Gravy advice
Christine
altheim
"Christine" <chri...@brook2120.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
> However I try, I cannot make good gravy. Any advice?
>
I daresay you'll get the best advice from the chefs in this
group but I must tell you - today I made my best Sunday
Lunch gravy ever. We had casseroled lamb chops; in a
dish just large enough so the chops completely covered
the base. I added water in which I had dissolved s&p,
1/2 tsp paprika, 1/8th veg stock cube, 1/4 beef stock cube
and a heaped tsp cornstarch. I also added a good splash
of soy sauce. Now this is a recipe I use regularly but the
reason I think it worked out so well today is because,
out of sheer laziness, I didn't trouble to skim off any
fat. Instead I stirred it in and, boy! it was delicious. I didn't
dare tell the wife and fortunately she didn't notice.
--
altheim
Ida Slapter
<chri...@brook2120.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>However I try, I cannot make good gravy. Any advice?
What do you call good gravy? Consistancy? Flavor? Texture?
Just remember the formula.... one to one to one. One tablespoon
fat, (butter, pan drippings), one tablespoon flour, and one cup
liquid.
Heat your fat until hot....add one tablespoon of flour and whisk until
the flour is cooked and bubbles around the edges of the flour. If
you want a darker gravy...cook until the flour begins to turn tan and
it will burn and turn black...but just watch it until a nice golden
color. Add your one cup liquid whether it be vegetable stock, water
or milk. Lower heat and whisk until thickened. Add salt and pepper
to taste and there is your gravy.
More gravy.....two to two to two. Works every time.
The Fine Art of Cooking involves personal choice.
Many preferences, ingredients, and procedures may not
be consistent with what you know to be true.
As with any recipe, you may find your personal
intervention will be necessary. Bon Appetit!
Steve Calvin
> However I try, I cannot make good gravy. Any advice?
>
>
How about giving us a clue what you're after and what you've tried?
--
Steve
Ever wonder about those people who spend $2.00 apiece on those little
bottles of Evian water? Try spelling Evian backwards...
Jerry Avins
> Christine wrote:
>
>> However I try, I cannot make good gravy. Any advice?
>>
> How about giving us a clue what you're after and what you've tried?
Good point! There's no point to describing the ins and outs of roux when
Christine really wants a cornstarch "gravy" a la Chinoise. What's the
problem: lumps? color? thickness?
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
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Joseph Littleshoes
> Steve Calvin wrote:
>
> > Christine wrote:
> >
> >> However I try, I cannot make good gravy. Any advice?
> >>
> > How about giving us a clue what you're after and what you've tried?
>
> Good point! There's no point to describing the ins and outs of roux
> when
> Christine really wants a cornstarch "gravy" a la Chinoise. What's the
> problem: lumps? color? thickness?
>
> Jerry
Flavour? i know a person that actually likes a butter, white flour and
milk gravy. She just adds a bit of salt and pepper to it.. Wont even
mash a clove of garlic and god forbid i should ever again suggest
mashing up an anchovy for her "white gravy".
Unless im making some specific dish that calls for a specific sauce i
like to use whole wheat flour to make my roux, i think the finished
product tastes better than with cornstarch or other flours.
--
JL
Steve Calvin
>
> Flavour? i know a person that actually likes a butter, white flour and
> milk gravy. She just adds a bit of salt and pepper to it.. Wont even
> mash a clove of garlic and god forbid i should ever again suggest
> mashing up an anchovy for her "white gravy".
>
> Unless im making some specific dish that calls for a specific sauce i
> like to use whole wheat flour to make my roux, i think the finished
> product tastes better than with cornstarch or other flours.
> --
> JL
>
But we don't know the end result that the OP as after. There are
gravies and sauces of all kinds that go with most dishes. Asking "how
do I make gravy" is rather like asking "how do I make beer", etc...
Jerry Avins
...
> Unless im making some specific dish that calls for a specific sauce i
> like to use whole wheat flour to make my roux, i think the finished
> product tastes better than with cornstarch or other flours.
Have you tried King Arthur's white whole wheat? It's ground from white
wheat -- usual flour is ground from red wheat -- and the light color
comes from the lack of c in the bran. Carbolic acid not only colors the
bran, but gives it its characteristic sharp taste. The white whole wheat
is much milder. I use it for baking, pancakes, and such. Like any other
whole flour, it needs to be kept in the freezer if not used fairly
promptly in order to keep it from spoiling. The can of white flour in
the cabinet over the stove is what I usually make roux from, just out of
inertia. When I don't want to fuss at all, I use Wondra.
Wayne Boatwright
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> Unless im making some specific dish that calls for a specific sauce i
>> like to use whole wheat flour to make my roux, i think the finished
>> product tastes better than with cornstarch or other flours.
>
> Have you tried King Arthur's white whole wheat? It's ground from white
> wheat -- usual flour is ground from red wheat -- and the light color
> comes from the lack of c in the bran. Carbolic acid not only colors the
> bran, but gives it its characteristic sharp taste. The white whole wheat
> is much milder. I use it for baking, pancakes, and such. Like any other
> whole flour, it needs to be kept in the freezer if not used fairly
> promptly in order to keep it from spoiling. The can of white flour in
> the cabinet over the stove is what I usually make roux from, just out of
> inertia. When I don't want to fuss at all, I use Wondra.
>
> Jerry
I use flour and make a roux, but I also like to use cornstarch and tapioca
flour for certain gravies. So much depends on the dish. If I'm just
making gravy to serve at the table for topping slices of roast, I'll
usually go for the flour/roux.
Wayne
poppy
"Christine" <chri...@brook2120.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cunq73$gkp$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> However I try, I cannot make good gravy. Any advice?
>
im with you christine, i just can't can't make a decent gravy either and
gave up trying .... i buy packaged <heaven forbid> gravy mixes,
add a cup of water and voila. I do save stock however from turkey
roastings, beef, etc. and use this from the freezer when i have it,
better than the water. Mostly my gravies turn out to be quite lumpy and
just not flavorful enough ...... i have read all the replies here, maybe i
will give it a whirl again one day, maybe, lol
~poppy
Jerry Avins
Rice and arrowroot flours are also a good thickeners. I'm partial to oat
flour, which I make by whizzing rolled oats and sifting the result.
Sometimes I heat garlic in olive oil, add the liquid from a can of
chopped clams, and thicken it with a little oat flour. It's all done
while cooking the linguine. Topped with chopped parsley, it's a quick
and attractive supper. The oat flour makes the sauce cling.
Jerry Avins
Stick with us, kiddo! :-) I take it from what you buy that you want a
traditional brown gravy. Confirm, and Ill pass on what I know about it.
Joseph Littleshoes
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
> >
> > Flavour? i know a person that actually likes a butter, white flour
> and
> > milk gravy.
>
> eh-oh! ;-o
>
> >She just adds a bit of salt and pepper to it.. Wont even
> > mash a clove of garlic and god forbid i should ever again suggest
> > mashing up an anchovy for her "white gravy".
>
> I made some "gravy" the other night and it turned out VERY tasty!
>
> I started out by making a basic "medium white sauce" as defined in an
> old Betty Crocker cookbook.
>
> The BC recipe calls for:
>
> 2 TBS butter (melted)
> 2 TBS flour (slowly stirred into the melted butter to make a paste)
> 1 cup milk (slowly stirred into the paste to make a white sauce)
>
> Anyway, I doubled the recipe and also made some changes.
>
> 4 TBS butter (melted)
> 4 TBS flour (slowly stirred into the melted butter to make a paste)
> 1 cup milk slowly added to the paste then
> 1 cup turkey broth added
>
> then I added 1 1/2 cups turkey drippings (from roasting one)
>
> Reduced it all (about 20 minutes) back to a medium-thick gravy
>
> This was the best we've ever had. :-)
Assuming the "turkey drippings" were de - fatted i would do very much
the same except that i would substitute a good white wine for the milk
and broth, i often use a Gallo chenine blanc for cooking.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
Joseph Littleshoes
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Unless im making some specific dish that calls for a specific sauce
> i
> > like to use whole wheat flour to make my roux, i think the finished
> > product tastes better than with cornstarch or other flours.
>
> Have you tried King Arthur's white whole wheat?
Tried it? i have never even heard of it! I'll take a look in
Andronico's next time im there. The one thing i do not like about using
the whole wheat for sauces is the "speckeled" appearance it produces.
Ordinarly, cooking for myself or the "elderly relative" its not an
issue, but i often fore go the flavor of whole wheat for the appearance
of arrow root, cornstarch or white flour.
> It's ground from white
> wheat -- usual flour is ground from red wheat -- and the light color
> comes from the lack of c in the bran. Carbolic acid not only colors
> the
> bran, but gives it its characteristic sharp taste. The white whole
> wheat
> is much milder. I use it for baking, pancakes, and such. Like any
> other
> whole flour, it needs to be kept in the freezer if not used fairly
> promptly in order to keep it from spoiling.
Thanks Jerry i will be on the look out for this product.
> The can of white flour in
> the cabinet over the stove is what I usually make roux from, just out
> of
> inertia. When I don't want to fuss at all, I use Wondra.
>
I keep a jar of seasoned flour around for doreing (sp?) veggies and
when making a sauce for company.--
JL
Jerry Avins
...
> Tried it? i have never even heard of it! I'll take a look in
> Andronico's next time im there. ...
My local markets carry all King Arthur flours but that. Shipping costs
more than the flour itself. I got my last bag in Baltimore when I
visited my daughter. Good luck at Andronico's or Trader Vic's. From
http://ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/708.2.1037704702088916052:
"King Arthur 100% White WHOLE WHEAT Flour
* Milled from hard white winter wheat, a new variety of wheat
lacking the bitter compounds (phenolic acid) of red wheat.
* Includes 100% of the bran and germ of the wheat berry.
* Lighter color and sweeter flavor than that of traditional whole
wheat.
* Substitute for all-purpose flour in any cookie, brownie, muffin
or quickbread recipe to add nutrition to desserts and snacks.
* Coarsely ground, containing visible flecks of bran and germ.
