The Pope's own Taliban
david_G
Islam is not alone in producing fanatical sects - Roman Catholicism
has its own
Opus Dei has sided with the powerful against the weak, both
theologically and politically
Johann Hari
13 August 2004
This summer, the beaches of the world are awash with The Da Vinci
Code. It's a daft, mediocre thriller - but it contains two words that
matter: Opus Dei. The novel depicts this strange sub-strata of the Catholic
Church as the Pope's secret police. According to the author, Ron Brown, they
are a mad, murderous mob who pick off the enemies of their own brand of
ultra-conservative Catholicism.
Big deal: it's fiction. But Brown has performed a valuable service. He
has reminded the public about the existence of an authoritarian,
ultraconservative cult that will play a key role in picking the next Pope -
one of the world's most powerful men - and has been intimately involved with
some of the ugliest fascist regimes since the Second World War. They want to
make the Vatican an even more hardline campaigning force, battling the
"evils" of contraception, homosexuality and divorce. In developing
countries, their influence will mean the difference between life and death
for thousands of poor people.
There has been much discussion over the past two years (rightly, in my
view) of the totalitarian strains within the Muslim world. The word
"Islamofascism" was coined by Christopher Hitchens to describe the fanatics
who seek to repress moderate Muslims and demonise secular democracies.
Unfortunately, there has been far less discussion about the totalitarian
strains - just as real - within other faiths.
Anybody who has studied the history of the Vatican knows that it has
long harboured totalitarian elements, manifested from the Spanish
Inquisition to Pope Pius XII's complicity in the Holocaust. Do we really
think those dangerous instincts have vanished from Christianity?
Opus Dei emerged from this tradition, and it is growing stronger every
day. If we do not discuss this, we risk feeding the Islamophobic idea that
Islam is uniquely prone to fanaticism.
The group preaches a brand of Catholofascism. If this sounds like a
piece of journalistic hyperbole, then you should peruse the history of Opus
Dei. Founded by Josemaría Escrivá, an obscure Spanish lawyer-priest, in
1928, it immediately targeted the rich and powerful for recruitment, because
they are "more important" and "more influential". The sect quickly became a
supporter and key power player within General Franco's fascist Spain, with
its members holding (amongst several other cabinet positions) the finance
portfolio.
As Opus Dei spread beyond Spain throughout South America, it became a
player in a string of fascist tyrannies, most notoriously Augusto Pinochet's
murderous Chilean junta. They opposed trade unions and were used as a tool
by the Vatican to suppress more democratic and socially concerned strands of
Catholicism.
Its religious philosophy is described by Robert Hutchison, an
award-winning journalist who studied the movement for many years, as
"totally authoritarian". The founder's strange book The Way - the
inspirational text for Opus Dei - encourages members to keep their
membership entirely secret, even from their families. "Remain silent, and
you will never regret it," Escrivá declared.
All members must report and fully confess to an Opus Dei official at
least once a month. The group prescribes strict hierarchy and unquestioning
obedience. Maxim 941 of The Way demands "unreserved obedience to whoever is
in charge" of the sect.
Opus Dei has consistently sided with the powerful against the weak,
theologically and politically. It revels in wealth, and is strongly involved
in corporate trading. (It was, for example, one of the world's main traders
in eurodollars in the 1970s.) Escrivá once said: "Ask the Lord for money ...
but ask him for millions! He owns everything anyway. To ask for five million
or 50 million requires just the same effort, so while you're at it ..."
Throughout the 20th century, there was a battle within the Catholic Church
about whether the Vatican's power should be used to help the poor by
advocating social change, or whether they should tell the poor to
self-flagellate and think of the next world.
Opus Dei has been a major force on the Catholic right opposing social
change. When liberation theology emerged in the 1960s - a movement saying
that Catholics should be free to think out their own faith and change their
social conditions - Opus Dei was appalled.
Escrivá had taught that the poor should remain meek - all the better
to leave his fascist friends in power.
