob and Ann, brother Mark and a made-up business
degree from the University of Illinois.
"We watch a lot of `Friends' and `Ally McBeal' to learn the
right phrases," Ms. Suman said. "When people talk about their
Bimmer, you have to know they mean a BMW."
"Or when they say `No way, José,' there is no José,"
added Ms. Suman's co-worker, Nishara Anthony, who
goes by the name Naomi Morrison and, if asked, says
she comes from Perth Amboy, N.J.
The point of this pretense is to convince Americans
who dial toll- free numbers that the person on the
other end of the line works right nearby - not 8,300
miles away, in a country where static- free calls used
to be a novelty.
Call centers are a booming business in India, as
companies like General Electric and British Airways
set up supermarket-size phone banks to handle a daily
barrage of customer inquiries. The companies value
India for its widespread use of English and low-cost
labor.
But call centers are only the low end of a much larger
industry of Indian software developers, transcribers,
accountants, Web site designers and animation artists
who work on projects for foreign companies from
Indian offices. By 2008, such assignments will
generate 800,000 new jobs and $17 billion in revenue
for India, according to the consultants McKinsey &
Company.
"India is on its way to being the back office for the
world," said Shriram Ramdas, one of the founders of
Bangalore Labs, which manages Web sites and other
information networks for companies from a futuristic
office in the International Tech Park on the outskirts
of Bangalore.
Doing back-office chores for advanced economies
may not sound glamorous, especially for a nation that
has created an $8 billion computer software industry
virtually from scratch in the last decade. But it could
spread the wealth of India's technology revolution
beyond the pockets of prosperity that exist today in
Bangalore, Hyderabad and a few other hubs of high
technology.
"Right now, when you come to our campus, you're
leaving India behind," said N. R. Narayana Murthy,
the chairman of Infosys Technologies, one of India's
most successful software companies and the first to be
listed on Nasdaq. "We're living in a make-believe
world."
With its putting green, aerobics studio, basketball
court and even a deer park, the Infosys headquarters
is a powerful symbol of what technology has brought
to India since the late 1980's. Companies like Infosys
and the rival Wipro Ltd. are deeply embedded in the
microchips of dozens of the largest American
businesses.
Unlike Taiwan or South Korea, which became known
as low-cost producers of computer hardware, India
made its name as an unparalleled customer service
agent. While their American clients sleep, software
writers churn out code, which is then beamed by
satellite to the United States.
These services became so valuable that the founders
of Infosys and Wipro were able to take their
companies public at dot-com-like valuations. Mr.
Murthy became a billionaire, and stock options
showered unheard-of riches on even low-level
employees. The man who serves tea to Mr. Murthy
recently cashed in his options to buy a $100,000
house. His driver bought his own car.
About 2.8 million people work in India's technology
industry, even with a steady exodus of top software
developers to Silicon Valley or suburban Boston. Yet
the industry, despite its breakneck growth, still
accounts for only 2 percent of India's total economic
output of $450 billion.
For all the talk about the Indian technology
revolution, the technology industry has made only a
glancing impression on the physical landscape of the
country. Bangalore is ringed by technology parks that
could be in Palo Alto or Austin. But the city itself is a
mess, with potholed roads, crumbling buildings and a
ramshackle, overburdened airport with no
international flights.
For technology to make a dent in the pervasive
poverty of this country, Mr. Murthy contends, it must
account for 10 percent of India's gross domestic
product. At current growth rates, India will have a
$900 billion economy in 2010; technology would then
have to be a $90 billion industry. "We need to
broaden the base of technology in India," Mr. Murthy
said. "This new business will be very valuable as a
way to generate jobs for people who are not as skilled
as software programmers."
Although back-office work is not particularly
challenging for a company like Infosys, Mr. Murthy
said he would consider expanding into it, if only to
create thousands of more jobs in Bangalore.
Jobs in call centers are coveted here. While the
salaries are hardly lucrative by technology industry
standards - anywhere from $1,600 to $2,100 a year
- they beat those for most clerical positions.
"In the U.S., these jobs are taken by housewives or
kids who haven't decided what they want to do with
their lives," said K. Ghanesh, 39, the founder of
Customer Asset. "Here, they are career jobs for
college graduates."
The back-office business may help cushion India
from the economic slowdown in the United States. As
companies cut their spending on new computer
systems, Indian software producers are likely to feel
the pinch.
But routine work, like processing insurance claims or
settling credit card bills, goes on no matter what the
economic climate. Indeed, as companies look for
ways to cut costs, more of them may send such work
to India, where wages often run half those in the
United States.
Sending jobs abroad in uncertain times does not bring
good publicity to American companies. None of the
foreign clients of Customer Asset permit the company
to disclose their names, and the offices are
scrupulously bare of any reference to non- Indian
clients. A spokesman said only that Ms. Anthony and
Ms. Suman serve a telecommunications company
based in the United States.
It would not be the first time that America's misery is
India's opportunity.
Ashok Soota, a prominent technology executive who
recently started his own software consulting firm,
noted that India's high-technology industry was born
in 1991, a recession year, when American companies
first looked overseas for skilled, but cheap,
programmers to update their computer systems.
"This slowdown will force us to explore new
markets," Mr. Soota said. "But this time, there is
another factor - bandwidth."
In the last two years, India has installed reliable
high-capacity telephone lines in most of its major
cities. That makes it possible for people in this
country to communicate with customers in the United
States, by phone or over the Internet, with no
discernible difference from a calling center in
Nebraska.
The improved telephone network has essentially
erased the advantage of other countries that offer
back- office services - notably Ireland, one of the
growth leaders of the expensive new Europe.
India's greatest strength in this business may prove to
be its ability to adapt, chameleon-like, to its
customers. For a decade, Infosys, Wipro and others
have run development centers in the United States to
reduce the anxiety of American companies in dealing
with foreigners.
