Communism, Bolshevism and Jews
Waldo
whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918 thru
1940.
Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the prominence
of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
I posted the following quote from Leon Trotsky:
"Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
news:Xns932797ED91B...@207.35.177.135...
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> news:3e53da71$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>
> > Would you care to argue with the Jew / Bolshevik / Communist Trotsky
> > on the matter?
> >
> > From Leon Trotsky's Thermidor and Anti-semitism:
> >
> > _____________________________
> >
> > ". . . [N]aturally the Jews occupied a disproportionately large place
> > among the bureaucracy and particularly so in the lower and middle
> > levels. Of course we can close our eyes to that fact and limit
> > ourselves to vague generalities about the equality and brotherhood of
> > all races. But an ostrich policy will not advance us a single step.
> > The hatred of the peasants and the workers for the bureaucracy is a
> > fundamental fact of Soviet life. The despotism of the regime, the
> > persecution of every critic, the stifling of every living though,
> > finally the judicial frame-ups are merely a reflection of this basic
> > fact. Even by a priori reasoning it is impossible not to conclude that
> > the hatred for the bureaucracy would assume an anti-Semitic color, at
> > least in those places where the Jewish functionaries compose a
> > significant percentage of the population and are thrown into relief
> > against a broad background of the peasant masses."
> >
> > Leon Trotsky, Feb. 22, 1937
> > _____________________________
>
> You know, on second glance, this quote doesn't even say what Waldo seems
to
> think it says.
I don't "think" it says anything other than what is *does* say, Steve. but
apparently YOU do.
> It doesn't say at all that communism was a Jewish movement, or even that
> Jews were disproportionaly represented in the communist movement (a point
> which I do not dispute).
Given the evidence recently presented to you, how could you do otherwise?
> It highlights the fact that the communists used
> what Jews were involved with the movement and ultimately the state
> disproportinately in lower and mid-level bureucratic positions, so that
> hostility to the state would be funnelled against them, despite the fact
> that they were not the ones with decision-making authority.
ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
Are you saying that those meanie Goyim commies *deliberately* put the poor,
helpless and benevolent Jews in low-level bureaucratic positions so that the
anger of the masses would be focused on the helpless JEWS rather than the
Goys in charge???
Talk about a one man orgy of Jewish victimhood!
Your fantasies are really getting the better of you, Steve.
> I wonder how you think this quote helps your case, Waldo.
Even given your absolutely BIZARRE spin on Trotsky's statements, it sure
isn't helping YOUR case, is it Steve.
> Or did you even
> bother to read it, figuring that just so long as it said "Jews" and
> "communism" in the same sentence, you could make it mean whatever you
> wanted it to mean.
Well Mr. Mock, re-read Trotsky's statement above, and then view it in the
light of what you read below. Then tell us again how those evil Goyim
Commies used the poor, innocent, gullible Jews as the scapegoats for the
anger of the tortured masses!
_________________________________
"Half of the six members of the politburo that was the supreme government of
Soviet Russia in 1920 were Jews. The first head of the Soviet secret police
was Jewish. Jews were prominent in the leadership of the Communist party in
Germany, Hungary, and Austria. In the 1920s close to half the members of the
small and politically insignificant American Communist party were Jewish."
("The Sacred Chain - A History of the Jews," Norman F. Cantor,
HarperCollins, 1995) (Dr. Cantor is the author of several books on Jewish
history and a professor of history at New York University.)
'During the heyday of the Cold War, American Jewish publicists spent a lot
of time denying that-as 1930s anti-Semites claimed-Jews played a
disproportionately important role in Soviet and world Communism. The truth
is until the early 1950s. Jews did play such a role, and there is nothing to
be ashamed of. In time, Jews will learn to take pride in the record of the
Jewish Communists in the Soviet Union and elsewhere. It was a species of
striking back." -- The Jewish Experience, "Stalin's Jews", pp. 364, Norman
F. Cantor, Castle Books, 1996.
"Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the first Soviet
commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish position in the
Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White Armies which
opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as common
enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).
"The Bolshevik revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish
dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in
the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to
Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction and by Jewish planning,
shall also, through the same Jewish mental an physical forces, become a
reality all over the world." (The American Hebrew, September 10, 1920)
"There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself, in the fact that so many
Jews are Bolshevists. The ideals of Bolshevism are consonant with many of
the highest ideals of Judaism." (Jewish Chronicle, London April, 4, 1919)
"You have not begun to appreciate the real depth of our guilt. We are
intruders. We are disturbers. We are subverters. We have been at the bottom
not merely of the latest great war but of all your wars, not only of the
Russian but of every other major revolution in your history." (Marcus Eli
Ravage, Century Magazine, January-February 1928).
[Marcus Eli Ravage, "Commissary to the Gentiles", Century Magazine,
January-February 1928 -W]
"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist
party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the
Kremlin, p. 81)
[Lazar Kaganovich was the Jewish orchestrator of the great man-made
Ukrainian famine under Stalin. Kaganovitch was responsible for the death by
starvation of MILLIONS of Ukrainians- Waldo comment]
"We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred.... We who
have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted of having given
it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the world's seducers, its
destroyers, its incendiaries, its executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface
to the book The World Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor
George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
"In 1897 was founded the Bund, the union of Jewish workers in Poland and
Lithuania. . . They engaged in revolutionary activity upon a large scale,
and their energy made them the spearhead of the Party" (Article on
"Communism" by Harold J. Laski, Encyc. Brit., Vol. III, pp 824-827).
"Half of the six members of the politburo that was the supreme government of
Soviet Russia in 1920 were Jews. The first head of the Soviet secret police
was Jewish. Jews were prominent in the leadership of the Communist party in
Germany, Hungary, and Austria. In the 1920s close to half the members of the
small and politically insignificant American Communist party were Jewish."
("The Sacred Chain - A History of the Jews," Norman F. Cantor,
HarperCollins, 1995)
Like Cantor, Benjamin Ginsberg discusses the general preponderance of Jews
among the Soviet police agencies in his 1994 book "The Fatal Embrace - Jews
and the State": "During the 1920s and 1930s, Jews were a major element in
the secret police and other Soviet security forces. Genrikh Yagoda, for
instance, served as chief of the secret police during the 1930s. Yagoda had
been a pharmacist before the Revolution and specialized in preparing poisons
for his agents to use in liquidating Stalin's opponents."
Ginsberg continues in the next paragraph by describing how Jews greatly
expanded and organized the murderous Soviet Gulag prison system: "Other
high-ranking Jewish secret policemen included Matvei Berman and Naftali
Frenkel who helped to expand and institutionalize the slave labor system.
Slave laborers working under Frenkel's supervision built the White-Sea
Baltic Canal in 1932. As many as 200,000 workers perished while completing
this project. Another Jewish security officer, K. V. Pauker, served as chief
of operations of the secret police in the 1930s. Lev lnzhir was chief
accountant for the Gulag. M. T. Gay headed the special secret police
department that conducted the purges of the 1930s. In what came to be called
the "Great Terror," he supervised the mass arrests, trials, and executions
of Stalin's opponents. Two other Jewish secret policemen, A. A. Slutsky and
Boris Berman, were in charge of Soviet terror and espionage abroad during
the 1930s. Jews were also important in the Red Army. In addition to Trotsky,
prominent Jewish generals included Yona Yakir, who was a member of the
Communist party central committee; Dmitri Schmidt, a civil war hero and
commander of the Kiev area; and Yakob Kreiser, a hero of the defense of
Moscow during the Second World War."
The Jewish Encyclopedia acknowledges the preponderance of Jews among the
Soviet power structure and that large numbers of Russians associated Jews
with Bolsheviks: "Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the
first Soviet commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish
position in the Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White
Armies which opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as
common enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336). The recent tome, "The
Black Book of Communism", makes several references to this fact when
mentioning the numberous anti-Soviet rebellions that occurred in the first
three decades of Bolshevism where the people were speaking against "Jews and
Bolsheviks." The two were essentially considered one in the same.
In another book, Cantor provides confirmation of Jewish prominence in other
important areas of the communist government: " The founders of the Soviet
secret police (later KGB), headquartered in Lubyanka prison in Moscow, were
mostly Jews. Jews also took leadership roles, down into the early 1950s, in
the Communist parties of Germany, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and
Rumania. In the struggle for succession to Lenin in the 1920s, leading to
the defeat and exile of the Jewish Trotsky Bronstein), most of the
high-level Soviet Jews made the mistake of supporting Stalin, an Asiatic
anti-Semite who in the purge trials in the mid-1930s eventually eliminated
these Jewish "Old Bolsheviks." But even to some degree after the Great
Purge, Jews were still prevalent in powerful Soviet government positions and
many of Stalin's cohorts in the 1940s had Jewish wives. Here is a cool
appraisal of Stalin's Jews, published in 1994 by the Russian writer Arkady
Vaksberg.
* * *
"We were told that hundreds of agitators had followed in the trail of
Trotsky (Bronstein) these men having come over from the lower east side of
New York. Some of them when they learned that I was the American Pastor in
Petrograd, stepped up to me and seemed very much pleased that there was
somebody who could speak English, and their broken English showed that they
had not qualified as being Americas. A number of these men called on me and
were impressed with the strange Yiddish element in this thing right from the
beginning, and it soon became evident that more than half the agitators in
the socalled Bolshevik movement were Jews...I have a firm conviction that
this thing is Yiddish, and that one of its bases is found in the east side
of New York...The latest startling information, given me by someone with
good authority, startling information, is this, that in December, 1918, in
the northern community of Petrograd that is what they call the section of
the Soviet regime under the Presidency of the man known as Apfelbaum
(Zinovieff) out of 388 members, only 16 happened to be real Russians, with
the exception of one man, a Negro from America who calls himself Professor
Gordon.
"I was impressed with this, Senator, that shortly after the great revolution
of the winter of 1917, there were scores of Jews standing on the benches and
soap boxes, talking until their mouths frothed, and I often remarked to my
sister, 'Well, what are we coming to anyway. This all looks so Yiddish.' Up
to that time we had see very few Jews, because there was, as you know, a
restriction against having Jews in Petrograd, but after the revolution they
swarmed in there and most of the agitators were Jews.
"I might mention this, that when the Bolshevik came into power all over
Petrograd, we at once had a predominance of Yiddish proclamations, big
posters and everything in Yiddish. It became very evident that now that was
to be one of the great languages of Russia; and the real Russians did not
take kindly to it."
(Dr. George A. Simons, a former superintendent of the Methodist Missions in
Russia, Bolshevik Propaganda Hearing Before the Sub-Committee of the
Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 65th Congress)
* * *
__________________________
Of course, even in the face of the above, and all of the other evidence that
has been presented to you by others, now and in the past, you are STILL free
to pooh-pooh the idea that Jews played an EXTREMELY important role in
Bolshevism and subsequent Soviet / Eastern European Communism.
Indeed, you would be derelict in you duties as a Semitist if you did NOT
continue to deny the blood that is on the hands of the Communist Jews - many
of which went on to become important political figures in Israel - and no
doubt had a strong influence in shaping Israel into the cruel MONSTER that
it is today.
**
Waldo
Observer at Large
Philip Mathews
news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
> In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
> whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
> subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918 thru
> 1940.
> Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the
prominence
> of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
No, we were trying to rein in the lies told by Jew haters like "Waldo".
[...]
> > You know, on second glance, this quote doesn't even say what Waldo seems
> to
> > think it says.
> I don't "think" it says anything other than what is *does* say, Steve. but
> apparently YOU do.
> > It doesn't say at all that communism was a Jewish movement, or even that
> > Jews were disproportionaly represented in the communist movement (a
point
> > which I do not dispute).
> Given the evidence recently presented to you, how could you do otherwise?
No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense from
antisemitic websites.
> > It highlights the fact that the communists used
> > what Jews were involved with the movement and ultimately the state
> > disproportinately in lower and mid-level bureucratic positions, so that
> > hostility to the state would be funnelled against them, despite the fact
> > that they were not the ones with decision-making authority.
> ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
> Are you saying that those meanie Goyim commies *deliberately* put the
poor,
> helpless and benevolent Jews in low-level bureaucratic positions so that
the
> anger of the masses would be focused on the helpless JEWS rather than the
> Goys in charge???
Apparently Waldo is now denying what his own quote said!
> Talk about a one man orgy of Jewish victimhood!
Talk about a moron.
[...]
> Well Mr. Mock, re-read Trotsky's statement above, and then view it in the
> light of what you read below. Then tell us again how those evil Goyim
> Commies used the poor, innocent, gullible Jews as the scapegoats for the
> anger of the tortured masses!
"Waldo" is ashamed to note his source for this cut and paste.
These quotes are from the antisemite Ian McKinney and shouldn't be trusted.
Let's look at one which amply illustrates how little credibility one should
place in such pronouncements on the face of it.
> "In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet
communist
> party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
> population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the
> Kremlin, p. 81)
52 % of the membership during the Bolshevik era.
Well, I posted the data on this issue yesterday, and Steve Mock re-posted it
today.
Let's have a look.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
NATIONAL ORIGIN OF COMMUNIST PARTY MEMBERS, 1922
Number Percent Per 1,000
of party of of the
Nationality members party population
Great Russians 270,409 72.00 3.80
Ukrainians 22,078 5.88 0.94
Jews 19,564 5.20 7.20
Latvians 9,512 2.53 78.00
Georgians 7,378 1.96 4.52
Tatars 6,534 1.72 1.19
Poles 5,649 1.50 10.80
Belorussians 5,534 1.47 1.67
Kirghiz 4,964 1.32 0.89
Armenians 3,828 1.02 2.91
Germans 2,217 0.59 1.98
Uzbeks 2,043 0.54 0.76
Estonians 1,964 0.53 16.30
Ossetins 1,699 0.45 8.00
Others 12,528 3.29
------- ------ ------
375,901 100.00 2.90 (average)
This is quoted by the very respected historian of Russia, Richard
Pipes of Harvard, in his book _The_Formation_of_the_Soviet_Union,
Harvard University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-674-30951-0, on page 278.
-----------
So the percentage of Jewish membership in 1922 wasn't 52%, but 5.2%.
Looks like someone cooked Waldo's stats!
--
Philip Mathews
"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."
Samuel Johnson
Steven Mock
news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
No. Trotsky is. Try and keep up.
<snip: rehashed Tavish crap that has been debunked about a million times>
Steven Mock
--
"I may not agree with your bumper sticker;
but I'll defend your right to stick it." - Ed Anger
----> Tavish <----
Steven Mock <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote:
><snip: rehashed Tavish crap that has been debunked about a million times>
How is that? Name call and personal attack AFTER deleting what I posted from
your reply as you did above (which has been done numerous times) is not
debunking what I post!
---
>I ask-- why do we never see Jews criticize the communism
>which existed before Stalin took control?
"Because there was very little to criticize."
Susan Cohen - January 24, 2001
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&rnum=4&selm=3A6F230F.3AFF4272%40his.com
Message-ID: <3A6F230F...@his.com>
Waldo
"Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
> > In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
> > whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
> > subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918 thru
> > 1940.
>
> > Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the
> prominence
> > of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
>
> No, we were trying to rein in the lies told by Jew haters like "Waldo".
You were promoting / defending your Semitist agenda via your usual method
of squirm, squeal, dodge and subterfuge, Philthy.
So what else is new?
> [...]
>
> > > You know, on second glance, this quote doesn't even say what Waldo
seems
> > to
> > > think it says.
>
> > I don't "think" it says anything other than what is *does* say, Steve.
but
> > apparently YOU do.
>
> > > It doesn't say at all that communism was a Jewish movement, or even
that
> > > Jews were disproportionaly represented in the communist movement (a
> point
> > > which I do not dispute).
>
> > Given the evidence recently presented to you, how could you do
otherwise?
>
> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense from
> antisemitic websites.
Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited. If you cannot disprove these
cites, you are left standing with your limp, impotent Kosherized dick in
your hand (as usual).
> > > It highlights the fact that the communists used
> > > what Jews were involved with the movement and ultimately the state
> > > disproportinately in lower and mid-level bureucratic positions, so
that
> > > hostility to the state would be funnelled against them, despite the
fact
> > > that they were not the ones with decision-making authority.
>
> > ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > Are you saying that those meanie Goyim commies *deliberately* put the
> poor,
> > helpless and benevolent Jews in low-level bureaucratic positions so that
> the
> > anger of the masses would be focused on the helpless JEWS rather than
the
> > Goys in charge???
>
> Apparently Waldo is now denying what his own quote said!
The quote said that Jews (a minority) were VERY prominent in Bolshevik /
communist bureaucracy, and that the peasants were AWARE of the Jewish stench
of their oppressors, and that this awareness created animosity toward Jews.
You and Mock (of course) try to twist it into some sort of Communist scheme
to victimize poor helpless Jews!
You clearly have NO shame.
> > Talk about a one man orgy of Jewish victimhood!
>
> Talk about a moron.
LOL!
> [...]
>
>
> > Well Mr. Mock, re-read Trotsky's statement above, and then view it in
the
> > light of what you read below. Then tell us again how those evil Goyim
> > Commies used the poor, innocent, gullible Jews as the scapegoats for the
> > anger of the tortured masses!
>
> "Waldo" is ashamed to note his source for this cut and paste.
Not in the least.
> These quotes are from the antisemite Ian McKinney and shouldn't be
trusted.
They should be and WILL be trusted until and unless Philthy or his cohorts
can PROVE that they are false - and of course, Philthy will NOT be able to
provide such evidence - and will be reduced to asserting that the quotes
"shouldn't be trusted" because the compiler of the quotes has been labeled
as an "anti-Semite".
Meanwhile, we should accept any and all "quotes" provided by Philthy, Mock,
McVay, Keren, etc. as GOSPEL and without question - right Philthy?
Prove that McKinney's quotes are inaccurate, Philip.
Prove that the words of the Jews Norman F. Cantor and Benjamin Ginsberg have
been misquoted.
The burden of proof is on you, and we're waiting, you pusillanimous pustule.
> Let's look at one which amply illustrates how little credibility one
should
> place in such pronouncements on the face of it.
>
> > "In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet
> communist
> > party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
> > population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of
the
> > Kremlin, p. 81)
The quote is attributed to the Jew Stuart Kahan, and the question is whether
McKinney quoted Kahan (the grandson of Lazar Kaganovich, Jewish Bolshevik
murderer of MILLIONS) correctly.