Liberation theologians like Gustavo Gutiérrez preached against the
"Church of the Rich", the corrupt Catholicism which encouraged the poor to
defer to their "superiors". Opus Dei replied with what Robert Hutchison
calls a "moneybags theology". Opus Dei represents the ugliest of religious
tendency - it coats the rich with a thick syrup of self-justifying
superstition, while telling the poor to pray patiently for salvation.
There are still a billion Catholics in the world (most of them in poor
countries), and the direction of this battle within their Church - however
distasteful atheists like me might find it - will have a massive impact on
global politics. (Imagine how different the world would look today if
Vatican II, the 1960s reform process, had culminated in approving
contraception - a decision that was expected by many experts and
theologians.)
Opus Dei is winning. It has established itself as the praetorian guard
of hard-right Catholic doctrines, and - because they target only the elite -
they have an influence far beyond their 80,000 strong membership.
When Pope John Paul II dies, it will be a key force in choosing his
successor, and therefore the direction of the Vatican for decades.
Giancarlo Zizola, one of the world's leading Vaticanologists,
explains: "Opus Dei is the only group well-organised enough, working within
the power structure of the Roman Curia [the central Vatican administration],
that can make a difference in swaying the decision over the next Pope."
The Pope has been lethally reactionary on issues like contraception
and homosexuality, but this has to some extent been balanced by his brave
arguments for fair trade and anti-poverty strategies.
Given the sect's track record, we can assume that an Opus Dei-picked
Pope would take John Paul's social conservatism even further into the
political stratosphere, and ditch all the admirable criticisms of extreme
capitalism.
Catholofasicsm and Islamofascism resemble each other. At the United
Nations Cairo Conference on Population and Development, for example, the
Opus Dei-dominated Vatican delegation made an alliance with Islamic
fundamentalist representatives to oppose the distribution of contraception
and abortion to the world's poorest women. A far-right Vatican is the last
thing the developing world needs. The Da Vinci Code is right, at least,
about one thing: there are a lot of people out there who should be
frightened of Opus Dei.
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
Dei. <<<
I second this opinion. These guys are for real... and they're everywhere
here in Italy. They actively endorsed the labour reform that sets back
workers' rights about two hundred years.
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
david_G
"Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio" <ltkojak...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2ojk6mF...@uni-berlin.de...
The late Cardinal Hume (Westminster) banned Opus Dei from the diocese.
Scientology is nothing in comparison.
And this arsehole of a pope adores them - canonising their fascist founder!
Eric de Souza
Probably that's one good thing that they did. I should be careful what
I say. Don't want to become another Biaggi.
Why do you think the black market is so flourishing in Italy? Why do
you think unemployment is so high in the Mezzogiorno? I could go on
and on and on.
Eric
Annie Keitz
<ltkojak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
The Arlington Diocese is the epicenter of Opus Dei in the US. Lotsa
wacko far right priests here. They come from all over the US because
they know they have a haven here.
Eric de Souza
Found this article (from 1995) on Opus Dei in the US
Interesting is the usual response of Opus Dei.
http://www.americamagazine.org/articles/martin-opusdei.cfm
Eric
Giuseppe Bilotta
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:20:02 +0200, "Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio"
> <ltkojak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> there are a lot of people out there who should be frightened of Opus
> >Dei. <<<
> >
> >I second this opinion. These guys are for real... and they're everywhere
> >here in Italy. They actively endorsed the labour reform that sets back
> >workers' rights about two hundred years.
> >
> I say. Don't want to become another Biaggi.
Spelt that way, you're talking about the motorcycle driver, Max
Biaggi (www.max-biaggi.com) :) (The one you're thinking about
is probably Marco Biagi?)
> Why do you think the black market is so flourishing in Italy? Why do
> you think unemployment is so high in the Mezzogiorno? I could go on
> and on and on.
Or maybe you couldn't. I'm afraid your second question already
denounces a rather limited knowledge of the backgrounds of the
Mezzogiorno issue ...
--
Giuseppe "Oblomov" Bilotta
Can't you see
It all makes perfect sense
Expressed in dollar and cents
Pounds shillings and pence
(Roger Waters)
Eric de Souza
wrote:
>Eric de Souza wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:20:02 +0200, "Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio"
>> <ltkojak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >>>> there are a lot of people out there who should be frightened of Opus
>> >Dei. <<<
>> >
>> >I second this opinion. These guys are for real... and they're everywhere
>> >here in Italy. They actively endorsed the labour reform that sets back
>> >workers' rights about two hundred years.