Now, companies here are blurring the line between
India and the United States further. Mr. Ramdas of
Bangalore Labs plans to relocate to Northern
California so he can live among his customers. Mr.
Soota's partner, Subroto Bagchi, also plans to move,
to North Jersey, in two months.
"We see ourselves as a next-generation company that
is neither Indian nor American," Mr. Bagchi said.
In recent years, the best engineers and programmers
left India for the United States. But as India's industry
has matured, émigrés are returning home to apply the
lessons of the American market in local companies. In
some cases, they bring home the culture as well.
At Customer Asset and other call centers, Indian
trainers who have lived in the United States drill new
employees in phonetics, American pop culture and
colloquialisms.
"If you're hiring people for Citibank," said Gayatri
Balaji, vice president for client services, "you want
them to know that bulls and bears are not just
different animals found in nature."
The regimen includes listening to the likes of
"Friends" and "Ally McBeal" without the picture, and
then reconstructing the dialogue. The new recruits are
put through role-playing sessions in which the trainer,
posing as a caller, interrogates them on American
movies, sports and television programs.
At Customer Asset, employees are allowed to fashion
their own telephone aliases and identities. Ms.
Anthony chose "Naomi Morrison" because, she said,
she has the same skin tone as the model Naomi
Campbell and is a fan of the late Jim Morrison.
"If I gave people my Indian name, it would be too
confusing," said Ms. Anthony, a 26-year-old from
Cochin, a coastal city. "The whole intention is for
them to understand us, and us to understand them."
And what happens if a caller asks too many
questions?
"When the conversation goes too deeply into
Chicago," Ms. Suman said, "you just ask politely,
`Can we get back to business?'"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------
There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental
illness."
billnech
"jjp" <jj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e795e9e2.03010...@posting.google.com...
> Right now, for example, it is beautiful outside... 50 degrees and
> sunny. As far as hurricanes, they are not common... when was the last
> time you heard of one hitting Houston?
I think it was 2001!
>Houston also has great
> restaurants and arts/culture, and is not as conservative as many
> people may think -- having one of the country's largest gay
> populations. Though it's flat, there are lots of trees and greenery
> and nearby water recreation. I think it is actually the most
> underrated large city in the country.
Well, most big cities do offer their share of culture. Still, it's too hot
and muggy for too long for me.
And people miss my main point: I don't want to live where there isn't
winter! I love winter recreation!
jjp
Maybe you're thinking of a tropical storm.
> >Houston also has great
> > restaurants and arts/culture, and is not as conservative as many
> > people may think -- having one of the country's largest gay
> > populations. Though it's flat, there are lots of trees and greenery
> > and nearby water recreation. I think it is actually the most
> > underrated large city in the country.
>
> Well, most big cities do offer their share of culture. Still, it's too hot
> and muggy for too long for me.
>
> And people miss my main point: I don't want to live where there isn't
> winter! I love winter recreation!
Well then you don't want to live anywhere south or directly on the west coast!
billnech
Now you're getting it!
David Schwartz
initiatives, high taxes, and a legislature that is tightly controlled.
Also, when you look at the quality of the candidates running for statewide
office over the years, you do not get a sense there is a long list of
capable leaders ready to step up and lead. For example, Hillery Clinton,
who I have nothing against, can walk in and beat anyone in state.
NYS has scenery, history, great neighbors, terrific climate, but
politically, the pits..
"drop GUN before emailing" <jyn...@aol.comGUN> wrote in message
news:20030101170423...@mb-ci.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Nice Area's to Live.
> >From: sander...@hotmail.com
> >Date: 1/1/03 4:56 PM Eastern
>
> >The only people who live anywhere in New York (outside of The City) in
> >order to pay the highest taxes in the nation for public services
> >substandard enough to do Mississippi proud, endure the weather, put up
> >with the over regulation of your
>
> >personal life, delcining standard of
> >living, blah, blah blah.... are A) trapped by circumstance 2) Have
> >never been anywhere in their lives with the possible execption of a
> >weekend at EPCOT 3) Are retarded or stupid beyond the abilitiy of
> >medical science to cope. More often than not, all three.
>
> As one who has lived, worked, served or visited many areas of the country
> (including Trent Lott's Misissippi), and now choose to live in WNY, I
have ONE
> comment; BULLSHIT.
>
>
>
> Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty)
> hometown.aol.com/jynndi/myhomepage/profile.html
> All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.
>
billnech
"David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:tjYT9.643375$%m4.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> I have to say this, politically, New York State is bad. No citizen
> initiatives, high taxes, and a legislature that is tightly controlled.
>
> Also, when you look at the quality of the candidates running for statewide
> office over the years, you do not get a sense there is a long list of
> capable leaders ready to step up and lead. For example, Hillery Clinton,
> who I have nothing against, can walk in and beat anyone in state.
>
> NYS has scenery, history, great neighbors, terrific climate, but
> politically, the pits..
Politically, many places are the pits. NYS has all the good things you
mention, and the state political system is indeed dysfunctional. However,
we do have an outstanding senior US Senator and a very good attorney
general. So good people CAN get elected. As for citizen initiative...it's
a two edged sword and one that I'd rather not wield. For instance, nobody
likes taxes and there would be lots of initiatives to cut them. When the
did that in California in the 70's, a previously excellent public school
system slowly sank into the toilet.
Citizen initiative has the same problems as the rest of politics...it takes
money and lots of it. So the moneyed interests are more likely to get their
pet issues on the ballot and to pass them with slick ad campaigns. And,
frankly, the moneyed interests don't often share my interests.
I agree that the legislative system is broken. The best way to fix it is to
take some responsibility and vote some people out of office. But people
don't seem to care enough to do that.
In any event...judging from the bozos in Congress, NY isn't the only place
with political problems.