"How it performs:
Imagine all the nutrients of whole wheat flour without its strong
flavor. This sweet, golden-hued flour fills the dual role of great
nutrition and great taste. Use it in place of traditional whole wheat
for lighter color and sweeter flavor. Or, substitute 100% White Whole
Wheat flour for all-purpose flour in any cookie, quickbread, or brownie
recipe; (the audience won't suspect a thing)."
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Joseph Littleshoes
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Tried it? i have never even heard of it! I'll take a look in
> > Andronico's next time im there. ...
>
> My local markets carry all King Arthur flours but that. Shipping costs
>
> more than the flour itself. I got my last bag in Baltimore when I
> visited my daughter. Good luck at Andronico's or Trader Vic's.
I know Andronico's carries the king Arthur brand of flour, but i do not
know if they have the specific type you recomend, i opt for the costco
25 lb. bag for about what i would pay for a 10 lb. bag at Andronico's.
> From
> http
> //ww2.kingarthurflour.com/cgibin/htmlos.cgi/708.2.1037704702088916052:
>
> "King Arthur 100% White WHOLE WHEAT Flour
>
> * Milled from hard white winter wheat, a new variety of wheat
> lacking the bitter compounds (phenolic acid) of red wheat.
> * Includes 100% of the bran and germ of the wheat berry.
> * Lighter color and sweeter flavor than that of traditional whole
> wheat.
> * Substitute for all-purpose flour in any cookie, brownie, muffin
> or quickbread recipe to add nutrition to desserts and snacks.
> * Coarsely ground, containing visible flecks of bran and germ.
>
> "How it performs:
> Imagine all the nutrients of whole wheat flour without its strong
> flavor.
Ah, but thats what i like about whole wheat, the pronounced flavour, i
know using it to make sauces or gravies is not exactly routine but i
prefere it over the other possibilities. Still, if i can find some i am
going to try it.
--
JL
Dimitri
"Christine" <chri...@brook2120.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cunq73$gkp$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Yes I want you to waste
2 Tablespoons of butter.
2 Tablespoons of flour and 2 + cups of water.
Ready?
Melt the butter in a large pot or pan.
Add the flour when the butter is melted.
Stir with a small whisk until the flour is about the color of - well light
tan.
Add the water a bit at a time - the mixture will clump up the relax - keep
stirring.
Congratulations you've just made a roux with is the basis for many gravy's
and sauces.
Yea!
No difference when making gravy - just use stock or pan drippings then start
the flavoring process with whatever you like form Worcestershire Sauce to
pineapple juice.and everything in-between.
Dimitri
Joseph Littleshoes
The flavour problem was what i thought the originator of this thread
probably meant. Making a roux and turning it into a sauce or gravy is
not very difficult. Sometimes if your milk or other liquid is too cold
the flour will "seize" up and form lumps, if you know your going to be
making a sauce let the amount of the liquid you will be using come to
room temp. But even then, if you are very careful about it, a thin
stream of very cold liquid, slowly poured into the roux, a bit at a time
while it is quickly whisked (a good wire whisk while not absolutely
necessary is very helpful) will produce a lump free sauce.
Here's a few sauce/gravey recipes i quote, not only for their good
flavour, but because they are well written, simple, easy to follow
recipes.
Important Note:
Meat drippings are the defatted juices from a roast or bird, if these
juices are poured into a glass jar and placed in the refrigerator for a
few hours they will separate into a dark brown liquid and a thinner
layer of white fat. This can be seen clearly in the glass jar, & the
layer fat is removed and either used as fat (schmaltz) for frying or
some other purpose but NOT to make a roux with. One can make a roux
with fat, butter fat being the most common way, i have done so with
vegetable oil & lard and other animal fats but unless it is done very
well the sauce/gravey will taste "greasy" and is not very good. IMO.
Rich meat gravy
----------------------
1/4 cup meat drippings
3 tbs. flour
2 cups water, stock or wine or a combination there of
[Birds and fish and white wine & chicken stock, beef, pork, deer, red
wine & beef stock]
1/2 tsp. salt
[i use just a pinch, maybe 1/16th of a tsp. eliminate if using a
commercial canned stock
Dash of pepper
[i go heavy on freshly ground black pepper just cause i like it]
Lift roast from pan, and place on a heated platter. Let stand for 20
minutes.
Pour off drippings from roasting pan . Re turn 1/4 cup of de - fatted
pan drippings to roasting pan. Place pan over a low heat and stir in
flour, to make a smooth mixture; brown it lightly over low heat,
stirring to loosen any brown bits in pan.
Gradually stir in water, wine or stock or milk and pepper, stir gravy
until smooth and bubbly.
[Add any Accumulated meat juices from the platter the roast has been
resting on to the sauce.]
Makes about 2 cups
----------------------------------
Mushroom beef gravy
-----------------------------
Make the above rich meat gravy above and add i cup of sliced sautéed in
butter mushrooms or 1 can of drained sliced mushrooms and 1/4 cup of red
wine if using beef, or white wine if doing a bird, along with 1 & 3/4
cups of any other liquid, don't use milk and red wine, makes an ugly
grey sauce unless you cook your roux very dark.
Makes about 2 cups
------------------------------
Chicken gravy
--------------------
As above rich meat gravy but using 1/2 cup white wine and 1 & 1/2 cups
chicken stock and adding 1 tsp. of coarsely chopped fresh marjoram or
1/2 tsp. dried marjoram. Oregano is equally good.
Makes about 1 & 1/2 cups
--------------------------------
Elderly Relatives special "Quick" mushroom gravy
--------------------------------------------------------------
Sauté in 1 tbs. of butter 1/4 cup diced onion, 1 tbs. diced green
pepper, 1 cup of thinly sliced mushrooms, cook mushrooms to desired
degree of doneness then add a can of condensed cream of mushroom soup
and 1/3 cup of white wine or stock. Stir, heat and serve.
Makes about 1 & 1/2 cups.
---------------------------------
Base for quick gravy
(brown roux)
--------------------------
1/2 cup unsifted all purpose flour
1/2 cup soft shortening
1 tbs. liquid gravy seasoning
[not liquid smoke, or only the tinniest drop if so, or a bouillon cube
dissolved in 1/2 cup of hot water and a tablespoon of this being used,
however if you wish to experiment other herbs and spices can supply
seasoning to the sauce]
1/2 tbs. dehydrated "instant" onion
[or use 1 tbs. of minced fresh onion that has been lightly sautéed in a
small amount of oil.]
1 & 1/2 cup beef stock
Lightly brown the flour in a dry skillet over low heat. Remove from the
heat.
In a bowl, blend flour and shortening well. Stir in seasonings and
onion.
Store in covered container in the refrigerator until ready to use;
To use, mix 4 tbs. of the roux with 1 & 1/2 cup stock in a small sauce
pan. Refrigerate remaining roux.
Bring the mixture to boiling, stirring constantly. Reduce heat; simmer
till thick and smooth.
Makes about 1 & 1/2 cups
--------------------------------
Hope this encourages you to expermint Poppy, upon rereading it i think
it mght be too much information and have exactly the opposite effect
desired, do let me know what you think of the recipies, i cant praise
highly enough the effect of a really good sauce with ones foods.
If you are interested i can also write about reduction sauces which are
often just butter, wine and a bit of pan juices, no roux's or flour at
all. These are very good with fish fillets and small steaks.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
Steve Calvin
Notice that the OP hasn't been back since the original post.
some...@thedoor.com
wrote:
>poppy wrote:
>>
>> Mostly my gravies turn out to be quite lumpy and
>> just not flavorful enough ......
>
>To prevent lumpy gravy, add your flour or cornstarch slowly to only the
>butter or greasy drippings....stirring constantly to make a fine paste.
>Once there, SLOWLY add the milk or broth while stirring constantly.
>
>If they're not flavorful enough, you're just making too much. Or in my
>other post, substitute some strong broth for some of the milk or water.
And you reduce the possibiluty of lumps if you add the liquid with the
pan OFF the heat. When the pan is still on the heat it cooks the
flour/liquid mixture before you can thoroughly incorporate it and then
you have lumps. Of corse, if you DO get lumps there's always a
blender, regular or stick ;-)
CJ
me
"Steve Calvin" <cal...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:37ct6cF...@individual.net...
> Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm smelling a strong air of troll.
> Notice that the OP hasn't been back since the original post.
>
>
Delurking to respond to this - I don't think Christine is a troll - it's
just that the response has been, in the main, to look at gravies in a way
that we in the UK do not -
ie - the addition of milk; the discussion about flour milk and butter
gravies.
In the UK, gravy is the sauce made from the dripping left in a roasting pan,
with the addition of a little flour and then the meat juices/ stock from
either the roast/ the giblets and often the veg that has been cooked to
accompany the roast.
So, Steve's assertion that there are lots of different gravies is true, but
in the UK, we're more likely to call them sauces and to leave the name gravy
for the sauce that is made from roasted meat dripping and stock.
Does that make sense?
As to making a good gravy - I reckon plentiful pan scrapings, good fat in
the pan, a rich stock and careful cooking at the roux stage to rid the sauce
of any flouriness. I think a glug of madeira or sherry adds oomph.
Our cookery goddess Delia Smith gives this recipe:
http://www.deliaonline.com/recipes/r_0000001025.asp
HTH
me
me
"altheim" <alt...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:379b9cF...@individual.net...
Didn't the stock cubes make the sauce taste 'processed' - I am very wary of
cubes, packet mixes for that very reason, apart from the high salt content,
the sameness and the MSG and saturated fat. Altho' given your stirring in
the lamb fat, you clearly aren't!!
me
altheim
"me" <m...@me.com> wrote:
Except for being slightly overweight, and the earache my wife
gives me, I don't have a problem with fatty foods or cholesterol.
I figure it gets balanced out with lots of fruit and veg and fibre.
When I can get it I llike to use real vegetable stock ('Fond'
which I get at our local Polish deli), to gravys. Some cube
stocks are dreadful, I know. I use Knorr brand which I reckon
is not too bad.
