London bombs - the work of ONE man?
Ed Lake
individual seems to grow.
Two bombs were on the Circle Line, one on an eastbound train going from
King's Cross toward Liverpool Station, one on a westbound train going
from King's Cross toward Edgeware Station, and one on a southbound train
of the Picadilly line going from King's Cross toward Russell Square.
It appears that after planting the three bombs at King's Cross, the
bomber then exited King's Cross Station and got onto a southbound bus,
where he left the final bomb under a seat in the nearly empty bag he'd
used. He then got off.
There were only 4 bombs, weighing a total of less than 40 pounds. That
can easily be carried by a single person.
The reports of unexploded bombs are being denied. Police found two
suspicious packages, and they blew up at least one of them, but there's
no evidence either package contained a bomb.
> At 8.51, a Circle Line train heading into Liverpool Street station,
the huge complex which acts as the confluence for a number of
underground lines as well as overground lines from north and east
London, carrying commuters in and out of the City, was rocked by a huge
explosion.
> Within a few minutes, at 8.56, the underground was rocked by a second
blast, a few kilometres to the north-west, where the southbound
Piccadilly Line sweeps in from north London.
> there was a third explosion, at 9.17am and several kilometres to the
west, at Edgware Road station, this time on another Circle Line train
heading west.
Source: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=10334959
Four bombs weighing a total of less than 10 pounds each, all coming from
a central place, all detonated by TIMERS? That really smells of the
work of a single individual.
But I suppose plenty will find conspiracies somewhere in all this.
Ed Lake
The bus is going to be the key. Did he wait at King's Cross until the
panic started before he boarded the bus? Or did he get on the bus
immediately and it just took 40 minutes or so to get to the right spot?
Either way, it seems he set the final bomb to go off when the bus was
full of people coming out of the tube stations.
It doesn't look like it would take very long for a bus to get from
King's Cross to Russell Square. The culprit probably waited around
King's Cross before getting on a bus. And he was probably one of the
first people on the bus, since he'd want a nearly empty bus so no one
would see when he put the bag under the seat.
If this is true, based upon the times when various vehicles left King's
Cross, an expert could probably tell where the individual was at almost
every minute during the entire time period. If there are any
surveillance cameras about, you could almost say he'd pass camera 123 at
8:42 a.m., camera 131 at 8:44 a.m., camera 419 at 9:15 a.m., etc.
This is the most interesting crime I've seen since the anthrax attacks.
Ed Lake
I've done some further research, and it appears the culprit didn't wait
around King's Cross after planting the bombs on the trains, he walked to
Euston Station. It's less than a half mile away.
The Number 30 bus that blew up was going from Euston to King's Cross.
Here's the bus route and schedule for Number 30 bus:
http://www.londonbusroutes.net/times/030.pdf
At the time of the explosion, there'd be a bus about every 6 to 8
minutes going from Euston Station to King's Cross and another bus about
every 10 minutes going in the other direction from King's Cross to
Euston Station.
The bomb was on the westbound bus going from Euston to King's Cross, but
because of all the people coming out of the subways, it was diverted
down Woburn Place to Tavistock where the bomb went off.
It looks to me like the bomber expected the bus to be at King's Cross at
the time the bomb went off. But it was diverted. He evidently expected
people to be coming out of King's Cross Station because of the earlier
bombs, and then to have another go off in front of them when they got to
the surface.
The more I research this, the more it seems like the work of one man - a
very cunning man.
Peter Vos
204 eastbound between Liverpool Street and Aldgate.
216 westbound at Edgware Road.
311 southbound between King's Cross St. Pancras and Russell Square.
If one guy did all three bombings, then the Russell Street bomb would
have been placed last at KX station.
Assumption: The Circle Line bombs were placed under a seat while the
perp rode the train for one stop before getting off. This would be
least likely to cause suspicion. The Picadilly Line bomb was dropped
by the front door and doesn't require the perp to stay on board. It
doesn't travel far enough to matter if people get suspicious.
Given the time from KX to Liverpool (8 min), and KX to Edgware (8 min)
you can't have one guy plant both bombs even if he only rides between
KX and Euston (2 min) because it would take at least 5 minutes for you
to do the round trip between Euston and KX (ride 2 min to Euston wait 1
minute for a train and ride 2min to KX).
Say you start at 8:40 set three timers for 11 minutes ... ride towards
the closest stop which is Euston, get off at 8:42, ride back towards
KX, get off at 8:45. The 204 would be close to Moorgate when the 216
left Edgware. Given the numbering, it is likely the 204 originates
earlier than the 216 so you would need to be on that train first.
Suggests: two guys traveling in opposite directions.
The eastbound guy gets off at Farringdon and is available to catch the
bus. The westbound guy gets off at Euston, turns around and heads back
towards KX. He could easily have arrived there around 8:45. That means
you would need 4 minutes to get from the eastbound Circle Line platform
to the front of the westbound Picadilly line platform.
Questions:
Is that possible without too much trouble? Is it possible to do it in 3
minutes at a brisk walk? If yes.... you don't need more than 2 guys.
Clive D. W. Feather
Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
>Say you start at 8:40 set three timers for 11 minutes ... ride towards
>the closest stop which is Euston, get off at 8:42, ride back towards
>KX, get off at 8:45. The 204 would be close to Moorgate when the 216
>left Edgware. Given the numbering, it is likely the 204 originates
>earlier than the 216 so you would need to be on that train first.
It doesn't work like that.
Trains 201 to 207 run clockwise round the Circle. They should be in
order - that is, if you stay on one platform you should see 201 arrive,
then 202 (perhaps with non-Circle trains between), then 203, and so on.
They originate from various places in the 05:00 to 06:00 timescale. They
don't start from the depot in numerical order; rather, they will have
starting times and initial moves to get them into order.
Trains 211 to 217 run anti-clockwise in the same way.
[Note 2*0*x for the *O*uter track and 2*1*x for the *I*nner track.]
>That means
>you would need 4 minutes to get from the eastbound Circle Line platform
>to the front of the westbound Picadilly line platform.
>
>Questions:
>Is that possible without too much trouble? Is it possible to do it in 3
>minutes at a brisk walk?
I believe so, though I've lost track of which passageways are open at
the moment.
The south end of the Piccadilly platforms are nearest the bottom of the
escalators (also true for the Northern and Victoria, oddly enough).
