What i cannot really understand is ....
vasif@fisav
you seem to be conveniently forgetting that there was the little
question of WW1 going on at the time. you are also forgetting that
your masters were trying to carve up the ottoman empire and used you
as their stooges. you also seem not to be aware that the ottoman
state was fighting on several fronts all at the same time. something
else that you seem not to be taking into consideration is that at the
instigation and with the material support of outside powers your
people were staging an armed uprising within the state acting as a
fifth column. relocation was put into effect under such conditions.
what would you have done if you had the job of holding the empire
together? and never mind what today's criteria are supposed to be.
you are back in 1915. now tell us what YOU would have done.
you are not by any chance trying to tell us that you were angels?
you must be aware of the relocation of various ethnicities in the
soviet union in WW2. you must be also aware of what happened to the
japanese community in the US after just one japanese bombing. idealism
is one thing, pragmatism another. in the real world you have to take
actions in circumstances that are not very conducive to humanitarian
thinking.
you fought. you lost. that's the way of the world. i am sure both
sides suffered inhuman and unnecessary losses. i am also sure that
there are skeletons rattling in both cupboards. but you will never
convince any right thinking person that what happened was genocide as
such. for then we can also start talking about the genocide of the
turks/moslems at the hands of armenians.
and as an armenian friend of mine told me while we were cycling to
school in cyprus= as my father said, he said, the turks were not to
blame. such and such a country armed us and incited us against the
turks....
if every massacre were to be termed genocide, then every nation would
be guilty of a multitude of genocides.
all that you will ever achieve by your methods is to drive the wedge
further in between turks and armenians. of all the armenians that i
met during my lifetime, one was openly hostile toward turks and one
other was covertly but insidiously hostile. in my honest estimation,
there are proportionately far less turks hostile to armenians than the
other way round. however, i have to admit that a lot of turks consider
armenians more or less in the same category as an unfaithful and
treacherous spouse and can't understand why they betrayed the ottoman
empire under which for centuries they prospered and held high ranking
jobs.
but then the evil of nationalism became a phenomenon at the turn of
the century. and it is still taking its toll all over the world.
what i cannot really understand is that if turks were guilty of
genocide, how come most of the armenians who migrated to cyprus
settled mostly in turkish quarters of major towns there? how can this
be explained? it does not make sense that a people fleeing another
country would settle among the same people as those who committed
genocide against them
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
Vaspoorakan wrote in message <8s8bsa$l3u$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I have a suggestion: maybe we should apply your logic on the Turks of
>Northern Cyprus. To the government in Nicosia, they were no doubt a
>treacherous, rebellious minority.
>
>The Greek Cypriots should have asked the Syrians for permission
>to 'relocate' the Turkish Cypriots to the very same places Armenians
>were 'relocated' to in 1915, with the very same rations and under the
>very same conditions.
>
>Let's see what the survival rate would have been then. I'm sure the
>Turkish government would have been quite understanding, taking into
>account its attitude to the Armenian Genocide.
>
>Also, we should advise the Russian government to start deporting its
>Chechen citizens, on foot, to sites some 1000 Km. away from Chechnya;
>again, following your logic, they would be entirely justified in
doing
>so, after all, if the Chechens aren't rebellious, who is? Perhaps
you
>could send some Turkish advisors to help them on how to death-march a
>rebellious minority?
>
>You see, the world would be a scary place for everyone if Turkey's
>logic - it was OK because they were traitors - is consequentially
>followed everywhere.
>
>Regards,
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
t c
demand a response according to the Ottoman ally Germany, you are inferior
as you claim your property on Cyprus should be restored on lesser grounds
( you consider your house more valuable than lives), you will never be
human without great change.
REAL
> Vaspookaran,
>
> you seem to be conveniently forgetting that there was the little
> question of WW1 going on at the time. you are also forgetting that
> your masters were trying to carve up the ottoman empire and used you
> as their stooges. you also seem not to be aware that the ottoman
> state was fighting on several fronts all at the same time. something
> else that you seem not to be taking into consideration is that at the
> instigation and with the material support of outside powers your
> people were staging an armed uprising within the state acting as a
> fifth column. relocation was put into effect under such conditions.
How does this explain Armenian women, children and old men being sent to
the Syrian desert?
t c
work for fascists are often stupid.
Edith
ottoman
empire......man, do u really believe in what u are writing down? For last
centuries Armenians had been leaving their homes, land of their ancestors
to save the lives of their families. Aivazovskii, the great seascape painter
,
hung all his rewards, which he had awarded by turk's sultan, on his dog and
walked it through all streets in Feodosia ( Russia) to the sea, when next
ship had arrived from turkey to his town full of Armenian refugees. Tell me,
why they have to leave "prosper live" and came to new place without nothing
to start all over again? History is full of example of that "prosper live".