--
altheim
me
Lucky you - I just need to smell anything calorific and it climbs on to my
hips....
I'll look out for the real stock at my local deli - I might just try some
Knorr cubes too - for emergencies.. I dislike those popular British ones -
Oxo
me
>
>
>
Jerry Avins
...
> Lucky you - I just need to smell anything calorific and it climbs on to my
> hips....
>
> I'll look out for the real stock at my local deli - I might just try some
> Knorr cubes too - for emergencies.. I dislike those popular British ones -
> Oxo
I have some very tasty vegetable bouillon that has a gram and a half of
fat and 4 grams of carbohydrates in a pint of water. If it had no salt,
I could use it more often. It's made in Germany for a US distributor, so
a brand name probably won't help. It's expensive, though. $3.50 for 8
one-pint portions. http://www.organic-gourmet.com/
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Joseph Littleshoes
In my case its at least partially conditioning, these roux based gravies
were what i was raised on. Now that i prefer a reduction sauce or other
non roux based sauce i still often make a roux based gravy out of habit,
im half done before i think to do something else.
A bit of highly reduced stock, added to some pan juices with a bit of
wine and butter is very nice. Often times i toss in the wine to deglaze
the pan if there is stuck on bits then i add the concentrated stock and
more wine and/or butter for flavour.
I have myself trained with pork chops to just pan fry them, remove them
and toss into the pan they were cooked in about 1/2 cup of a good port
wine and let it reduce then add a tablespoon of butter and serve over
the chop.
But that is when i do not have equal parts of sesame oil, sake and soy
sauce on hand, which, with pork, i have yet to find a better sauce for.
It also works very well with chicken and fish but not so great with
beef.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
Mrs Bonk
"me" <m...@me.com> wrote in message news:37dqkoF...@individual.net...
>
> "Steve Calvin" <cal...@optonline.net> wrote in message
> news:37ct6cF...@individual.net...
> > Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm smelling a strong air of troll.
> > Notice that the OP hasn't been back since the original post.
> >
> >
>
> Delurking to respond to this - I don't think Christine is a troll - it's
> just that the response has been, in the main, to look at gravies in a way
> that we in the UK do not -
>
> ie - the addition of milk; the discussion about flour milk and butter
> gravies.
>
> In the UK, gravy is the sauce made from the dripping left in a roasting
pan,
> with the addition of a little flour and then the meat juices/ stock from
> either the roast/ the giblets and often the veg that has been cooked to
> accompany the roast.
>
> So, Steve's assertion that there are lots of different gravies is true,
but
> in the UK, we're more likely to call them sauces and to leave the name
gravy
> for the sauce that is made from roasted meat dripping and stock.
>
> Does that make sense?
To me - yes!
If I'm cooking roast meat for my guests then I will make 'proper' gravy
however we often have gravy with for instance steak and kidney pie, or a
toad in the hole, or just for dipping chips, on those occasions I use Bisto
plus flour sometimes with a dash of soy often with a spoonful of Marmite
plus vegetable water. This is then cooked in the microwave whisked and goes
straight to the table in the same jug.
Joseph Littleshoes
Could you give us an ingredients list for this "Marmite" i have ran
across referances to it a number of times, from Mr. Bean serving twigs
dipped in it to Australians who either love or hate it and various other
refereances equaly ambigious. Its some sort of vegitable concentrate
isn't it? I have yet to see it sold any where i patronize here in the
U.S. and hesitate to mail order something i know nothing about but am
intrigued by. I wonder if it is anything like "Dr. Bonners" nutritave
supplement, a sea weed based, herb flavoured nutritional suppliment in a
powdered form.
---
JL
Charles W
> Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > To me - yes!
> >
> > If I'm cooking roast meat for my guests then I will make 'proper'
> > gravy however we often have gravy with for instance steak and kidney
pie, or
> > a toad in the hole, or just for dipping chips, on those occasions I use
> > Bisto plus flour sometimes with a dash of soy often with a spoonful of
> > Marmite
>
> Could you give us an ingredients list for this "Marmite" i have ran
> across referances to it a number of times, from Mr. Bean serving twigs
> dipped in it to Australians who either love or hate it and various other
> refereances equaly ambigious. Its some sort of vegitable concentrate
> isn't it?
<delurks> Not exactly...it's a yeast extract sourced from breweries.
<fetches a jar>
'Made from yeast (richest natural source of B vitamins) and natural
vegetable flavouring. No artificial colour, flavouring or preservatives.'
> I have yet to see it sold any where i patronize here in the
> U.S. and hesitate to mail order something i know nothing about but am
> intrigued by. I wonder if it is anything like "Dr. Bonners" nutritave
> supplement, a sea weed based, herb flavoured nutritional suppliment in a
> powdered form.
Oh getcha self a ickle jar if you spot it reasonably close to home - it's
nice on toast or even just plain bread. Don't use too much or you'll start
gagging, but nice in moderation.
--
'Kay,
Chiz!
Chas.
Mrs Bonk
"Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:42143FFF...@pacbell.net...
> Mrs Bonk wrote:
>
> Could you give us an ingredients list for this "Marmite" i have ran
> across referances to it a number of times, from Mr. Bean serving twigs
> dipped in it to Australians who either love or hate it and various other
> refereances equaly ambigious. Its some sort of vegitable concentrate
> isn't it? I have yet to see it sold any where i patronize here in the
> U.S. and hesitate to mail order something i know nothing about but am
> intrigued by. I wonder if it is anything like "Dr. Bonners" nutritave
> supplement, a sea weed based, herb flavoured nutritional suppliment in a
> powdered form.
As Charles says, a yeast extract, very thick and dark brown with a very
strong taste. I have an imported yeast extract from the German stores it is
considerably cheaper than the real Marmite or Vegemite but runnier, the
ingredients and taste are much the same.It contains yeast extract and salt,
vegetable extract, Niacin, Riboflavin, Thiamin, Spice extracts, Folic acid
and of great importance B12 it is a vegetarian product and a 4gram serving
will provide 60% of the B12 RDA which is excellent news for people that
don't eat meat as B12 is for them hard to come by.
Marmite sandwiches, Marmite flavoured crisps, Marmite on toast. It is seen
on the tables of finer hotels at breakfast alongside the marmalade. A
teaspoonful in the roast potato pan gives them a lovely brown tinge and
superb taste. I am not keen on more than a tiny amount on the end of my
knife over bread but the kids will eat a teaspoonful on toast without
pulling a face and babies seem to love it though I guess in this day and age
because of the salt content many would not get it..
It may be possible to get one portion samples just to try it but don't
expect to like it first time, it is I think, a weird taste.
Dale Benjamin
are delicious. But boil the water off, add flour and stir over heat,
then add water, well it's smooth, brown, no lumps, and where the hell
did all the great taste go?
"Christine" <chri...@brook2120.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cunq73$gkp$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Jerry Avins
...
> Could you give us an ingredients list for this "Marmite" i have ran
> across referances to it a number of times, ...
http://www.google.com/search?q=Marmite
Jerry Avins
> I got the same problem. Saute a pound of beef, and the pan drippings
> are delicious. But boil the water off, add flour and stir over heat,
> then add water, well it's smooth, brown, no lumps, and where the hell
> did all the great taste go?
...
Too much water. I don't like the way you do it, but that's just me. Why
boil it down, then add water? There's another way.
I make a roux on the side, either from the collected fat, or a neutral
oil. (The last keeps almost indefinitely at room temperature. It's handy
to have some around.) To make gravy, I deglaze the pan with a little
wine, then gradually work in the roux to thicken what's there. You can
add more water and roux, but that's just mixing the real gravy with
fake. You can make a passable gravy with just stock and roux, or stock,
roux, and wine. Instead of diluting your sauté-derived gravy with a
passable imitation, serve a boat of each.
Roux is basically deep-fried flour. Making a roux provides an
opportunity to make sure the flour is thoroughly cooked. Raw flout
tastes, well, raw. You know that the flour is cooked when it stops
bubbling -- the bubbles are the water boiling off, just like in French
fries. Lumping can be a problem, depending on technique. Gold Medal's
Wondra solves that problem, but you can make good gravy without it.
Once the flour is cooked, you can continue to heat it to caramelize some
of the starch and darken it. It doesn't change the taste enough for me
to notice. You can darken it with GravyMaster, nut I can't: too much
salt. The label says the stuff is mostly salt and caramel color, so I
bought some caramel color and use that whenever I want to darken
something. (It makes that rich, golden color in many beers.)
Well cooked roux has an amazing capacity to take up water. Taste aside,
a tablespoon of well-cooked roux will turn a pint of water into a thick
sauce. My local discount liquor store has some good bargains, among
them, Opici Madeira for less than $4 a bottle. Canola-oil roux, half
water and half Madeira, and some herbs makes a fine vegetarian gravy.
Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
Joseph Littleshoes
Thanks Mrs. B and Chaz and Jerry. Jerry, i still occasionaly ask
someone how to spell a word forgetting I have a spell checker. Same
with google, i sometimes find something so interesting i forget to
google for information about it. One time i spent a frustrating hour
looking for information in my own library before it occured to me to use
google. Not that that helped either, i have an ordinary baumkuchen
recipie but cant seem to find a "kotzputer baumkuchen" recipie, even
with google.
I have recently stareted putting a tablespoon of "brewers yeast" in my
meat loaf and wonder if the vegimite or marmite would be even better.
Both for taste and nutrtion. The Dr. Bonners i mentioned is great on
popcorn or in simple soups & eggs but its flavour is easily disquised by
other foods.
---
JL
Joseph Littleshoes
> I got the same problem. Saute a pound of beef, and the pan drippings
> are delicious. But boil the water off, add flour and stir over heat,
> then add water, well it's smooth, brown, no lumps, and where the hell
> did all the great taste go?
I do not understand your statement "boil the water off" any water that
might be in the beef should be evaporated by the cooking of the beef so
that what is left after the beef is removed from the pan is nothing but
animal fat/pan juices or the cooking oil one used to sauté with.