Can you PROVE that he did NOT quote Kahan correctly, Philthy?
Can you PROVE that McKinney did not quote the *others* correctly?
If not, you're PHUCKED.
The figures above were posted by KNOWN Semitists (you and Mock) and are
therefore suspect.
Furthermore, Pipes is STRONGLY suspected as being a Semitist, and is ALSO
suspect.
Of course, Pipes is a "very respected" historian at Harvard, isn't he?
Then again, Norman F. Cantor is a "very respected" historian at New York
University, and he says:
____________________
"Half of the six members of the politburo that was the supreme government of
Soviet Russia in 1920 were Jews. The first head of the Soviet secret police
was Jewish. Jews were prominent in the leadership of the Communist party in
Germany, Hungary, and Austria. In the 1920s close to half the members of the
small and politically insignificant American Communist party were Jewish."
("The Sacred Chain - A History of the Jews," Norman F. Cantor,
HarperCollins, 1995) (Dr. Cantor is the author of several books on Jewish
history and a professor of history at New York University.)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/006092652X/qid=1045814507/sr=1
-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5580658-1777405?v=glance&s=books
[Buy the book and PROVE him wrong, Philthy!]
'During the heyday of the Cold War, American Jewish publicists spent a lot
of time denying that-as 1930s anti-Semites claimed-Jews played a
disproportionately important role in Soviet and world Communism. The truth
is until the early 1950s. Jews did play such a role, and there is nothing to
be ashamed of. In time, Jews will learn to take pride in the record of the
Jewish Communists in the Soviet Union and elsewhere. It was a species of
striking back." -- The Jewish Experience, "Stalin's Jews", pp. 364, Norman
F. Cantor, Castle Books, 1996.
___________________________________
Someone is LYING here. Pipes has a Semitist motive for denying the
prevalence of Jews in Bolshevism - so does Cantor - but Cantor says "damn
the torpedoes", and tells it like it is, taking PRIDE in the accomplishments
of his fellow Jews in their domination / murder of the wretched Goyim!
Who are we to believe?
> So the percentage of Jewish membership in 1922 wasn't 52%, but 5.2%.
Prove that McKinney misquoted Kahan, or that Kahan was wrong.
It should be noted that Kahan was NOT ashamed of Kaganovich (his
grandfather), but was PROUD of his accomplishments, his only regret being
that, as a result of grandpa's exploits, Jews occasionally suffered.
> Looks like someone cooked Waldo's stats!
Someone's stats were cooked by someone, and chances are that the perpetrator
was a Semitist such as Pipes, who, like you, was trying to hide the blood on
the hands of Communist Jews.
Your cite from Pipes is a tool for Semitist propaganda, in which he seeks
to absolve all Jews from any stain of wrongdoing (as usual).
It's the battle of the so-called "anti-Semites" and the candid Semitists, vs
the LYING Semitists (that would be you, Philthy)
Who will prevail?
Simple: Your lies will perish, Philthy.
Come over for coffee some time, Philip! I'll buy.
Black Knight
> news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
> > In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
> > whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
> > subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918 thru
> > 1940.
>
> > Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the
> prominence
> > of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
>
> No, we were trying to rein in the lies told by Jew haters like "Waldo".
>
>
The whole idea that Jews are Communists is self-contradictory.
Communism is an atheist philosophy. Judaism is a religion that
worships God. The minute someone embraces Communism, he is no longer a
Jew.
Bruno
Philip Mathews
> "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
> > "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
> > > In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
> > > whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
> > > subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918 thru
> > > 1940.
>
> > > Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the
> prominence
> > > of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
> >
> > No, we were trying to rein in the lies told by Jew haters like "Waldo".
> You were promoting / defending your Semitist agenda via your usual method
> of squirm, squeal, dodge and subterfuge, Philthy.
No, we pointing out the lies that people like you must resort to.
Rather than studying the issue by reading scholars in the field, you
post crap from a know nothing Jew hater because it agrees with your
own hatreds.
Pointing that out ensures that only someone as out of touch with
reality as you would pay any attention to your rantings.
This post is an excellent case in point.
> > [...]
> >
> > > > You know, on second glance, this quote doesn't even say what Waldo
> seems
> to
> > > > think it says.
>
> > > I don't "think" it says anything other than what is *does* say, Steve.
> but
> > > apparently YOU do.
>
> > > > It doesn't say at all that communism was a Jewish movement, or even
> that
> > > > Jews were disproportionaly represented in the communist movement (a
> point
> > > > which I do not dispute).
>
> > > Given the evidence recently presented to you, how could you do
> otherwise?
> >
> > No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense from
> > antisemitic websites.
> Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
And as demonstrate below, they are worthless.
But then you don't care that you're spreading lies. As long as it
feeds the hate, you're happy.
>
> > > > It highlights the fact that the communists used
> > > > what Jews were involved with the movement and ultimately the state
> > > > disproportinately in lower and mid-level bureucratic positions, so
> that
> > > > hostility to the state would be funnelled against them, despite the
> fact
> > > > that they were not the ones with decision-making authority.
>
> > > ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> > > Are you saying that those meanie Goyim commies *deliberately* put the
> poor,
> > > helpless and benevolent Jews in low-level bureaucratic positions so that
> the
> > > anger of the masses would be focused on the helpless JEWS rather than
> the
> > > Goys in charge???
> >
> > Apparently Waldo is now denying what his own quote said!
> The quote said that Jews (a minority) were VERY prominent in Bolshevik /
> communist bureaucracy, and that the peasants were AWARE of the Jewish stench
> of their oppressors, and that this awareness created animosity toward Jews.
Exactly genius! Then you suggest the "goyim" had all the power and
put Jews in low-level positions.
The only stench is your desparate argumentation, which results in you
contradicting yourself in your own posts!
> > > Talk about a one man orgy of Jewish victimhood!
> >
> > Talk about a moron.
>
> LOL!
>
>
> > [...]
> >
> >
> > > Well Mr. Mock, re-read Trotsky's statement above, and then view it in
> the
> > > light of what you read below. Then tell us again how those evil Goyim
> > > Commies used the poor, innocent, gullible Jews as the scapegoats for the
> > > anger of the tortured masses!
> >
> > "Waldo" is ashamed to note his source for this cut and paste.
> Not in the least.
But Waldo did not note his source!
> > These quotes are from the antisemite Ian McKinney and shouldn't be
> trusted.
> They should be and WILL be trusted until and unless Philthy or his cohorts
> can PROVE that they are false - and of course,
No, they will not be trusted because as I demonstrate, McKinney is a
liar who should not be trusted.
> Meanwhile, we should accept any and all "quotes" provided by Philthy, Mock,
> McVay, Keren, etc. as GOSPEL and without question - right Philthy?
I got news for you, "Waldo", quotes from experts in the field carry
more weight than from a Jew hating nobody.
> Prove that McKinney's quotes are inaccurate, Philip.
>
> Prove that the words of the Jews Norman F. Cantor and Benjamin Ginsberg have
> been misquoted.
> The burden of proof is on you, and we're waiting, you pusillanimous pustule.
No it isn't. Contrary data from people knowledgeable in the field have
shown that your, and Seneca's, assertions are not worth the time.
> > Let's look at one which amply illustrates how little credibility one
> should
> > place in such pronouncements on the face of it.
> > > "In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet
> communist
> > > party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
> > > population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of
> the
> > > Kremlin, p. 81)
> The quote is attributed to the Jew Stuart Kahan, and the question is whether
> McKinney quoted Kahan (the grandson of Lazar Kaganovich, Jewish Bolshevik
> murderer of MILLIONS) correctly.
No, that is not the question. The question is whether it's true.
> Can you PROVE that he did NOT quote Kahan correctly, Philthy?
>
> Can you PROVE that McKinney did not quote the *others* correctly?
>
> If not, you're PHUCKED.
Poor little "Waldo" senses he's being set up for the fall!
The figures come from one of the world's experts on Russian history.
Your's come from a guy named Ian McKinney.
> Furthermore, Pipes is STRONGLY suspected as being a Semitist, and is ALSO
> suspect.
Not to normal people. The standards of a Jew hater hardly apply.
[...]
> > So the percentage of Jewish membership in 1922 wasn't 52%, but 5.2%.
> Prove that McKinney misquoted Kahan, or that Kahan was wrong.
Irrelevant.
The 52% figure is wrong. McKinney was told this long ago and continues
to post the same thing. He's spreading a lie, as are you.
[...]
> > Looks like someone cooked Waldo's stats!
> Someone's stats were cooked by someone, and chances are that the perpetrator
> was a Semitist such as Pipes, who, like you, was trying to hide the blood on
> the hands of Communist Jews.
More ravings from the lunatic!
So much for the credibility of "Waldo's" sources!!
[...]
--
Philip Mathews
Seneca
Seneca
[ . . . ]
Steven Mock
wrote in news:82hb5v4obu1u9vvcl...@4ax.com:
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 05:46:02 GMT,
> <Xns93298B2E7E3...@206.172.150.13> Steven Mock
> <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote:
>
>><snip: rehashed Tavish crap that has been debunked about a million
>>times>
>
> How is that? Name call and personal attack AFTER deleting what I
> posted from your reply as you did above (which has been done numerous
> times) is not debunking what I post!
Try that again in English?
Steven Mock
news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
>> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense from
>> antisemitic websites.
>
> Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those references
yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an anti-Semitic website?
If so, which one?
I tell you what, Waldo. I've got a library day today. I'm going do what
you haven't done, and look up some of these references for you. What say?
Seneca
"Black Knight" <kni...@indystart.com> wrote in message
news:594c8e48.03022...@posting.google.com...
Nonsense. JUDAISM is a religion (by definition) but Jews are an ethnic
group, not necessarily religious. In Russia they classify Jews as a
nationality, I have read, and since Jews seem to regard themselves that way
too it makes sense to consider them so.
I know several Jewish atheists who identify themselves as Jews. Read the
several cites Waldo has provided on the subject and you will see that Jews
BOASTED about Russian communism being largely a Jewish movement. Here are a
few of those cites again:
____________________
___________________
There you have it.
It seems fair to characterize Bolshevism as (with apologies to Lincoln)
"government of the Jews, by the Jews and for the Jews."
Seneca
Seneca
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>
> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
>
> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense from
> >> antisemitic websites.
> >
> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
>
> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those references
> yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an anti-Semitic website?
I think everyone understands by now that in the Mock lexicon, "anti-Semitic
website" means "any website providing facts and information that Jews prefer
people to remain ignorant of."
But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are correct,
they are correct. The Nizkor site is profoundly anti-Nazi (and arguably
anti-German), isn't that so? Are you conceding that everything on the Nizkor
site is worthless as a result of their political posture?
Or is this AGAIN a case of some entirely different standard coming into play
when Jews are involved?
> If so, which one?
>
> I tell you what, Waldo. I've got a library day today. I'm going do what
> you haven't done, and look up some of these references for you. What say?
And of course when you find the references to be correct, you will promptly
admit that here in the newsgroup, right?
Yeah. Suuuuuuuuuuure you will. That will be a famous first.
Seneca
Steven Mock
news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
>> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
>> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>>
>> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
>>
>> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
>> >> from antisemitic websites.
>> >
>> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
>>
>> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
>> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
>> anti-Semitic website?
>
> I think everyone understands by now that in the Mock lexicon,
> "anti-Semitic website" means "any website providing facts and
> information that Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of."
No. It means a website whose sole purpose is to smear and libel Jews with
fabrications of this sort.
Thanks for playing.
Are you arguing that McKinney is NOT an anti-Semite, Seneca?
> But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
> correct, they are correct.
Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know this for
a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
notions.
I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's list:
"We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred.... We who
have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted of having
given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the world's seducers,
its destroyers, its incendiaries, its executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy,
preface to the book The World Significance of the Russian Revolution by
Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the Russian
Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University, and
confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't just mean search the
web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on another anti-Semitic
website. I mean find the actual published text in question and see the
quote with your own two eyes.
I'll give you a head start. Here's the Library of Congress website:
Your move.
Black Knight
> "Black Knight" <kni...@indystart.com> wrote in message
> news:594c8e48.03022...@posting.google.com...
> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:<2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54>...
> > > "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
> > > > In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
> > > > whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
> > > > subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918
> thru
> > > > 1940.
>
> > > > Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the
> prominence
> > > > of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
> > >
> > > No, we were trying to rein in the lies told by Jew haters like "Waldo".
> > >
> > >
> >
> > The whole idea that Jews are Communists is self-contradictory.
> > Communism is an atheist philosophy. Judaism is a religion that
> > worships God. The minute someone embraces Communism, he is no longer a
> > Jew.
>
> Nonsense. JUDAISM is a religion (by definition) but Jews are an ethnic
> group, not necessarily religious.
WRONG. If Jews were an ethnic group, no one could convert from Judaism
to Christianity or vice-versa. You cannot change your ethnic group.
Both types of conversions happen-my nephew's wife is a convert to
Judaism and considered a Jew as much as I am.
In Russia they classify Jews as a
> nationality, I have read,
No, they don't. The Russian Parliament passed a law in the 1990s
prohibiting discrimination against Jews and Moslems. Since moslems are
a religion only, it is obvious they consider Jews that way.
and since Jews seem to regard themselves that way
>
That's a LIE. I don't regard myself that way and neither does any Jew
I know.
too it makes sense to consider them so.
>
> I know several Jewish atheists who identify themselves as Jews.
They are wrong. Some people regard themselves as good Christians but
they lie, cheat and steal. Lots of people are mistaken about alot of
things.
Read the
> several cites Waldo has provided on the subject and you will see that Jews
> BOASTED about Russian communism being largely a Jewish movement. Here are a
> few of those cites again:
They were wrong, too. Besides, Waldo is a chronic liar and I wouldn't
put it past him to fabricate material.Anti-Semites misquote the Talmud
all the time.
They could be misquoting these items, too.
Whether someone is a Jew does not depend on what they regard
themselves to be. What matters is the truth. There is a group called
"Jews for Jesus" and all the Jews I know laugh at them, saying they
are NOT Jews anymore.
Bruno
Seneca
> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> > news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> >>
> >> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
> >>
> >> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
> >> >> from antisemitic websites.
> >> >
> >> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
> >>
> >> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
> >> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
> >> anti-Semitic website?
> >
> > I think everyone understands by now that in the Mock lexicon,
> > "anti-Semitic website" means "any website providing facts and
> > information that Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of."
>
> No. It means a website whose sole purpose is to smear and libel Jews with
> fabrications of this sort.
>
> Thanks for playing.
>
> Are you arguing that McKinney is NOT an anti-Semite, Seneca?
I have no idea who McKinney is, unless you mean Cynthia McKinney, the black
Georgia former representative who lost her Congressional seat in the last
election because she was not sufficiently subservient to Israeli interests,
and Jewish money and support flowed into the coffers of her opponent. Jewish
groups then crowed about having defeated her, once again supporting the
claim of Israeli politicians that THEY control the U.S. Congress. Is that
the McKinney you mean?
>
> > But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
> > correct, they are correct.
>
> Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know this
for
> a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
> notions.
I presume they are correct because the citations are given.
>
> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
list:
>
> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred.... We who
> have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted of having
> given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the world's seducers,
> its destroyers, its incendiaries, its executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy,
> preface to the book The World Significance of the Russian Revolution by
> Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
>
> I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the Russian
> Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University, and
> confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't just mean search the
> web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on another anti-Semitic
> website. I mean find the actual published text in question and see the
> quote with your own two eyes.
Are you claiming that no such text exists?
>
> I'll give you a head start. Here's the Library of Congress website:
>
> http://www.loc.gov/
Oxford University is in England, Steven. I don't know that the Library of
Congress catalogs every foreign book.
Are you claiming that there is no such person as Professor George
Pitts-Rivers?
Seneca
Black Knight
The best example of a group not being what they claim to be is John
Gotti, the former Cosa Nostra boss who died in prison. This guy was
proven to be behind numerous murders, yet he went around telling
people he was a good Catholic.
Bruno
Waldo
> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> > news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> >>
> >> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
> >>
> >> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
> >> >> from antisemitic websites.
> >> >
> >> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
> >>
> >> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
> >> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
> >> anti-Semitic website?
I cut and pasted them from a website, and that website is probably not run
by Semitists. Did you think that I found them on a website and then typed
them in manually?
> I think everyone understands by now that in the Mock lexicon,
> > "anti-Semitic website" means "any website providing facts and
> > information that Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of."
>
> No. It means a website whose sole purpose is to smear and libel Jews with
> fabrications of this sort.
You mean the antithesis of Nizkor, whose "sole purpose" is to promote
Semitism, and to "smear and libel" anyone who says anything that Semitists
don't like?
No. That website doesn't meet your criteria.
> Thanks for playing.
>
> Are you arguing that McKinney is NOT an anti-Semite, Seneca?
By Richard Phillips' definition "anti-Semites are people who Jews don't
like" (or words to that effect), I'm sure that McKinney qualifies.
> > But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
> > correct, they are correct.
>
> Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know this
for
> a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
> notions.
Of course McKinney COULD have just made all the quotes up, and falsely
attributed them to the supposed authors. Is that what you're asserting, Mr.
Mock?
> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
list:
>
> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred.... We who
> have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted of having
> given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the world's seducers,
> its destroyers, its incendiaries, its executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy,
> preface to the book The World Significance of the Russian Revolution by
> Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
Interesting choice. You could have selected Ginsberg, Cantor, or other
easily verifyable sources ( I even gave Philthy an amazon link to one of
Cantor's books) but no you had to choose the ONE cite that you thought
would be most difficult to verify - obviously hoping that everyone would
believe that, if ONE quote can't be verified, ALL of the quotes MUST be
forged.
Wasn't that the game plan?
The name of the author was misspelled in the article: His name is George
Pitt-Rivers. (not Pitts-Rivers)
Second, (apparently) he hailed from Worcester College, Oxford.