>> >
>> Probably that's one good thing that they did. I should be careful what
>> I say. Don't want to become another Biaggi.
>
>Spelt that way, you're talking about the motorcycle driver, Max
>Biaggi (www.max-biaggi.com) :) (The one you're thinking about
>is probably Marco Biagi?)
Yes, I am. Thanks.
>
>> Why do you think the black market is so flourishing in Italy? Why do
>> you think unemployment is so high in the Mezzogiorno? I could go on
>> and on and on.
>
>Or maybe you couldn't. I'm afraid your second question already
>denounces a rather limited knowledge of the backgrounds of the
>Mezzogiorno issue ...
>
You'd be surprised/ I have had discusssion with several Italian
economics professors of different ideological persuasions, including
the present one who teaches European Labour Markets at our
institutions.
Eric
Eric de Souza
wrote:
Let me be more precise. I am not saying that the lack of labour market
reform was the original cause of high unemployment in the Mezzogiorno.
What I am saying is that it is standing in the way of solving the
problem.
Eric
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
a good thing alright.
For the worker, all the rights were taken away (no payed holidays or
sickness, minimal health insurance only in work-related accidents, no enough
pension rights and money to cover your future needs, no possibility to join
an union, no minimum pay, no unemployment money, no need to justify the
cause of firing) which doesn't give you the necessary guaranties for a bank
to lend you money, so you basically are on your own if you have a crippling
accident... you can became crippled and homeless, as they're no laws nor any
infraestructure to those type of cases... if you don't have a family to
support you economically, suicide is the "only" way out, until euthanasia
becomes legal.
Basically, they legally screw you to no end, starting with the goverment,
that doesn't have to give back any of the taxes you anyway pay when you
work.
Wanna know wore?
University professors run their own mafia activities here... starting with
the ones that have written textbooks, they force to their students to
buy'em, even if they're not up-to-date, or even pertinent; else they
volontary flunk their pupils. Not to mention those that not only do that,
when they teach themselves, they SELL photocopies of the updates of the book
to each pupils (usually 20 to 30 each class; they can have up to 10 classes)
costing Eur 2 to 3 each one; (here are about 30 updates in every lesson
year) with NO RECEIPT.
You have no idea what it is to live in Italy nowadays...
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
Eric de Souza
<ltkojak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Probably that's one good thing that they did.
>If you're an employer looking for legally exploiting your workforce, that's
>a good thing alright.
>
>For the worker, all the rights were taken away (no payed holidays or
>sickness, minimal health insurance only in work-related accidents, no enough
>pension rights and money to cover your future needs, no possibility to join
>an union, no minimum pay, no unemployment money, no need to justify the
>cause of firing) which doesn't give you the necessary guaranties for a bank
>to lend you money, so you basically are on your own if you have a crippling
>accident... you can became crippled and homeless, as they're no laws nor any
>infraestructure to those type of cases... if you don't have a family to
>support you economically, suicide is the "only" way out, until euthanasia
>becomes legal.
>
>Basically, they legally screw you to no end, starting with the goverment,
>that doesn't have to give back any of the taxes you anyway pay when you
>work.
>
>Wanna know wore?
Sorry, but these were not the reforms that were passed in Italy. I
don't have the texts at hand now but I did have them. The reforms are
minimal.
>University professors run their own mafia activities here... starting with
>the ones that have written textbooks, they force to their students to
>buy'em, even if they're not up-to-date, or even pertinent; else they
>volontary flunk their pupils. Not to mention those that not only do that,
>when they teach themselves, they SELL photocopies of the updates of the book
>to each pupils (usually 20 to 30 each class; they can have up to 10 classes)
>costing Eur 2 to 3 each one; (here are about 30 updates in every lesson
>year) with NO RECEIPT.
>
I agree with this. I know the university situation in Italy very well
from having been there (at Bologna) and from having Italian students
every year. This is one field (higher education) that needs
fundamental reform.