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home: <cl...@davros.org>
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: <cl...@demon.net>
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: <cl...@davros.org>
pvo...@yahoo.com
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
> In article <1121053213.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
> >Say you start at 8:40 set three timers for 11 minutes ... ride towards
> >the closest stop which is Euston, get off at 8:42, ride back towards
> >KX, get off at 8:45. The 204 would be close to Moorgate when the 216
> >left Edgware. Given the numbering, it is likely the 204 originates
> >earlier than the 216 so you would need to be on that train first.
>
> It doesn't work like that.
>
> Trains 201 to 207 run clockwise round the Circle. They should be in
> order - that is, if you stay on one platform you should see 201 arrive,
> then 202 (perhaps with non-Circle trains between), then 203, and so on.
> They originate from various places in the 05:00 to 06:00 timescale. They
> don't start from the depot in numerical order; rather, they will have
> starting times and initial moves to get them into order.
>
> Trains 211 to 217 run anti-clockwise in the same way.
>
> [Note 2*0*x for the *O*uter track and 2*1*x for the *I*nner track.]
>
This is exactly the level of detail I figured people in this group
would have. If you allow for about a minute slack time so things are
not exactly simultaneous, then here's a potential timeline starting
with the 216:
8:38 leave KX on 216, drop bomb with 12 minute delay
8:40 get off at Euston
8:42 get on 204 and drop bomb with 10 minute delay
8:44 arrive KX and get off.
8:49 drop bomb on Picadilly Line without getting on.
The current scenario has a bit of slack in it, which I think is
critical for something this tightly timed. The weakest link is making
the connection at Euston. If you are delayed making the connection at
Euston, the 204 bomb would go off closer to Moorgate which would not be
too big a deal. The big risk is you might miss the Picadilly Line
connection and be stuck in KX with a ticking time bomb. However, in
this version you actually have MORE time to get between the two lines.
You can also buffer things a bit by assuming the first available
Picadilly train (in either direction) will be targeted. In other
words, you could expand the down time at Euston by 2 minutes and still
have things work out more or less.
So it looks like one guy *is* possible. However, I still favor two
because that would dramatically improve the chances of success.
Someone commented they didn't think the seats on C stock had space
beneath them. I am assuming you have to plant the bombs on the Circle
Lines because just dropping them leaves too much time and too many
stops for suspicion and possible removal to a platform.
Ed Lake
Actually, it would dramatically DECREASE the chances of success. You
point out all the things that could go wrong. It depends upon catching
a train at another station and riding back to plant the third bomb. And
it involves riding in a train headed in the direction where you know a
bomb is going to go off.
If you agree that the culprit MUST have planted the bomb on the
Picadilly line by just getting and off the train while it was in the
station, why can't he do the same with the second Circle Line train?
If the culprit knew the train schedule so well, he'd do things the
safest and easiest way. Taking a train to Euston, then another to get
back to King's Cross so he could plant the bomb on the Picadilly line is
just too complicated.
If we knew the ACTUAL times the trains arrived at King's Cross, it would
solve the matter. That information would tell you if it was possible
for someone to ride to Euston and back in time to plant the Picadilly
Line bomb.
I don't discount the idea of two people, but if the job CAN be done by
one man, then I say it was MOST LIKELY done by one man. Why involve a
second person?
Peter Vos
The bomb will go off after you have left. Riding the train one stop is
a good way not to draw attention to a package that is left under a
seat.
>
> If you agree that the culprit MUST have planted the bomb on the
> Picadilly line by just getting and off the train while it was in the
> station, why can't he do the same with the second Circle Line train?
The first two will be on a train for about ten minutes and several
stops. If they are unattended you don't want to draw attention to them
because someone might decide to play hero and chuck it off the train.
The last one can be a throw on because they won't have time to do
anything about it. Also you want to be sure you can exit the station
when all hell breaks lose. You don't want to get caught on a train
when the system is shut down.
>
> If the culprit knew the train schedule so well, he'd do things the
> safest and easiest way. Taking a train to Euston, then another to get
> back to King's Cross so he could plant the bomb on the Picadilly line is
> just too complicated.
Not really. Euston is the closest station to KX (2 min) at that time of
day, trains are spaced "2 to 4" minutes apart. In the scenario I laid
out, you could actually have a 4 minute layover at Euston and still
have time to get to the Picadilly Line platform. If you drop the
Picadilly Line bomb at 10:50, that gives you another minute. So for a
total of 12 minutes you have up to 3 minutes of slack time. Picking
the Picadilly Line in this scenario actually builds in additional
buffers because you can pick EITHER trains going westward or eastward.
>
> If we knew the ACTUAL times the trains arrived at King's Cross, it would
> solve the matter. That information would tell you if it was possible
> for someone to ride to Euston and back in time to plant the Picadilly
> Line bomb.
>
The trains start running from various points on the Circle so spacing
is more important than scheduling. The key is the "2 to 4 minutes"
apart. According to people who ride the tube, you could probably get to
the platform in 3 minutes without running. The front of the car (the
southernmost end of the platform) is right near the bottom of the
escalator.
> I don't discount the idea of two people, but if the job CAN be done by
> one man, then I say it was MOST LIKELY done by one man. Why involve a
> second person?
A second person buys you a quite a few benefits. Lookout, failsafe,
distraction if needed, someone to run interference, moral support. To
my thinking the difference between one or two is not terribly
significant because in either case you come back to .... it could be
anyone not just jihadists.
Ed Lake
If someone had thrown a bomb onto a train just as the doors were
closing, I think we'd have heard about that. The place would have been
in a panic long BEFORE the bomb exploded. And I think there are ways to
stop the train in an emergency.
>
>>If the culprit knew the train schedule so well, he'd do things the
>>safest and easiest way. Taking a train to Euston, then another to get
>>back to King's Cross so he could plant the bomb on the Picadilly line is
>>just too complicated.
>
>
> Not really. Euston is the closest station to KX (2 min) at that time of
> day, trains are spaced "2 to 4" minutes apart. In the scenario I laid
> out, you could actually have a 4 minute layover at Euston and still
> have time to get to the Picadilly Line platform. If you drop the
> Picadilly Line bomb at 10:50, that gives you another minute. So for a
> total of 12 minutes you have up to 3 minutes of slack time. Picking
> the Picadilly Line in this scenario actually builds in additional
> buffers because you can pick EITHER trains going westward or eastward.
Maybe, but I just don't see the culprit getting on and STAYING on any
train after planting the first bomb. The objective after planting the
first bomb would be to quickly plant the second and start working your
way to the surface, planting the third on the way up. You do NOT go
somewhere else and then RETURN to a place where you've been before.