Also, the Oscar Levy to whom thje quote is attributed is very likely the
same Oscar Levy that is referred to here:
<quote>
____________________________
Journal of Contemporary History
__________________________________
Volume 36 Issue 02 - Publication Date: 1 April 2001
An 'Entirely Tactless Nietzschean Jew' : Oscar Levy's Critique of Western
Civilization
Dan Stone Royal Holloway, University of London, UK
A much neglected figure in the history of the reception of Nietzsche in
Britain, Oscar Levy not only headed the Nietzsche movement, but went on to
produce a challenging Nietzschean Zivilisationskritik of his own. Focusing
especially on the role of the Jews in western civilization, Levy took on the
majority of political ideologies of his day, including popular
Nietzscheanism, and called into question the ability of Christianity,
liberalism, communism or fascism to deal with the ills of contemporary
society. Levy's consistent Nietzscheanism makes him stand alone in the
history of Nietzschean thought, and illustrates the complexity of the
history of ideas of the first half of the twentieth century. Yet his
apparently bizarre views on the Jews are actually closer to Nietzsche's own
than are the views of many better known Nietzschean thinkers, especially
nazi philosophers. And his writings, incompatible with today's mainstream
beliefs as they are, nevertheless demonstrate why Nietzsche was himself no
fascist.
_____________________________________
</quote>
http://www.sagepub.co.uk/frame.html?http://www.sagepub.co.uk/journals/detail
s/issue/abstract/ab016714.html
The full text of the letter attributed to Levy can be found here. Very
interesting reading.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/levy.htm
I do not suffer from the illusion that you'll approve of the source, but do
read the letter.
Do you doubt that it was penned by the same Oscar Levy who translated
Nietzsche?
(Of course you do)
Here is a link to the material written by George Pitt-Rivers, which Levy's
letter was addressing.
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/russian_revolution.htm
(Same source)
Perhaps this material was ALSO forged by modern anti-Semites?
Recently released British MI5 archives name one George Pitt-Rivers as among
those who were "detained for propagating fascist views" in the 1930's -
40's.
<quote>
Associated right-wing extremists files include; Sir Barry Domville (KV
2/834-838), a retired admiral and founder of right-wing propaganda magazine
and associated group known collectively as 'The Link' (see organization file
KV 5/2 - this file includes an 8-page list of names associated with 'The
Link'); Enid Riddell, (KV 2/839) and Mary Agnes Standford (KV 2/832-833),
members of the Right Club and associates of Wolkoff and Tyler; George
Pitt-Rivers detained for propagating fascist views (KV 2/831).
</quote>
http://www.pro.gov.uk/releases/may2002-mi5/list.htm
After seeing what OUR Pitt-Rivers had written about Jews and Communism, and
considering the political climate at the time, it is not hard to believe
that these two were one and the same.
> I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the Russian
> Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers
That's "Pitt-Rivers".
> of Oxford University,
That's "Worcester College", Oxford.
> and
> confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't just mean search the
> web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on another anti-Semitic
> website. I mean find the actual published text in question and see the
> quote with your own two eyes.
I challenge you to find the ORIGINAL copy of the Ten Commandments, And I
DON'T mean some copy of a copy of a copy, but the REAL thing, written in
stone by the finger of the Jewish god, and handed to Moses on Sinai.
Failing this, we'll have to assume that they're a forgery.
> I'll give you a head start. Here's the Library of Congress website:
>
> http://www.loc.gov/
Would you care for a map of the Middle East?
I don't imagine that the above information would convince you, Mr. Mock. But
then again, you are interested not in truth, but in your agenda.
Steven Mock
news:Ltw5a.63604$zF6.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
No. Its interesting that you don't know who I mean. Seeing as you
dismissed my reference to Waldo's source as "an anti-Semitic website", I
assumed you were familiar with the source in question and therefore in a
position to make a judgement.
If you weren't, then how do you know he isn't?
>> > But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
>> > correct, they are correct.
>>
>> Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know
>> this for
>> a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
>> notions.
>
> I presume they are correct because the citations are given.
Its because of to gullible people like you that Holocaust denial still has
any life left in it at all.
>> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
>> list:
>>
>> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred....
>> We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted
>> of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the
>> world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its
>> executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World
>> Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George
>> Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
>>
>> I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the
>> Russian Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford
>> University, and confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't
>> just mean search the web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on
>> another anti-Semitic website. I mean find the actual published text
>> in question and see the quote with your own two eyes.
>
> Are you claiming that no such text exists?
Why don't you check for yourself?
>> I'll give you a head start. Here's the Library of Congress website:
>>
>> http://www.loc.gov/
>
> Oxford University is in England, Steven. I don't know that the Library
> of Congress catalogs every foreign book.
Its pretty comprehensive. But there is, of course, a possibility that this
particular book might have been overlooked.
So if you want to be sure, Oxford University Library's catalogue is here:
The University of London Library catalogue is here:
> Are you claiming that there is no such person as Professor George
> Pitts-Rivers?
Why are you asking me, Seneca? Why not check for yourself. Oxford
University's website is here:
And its searchable.
Let me give you free clue, Seneca. I've already done all of the above.
You see, I do my research *before* I mouth off.
Steven Mock
news:3e5702b5$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
>> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
>> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>
>> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
>> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
>> >> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>> >>
>> >> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
>> >>
>> >> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
>> >> >> from antisemitic websites.
>> >> >
>> >> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
>> >>
>> >> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
>> >> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
>> >> anti-Semitic website?
>
> I cut and pasted them from a website, and that website is probably not
> run by Semitists. Did you think that I found them on a website and
> then typed them in manually?
No. But I do know that you have no idea whether the quotes are accurate,
honest, or even whether they exist.
Only that they serve your purposes.
So why don't you tell us which website?
>> > But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
>> > correct, they are correct.
>>
>> Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know
>> this for
>> a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
>> notions.
>
> Of course McKinney COULD have just made all the quotes up, and falsely
> attributed them to the supposed authors. Is that what you're
> asserting, Mr. Mock?
In some cases, yes. In other cases, he merely quoted selectively in order
to make the quote in question mean something other than the author
intended.
>> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
>> list:
>>
>> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred....
>> We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted
>> of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the
>> world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its
>> executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World
>> Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George
>> Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
>
> Interesting choice. You could have selected Ginsberg, Cantor, or other
> easily verifyable sources ( I even gave Philthy an amazon link to one
> of Cantor's books) but no you had to choose the ONE cite that you
> thought would be most difficult to verify - obviously hoping that
> everyone would believe that, if ONE quote can't be verified, ALL of
> the quotes MUST be forged.
>
> Wasn't that the game plan?
No. I plan to get to all of the other ones tomorrow.
Steven Mock
first of his bogus quotations has been thoroughly exposed...
"Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
news:3e5702b5$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
>> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
> list:
>>
>> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred....
>> We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted
>> of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the
>> world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its
>> executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World
>> Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George
>> Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
>
> Interesting choice. You could have selected Ginsberg, Cantor, or other
> easily verifyable sources ( I even gave Philthy an amazon link to one
> of Cantor's books) but no you had to choose the ONE cite that you
> thought would be most difficult to verify - obviously hoping that
> everyone would believe that, if ONE quote can't be verified, ALL of
> the quotes MUST be forged.
>
> Wasn't that the game plan?
>
> The name of the author was misspelled in the article: His name is
> George Pitt-Rivers. (not Pitts-Rivers)
>
> Second, (apparently) he hailed from Worcester College, Oxford.
Right. So now we see why this quote was the most difficult to verify -
because it was completely misattributed. My fault of course.
I suppose either you, or McKinney, didn't want us to know that we *weren't*
in fact dealing with a respected history professor but rather another
ideologically driven extremist, writing for the sole purpose of smearing
Jews.
By all means. I would like *everyone* to click these links and look at the
sort of sources Waldo and Seneca think trump the documented facts we've
posted:
> The full text of the letter attributed to Levy can be found here. Very
> interesting reading.
>
> http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/levy.htm
>
> I do not suffer from the illusion that you'll approve of the source,
> but do read the letter.
>
> Do you doubt that it was penned by the same Oscar Levy who translated
> Nietzsche?
>
> (Of course you do)
>
> Here is a link to the material written by George Pitt-Rivers, which
> Levy's letter was addressing.
>
> http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/russian_revolution.htm
>
> (Same source)
>
> Perhaps this material was ALSO forged by modern anti-Semites?
Forged? Not exactly. But its amazing that you think the mere fact that
someone else has repeated your lies makes them true. There is nothing even
remotely accurate or verifiable in either of those two rants.
>> I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the
>> Russian Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers
>
> That's "Pitt-Rivers".
>
>> of Oxford University,
>
> That's "Worcester College", Oxford.
Which is a college at Oxford University. Which, by the way, shows no
evidence of having ever heard of George Pitt-Rivers.
>> and
>> confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't just mean search
>> the web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on another
>> anti-Semitic website. I mean find the actual published text in
>> question and see the quote with your own two eyes.
>
> I challenge you to find the ORIGINAL copy of the Ten Commandments, And
> I DON'T mean some copy of a copy of a copy, but the REAL thing,
> written in stone by the finger of the Jewish god, and handed to Moses
> on Sinai.
I'm sorry, the ORIGINAL Ten Commandments (if they existed at all) were
written some 3000 years ago. Here we are talking about a book written
within the past century. If such a book existed, there would be evidence
of it - in my university library, in the libraries of the universities of
London or Oxford, in the Library of Congress.
But there is no such book is there? According to the source you just
cited, it was nothing more than a political pamphlet. Yet you, or
McKinney, cited it in such a way as to make it appear to be a legitimate
academic text, worthy of citation as evidence.
Why's that, Waldo? Because you're a liar and a con artist. Because you
HAVE TO lie in order to make your position appear plausible. You have to
ignore documented facts, and elevate the bald assertions of your fellow
hatemongers to gospel truth - dressing them up as cited evidence in order
to appeal to gullible and ignorant types like Seneca.
Its your lifeblood. You would cease to exist if you didn't have your
ideology, and your ideology would collapse if you didn't lie.
Goodnight, Waldo.
Steven Mock
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> news:3e5702b5$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>
>>> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from
>>> Waldo's list:
>>>
>>> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred....
>>> We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted
>>> of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the
>>> world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its
>>> executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World
>>> Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George
>>> Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
>>
>> Interesting choice. You could have selected Ginsberg, Cantor, or
>> other easily verifyable sources ( I even gave Philthy an amazon link
>> to one of Cantor's books) but no you had to choose the ONE cite that
>> you thought would be most difficult to verify - obviously hoping that
>> everyone would believe that, if ONE quote can't be verified, ALL of
>> the quotes MUST be forged.
>>
>> Wasn't that the game plan?
>
> No. I plan to get to all of the other ones tomorrow.
And by the way, Waldo, why would you expect this to be the one that is most
difficult to verify? The ones that are most difficult to verify are the
ones that come from old periodicals that don't exist anymore. If this text
had, indeed, been from a reputable book, it should have been one of the
*easiest* to verify.
I guess this means you knew that it was not, and that this quote does not
prove that communism was a Jewish movement any more than do your bald
assertions to the same effect.
On the contrary, the reason why I chose this one first was because it was
the easiest to verify. Indeed, it was the only one I was able to verify
without leaving the comfort of my desk-chair. I was quickly able to verify
that the book in question did not exist, and a simple web-search revealed
that the only mention of the author (both the correct and incorrect
spelling) occured when some anti-Semitic website was regurgitating this
very quote.
As I said, I'll get to the others tomorrow. I'm looking forward to it.
Are you?
Steven Mocl
Waldo
The juicy meat of this post is at the end!
Don't miss it!
"Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
news:Xns932AE6DF43...@206.172.150.13...
Pardon me, Mr. Mock, but WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MATTER whether or not Ian
McKinney is a so-called anti-Semite? The quotes I provided were attributed
to OTHERS by McKinney, and what matters is whether or not these quotes are
accurate.
If Ian McKinney told you that your head was on fire, would you burn to death
rather than believe him, simply because you think he's an "anti-Semite"?
BTW, did you enjoy your trip to the library today?
Did you find the books by Cantor and Ginsberg that McKinney cited?
I notice that you aren't claiming the quotes were INACCURATE. Might we
assume that you DID find the quotes, and that they were indeed accurate?
(Of course they ARE accurate)
I posted the complete text of Pitt-Rivers (not Pitts-Rivers) book(let)
elsewhere in this thread. But as the source is not Nizkor, THHP, B'nai
Brith, ADL or the Wiesenthal Center, you'll likely dismiss it as a forgery.
> >> I'll give you a head start. Here's the Library of Congress website:
> >>
> >> http://www.loc.gov/
Hell, I'll bet they don't even have the complete set of The Hardy Boys and
Nancy Drew mysteries!
> > Oxford University is in England, Steven. I don't know that the Library
> > of Congress catalogs every foreign book.
>
> Its pretty comprehensive. But there is, of course, a possibility that
this
> particular book might have been overlooked.
It was actually more akin to a booklet or pamphlet - published by Basil
Blackwell, 1920.
> So if you want to be sure, Oxford University Library's catalogue is here:
>
> http://library.ox.ac.uk/
>
> The University of London Library catalogue is here:
>
> http://www.ull.ac.uk/
>
> > Are you claiming that there is no such person as Professor George
> > Pitts-Rivers?
>
> Why are you asking me, Seneca? Why not check for yourself. Oxford
> University's website is here:
>
> http://www.ox.ac.uk/
>
> And its searchable.
>
> Let me give you free clue, Seneca. I've already done all of the above.
>
> You see, I do my research *before* I mouth off.
Gee, Steve. I am ever so grateful!
You see, I searched the Oxford library, and FOUND THE BOOK. I can't give you
a direct link, as the site is not navigated by the use of browser buttons -
but here is the info.
Oxford lists the following information on the book:
__________________________
Title: "The world significance of the Russian revolution / by George
Pitt-Rivers ; with a preface by Oscar Levy."
Author: "Pitt-Rivers, George Henry Lane Fox, 1890-"
Publisher: "Oxford : B. Blackwell, 1920."
Description: "xiii, 45 p. ; 18 cm."
Subjects: "Communism and Zionism. Soviet Union--History--Revolution,
1917-1921."
Call Number: Bodleian BOD Bookstack 24416 e.166/8
Status: In place
Call Number: Taylor Slav. TAS Rare
Status: Available
___________________________
How to find this book, and verify that I am not lying:
1) Go to:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/elec-res.html
2) Click on the "OLIS" link. (Access to OLIS, Oxford Libraries' Union
Catalogue.)
3) Click on "Connect to GeoWeb"
4) Click on "Connect to OLIS"
5) Click on "Keyword Searching"
6) In the box on the left, you will enter, in quotation marks, EXACTLY as
follows "George Pitt-Rivers", in the box on the right, you will select: au
All Authors. You should get 18 hits. Scroll down to the title "The clash of
culture and the contact of races"
7) Click on the blue "Full record" button to the left.
8) When the new screen appears, you will see the name "Pitt-Rivers, George
Henry Lane Fox, 1890-" in blue. click on it.
9) You will see as the second entry: Title: "The world significance of the
Russian revolution / Author: Pitt-Rivers, George Henry Lane Fox, 1890- Date:
1920". Click on the "Full Record" button to the left.
There you have it.
What was it that you said earlier, Steve?
Oh yes, you said: "You see, I do my research *before* I mouth off", didn't
you?
Well, I've gone and done it Steve. I've found the book you wanted us to
believe was an anti-Semitic fabrication - and the cite even notes that there
is a preface by Oscar Levy, of all things!
Let us recall ANOTHER thing that you said, Mr. Mock:
<quote>
I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the
Russian Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford
University, and confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't
just mean search the web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on
another anti-Semitic website. I mean find the actual published text
in question and see the quote with your own two eyes.
</quote>
Ok, Steve. Now we know that the George Pitt-Rivers existed. We know that his
book, "The world significance of the Russian revolution" exists. We also
know that Oscar Levy wrote the preface, and we have a pretty good idea of
who both Pitt-Rivers and Levy were.
One question remains: Is the text quoted by McKinney accurate?
As I have done what you have shown that you were incapable of doing, I
propose that you buy the tickets on the Concord, and I'll buy the good
Scotch (hopefully you're a tee-totaler), and we'll travel to England
together to examine the text.
Deal?
Frankly, my Jewish friend, you can save your precious lucre. You now know
damn well that the quote was accurate, and if THAT obscure, difficult to
trace quote was accurate, we can comfortably assume that ALL OF THE OTHER
quotes were accurate, can't we?
You further know that, despite your twisting, squirming, squealing and
dodging, the Russian Revolution, Bolshevism, and Soviet Communism were
"Jewish things", and the blood resulting from the tyranny, torture,
starvation, incarceration, gulags, and outright executions is LARGELY on
JEWISH HANDS.
For your convenience, here again is a link to Oscar Levy's letter to
Pitt-Rivers:
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/levy.htm
The full text of Pitt-Rivers book(let) can be found here:
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/russian_revolution.htm
Be careful not to injure your knee while kicking yourself in the ass, Steve.
Brad Scott
Steven Mock <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote:
>> How is that? Name call and personal attack AFTER deleting what I
>> posted from your reply as you did above (which has been done numerous
>> times) is not debunking what I post!
:
>Try that again in English?
I did speak English and I was cogent but you are too god damned stupid to
understand.
Waldo
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> news:3e5702b5$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>
> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> > news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
> >> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> >> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> >>
> >> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> >> > news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
> >> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> >> >> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> >> >>
> >> >> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
> >> >>
> >> >> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
> >> >> >> from antisemitic websites.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
> >> >>
> >> >> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
> >> >> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
> >> >> anti-Semitic website?
> >
> > I cut and pasted them from a website, and that website is probably not
> > run by Semitists. Did you think that I found them on a website and
> > then typed them in manually?
>
> No. But I do know that you have no idea whether the quotes are accurate,
> honest, or even whether they exist.
Oh, they exist all right, Steve, as I just proved in another post in this
thread (thanks for the tip!)
> Only that they serve your purposes.
>
> So why don't you tell us which website?
What does it matter? What matters is that the book exists, the people
exist(ed), and the quotes are accurate.
> >> > But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
> >> > correct, they are correct.
> >>
> >> Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know
> >> this for
> >> a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
> >> notions.
> >
> > Of course McKinney COULD have just made all the quotes up, and falsely
> > attributed them to the supposed authors. Is that what you're
> > asserting, Mr. Mock?
>
> In some cases, yes.
PROVE that McKinney made the quotes up, Steve. (You won't, you can't)
> In other cases, he merely quoted selectively in order
> to make the quote in question mean something other than the author
> intended.
Please feel free to quote them "in context" and show that they meant exactly
the opposite of what they said then, won't you?