Dave Hitt
wrote:
>Politically, many places are the pits. NYS has all the good things you
>mention, and the state political system is indeed dysfunctional. However,
>we do have an outstanding senior US Senator and a very good attorney
>general. So good people CAN get elected. As for citizen initiative...it's
>a two edged sword and one that I'd rather not wield. For instance, nobody
>likes taxes and there would be lots of initiatives to cut them. When the
>did that in California in the 70's, a previously excellent public school
>system slowly sank into the toilet.
The founding fathers were against direct democracy, and for good
reason. It comes down to three wolves and a sheep voting on what to
have for dinner. It's basically mob rule.
>Citizen initiative has the same problems as the rest of politics...it takes
>money and lots of it. So the moneyed interests are more likely to get their
>pet issues on the ballot and to pass them with slick ad campaigns. And,
>frankly, the moneyed interests don't often share my interests.
>
>I agree that the legislative system is broken. The best way to fix it is to
>take some responsibility and vote some people out of office. But people
>don't seem to care enough to do that.
The system is so rigged it's pretty difficult to get decent people in
place. And it's not just NYS, it seems to be a problem just about
anywhere. We no longer have a government of citizens, instead we have
an elite class who does what they damn well please, and only listens
to those who can pay them off.
>In any event...judging from the bozos in Congress, NY isn't the only place
>with political problems.
Our system is completely, thoroughly, corrupt. You and I don't have
enough money for "our" representatives to give a damn about what we
want.
David Schwartz
>
> "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:tjYT9.643375$%m4.2...@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net...
> > I have to say this, politically, New York State is bad. No citizen
> > initiatives, high taxes, and a legislature that is tightly controlled.
> >
> > Also, when you look at the quality of the candidates running for
statewide
> > office over the years, you do not get a sense there is a long list of
> > capable leaders ready to step up and lead. For example, Hillery
Clinton,
> > who I have nothing against, can walk in and beat anyone in state.
> >
> > NYS has scenery, history, great neighbors, terrific climate, but
> > politically, the pits..
>
> Politically, many places are the pits. NYS has all the good things you
> mention, and the state political system is indeed dysfunctional. However,
> we do have an outstanding senior US Senator and a very good attorney
> general. So good people CAN get elected. As for citizen
initiative...it's
> a two edged sword and one that I'd rather not wield. For instance, nobody
> likes taxes and there would be lots of initiatives to cut them. When the
> did that in California in the 70's, a previously excellent public school
> system slowly sank into the toilet.
I lived in NYS for about 40 years and I now live in Washington State. My
move west was all about a job. I had no desire to leave NYS, but there
really isn't a lot of high-tech industry in NYS, and I figured I would end
up leaving NYS, and that is what happened. FYI, I would like to add to my
list of Good Things about NYS, the system of higher education. There are
great private schools and the SUNY system is also very good. I got a good
education from SUNY, but was not able to stay in NYS. Certainly, the grass
is greener elsewhere.
It's interesting when you move to another state, and see how things work,
and compare it (for example) to NYS. Politically, many other places may, or
may not, be the pits. I've come to the conclusion that I really can't tell
about these things unless I actually live there. Then, it's real easy to
tell :-). But in any event, it is no good saying that your situation is the
pits, and then say that's OK because other situations are also the pits. In
my opinion :-).
Yes, good people can get elected. As to whether that results in good gov't
and a good system, is another matter (i.e. what happens when you put good
people in a bad system ??).
If people want their taxes cut, there will be less to spend, and services
wll be reduced. In Washington state, there is no state income tax, and
state gov't is constantly trying to "make ends meet". You see it in various
ways, but bottom line is $$ and when you keep more of what you earn, well,
that is the bottom line. :-). Let me give one example of how you see the
effect of lower gov't spending. In NYS, when I went to the polls to vote
each November, I voted in rather large, electronic voting machines. I
imagine that these machines were expensive to purchase, are expensive to
maintain, operate, and are expensive to store in a warehouse when we're not
voting. The whole things screams $$$$$. In Washington state, and let me
tell you, it was a shock to me when I first saw it, you vote on little
boards, punching out holes on paper ballots. I know this probably brings to
mind the 2000 presidential election and Florida, but paper punch-our ballots
do not have to cause the confusion that they did in Florida. For example,
in 2000, the election for US Senator from Wash. had to be recounted and the
winner only had a few 100 more votes than the loser, but there was no talk
about hanging chads. Everyone agreed on the outcome. I don't have the
dollar amounts, but it has to be much cheaper to purchase, operate,
maintain, and warehouse the little boards we vote on in Wash. state than the
large electronic machines you vote on in NYS. Just on example that really
jumpted out at me.
As with any change in the system, there is likely to be some pain. For
example, in Calif, when they slashed taxes, there was a sudden change and
some pain. I'll accept your description of the effect on Calif. public
schools, but this sort of thing may be predictable. In a state, like
Washington, where they are long used to doing more with less, the schools
seem to be fine :-).
>
> Citizen initiative has the same problems as the rest of politics...it
takes
> money and lots of it. So the moneyed interests are more likely to get
their
> pet issues on the ballot and to pass them with slick ad campaigns. And,
> frankly, the moneyed interests don't often share my interests.
I'm not sure about that. Here in Washington state, the initiative process
is VERY alive and well. Citizen intiiatives have had just an unbelievable
impact on life here. Let me give you one example, when I got here the
annual cost to register your automobile was based on a percentage of the
book value of the car. So, I had a brand new Honda Accord and I was paying
$300+ per year for my car registration. A citizen initiative was passed to
make car registration a $30 flat fee. Very popular with the people :-).
We've also had initiatives to make medical marijuane legal, limit civil
forfeiture and the list goes on.
As far as I can tell, moneyed interests are not getting their pet interests
on the ballot.
The pressure is always on Wash. state gov't to keep spending down and taxes
low.
As I recall, there is an initiative process in NYS, but the NYS initiative
process only allows the legislature to place initiatives on the ballot every
two years. In the early 90s, there were a couple of initiatives that would
have allowed the state to borrow more money, or spend more money, and both
of those were defeated.
billnech
One big difference between Washington and New York is that New York is much,
much bigger. Washington has one major media outlet and a few smaller ones.