Eric
Annie Keitz
wrote:
I've read the article before. What is also interesting is the fact
that former FBI director Louis Freech is Opus Dei as was the crooked
FBI agent whose name escapes me at the moment. Rumor has it that
Robert Novak, Robert Bork and some other conservative recent converts
to Catholicism were recruited by the Opus Dei. Great fodder for left
wing conspiracy theorists....
Annie
Steve Caple
> Wanna know wore?
>
> University professors run their own mafia activities here... starting with
> the ones that have written textbooks, they force to their students to
> buy'em, even if they're not up-to-date, or even pertinent; else they
> volontary flunk their pupils. Not to mention those that not only do that,
> when they teach themselves, they SELL photocopies of the updates of the book
> to each pupils (usually 20 to 30 each class; they can have up to 10 classes)
> costing Eur 2 to 3 each one; (here are about 30 updates in every lesson
> year) with NO RECEIPT.
>
> You have no idea what it is to live in Italy nowadays...
Nothing new - probably an academic thing everywhere, but you have to
include university administrations (highly influenced by tenured faculty,
campus bookstore corporations, and textbook publishers. When I was at UC
Santa Cruz it was a battle to get professors to supply their booklists to
Bookshop Santa Cruz (independent bookseller down in the town), and to get
the university to require that they did. They _were_ required to furnish
them to the campus bookstore, operated not by the uni but by Follet or some
such corporation (with the uni getting a cut of their outrageous prices,
just like priary and secondary schools get a cut from sugar soda machines).
The good, honest, _liberal_ (take that, reactionary assholes!) professors
did give their lists to BSC, and others were ferreted out by student
assistants, secretaries and bookstore workers and given to BSC in the name
of free competition (something corporate business just hates).
--
Steve
Dis-Appoint and Re-defeat Bush in 2004
Steve Caple
> The Arlington Diocese is the epicenter of Opus Dei in the US. Lotsa
> wacko far right priests here. They come from all over the US because
> they know they have a haven here.
G. Gordon Liddy Catholics?
PS: what _is_ it with right wing creeps - and almost all the CREEPs -
using first initials and middle names? (e.g., J. Fred Buzhardt)
--
Steve
Re-defeat Bush in 2004
Steve Caple
> I've read the article before. What is also interesting is the fact
> that former FBI director Louis Freech is Opus Dei as was the crooked
> FBI agent whose name escapes me at the moment.
Robert Hanson? Googling FBI Hanson Opus Dei gives at the top of the list:
<http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney01172004.html>
> Rumor has it that Robert Novak, Robert Bork and some other conservative
> recent converts to Catholicism were recruited by the Opus Dei. Great
> fodder for left wing conspiracy theorists....
Is Francisco Franco still dead? Does Bork really have one of his fingers
in a rock crystal reliquary? And what happens if your diCk gets caught in
the barbed wire? Or does that magnetic wine improving cock-ring repel it?
AHA
news:4124c89b...@news.individual.net...
| On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:31:55 +0200, "Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio"
| <ltkojak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
|
|
| >University professors run their own mafia activities here... starting with
| >the ones that have written textbooks, they force to their students to
| >buy'em, even if they're not up-to-date, or even pertinent; else they
| >volontary flunk their pupils. Not to mention those that not only do that,
| >when they teach themselves, they SELL photocopies of the updates of the book
| >to each pupils (usually 20 to 30 each class; they can have up to 10 classes)
| >costing Eur 2 to 3 each one; (here are about 30 updates in every lesson
| >year) with NO RECEIPT.
| >
| I agree with this. I know the university situation in Italy very well
| from having been there (at Bologna) and from having Italian students
| every year. This is one field (higher education) that needs
| fundamental reform.
|
| Eric
So we might say that Italy has the leader it deserves ?
Alex
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
It hurts like hell, really deep indeed, but you're absolutely right.
But Bush in the States is no slouch either, don't you think?
At least one can always argue that he stole the election... we can't say
that with Berlusconi.
*sigh*
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
EW
>
> PS: what is it with right wing creeps - and almost all the
> CREEPs - using first initials and middle names? (e.g., J.