To me this all seems to indicate some person who had travelled to King's
Cross hundreds of times and planned the steps out long before he
actually committed the crime.
>
>>If we knew the ACTUAL times the trains arrived at King's Cross, it would
>>solve the matter. That information would tell you if it was possible
>>for someone to ride to Euston and back in time to plant the Picadilly
>>Line bomb.
>>
>
>
> The trains start running from various points on the Circle so spacing
> is more important than scheduling. The key is the "2 to 4 minutes"
> apart. According to people who ride the tube, you could probably get to
> the platform in 3 minutes without running. The front of the car (the
> southernmost end of the platform) is right near the bottom of the
> escalator.
Yes, I saw that posting. It's further evidence that the crime COULD
HAVE been done by one person. He put the Picadilly Line bomb on the
train on his way toward the surface. He simply got off the escalator,
put the bomb on the train, then left and got back on the escalator again
to head to the surface.
He almost certainly had the bomb in his hand and didn't have to take it
out of the bag when he got on the Picadilly Line train. If the bomb was
dark and oblong (the shape of a boxed bottle of liquor) or a color that
matched the walls or floor of the train and ordinary looking, he could
have slipped it under a seat without attracting much attention. And if
he did it immediately after the train arrived, he could exit with the
last of the passengers and he'd look like someone who just got on the
wrong train by accident.
>>I don't discount the idea of two people, but if the job CAN be done by
>>one man, then I say it was MOST LIKELY done by one man. Why involve a
>>second person?
>
>
> A second person buys you a quite a few benefits. Lookout, failsafe,
> distraction if needed, someone to run interference, moral support. To
> my thinking the difference between one or two is not terribly
> significant because in either case you come back to .... it could be
> anyone not just jihadists.
A second person also buys you a lot of risks. There was no need for
lookouts, there was no report of distractions, there was no apparent
need to run interference, and you can never fully trust anyone else
involved in a crime, so moral support isn't as important as keeping the
secret. And the only good way to keep a secret is to have it known by
only one person.
I agree that it could be "anyone not just jihadists". That's what first
intrigued me about all this. I saw TV reports which said that area of
London has a large Muslim population. If true, that can be viewed in
two ways: the culprit was a Muslim from the area OR the culprit knew the
area had a large Muslim population and knew they would get the blame.
I don't want to speculate along those lines, but I'm certainly not
discounting any possibility. That's why I think it's important that the
police consider the idea that this could be the work of one person. If
it was, you can literally compute where he was at almost every moment.
If it is determined that - because of the times the trains arrived or
departed - it could not possibly have been done by one person, THEN you
can start looking at how it could have been done by two people.
If there were two people involved, I would think that they would have
hit two separate areas of London. If the job CAN be done by one person,
then there is simply no reason to involve anyone else.
Peter Vos
Ed Lake wrote:
> If there were two people involved, I would think that they would have
> hit two separate areas of London. If the job CAN be done by one person,
> then there is simply no reason to involve anyone else.
>
You may be right, I just think it is wise to avoid getting locked into
any one theory at this point because you can get tunnel vision. That
is exactly what happened with the Beltway Snipers...everyone was so hot
for white box trucks they let the perps car go on more than one
occasion.
I think for now "one maybe two" is a good conservative theory. You
certainly don't need to invoke a grand conspiracy much less try to tie
in Zarqawi... as some reports have suggested.
Ed Lake
Peter,
I'm not locked into a one man theory. I just feel that IF it could have
been done by one person, then it almost certainly WAS done by one person
and that needs to be checked out as soon as possible.
AND, if it was done by one person, then knowing the times of arrivals of
the various trains would tell you where the culprit was at almost every
moment he was inside King's Cross Station!
That means you can find him on the surveillance camera tapes going from
point A to point B to point C.
If you have more than one person involved, then finding the culprit on
surveillance tapes gets vastly more complicated. So, I would have
people verify that it was not done by a single person before discounting
that idea. That's all I'm saying.
The objective is to get the guy - regardless of whether he's al Qaeda,
IRA, an anti-G8 anarchist or just some lone nut on a crazy mission.
Clive D. W. Feather
Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
>> If the culprit knew the train schedule so well, he'd do things the
>> safest and easiest way. Taking a train to Euston, then another to get
>> back to King's Cross so he could plant the bomb on the Picadilly line is
>> just too complicated.
>
>Not really. Euston is the closest station to KX (2 min) at that time of
>day, trains are spaced "2 to 4" minutes apart.
In practice, they're 2 minutes apart throughout the peak hours.
At Euston Square (*NOT* Euston) you have to go up a staircase, over a
bridge, and down another staircase to change trains. At King's Cross the
two directions are separated by an island platform.
>> If we knew the ACTUAL times the trains arrived at King's Cross, it would
>> solve the matter.
[...]
>The trains start running from various points on the Circle so spacing
>is more important than scheduling. The key is the "2 to 4 minutes"
>apart.
You both appear to be assuming that trains 204 and 216 were targetted
and timing is essential. Much more likely is that two random trains on
that part of the Circle were targeted. They come along every couple of
minutes, after all. The bomb on train 204 exploded just before the point
where one third or so of the trains diverge; that on 216 shortly after
the point where 40% or so diverge. Provided that, on the westbound, you
avoid the visually distinctive Metropolitan Line trains, any train will
do.
Peter Vos
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
> In article <1121097774.9...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
> >> If the culprit knew the train schedule so well, he'd do things the
> >> safest and easiest way. Taking a train to Euston, then another to get
> >> back to King's Cross so he could plant the bomb on the Picadilly line is
> >> just too complicated.
> >
> >Not really. Euston is the closest station to KX (2 min) at that time of
> >day, trains are spaced "2 to 4" minutes apart.
>
> In practice, they're 2 minutes apart throughout the peak hours.
>
> At Euston Square (*NOT* Euston) you have to go up a staircase, over a
> bridge, and down another staircase to change trains. At King's Cross the
> two directions are separated by an island platform.
Thanks for clarifying, I have been saying Euston as shorthand for
Euston Square....
>
> >> If we knew the ACTUAL times the trains arrived at King's Cross, it would
> >> solve the matter.
> [...]
> >The trains start running from various points on the Circle so spacing
> >is more important than scheduling. The key is the "2 to 4 minutes"
> >apart.