> >> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
> >> list:
> >>
> >> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred....
> >> We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted
> >> of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the
> >> world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its
> >> executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World
> >> Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George
> >> Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
> >
> > Interesting choice. You could have selected Ginsberg, Cantor, or other
> > easily verifyable sources ( I even gave Philthy an amazon link to one
> > of Cantor's books) but no you had to choose the ONE cite that you
> > thought would be most difficult to verify - obviously hoping that
> > everyone would believe that, if ONE quote can't be verified, ALL of
> > the quotes MUST be forged.
> >
> > Wasn't that the game plan?
>
> No. I plan to get to all of the other ones tomorrow.
Well, we'll look forward to that!
Waldo
"Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
news:Xns932AD395CE1...@207.35.177.134...
It IS a reputable book, and is listed in the library at Oxford, as I have
shown in this thread, and no, it isn't the easiest to verify: The EASIEST to
verify were the contemporary quotes from Cantor and Ginsburg, which were
recently published and are readily verifiable - even at Amazon.com.
Actually, I suspect that you verified the quotes of Ginsburg and Cantor at
the library today, but 'mums the word', right Steve?
> I guess this means you knew that it was not, and that this quote does not
> prove that communism was a Jewish movement any more than do your bald
> assertions to the same effect.
Of course Bolshevist Communism was a Jewish movement. You know this as well
as I - but for SOME reason, the thought of EVERYONE knowing this make you
(as a Jew) uneasy, which is why you struggle in vain to deny it.
Right Steve?
> On the contrary, the reason why I chose this one first was because it was
> the easiest to verify.
You failed. I succeeded. The book is real, the people are (were) real, and
the quote is, in ALL likelihood, accurate. If you want further proof, you'll
have to buy the Concord tickets (I detest long flights).
> Indeed, it was the only one I was able to verify
> without leaving the comfort of my desk-chair.
You mean you were *UNABLE* to verify. Fortunately, I do not suffer from your
Semitist handicap.
> I was quickly able to verify
> that the book in question did not exist,
No, you weren't. It DOES exist, as I have shown in this thread. For your
convenience, here are instructions to verify the existence of this book
(which you vehemently claim does NOT exist):
______________________________
__________________________
Status: In place
Status: Available
___________________________
1) Go to:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/elec-res.html
_____________________________
> and a simple web-search revealed
> that the only mention of the author (both the correct and incorrect
> spelling) occured when some anti-Semitic website was regurgitating this
> very quote.
Well, I'm sure that it doesn't appear on Nizkor's site, and frankly, I can
understand why.
But the book DOES exist nonetheless, and the preface was INDEED written by
Oscar Levy.
(We briefly pause while Steven Mock grabs a "Wet-One", and gingerly wipes
the egg from his face)
> As I said, I'll get to the others tomorrow. I'm looking forward to it.
> Are you?
If you insist on humiliating yourself, why not?
Shalom, baby! o;-)>
Waldo
No. Not your fault, Steve. But there is little doubt that you would take
advantage of a typo in your efforts to promote / defend your Semitist
agenda.
> I suppose either you, or McKinney, didn't want us to know that we
*weren't*
> in fact dealing with a respected history professor but rather another
> ideologically driven extremist, writing for the sole purpose of smearing
> Jews.
Au contraire: We were in fact dealing with a respected professor who wrote a
respectable piece that is in fact in the possession of Oxford University,
and we ALSO know that the preface to this work was indeed written by one
Oscar Levy, as was asserted by Mr. McKinney, and as I have proven elsewhere
in this thread.
> By all means. I would like *everyone* to click these links and look at
the
> sort of sources Waldo and Seneca think trump the documented facts we've
> posted:
As I might tell Philthy: Phuck the sources, Steve. Read the DOCUMENTS,
documents that I have VERIFIED as being in existence, and in the possession
of the OXFORD University Library (MUCH to your chagrin, I might add)
Go ahead, squirm, squeal, lie, dodge! It won't change the fact that my proof
of what you called un-provable is the equivalent of a Louisville Slugger
up-side the head of your Semitist cause.
Get yourself a Kleenex, Steve.
> > The full text of the letter attributed to Levy can be found here. Very
> > interesting reading.
> >
> > http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/levy.htm
> >
> > I do not suffer from the illusion that you'll approve of the source,
> > but do read the letter.
> >
> > Do you doubt that it was penned by the same Oscar Levy who translated
> > Nietzsche?
> >
> > (Of course you do)
> >
> > Here is a link to the material written by George Pitt-Rivers, which
> > Levy's letter was addressing.
> >
> > http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/hoax/russian_revolution.htm
> >
> > (Same source)
> >
> > Perhaps this material was ALSO forged by modern anti-Semites?
>
> Forged? Not exactly.
If not forged, then what, "exactly"?
> But its amazing that you think the mere fact that
> someone else has repeated your lies makes them true. There is nothing
even
> remotely accurate or verifiable in either of those two rants.
You really are priceless, Steve. Do you realize how much money you save me
in pay-per-view and rental comedies alone?
> >> I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the
> >> Russian Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers
> >
> > That's "Pitt-Rivers".
> >
> >> of Oxford University,
> >
> > That's "Worcester College", Oxford.
>
> Which is a college at Oxford University. Which, by the way, shows no
> evidence of having ever heard of George Pitt-Rivers.
Woops! WRONG!
You're Phucked.
> >> and
> >> confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't just mean search
> >> the web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on another
> >> anti-Semitic website. I mean find the actual published text in
> >> question and see the quote with your own two eyes.
> >
> > I challenge you to find the ORIGINAL copy of the Ten Commandments, And
> > I DON'T mean some copy of a copy of a copy, but the REAL thing,
> > written in stone by the finger of the Jewish god, and handed to Moses
> > on Sinai.
>
> I'm sorry, the ORIGINAL Ten Commandments (if they existed at all) were
> written some 3000 years ago.
Excuses excuses.
> Here we are talking about a book written
> within the past century. If such a book existed, there would be evidence
> of it - in my university library, in the libraries of the universities of
> London or Oxford, in the Library of Congress.
And there is, and I proved it.
> But there is no such book is there?
Yes. There is, as I proved.
> According to the source you just
> cited, it was nothing more than a political pamphlet.
"Political pamphlet"? Are you lying, Steve?
45 pages. Catalogued at Oxford University. See my other posts in this
thread.
> Yet you, or
> McKinney, cited it in such a way as to make it appear to be a legitimate
> academic text, worthy of citation as evidence.
It is.
> Why's that, Waldo? Because you're a liar and a con artist. Because you
> HAVE TO lie in order to make your position appear plausible.
By now you realize what a fool you've made of yourself.
Povrecito Esteban!
> You have to
> ignore documented facts, and elevate the bald assertions of your fellow
> hatemongers to gospel truth -
Please, I rarely quote Nizkor or the ADL!
> dressing them up as cited evidence in order
> to appeal to gullible and ignorant types like Seneca.
LOL!!! Seneca would have you eating your own "brains" with a spoon!
> Its your lifeblood. You would cease to exist if you didn't have your
> ideology, and your ideology would collapse if you didn't lie.
>
> Goodnight, Waldo.
Goodnight, Stevie.
I'd pay a pretty penny to see your face when you discover all of the
non-Kosher, undercooked OMELETS that you've heaped onto it!
Do keep in touch, won't you?
BWWWWWWAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAAAA!!!!!
The Revd Terence Fformby-Smythe
wrote:
>"Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in message news:<n3s5a.44665$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...
>> "Black Knight" <kni...@indystart.com> wrote in message
>> news:594c8e48.03022...@posting.google.com...
>> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>> news:<2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54>...
>> > > "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
>> > > news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
>> > > > In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
>> > > > whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
>> > > > subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918
>> thru
>> > > > 1940.
>>
>> > > > Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the
>> prominence
>> > > > of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
>> > >
>> > > No, we were trying to rein in the lies told by Jew haters like "Waldo".
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > The whole idea that Jews are Communists is self-contradictory.
>> > Communism is an atheist philosophy. Judaism is a religion that
>> > worships God. The minute someone embraces Communism, he is no longer a
>> > Jew.
>>
>> Nonsense. JUDAISM is a religion (by definition) but Jews are an ethnic
>> group, not necessarily religious.
>
>WRONG. If Jews were an ethnic group, no one could convert from Judaism
>to Christianity or vice-versa. You cannot change your ethnic group.
>Both types of conversions happen-my nephew's wife is a convert to
>Judaism and considered a Jew as much as I am.
B'llshit, B'runo. Jewdism is a belief (like many other -isms:
Buddhism, Catholicism, Marxism etc). You can convert into or out of a
belief at a moment's notice. Jews, on the other hand, are a race.
There is no way in hell (unless you have the resources of a Michael
Jackson) that you can convert from one race to another. As it
happens, jewdism is the religion of choice for a minority of jews:
this does not detract from the difference between jews and jewdism.
> In Russia they classify Jews as a
>> nationality, I have read,
>
>
>No, they don't. The Russian Parliament passed a law in the 1990s
>prohibiting discrimination against Jews and Moslems. Since moslems are
>a religion only, it is obvious they consider Jews that way.
Doesn't follow, B'runo. Logic failure.
--
"There's no business like Shoah business."
- Abba Eban (1915-2002), 'Israeli' statesman
Steven Mock
Significance of the Russian Revolution" exists in the Oxford library. Rest
assured, I did look long and hard for it at numerous places before
asserting otherwise, but I was looking under the misspelled author name
orginally provided and the Oxford Libary search system apparently wasn't
equipped to give me alternatives.
But all of your crowing aside, the fact remains that you and your source
misrepresented a piece of 1920's political propaganda as a scholarly work.
Your claim that the bias or ideology of a source has no effect on the
quality of the information cited has merit to a point. The point is that
there must be information being cited. Yes, Nizkor is approaching the
discussion of Holocaust denial from a certain point of view, but the
information contained on Nizkor includes eyewitness testimonies, original
documents, and the works of historians who base their research on the
above.
The mere fact that someone has repeated, in writing, the same empty libels
you are now promulgating does not count as evidence in favour of your case,
and your citing of a quotation from "The World Significance of The Russian
Revolution" - a text whose only purpose is to assert the same libel you are
now trying to prove - is no more credible than if you had quoted "the
International Jew" or the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Is there any
verifiable data in the text that supports your case, or is it just someone
else saying what you would like to believe?
Now, on to the next candidates. I'm afraid you're not going to be able to
pull a rabbit out of your hat for these ones, since in these cases, I *was*
able to track down the actual text and read what it really said.
"Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
news:3e572a3d$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns932A7D0B27B...@207.35.177.134...
>> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
>> news:3e5702b5$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>>
>> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
>> >> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
>> >> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>> >>
>> >> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
>
There are several different dishonest tactics used by McKinney in this
collection of quotes. The most obvious is outright fabrication - though
being generous, in most of these cases, I would guess that that the
fabrication was the result of sloppiness rather than deceit - one neo-Nazi
loosely paraphrased something he'd read, citing a source that he *believed*
supported his assertion, and as the line passed through a few generations
of posting and reposting, another neo-Nazi saw the attribution and decided
to stick quotation marks around the line in question. Another tactic is
selective quotation, where he picks out the few lines that can be made to
appear to support his case, ignoring the mass of data surrounding those few
lines that present a very different overall picture. Let's start with the
Cantor stuff, since you seem pretty eager to get to it, and it provides a
rather good example of this latter dynamic.
In fact, I shouldn't even be bothering with the Norman Cantor/Benjamin
Ginsburg stuff, seeing as there's really nothing in it that I would
seriously contest, and therefore the only point that should really be made
about it is that it doesn't even begin to address the question at hand.
You see Waldo, as I keep trying to explain, I do not contest the claim that
there were Jews who participated, even prominently, in the Bolshevik
movement. And all Cantor's work does is highlight those individuals and
offer entirely plauisble explanations of their motivations. What I contest
is the claim that "Communism was largely a Jewish movement", which this
doesn't even begin to prove.
Its a fancy propaganda tactic on your part. Dig through books on Jewish
history for the parts that refer to the Communist revolution, and
*obviously* these books are going to deal with the role of Jews in these
events. Highlight these passages in isolation, and you give the impression
that Jews were *uniquely* responsible for these events, when, in fact, the
very sources you're quoting say the exact opposite in the passages you
choose not to quote.
And that, ultimately, is the only reason I'm bothering with these
irrelevant passages at all - to demonstrate your selective and dishonest
use of sources.
You quote Cantor as follows:
"'During the heyday of the Cold War, American Jewish publicists spent a lot
of time denying that-as 1930s anti-Semites claimed-Jews played a
disproportionately important role in Soviet and world Communism. The truth
is until the early 1950s. Jews did play such a role, and there is nothing
to be ashamed of. In time, Jews will learn to take pride in the record of
the Jewish Communists in the Soviet Union and elsewhere. It was a species
of striking back." -- The Jewish Experience, "Stalin's Jews", pp. 364,
Norman F. Cantor, Castle Books, 1996.
As I said, I do not deny that certain Jews did play a prominent role in the
early Soviet regime, and Cantor is entitled to the view that stricking back
against the anti-Semitic czarist regime was part of their motivation. But
it interesting how Waldo only quotes the fragment of this introductory
blurb that suits him. He ignores the section directly above: "As the
Tsarist government in the late-ninteenth century found itself increasingly
in confrontation with the Empire's Jewish population, there was a strong
leftist and revolutionary drift among the younger Jewish generations. Most
became members of the Bund, a democratic, peaceful, labour union
organization. But some became bomb-throwing anarchists and revolutionary
Communists."
Later in the post, you quote a bit more from Cantor's little introductory
blurb:
"The founders of the Soviet secret police (later KGB), headquartered in
Lubyanka prison in Moscow, were mostly Jews. Jews also took leadership
roles, down into the early 1950s, in the Communist parties of Germany,
Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and Rumania. In the struggle for
succession to Lenin in the 1920s, leading to the defeat and exile of the
Jewish Trotsky Bronstein), most of the high-level Soviet Jews made the
mistake of supporting Stalin, an Asiatic anti-Semite who in the purge
trials in the mid-1930s eventually eliminated these Jewish "Old
Bolsheviks." But even to some degree after the Great Purge, Jews were still
prevalent in powerful Soviet government positions and many of Stalin's
cohorts in the 1940s had Jewish wives. Here is a cool appraisal of Stalin's
Jews, published in 1994 by the Russian writer Arkady Vaksberg.
Interesting that you mention the text by Arkady Vaksberg that Cantor is
introducting, but you're not the least bit interested in quoting from the
article itself. Instead, you proceed to quote, at length, an entirely
different passage - from some American anti-Semite who was whining to
congress about how there was too much yiddish for his tastes on the streets
of Russia after the revolution (damn that emancipation, eh), and reading
all sorts of spurrious assumptions into the fact. I think the reason you
don't go on with Arkady Vaksberg's article is because he makes it very
clear that the prominance of ethnic minorities in the Soviet system -
particularly in its more unsavoury elements - was not unique to the Jews,
nor was it a reflection of their control over the movement.
"The Soviet political police had "aliens" in its makeup from the start,
particularly Latvians, Poles, and Jews. It is important to note that
"aliens" (including Armenians and Georgians) formed a very large percentage
of all Soviet departments and ministries - for obvious reasons. Oppressed,
or at least discriminated against, second- and even third-class citizens in
the old Russia, they felt a new energy in the new regime and with fanatical
dedication launched themselves on revolutionary careers. But their
presence was most visible (again for obvious reasons) in the activities of
the vicious Cheka-GPU, noticed by both the public at large and the leaders
who paid attention to the national question... The revolution brought to
the top not the intellectual Jews, who had suffered discrimination under
the tsars and had had to struggle to get an education and a university
degree, to be able to master a profession and practice it wherever they
wanted. The majority of Jewish intellectuals emigrated or became "fellow
travelers", the "specials", scornfully tolerated by the Soviet regime. And
a huge number of the ended up in the GULAG, or exile, or mass graves. But
the illiterate petty craftsmen, who had ambitious dreams of careers and
power over their kind - power of any sort - rushed to the captials, and
because of their flawless social background they received Party posts. The
rest depended on their zeal and capacity for intruige to make connections
and to advance themselves.
"The percentage of Jews in key posts in the Lubyanka did not differ
markedly from the percentage in other departments, but the other
departments interested only those people dealing with them, while the
Lubyanka interested everyone. And therefore if someone named Rabinovich
was in charge of a mass executiuon, he was perceived not simply as a Cheka
boss but as a Jews, while if someone named Abramovich was in charge of a
mass epidemic countermeasure, he was perceived not as a Jew but as a good
doctor. This was natural and not surprising.
"It was the same reasoning that led to portreying the vicious murder of the
tsar's family in Ekaterinburg in 1918 as the work of Jews, even though the
vast majority of the executioners were Russian. Inflamed anti-Semites
proclaimed one of the main organizers - chairman of the executive committe
of the Urals Soviet, twenty-seven year old Alexander Beloborodov - to be
the Jew Weisbrot, even though Oleg Platonov, a leading contemporary exposer
of "Jewish crimes", has been forced to admit that "research in the archives
does not support this version". In their desire to find Jewish roots for
Beloborodov, some people gave his father's name as Grigori (which is common
in Jewish families) when it was actually Georgy."(pp. 365-366)
So as we see, the article itself agrees with the perspective Waldo quoted
from Trotsky earlier - that those Jews (and other minorities) who were
involved in the Bolshevik movement were used by the Soviet state in
positions that would direct popular resentment away from the state and
towards them as a group.
Is that what you call a "Jewish movement", Waldo?
Steven Mock
Jewish Encyclopedia:
"Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the first Soviet
commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish position in the
Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White Armies which
opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as common
enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).
It appears again further down:
The Jewish Encyclopedia acknowledges the preponderance of Jews among the
Soviet power structure and that large numbers of Russians associated Jews
with Bolsheviks: "Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the
first Soviet commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish
position in the Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White
Armies which opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as
common enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).
Volume I page 336 of the Universal Jewish encylopedia contains no such
language. The page in question contains entries for "Anigonus", "Antigonus
of Socho", "Anti-Lebanon" and, ironically enough, the "Anti-Defamation
Leauge", and has nothing whatsoever to do with communism or the Soviet
Union.