A small amount of water, stock or wine can be used to "deglaze" any
stuck on bits in the pan but this should not be evaporated, add the roux
to this and then the volume of liquid to make the gravey.
I find that when i cook ground beef for a rice or pasta dish with all
the spices and herbs and veggies i use in the cooking of the meat, when
i drain the meat the drained meat juices and oil are very flavourful and
a tablespoon or 3 is enough to proceed with the making of the roux.
You might also consider making up a couple of cups of seasoned flour,
just add several tbs. of whatever herbs and spices you like to the
flour, mix thoroughly and keep in a sealed container for making roux or
dredging meats. This is one of the few things i will use garlic
granules for. Sage, oregano, thyme, cumin, marjoram, tarragon are all
good to add to a seasoned flour mix. At the risk of sounding like a
salesman for the product, Zatarans Creole seasoning has become a
favourite but it does contain, among many other things, MSG.
---
JL
altheim
> > > Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > >
[snip]
> > ... I am not keen on more than a tiny amount on the end of my
> > knife over bread but the kids will eat a teaspoonful on toast without
> > pulling a face and babies seem to love it though I guess in this day
> > and age
> > because of the salt content many would not get it..
> > It may be possible to get one portion samples just to try it but don't
> >
> > expect to like it first time, it is I think, a weird taste.
>
> Thanks Mrs. B and Chaz and Jerry. Jerry, i still occasionaly ask
> someone how to spell a word forgetting I have a spell checker. Same
> with google, i sometimes find something so interesting i forget to
> google for information about it. One time i spent a frustrating hour
> looking for information in my own library before it occured to me to use
> google. Not that that helped either, i have an ordinary baumkuchen
> recipie but cant seem to find a "kotzputer baumkuchen" recipie, even
> with google.
I'm not altogether surprised; my late (German) wife, who was
extremely good at making cakes of all kinds, explained to me
how baumkuchen was made (and why she never attempted
to make one): basically, a sponge batter is painted onto a
revolving spit so it is baked on one side and as the baked,
browned, side comes into view it gets painted with more
batter. Thus the cake it built up and when cut shows tree-like
rings - hence its name. So it is out of the capability of most
people, requiring a rotisserie kind of grill and lots of time to
devote to it. I suppose you could also make it by a dip-and-bake
method but it would still require you to be in constant
attendance for hours and hours.
That said, I don't know what "Kotzputer" is. Does that imply
some easier method?
> I have recently stareted putting a tablespoon of "brewers yeast" in my
> meat loaf and wonder if the vegimite or marmite would be even better.
> Both for taste and nutrtion. The Dr. Bonners i mentioned is great on
> popcorn or in simple soups & eggs but its flavour is easily disquised by
> other foods.
Just a quick comment about Marmite: I love it. It has been around
a long, long time in Britain - the brand celebrated its centenery last
year (I can't say "the company" as the brand was acquired ages
ago by Unilever and I can't even remember who originally made it).
But, yes, as well as being very tasty on bread and toast (buttered
only of course - marg just doesn't do it justice) a small amount does
wonders for stews and meatloaf etc. Mind you, there is another
product that looks similar to Marmite and that is a beef extract
called Bovril and for stews I like that even better.
I believe Vegemite is an Ozzie version - vastly inferior.
--
altheim
Joseph Littleshoes
> "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > > "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > > >
> [snip]
> > > ... I am not keen on more than a tiny amount on the end of my
> > > knife over bread but the kids will eat a teaspoonful on toast
> without
> > > pulling a face and babies seem to love it though I guess in this
> day
> > > and age
> > > because of the salt content many would not get it..
> > > It may be possible to get one portion samples just to try it but
> don't
> > >
> > > expect to like it first time, it is I think, a weird taste.
> >
> > Thanks Mrs. B and Chaz and Jerry. Jerry, i still occasionaly ask
> > someone how to spell a word forgetting I have a spell checker. Same
>
> > with google, i sometimes find something so interesting i forget to
> > google for information about it. One time i spent a frustrating
> hour
> > looking for information in my own library before it occured to me to
> use
> > google. Not that that helped either, i have an ordinary baumkuchen
> > recipie but cant seem to find a "kotzputzer baumkuchen" recipie,
> even
> > with google.
>
> I'm not altogether surprised; my late (German) wife, who was
> extremely good at making cakes of all kinds, explained to me
> how baumkuchen was made (and why she never attempted
> to make one): basically, a sponge batter is painted onto a
> revolving spit so it is baked on one side and as the baked,
> browned, side comes into view it gets painted with more
> batter. Thus the cake it built up and when cut shows tree-like
> rings - hence its name. So it is out of the capability of most
> people, requiring a rotisserie kind of grill and lots of time to
> devote to it. I suppose you could also make it by a dip-and-bake
> method but it would still require you to be in constant
> attendance for hours and hours.
>
> That said, I don't know what "Kotzputzer" is. Does that imply
> some easier method?
Im not really sure, though i doubt it, i think it might be a more
elaborate forsting or filling than an ordinary baumkuchen, which, by the
way, is not at all difficult to make, just thin layers baked under the
broiler for 2 minutes until browned then another layer for another 2
minutes & etc till all the batter is used.
Ordinary baumkuchen has a layer of apricot jam spread over it, this is
coated with almond paste and then enclosed in a chocolate frosting. Im
assuming the kotputzer is someother kind of frosting or filling.
>
>
> > I have recently stareted putting a tablespoon of "brewers yeast" in
> my
> > meat loaf and wonder if the vegimite or marmite would be even
> better.
> > Both for taste and nutrtion. The Dr. Bonners i mentioned is great
> on
> > popcorn or in simple soups & eggs but its flavour is easily
> disquised by
> > other foods.
>
> Just a quick comment about Marmite: I love it. It has been around
> a long, long time in Britain - the brand celebrated its centenery last
>
> year (I can't say "the company" as the brand was acquired ages
> ago by Unilever and I can't even remember who originally made it).
> But, yes, as well as being very tasty on bread and toast (buttered
> only of course - marg just doesn't do it justice) a small amount does
> wonders for stews and meatloaf etc. Mind you, there is another
> product that looks similar to Marmite and that is a beef extract
> called Bovril and for stews I like that even better.
>
Bovril is another i have wanted to try, i think im goint to have to find
a mail order source though.
---
JL
altheim
> altheim wrote:
> > "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > > > "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > > > >
> > [snip]
>
> > > recipie but cant seem to find a "kotzputzer baumkuchen" recipie,
> > > even with google.
> >
> > I'm not altogether surprised; my late (German) wife, who was
> > extremely good at making cakes of all kinds, explained to me
> > how baumkuchen was made (and why she never attempted
> > to make one): basically, a sponge batter is painted onto a
> > revolving spit so it is baked on one side and as the baked,
> > browned, side comes into view it gets painted with more
> > batter. Thus the cake it built up and when cut shows tree-like
> > rings - hence its name. So it is out of the capability of most
> > people, requiring a rotisserie kind of grill and lots of time to
> > devote to it. I suppose you could also make it by a dip-and-bake
> > method but it would still require you to be in constant
> > attendance for hours and hours.
> >
> > That said, I don't know what "Kotzputzer" is. Does that imply
> > some easier method?
>
> Im not really sure, though i doubt it, i think it might be a more
> elaborate forsting or filling than an ordinary baumkuchen, which, by the
> way, is not at all difficult to make, just thin layers baked under the
> broiler for 2 minutes until browned then another layer for another 2
> minutes & etc till all the batter is used.
>
> Ordinary baumkuchen has a layer of apricot jam spread over it, this is
> coated with almond paste and then enclosed in a chocolate frosting. Im
> assuming the kotputzer is someother kind of frosting or filling.
>
Joe, this has been niggling at my poor brane and I think I
have found something - could this be a misheard/misread
name? If so, could it be Cottbusser Baumkuchen instead?
It does exist. I found a reference to it at:
http://www.cafe-andersen.de/081/abendblatt20021221b.html
> > > I have recently stareted putting a tablespoon of "brewers yeast" in
> > my
> > > meat loaf and wonder if the vegimite or marmite would be even
> > better.
> > > Both for taste and nutrtion. The Dr. Bonners i mentioned is great
> > on
> > > popcorn or in simple soups & eggs but its flavour is easily
> > disquised by
> > > other foods.
> >
> > Just a quick comment about Marmite: I love it. It has been around
> > a long, long time in Britain - the brand celebrated its centenery last
> >
> > year (I can't say "the company" as the brand was acquired ages
> > ago by Unilever and I can't even remember who originally made it).
> > But, yes, as well as being very tasty on bread and toast (buttered
> > only of course - marg just doesn't do it justice) a small amount does
> > wonders for stews and meatloaf etc. Mind you, there is another
> > product that looks similar to Marmite and that is a beef extract
> > called Bovril and for stews I like that even better.
> >
>
> Bovril is another i have wanted to try, i think im goint to have to find
> a mail order source though.
> ---
> JL
>
> > I believe Vegemite is an Ozzie version - vastly inferior.
I meant to add a smiley after this :-)
--
altheim
Dale Benjamin
often cook beef to only medium well, browned all the way through for
sure, but with some watery liquid still inside. I like it that way as
much as with all the liquid within the meat evaporated almost, and I
don't have to check it so often.
I like ground beef well enough, but was referring to something like
chuck steak.
Also see below, please.
"Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:42151E91...@pacbell.net...
> Dale Benjamin wrote:
>
> > I got the same problem. Saute a pound of beef, and the pan
drippings
> > are delicious. But boil the water off, add flour and stir over
heat,
> > then add water, well it's smooth, brown, no lumps, and where the
hell
> > did all the great taste go?
>
> I do not understand your statement "boil the water off" any water that
> might be in the beef should be evaporated by the cooking of the beef
so
> that what is left after the beef is removed from the pan is nothing
but
> animal fat/pan juices or the cooking oil one used to sauté with.
>
> A small amount of water, stock or wine can be used to "deglaze" any
> stuck on bits in the pan but this should not be evaporated, add the
roux
> to this and then the volume of liquid to make the gravey.