>
> You both appear to be assuming that trains 204 and 216 were targetted
> and timing is essential. Much more likely is that two random trains on
> that part of the Circle were targeted. They come along every couple of
> minutes, after all. The bomb on train 204 exploded just before the point
> where one third or so of the trains diverge; that on 216 shortly after
> the point where 40% or so diverge. Provided that, on the westbound, you
> avoid the visually distinctive Metropolitan Line trains, any train will
> do.
>
I wasn't assuming these had any special significance. I was just
accepting the report that those were the trains blown up and working
back from there.
Given the KX setup it is sounding more and more likely the bombs were
just dropped on trains at KX and the perp walked. Even with a more
stringent scenario requiring hopping on and off trains it appears one
guy could have done it. Take out the shuttling and one guy definitely
could do it.
The problem with this is that dramatically decreases the likelihood of
finding the guy. If he is as bright as Kaczynski they may never find
him.
The Beltway Snipers were only found because someone eventually keyed in
to the fact their car kept showing up around shootings.
If it is a loner, one scenario might be for him to surface periodically
between now and the Olympics, blow up a few things and disappear. This
could go on for a long time.
Ed Lake
I'm only assuming that the culprit is familiar with the way things
happen at King's Cross. I'm assuming that he's gotten off the eastbound
Circle line at the same time every weekday for years and knows that a
westbound train arrives at the other side of the platform moments later.
He also knows that as he's going up the elevator, a southbound
Picadilly Line train arrives at an upper level. He's not going by any
specific schedule. He's going by his EXPERIENCE with what happens at
King's Cross. He may even have practiced planting the bombs during that
hour and getting off again(without actually leaving anything behind - or
maybe even leaving some innocent package behind to see if anyone stopped
him.)
Peter Vos
I was basically making the same assumption. I threw in the shuttling
between stations to see if the lone bomber idea fell apart. That
scenario strains credulity, but is clearly possible. If it really is
a lone bomber, I expect we will see him periodically. If he is doing
this based on experience, he probably has also scoped out the cameras
and knows how to avoid or confound them as well.
>
> Ed
> anthraxinvestigation.com
Richard J.
>
> I'm only assuming that the culprit is familiar with the way things
> happen at King's Cross. I'm assuming that he's gotten off the
> eastbound Circle line at the same time every weekday for years and
> knows that a westbound train arrives at the other side of the
> platform moments later.
Moments later? Meaning just a few seconds? No, it will in practice be
anything from 0 to 2 minutes, or longer if the service is disrupted,
which is not uncommon.
> He also knows that as he's going up the elevator, a southbound
> Picadilly Line train arrives at an upper level. He's not going by
> any specific schedule. He's going by his EXPERIENCE with what
> happens at King's Cross.
Clearly *you* don't have any relevant experience of how LU operates in
practice. Apart from the fact that you don't go *up* in a *lift*
(elevator) to the Piccadilly at King's Cross, the idea that a Piccadilly
train arrives at precisely the same time every day ("as he's going up
the elevator") is an absurd assumption.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)
terry...@gmail.com
Anyone who lives in London knows that your regular tube journey - can
take 30mins to 45mins with no obvious problems (50% variance is not
uncommon). Trains are not that punctual - signal faults, flooding
person under the train are daily occurances. Esp Picaddily, circle and
central.
King's cross is packed at rush hour, and is quite a walk between the
circle and pica/victoria lines. Don't think you can plan this sort of
thing..
asdf
This is the same guy who has repeatedly suggested that the bombs were
placed under seats. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd never been on an
Underground train in his life. In any case it's obvious he has no idea
what he's talking about.
Peter Vos
terry...@gmail.com wrote:
> Richard - too true.
>
> Anyone who lives in London knows that your regular tube journey - can
> take 30mins to 45mins with no obvious problems (50% variance is not
> uncommon). Trains are not that punctual - signal faults, flooding
> person under the train are daily occurances. Esp Picaddily, circle and
> central.
>
30 minutes to 45 minutes from KX to Eustone Sq.? Really?
> King's cross is packed at rush hour, and is quite a walk between the
> circle and pica/victoria lines. Don't think you can plan this sort of
> thing..
>
How long a walk is quite a walk... 3 minutes? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?
Peter Vos
Actually I think you have people confused here. I'm the guy who
assumed that it was under a seat or out of the way. I made it clear
that was an assumption and posted it here because I don't ride the tube
and folks here actuallly work on it.
The point of the scenario was to determine if it was possible for one
person to physically get to all three trains during rush hour in a
tight enough window to explain the explosions. The smallest time
window I could come up with was about 12 minutes total elapsed time
assuming the last bomb was placed on the Piccadilly Line at KX between
8:49 and 8:50
I am assuming it is physically possible to go from KX to Euston Sq. and
back in 8 to 5 minutes. Is that not possible?
I am also assuming it is physically possible to get from the Circle
Line to the Piccadilly Line platform in 3 to 5 minutes. Is that not
possible?
If those numbers are possible, then you can't rule out one person doing
this. I am not saying this is what actually happened. But what is
clear is that two people could easily have done this.
Roland Perry
2005, Ed Lake <det...@newsguy.com> remarked:
>If the bomb was dark and oblong (the shape of a boxed bottle of liquor)
>or a color that matched the walls or floor of the train and ordinary
>looking, he could have slipped it under a seat without attracting much
>attention.
Except the trains don't have an "under the seat", in that sense. Some of
the seats have cushions which can be lifted up, but you couldn't do that
without attracting *lots* of attention (and many, perhaps not all) are
fixed in place with cable-ties as part of a years-old security
precaution.
--
Roland Perry
Peter Vos
I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
opposite side of the train. That means the doors that open at KX are
not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.
The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool? Were the blasts on the
204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?
If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.
I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
or nearly the same time? Is it something relatively common? If it is
then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.
If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
can do everything in a walk.
yitzak
what I meant to say was that on a journey that can take 30mins, it can
take 45 mins; Without obvious problems (which there are many daily).
When there are problems it can get to an hour.
Its not an exact science, stations get packed they sometimes stop you
actually getting into the station/platform.
Of course Euston Sq is very close walkable - but its not uncoomon esp
on the circle line to get stuck in a tunnel.
Also no space under seats - only by removing cushions and no rubbish
bins - the IRA saw to that.
Not disputing one man could have done it, but I don't think he had
preplanned trains - just the lines.
Peter Vos
trains. The configuration of the KX stop suggests that he may have
left the bombs by the doors that opened on the KX platform because it
is the doors on the OPPOSITE side that open for other stations.