NY has the biggest media outlet in the nation and a slew of medium sized
ones. That very nature makes statewide political campaigns very, very
expensive. Initiative campaigns would likewise be very expensive, bringing
it back to the moneyed interests.
The writer said that NY has a good education system. I wouldn't endanger
that for the sake of paying a few fewer dollars in taxes every year. In
California, public schools were devastated by Prop. 13 in the 70's. They
have slowly recovered judging from my conversations with California
residents. But even now, school activities that we take for granted, like
music and sports, are for fee activities in many California schools.
In Massachusetts, while I lived there (I grew up there and lived in the
state until I was 30), there was also a property tax limiting initiative.
Local governments got around that by simply raising everyone's assessment.
One difference that I see between Massachusetts and NY, though, is that in
Massachusetts, Politics is kind of a spectator sport. People pay much more
attention to it than they do in NY. I'm not certain why that's the case,
but in Massachusetts, conversations revolve around politics almost as much
as they revolve around the Red Sox. Even though the Democrats have long
been dominant (except for governor's elections), there are, or at least
were, competitive primaries all over the state....not like NY where the
entrenched powers make sure there are few primary elections. Perhaps there
is simply more of a tradition of "the Commonwealth" there...people taking
more responsibility for their leaders.
Another difference in Massachusetts is that people pay attention to state
government. If you look at the Metro NY media outlets, state government is
clearly an after thought. NYC government, or local government in the
suburbs, is what matters to people.
In the city where I grew up (Springfield), the city charter had done away
with partisan local elections. Elections for Mayor and City Council did not
include a party label. There were open primaries. The top two vote getters
for mayor would square off in the final. The top 16 vote getter for Council
would then run for the 8 seats. It seemed to work. People paid attention
to the people running and party made no difference. And there was always
competition.
David Schwartz
Well, if folk in NY are happy with the way things are, then probably
explains why things are the way they are. :-)
If "monied interests" would monopolize citizen initiatives in states with
larger populations (i.e. media outlets), why do they not do so in smaller
states (i.e. only one or two major population centers)?
This is not to say that "monied interests" or "the establishment" does not,
every once in a while, get an initiative on the ballot. For example, in the
last election, there was a initiative that would have let Wash. state gov't
spend more money (via taxes) on solving the transportation problem. We have
a lof of traffic jams in the Seattle area. Gov't was behind it, Boeing was
behind it, Microsoft was behind, all business was behind it. But the people
weren't behind it and it did not pass!!! So much for "monied interests".
:-)
Similarly, look at the examples I gave of NYS initiatives, where the NYS
gov't is the only one that can present initiaitves on the ballot (talk about
"monied interests"), and they failed. So, while money does get you a lot of
advantages in our society, having money does not mean you can buy the
passage of citizen initiatives. With all those great schools in NYS, you'd
think that people could make intelligent decisions :-)))
Citizen initiatives let the people work their will when the politicos won't
do it for them. Oregon approved physician assisted suicide. Many states
approves medical marijuana. The process is neutral, as to the issues. Just
because you have citizen initiatives does not mean you have to gut your
educational system. You can gut something else :-), or it doesn't even have
to be about taxes/public spending.
billnech
While I'd be happy with certain "lifestyle" initiatives, things always come
around to taxes. In most cases, voters will vote for lower taxes and
increased services. The examples you cited all had to do with opposition to
paying for something. Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to
die! Those are the issues with which I don't trust the public. I'd rather
have a representative form of government in which when politicians raise
taxes too high, they can get voted out. However in the tax and spending
deliberations, there needs to be more information than the typical voter (or
even me) can fully understand. That's my basic opposition to imitative.
There are some basic changes I'd like to see in New York. First, I'd like
to see the elimination of villages. There are about 600 of them in the
state and except for a few that are population centers in rural towns, most
serve no real function except to allow a few people to enact their own
zoning and build their own little empires. Then in metropolitan areas, I'd
move towards county level government and eliminate the cities and towns.
Not only does it cost us a great deal to support so many layers of local
government, but it also costs the state a great deal to support and work
with all of those local governments. Plus governments would then be able to
afford professional managers. And instead of having, say, 5 police chiefs
all making six figure salaries for a given area, there would be one.
Likewise with schools. Instead of, say, five expensive administrations in a
given area, there might be one. Granted the one would be larger than one
fifth of the five, but it would be much, much smaller than the existing five
combined.
David Schwartz
Actually, there is a recourse in the event that voters pass a bad
initiative: the courts. On more than one occasion, the courts have found an
initiative to be illegal, or they raise some such objection, and the
initiative is nullified. So, if you do not trust the public, you may have
more confidence in the public and the courts. So, it is not likely that an
initiative can be enacted that, to use your example, requires lower gov't
revenues and increased gov't services. For example, unless explicitly
specified, I don't think an initiative can bankrupt gov't.
In NYS, the initiative process would enjoy one safeguard not present in a
small state: the initiative would have to be acceptable to a very large
number of people. You probably couldn't get an initiative passed that only
had support in one region. I would say that if an initiative did pass in
NYS, that it would be a very good initiative, indeed.
For example, think of those Rockefeller drug laws. I bet that otherwise
liberal NYS would have overturned those laws if there was an initiative
process. Well, maybe.
>
> There are some basic changes I'd like to see in New York. First, I'd like
> to see the elimination of villages. There are about 600 of them in the
> state and except for a few that are population centers in rural towns,
most
> serve no real function except to allow a few people to enact their own
> zoning and build their own little empires. Then in metropolitan areas,
I'd
> move towards county level government and eliminate the cities and towns.