One can find the entry on "communism" in the Universal Jewish Encyclopieda
(ed. Isaac Landman, Universal Jewish Encyclopedia Inc., New York. 1941), in
Volume III, pp.315-320. It includes the following:
"Since the Bolshevik Revolution, some opponents of Communism have repeaed
incessantly that, both as a political theory and as a revolutionary
movement, Communism is one of the manifestations of alleged Jewish
ambitions to destroy Christian civilization and to establish Jewish rule
the world over. This accusation, indeed, goes back to the middle of the
19th cent., to the beginnings of teh modern radical movement, when the
origin of Karl Marx - some of a baptized Jews, and the most prominent
leader of socialisrt thought and organization - was utilized by some
opponents to smear the movement with the taint of Jewishness...
"The alleged predominantly Jewish leadership and composition of the Russian
Communist Party has been a stock argument both against the Jews and against
the Communists outside of Russia as well. A glance at the statistics of
party membership taken at various times between 1918 and 1938 suffices to
disprove that underlying legend as far as membership is concerned. In 1918
the Russian Communist Party had 124,000 members. Of these, 75 per cent
were Russian Slavs, 10.8 per cent Letts (Latvians), 6.3 per cent Poles, 3.7
per cent Esthonians, 2.6 per cent Jews. In 1922, 5.2 per cent of the
membership was Jewish (19,526 members); in 1924 there were 5 per cent of
Jews out of an approximate total of 900,000; in 1929 the percentage dropped
to 3.5 (49,627 Jewish members). In 1938, according to the figures given by
the Paris emigre daily Posledniva Novosti, edited by Professor Paul
Milyukov, leader of the Constitutional Democrats, Jewish membership in the
Russian Communist Party constitued not more than 4.34 per cent.
"Now, the ratio of Jews to the total population of Russia was only 1.8 per
cent. The ratio of 4.34 per cent of Jewish membership in the Communist
Party accordingly appears rather forbidding; and indeed the enemies of both
the Jews and Communism, especially outside of Russia, have taken quick
advantage of these rations to smear the communists with the Jewish brush
and vice versa. The mere comparison of these figures, however, distorts
the true picture. While the total Jewish population is 1.8 per cent, it
must be noted that the Jews lived almost exclusively in the cities and
towns; in Russia's urban population the Jews constituted 11 per cent. Two
additional factors are taken into consideration. On the one hand, the
rural population took practically no part in political activities, and on
the other, there was virtually no illieracy among the Russian jews. Hence
it can be understood that when the Bolsheviks came to power and required in
all branches of the administration men and women who at least could read
and write, the percentage of Jewish Communist membership would be greater
than that of the non-Jewish Communist membership, a percentage, however,
which is not high under the circumstances.
"Much is made of the fact that during the first years of the Soviet regime
Jews were among the outstanding leaders of the Russian Communist party.
Because Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Radek, Litinov and others were Jews, it
was inferred that the Jews controlled the party and the government... In
reality, Jewish intellectuals were conspicuously identified with the
Social-Democratic Mensheviks (Abrahamovich, Axelrod, Dan, Liber, Martov)
who were bitterly opposed to the Bolshevik regime, also with the Social-
Revolutionaries (Gershuni, Gotz) who were the stringest party backing the
constitutional Kerensky regime; and with the moderate bourgeois-liberal
Constitutional Democrats, headed by professor Milyukov, who was assisted by
such extremely able leaders of Jewish origin as Vinaver, Herzenstein and
othe brotehrs Hessen and others...
"As time went on and a new generation of potential leaders was growing up
in Russia under entirely different circumstances, the importance of the
pre-War leaders of Jewish descent was bound to decrease. In the struggle
for power within the party between the "Opposition" headed by Trotsky,
Zinoviev and Kamenev on the one hand and the Stalin-Bukharin-Rykov majority
faction on the other, the latter used agaisnt the former arguments of a
veiled anti-Semitic nature... After the complete destruction of all
opposition within the party, sealed by the extermination of the entire
Bolshevik "Old Guard" during the purges of 1936 to 1938, most of the old
time leaders and executives of Jewish origin disappeared. The only
prominent Jews of the older generation who remained in the Party are Emil
Yaroslavsky, the leader of the "Godless" movement, and Maxim Litvinov, who
was "liquidated" as a diplomat shortly before the Moscow-Berlin pact of
August, 1939. Lazar Kaganovich, the only outstanding figure of Jewish
descent in the Communist leadership (1940), belongs to the younger
generation that grew up after the Revolution. Since the liquidation of all
oppositionists, Kaganovich has been the only Jewish member of the Political
Bureau, the supreme organ of the party and the virtual super-government of
Russia."
Now whether Waldo wishes to take the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia as a
reliable source is up to him (though one should note that he was willing to
do so when he thought it served his case). The point, simply, is that this
source does not say what he claimed it said. On the contrary, it asserts
precisely the opposite.
Steven Mock
"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist
party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the
Kremlin, p. 81)
Though presented as a direct quote, this line does not, in fact, appear in
the text. What does appear is this: "That Trotsky, unquestionably the most
outstanding man among the Bolsheviks, was a Jew did not seem an insuperable
obstance in a party in which the percentage of Jews, 52 percent, was rather
high compared to the percentage of Jews (1.8 percent) in the total
population."
Though the content is roughly the same the difference is not trival. The
purpose of the line was not to assert the extent of Jewish dominance over
the communist party (as the misquote makes it appear) but merely to explain
why Jews like Trotsky and Kaganovich had the impression that the party gave
them reasonable opportunity for advancement. In light of this fact - and
the fact that two different sources have now been provided confirming that
the percentage of Jews in the party during this period was in fact *5.2%*
to the 1.8% of the general population, it is pretty darn clear that this is
a misprint. Otherwise, Kahan's comment that this percentage was "rather
high" is the understatement of the year. Does Waldo expect us to believe
that a party that was only 2.6% Jewish in 1918 managed to recruit nearly
200,000 Jews before 1922, only to have their Jewish membership *drop* to
45,000 in 1924?
Waldo goes on to offer his own commentary on Lazar Kaganovich:
"[Lazar Kaganovich was the Jewish orchestrator of the great man-made
Ukrainian famine under Stalin. Kaganovitch was responsible for the death by
starvation of MILLIONS of Ukrainians- Waldo comment]"
Kaganovich was certainly a monster, and indeed he was Jewish. And I
suppose these are the only pieces of information that Waldo wants you to
know. But what Waldo doesn't tell you - which his source goes into
extensively - is the fact that Kaganovich was also one of the most
loathsome and fanatical anti-Semites of the Soviet regime, personally
responsible for orchestrating the purges, arrests and murders of Jews and
the repression of Jewish organizations in the Soviet Union. He was
adamently opposed to the formation of the State of Israel, and Kahan states
quite bluntly on several occasions that - contrary to Waldo's other
assertions - during this time he was the "sole Jew in [Stalin's]
hierarchy."(cf. preface, pp. 14-15, 249)
Take, for example, the following discussion of Kaganovich's activities in
the 1930's:
"The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, which was considered to have done
excellent work during the war, was now dissolved, and its leaders were
arrested. The charges were too easy. They were deemed to be working
against the state. All Jewish cultural institutions, like the Moscow
Jewish Theater, were liquidated. The Communist party apparatus and the
ministries at all levels were pruged of Jewish personnel. In colleges, in
scientific institutes, even in many factories, a quota system was
introduced. The number of Jews was reduced to a minimum; in some instances
this number was set at zero.
"Lazar's intention was simple. He would quietly wipe out all the victories
of the revolution. He would rob the Jews of their dignity and turn them
once more into second-class citizens, perhaps even less. In effect, he
stopped just short of extermination.
"Important Jewish figures were hustled off to detention camps for
'redevelopment and reorientation' - if they survived. Prisons became
filled to capacity. In Lubyanka, each cell contained one Russian and five
Jews."(p. 251)
Is this what amounts to a "Jewish movement" in your eyes, Waldo? Or, as
Seneca put it, "government of the Jews, by the Jews and for the Jews."?
Steven Mock
Steven Mock
Seneca
> Very well, Waldo. You have demonstrated that the book "The World
> Significance of the Russian Revolution" exists in the Oxford library.
<gasp!> An admission from Steven Mock that he was wrong?
The millennium has arrived for sure, then.
Seneca
Steven Mock
news:DpO5a.65275$zF6.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns932A74CC5534...@206.172.150.14...
>> Very well, Waldo. You have demonstrated that the book "The World
>> Significance of the Russian Revolution" exists in the Oxford library.
>
> <gasp!> An admission from Steven Mock that he was wrong?
Of course, Seneca. Its not like I'm Tom Moran, who's still insisting that
no excavations were ever conducted at Belzec, and that the Krakow Institute
for Forensic Research doesn't exist.
Waldo has undoubtedly proven me wrong in my earlier assertion that "The
World Significance of the Russian Revolution" could not be found in the
Oxford University Library.
Its amusing that he seems to think that this rather modest victory is cause
to spend a total of 400 lines over 2 messages strutting like a peacock and
crowing about my "humiliation". Especially since my inability to find this
text was the result of his misspelling of the author's name.
But, if he gets so much pleasure out of it, he might as well enjoy. Though
to me it seems to expose just how desperate he is for even the appearence
of a victory.
In all of that crowing however, I fail to see him explain how the quote or
the text in question serves his or your case. Do you really think you're
right, just because someone named "Oscar Levy" said something similar in
the 1920's? Have any credible facts been presented - by you or him - to
back up this world-view? Not that I've seen.
If gloating about my error allows you to distract from the substance of the
argument (the rest of which you didn't see the need to address, I see),
that pretty much shows your hand.
Waldo
> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> news:DpO5a.65275$zF6.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> > news:Xns932A74CC5534...@206.172.150.14...
> >> Very well, Waldo. You have demonstrated that the book "The World
> >> Significance of the Russian Revolution" exists in the Oxford library.
> >
> > <gasp!> An admission from Steven Mock that he was wrong?
>
> Of course, Seneca. Its not like I'm Tom Moran, who's still insisting that
> no excavations were ever conducted at Belzec, and that the Krakow
Institute
> for Forensic Research doesn't exist.
>
> Waldo has undoubtedly proven me wrong in my earlier assertion that "The
> World Significance of the Russian Revolution" could not be found in the
> Oxford University Library.
>
> Its amusing that he seems to think that this rather modest victory is
cause
> to spend a total of 400 lines over 2 messages strutting like a peacock and
> crowing about my "humiliation". Especially since my inability to find
this
> text was the result of his misspelling of the author's name.
>
> But, if he gets so much pleasure out of it, he might as well enjoy.
Though
> to me it seems to expose just how desperate he is for even the appearence
> of a victory.
LOL!
> In all of that crowing however, I fail to see him explain how the quote or
> the text in question serves his or your case. Do you really think you're
> right, just because someone named "Oscar Levy" said something similar in
> the 1920's? Have any credible facts been presented - by you or him - to
> back up this world-view? Not that I've seen.
>
> If gloating about my error allows you to distract from the substance of
the
> argument (the rest of which you didn't see the need to address, I see),
> that pretty much shows your hand.
Forgive me if I seemed overly exuberant when I discovered proof of the
Pitt-Rivers material, Steve.
It's just that you were so cock sure that the lack of the proof of its
existence was the "smoking gun" that would prove all of the quotes to be
fabricated.
Anyway, I look forward to your addressing the new material I posted to day
under the heading "More on Jews and Communism", which makes the Pitt-Rivers
material pale by comparison.
Susan Cohen
Translation: she was a supporter of terrorism.
It's how she got the nickname "Jihad Cindy"
and Jewish money and support flowed into the
> > coffers of her opponent.
Only Jews are not allowed to spend their own money where they want.
Bigots are quite fascist in their hatreds.
> > Jewish groups then crowed about having
> > defeated her, once again supporting the
nonexistent
> >claim of Israeli politicians
> > that THEY control the U.S. Congress.
Amazing how these bigots just repeat proven lies.
Goebbels would be rpoud.
>Is that the McKinney you mean?
>
> No. Its interesting that you don't know who I mean. Seeing as you
> dismissed my reference to Waldo's source as "an anti-Semitic website", I
> assumed you were familiar with the source in question and therefore in a
> position to make a judgement.
>
> If you weren't, then how do you know he isn't?
Bigots know nothing. They just parrot the same garbage, ad nauseum.
>
> >> > But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
> >> > correct, they are correct.
> >>
> >> Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know
> >> this for
> >> a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
> >> notions.
> >
> > I presume they are correct because the citations are given.
>
> Its because of to gullible people like you that Holocaust denial still has
> any life left in it at all.
Not gullible: willing liars.
>
> >> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
> >> list:
> >>
> >> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred....
> >> We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted
> >> of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the
> >> world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its
> >> executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World
> >> Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George
> >> Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
> >>
> >> I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the
> >> Russian Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford
> >> University, and confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't
> >> just mean search the web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on
> >> another anti-Semitic website. I mean find the actual published text
> >> in question and see the quote with your own two eyes.
> >
> > Are you claiming that no such text exists?
Dodge noted.
>
> Why don't you check for yourself?
>
> >> I'll give you a head start. Here's the Library of Congress website:
> >>
> >> http://www.loc.gov/
> >
> > Oxford University is in England, Steven. I don't know that the Library
> > of Congress catalogs every foreign book.
>
> Its pretty comprehensive. But there is, of course, a possibility that
this
> particular book might have been overlooked.
>
> So if you want to be sure, Oxford University Library's catalogue is here:
>
> http://library.ox.ac.uk/
>
> The University of London Library catalogue is here:
>
> http://www.ull.ac.uk/
You're not holding your breath, are you?
>
> > Are you claiming that there is no such person as Professor George
> > Pitts-Rivers?
>
> Why are you asking me, Seneca? Why not check for yourself. Oxford
> University's website is here:
>
> http://www.ox.ac.uk/
>
> And its searchable.
>
> Let me give you free clue, Seneca. I've already done all of the above.
It will be interesting to see how he runs.
(Not if, but *how*).
Susan
Susan Cohen
> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> news:Ltw5a.63604$zF6.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> > news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
> >> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> >> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> >>
> >> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> >> > news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
> >> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> >> >> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> >> >>
> >> >> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
> >> >>
> >> >> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
> >> >> >> from antisemitic websites.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
> >> >>
> >> >> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
> >> >> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
> >> >> anti-Semitic website?
> >> >
> >> > "anti-Semitic website" means "any website providing facts and
> >> > information that Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of."
> >>
> >> No. It means a website whose sole purpose is to smear and libel Jews
> >> with fabrications of this sort.
> >>
> >>
> >> Are you arguing that McKinney is NOT an anti-Semite, Seneca?
> >
> > black Georgia former representative who lost her Congressional seat in
> > the last election because she was not sufficiently subservient to
> > Israeli interests,
Translation: she was a supporter of terrorism.
It's how she got the nickname "Jihad Cindy"
and Jewish money and support flowed into the
> > coffers of her opponent.
Only Jews are not allowed to spend their own money where they want.
Bigots are quite fascist in their hatreds.
> > Jewish groups then crowed about having
> > defeated her, once again supporting the
nonexistent
> >claim of Israeli politicians
> > that THEY control the U.S. Congress.
Amazing how these bigots just repeat proven lies.
Goebbels would be rpoud.
>Is that the McKinney you mean?
>
> No. Its interesting that you don't know who I mean. Seeing as you
> dismissed my reference to Waldo's source as "an anti-Semitic website", I
> assumed you were familiar with the source in question and therefore in a
> position to make a judgement.
>
> If you weren't, then how do you know he isn't?
Bigots know nothing. They just parrot the same garbage, ad nauseum.
>
> >> > But what difference would it make anyway? If the references are
> >> > correct, they are correct.
> >>
> >> Point taken. But are the references correct, Seneca? Do you know
> >> this for
> >> a fact, or do you just assume so because they suit your preconceived
> >> notions.
> >
> > I presume they are correct because the citations are given.
>
> Its because of to gullible people like you that Holocaust denial still has
> any life left in it at all.
Not gullible: willing liars.
>
> >> I tell you what, Seneca. Let's take the following quote from Waldo's
> >> list:
> >>
> >> "We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred....
> >> We who have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted
> >> of having given it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the
> >> world's seducers, its destroyers, its incendiaries, its
> >> executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface to the book The World
> >> Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor George
> >> Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
> >>
> >> I challenge you to find this book, "The World Significance of the
> >> Russian Revolution" by Professor George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford
> >> University, and confirm that this quote really exists. And I don't
> >> just mean search the web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on
> >> another anti-Semitic website. I mean find the actual published text
> >> in question and see the quote with your own two eyes.
> >
> > Are you claiming that no such text exists?
Dodge noted.
>
> Why don't you check for yourself?
>
> >> I'll give you a head start. Here's the Library of Congress website:
> >>
> >> http://www.loc.gov/
> >
> > Oxford University is in England, Steven. I don't know that the Library
> > of Congress catalogs every foreign book.
>
> Its pretty comprehensive. But there is, of course, a possibility that
this
> particular book might have been overlooked.
>
> So if you want to be sure, Oxford University Library's catalogue is here:
>
> http://library.ox.ac.uk/
>
> The University of London Library catalogue is here:
>
> http://www.ull.ac.uk/
You're not holding your breath, are you?
>
> > Are you claiming that there is no such person as Professor George
> > Pitts-Rivers?
>
> Why are you asking me, Seneca? Why not check for yourself. Oxford
> University's website is here:
>
> http://www.ox.ac.uk/
>
> And its searchable.
>
> Let me give you free clue, Seneca. I've already done all of the above.
It will be interesting to see how he runs.
(Not if, but *how*).
Susan
>
> You see, I do my research *before* I mouth off.
>
Susan Cohen
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> news:3e5702b5$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>
> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> > news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
> >> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> >> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> >>
> >> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> >> > news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
> >> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
> >> >> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> >> >>
> >> >> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
> >> >>
> >> >> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
> >> >> >> from antisemitic websites.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
> >> >>
> >> >> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
> >> >> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
> >> >> anti-Semitic website?
> >
> > I cut and pasted them from a website, and that website is probably not
> > run by Semitists.
Or even people who tell the truth
> >Did you think that I found them on a website and
> > then typed them in manually?
>
> No. But I do know that you have no idea whether the quotes are accurate,
> honest, or even whether they exist.