That makes it even more likely a one man job. Basically you plant the
two bombs on the Circle Line with anywhere from 6 to 10 minutes left
over to get to the Piccadilly Line platform.
What I'm wondering is how commonly do trains going in opposite
directions show up at about the same time on the Circle Line platform
at KX? The reason I ask is I could see this sort of scenario:
Get to Circle Line around 8:00 and wait until you have two trains going
in opposite direction arriving at the platform close in time. For
example, when one is in the station while another is approaching. That
is the pair you pick. The reason being it will give you the most time
(8 to 10 minutes) to get to the Piccadilly Line. There you simply hit
whichever train shows up first. You don't hang around long enough to
hit trains going in both directions on that line because there was no
way you could do that and keep the explosions more or less
synchronized.
This cuts out all the shuttling back and forth and makes it real easy
for one man to do it. It has an added advantage: If you wait to start
the sequence when you have two trains in hand, even if the Piccadilly
Line is out of service you will be guaranteed a double hit. The short
delay on the Russell St. bomb could reflect a longer wait than
anticipated for a target train or it could have been set shorter.
I'm inclined to believe the timers were all set at the same time and
the last train simply took a bit longer to arrive than expected. The
alternative (you set and drop, set and drop, set and drop....) would
require a separate countdown timer to keep track of elapsed time and
would be too confusing for most people, especially working under a
tight schedule with no room for mistakes.
This scenario suggests they should be looking for a male weighing 70 to
80 kg (about 150 to 180 lb) who is in good physical condition, carrying
a backpack traveling from the Circle line platform between 8:35 and
8:45 who takes the escalator to Piccadilly then quickly takes the
escalator to the surface.
fatherivy
>
> If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
> can do everything in a walk.
>
Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs [*] of
explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
weight on their back.
Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
the next target.
[*]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings#Investigation
Peter Vos
fatherivy wrote:
> Peter Vos wrote:
>
> >
> > If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
> > can do everything in a walk.
> >
>
> Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs [*] of
> explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
> weight on their back.
>
> Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
> luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
> yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
> the next target.
Boy Scout backpacking guidelines stipulate 25% to 30% of your weight
for heavy duty hikes. That means you have a guy in good physical shape
weighing 70 to 90 kg (about 150 to 200 lb). If you are planting two on
Circle Line, then you already have one out when the first train
arrives. Grab the second and drop that soon after. Now you are
travelling towards Piccadilly with no more than 30 lbs.... a relatively
small woman could handle that with no problem.
>
> [*]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings#Investigation
Roland Perry
04:48:19 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> remarked:
>I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
>where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
>platform. All (most?) of the other stops have platforms on the
>opposite side of the train.
The only one on that section of the line.
>That means the doors that open at KX are
>not used for the other stops. This might make it possible for someone
>in a crowd to leave a smallish package by the doors that open at KX and
>no one would notice until things had thinned out significantly.
That is certainly a possibility.
>The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
>direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
> Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?
In the UK we tend not abbreviate places like that. Edgware is a suburb
in north London, and Liverpool a big city halfway to Scotland.
You would definitely get as far as Liverpool St, however Edgware Road
also has island platforms, bit I cannot from memory tell you if a Circle
Line train might open the righthand doors there. It wouldn't have done
so earlier in the trip from Kings Cross.
>Were the blasts on the
>204 and 216 on the correct side (KX platform side)?
I have seen no reports that would either confirm or deny the theory.
>If so, then dropping the package near the door while the train was at
>KX might be feasible without attracting attention. That would obviate
>any "babysitting" and means the perp never has to leave KX.
>
>I was also wondering .... how often at KX during rush hour do you see
>Circle Line trains in both directions at the station at the same time
>or nearly the same time?
If there's clockwise one circle line train every 10 minutes (you'd have
to check what the interval actually is) and they are stopped at the
station for 30 seconds (again, check) then you'd have a 1 in 20 chance
that at any instant there was such a train stopped at the station. If
you start the observation when an anticlockwise circle line train enters
the station, and end it when it leaves, then it doesn't alter the
probability very much.
This assumes there's no particular timetable, adhered to, which might
mean that there were always, or never, two circle line trains on either
side of the island. (The island is also very wide, with connecting
passages linking two running tunnels, rather than being a narrow "open
air" island; so you don't tend to see trains on both sides at once
unless you stand at the very eastern end.)
>Is it something relatively common? If it is
>then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
>the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
>minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.
I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.
Similarly, the trip to the Piccadilly line and the wait there can be
very unpredictable because of crowds, non-operational escalators, and
earlier problems with the Piccadilly line which have been mentioned
elsewhere. You might easily get to the Piccadilly line platform and find
no trains at all!
>If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
>can do everything in a walk.
If the scheme you are suggesting was what happened, then the people were
lucky to get the package on board the Piccadilly train when they did -
only perhaps 45 seconds before it detonated.
--
Roland Perry
pvo...@yahoo.com
Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day. There is a
schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
approaching. If they were both stopped you might not have time to
plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
closed.
>
> This assumes there's no particular timetable, adhered to, which might
There is a timetable, but the more critical thing is the spacing out of
cars.
> mean that there were always, or never, two circle line trains on either
> side of the island. (The island is also very wide, with connecting
> passages linking two running tunnels, rather than being a narrow "open
> air" island; so you don't tend to see trains on both sides at once
> unless you stand at the very eastern end.)
>
The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.
> >Is it something relatively common? If it is
> >then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
> >the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
> >minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.
>
> I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
> there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.
I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
this happening, you will certainly catch a break before 9:00
>
> Similarly, the trip to the Piccadilly line and the wait there can be
> very unpredictable because of crowds, non-operational escalators, and
> earlier problems with the Piccadilly line which have been mentioned
> elsewhere. You might easily get to the Piccadilly line platform and find
> no trains at all!
That's why I was budgeting as much time as possible by having the first
two trains as close together in time as possible.
>
> >If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
> >can do everything in a walk.
>
> If the scheme you are suggesting was what happened, then the people were
> lucky to get the package on board the Piccadilly train when they did -
> only perhaps 45 seconds before it detonated.
That is true, and suggests they were flying off the escalator to get to
the train before it left. It also suggests some serious nerve to be
rushing for a train with a ticking time bomb. This suggests someone
with demolition experience (probably former military) and maybe even
combat experience.