If somebody fights for his rights, it doesn't mean that he is a
nationalist.
--
Edith
"vasif@fisav" <va...@fisav.swinternet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8sft90$1ei$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Nevzat Akdemir
>
> I am sick and tired to read here about how good Armenians lived under
> ottoman
> empire......man, do u really believe in what u are writing down? For last
> centuries Armenians had been leaving their homes, land of their ancestors
> to save the lives of their families.
Ottomans did the mistake of promoting some boot lickers too high.
Gave them the misconception of they were better than others. This
misconception still lingers today in some of Macreau's posts as
"..even Armenians wrote the Turk's music for them..." etc.
What they should have done is bringing in racism, getting the
ethnicities
against each other and destroy each other like some very civilized
Western Countries do today, and then, everything should have been a rose
garden for them. I bet you wouldn't find anyone talking about any false
genocide claims now because they were all going to be something else
other
then Armenians or Greeks or etc...
> Aivazovskii, the great seascape painter
> ,
> hung all his rewards, which he had awarded by turk's sultan, on his dog and
> walked it through all streets in Feodosia ( Russia) to the sea, when next
> ship had arrived from turkey to his town full of Armenian refugees. Tell me,
> why they have to leave "prosper live" and came to new place without nothing
> to start all over again? History is full of example of that "prosper live".
> If somebody fights for his rights, it doesn't mean that he is a
> nationalist.
Every great artist is a genius and every genius is a bit crazy.
But I guess yours wasn't so much so.
If he did that in Istanbul, in front of the Palace, I'd understand, he
was a great artist.
Why would you be writing all this and make your own heros look so cheap
is beyond me. But given that you *just* learned that *other* newsgroups
exists too, we have to be patient with you. :))
Edith
--
Edith
"Nevzat Akdemir" <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:39EC9EF4...@bellsouth.net...
> Edith wrote:
> >
> > I am sick and tired to read here about how good Armenians lived under
> > ottoman
> > empire......man, do u really believe in what u are writing down? For
last
> > centuries Armenians had been leaving their homes, land of their
ancestors
> > to save the lives of their families.
>
>
> Ottomans did the mistake of promoting some boot lickers too high.
What are you, "half turk and half k...", trying to say?Is it that one of
your "half" practicing it to show its loyalty? Couldn't this "half" find
another way, or it's the only possible one in the current political
situation in your country?
> Gave them the misconception of they were better than others.
Is it what you have been given for spreading lies here?.... Such a
price?!.... Feeling better...?
>This
> misconception still lingers today in some of Macreau's posts as
> "..even Armenians wrote the Turk's music for them..." etc.
>
> What they should have done is bringing in racism, getting the
> ethnicities
> against each other and destroy each
I know facts of such political line in ottoman empire.Give me only one
example that Armenian have done it.
> other like some very civilized
> Western Countries do today, and then, everything should have been a rose
> garden for them. I bet you wouldn't find anyone talking about any false
> genocide claims now
Don't bet.....oops,.. you lost. :)
>because they were all going to be something else
> other
> then Armenians or Greeks or etc...
Don't speak for everyone in this planet......
> > Aivazovskii, the great seascape painter
> > ,
> > hung all his rewards, which he had awarded by turk's sultan, on his dog
and
> > walked it through all streets in Feodosia ( Russia) to the sea, when
next
> > ship had arrived from turkey to his town full of Armenian refugees. Tell
me,
> > why they have to leave "prosper live" and came to new place without
nothing
> > to start all over again? History is full of example of that "prosper
live".
> > If somebody fights for his rights, it doesn't mean that he is a
> > nationalist.
>
>
> Every great artist is a genius and every genius is a bit crazy.
> But I guess yours wasn't so much so.
According to your massages it's not in your power to guess, who is a
genius. Ayvazovskii is one of the best seascape painter till these days.
It's useful sometimes to peep in encyclopedia, specially when you have any
idea whom I'm talking about.
> If he did that in Istanbul, in front of the Palace, I'd understand, he
He gave the world much more, what...probably you'll never get it, for being
able to appreciat his work you have to have the feeling of freedom....Do you
have it, or just "consider" that you have?
> was a great artist.
> Why would you be writing all this and make your own heros look so cheap
......you see it in this way? May be because you have cheap
soul?...relax,..I'm not surprised :) as usual....