> Fred Buzhardt)
Aw, shit. Now I'm gonna have to rename myself.
Waddabout my bro-in-law who only has one name? Forgot, he was
brought up communist. (I guess that proves your point.)
Annie Keitz
<steve...@commoncast.net> wrote:
>Annie Keitz wrote:
>> I've read the article before. What is also interesting is the fact
>> that former FBI director Louis Freech is Opus Dei as was the crooked
>> FBI agent whose name escapes me at the moment.
>
>Robert Hanson? Googling FBI Hanson Opus Dei gives at the top of the list:
>
><http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney01172004.html>
Yes that guy! Apparently sent his son to the same tony Opus Dei
private school that Freech sent his too. They say it could be a
reason as to wy Freech was so blind to the signals that Hanson was
dirty.
>
>> Rumor has it that Robert Novak, Robert Bork and some other conservative
>> recent converts to Catholicism were recruited by the Opus Dei. Great
>> fodder for left wing conspiracy theorists....
>
>Is Francisco Franco still dead? Does Bork really have one of his fingers
>in a rock crystal reliquary? And what happens if your diCk gets caught in
>the barbed wire? Or does that magnetic wine improving cock-ring repel it?
Such a way with word you have <g>....
Annie Keitz
<steve...@commoncast.net> wrote:
>Annie Keitz wrote:
>> The Arlington Diocese is the epicenter of Opus Dei in the US. Lotsa
>> wacko far right priests here. They come from all over the US because
>> they know they have a haven here.
>
>G. Gordon Liddy Catholics?
Liddy went to Fordam University just a few years behind my dad....
>PS: what _is_ it with right wing creeps - and almost all the CREEPs -
>using first initials and middle names? (e.g., J. Fred Buzhardt)
Their mothers gave them nerdy first names they hate?
Giuseppe Bilotta
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:31:55 +0200, "Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio"
> <ltkojak...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >For the worker, all the rights were taken away (no payed holidays or
> >sickness, minimal health insurance only in work-related accidents, no enough
> >pension rights and money to cover your future needs, no possibility to join
> >an union, no minimum pay, no unemployment money, no need to justify the
> >cause of firing) which doesn't give you the necessary guaranties for a bank
> >to lend you money, so you basically are on your own if you have a crippling
> >accident... you can became crippled and homeless, as they're no laws nor any
> >infraestructure to those type of cases... if you don't have a family to
> >support you economically, suicide is the "only" way out, until euthanasia
> >becomes legal.
> >
> >Basically, they legally screw you to no end, starting with the goverment,
> >that doesn't have to give back any of the taxes you anyway pay when you
> >work.
> >
> >Wanna know wore?
>
> Sorry, but these were not the reforms that were passed in Italy. I
> don't have the texts at hand now but I did have them. The reforms are
> minimal.
So they were, but only after demostrations and whatnot to
prevent the originally intended reforms to pass.
> >University professors run their own mafia activities here... starting with
> >the ones that have written textbooks, they force to their students to
> >buy'em, even if they're not up-to-date, or even pertinent; else they
> >volontary flunk their pupils. Not to mention those that not only do that,
> >when they teach themselves, they SELL photocopies of the updates of the book
> >to each pupils (usually 20 to 30 each class; they can have up to 10 classes)
> >costing Eur 2 to 3 each one; (here are about 30 updates in every lesson
> >year) with NO RECEIPT.
> >
> I agree with this. I know the university situation in Italy very well
> from having been there (at Bologna) and from having Italian students
> every year. This is one field (higher education) that needs
> fundamental reform.
A reform which is unlikely to happen, for more or less the same
reasons why a reform of the political system in the US is
unlikely to happen. The ensabilishment would lose to much power
to allow it to pass.
Giuseppe Bilotta
> On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:16:58 GMT, edes...@coleurop.be (Eric de Souza)
> wrote:
>
> >On 19 Aug 2004 14:06:02 GMT, Giuseppe Bilotta <bilo...@hotpop.com>
> >wrote:
>
> >>Eric de Souza wrote:
> >>> Why do you think the black market is so flourishing in Italy? Why do
> >>> you think unemployment is so high in the Mezzogiorno? I could go on
> >>> and on and on.