> --
> Roland Perry
Ed Lake
> Ed Lake wrote:
>
>>I'm only assuming that the culprit is familiar with the way things
>>happen at King's Cross. I'm assuming that he's gotten off the
>>eastbound Circle line at the same time every weekday for years and
>>knows that a westbound train arrives at the other side of the
>>platform moments later.
>
>
> Moments later? Meaning just a few seconds? No, it will in practice be
> anything from 0 to 2 minutes, or longer if the service is disrupted,
> which is not uncommon.
It doesn't matter if it was moments or minutes. Minutes is better. He
probably took the second bomb out of the bag after getting off the first
Circle Line train and before getting on the second Circle Line train.
And he may have needed to set it or activate it. If he was quickly
getting on and off the second train, he wouldn't have time to fiddle
with the bomb while on the train.
>>He also knows that as he's going up the elevator, a southbound
>>Picadilly Line train arrives at an upper level. He's not going by
>>any specific schedule. He's going by his EXPERIENCE with what
>>happens at King's Cross.
>
>
> Clearly *you* don't have any relevant experience of how LU operates in
> practice. Apart from the fact that you don't go *up* in a *lift*
> (elevator) to the Piccadilly at King's Cross, the idea that a Piccadilly
> train arrives at precisely the same time every day ("as he's going up
> the elevator") is an absurd assumption.
Sorry, I meant escalator not elevator. It was a typo. The front end of
the Picadilly train is near the escalator and the bomb was planted on
the front end of the Picadilly train.
I'd read that the Circle Line is in the deepest tunnel, so I assumed
that the Circle Line passed UNDER the Picadilly Line at King's Cross.
If that's not true, let me know. The bomb on the Picadilly Line
exploded closest to King's Cross, which probably means it was the last
bomb placed on the trains. So, did the bomber go down a level to plant
the third bomb and then go back up to the surface? It doesn't change
anything, but it might be seen as another fact which seems to verify
that the bomber ARRIVED at King's Cross on the eastbound Cirlce Line train.
Ed Lake
I've ridden the London Underground many times, but the last time was
over 15 years ago. If you can't put bombs under seats, then where was
it? It had to be placed somewhere. It was NOT held by a suicide
bomber. Someone said there is a parcel bin near the door. If the seats
fold up when not in use, that doesn't prevent someone from putting a
bomb on the floor beneath it. It just means the bomb will be visible
(perhaps looking like a rolled up newspaper, a box or a paper bag) when
the seat is up, and the seat wouldn't be up for very long on a crowded
train.
Ed
Roland Perry
07:31:16 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, pvo...@yahoo.com remarked:
>Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day.
On the Circle, I doubt it. Or did the question actually refer to any
kind of train on the line?
>There is a
>schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
>30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
>that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
>at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
>approaching.
When asking questions about things like this it's important to be
precise!
> If they were both stopped you might not have time to
>plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
>closed.
So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
would be a sensible answer.
> The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
>so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.
Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
that would suggest the same position on the platform.
>> >Is it something relatively common? If it is
>> >then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
>> >the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
>> >minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.
>>
>> I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
>> there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.
>
>I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
>waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
>this happening,
I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
wrong.
> you will certainly catch a break before 9:00
And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
preset to that time).
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
2005, Ed Lake <det...@newsguy.com> remarked:
>I'd read that the Circle Line is in the deepest tunnel, so I assumed
>that the Circle Line passed UNDER the Picadilly Line at King's Cross.
>If that's not true, let me know.
The Circle line is the *least* deep. And to all intents and purposes
it's a separate station, especially during the current building works in
the booking hall.
>The bomb on the Picadilly Line exploded closest to King's Cross, which
>probably means it was the last bomb placed on the trains.
More than "probably". Absolutely certainly - *if* they were all put on
board at KX just prior to those three trains making their final journey
through the station.
--
Roland Perry
Ed Lake
Agreed! And because he didn't have time to unpack a bomb while ON the
second Circle Line train or ON the Picadilly train before he had to get
off again, he probably took the bomb out of the bag while moving between
trains. That would make it easier to spot him on surveillance tapes.
The bomb wouldn't LOOK like a bomb, of course.
Ed
Ed Lake
> Peter Vos wrote:
>
>>
>> If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you
>> can do everything in a walk.
>>
>
> Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs [*] of
> explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of
> weight on their back.
>
> Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of
> luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to
> yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to
> the next target.
Actually, it isn't that bad. He was only carrying 40 pounds when he got
on the first Circle Line train. He left 10 pounds there and only had to
carry the 30 pounds of explosive a few yards to the second Circle Line
Train. Then he only had to carry 20 pounds to the Picadilly Line
platform. Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to
Euston (Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the
upper deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.
Ed
Roland Perry
>over 15 years ago. If you can't put bombs under seats, then where was
>it? It had to be placed somewhere.
On the floor, probably in the vestibule by the doors.
> It was NOT held by a suicide bomber. Someone said there is a parcel
>bin near the door.
Not a bin. But some trains have a larger than normal vestibule (imagine
some of the seats being missing) so people can transport large bags.
>If the seats fold up when not in use,
The folding seats are so that the "extra big luggage vestibule" areas
can be used for seating if there are no bags present, and if the train
is sufficiently uncrowded that there aren't three or four people
standing in the space the seated passenger would require.
>that doesn't prevent someone from putting a bomb on the floor beneath
>it.
They spring back up violently, the moment you stop sitting on them.
>It just means the bomb will be visible (perhaps looking like a rolled
>up newspaper, a box or a paper bag) when the seat is up, and the seat
>wouldn't be up for very long on a crowded train.
It would, because people would use the space to "*stand* in, on a
crowded train.
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
>(Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper
>deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross.
The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would
he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the
Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene
of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs).
If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing
right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45
minutes.
--
Roland Perry
pvo...@yahoo.com
The theory I heard was he picked that bus because it would arrive at
KXSP and go off while people were exiting the station. However, the bus
was detoured so it went off on a side street.
pvo...@yahoo.com
Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <1121178676.8...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, at
> 07:31:16 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, pvo...@yahoo.com remarked:
>
> >Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day.
>
> On the Circle, I doubt it. Or did the question actually refer to any
> kind of train on the line?
>
> >There is a
> >schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming
> >30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of
> >that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped
> >at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is
> >approaching.
>
> When asking questions about things like this it's important to be
> precise!
>
> > If they were both stopped you might not have time to
> >plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
> >closed.
>
> So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
> before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
> would be a sensible answer.
>
> > The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
> >so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.
>
> Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
> that would suggest the same position on the platform.
according to BBC eastbound was 2nd car and westbound was also 2nd car,
although the police said floor of 3rd car.