> is beyond me. But given that you *just* learned that *other* newsgroups
> exists too, we have to be patient with you. :))
LOL....You have any idea what and when I've learned...
"we"....."patient".....? What are you trying to say?
Nevzat Akdemir
>
> --
> Edith
> "Nevzat Akdemir" <nev...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:39EC9EF4...@bellsouth.net...
> > Edith wrote:
> > >
> > > I am sick and tired to read here about how good Armenians lived under
> > > ottoman
> > > empire......man, do u really believe in what u are writing down? For
> last
> > > centuries Armenians had been leaving their homes, land of their
> ancestors
> > > to save the lives of their families.
> >
> >
> > Ottomans did the mistake of promoting some boot lickers too high.
>
> What are you, "half turk and half k...", trying to say?Is it that one of
> your "half" practicing it to show its loyalty? Couldn't this "half" find
> another way, or it's the only possible one in the current political
> situation in your country?
What half?
What you're talking about?
>
> > Gave them the misconception of they were better than others.
>
> Is it what you have been given for spreading lies here?.... Such a
> price?!.... Feeling better...?
What lies? Who is supposed to give me "lies" to spread?
Are you OK?
You aren't overdozed or something eh?
>
> >This
> > misconception still lingers today in some of Macreau's posts as
> > "..even Armenians wrote the Turk's music for them..." etc.
> >
> > What they should have done is bringing in racism, getting the
> > ethnicities
> > against each other and destroy each
>
> I know facts of such political line in ottoman empire.Give me only one
> example that Armenian have done it.
?????
>
> > other like some very civilized
> > Western Countries do today, and then, everything should have been a rose
> > garden for them. I bet you wouldn't find anyone talking about any false
> > genocide claims now
>
> Don't bet.....oops,.. you lost. :)
?????????
>
> >because they were all going to be something else
> > other
> > then Armenians or Greeks or etc...
>
> Don't speak for everyone in this planet......
Another Armenian with communication problems. :)
>
> > > Aivazovskii, the great seascape painter
> > > ,
> > > hung all his rewards, which he had awarded by turk's sultan, on his dog
> and
> > > walked it through all streets in Feodosia ( Russia) to the sea, when
> next
> > > ship had arrived from turkey to his town full of Armenian refugees. Tell
> me,
> > > why they have to leave "prosper live" and came to new place without
> nothing
> > > to start all over again? History is full of example of that "prosper
> live".
> > > If somebody fights for his rights, it doesn't mean that he is a
> > > nationalist.
> >
> >
> > Every great artist is a genius and every genius is a bit crazy.
> > But I guess yours wasn't so much so.
>
> According to your massages it's not in your power to guess, who is a
> genius. Ayvazovskii is one of the best seascape painter till these days.
> It's useful sometimes to peep in encyclopedia, specially when you have any
> idea whom I'm talking about.
The word I used "guess" is just a talk.
According to you he wasn't crazy enough to be a genius.
He could have been a good painter. I don't know. I am not interested
in seascapes. Do you have any painters that did underwater scene?
>
> > If he did that in Istanbul, in front of the Palace, I'd understand, he
>
> He gave the world much more, what...probably you'll never get it, for being
> able to appreciat his work you have to have the feeling of freedom....
What it has to do with feeling of freedom? I don't like seascape
paintings,
this is my feelings. OK?
> Do you
> have it, or just "consider" that you have?
What I have? "Feeling of freeeedom?" Sure I do.
"Ben ezelden beridir hur yasadim hur yasarim
Hangi cilgin bana zincir vuracakmis sasarim"
Get this one to Macreau to translate it for you. (Be careful, he cannot
resist and cheats on translations sometimes.) If you have the feeling
of freedom that is.
>
> > was a great artist.
> > Why would you be writing all this and make your own heros look so cheap
>
> ......you see it in this way? May be because you have cheap
> soul?...relax,..I'm not surprised :) as usual....
If your man is not crazy, he is not a genius level painter but a
mediocre
one, perhaps a little bit bad painter. Since he dumped all his work
into the water in Russia, probably he didn't like them himself either.
Who can be blamed? Bad paintings and salty water go together I think.
This is my feeling of freedom is talking.
So what happened to the dog? What kind was it?
>
> > is beyond me. But given that you *just* learned that *other* newsgroups
> > exists too, we have to be patient with you. :))
>
> LOL....You have any idea what and when I've learned...
> "we"....."patient".....? What are you trying to say?
Hahaha. You are very smart.
Tell us (hops) me, what and when did you learned?
I am very curious about this. Your answer will be very interesting.
We? Oh never mind that.