>
> Only that they serve your purposes.
>
> So why don't you tell us which website?
*My* guess is that he's trying to come up with back-track before he
announces which website.
> > Interesting choice.
To put it mildly.
You could have selected Ginsberg, Cantor, or other
> > easily verifyable sources ( I even gave Philthy an amazon link to one
> > of Cantor's books) but no you had to choose the ONE cite that you
> > thought would be most difficult to verify - obviously hoping that
> > everyone would believe that, if ONE quote can't be verified, ALL of
> > the quotes MUST be forged.
More like he's pretending that only *one* is a lie.
> >
> > Wasn't that the game plan?
>
> No. I plan to get to all of the other ones tomorrow.
As if his whole post isn't a weak dodge.
Susan
Susan Cohen
> As Waldo activates the *spin* cycle to try and cover for the fact that the
> first of his bogus quotations has been thoroughly exposed...
>
> >> the web until you find the quote posted elsewhere on another
> >> anti-Semitic website. I mean find the actual published text in
> >> question and see the quote with your own two eyes.
> >
> > I challenge you to find the ORIGINAL copy of the Ten Commandments, And
> > I DON'T mean some copy of a copy of a copy, but the REAL thing,
> > written in stone by the finger of the Jewish god, and handed to Moses
> > on Sinai.
>
> I'm sorry, the ORIGINAL Ten Commandments (if they existed at all) were
> written some 3000 years ago. Here we are talking about a book written
> within the past century. If such a book existed, there would be evidence
> of it - in my university library, in the libraries of the universities of
> London or Oxford, in the Library of Congress.
The cheap dodge of asking for the 10 Commandments completely ignores the
fact that the 10 Commandments aren't making statements about anyone.
Susan
Susan Cohen
"Brad Scott" <t--avi-...@RemoveHyphens2MAILix.n-etc-om.com> wrote in
message news:d7ae5volhkqm39h12...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 15:46:49 GMT,
<Xns93296E8D3D6...@207.35.177.134>
> Steven Mock <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote:
>
> >> How is that? Name call and personal attack AFTER deleting what I
> >> posted from your reply as you did above (which has been done numerous
> >> times) is not debunking what I post!
> :
> >Try that again in English?
>
> I did speak English and I was cogent but you are too god damned stupid to
> understand.
More like too used to correct English.
I understood what you said. Then again, I used to be a kindergarten teacher.
Susan
Waldo
"Susan Cohen" <fla...@his.com> wrote in message
news:3e582...@vienna7.his.com...
Attention Mr. Mock:
Susan claims to have me kill-filed. Would you mind bringing her up to date
on this topic?
Thanks in advance.
Steven Mock
news:3e5810f8$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns932A9A9BF355...@207.35.177.135...
>> In all of that crowing however, I fail to see him explain how the
>> quote or the text in question serves his or your case. Do you really
>> think you're right, just because someone named "Oscar Levy" said
>> something similar in the 1920's? Have any credible facts been
>> presented - by you or him - to back up this world-view? Not that
>> I've seen.
>>
>> If gloating about my error allows you to distract from the substance
>> of the
>> argument (the rest of which you didn't see the need to address, I
>> see), that pretty much shows your hand.
>
> Forgive me if I seemed overly exuberant when I discovered proof of the
> Pitt-Rivers material, Steve.
>
> It's just that you were so cock sure that the lack of the proof of its
> existence was the "smoking gun" that would prove all of the quotes to
> be fabricated.
Like I said, Waldo. I was only getting started.
Philip Mathews
Well, since the Pitt-Rivers material was just the unsupported opinion of
another Jew hater we can only hope that you will finally post for the first
time information supporting your claim that Jews were largely responsible
for Communism.
--
Philip Mathews
"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."
Samuel Johnson
Philip Mathews
Susan- Waldo has produced a large number of quotes which claim that Jews
were disproportionately represented in communism, apparently an unknown fact
to him. He thinks this supports the canard that communism was "largely" or
"overwhelmingly" Jewish. The fact is it was largely and overwhelmingly
gentile and Russian.
Steven Mock
> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3e58268b$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
>> Attention Mr. Mock:
>>
>> Susan claims to have me kill-filed. Would you mind bringing her up to
>> date on this topic?
>
> Susan- Waldo has produced a large number of quotes which claim that
> Jews were disproportionately represented in communism, apparently an
> unknown fact to him. He thinks this supports the canard that communism
> was "largely" or "overwhelmingly" Jewish. The fact is it was largely
> and overwhelmingly gentile and Russian.
Sounds like a good summary to me.
Waldo
Whatever gave you the idea that I was trying to prove the silly six word
phrase that you and Mock keep regurgitating: "Jews were largely responsible
for communism"?
And what exactly would constitute "proof" to you that they were? Would Jews
have to make up more than 50% of all Communists?
In revolutionary Russia, for instance, Jews made up over 5.2 % of the
Communist Party, but only 1.8% of the overall population, thus they are
over-represented by a factor of 2.88.
What percentage of the Republican Party does the Bush family make up? So
small a percentage that it is infinitesimal.
According to the Philthy / Mock theory, the Bush family is powerless, and
has no influence on US policy.
The point is NOT whether Communism was a largely Jewish movement, but
whether Communism, Bolshevik and world-wide, was influenced / guided /
directed / promoted by Jews.
Clearly it was.
Steven Mock
news:3e587591$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
> "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:XRY5a.203855$iG3.23870@sccrnsc02...
>> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:3e5810f8$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
>> Well, since the Pitt-Rivers material was just the unsupported opinion
>> of another Jew hater we can only hope that you will finally post for
>> the first
>> time information supporting your claim that Jews were largely
>> responsible for Communism.
>
> Whatever gave you the idea that I was trying to prove the silly six
> word phrase that you and Mock keep regurgitating: "Jews were largely
> responsible for communism"?
>
> And what exactly would constitute "proof" to you that they were? Would
> Jews have to make up more than 50% of all Communists?
>
> In revolutionary Russia, for instance, Jews made up over 5.2 % of the
> Communist Party, but only 1.8% of the overall population, thus they
> are over-represented by a factor of 2.88.
>
> What percentage of the Republican Party does the Bush family make up?
> So small a percentage that it is infinitesimal.
>
> According to the Philthy / Mock theory, the Bush family is powerless,
> and has no influence on US policy.
>
> The point is NOT whether Communism was a largely Jewish movement, but
> whether Communism, Bolshevik and world-wide, was influenced / guided /
> directed / promoted by Jews.
Sure it was. It was also influenced, guided, directed and promoted by
Russians, Georgians, Latvians, Germans and Poles, so what the hell is your
point.
The question is whether those Jews who did involve themselves in the
communist movement did so in the name of Jewish interests, or against them.
Clearly, it was the latter, so the fact of their being of Jewish descent is
irrelevant to the question of whether communism was "a Jewish movement",
which clearly it was not.
Seneca
Good grief. ALL THAT in reply to my one short line?
And the admission of YOUR failure to find the referenced source somehow
becomes transmogrified into "[exposing] just how desperate [Waldo] is for
even the appearance of a victory"?
Remarkable!
Seneca
Steven Mock
news:Sr66a.47412$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> And the admission of YOUR failure to find the referenced source
> somehow becomes transmogrified into "[exposing] just how desperate
> [Waldo] is for even the appearance of a victory"?
No, Waldo's gloating over 400 lines over the fact that I was wrong in
asserting that this text could not be found in the Oxford University
Library demonstrates just how desperate he is for even the appearence of a
victory.
Wouldn't you say? Or does my error in this matter somehow prove some
dramatic point?
Philip Mathews
LOL!
> And what exactly would constitute "proof" to you that they were? Would
Jews
> have to make up more than 50% of all Communists?
Proof would be result of evidence sufficient to make the case.
You've presented none.
> In revolutionary Russia, for instance, Jews made up over 5.2 % of the
> Communist Party, but only 1.8% of the overall population, thus they are
> over-represented by a factor of 2.88.
And others such as Poles and Latvians were even more overreprsented.
The fact of the matter is you're not saying anything.
Your just engaging in your usual Jew hating rants and you don't have the
intellectual horsepower to camouflage it as something else.
[...]
> According to the Philthy / Mock theory, the Bush family is powerless, and
> has no influence on US policy.
According to our theory, you've been revealed once again as know nothing
antisemite!
Lao Tzu
> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
> news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
>> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
>> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>
>> > "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
>> > news:Xns93296FFEC858...@207.35.177.134...
>> >> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
>> >> news:3e55e270$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>> >>
>> >> > "Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message
>> >> > news:2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54...
>> >>
>> >> >> No evidence has been presented, just the cut and paste nonsense
>> >> >> from antisemitic websites.
>> >> >
>> >> > Bullshit, Philthy. All references were cited.
>> >>
>> >> Tell us the truth, Waldo. Did you look up every one of those
>> >> references yourself, or did you just cut and paste them from an
>> >> anti-Semitic website?
>> >
>> > I think everyone understands by now that in the Mock lexicon,
>> > "anti-Semitic website" means "any website providing facts and
>> > information that Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of."
>>
>> No. It means a website whose sole purpose is to smear and libel Jews with
>> fabrications of this sort.
>>
>> Thanks for playing.
>>
>> Are you arguing that McKinney is NOT an anti-Semite, Seneca?
>
> I have no idea who McKinney is,
So when you characterized Steve's claim that Waldo's source was
anti-semitic as "any website providing facts and information that
Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of" you actually had no
fucking clue whether Waldo's source actually *is* anti-semitic.
Unless, of course, you're going to give us all a hearty laugh by
claiming that there is no such thing as an anti-semite.
--
The Taos is an empty vessel, it is used but never filled
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Lao Tzu wrote
in message <MS96a.213684$tq4.5217@sccrnsc01>:
>"Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> writes:
>> "Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
>> news:Xns932980A95E25...@206.172.150.13...
>>> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
>>> news:qQs5a.44704$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>>> > I think everyone understands by now that in the Mock lexicon,
>>> > "anti-Semitic website" means "any website providing facts and
>>> > information that Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of."
>>> No. It means a website whose sole purpose is to smear and libel Jews with
>>> fabrications of this sort.
>>>
>>> Thanks for playing.
>>>
>>> Are you arguing that McKinney is NOT an anti-Semite, Seneca?
>> I have no idea who McKinney is,
> So when you characterized Steve's claim that Waldo's source was
> anti-semitic as "any website providing facts and information that
> Jews prefer people to remain ignorant of" you actually had no
> fucking clue whether Waldo's source actually *is* anti-semitic.
>
> Unless, of course, you're going to give us all a hearty laugh by
> claiming that there is no such thing as an anti-semite.
Just like when he was citing a book on Eisenhower's treatment of
German POW's after the war, whose author's name he did not even
recognize in support of his declaration that Eisenhower's actions were
"at least as bad as anything the Nazis did "
He claims now to have read the book, but seem strangely reluctant to
continue the debate he started.
Of course, he would never admit that his earlier comments were based
in anti-semitic ignorance and having read the book he can no longer
pretend that they were anything but.
Education and primary sources seem to have that effect on Jew haters,
assuming you can get them to acknowledge having been exposed to
them...
Steven Mock
Jewish periodicals from earlier in the last century, as my library does not
have them archived. But apparently, others with better resources have in
the past:
"The Bolshevik revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of
Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new
order in the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia,
thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction and by
Jewish planning, shall also, through the same Jewish mental an physical
forces, become a reality all over the world." (The American Hebrew,
September 10, 1920)
This quote is particularly interesting in light of Waldo's and Seneca's
often repeated claim that denial that communism is a Jewish movement is
disingenuous, in that in the past "Jews" (as a collective, I suppose) took
pride in their domination of the communist movement and its excesses.
<From a previous Usenet message>
min...@cybernex.net (Jacob Minsky)
(slrn7utbjc.3...@cc303477-a.vron1.nj.home.com)
Sun, 26 Sep 1999 23:38:18 GMT
[..] First of all, this is not a quote at all, but at the most an extremely
tendentious paraphrase, and the second sentence is a complete invention.
Second, this particular issue - actually, it is a color supplement to the
magazine - is devoted to the topic of "non-Jewish opinions about Jews." To
that end, it consists of articles by various non-Jewish guest commentators;
e.g. it has an article by Georges Clemenceau. The opinions in the quote
above are contained (but not in such extreme form, or in those words) in an
article by one Tsvetan Tonjoroff, of whom I have never heard (and, more
tellingly, neither have any biographical references that I've been able to
search). So I really can't say why he was invited to submit an article.
There is not the slightest indication that his opinion is shared by the
staff of _American Hebrew_, any Jews, or what have you. In fact, this issue
- and many of the previous ones - contain articles that debunk the usual
antisemitic lie that Bolshevism is Jewish, discuss the serious situation of
Jews in early Soviet Russia, quote from respected sources (e.g. General
Kolchak, if I recall), and so on.
</quote>
Richard Phillips
===============================================================
Phillips
THe world is full of nits begging to be picked and there are
no greater pigkers than wordy Jews. But it does you no good.
The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
facts permit of no other interpretation.
I am fully aware that the Jewish responsibility for the
Bolshevik horrors seriously damages their proclaimed posture
of Jews as innocent victims and that alone. Tough, you'll
just have to live with it.
======================================================
Black Knight
> <deletia>
The subject line is misleading and demonstrates Waldo's ignorance.
There is no difference between Communism and Bolshevism. Bolshevik was
the original name of the party founded and led by Lenin.
After the civil war that followed the revolution of 1917, it was
decided to change the name of the party to Communist. It was a
publicity stunt-an attempt to distance the party from the massive
death toll and suffering that occurred during the civil war of
1917-22. The truth is that, after 1922, the name Bolshevik became
obsolete.(Source:"Red Empire", a documentary by Dr Robert Conquest)
Bruno
White Rose
Shut up Jew Boy. You only post what I want to see posted. The White
Rose has spoken. Do I make myself clear?
--
White Rose-Yorkshire Proud
Black Knight
Come on, big shot- make me obey. That I wanna see.
Bruno
Black Knight
Go suck a horse's dick.
Steven Mock
news:3E59AB9D...@mbay.net:
> ===============================================================
> Phillips
>
> THe world is full of nits begging to be picked and there are
> no greater pigkers than wordy Jews. But it does you no good.
> The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
> facts permit of no other interpretation.
If that were the case, Mr. Phillips, then why would Waldo and his sources
have to fabricate quotes and lie about the evidence in order to prove it?
William Daffer
> "Seneca" <noj...@thishere.net> wrote in
> news:Sr66a.47412$rq4.3...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>> And the admission of YOUR failure to find the referenced source
>> somehow becomes transmogrified into "[exposing] just how desperate
>> [Waldo] is for even the appearance of a victory"?
>
> No, Waldo's gloating over 400 lines over the fact that I was wrong in
> asserting that this text could not be found in the Oxford University
> Library demonstrates just how desperate he is for even the appearence of a
> victory.
>
> Wouldn't you say? Or does my error in this matter somehow prove some
> dramatic point?
It does; that Seneca and Waldo are horse's asses.
whd
--
The DEM unit commenting on the harassment campaign against Sara
Salzman which has been going on for *months*.
Looks to me like a harmless bit of fun at the expense of a rather
unpleasant person.
Richard Phillips
Steven Mock wrote:
>
> Richard Phillips <rgp...@mbay.net> wrote in
> news:3E59AB9D...@mbay.net:
>
> > ===============================================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > THe world is full of nits begging to be picked and there are
> > no greater pigkers than wordy Jews. But it does you no good.
> > The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
> > facts permit of no other interpretation.
>
> If that were the case, Mr. Phillips, then why would Waldo and his sources
> have to fabricate quotes and lie about the evidence in order to prove it?
>
> Steven Mock
=================================================================
Phillips
I am responsible for my own posts - not Waldo's.
However, if you wish me to address your questions, I may
make an attempt to do so when you have substantiated your
claims thet he
--fabricated quotes
--lied about the evidence
=====================================================================
Yitzchak Goodman
> ===============================================================
> Phillips
>
> THe world is full of nits begging to be picked and there are
> no greater pigkers than wordy Jews. But it does you no good.
> The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
> facts permit of no other interpretation.
>
> I am fully aware that the Jewish responsibility for the
> Bolshevik horrors seriously damages their proclaimed posture
> of Jews as innocent victims and that alone. Tough, you'll
> just have to live with it.
>
> ======================================================
The following list of major Gentile Communist figures
was compiled for satiric purposes, but I tried to make
it as accurate as possible.
So here it is: an answer to all the net-Nazis
who try to convince us that the major Communist figures
were "mainly" or "mostly" or "almost exclusively" Jewish.
What follows contains no polemic, but only facts
(aside from a few snide observations). So
without further ado, the list that pushes back
the last frontier of ignorance, the list of
COMMIE GOYIM!!!!!!!
Engels (Never forget that Das Kapital was written in German by two
guys named Karl and Friedrich.)