>
> >> >Is it something relatively common? If it is
> >> >then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
> >> >the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
> >> >minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.
> >>
> >> I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
> >> there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.
> >
> >I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
> >waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
> >this happening,
>
> I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
> wrong.
>
> > you will certainly catch a break before 9:00
>
> And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
> preset to that time).
I thought we were talking statistically here. If you have 5 to 7
trains passing in a given direction over the course of half an hour and
a 1 in 5 chance that you will have trains in opposite directions
converging on the platform, then at SOME POINT during the half hour you
are virtually guaranteed of this happening at least once.
Given the time of detonation and the relative distances from KXSP, it
looks like that convergence would have to occur around 8:38 to 8:40
>
> --
> Roland Perry
Roland Perry
08:47:17 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, pvo...@yahoo.com remarked:
>> The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would
>> he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the
>> Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene
>> of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs).
>>
>> If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing
>> right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45
>> minutes.
>
>KXSP and go off while people were exiting the station. However, the bus
>was detoured so it went off on a side street.
So why plan on the last bomb going off an hour after the first? The area
would be cleared of people long before that. And why pick a bus that was
heading in exactly the opposite direction?
--
Roland Perry
Roland Perry
08:54:40 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, pvo...@yahoo.com remarked:
>> > If they were both stopped you might not have time to
>> >plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors
>> >closed.
>>
>> So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long
>> before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes
>> would be a sensible answer.
>>
>> > The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car)
>> >so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform.
>>
>> Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then
>> that would suggest the same position on the platform.
>
>according to BBC eastbound was 2nd car and westbound was also 2nd car,
>although the police said floor of 3rd car.
So not in the same place "across" the island platform. To place one on a
2nd car and then the other on a second car would mean you'd have to
cross the island and then walk three or four cars along.
As an addition piece of information: the only access to the platforms
from the outside world is roughly in the centre of the train, because
the "island" is very large (with a booking office and other things in
the middle) and the way it's laid out you have to go through a ticket
barrier that's about halfway down, and between, the platforms. Just to
complicate things, you exit [but not enter] through barriers at the
eastern end of the island.
>> >> >Is it something relatively common? If it is
>> >> >then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize
>> >> >the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10
>> >> >minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line.
>> >>
>> >> I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains
>> >> there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval.
>> >
>> >I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and
>> >waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of
>> >this happening,
>>
>> I think we have pretty much established that the original question was
>> wrong.
>>
>> > you will certainly catch a break before 9:00
>>
>> And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses
>> preset to that time).
>
>I thought we were talking statistically here. If you have 5 to 7
>trains passing in a given direction over the course of half an hour and
>a 1 in 5 chance that you will have trains in opposite directions
>converging on the platform, then at SOME POINT during the half hour you
>are virtually guaranteed of this happening at least once.
There are more trains than that if you allow the use of Metropolitan and
Hammersmith/City trains as well as Circle. They all share the same pair
of platforms. As for the statistics, then if you want strictly *Circle*
line trains, then sod's law says it may never happen. But if you want
*any* trains, it will be happening every few minutes.
Although I'm not sure *why* the trains have to leave in opposite
directions at the same time for the bomber's plan to succeed. Perhaps
you can explain why you think this is the case. Also, whether or not the
timers were set to be 8.50 *before* the bomber knew which trains they
were going to be put on.
>Given the time of detonation and the relative distances from KXSP, it
>looks like that convergence would have to occur around 8:38 to 8:40
Working backwards, that seems to make sense. But would it have mattered
if one of the trains had been 3 minutes closer or further away at 8.50?
--
Roland Perry
Peter Vos
when you are going to do 3 bombs in the Underground? Why have a guy in
the Underground who will be blowing up a bus later?
Paul Terry
Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> writes
>So why plan on the last bomb going off an hour after the first? The
>area would be cleared of people long before that. And why pick a bus
>that was heading in exactly the opposite direction?
The No.30 bus was running from Marble Arch to Hackney Wick (not the
other way round, as initially reported).
It would therefore normally have gone directly from Euston to King's
Cross. However, the police were directing all eastbound traffic away
from King's Cross - hence the reason why the bus ended up at Tavistock
Square.
It has been suggested that the increasing agitation of the suspected
bomber (reported by several people) was because either he knew the
device was about to explode when he was nowhere near the target he
intended (i.e. the rescue operation at KX).
--
Paul Terry
Roland Perry
2005, Paul Terry <nos...@musonix.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>The No.30 bus was running from Marble Arch to Hackney Wick (not the
>other way round, as initially reported).
The "fog of war" seems to be alive and well...
(Meanwhile, the BBC is now reporting that four suicide bombers have been
identified).
--
Roland Perry
Hurt
> I agree that it could be "anyone not just jihadists". That's what first
> intrigued me about all this. I saw TV reports which said that area of
> London has a large Muslim population. If true, that can be viewed in
> two ways: the culprit was a Muslim from the area OR the culprit knew the
> area had a large Muslim population and knew they would get the blame.
The culprit or culprits may also have stalked (shadowed) individual
Muslims known to ride a particular schedule. No doubt this bombing was
rehearsed to the minute many times before it was implemented, why not
include a desirable scapegoat. It all comes down to motive though.
Who had the most to gain, or not lose?
Clive D. W. Feather
writes
>I'm only assuming that the culprit is familiar with the way things
>happen at King's Cross. I'm assuming that he's gotten off the
>eastbound Circle line at the same time every weekday for years and
>knows that a westbound train arrives at the other side of the platform
He's also away with the fairies, because that isn't how the station is
arranged.
--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home: <cl...@davros.org>
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: <http://www.davros.org>
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Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: <cl...@davros.org>
Clive D. W. Feather
Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
>I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
>where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
>platform.
This is wrong. Gloucester Road and South Kensington also meet this
description. In addition, Edgware Road and Aldgate have two island
platforms and Circle line trains use the outermost faces (usually but
not required at the former, required at the latter).
Outer Rail trains also have platforms on the right at Tower Hill and
Mansion House.
>The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
>direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
Edgware Road (see above) and Aldgate.
> Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?
No. Circle Line trains don't go to either.
Clive D. W. Feather
Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
>Thanks for clarifying, I have been saying Euston as shorthand for
>Euston Square....
Well, stop it. I don't say "York" as shorthand for "New York".
Peter Vos
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
> In article <1121119509.7...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
> Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
> >Thanks for clarifying, I have been saying Euston as shorthand for
> >Euston Square....