>
> Not only does it cost us a great deal to support so many layers of local
> government, but it also costs the state a great deal to support and work
> with all of those local governments. Plus governments would then be able
to
> afford professional managers. And instead of having, say, 5 police chiefs
> all making six figure salaries for a given area, there would be one.
> Likewise with schools. Instead of, say, five expensive administrations in
a
> given area, there might be one. Granted the one would be larger than one
> fifth of the five, but it would be much, much smaller than the existing
five
> combined.
Hey, if there was an initiative process ... :-)
Dave Hitt
<david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>In NYS, the initiative process would enjoy one safeguard not present in a
>small state: the initiative would have to be acceptable to a very large
>number of people. You probably couldn't get an initiative passed that only
>had support in one region. I would say that if an initiative did pass in
>NYS, that it would be a very good initiative, indeed.
If an initiative was very popular in NYC, and only had 50-50 support
in the rest of the state, it would pass.
I'd be more supportive of initiatives if they required a super
majority - 60, maybe 65%. For that matter, I'd like to see all laws
require that. (And only a simple majority to repeal a law.)
>For example, think of those Rockefeller drug laws. I bet that otherwise
>liberal NYS would have overturned those laws if there was an initiative
>process. Well, maybe.
You'd have the state itself, using our taxpayer dollars, running
endless ads against it. (The drug war is a VERY profitable battle for
the government, and as an added bonus can be used to convince the
sheeple to sacrifice more and more of their civil liberties.) Plus
all the nanny organizations doing the same thing.
Bill
> "billnech" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:avsngu$idd8l$1...@ID-103407.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> come
> > around to taxes. In most cases, voters will vote for lower taxes and
> > increased services. The examples you cited all had to do with opposition
> to
> > paying for something. Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to
> > die! Those are the issues with which I don't trust the public. I'd
> rather
> > have a representative form of government in which when politicians raise
> > taxes too high, they can get voted out. However in the tax and spending
> > deliberations, there needs to be more information than the typical voter
> (or
> > even me) can fully understand. That's my basic opposition to imitative.
>
> Actually, there is a recourse in the event that voters pass a bad
> initiative: the courts. On more than one occasion, the courts have found an
> initiative to be illegal, or they raise some such objection, and the
> initiative is nullified. So, if you do not trust the public, you may have
> more confidence in the public and the courts. So, it is not likely that an
> initiative can be enacted that, to use your example, requires lower gov't
> revenues and increased gov't services. For example, unless explicitly
> specified, I don't think an initiative can bankrupt gov't.
That only works if a referendum is unconstitutional. There would
never be a single referendum that cuts taxes while increasing
services. But there have been a number of referenda that cap taxes,
often resulting in cuts of services beyond reason. Like I said,
nobody likes to pay taxes, but there are indeed a necessary evil.
> In NYS, the initiative process would enjoy one safeguard not present in a
> small state: the initiative would have to be acceptable to a very large
> number of people. You probably couldn't get an initiative passed that only
> had support in one region. I would say that if an initiative did pass in
> NYS, that it would be a very good initiative, indeed.
> For example, think of those Rockefeller drug laws. I bet that otherwise
> liberal NYS would have overturned those laws if there was an initiative
> process. Well, maybe.
>
Then you go back to the cost of supporting an initiative. Only the
most organized and moneyed groups could afford the type of publicity
needed to get the state's voters behind an initiative. Yeah, there
could be some positive results, like the Rockefeller drug laws. But
you'd also have referenda to cap school taxes without an alternative
funding mechanism. That, in my opinion, would harm the state.
> >
> > There are some basic changes I'd like to see in New York. First, I'd like
> > to see the elimination of villages. There are about 600 of them in the
> > state and except for a few that are population centers in rural towns,
> most
> > serve no real function except to allow a few people to enact their own
> > zoning and build their own little empires. Then in metropolitan areas,
> I'd
> > move towards county level government and eliminate the cities and towns.
> >
> > Not only does it cost us a great deal to support so many layers of local
> > government, but it also costs the state a great deal to support and work
> > with all of those local governments. Plus governments would then be able
> to
> > afford professional managers. And instead of having, say, 5 police chiefs
> > all making six figure salaries for a given area, there would be one.
> > Likewise with schools. Instead of, say, five expensive administrations in
> a
> > given area, there might be one. Granted the one would be larger than one
> > fifth of the five, but it would be much, much smaller than the existing
> five
> > combined.
>
> Hey, if there was an initiative process ... :-)
Good thought. Complex idea...and with lots of powered interests who
want things to stay the way they are, this would be very difficult to
pass. For example, village leaders would be up in arms about how
people will lose their communities. That's a powerful message.
Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
David Schwartz
"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:272503be.03011...@posting.google.com...
How much money do you think it costs to support an initiative?
Unless powered and monied interests can stop the truth from being told, they
will not have as much influence as you imply.
>
> Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
> initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
Based on what I have seen in Washington, the good outweighs the bad. It
lets the people work their will on issues where legislators dare not tread,
and it gets people involved. I haven't seen an initiative pass here that I
thought was bad.
David Schwartz
"Dave Hitt" <BoydoIhat...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:j4r52vg0on15ndg2v...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 04:48:43 GMT, "David Schwartz"
> <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>
> >In NYS, the initiative process would enjoy one safeguard not present in a
> >small state: the initiative would have to be acceptable to a very large
> >number of people. You probably couldn't get an initiative passed that
only
> >had support in one region. I would say that if an initiative did pass in
> >NYS, that it would be a very good initiative, indeed.
>
> If an initiative was very popular in NYC, and only had 50-50 support
> in the rest of the state, it would pass.
OK, then it should pass. I always suspected that most of the laws passed in
NYS were because of NYC, anyway :-)
>
> I'd be more supportive of initiatives if they required a super
> majority - 60, maybe 65%. For that matter, I'd like to see all laws
> require that. (And only a simple majority to repeal a law.)
That would be a place to start.
>
> >For example, think of those Rockefeller drug laws. I bet that otherwise
> >liberal NYS would have overturned those laws if there was an initiative
> >process. Well, maybe.