Lenin (5th on Rudolph Rummel's list of the "20th Century's Bloodiest
Murderers" http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_murderers.html )
Stalin (Most blood-stained person who ever lived, #1 on Rummel's list)
Felix Dzerzhinsky (Founder, in 1918, of the Checka secret
police agency, precursor organization of the GPU, OGPU,
NKVD, and KGB)
Vyacheslav Rudolfovich Menzhinsky (Succeeded Dzerzhinsky in 1926)
Nikolai Bukharin (Major Bolshevik theoretician, Politburo Member,
Editor of Pravda)
Kamenev (Member of the Original Politburo, Often mistakenly identified
as a Jew
although mother was non-Jew, Originally sided with Stalin and Zinoviev
against Trotsky but forced out by Stalin along with Zinoviev in 1926)
Anatoli Vasilyevich Lunacharsky (Revolutionary, Literary Figure,
Commissar of Education 1917–29)
Georgi Vasilyevich Chicherin (Foreign Comissar/Minister, succeeding
Trotsky, until 1928)
Lavrenti Beria (Head of Soviet Secret Police from 1938 until
Stalin's Death, Deputy Premier under Malenkov)
Nikolai Yezhov (Beria's predecessor, head of NKVD under Stalin,
1936-1938 wave of terror known as "Yezhovshchina")
Nikolai Bulganin (Defense Minister under Stalin, briefly
succeeded Malenkov as Premier)
Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Molotov (Chairman of the Council of People's
Commissars, then Foreign Minister, negotiated non-agression pact
between
Soviets and Nazi Germany)
Georgi Maksimilianovich Malenkov (Politburo member, Deputy Premier
under Stalin, briefly succeeded Stalin as Premier)
Aleksey Ivanovich Rykov (Premier from 1924-1931, sided with Stalin
against Zinoviev, Kamenev, and Trotsky)
Mikhail Tomsky (Another major figure in the power struggles that
eventually led
to the consolidation of Stalin's power)
Kliment Voroshilov (Politburo member under Stalin)
Mikhail Kalinin (Politburo member under Stalin)
Sergei Kirov (Politburo member under Stalin)
Vsevolod Nikolayevich Merkulov (Head of NKGB 1941-1946)
Heads of MGB:
Vsevolod Nikolayevich Merkulov March 19 1946 - May 7 1946
Viktor Semyonovich Abakumov 1946-1951
Sergey Ogoltsov July 14 1951 - August 9 1951
Semyon Denisovich Ignatiyev 1951-1953
Heads of KGB:
Ivan Aleksandrovich Serov 1954-1958
Aleksandr Nikolayevich Shelepin 1958-1961
Vladimir Yefimovich Semichastniy 1961-1967
Yuri Vladimirovich Andropov 1967-1982
Vitaliy Vasilyevich Fedorchuk May 26 1982 - December 17 1982
Viktor Mikhaylovich Chebrikov 1982-1988
Vladimir Aleksandrovich Kryuchkov 1988-1991
Leonid Nikolayevich Shebarshin August 22 1991 - August 23 1991
(Acting)
Vadim Viktorovich Bakatin August 23 1991 - October 22 1991
(Source for NKGB, MGB, KGB entries: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB
)
Khrushchev
Brezhnev
Yuri Vladimirovich Andropov
(http://edwardjayepstein.com/archived/andropov.htm)
Konstantin Chernenko
Tito (9th on Rummel's list of "20th Century's Bloodiest Murderers")
Aleksandar Rankovic (Tito's second in command 1948-1966)
Vulko Chervenkov (Dictator of Bulgaria 1950-1956)
Todor Zhikov (Dictator of Bulgaria 1956-1989)
Mao (2nd on Rummel's list)
Pol Pot (7th on Rummel's list)
Ho Chi Minh
János Kádár (Head of Communist Hungary 1956-1988)
Wladyslaw Gomulka (Head of Communist Poland 1956-1970)
Gheorgehe Gheorghiu-Dej (According to Dennis Deletant, instituted
"police terror" in Communist Romania)
Nicolae Ceausescu (Dej's successor, Head of Communist Romania
1965-1989--why
are so many of these guys named "Nikolai"?)
Elena Ceucescu (Ceaucescu's wife, major figure in Ceaucescu's
government,
promoted cult of personality surrounding Ceaucescu)
Tudor Postelnicu (Promoted to Interior Minister of Romania in 1987,
head of dreaded Securitate security service up to that point)
Iulian Vlad (Following Postelnicu's promotion, succeeded him
as Head of Securitate)
George Nicolae Doicaru (Head of Securitate at time of 1978 defection
of
Ion Pacepa) (Source on Ceaucescu and Romania: Ceausescu and the
Securitate: Coercion and Dissent in Romania, 1965-1989 By Dennis
Deletant. Armonk, N.Y.: M. E. Sharpe, 1995)
Deng Xiaoping ( http://www.laogai.org/comment/dissent.htm )
Jiang Qing (Mrs. Mao, the rest of the "Gang of Four" follow)
Wang Hongwen
Yao Wenyuan
Zhang Chunqiao
Walter Ulbricht (Head of East Germany 1950-1971, Built Berlin Wall,
sent troops to help Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia)
Erich Honecker (Succeeded Ulbricht)
Fidel Castro
Kim Il Sung (Head of North Korea 1948–94)
Kim Jong Il (Son of the above)
Fusako Shigenobu (Head of Japanese Red Army)
Andreas Baader, Ulrike Meinhof (Baader-Meinhof Gang)
Erich Mielke (Head of Stasi 1957-1989)
Gus Hall (Head of U.S. Communist Party)
Enver Hoxha (Leader of Communist Albania 1946-1985)
Gustave Husak (Leader of Czechoslovakia after suppression of
"Prague Spring.")
(The following seven entries were contributed by Eugene Holman)
Otto Vilgelmovich Kuusinen, Finnish communist, exiled to the USSR
after
Finnish independence was consolidated following WW I and the civil war
that ensued, headed failed Soviet-supported bogus Terijojki government
after Soviet attack on USSR in 1939, eventually rose to be the only
foreign-born member of the Soviet Politburo.
Hertta Kuusinen, Finnish communist leader, Otto's daughter. gave a
notorious speech in 1948 shortly after the communist take-over in
Czechoslovakia in which she stated "Czechoslovakia's way will be our
way".
Antanas Snieckus, grand old man of Lithuanian communism, lived in
exile in
the USSR, but tried repeatedly to subvert the Lithuanian state.
Lithuanian
Communist Party head after the country was incorporatedinto the USSR.
Defied Moscow and built his own brand of Lithuanian communism.
Anastas Ivanovich Mikoyan, Armenian Communist Party head, Chairman of
the
USSR Supreme Soviet Presidium, Politburo member.
Arvid Yanovich Pelshe, Latvian Communist Party head, head of the
Soviet
Communist Party Control Committee and responsible for internal
migration
policies, including deportations, ethnic dilutions, and policies
leading
to de facto Russification of non-Russian republics.
Mikhail Andreyevich Suslov, ideological watchdog maintaining purity of
communist doctrine, Politburo member.
Angela Davis, civil rights activist and philosopher, Gus Hall's
vice-presidential candidate when he ran for the American presidency in
1972.
Renato Curcio (Red Brigades)
Alberto Franceschini (Red Brigades)
Mario Moretti (Red Brigades, negotiated mutual aid pact with PLO)
Do Muoi (Became General Secretary of Vietnamese Communist Party in
1991)
Le Kha Phieu (Became General Secretary of Vietnamese Communist Party
in 1997)
Nong Duc Manh (Current General Secretary of Vietnamese Commuunist
Party)
Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, "Carlos the Jackal"
Ernesto Che Guevara
George Habash, PFLP
Wadi Haddad, PFLP
Leila Khaled, PFLP
*****************************************************************************
Hope you enjoyed it,
Yitz
Steven Mock
> Steven Mock wrote:
>>
>> Richard Phillips <rgp...@mbay.net> wrote in
>> news:3E59AB9D...@mbay.net:
>>
>> > ===============================================================
>> > Phillips
>> >
>> > THe world is full of nits begging to be picked and there are
>> > no greater pigkers than wordy Jews. But it does you no good.
>> > The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
>> > facts permit of no other interpretation.
>>
>> If that were the case, Mr. Phillips, then why would Waldo and his
>> sources have to fabricate quotes and lie about the evidence in order
>> to prove it?
>>
>> Steven Mock
>
> =================================================================
> Phillips
>
> I am responsible for my own posts - not Waldo's.
Fair enough. But you were responding to one of the posts in which I
demonstrated that he did fabricate quotes and lie about the evidence. It
seems that you were calling that "nit-picking".
> However, if you wish me to address your questions, I may
> make an attempt to do so when you have substantiated your
> claims thet he
>
> --fabricated quotes
>
> --lied about the evidence
If you insist.
I.
Twice, Waldo provides the following quote, alleged to be from the Universal
Jewish Encyclopedia:
"Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the first Soviet
commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish position in the
Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White Armies which
opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as common
enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).
It appears again further down:
The Jewish Encyclopedia acknowledges the preponderance of Jews among the
Soviet power structure and that large numbers of Russians associated Jews
with Bolsheviks: "Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the
first Soviet commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish
position in the Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White
Armies which opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as
common enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).
Volume I page 336 of the Universal Jewish encylopedia contains no such
language. The page in question contains entries for "Anigonus", "Antigonus
of Socho", "Anti-Lebanon" and, ironically enough, the "Anti-Defamation
Leauge", and has nothing whatsoever to do with communism or the Soviet
Union.
One can find the entry on "communism" in the Universal Jewish Encyclopieda
(ed. Isaac Landman, Universal Jewish Encyclopedia Inc., New York. 1941), in
Volume III, pp.315-320. It includes the following:
"Since the Bolshevik Revolution, some opponents of Communism have repeaed
incessantly that, both as a political theory and as a revolutionary
movement, Communism is one of the manifestations of alleged Jewish
ambitions to destroy Christian civilization and to establish Jewish rule
the world over. This accusation, indeed, goes back to the middle of the
19th cent., to the beginnings of teh modern radical movement, when the
origin of Karl Marx - some of a baptized Jews, and the most prominent
leader of socialisrt thought and organization - was utilized by some
opponents to smear the movement with the taint of Jewishness...
"The alleged predominantly Jewish leadership and composition of the Russian
Communist Party has been a stock argument both against the Jews and against
the Communists outside of Russia as well. A glance at the statistics of
party membership taken at various times between 1918 and 1938 suffices to
disprove that underlying legend as far as membership is concerned. In 1918
the Russian Communist Party had 124,000 members. Of these, 75 per cent
were Russian Slavs, 10.8 per cent Letts (Latvians), 6.3 per cent Poles, 3.7
per cent Esthonians, 2.6 per cent Jews. In 1922, 5.2 per cent of the
membership was Jewish (19,526 members); in 1924 there were 5 per cent of
Jews out of an approximate total of 900,000; in 1929 the percentage dropped
to 3.5 (49,627 Jewish members). In 1938, according to the figures given by
the Paris emigre daily Posledniva Novosti, edited by Professor Paul
Milyukov, leader of the Constitutional Democrats, Jewish membership in the
Russian Communist Party constitued not more than 4.34 per cent.
"Now, the ratio of Jews to the total population of Russia was only 1.8 per
cent. The ratio of 4.34 per cent of Jewish membership in the Communist
Party accordingly appears rather forbidding; and indeed the enemies of both
the Jews and Communism, especially outside of Russia, have taken quick
advantage of these rations to smear the communists with the Jewish brush
and vice versa. The mere comparison of these figures, however, distorts
the true picture. While the total Jewish population is 1.8 per cent, it
must be noted that the Jews lived almost exclusively in the cities and
towns; in Russia's urban population the Jews constituted 11 per cent. Two
additional factors are taken into consideration. On the one hand, the
rural population took practically no part in political activities, and on
the other, there was virtually no illieracy among the Russian jews. Hence
it can be understood that when the Bolsheviks came to power and required in
all branches of the administration men and women who at least could read
and write, the percentage of Jewish Communist membership would be greater
than that of the non-Jewish Communist membership, a percentage, however,
which is not high under the circumstances.
"Much is made of the fact that during the first years of the Soviet regime
Jews were among the outstanding leaders of the Russian Communist party.
Because Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Radek, Litinov and others were Jews, it
was inferred that the Jews controlled the party and the government... In
reality, Jewish intellectuals were conspicuously identified with the
Social-Democratic Mensheviks (Abrahamovich, Axelrod, Dan, Liber, Martov)
who were bitterly opposed to the Bolshevik regime, also with the Social-
Revolutionaries (Gershuni, Gotz) who were the stringest party backing the
constitutional Kerensky regime; and with the moderate bourgeois-liberal
Constitutional Democrats, headed by professor Milyukov, who was assisted by
such extremely able leaders of Jewish origin as Vinaver, Herzenstein and
othe brotehrs Hessen and others...
"As time went on and a new generation of potential leaders was growing up
in Russia under entirely different circumstances, the importance of the
pre-War leaders of Jewish descent was bound to decrease. In the struggle
for power within the party between the "Opposition" headed by Trotsky,
Zinoviev and Kamenev on the one hand and the Stalin-Bukharin-Rykov majority
faction on the other, the latter used agaisnt the former arguments of a
veiled anti-Semitic nature... After the complete destruction of all
opposition within the party, sealed by the extermination of the entire
Bolshevik "Old Guard" during the purges of 1936 to 1938, most of the old
time leaders and executives of Jewish origin disappeared. The only
prominent Jews of the older generation who remained in the Party are Emil
Yaroslavsky, the leader of the "Godless" movement, and Maxim Litvinov, who
was "liquidated" as a diplomat shortly before the Moscow-Berlin pact of
August, 1939. Lazar Kaganovich, the only outstanding figure of Jewish
descent in the Communist leadership (1940), belongs to the younger
generation that grew up after the Revolution. Since the liquidation of all
oppositionists, Kaganovich has been the only Jewish member of the Political
Bureau, the supreme organ of the party and the virtual super-government of
Russia."
Now whether Waldo wishes to take the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia as a
reliable source is up to him (though one should note that he was willing to
do so when he thought it served his case). The point, simply, is that this
source does not say what he claimed it said. On the contrary, it asserts
precisely the opposite.
II.
Waldo quotes Start Kahan's book on Lazar Kaganovich as follows:
"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist
party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the
Kremlin, p. 81)
Though presented as a direct quote, this line does not, in fact, appear in
the text. What does appear is this: "That Trotsky, unquestionably the most
outstanding man among the Bolsheviks, was a Jew did not seem an insuperable
obstance in a party in which the percentage of Jews, 52 percent, was rather
high compared to the percentage of Jews (1.8 percent) in the total
population."
Though the content is roughly the same the difference is not trival. The
purpose of the line was not to assert the extent of Jewish dominance over
the communist party (as the misquote makes it appear) but merely to explain
why Jews like Trotsky and Kaganovich had the impression that the party gave
them reasonable opportunity for advancement. In light of this fact - and
the fact that two different sources have now been provided confirming that
the percentage of Jews in the party during this period was in fact *5.2%*
to the 1.8% of the general population, it is pretty darn clear that this is
a misprint. Otherwise, Kahan's comment that this percentage was "rather
high" is the understatement of the year. Does Waldo expect us to believe
that a party that was only 2.6% Jewish in 1918 managed to recruit nearly
200,000 Jews before 1922, only to have their Jewish membership *drop* to
45,000 in 1924?
Waldo goes on to offer his own commentary on Lazar Kaganovich:
"[Lazar Kaganovich was the Jewish orchestrator of the great man-made
Ukrainian famine under Stalin. Kaganovitch was responsible for the death by
starvation of MILLIONS of Ukrainians- Waldo comment]"
Kaganovich was certainly a monster, and indeed he was Jewish. And I
suppose these are the only pieces of information that Waldo wants you to
know. But what Waldo doesn't tell you - which his source goes into
extensively - is the fact that Kaganovich was also one of the most
loathsome and fanatical anti-Semites of the Soviet regime, personally
responsible for orchestrating the purges, arrests and murders of Jews and
the repression of Jewish organizations in the Soviet Union. He was
adamently opposed to the formation of the State of Israel, and Kahan states
quite bluntly on several occasions that - contrary to Waldo's other
assertions - during this time he was the "sole Jew in [Stalin's]
hierarchy."(cf. preface, pp. 14-15, 249)
Take, for example, the following discussion of Kaganovich's activities in
the 1930's:
"The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, which was considered to have done
excellent work during the war, was now dissolved, and its leaders were
arrested. The charges were too easy. They were deemed to be working
against the state. All Jewish cultural institutions, like the Moscow
Jewish Theater, were liquidated. The Communist party apparatus and the
ministries at all levels were pruged of Jewish personnel. In colleges, in
scientific institutes, even in many factories, a quota system was
introduced. The number of Jews was reduced to a minimum; in some instances
this number was set at zero.
"Lazar's intention was simple. He would quietly wipe out all the victories
of the revolution. He would rob the Jews of their dignity and turn them
once more into second-class citizens, perhaps even less. In effect, he
stopped just short of extermination.
"Important Jewish figures were hustled off to detention camps for
'redevelopment and reorientation' - if they survived. Prisons became
filled to capacity. In Lubyanka, each cell contained one Russian and five
Jews."(p. 251)
Is this what amounts to a "Jewish movement" in your eyes, Waldo? Or, as
Seneca put it, "government of the Jews, by the Jews and for the Jews."?
III.
IV.
> Waldo wrote:
>
>> "it is difficult to suggest a satisfactory reason for the prevalence
>> of Jews
>> in the Cheka ... Anyone who had the misfortune to fall into the hands
>> of Cheka stood a very good chance of finding himself confronted with,
>> and very possibly shot by, a Jewish investigator."
>>
>> [Schapiro, Leonard. The Role of Jews in the Russian Revolutionary
>> Movement. The Slavonic and East European Review. v. 40, University of
>> London ...., 1961-62 p. 165]
>
> Here is the same passage at greater length:
>
> (In the issue of Pravda for 20 December 1937 there is a list
> of 407 officials of the NKVD, decorated on the occasion of
> the 20th anniversary of the Checka. Forty-two of the names,
> or about 11 per cent, are Jews, and the actual total of Jews
> may well have been higher, since many of them may be supposed
> to have adopted Russian names. How many of these Jews survived
> the purge of 1938 is another matter.) It is dificult to suggest
> a satisfactory reason for the prevalence of Jews in the Checka.
> It may be that having suffered at the hands of the former
> Russian authorities they wanted to seize the reins of power
> in the new state for themselves. Many of the enemies of
> bolshevism, who tended to couple anti-bolshevism with
> anti-semitism, argued that bolshevism was a movement
> alien to true Russians and that it was a predominantly
> Jewish movement. The assertion is in fact untrue. In historical
> origin and in ideology bolshevism is an essentially
> Russian movement, traditional and nationalistic,
> with a very thin veneer of international socialism. But to
> the ordinary Russian in the early years of the revolution
> the argument was quite likely to appeal. For the most
> prominent and colorful figure after Lenin was Trotsky, in Petrograd
> the dominant and hated figure was Zinov'yev, while anyone
> who had the misfortune to fall inot the hands of the Checka
> stood a very good chance of finding himself confronted
> with an possibly shot by a Jewish investigator.
>
> I have a photocopy of the article.
> Do you suppose that the person who put four
> lines of this passage onto the internet
> (where you found it, Waldo)
> actually wants people to read the whole article
> and the books that the other quotes come from?
>
> Yitz
Steven Mock
Black Knight
Scot Bradbury is a nit-picker and extremely wordy. I don't think he's
Jewish, idiot. Tom Shelly is a nit-picker and very wordy.Is he Jewish,
too, idiot?
But it does you no good.