It means us.
vasif@fisav
house was worth more than lives. i was merely stating a fact to show
greeks that their side is not as blameless as some of them would like
to have us believe.
And moreover to this day i do not see the average greek as my enemy
and i have no grudges against greeks. in fact i get along with greeks
fine, particularly greeks from cyprus because we have similar
backgrounds etc etc.
maybe i am an exception in that i cannot hate anybody. who cares about
a house burnt down? i am not saying that it was right to burn down
houses. nor am i saying that property is worth more than lives.
it is just that if everybody could somehow rid themselves of this
hatred towards the so-called "enemy" maybe the world would becomes a
fitter place to live in and we could say goodbye to wars.
has anybody ever sat down and thought about it rationally? hatred
does not solve anything but merely compounds the problems. we should
all learn to live together in peace and harmony and learn lessons from
the past.
but somehow this is too rational for us emotional -- that is to say
irrational -- human beings.
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
t c wrote in message <39EB98CA...@earthlink.net>...
vasif@fisav
you know as well as i do that armenians had it good under the ottoman
empire. if in the final decades things went sour, you should blame
outsiders instigating trouble for the ottomans by exploiting and
inciting ethnic minotiries.
unfortunately such outside interference always leads to trouble as
evidenced throughout history. it is easy to blame the ottomans for
everything but it takes an analytical mind to come to grips with the
issues and find out why things went sour after centuries of peaceful
co-existence.
while stating this let me also add that today we are happy blaming the
west for such instigations but the fact of the matter is that every
government is capable of and has interfered in the afffairs of other
countries to stir up trouble.
unfortunately such are the ways of the world. let us be more
reasonable and try and understand how events develop. events don't
just happen. there is always a cause behind every event. and without
trying to realize the root causes of problems, we cannot hope to
understand anything but start seeing the other side as the mortal
enemy who we must fight.
ridiculous, but that's how things work out in reality because very few
of us are capable of rational thought. or should i have said we are
more emotional than rational. and that is the trouble.
vasif@fisav
pointed out to the circumstances during which those tragic events
happened.
i am willing to discuss the matter in a logical manner if you respond
to the views i expressed in a rational manner yourself.
t c
was OK tomassacre the Armenians, this in itselfstates your priorities.
t c
genocide and claim that to be the context, the events that ACTUALLY
occurred are the greater part of the context. Besides,even if the
allegations were true it would still be genocide by definition, your
arguments are patently dishonest as areyour claimsto fairness.
vasif@fisav wrote:
> tc, i am sure you are capable of more rational thought. i merely
> pointed out to the circumstances during which those tragic events
> happened.
>
> i am willing to discuss the matter in a logical manner if you respond
> to the views i expressed in a rational manner yourself.
>
t c
contexts.
vasif@fisav wrote:
> Edith,
>
> you know as well as i do that armenians had it good under the ottoman
> empire. if in the final decades things went sour, you should blame
> outsiders instigating trouble for the ottomans by exploiting and
> inciting ethnic minotiries.
>
> unfortunately such outside interference always leads to trouble as
> evidenced throughout history. it is easy to blame the ottomans for
> everything but it takes an analytical mind to come to grips with the
> issues and find out why things went sour after centuries of peaceful
> co-existence.
>
> while stating this let me also add that today we are happy blaming the
> west for such instigations but the fact of the matter is that every
> government is capable of and has interfered in the afffairs of other
> countries to stir up trouble.
>
> unfortunately such are the ways of the world. let us be more
> reasonable and try and understand how events develop. events don't
> just happen. there is always a cause behind every event. and without
> trying to realize the root causes of problems, we cannot hope to
> understand anything but start seeing the other side as the mortal
> enemy who we must fight.
>
> ridiculous, but that's how things work out in reality because very few
> of us are capable of rational thought. or should i have said we are
> more emotional than rational. and that is the trouble.
>
vasif@fisav
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
t c wrote in message <39EE33F2...@earthlink.net>...
vasif@fisav
of conversation.
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
t c wrote in message <39EE3497...@earthlink.net>...
vasif@fisav
subject. end of conversation.
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
t c wrote in message <39EE346A...@earthlink.net>...
>You regurgitate the propoganda that got the populace to go along with
the
>genocide and claim that to be the context, the events that ACTUALLY
>occurred are the greater part of the context. Besides,even if the
>allegations were true it would still be genocide by definition, your
>arguments are patently dishonest as areyour claimsto fairness.
>
>vasif@fisav wrote:
>
>> tc, i am sure you are capable of more rational thought. i merely
>> pointed out to the circumstances during which those tragic events
>> happened.