>
> You'd have the state itself, using our taxpayer dollars, running
> endless ads against it. (The drug war is a VERY profitable battle for
> the government, and as an added bonus can be used to convince the
> sheeple to sacrifice more and more of their civil liberties.) Plus
> all the nanny organizations doing the same thing.
Let 'em. It's their risk, and if it passes, they are shown to be out of
touch with the people.
billnech
>
>>
> How much money do you think it costs to support an initiative?
> >
> > Good thought. Complex idea...and with lots of powered interests who
> > want things to stay the way they are, this would be very difficult to
> > pass. For example, village leaders would be up in arms about how
> > people will lose their communities. That's a powerful message.
>
> Unless powered and monied interests can stop the truth from being told,
they
> will not have as much influence as you imply.
In the media capital of the nation, it takes lots of big bucks to get people
to pay attention to any message. Or it takes Rupert Murdoch to make an
issue out of it...but he usually doesn't take my side.
> >
> > Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
> > initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
>
> Based on what I have seen in Washington, the good outweighs the bad. It
> lets the people work their will on issues where legislators dare not
tread,
> and it gets people involved. I haven't seen an initiative pass here that
I
> thought was bad.
Again, Washington is a much, much smaller state. In a state that size, a
statewide citizen initiative is much more likely to get notice and media
attention. Even there, though, I imagine that the people in eastern
Washington complain about Seattle types running everything!
David Schwartz
>
> "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:P6NU9.552170$GR5.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> >
> >>
> > How much money do you think it costs to support an initiative?
> In New York? Millions!
>
> > >
> > > Good thought. Complex idea...and with lots of powered interests who
> > > want things to stay the way they are, this would be very difficult to
> > > pass. For example, village leaders would be up in arms about how
> > > people will lose their communities. That's a powerful message.
> >
> > Unless powered and monied interests can stop the truth from being told,
> they
> > will not have as much influence as you imply.
> In the media capital of the nation, it takes lots of big bucks to get
people
> to pay attention to any message. Or it takes Rupert Murdoch to make an
> issue out of it...but he usually doesn't take my side.
The newspapers cover newsworthy items, and they do not charge money to print
articles. I believe that grass roots action is possible.
I believe that you've said previously that monied interests or powerful
interests would get involved in initiatives. Monied interests and powerful
interests already have a way to get laws enacted, its called campaign
contributions to all politicians. You will not see monied interests or
powerful interests collecting petition signatures.
>
> > >
> > > Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
> > > initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
> >
> > Based on what I have seen in Washington, the good outweighs the bad. It
> > lets the people work their will on issues where legislators dare not
> tread,
> > and it gets people involved. I haven't seen an initiative pass here
that
> I
> > thought was bad.
> Again, Washington is a much, much smaller state. In a state that size, a
> statewide citizen initiative is much more likely to get notice and media
> attention. Even there, though, I imagine that the people in eastern
> Washington complain about Seattle types running everything!
Getting an initiative passed requires a political network, and usually a
leader. In California, they had Howard Jarvis. In Washington, it is Tim
Eyman. If an initiative does not get peoples' attention, then the
initiative fails. No harm there, eh? If an initiative is good, it will
capture peoples' imagination and it will take off, the publicity will
follow.
billnech
>
>
> Getting an initiative passed requires a political network, and usually a
> leader. In California, they had Howard Jarvis. In Washington, it is Tim
> Eyman. If an initiative does not get peoples' attention, then the
> initiative fails. No harm there, eh? If an initiative is good, it will
> capture peoples' imagination and it will take off, the publicity will
> follow.
Wasn't Jarvis the guy behind Prop 13? That was an incredible disaster!
Which if he is the guy, proves my point. People will always vote for lower
taxes, regardless of the cost.
In NY, the most organized statewide political groups, aside from the parties
themselves, are groups like the Business Council. Unfortunately, the good
government groups have fallen into the NYPIRG trap of using college kids
without a full grasp of the issues to knock on doors ...thus raising money
but discrediting the organizations. Due to the size and complexity of the
state, I simply don't see an effective statewide good government forming in
the near future.
David Schwartz
>
> "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:Bm7V9.685808$P31.520404@rwcrnsc53...
> >
> >
> > Getting an initiative passed requires a political network, and usually a
> > leader. In California, they had Howard Jarvis. In Washington, it is
Tim
> > Eyman. If an initiative does not get peoples' attention, then the
> > initiative fails. No harm there, eh? If an initiative is good, it will
> > capture peoples' imagination and it will take off, the publicity will
> > follow.
>
> Wasn't Jarvis the guy behind Prop 13? That was an incredible disaster!
> Which if he is the guy, proves my point. People will always vote for
lower
> taxes, regardless of the cost.
Generally, one example does not prove a point :-)
A quick search of the internet reveals mostly positive things to say about
Prop. 13. Why do you say it is a disaster? Was it a disaster for you?
It seems to have been and still be the will of the people of Calif., having
been the law of the land for more than 20 years. It passed by a large
majority. Do you think it is still a disaster today? If yes, why?
>
> In NY, the most organized statewide political groups, aside from the
parties
> themselves, are groups like the Business Council. Unfortunately, the good
> government groups have fallen into the NYPIRG trap of using college kids
> without a full grasp of the issues to knock on doors ...thus raising money
> but discrediting the organizations. Due to the size and complexity of the
> state, I simply don't see an effective statewide good government forming
in
> the near future.
NY is indeed a large, diverse state, where citizens are not especially
empowered
Dave Hitt
<david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>Unless powered and monied interests can stop the truth from being told, they
>will not have as much influence as you imply.
Powerful and moneyed interests *create* their own truth, and the
public nods in agreement. For instance: Quick, how many people die
each year from second hand tobacco smoke? Real answer: Zero. If you
answered anything else you're under the influence of very powerful,
very well funded organizations who have created a "truth" that bears
no revaluation to reality.
>> Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
>> initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
>
>Based on what I have seen in Washington, the good outweighs the bad.
Must be a different washington. Our system is thoroughly corrupt and
rotten to the core. It is possible to buy whatever legislation you
want, and damn near impossible to get anything serious done if you're
not very wealthy.
Dave Hitt
wrote:
>Wasn't Jarvis the guy behind Prop 13? That was an incredible disaster!
I have to disagree with you on that.
People were losing their homes to taxes. They'd buy a house, live in
it for ten or twenty years, and watch as the houses around them sold
for more and more and more. Since property value is very dependent on
the value of similar, nearby properties, their property value, and
their taxes, were skyrocketing. Someone who bought a modestly priced
home suddenly lived in a quarter million dollar home, with the
resultant tax burden. People were having to sell their homes because
they couldn't afford the rising taxes.
Prop 13 was a way for people to keep their homes from being taken from
them by the government. That was a good thing. It also showed the
folly of using property taxes to pay for schools. Also a good thing.
The government was too moribund to react creatively (such as using a
portion of other taxes for schools, charging illegal aliens for
schooling, putting some of the burden on parents, etc), and *that* is
what made it a disaster. People can't be blamed for defending their
homes.
David Schwartz
> On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 05:20:47 GMT, "David Schwartz"
> <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>
> >Unless powered and monied interests can stop the truth from being told,
they
> >will not have as much influence as you imply.
>
> Powerful and moneyed interests *create* their own truth, and the
> public nods in agreement. For instance: Quick, how many people die
> each year from second hand tobacco smoke? Real answer: Zero. If you
> answered anything else you're under the influence of very powerful,
> very well funded organizations who have created a "truth" that bears
> no revaluation to reality.
My answer was, 'I don't know". Does that mean I am "under the influence of
very powerful, very well funded organizations who have created a "truth"
that bears no revaluation to reality."??
>
> >> Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
> >> initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
> >
> >Based on what I have seen in Washington, the good outweighs the bad.
>
> Must be a different washington. Our system is thoroughly corrupt and
> rotten to the core. It is possible to buy whatever legislation you
> want, and damn near impossible to get anything serious done if you're
> not very wealthy.
Washington state, where I live now.
billnech
>
> "billnech" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:b058aa$lj05r$1...@ID-103407.news.dfncis.de...
> >
> > "David Schwartz" <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:Bm7V9.685808$P31.520404@rwcrnsc53...
> > >
> > >
> > > Getting an initiative passed requires a political network, and usually
a
> > > leader. In California, they had Howard Jarvis. In Washington, it is
> Tim
> > > Eyman. If an initiative does not get peoples' attention, then the
> > > initiative fails. No harm there, eh? If an initiative is good, it
will
> > > capture peoples' imagination and it will take off, the publicity will
> > > follow.
> >
> > Wasn't Jarvis the guy behind Prop 13? That was an incredible disaster!
> > Which if he is the guy, proves my point. People will always vote for
> lower
> > taxes, regardless of the cost.
>
> Generally, one example does not prove a point :-)
>
> A quick search of the internet reveals mostly positive things to say about
> Prop. 13. Why do you say it is a disaster? Was it a disaster for you?
>
> It seems to have been and still be the will of the people of Calif.,
having
> been the law of the land for more than 20 years. It passed by a large
> majority. Do you think it is still a disaster today? If yes, why?
Perhaps you're not old enough to remember Prop 13. I am. Prior to the law,
California public schools were deemed to be among the best in the nation.
Since, anyone with the means sends their kids to private school. That's
what I call a disaster.
Granted, I don't live in California. But when I travel, I talk to people
about their local areas. And this is what I hear from Californians.
billnech
I certainly agree that there should be other means than the property tax to
pay for schools. However, when schools are deemed to be poor, property
values fall. As I said in my initial post, nobody votes for higher
taxes...at least not directly.
If Calif. schools have recovered somewhat, it would be from some combination
of state or other alternative funding and the fact that tax assessments
continue to go up with rising property values. Also, those with means there
tend to use private schools, relieving the public schools of some cost while
maintaining the taxes that support them.
Dave Hitt
<david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>"Dave Hitt" <BoydoIhat...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:9ejd2vcof06539bdv...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 05:20:47 GMT, "David Schwartz"
>> <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Unless powered and monied interests can stop the truth from being told,
>they
>> >will not have as much influence as you imply.
>>
>> Powerful and moneyed interests *create* their own truth, and the
>> public nods in agreement. For instance: Quick, how many people die
>> each year from second hand tobacco smoke? Real answer: Zero. If you
>> answered anything else you're under the influence of very powerful,
>> very well funded organizations who have created a "truth" that bears
>> no revaluation to reality.
>
>My answer was, 'I don't know". Does that mean I am "under the influence of
>very powerful, very well funded organizations who have created a "truth"
>that bears no revaluation to reality."??
No, it indicates that you don't swallow numbers just because they've
been repeated over and over again. That puts you in a distinct
minority.
>> >> Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
>> >> initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
>> >
>> >Based on what I have seen in Washington, the good outweighs the bad.
>>
>> Must be a different washington. Our system is thoroughly corrupt and
>> rotten to the core. It is possible to buy whatever legislation you
>> want, and damn near impossible to get anything serious done if you're
>> not very wealthy.
>
>Washington state, where I live now.
Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were discussing DC. I have no idea
of the level of rottenness in Washington State's government.
David Schwartz
> On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 17:32:27 GMT, "David Schwartz"
> <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dave Hitt" <BoydoIhat...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
> >news:9ejd2vcof06539bdv...@4ax.com...
> >> On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 05:20:47 GMT, "David Schwartz"
> >> <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> >Unless powered and monied interests can stop the truth from being
told,
> >they
> >> >will not have as much influence as you imply.