>
> >>Or maybe you couldn't. I'm afraid your second question already
> >>denounces a rather limited knowledge of the backgrounds of the
> >>Mezzogiorno issue ...
>
> >You'd be surprised/ I have had discusssion with several Italian
> >economics professors of different ideological persuasions, including
> >the present one who teaches European Labour Markets at our
> >institutions.
Where are they from?
> Let me be more precise. I am not saying that the lack of labour market
> reform was the original cause of high unemployment in the Mezzogiorno.
> What I am saying is that it is standing in the way of solving the
> problem.
Sorry but that's delusional at best, or still coming from a
very restriced view of the situation of the Mezzogiorno. In the
simplest terms, unemployment is not a problem in the
Mezzogiorno. Unemployment is only a *symptom* of a much more
pervasive and difficult to grasp problem, that has
geographical, historical and most of all "attitudinal"
problems. Addressing this symptom would not help at all. It's
like those talking that the bridge Messina-Reggio Calabria as
the panacea to all the problems of transportations, when the
Salerno-Reggio Calabria motorway is in horrible conditions, the
Messina-Palermo is nonexistante, and ditto for the Catania-
Siracusa. WHEN the stratis of Messina will be a bottleneck, we
can think about solving the problem.
For the more general problem: Sicily, for example, was given
the most powerful tool it could be given to solve it: special
status. We have our own parliament, can make our own laws, and
everything. Only four more regions have (had) the same power as
ours: Sardinia, Val d'Aosta, Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli-
Venezia Giulia. The only ones for which the special status
really worked where the last three, all situated in the
Northern rims of Italy. Why? Because the *mentality* of the
people there is totally different. The only thing that Sicily
"managed" to do thanks to its special status was that of
finding an additional resource drain in the overpaid hands of
the local politicians and all the others involved in the system
(through nepotism, of course), down to the porters and
janitors.
ANY tool aimed at solving the problem would get nowhere,
because it would have to pass through hands able to perver the
most useful things to their single personal interest. Think
about the EU fundings for the recovery of underdeveloped areas
... "we" could have done miracles with them. We didn't, and it
wasn't because of "red tape".
Eric de Souza
wrote:
I am aware of all this. As I said we get students from all over Italy
and they are graduate students. The professors (over the years: their
contracts here are annual, renewable) also have come from various
parts of Italy.
What I am saying is that mentality and structures go together. If you
change the structures, introduce more transparency, change will begin
because you break down the power structures.
Eric
Eric de Souza
wrote:
>Eric de Souza wrote:
Reform pressures are building up. They are coming from Italian and
non-Italian academics who have been educated abroad and find
themselves excluded. The numbers are growing.
Eric
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
begin because you break down the power structures.<<<
And you think the ones that hold the power structures would allow'em to
change? Not in a million years, and specially not in Italy.
For every change for the better (done to satisfy the population) there are
ten other changes for the worst made.
Wanna change Italy? Kill the whole population and put somebody else instead.
Only real solution to the problem.
No emoticon.
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
> non-Italian academics who have been educated abroad and find
> themselves excluded. The numbers are growing.
Italian academics don't have any political power and no capacity to
influence the stablishment. After all, they're not more than Public
Administration Employees. They're merchandise for exposition, mere empty
boxes put there to look good. And the ones that have put'em up there can
take'em down just as easily if they try to rebel to higher authorities. In
certain cases they involve'em into their shady business of selling grades
and diplomas, so they can't (or not want to because very profitable) talk
"too much". It's the most perfect corruption system ever imagined. Nobody is
clean. Absolutely nobody.
Italy holds the dubious record of being the EEC country that pays the most
sanctions to the EEC due to non comply to the EEC rules in time.
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
Eric de Souza
That's what the Greeks said a few years ago. That's what the Spaniards
said a bit more years ago. Both have been forced to change on account
of external pressure from the EU internal market. So will Italy.
Eric
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
> said a bit more years ago. Both have been forced to change on account
> of external pressure from the EU internal market. So will Italy.