>
> I find that when i cook ground beef for a rice or pasta dish with all
> the spices and herbs and veggies i use in the cooking of the meat,
when
> i drain the meat the drained meat juices and oil are very flavourful
and
> a tablespoon or 3 is enough to proceed with the making of the roux.
Don't you need a separator for that? Adding flour to watery juices
makes for lumpy gravy in my experience.
> You might also consider making up a couple of cups of seasoned flour,
> just add several tbs. of whatever herbs and spices you like to the
> flour, mix thoroughly and keep in a sealed container for making roux
or
> dredging meats. This is one of the few things i will use garlic
> granules for. Sage, oregano, thyme, cumin, marjoram, tarragon are
all
> good to add to a seasoned flour mix. At the risk of sounding like a
> salesman for the product, Zatarans Creole seasoning has become a
> favourite but it does contain, among many other things, MSG.
Actually I might consider adding them to a roux, either dry or oil
based, but probably won't because I like substantial variation. Thanks
for your viewpoint on this.
Dale Benjamin
question I posed, "where the hell did all the great taste go?", but if
any of the respondents actually deliberately addressed the matter, they
did so in a particularly oblique way.
I'm a bit handicapped in some ways, including cooking resources. And
sure, oil and flour are cheap enough, but whenever I tie my shoes I get
a distinct impression that less oil is better. So I persisted with the
simpler method.
Making the roux in the pan the meat was sauteed in with the oil left
over is not so good an idea as might be hoped for. Either the flour is
very little cooked and thus doesn't develop the desired toasty flavor,
or the pan drippings get burnt. Add enough flour to completely absorb
the oil, and the drippings flavour gets lost, but there's an appropriate
amount of gravy when done.
Making a roux in advance should address this predicament nicely. Once
the flour has been toasted, it absorbs both oil and watery liquids
without lumping, and there's no need for much heat, so the flavour of
the drippings doesn't get burnt.
I found a few references to 'dry roux' on the net earlier today, just
toast the flour in a dry pan, no oil, for five minutes or longer, stir
constantly. That sounds like a job for the mass production zone, but in
all my hours searching supermarket shelves, it hasn't jumped out and bit
me on the ankle. Wonder if it will work with corn flour too? Have to
try it someday for chili.
"Jerry Avins" <j...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:1aKdncyfgcl...@rcn.net...
Dale Benjamin
Jerry Avins
...
> That said, I don't know what "Kotzputer" is. ...
I could assign a meaning to "Katzputzer", but it's not relevant here.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Jerry Avins
Dry roux! What an interesting idea! I wonder if it's similar to Wondra.
There are lots of starchy thickeners aside from wheat. Rice, barley,
oat, and arrowroot flours, fine corn meal, and more I can't think of at
the moment. I've never used any but wheat for a roux. Has anybody?
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Joseph Littleshoes
> Your post was thought provoking, if not immediately enlightening. I
> often cook beef to only medium well, browned all the way through for
> sure, but with some watery liquid still inside. I like it that way as
>
> much as with all the liquid within the meat evaporated almost, and I
> don't have to check it so often.
>
> I like ground beef well enough, but was referring to something like
> chuck steak.
My mistake, i routinely cook for an "elderly relative" and have got into
the habit of thinking of ground meat rather than whole steaks or even
pieces of steak, your statement regarding the "water boiling off" makes
more sense in regards an whole steak. But even then, i generally cook
the meat well done as a personal preference. With a nicely seasoned
piece of meat, the residual cooking oil and meat juices are sufficient
to make enough sauce for immediate consumption even without the "water"
you write of.
I do occasionally make a beer, onion and beef dish that is cooked just
till the thinly sliced steak meat is coloured (onions are cooked in
butter first) then a bit of arrow root, or corn starch is mixed in with
the watery pan juices and butter and the beer added and simmered for
about 15 minutes. This makes a very nice sauce.
If you were doing a whole steak and wanted to preserve the water i would
just take it out of the pan and finish cooking in the oven if desired
for greater doneness. Cook in the pan just long enough to brown the
outside of the steak release the meat juices into the pan, remove the
steak to another pan place in the oven to finish cooking and proceed to
make your sauce with what is left in the pan. Any pan juices left from
baking in the oven can be added to the sauce.
Its such a small amount of meat juices that a tablespoon is abel to skim
off most of the fat.
---
JL
Joseph Littleshoes
Potato flour? yam and another powdered root i cant think of the name of
but commonly used in Africa & South America and when i last mentioned it
here i got a number of responses urging me not to trust the commercially
sold products.
I seemed to recall hearing about nut flour. That some way or another
various highly flavoured nuts like the filberts or hazel nut can be made
into a dry powdered "flour". I wonder if this nut flower would be as
flavourful as the nut, i know the "elderly relative" would love a hazel
nut sauce.
Potato flour gives a distinctive flavour but it is usually masked by
other flavours, but if you like it with a simple white sauce, butter,
flour and milk, you would probly like it as a roux. I do not use it
enough to keep it around but have experimented with it and the
difference, while distinct, is not big enough for me to buy potato flour
specifically for. And its probly cause of all the baking that i do that
i prefer whole wheat flour over white flour for a roux. Im not going out
till it stops raining so it might be a while before i can check the
market for the whole wheat white flour you mentioned previously, in
another post, Jerry.
Egg yolks can be used to thicken a sauce, wine will reduce a bit to make
a thin sauce and with the inclusion of a bit of butter makes a somewhat
thicker sauce. Highly condensed soup stocks the glazes or "glaces" of
the French school (assuming i remember my terms correctly) can be
liquefied with just a bit of wine for a very, very good sauce. The
italian "con case" (again, iirc & spell the term rightly) are just
chopped veggies quickly blanched in a frying pan and then finished with
a bit of wine or stock. A lot mashed garlic in this blanching water,
other herbs and spices and it works very well with shrimp or pieces of
fish quickly cooked in this water effectively making a court bouillon,
if desired a bit of butter may be included at the last moment then a
half cup of wine reduce and pour over pasta and toss.
Thin sauces are more common world wide than the thick American and
European "gravies". I think it was Toyenbee (sp?) who linked diet to
weather in its cultural implications. Northern Europeans needing a
heartier diet, more substantial than warm southern countries. And its
food gathering, preparing and consuming are also indicative of its
corporate politics & mythos as well as the individual expression of
their difficult, adversarial relationship with nature.
Just as an added note most of the French "sauces" are thinner than
"gravy" though still a thick as opposed to a thin "watery" or "liquidy"
(?) sauce
--
Joseph Littleshoes
Jerry Avins
> Jerry Avins wrote:
...
>>Dry roux! What an interesting idea! I wonder if it's similar to
>>Wondra.
>>
>>There are lots of starchy thickeners aside from wheat. Rice, barley,
>>oat, and arrowroot flours, fine corn meal, and more I can't think of
>>at
>>the moment. I've never used any but wheat for a roux. Has anybody?
>
>
> Potato flour? yam and another powdered root i cant think of the name of
> but commonly used in Africa & South America and when i last mentioned it
> here i got a number of responses urging me not to trust the commercially
> sold products.
Instant mashed potato; sure! I use it once in a while too. Are you
thinking of taro (casava root)? Tapioca is made from it.
>
> I seemed to recall hearing about nut flour. That some way or another
> various highly flavoured nuts like the filberts or hazel nut can be made
> into a dry powdered "flour". I wonder if this nut flower would be as
> flavourful as the nut, i know the "elderly relative" would love a hazel
> nut sauce.
I'll keep my ears open.
...
Dale Benjamin
I'm wondering if Wondra isn't dehydrated more than the paper sack Gold
Medal I bought several years ago. The Wondra package, besides more
convenient, is much sturdier, and resistant to atmospheric dampness.
I went through several packages of Wondra at one time, but decided to
try the paper sack flour. Initially it works pretty much the same, but
after a few months not so well, takes more stirring. That was years ago
too.
I tried the dry roux an hour ago, toasted about six heaping tablespoons
of the very old paper sack flour in a stainless steel pan, to my
surprise, no mess. Used medium low heat for five minutes, and it was
browning, stirring constantly, turned heat to low and stirred another
five minutes, it was a light yellow brown. Spooned it off into an old
vitamin bottle.
Sauteed a peeled bratwurst with an Italian squash and stalk of celery in
a couple tablespoons of canola, after ten minutes there was a nice mix
of watery and oily juices in the pan. Then added maybe a tablespoon of
dry roux, stirred, turned up the heat a minute, but it was still too
thin. Added another tablespoon of dry roux, it mixed in nice, thickened
the sauce just right.
I still had the sausage and veggies in the pan so I didn't stir as much
as I would have otherwise, and there was a little oil still free of the
sauce, not much. Nice color, decent unobtrusive taste.
Corn flour has a wonderful aroma when added to hot oil, the taste is not
so subtle as to get lost real easy, even with flavorful meats and spices
you don't confuse it with wheat flour.
Joseph Littleshoes
> Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
> > Jerry Avins wrote:
>
> ...
>
> >>Dry roux! What an interesting idea! I wonder if it's similar to
> >>Wondra.
> >>
> >>There are lots of starchy thickeners aside from wheat. Rice, barley,
>
> >>oat, and arrowroot flours, fine corn meal, and more I can't think of
>
> >>at
> >>the moment. I've never used any but wheat for a roux. Has anybody?
> >
> >
> > Potato flour? yam and another powdered root i cant think of the name
> of
> > but commonly used in Africa & South America and when i last
> mentioned it
> > here i got a number of responses urging me not to trust the
> commercially
> > sold products.
>
> Instant mashed potato; sure! I use it once in a while too.
No not "instant potato" mix. Though to be sure i had to do a little
"googeling". Just to make sure of my memory. Curously one site i found
does mention substituting the "instant potato" for potato flour but
first running it through a food processor to "grind" it. But potatoe
flour is steamed and the dried and ground potatoes.
> Are you
> thinking of taro (casava root)? Tapioca is made from it.
It ight have been "quinona" but it think there is still another root
that can be bought in small white chunks and if you grind these root
pieces yourself its suppoed to be good but the bags of the commercial
product have all sorts of addatives in them.