> >>
> >> Powerful and moneyed interests *create* their own truth, and the
> >> public nods in agreement. For instance: Quick, how many people die
> >> each year from second hand tobacco smoke? Real answer: Zero. If you
> >> answered anything else you're under the influence of very powerful,
> >> very well funded organizations who have created a "truth" that bears
> >> no revaluation to reality.
> >
> >My answer was, 'I don't know". Does that mean I am "under the influence
of
> >very powerful, very well funded organizations who have created a "truth"
> >that bears no revaluation to reality."??
>
> No, it indicates that you don't swallow numbers just because they've
> been repeated over and over again. That puts you in a distinct
> minority.
I like being distinct.
>
>
> >> >> Bottom line...while some good things can be accomplished through
> >> >> initiative, I fear that more bad things would pass.
> >> >
> >> >Based on what I have seen in Washington, the good outweighs the bad.
> >>
> >> Must be a different washington. Our system is thoroughly corrupt and
> >> rotten to the core. It is possible to buy whatever legislation you
> >> want, and damn near impossible to get anything serious done if you're
> >> not very wealthy.
> >
> >Washington state, where I live now.
>
> Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were discussing DC. I have no idea
> of the level of rottenness in Washington State's government.
Not so rotten, I don't think. In any event, the people of Washington state
do not give their gov't enough money to be spoiled rotten.
David Schwartz
Actually, I am old enough to remember Prop 13, but that doesn't mean I was
familiar with the Calif. school system. In any event, I believe that it is
the right of the people in a state to determine the level of funding that
schools gets. It is possible that the people of Calif. did not want to pay
the bill for schools that were "among the best in the nation". It does not
make them evil, or stupid -- it was simply a legitimate public policy
decision, now another state gets to have schools that are among the best in
the nation :-) Are you saying that people with means do not send their kids
to private schools in other states, like NY?
Dave Hitt
<david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>> Sorry, my mistake. I thought you were discussing DC. I have no idea
>> of the level of rottenness in Washington State's government.
>
>Not so rotten, I don't think. In any event, the people of Washington state
>do not give their gov't enough money to be spoiled rotten.
And that may be the key. The less government we have, the better, and
giving them as little money as possible is the only way to keep them
small.
Bill
>
>
> Actually, I am old enough to remember Prop 13, but that doesn't mean I was
> familiar with the Calif. school system. In any event, I believe that it is
> the right of the people in a state to determine the level of funding that
> schools gets. It is possible that the people of Calif. did not want to pay
> the bill for schools that were "among the best in the nation". It does not
> make them evil, or stupid -- it was simply a legitimate public policy
> decision, now another state gets to have schools that are among the best in
> the nation :-) Are you saying that people with means do not send their kids
> to private schools in other states, like NY?
Well, in New York City, I know that it's normal for middle class
people to send their kids to private school. But outside of New York
City, most people send their kids to public schools and support the
concept of public schools. Of course there are parochial schools as
well but they're shrinking rather than growing. For the most part,
it's mainly just the rich in NY outside of NYC who use private schools
(with exceptions, of course).
I don't believe citizens should vote directly on school budgets. I
think we should elect people to school boards who represent our
interests. For me to vote intelligently on a budget, I need to know
details about how that money is to be spent. You can only know that
by attending budget meetings, understanding the contracts involved or
so forth.
In NY the only budget we vote on directly is the school budget.
People often vote them down merely because we're pissed off at taxes
and it's the only direct way to vent that frustration. In turn, the
state has enacted safeguards such that even a voted down school budget
doesn't change a great deal, though it does upset the budget process
and leads to cuts in the few cost items that aren't mandated (like
music, sports, and library support).
About six years ago, small cities in NY were provided the right to
vote on school budgets directly for the first time. Since then,
school board races have become less competitive as budget issues have
faded from prominence as a school board candidate issue.
I want to see people pay attention to their elected representatives
and vote them out when they don't represent our interests. Rule by
initiative, in my opinion, is little better than mob rule.
David Schwartz
"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:272503be.03011...@posting.google.com...
> I want to see people pay attention to their elected representatives
> and vote them out when they don't represent our interests. Rule by
> initiative, in my opinion, is little better than mob rule.
Yeah, and I want peace on Earth and goodwill to all men :-)
Mob rule is bad. Citizens being able to get an initiative on the ballot is
not bad, and can be very, very good.
I find it interesting to live in a state (Wash) that has citizen
initiatives, especially having lived in NYS most of my life. I would not
characterize Washington state as being under mob rule, and neither would I
characterize any other state as being under mob rule, (unless you consider a
legislature to be a mob :-))), and I understand that about 1/2 the states
allow citizen initiatives.
FYI, I found the following URL on this subject.:
http://frontpage.auburn.edu/tann/tann2/rating4.htm
Dave Hitt
<david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
>"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
>news:272503be.03011...@posting.google.com...
>> I want to see people pay attention to their elected representatives
>> and vote them out when they don't represent our interests. Rule by
>> initiative, in my opinion, is little better than mob rule.
>
>Yeah, and I want peace on Earth and goodwill to all men :-)
>
>Mob rule is bad. Citizens being able to get an initiative on the ballot is
>not bad, and can be very, very good.
You just contradicted yourself. Initiative is mob rule.
David Schwartz
> On Sat, 18 Jan 2003 08:43:49 GMT, "David Schwartz"
> <david.s...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bill" <bill...@msn.com> wrote in message
> >news:272503be.03011...@posting.google.com...
> >> I want to see people pay attention to their elected representatives
> >> and vote them out when they don't represent our interests. Rule by
> >> initiative, in my opinion, is little better than mob rule.
> >
> >Yeah, and I want peace on Earth and goodwill to all men :-)
> >
> >Mob rule is bad. Citizens being able to get an initiative on the ballot
is
> >not bad, and can be very, very good.
>
> You just contradicted yourself. Initiative is mob rule.
Well, as long as the mobs are making good decisions, what harm?