Spain and Greece are "newcomers" to the CEE, Eric. OTOH, Italy has been from
the beginning.
They changed and we didn't. Go figure. We pay more in fines to the EEC than
most EEC countries put together. Go figure.
I really hope you're right, I really do. But in the meantime, I just won't
hold my breath.
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
Giuseppe Bilotta
> "Eric de Souza" <edes...@coleurop.be> schreef in bericht
> news:4124c89b...@news.individual.net...
> | from having been there (at Bologna) and from having Italian students
> | every year. This is one field (higher education) that needs
> | fundamental reform.
>
That we can say for sure, even though I'm not sure I see the
connection with what Eric said ...
Giuseppe Bilotta
> I am aware of all this. As I said we get students from all over Italy
> and they are graduate students. The professors (over the years: their
> contracts here are annual, renewable) also have come from various
> parts of Italy.
> What I am saying is that mentality and structures go together. If you
> change the structures, introduce more transparency, change will begin
> because you break down the power structures.
I wish I could share your optimism.
It has been tried over and over again. In the best of case,
attempts have been borg-ed into submission; in the worst one,
they've been wiped off in bloodbath.
It's not a power structure you can attack, sorry.
Eric de Souza
wrote:
>Eric de Souza wrote:
>> I am aware of all this. As I said we get students from all over Italy
>> and they are graduate students. The professors (over the years: their
>> contracts here are annual, renewable) also have come from various
>> parts of Italy.
>> What I am saying is that mentality and structures go together. If you
>> change the structures, introduce more transparency, change will begin
>> because you break down the power structures.
>
>I wish I could share your optimism.
>
>It has been tried over and over again. In the best of case,
>attempts have been borg-ed into submission; in the worst one,
>they've been wiped off in bloodbath.
>
>It's not a power structure you can attack, sorry.
>
The environment is changing. Italy will have to adapt or leave the
European Union.
Eric
AHA
news:MPG.1b8fe66ab...@news.individual.net...
I was continuing down the line of abuse of position and power ...
Alex
Giuseppe Bilotta
> "Giuseppe Bilotta" <bilo...@hotpop.com> schreef in bericht
> news:MPG.1b8fe66ab...@news.individual.net...
> | AHA wrote:
> | > "Eric de Souza" <edes...@coleurop.be> schreef in bericht
> | > news:4124c89b...@news.individual.net...
> | > | I agree with this. I know the university situation in Italy very well
> | > | from having been there (at Bologna) and from having Italian students
> | > | every year. This is one field (higher education) that needs
> | > | fundamental reform.
> | >
> | > So we might say that Italy has the leader it deserves ?
> |
> | That we can say for sure, even though I'm not sure I see the
> | connection with what Eric said ...
>
Oh yes.
Giuseppe Bilotta
I'll put my bets on the latter, or the Italian system cancering
through the EU.
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
> through the EU.
Just to be coherent with italy's history, they do more harm as an ally than
as an ennemy. Just ask the germans in WWII. :-)
So cancering the EEC it's a safe bet.
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
Standard procedure of any italian goverment since the romans.
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
Steve Caple
Why just "since"?
Giuseppe Bilotta
> Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio wrote:
> > Standard procedure of any italian goverment since the romans.
>
> Why just "since"?
We know little if anything about the previous ones.
Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
You beat me to it, Giuseppe.
:-)
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
Christine Forber
> The Indepenendent of 13 August 2004.
> Islam is not alone in producing fanatical sects - Roman Catholicism
> has its own
> Opus Dei has sided with the powerful against the weak, both
> theologically and politically
> Johann Hari
> 13 August 2004
>
>
> This summer, the beaches of the world are awash with The Da Vinci
> Code. It's a daft, mediocre thriller - but it contains two words that
> matter: Opus Dei. The novel depicts this strange sub-strata of the Catholic
> Church as the Pope's secret police. According to the author, Ron Brown, they
> are a mad, murderous mob who pick off the enemies of their own brand of
> ultra-conservative Catholicism.
The author loses a lot of credibility when he can't even get the
author's name right. It is Dan Brown, not Ron Brown.
--
Christine
rjj
Or the EU changes into Italy. :)
roelof