> >
> > I seemed to recall hearing about nut flour. That some way or
> another
> > various highly flavoured nuts like the filberts or hazel nut can be
> made
> > into a dry powdered "flour". I wonder if this nut flower would be
> as
> > flavourful as the nut, i know the "elderly relative" would love a
> hazel
> > nut sauce.
>
> I'll keep my ears open.
>
Horse chestnut flour is available
Heres a website i found if people are not already familiar with it.
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/foods__view/1,1523,303,00.html
> ...
>
> Jerry
> --
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can
> get.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
Jerry Avins
...
> I'm wondering if Wondra isn't dehydrated more than the paper sack Gold
> Medal I bought several years ago. The Wondra package, besides more
> convenient, is much sturdier, and resistant to atmospheric dampness.
More than that. It's processed some way and the individual particles are
larger, about the size of table sugar grains. They say you can bake with
it, but I never tried. For one thing, it's quit a bit more expensive
than flour in even a small bag.
> I went through several packages of Wondra at one time, but decided to
> try the paper sack flour. Initially it works pretty much the same, but
> after a few months not so well, takes more stirring. That was years ago
> too.
>
> I tried the dry roux an hour ago, toasted about six heaping tablespoons
> of the very old paper sack flour in a stainless steel pan, to my
> surprise, no mess. Used medium low heat for five minutes, and it was
> browning, stirring constantly, turned heat to low and stirred another
> five minutes, it was a light yellow brown. Spooned it off into an old
> vitamin bottle.
I have to try that soon. Thanks!
...
Joseph Littleshoes
> Jerry Avins wrote:
>
> > Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I seemed to recall hearing about nut flour. That some way or
> > another
> > > various highly flavoured nuts like the filberts or hazel nut can
> be
> > made
> > > into a dry powdered "flour". I wonder if this nut flower would be
>
> > as
> > > flavourful as the nut, i know the "elderly relative" would love a
> > hazel
> > > nut sauce.
> >
> > I'll keep my ears open.
> >
>
> Horse chestnut flour is available
>
> Heres a website i found if people are not already familiar with it.
>
> http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/foods__view/1,1523,303,00.html
try this, and use the on site search feature with potatoe+flour
http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshelf/
--
Joseph Littleshoes
Joseph Littleshoes
> "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:4216D8EA...@pacbell.net...
> > altheim wrote:
> > > "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > > > > "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > > > > Mrs Bonk wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > [snip]
> >
> > > > ... i have an ordinary baumkuchen
> > > > recipie but cant seem to find a "kotzputzer baumkuchen" recipie,
>
> > > > even with google.
> > Ordinary baumkuchen has a layer of apricot jam spread over it, this
> is
> > coated with almond paste and then enclosed in a chocolate frosting.
> Im
> > assuming the kotputzer is some other kind of frosting or filling.
> >
>
> Joe, this has been niggling at my poor brane and I think I
> have found something - could this be a misheard/misread
> name? If so, could it be Cottbusser Baumkuchen instead?
> It does exist. I found a reference to it at:
>
> http://www.cafe-andersen.de/081/abendblatt20021221b.html
I was willing to get out my German dictionary and a grammar and fire up
Babel fish translation service, they will attempt to translate an whole
web page. but i could not find the word "cottbusser baumkuchen" in the
article.
The context in which i ran across the term was in reference to a special
dessert that for whatever reason the Empress Frederick of Germany, Queen
Victoria's eldest daughter, had to bring with her, on her visits to her
mother, a chef to make, as it was a speciality of the Royal Chefs in
Berlin. It could be the size of the cake, it might have been an
ordinary baumkuchen just very large.
I occasionally make a "Dobos" by cutting 3 layers of cake in half to
make a 6 layer cake with a pistachio filling and chocolate butter cream
frosting. But i see no real reason other than presentation, for the
aesthetic effect to prepare an ordinary baumkuchern, even its
distinctive frosting and filling could be done just as well with an
ordinary 2 or 4 layer cake.
The French have several tools used just to make different cuts of
potatoes and other veggies. A sharp blade with a screw in one end that
allows one to quickly make "spirals of potatoes or veggies, grapefruit
knives, melon baller etc. etc. One time i saw an elaborately moulded
and carved solid silver, Baroque chicken leg holder so the diner did not
have to touch their food after the waiter used their naked hand in the
kitchen to put the cooked chicken leg in the holder, but then the Lady
could pick up the chicken leg without soiling her gloves or taking them
off. There are even special eating utensils for asparagus, plates
specifically for serving artichokes. Louis XIV' chefs invented a dish
that would hold and display 18 hard boiled eggs, and that quite
elegantly, ceramic molds toinsert into jam or jelly so when serving one
can see a pretty picture through the jam or aspic. But none of these
things add or detract from the quality of the food they are all for
presentation purposes only. As are some foods, the only thing that
makes them different is their shape or presentation.
--
Joseph Littleshoes
Mrs Bonk
"altheim" <alt...@freeuk.com> wrote in message
news:SFiRd.2213$Tk5...@newsfe5-gui.ntli.net...
> Mind you, there is another
> product that looks similar to Marmite and that is a beef extract
> called Bovril and for stews I like that even better.
Are you aware that Bovril is no longer Beef extract?
http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/news-ng.asp?id=56263-new-vegetarian-formul
ation
altheim
Oops! So sorry Joe. It might have been better had I just cut 'n pasted
the reference. It was in the fourth paragraph...
"Da wippt dessen hohe Bäckermütze, wenn der 65-Jährige Eiweiß
und Zucker für einen ***Cottbusser Baumkuchen*** in die blitzenden
Rührmaschinen schüttet."
It is an article about a local baker and this is a description of him as he
goes about his work - in this case making a Cottbusser Baumkuchen.
I'll keep digging to see if I can find a recipe.
--
altheim
altheim
"Mrs Bonk" <ar...@cutey.com> wrote:
> "altheim" <alt...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> > Mind you, there is another
> > product that looks similar to Marmite and that is a beef extract
> > called Bovril and for stews I like that even better.
>
> Are you aware that Bovril is no longer Beef extract?
> http://www.foodnavigator.com/news/news-ng.asp?id=56263-new-vegetarian-formul
> ation
So Bovril is a Unilever product too? Intersting! Actually the article
says that Unilever intend to change the product - not that they
have already done so. If they really do alter the product it will be
scarcely different than Marmite. I think that is so sad.
--
altheim
Mrs Bonk
I purposely looked out for Bovril today and under the shelf marked " beef
extract" there it was, except it is no longer beef extract, it is now a
vegetarian product and holds the "approved" vegetarian sign. So I bought a
jar, the supermarket only had large and it was £1 more than Marmite (£2.99
for 250grams) and the till receipt says beef extract even though it's not.
I put one level teaspoon of Bovril into a cup, one level teaspoon of Marmite
into another then half filled with hot water. I thought there might have
been a slight difference. I kept tasting each and found the Bovril possibly
had a twang similar to... um...Bovril but it was hardly anything, if at all.
I called my daughter in to taste, she said the Bovril was marginally
stronger in flavour than the Marmite but it wasn't a fair test as by then I
had muddled the cups and was unsure as to which was which and I certainly
couldn't tell.
Wayne Boatwright
Uh, if you can't tell the difference, what difference does it make?
Wayne
Dimitri
"Dale Benjamin" <da...@k-online.com> wrote in message
news:EbmdnVhEuJe...@got.net...
>I got the same problem. Saute a pound of beef, and the pan drippings
> are delicious. But boil the water off, add flour and stir over heat,
> did all the great taste go?
No salt - we perceive salt as flavor. try adding some S & P.
Dimitri
Dale Benjamin
line. I like the pepper cooked much better than added at the table.
While it may be possible to make a decent gravy using basically the
method I outlined, one would need a very dry flour, little or no watery
juices in the pan, a short time over low heat to get the flour to merge
with the oil without burning the meat taste, and of course, the proper
proportions of flour to oil. And maybe some sour cream rather than
water, that's tastier.
Roux is not so exacting, it seems so far. This morning I stewed a
couple pork chops, shell pasta, celery, zucchini, onion, garlic, added a
heaping tablespoon of oil base roux, boiled on low a few minutes after
everything was done, and it thickened up a bit. I added another heaping
tablespoon of oil base roux after taking it off the heat and the broth
is thick enough now. Decent enough but I tend to overcook everything.
Sauce is OK, pork chop a little overdone like everything else but the
onion, that's no problem.
Garlic should go into the pot with the roux at low heat, stir till mixed
well, then remove from heat. At medium heat, the chopped onion goes in
two minutes before, and four minutes before that the sliced celery and
zucchini, the shells and some pepper maybe three minutes before that,
etc., depends on how much water's in the pot to start, how big the
pieces are, how much you put in, of course. Quite a bit more fuss than
cream of celery soup in a can, which comes way overcooked to start with.
My oil base roux was about half canola oil and half flour, I maybe
should have used 2 parts flour to one of oil, because there is some oil
left on top of the cup where I keep it.
"Dimitri" <Dimi...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:904Td.35410$by5....@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Dimitri
> Quite right in your assertion, but I always add salt somewhere along the
> line. I like the pepper cooked much better than added at the table.
>
> While it may be possible to make a decent gravy using basically the
> method I outlined, one would need a very dry flour, little or no watery
> juices in the pan, a short time over low heat to get the flour to merge
> with the oil without burning the meat taste, and of course, the proper
> proportions of flour to oil. And maybe some sour cream rather than
> water, that's tastier.
>
> Roux is not so exacting, it seems so far. This morning I stewed a
> couple pork chops, shell pasta, celery, zucchini, onion, garlic, added a
> heaping tablespoon of oil base roux, boiled on low a few minutes after
> everything was done, and it thickened up a bit. I added another heaping
> tablespoon of oil base roux after taking it off the heat and the broth
> is thick enough now. Decent enough but I tend to overcook everything.
> Sauce is OK, pork chop a little overdone like everything else but the
> onion, that's no problem.