>
> Well, stop it. I don't say "York" as shorthand for "New York".
K :)
Peter Vos
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
> In article <1121168899.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
> >I saw a post saying the KX stop is the only stop on the Circle Line
> >where trains in both directions are separated by an central island
> >platform.
>
> This is wrong. Gloucester Road and South Kensington also meet this
> description. In addition, Edgware Road and Aldgate have two island
> platforms and Circle line trains use the outermost faces (usually but
> not required at the former, required at the latter).
>
> Outer Rail trains also have platforms on the right at Tower Hill and
> Mansion House.
>
> >The question I have is how far would you have to travel in either
> >direction from KX before the doors that open at KX would be used again?
>
> Edgware Road (see above) and Aldgate.
Kind of odd coincidence the bombs went off there. But examining your
detailed layout it actually looks like the bombs went off right around
Aldgate Junction and Praed Street Junction. Is that true?
If true, it suggests a significantly higher level of research beyond
merely riding the trains and checking out TfL maps. I would guess 99%
or more of riders who actually transit those junctions never think
about them.
If it was actually intended, then scheduling becomes more relevant
because you have to pick two trains that will simultaneously hit the
junctions. Hard to believe it was simple dumb luck.
If you have that kind of planning and since they are now saying one
bomber per train, I wonder why they didn't hop off at Edgware Road and
Liverpool Street while leaving the packages behind. The Piccadilly
bomber didn't even have to be on the 311. He could have dropped the
bomb in the luggage vestibule at KXSP or simply tossed it in as the
doors closed.
Curiouser and curiouser.
>
> > Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?
>
> No. Circle Line trains don't go to either.
Now yer bein' churlish.... Edgware ROAD and Liverpool STREET
I think the proclivity for abbr. is a cultural thing. In the US we
abbr. everything. It's not New York City... it's New York.. or The
City. It's not Washington D.C. ... its DC. It's not the United States
of America .... it's the US. We don't watch television, but we love
our TV. We don't abuse prisoners at Guantanamo Bay... we hold em at
Gitmo. etc etc.
Helen Deborah Vecht
> Now yer bein' churlish.... Edgware ROAD and Liverpool STREET
> I think the proclivity for abbr. is a cultural thing. In the US we
> abbr. everything. It's not New York City... it's New York.. or The
> City. It's not Washington D.C. ... its DC. It's not the United States
> of America .... it's the US. We don't watch television, but we love
> our TV. We don't abuse prisoners at Guantanamo Bay... we hold em at
> Gitmo. etc etc.
Abbreviation is fine if it does not induce ambiguity, or mislead.
I repeat: Edgware ROAD is NOT Edgware and I have had to reassure
concerned friends that I was many miles from any bombs.
Liverpool Street is NOT Liverpool.
Tottenham Court Road is NOT Tottenham. Abbreviate the former as 'TCR'
and I'm happy; abbreviate it as 'Tottenham' and you're LOST!
--
Helen D. Vecht: helen...@zetnet.co.uk
Edgware.
David Splett
news:1121262104.7...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> If true, it suggests a significantly higher level of research beyond
> merely riding the trains and checking out TfL maps. I would guess 99%
> or more of riders who actually transit those junctions never think
> about them.
> If it was actually intended, then scheduling becomes more relevant
> because you have to pick two trains that will simultaneously hit the
> junctions. Hard to believe it was simple dumb luck.
Even if they had access to the current timetables, the realities of the
Underground (especially the Circle Line) mean that there is still little
chance that the trains will actually get to the junctions at the advertised
time. I just find it implausible that the bombers could choose a specific
time and then be able to be in the chosen spots within a 50-second window.
One other thing strikes me as strange. If we assume the Picc bomber got on
the train at King's Cross, this was only probably a minute or two before the
time of explosion. If the bomb *had* to go off at 0851 he was cutting things
very fine, as all it would have needed was a gap in the service and things
would not have gone according to plan. ISTR that the Picc was disrupted at
the time - perhaps this was a factor.
Paul Terry
Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
>If it was actually intended, then scheduling becomes more relevant
>because you have to pick two trains that will simultaneously hit the
>junctions. Hard to believe it was simple dumb luck.
The bombs were almost certainly detonated manually. The police have said
that no timing devices have been found in the remains.
>If you have that kind of planning and since they are now saying one
>bomber per train, I wonder why they didn't hop off at Edgware Road and
>Liverpool Street while leaving the packages behind.
Dying for "the cause" was an important part of the entire mission.
--
Paul Terry
Roland Perry
Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Helen Deborah Vecht <helen...@zetnet.co.uk>
remarked:
>Liverpool Street is NOT Liverpool.
But Liverpool Lime Street is! (Keeping on a transport topic).
Tourists at places where trains go to both LS and LLS (and I believe
there was one such pair of trains timed to depart Cambridge at the exact
same time) often do get confused.
--
Roland Perry
Clive D. W. Feather
Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> writes
>But Liverpool Lime Street is! (Keeping on a transport topic).
>
>Tourists at places where trains go to both LS and LLS
"LLS" being London Liverpool Street, I presume?
[I won't get my coat, because it's too hot.]
Clive D. W. Feather
Peter Vos <pvo...@yahoo.com> writes
>Kind of odd coincidence the bombs went off there. But examining your
>detailed layout it actually looks like the bombs went off right around
>Aldgate Junction and Praed Street Junction. Is that true?
Near, not at. In the latter case, I believe the train was only just
leaving Edgware Road and hadn't got near the junction.
>If true, it suggests a significantly higher level of research beyond
>merely riding the trains and checking out TfL maps.
Not really: the junctions are obvious from the maps and from riding the
trains.
>If it was actually intended, then scheduling becomes more relevant
>because you have to pick two trains that will simultaneously hit the
>junctions.
But they didn't, and in any case it isn't predictable on a day-to-day
basis.
>I wonder why they didn't hop off at Edgware Road and
>Liverpool Street while leaving the packages behind.
That's a different question which we may never know the answer to.
>> > Would you get as far as Edgware and Liverpool?
>> No. Circle Line trains don't go to either.
>Now yer bein' churlish.... Edgware ROAD and Liverpool STREET
>
>I think the proclivity for abbr. is a cultural thing. In the US we
>abbr. everything.
In the UK we don't, particularly when it matters.
Near me is a station where trains go from the same platform to Liverpool
Street and to Liverpool. Liverpool Lime Street, to be precise. Details
matter.