>>
>> i am willing to discuss the matter in a logical manner if you
respond
>> to the views i expressed in a rational manner yourself.
>>
t c
and you have stated massacreing the Armenians was OK, how does mentioning
what that says about you make me a liar?
t c
the only one I see representing your side who seems to have a choice, stop
being inferior.
vasif@fisav
let alone massacres.
now is that clear? trying to understand something is not the same as
approving of it.
i have never approved of wars either. wars are by their very own
nature cruel and if people are willing to go to war then they must be
prepared for the consequences.
in my opinion anybody who approves of wars must be either very selfish
or mad and probably both.
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
t c wrote in message <39EF2992...@earthlink.net>...
vasif@fisav
and as for me stopping being inferior, i doubt that i am inferior
except maybe in your mind. no doubt you consider yourself superior!
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
t c wrote in message <39EF29F5...@earthlink.net>...
>I gather honest exchange has the same meaning as open archives, you
are
>the only one I see representing your side who seems to have a choice,
stop
>being inferior.
>
>vasif@fisav wrote:
>
t c
the Ottoman leaders.
It may be a matter of definition but I can't say that I consider all war
wrong. To stop the levelof aggression WWII was fought over (particularly
with the oppression that was involved,but this is the norm for such
aggression) seemsworth the horrible consequences as wouldawar to stop
(with reasonable expectation of being ableto do so) a genocide or other
large scale massacre. I would certainly put most wars (WWI is a
particularly blatant example) in the wrongto the point of insanity
category.
vasif@fisav wrote:
> i never said any massacre is OK. i have never approved of any killing
> let alone massacres.
>
> now is that clear? trying to understand something is not the same as
> approving of it.
>
> i have never approved of wars either. wars are by their very own
> nature cruel and if people are willing to go to war then they must be
> prepared for the consequences.
>
> in my opinion anybody who approves of wars must be either very selfish
> or mad and probably both.
>
> --
> vasif@fisav
> **************
> The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
> *********************************************************************
> Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
> yesterdays' policies.
> *********************************************************************
>
> t c wrote in message <39EF2992...@earthlink.net>...
t c
(and even they lack serious access) which means that only those with
proven records of backing the position of the Turkish government have
access and they lose access if they contradict any official position(even
according to the pro-Turkish scholars this is the case).
vasif@fisav wrote:
> as far as i know the archives are open to bona fide historians.
>
> and as for me stopping being inferior, i doubt that i am inferior
> except maybe in your mind. no doubt you consider yourself superior!
>
> --
> vasif@fisav
> **************
> The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
> *********************************************************************
> Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
> yesterdays' policies.
> *********************************************************************
>
> t c wrote in message <39EF29F5...@earthlink.net>...
> >I gather honest exchange has the same meaning as open archives, you
> are
> >the only one I see representing your side who seems to have a choice,
> stop
> >being inferior.
> >
> >vasif@fisav wrote:
> >
REAL
"vasif@fisav" wrote:
> as far as i know the archives are open to bona fide historians.
only for those deemed bona fide enough by TR who say "so called" genocide
>
>
> and as for me stopping being inferior, i doubt that i am inferior
> except maybe in your mind. no doubt you consider yourself superior!
>
> --
> vasif@fisav
> **************
> The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
> *********************************************************************
> Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
> yesterdays' policies.
> *********************************************************************
>
> t c wrote in message <39EF29F5...@earthlink.net>...
> >I gather honest exchange has the same meaning as open archives, you
> are
> >the only one I see representing your side who seems to have a choice,
> stop
> >being inferior.
> >
> >vasif@fisav wrote:
> >
vasif@fisav
with their lives for WW2?and we won't mention material damage for that
is insignificant compared to the loss of lives.
and what was it if not an outcome or WW1?
you have got a one track mind, if i may say so, tc... pity!
--
vasif@fisav
**************
The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
*********************************************************************
Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
yesterdays' policies.
*********************************************************************
t c wrote in message <39EF7904...@earthlink.net>...
t c
similar excusesare viewed the same way or there is extreme underlying
bias. I don't have a one track mind, I just won't accept your dishonest
answers and statements.
vasif@fisav wrote:
> do you know how many scores of millions, yes scores of millions, paid
> with their lives for WW2?and we won't mention material damage for that
> is insignificant compared to the loss of lives.
>
> and what was it if not an outcome or WW1?
>
> you have got a one track mind, if i may say so, tc... pity!
>
> --
> vasif@fisav
> **************
> The triumph of mediocrity is represented by the body politic.
> *********************************************************************
> Politics is the art of trying to unravel the repercussions of
> yesterdays' policies.
> *********************************************************************
>