Actually a roux is very exacting: the thickening power of the roux is in
direct proportion to the flour to fat ratio and the time the flour is cooked
prior to adding liquid. This time factor usually relates to the color
obtained. Generally a roux is cooked outside the pan then the juices are
added at the last stage. This is done so the color can be closely
monitored. A very brown roux used often in southern (Cajun) cooking not as a
thickening agent but as a flavoring agent. Conversely the darker the roux
the less the thickening power. As a rule of thumb the blond roux (the color
of wet sand) made with 1 tablespoon each of butter and flour will thicken 1
cup of liquid.
Remember too it is the frying of the flour that expands the initial
thickening power over unfried flour.
My initial recommendation was for people to waste a 1 T. each of flour and
butter so that can begin to get a feel for how the roux reacts - be careful
here never use so called lite margarines - too much water.
Read more on roux's here:
http://www.jfolse.com/fr_rouxs.htm
Dimitri
Jerry Avins
...
> Actually a roux is very exacting: the thickening power of the roux is in
> direct proportion to the flour to fat ratio and the time the flour is cooked
> prior to adding liquid. This time factor usually relates to the color
> obtained. Generally a roux is cooked outside the pan then the juices are
> added at the last stage. This is done so the color can be closely
> monitored. A very brown roux used often in southern (Cajun) cooking not as a
> thickening agent but as a flavoring agent. Conversely the darker the roux
> the less the thickening power. As a rule of thumb the blond roux (the color
> of wet sand) made with 1 tablespoon each of butter and flour will thicken 1
> cup of liquid.
>
> Remember too it is the frying of the flour that expands the initial
> thickening power over unfried flour.
>
> My initial recommendation was for people to waste a 1 T. each of flour and
> butter so that can begin to get a feel for how the roux reacts - be careful
> here never use so called lite margarines - too much water.
>
> Read more on roux's here:
> http://www.jfolse.com/fr_rouxs.htm
Butter alone can thicken moderately, and it makes a wonderfully tasty
base for roux, but I find oil or animal fat easier to work. The water in
butter bubbles when heated*, and that masks the bubbles from the frying
flour. Those can be a useful indication of what's happening to the
flour. When the flour stops bubbling, it fully cooked or almost. Longer
heating browns it.
Jerry
_________________________________
* The bubbles help to keep frying eggs from sticking to the pan. If you
fry eggs in oil and they stick, try adding a few drops of water, but
watch out for spatters.
Mrs Bonk
"Wayne Boatwright" <w...@att.net> wrote in message
news:Xns960675050...@81.174.12.30...
warming drink or a rich addition to a gravy. It has a distinctive taste, or
had, before they changed it. Marmite is treated more as a spread plus some
use it for gravy but none that I know drink it as it is. We don't WANT them
to taste the same otherwise it's pointless buying the Bovril at one third
the price on top.
This is the interesting history of Bovril but I would dispute that the
flavourings now added taste like beef.
http://www.ubfoods.co.uk/product/savoury_bovril.asp
However on reading this blog
http://www.sangsara.net/online.cgi
I see some think Bovril is 'as before' in taste and then again, some don't.
Maybe it's all in the head and never did taste of beef!
Dimitri
> Dimitri wrote:
<snip>
>> http://www.jfolse.com/fr_rouxs.htm
>
> Butter alone can thicken moderately, and it makes a wonderfully tasty base
> for roux, but I find oil or animal fat easier to work. The water in butter
> bubbles when heated*, and that masks the bubbles from the frying flour.
> Those can be a useful indication of what's happening to the flour. When
> the flour stops bubbling, it fully cooked or almost. Longer heating browns
> it.
>
> Jerry
I'll have to trust you on that - for the past well, many years, I only do
eggs in sweet butter and in a quite hot cast iron pan and I have never had a
sticking problem. Ok I lied sometimes I like basted eggs cooked in a pan in
which bacon has just been fried.
As far as the use of animal fat verses butter I just don't think you can
make a blanket statement as it really depends on the dish. For example if
you're making a béchamel butter is the fat of choice, on the other hand for
a Cajun roux oil or lard is just fine, if you're talking about sausage gravy
for biscuits then the left over fat from the sausage is the fat of choice.
Butter is not a good thickening agent unless you're talking about a buerre
blanc at that point there are several other ingredients that stabilize the
butter. Generally butter is added as a final ingredient to a sauce to
complete and stabilize the emulsification of the ingredients and add a
beautiful gloss.
Dimitri
Wayne Boatwright
I see, and thank you. I usually have Bovril in the cupboard, but have
never made "beef tea" from it, only used is as an additive to gravy or
sauce. I've never tasted Marmite, not sure I want to. :-)
I only meant that if one couldn't tell the difference, the why buy both.
If that really were the case, I'd buy the cheaper.
I suppose one might caramelize the ingredients enough that, along with
other flavorings, might mimic an acceptable beef flavor.
Thanks,
Wayne
Dale Benjamin
> As far as the use of animal fat verses butter I just don't think you can
> make a blanket statement as it really depends on the dish. For example if
> you're making a béchamel butter is the fat of choice, on the other hand for
> a Cajun roux oil or lard is just fine, if you're talking about sausage gravy
> for biscuits then the left over fat from the sausage is the fat of choice.
>
> Butter is not a good thickening agent unless you're talking about a buerre
> blanc at that point there are several other ingredients that stabilize the
> butter. Generally butter is added as a final ingredient to a sauce to
> complete and stabilize the emulsification of the ingredients and add a
> beautiful gloss.
I don't use butter until the last step because heat seems to destroy the
delicate flavor. I prefer canola oil to alternatives for the low
cholesterol benefits. Lard may be preferable for flavour in some
instances, true. Generally I don't have much use for preconcieved
ideals of flavour, I just think it's wasteful to discard the oils left
over from cooking meat. Not only from a money viewpoint, but flavour
too.
Dale Benjamin
"Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:42151E91...@pacbell.net...
> You might also consider making up a couple of cups of seasoned flour,
> just add several tbs. of whatever herbs and spices you like to the
> flour, mix thoroughly and keep in a sealed container for making roux or
> dredging meats.
Yes, I might. But I'm not real sure of the proportions, and my preference
varies.
> This is one of the few things i will use garlic granules for. Sage,
> oregano, thyme, cumin, marjoram, tarragon are all good to add to a >
seasoned flour mix.
Looks familiar. But the proportion of one to another is a good question, a
matter of personal taste. Adding as much oregano or sage to the mix as garlic
or cumin will make it taste very sagey and real hot. Of course another question
is how much spice mix to add to the flour?
Putting garlic in hot oil for more than a couple minutes will largely destroy
the taste, it seems to me. I might start with one part of sage and oregano,
three of tarragon and cumin, and five of garlic. I don't have any marjoram,
dont't know about thyme.
Like tonight I have 3/4 lb. thin sliced chuck roast, well under a half inch. I
seared one side, added salt, sliced potatoes and celery, covered and turned down
the heat to medium. Fifteen minutes later the potatoes are almost done. Now I
add a quarter teaspoon of tarragon and cumin and maybe a tablespoon of the
Wondra roux. Stir, and when the sauce is even, add a couple large cloves of
garlic, pressed; and a couple tablespoons of sour cream, enough beer, wine or
broth to thin it out. Turn heat to very low, cover, for a couple minutes over
the lowest heat.
In retrospect, beef sliced well under a half inch thick is a poor choice, some
sliced an inch or so thick will cook without losing the taste. But I got it for
under $2/lb, so I tried it. I should have added the potatoes and celery sooner,
and I should have added the roux and dry spices sooner, too. All the stirring
sort of mashed the potatoes; that's OK, but not the original idea. I think I
would like it better if the potatoes and celery weren't completely done until
ready to come out. Oh, well, there's tomorrow.
The spice mix and proportions are OK, definitely garlicky and just a hint of
others. Someone who doesn't smoke a pack a day might find the garlic sort of
heavy.
poppy
"Gary" <g.ma...@worldnet.att.not> wrote in message
news:4210F947...@worldnet.att.not...
> poppy wrote:
> >
> > Mostly my gravies turn out to be quite lumpy and
> > just not flavorful enough ......
>
> To prevent lumpy gravy, add your flour or cornstarch slowly to only the
> butter or greasy drippings....stirring constantly to make a fine paste.
> Once there, SLOWLY add the milk or broth while stirring constantly.
>
> If they're not flavorful enough, you're just making too much. Or in my
> other post, substitute some strong broth for some of the milk or water.
all good ideas , and i will make a note of them; that could be part of it,
too much
liquid, not enough strong broth ... my mom used to use flour mixed in water,
but when i try that ... heck, it just tastes like flour .... ;(
~poppy
poppy
> poppy wrote:
>
> > "Christine" <chri...@brook2120.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:cunq73$gkp$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> >>However I try, I cannot make good gravy. Any advice?
> >>
> >
> >
> > im with you christine, i just can't can't make a decent gravy either and
> > gave up trying .... i buy packaged <heaven forbid> gravy mixes,
> > add a cup of water and voila. I do save stock however from turkey
> > roastings, beef, etc. and use this from the freezer when i have it,
> > better than the water. Mostly my gravies turn out to be quite lumpy and
> > just not flavorful enough ...... i have read all the replies here, maybe
i
> > will give it a whirl again one day, maybe, lol
> > ~poppy
>
> Stick with us, kiddo! :-) I take it from what you buy that you want a
> traditional brown gravy. Confirm, and Ill pass on what I know about it.
>
> Jerry
> --
> Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
you are right just generally gravies for roast beef, pork or chicken,
turkey, aardavark, you know, ..... the basics .... :)
we aren't big gravy eaters, but it is nice for company .... sauces on the
other hand, i am a whiz at...
so <shrug> i can appreciate your help jerry - can you really teach an old
dog new tricks ?
~poppy
Joseph Littleshoes
> Thanks for all your advice. My gravy making is making progress.
>
> "Joseph Littleshoes" <jpst...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:42151E91...@pacbell.net...
>
> > You might also consider making up a couple of cups of seasoned
> flour,
> > just add several tbs. of whatever herbs and spices you like to the
> > flour, mix thoroughly and keep in a sealed container for making roux
> or
> > dredging meats.
>
> Yes, I might. But I'm not real sure of the proportions, and my
> preference
> varies.
>
> > This is one of the few things i will use garlic granules for. Sage,
>
> > oregano, thyme, cumin, marjoram, tarragon are all good to add to
> a >
> seasoned flour mix.
>
> Looks familiar. But the proportion of one to another is a good
> question, a
> matter of personal taste. Adding as much oregano or sage to the mix
> as garlic
> or cumin will make it taste very sagey and real hot. Of course
> another question
> is how much spice mix to add to the flour?
For 1 cup of flour i would start with 1/4 cup quantities of any 4 dried
herbs or spices one desires. Till one has about 2 cups of seasoned
flour.
>
>
> Putting garlic in hot oil for more than a couple minutes will largely
> destroy
> the taste, it seems to me. I might start with one part of sage and
> oregano,
> three of tarragon and cumin, and five of garlic. I don't have any
> marjoram,
> dont't know about thyme.
Try to get "whole leaf age" if you can.
>
>
> Like tonight I have 3/4 lb. thin sliced chuck roast, well under a half
> inch. I
> seared one side, added salt, sliced potatoes and celery, covered and
> turned down
> the heat to medium. Fifteen minutes later the potatoes are almost
> done. Now I
> add a quarter teaspoon of tarragon and cumin and maybe a tablespoon of
> the
> Wondra roux. Stir, and when the sauce is even, add a couple large
> cloves of
> garlic, pressed; and a couple tablespoons of sour cream, enough beer,
> wine or
> broth to thin it out. Turn heat to very low, cover, for a couple
> minutes over
> the lowest heat.
>
> In retrospect, beef sliced well under a half inch thick is a poor
> choice, some
> sliced an inch or so thick will cook without losing the taste. But I
> got it for
> under $2/lb, so I tried it. I should have added the potatoes and
> celery sooner,
> and I should have added the roux
I would never add a roux to such a dish, if i felt a need to thicken the
"gravy" i would boil it down or "reduce" it to the desired consistency.
Perhaps put the cooked veggies through a "food mill" and add to the
"sauce".
> and dry spices sooner, too. All the stirring
> sort of mashed the potatoes; that's OK, but not the original idea. I
> think I
> would like it better if the potatoes and celery weren't completely
> done until
> ready to come out. Oh, well, there's tomorrow.
>
> The spice mix and proportions are OK, definitely garlicky and just a
> hint of
> others. Someone who doesn't smoke a pack a day might find the garlic
> sort of
> heavy.
I like bright primary colours and garlic ice cream. Im big on very
pronounced flavour. And dislike subtlety in food as much as i dislike
it in wall paper & philosophy or poetry, in general i like the overt,
the obvious and that without negating the subtle or claiming the
outrageous is in any way more "honest" i do not "believe" that. Its all
just "personal preference" that i do not have to apologize yet for.
Though goodness knows i probly will.
---
Joseph Littleshoes
may be consulted at
---
http://finblake.home.mindspring.com/tarotintro.htm
Jerry Avins
Even though flour dissolves -- disperses, really -- it needs to be
cooked in order to get rid of the raw flour taste. I'm going to try dry
roux one of these days. The idea intrigues me. For a "just stir it in"
thickener that doesn't need long cooking, I use pulverized rolled oats.
Supper for two, two nights ago:
12 oz piece of Atlantic salmon, poached in a about 2 cups of liquid with
onion, celery, carrot tops, and thyme.
1/2 pound broad curly egg noodles, al dente.
When it's done, flake the salmon, removing any skin. While the noodles
cook, remove and reserve the vegetables from the poaching water, then
thicken it with 2 tablespoons of oat flour, whisking as it is added to
avoid lumps. (A hand blender is easier than a whisk, and makes the mix
creamier by aerating it.) Add about a half cup of the pasta water as you
go, more (with extra oat flour).
Mix in the salmon chunks and the reserved vegetables, and bring to a
"side simmer". Put the noodles into prewarmed bowls (filled with the
pasta water when you drained.) and cover with the salmon sauce.
Serves two like us, or three ordinary people.
Jerry Avins
> "Jerry Avins" <j...@ieee.org> wrote in message
...
>>Stick with us, kiddo! :-) I take it from what you buy that you want a
>>traditional brown gravy. Confirm, and Ill pass on what I know about it.
...
> you are right just generally gravies for roast beef, pork or chicken,
> turkey, aardavark, you know, ..... the basics .... :)
> we aren't big gravy eaters, but it is nice for company .... sauces on the
> other hand, i am a whiz at...
> so <shrug> i can appreciate your help jerry - can you really teach an old
> dog new tricks ?
I sure hope so! If not, I'm done for!
I take it that you still want to talk about brown gravies, but a lot has
been written since I wrote the post you quoted, and I don't want to
repeat it uselessly (and pompously). (By "us", I meant the group, but
having made the commitment, I undertake to fulfill it.) If salt isn't a
problem, the easiest way to get an eye-appealing brown is with a bit of
GravyMaster. I use caramel color powder -- one of GravyMaster's
ingredients -- when I use anything at all. I'll wait for another
question before getting specific. The chances are that someone else will
answer it better than I can.
Roux, roux, roux your [gravy] boat ....
Dale Benjamin
> poppy wrote:
>
> > "Jerry Avins" <j...@ieee.org> wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >>Stick with us, kiddo! :-) I take it from what you buy that you want a
> >>traditional brown gravy. Confirm, and Ill pass on what I know about it.
>
> ...
>
> > you are right just generally gravies for roast beef, pork or chicken,
> > turkey, aardavark, you know, ..... the basics .... :)
> > we aren't big gravy eaters, but it is nice for company .... sauces on the
> > other hand, i am a whiz at...
> > so <shrug> i can appreciate your help jerry - can you really teach an old
> > dog new tricks ?
>
> I sure hope so! If not, I'm done for!
>
> I take it that you still want to talk about brown gravies, but a lot has
> been written since I wrote the post you quoted, and I don't want to
> repeat it uselessly (and pompously). (By "us", I meant the group, but
> having made the commitment, I undertake to fulfill it.) If salt isn't a
> problem, the easiest way to get an eye-appealing brown is with a bit of
> GravyMaster. I use caramel color powder -- one of GravyMaster's
> ingredients -- when I use anything at all. I'll wait for another
> question before getting specific. The chances are that someone else will
> answer it better than I can.
Not to be repeating things uselessly or pompously, or to try to explain things
better than Jerry does very well, but just to compare my impressions with yours
. .. ...
I find that a wheat flour cooked in oil roux turns a very deep and flavorful
brown if cooked a while longer than needed to remove the bubbles. It makes a
pretty decent gravy, I think I've eaten a lot of it in earlier years before I
did my own cooking. It doesn't usually have a meaty flavour.
For a really optimum beef, pork, or chicken gravy, I think one has to use a
seperator, a high thin vessel with a spout very near the bottom. No, I've never
used one, but the idea is to pour the pan juices into it, let it sit a minute
and the watery stuff is at the bottom, and the oily stuff at the top. Got to
fry at least a pound to get enough pan juice to bother with, several pounds is
better. Not a lot of other oil should be needed to fry the meat.
Then you pour the oil back into the pan, add only a little Wondra or a lightly
cooked dry roux, stir and heat on low. When done eniough, add the watery
liquid. I never thought of wheat flour as being strongly flavored before, but
it sure can swamp out the pan juices. Using a lot of Wondra or a lightly cooked
dry roux will make the gravy taste more like cooked flour than meat, it seems to
me. This procedure has to accentuate the native meat taste, right?
I haven't got around to caramel color yet, one of these days maybe. Not really
strongly flavored, I would suppose?
I don't find nice fatty chuck at the market on sale every month, and I'll have
to put the seperator vessel on the top of my tobuy list, and get back to you on
this when occasion permits.
Jerry Avins
...
> I find that a wheat flour cooked in oil roux turns a very deep and flavorful
> brown if cooked a while longer than needed to remove the bubbles. It makes a
> pretty decent gravy, I think I've eaten a lot of it in earlier years before I
> did my own cooking. It doesn't usually have a meaty flavour.
It takes a lot of patience to get the flour a deep brown without burning
it, more than any gain in flavor is worth to me. I find a trace of burnt
flavor more objectionable even than that raw flour taste, but it's easy
to avoid both.
> For a really optimum beef, pork, or chicken gravy, I think one has to use a
> seperator, a high thin vessel with a spout very near the bottom. No, I've never
> used one, but the idea is to pour the pan juices into it, let it sit a minute
> and the watery stuff is at the bottom, and the oily stuff at the top. Got to
> fry at least a pound to get enough pan juice to bother with, several pounds is
> better. Not a lot of other oil should be needed to fry the meat.
I have an inexpensive plastic fat separator that is made with a
removable septum that closes the pour spout except at the bottom. When
it's out, the spout is easy to clean. If it gets lost, the whole thing
is useless. Nothing is perfect.
> Then you pour the oil back into the pan, add only a little Wondra or a lightly
> cooked dry roux, stir and heat on low. When done eniough, add the watery
> liquid. I never thought of wheat flour as being strongly flavored before, but
> it sure can swamp out the pan juices. Using a lot of Wondra or a lightly cooked
> dry roux will make the gravy taste more like cooked flour than meat, it seems to
> me. This procedure has to accentuate the native meat taste, right?
If you taste the wheat and your palate is like mine, it needs more
thorough cooking. Raw (or stale) wheat has a strong taste.
> I haven't got around to caramel color yet, one of these days maybe. Not really
> strongly flavored, I would suppose?
No flavor at all that I notice. Although made from sugar, it's not
noticeably sweet. Of course, it's used in tiny quantities.
> I don't find nice fatty chuck at the market on sale every month, and I'll have
> to put the seperator vessel on the top of my tobuy list, and get back to you on
> this when occasion permits.
There are plenty around at about $10. I paid less than $3 for mine and
it works fine.