If that were true, we would all be convinced. Since most of us here
aren't, you are simply lying. You may have appointed yourself the
Ultimate Arbiter of Public Opinion, but that appointment is
authoritative only in your diseased, ignorant mind. Have you ever
heard of the First Amendment?
> The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
> facts permit of no other interpretation.
Lots of people disagree with you. You do not have the authority to
tell others what to think or say. Your precious National Socialist
Joke is not in power yet, Dickie, so we can all think and say as we
please.
>
> I am fully aware that the Jewish responsibility for the
> Bolshevik horrors seriously damages their proclaimed posture
> of Jews as innocent victims
That's a rather sweeping generalization. When have I proclaimed to be
either innocent or a victim? Which Jews have proclaimed that? Let's
see some names and some proof.
and that alone. Tough, you'll
> just have to live with it.
You may be "aware" of it, but that doesn't mean much. You are also
"aware" of vampires. You also said you are "aware" that the US
Government is not doing anything to stop illegal immigration from
Mexico, despite the fact that uniformed Border Patrol agents are
swarming all over San Diego County. When I went outside for some air
last night, one of them was parked practically on my doorstep. They
have a checkpoint for searching autos on Interstate 8 less than 30
miles from here. A few years ago, one of them stopped me to check my
driver's license. So much for your awareness.
Bruno
Richard Phillips
============================================================
Phillips
Try to reply to that which is posted. I said that wordy Jews
were the greatest nit-pickers; I did not say that they were
the only ones.
============================================================================
>
> But it does you no good.
>
> If that were true, we would all be convinced. Since most of us here
> aren't, you are simply lying.
==============================================================
Phillips
I may well be mistaken, but I am not lying. There is an
important difference, I hope you are aware of it.
=================================================================
You may have appointed yourself the
> Ultimate Arbiter of Public Opinion,
================================================
Phillips
Nope. Just another participant in this NG.
============================================
but that appointment is
> authoritative only in your diseased, ignorant mind. Have you ever
> heard of the First Amendment?
=================================================
Phillips
Many times and I will add that a question like that would be
more properly addressed to the people who are moving heaven
and earth to ram "hate speech" down the threats of the
American people.
====================================================================
>
> > The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
> > facts permit of no other interpretation.
>
> Lots of people disagree with you. You do not have the authority to
> tell others what to think or say.
================================================
Phillips
I have never claimed any such "authority."
=======================================================
Your precious National Socialist
> Joke is not in power yet, Dickie, so we can all think and say as we
> please.
> >
> > I am fully aware that the Jewish responsibility for the
> > Bolshevik horrors seriously damages their proclaimed posture
> > of Jews as innocent victims
>
> That's a rather sweeping generalization. When have I proclaimed to be
> either innocent or a victim? Which Jews have proclaimed that? Let's
> see some names and some proof.
=========================================================
Phillips
I cannot think of any Jew who has ever spoken those precise
words, However, when we look at what has been going on for
the past 50 years, we are certainly entitled to make
generalizations. We have
(1) The endless, endless, endless moans and mails about what
happened to them in Europe. 60 years after the events, they
are still cranking out books, movies, and TV films about it.
(2) The verbal, legal, and occasionally physical violence
the Jews employ against any who dare to challenge, in the
slightest degree, the precious Holoocaust story. THis is
something strange to Americans, something we have not seen
before. Sure, we have had debates and controversy and savage
ones, but we have always been content to debate our
opponents and seave it at that. We never felt the impulse to
sic the law on our opponents, never felt the need to blind
them by hurling acid in their faces (as has ben done in
France) This sort of thing is alien to us.
(3) The ignoring, minimising, and denigrating of all similar
horrors where the victims were not Jews. I am thinking
particularly of the Ukrainian Holocaust of the 1930s.
==============================================================
>
> and that alone. Tough, you'll
> > just have to live with it.
>
> You may be "aware" of it, but that doesn't mean much. You are also
> "aware" of vampires.
============================================
Phillips
I believe they exist, but I have never attempted to urge
that belief on anyone else. I have never accused anyone of
anti-vampirism.
===============================================
You also said you are "aware" that the US
> Government is not doing anything to stop illegal immigration from
> Mexico, despite the fact that uniformed Border Patrol agents are
> swarming all over San Diego County. When I went outside for some air
> last night, one of them was parked practically on my doorstep. They
> have a checkpoint for searching autos on Interstate 8 less than 30
> miles from here. A few years ago, one of them stopped me to check my
> driver's license. So much for your awareness.
================================================================
Phillips
What you have described are certain motions they are going
through in order to say they are "dealing" with the problem.
QUite possibly such motions make a deep impression on
persons like yourself; they make none whatever on me.
Why? Because they do absolutely nothing to stem the tide.
So they nab an illegal and send him back across the border.
Big Deal. He is going to try it again next week, being
careful to avoid the mistakes that got him caught
What you don't seem to realise is that the powers-that-be
have no WISH to stem the flood. Why?
--Because businessmen (eg restaurant owners) want this flood
of desperate peopre who will work for peanuts and never
cause any problems.
--Because Republican politicians have decided they are going
to court the "Hispaanic" vote.
Under National Socialism there will only be an Amerina vote.
=====================================================================
>
> Bruno
Eugene Holman
>
>
> ===============================================================
> Phillips
>
> THe world is full of nits begging to be picked and there are
> no greater pigkers than wordy Jews. But it does you no good.
> The Bolshevik Revolution WAS a Jewish enterprise; known
> facts permit of no other interpretation.
That many people of nominal Jewish ethnicity were involved is indeed
beyond dispute. But to call it a Jewish enterprise is sadly mistaken.
1. Implementable communism itself was largely the work of Friedrich
Engels, nominally a German Catholic, based on the turgid and abstract
writings of Karl Marx, a the son of a Christian family that had totally
rejected the Judaism of Karl Marx's grandfather.
2. Of the three leading figures, Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky, only one,
Trotsky (né Bronstein), was a Jew in any meaningful sense. His concept of
world revolution was overruled.
3. Bolshevisim was spitefully anti-Jewish. Since it was anti-clerical, it
treated Jewish organizations, clergy, and places of worship as badly as it
did their Christian and Moslem equivalents. Since it regarded Zionism as a
rival for the souls of activist Jews, it forbade all teaching and
publication in Ivrit. indeed, Ivrit was the only language to have been
prohibited in the Soviet Union.
4. Jews were better represented among the Bolsheviks than many other
nationalities of the Romanov empire, but this is because they were urban
and literate, unlike most nationalities of that state. The overwhelming
majority of the early Bolsheviks were Russians.
> ===============================================================
> Phillips
>
> I am fully aware that the Jewish responsibility for the
> Bolshevik horrors seriously damages their proclaimed posture
> of Jews as innocent victims and that alone. Tough, you'll
> just have to live with it.
>
> ======================================================
Jews and Jewish-owned organizations and property were some of the first
and most obvious victims of the Bolshevik horrors. The *primi motores* of
Bolshevik horrors were primarily Russians and Georgians by ethnicity, but
Bolshevism was not an ethnic or clerical movement, but rather an
ideological one.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Grantland
Eugene Holman
No you're not. And I'm not Jewish.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Patrick Keenan
news:3e60be14....@ct-news.iafrica.com...
Plainly, you are not.
-pk
Black Knight
He isn't Jewish, moron.
A500Amiga
>From: "Waldo" Wald...@hushmail.com
>Date: 2/20/03 8:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net>
>
>In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
>whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
>subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918 thru
>1940.
>
Suggested reading:
Migrations and Cultures: A World View
by Thomas Sowell
Dr.Sowell points out that historically what you say is true, but not just for
Jews.
He talks bout the Volgate Germans. They were Germans who lived in Russia. The
Russian Czars were not ethnically Russsian but were of the same family as the
French and British monarchs. In order to insulate themselves for the blame of
thei policies they placed the Germans who had a higher education level (due to
their culture) than the Russians, in all the low and mid level bureaucratic
jobs.
When they raised taxes, they would blame the German speaking "bureaucrats".
Finally the Russian people fed up with the tryanny went on a rapage and killed
over 100,000 of them.
Trotski, used the same ploy. The British largely did the same in their
colonies. Rwanda is the most recent example. The Belgians ran the country, but
to insulate themselves they set up one minority group to hold the low level
jobs. When the majority got fed up they took it out on the minority group, and
the Belgian snuck out of the country and let the genocide happen.
This is not unique to the Jews, but the Jews have been kicked out of their
land, and have had higher education levels (education is very important
culturally to Jews). They have been placed in these positions.
The only real solution to problems like this is to have Israel for the Jews.
Move all Arabs back to the Arabian pennisula, redraw the map of Africa along
tribal lines, and move everyone back to the land from whence their ancestors
came.
>Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the prominence
>of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
>
>I posted the following quote from Leon Trotsky:
>
>
>"Steven Mock" <sm...@nizkor.org> wrote in message
>news:Xns932797ED91B...@207.35.177.135...
>> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in
>> news:3e53da71$0$1...@news.impulse.net:
>>
>> > Would you care to argue with the Jew / Bolshevik / Communist Trotsky
>> > on the matter?
>> >
>> > From Leon Trotsky's Thermidor and Anti-semitism:
>> >
>> > _____________________________
>> >
>> > ". . . [N]aturally the Jews occupied a disproportionately large place
>> > among the bureaucracy and particularly so in the lower and middle
>> > levels. Of course we can close our eyes to that fact and limit
>> > ourselves to vague generalities about the equality and brotherhood of
>> > all races. But an ostrich policy will not advance us a single step.
>> > The hatred of the peasants and the workers for the bureaucracy is a
>> > fundamental fact of Soviet life. The despotism of the regime, the
>> > persecution of every critic, the stifling of every living though,
>> > finally the judicial frame-ups are merely a reflection of this basic
>> > fact. Even by a priori reasoning it is impossible not to conclude that
>> > the hatred for the bureaucracy would assume an anti-Semitic color, at
>> > least in those places where the Jewish functionaries compose a
>> > significant percentage of the population and are thrown into relief
>> > against a broad background of the peasant masses."
>> >
>> > Leon Trotsky, Feb. 22, 1937
>> > _____________________________
>>
>> You know, on second glance, this quote doesn't even say what Waldo seems
>to
>> think it says.
>
>I don't "think" it says anything other than what is *does* say, Steve. but
>apparently YOU do.
>
>> It doesn't say at all that communism was a Jewish movement, or even that
>> Jews were disproportionaly represented in the communist movement (a point
>> which I do not dispute).
>
>Given the evidence recently presented to you, how could you do otherwise?
>
>> It highlights the fact that the communists used
>> what Jews were involved with the movement and ultimately the state
>> disproportinately in lower and mid-level bureucratic positions, so that
>> hostility to the state would be funnelled against them, despite the fact
>> that they were not the ones with decision-making authority.
>
>ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Are you saying that those meanie Goyim commies *deliberately* put the poor,
>helpless and benevolent Jews in low-level bureaucratic positions so that the
>anger of the masses would be focused on the helpless JEWS rather than the
>Goys in charge???
>
>Talk about a one man orgy of Jewish victimhood!
>
>Your fantasies are really getting the better of you, Steve.
>
>> I wonder how you think this quote helps your case, Waldo.
>
>Even given your absolutely BIZARRE spin on Trotsky's statements, it sure
>isn't helping YOUR case, is it Steve.
>
>> Or did you even
>> bother to read it, figuring that just so long as it said "Jews" and
>> "communism" in the same sentence, you could make it mean whatever you
>> wanted it to mean.
>
>Well Mr. Mock, re-read Trotsky's statement above, and then view it in the
>light of what you read below. Then tell us again how those evil Goyim
>Commies used the poor, innocent, gullible Jews as the scapegoats for the
>anger of the tortured masses!
>
>
>_________________________________
>
>"Half of the six members of the politburo that was the supreme government of
>Soviet Russia in 1920 were Jews. The first head of the Soviet secret police
>was Jewish. Jews were prominent in the leadership of the Communist party in
>Germany, Hungary, and Austria. In the 1920s close to half the members of the
>small and politically insignificant American Communist party were Jewish."
>("The Sacred Chain - A History of the Jews," Norman F. Cantor,
>HarperCollins, 1995) (Dr. Cantor is the author of several books on Jewish
>history and a professor of history at New York University.)
>
>'During the heyday of the Cold War, American Jewish publicists spent a lot
>of time denying that-as 1930s anti-Semites claimed-Jews played a
>disproportionately important role in Soviet and world Communism. The truth
>is until the early 1950s. Jews did play such a role, and there is nothing to
>be ashamed of. In time, Jews will learn to take pride in the record of the
>Jewish Communists in the Soviet Union and elsewhere. It was a species of
>striking back." -- The Jewish Experience, "Stalin's Jews", pp. 364, Norman
>F. Cantor, Castle Books, 1996.
>
>"Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the first Soviet
>commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish position in the
>Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White Armies which
>opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as common
>enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336).
>
>"The Bolshevik revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish brains, of Jewish
>dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning, whose goal is to create a new order in
>the world. What was performed in so excellent a way in Russia, thanks to
>Jewish brains, and because of Jewish dissatisfaction and by Jewish planning,
>shall also, through the same Jewish mental an physical forces, become a
>reality all over the world." (The American Hebrew, September 10, 1920)
>
>"There is much in the fact of Bolshevism itself, in the fact that so many
>Jews are Bolshevists. The ideals of Bolshevism are consonant with many of
>the highest ideals of Judaism." (Jewish Chronicle, London April, 4, 1919)
>
>"You have not begun to appreciate the real depth of our guilt. We are
>intruders. We are disturbers. We are subverters. We have been at the bottom
>not merely of the latest great war but of all your wars, not only of the
>Russian but of every other major revolution in your history." (Marcus Eli
>Ravage, Century Magazine, January-February 1928).
>
>[Marcus Eli Ravage, "Commissary to the Gentiles", Century Magazine,
>January-February 1928 -W]
>
>"In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist
>party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
>population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the
>Kremlin, p. 81)
>
>[Lazar Kaganovich was the Jewish orchestrator of the great man-made
>Ukrainian famine under Stalin. Kaganovitch was responsible for the death by
>starvation of MILLIONS of Ukrainians- Waldo comment]
>
>"We [Jews] have erred, my friend, we have most grievously erred.... We who
>have posed as the saviours of the world, we who have boasted of having given
>it the Saviour, we are today nothing else but the world's seducers, its
>destroyers, its incendiaries, its executioners..." (Dr. Oscar Levy, preface
>to the book The World Significance of the Russian Revolution by Professor
>George Pitts-Rivers of Oxford University)
>
>"In 1897 was founded the Bund, the union of Jewish workers in Poland and
>Lithuania. . . They engaged in revolutionary activity upon a large scale,
>and their energy made them the spearhead of the Party" (Article on
>"Communism" by Harold J. Laski, Encyc. Brit., Vol. III, pp 824-827).
>
>"Half of the six members of the politburo that was the supreme government of
>Soviet Russia in 1920 were Jews. The first head of the Soviet secret police
>was Jewish. Jews were prominent in the leadership of the Communist party in
>Germany, Hungary, and Austria. In the 1920s close to half the members of the
>small and politically insignificant American Communist party were Jewish."
>("The Sacred Chain - A History of the Jews," Norman F. Cantor,
>HarperCollins, 1995)
>
>Like Cantor, Benjamin Ginsberg discusses the general preponderance of Jews
>among the Soviet police agencies in his 1994 book "The Fatal Embrace - Jews
>and the State": "During the 1920s and 1930s, Jews were a major element in
>the secret police and other Soviet security forces. Genrikh Yagoda, for
>instance, served as chief of the secret police during the 1930s. Yagoda had
>been a pharmacist before the Revolution and specialized in preparing poisons
>for his agents to use in liquidating Stalin's opponents."
>
>Ginsberg continues in the next paragraph by describing how Jews greatly
>expanded and organized the murderous Soviet Gulag prison system: "Other
>high-ranking Jewish secret policemen included Matvei Berman and Naftali
>Frenkel who helped to expand and institutionalize the slave labor system.
>Slave laborers working under Frenkel's supervision built the White-Sea
>Baltic Canal in 1932. As many as 200,000 workers perished while completing
>this project. Another Jewish security officer, K. V. Pauker, served as chief
>of operations of the secret police in the 1930s. Lev lnzhir was chief
>accountant for the Gulag. M. T. Gay headed the special secret police
>department that conducted the purges of the 1930s. In what came to be called
>the "Great Terror," he supervised the mass arrests, trials, and executions
>of Stalin's opponents. Two other Jewish secret policemen, A. A. Slutsky and
>Boris Berman, were in charge of Soviet terror and espionage abroad during
>the 1930s. Jews were also important in the Red Army. In addition to Trotsky,
>prominent Jewish generals included Yona Yakir, who was a member of the
>Communist party central committee; Dmitri Schmidt, a civil war hero and
>commander of the Kiev area; and Yakob Kreiser, a hero of the defense of
>Moscow during the Second World War."
>
>The Jewish Encyclopedia acknowledges the preponderance of Jews among the
>Soviet power structure and that large numbers of Russians associated Jews
>with Bolsheviks: "Whatever the racial antecedents of their top man, the
>first Soviet commissariats were largely staffed with Jews. The Jewish
>position in the Communist movement was well understood in Russia. The White
>Armies which opposed the Bolshevik government linked Jews and Bolsheviks as
>common enemies" (Univ. Jew Encyc., Vol. I, p. 336). The recent tome, "The
>Black Book of Communism", makes several references to this fact when
>mentioning the numberous anti-Soviet rebellions that occurred in the first
>three decades of Bolshevism where the people were speaking against "Jews and
>Bolsheviks." The two were essentially considered one in the same.
>
>In another book, Cantor provides confirmation of Jewish prominence in other
>important areas of the communist government: " The founders of the Soviet
>secret police (later KGB), headquartered in Lubyanka prison in Moscow, were
>mostly Jews. Jews also took leadership roles, down into the early 1950s, in
>the Communist parties of Germany, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and
>Rumania. In the struggle for succession to Lenin in the 1920s, leading to
>the defeat and exile of the Jewish Trotsky Bronstein), most of the
>high-level Soviet Jews made the mistake of supporting Stalin, an Asiatic
>anti-Semite who in the purge trials in the mid-1930s eventually eliminated
>these Jewish "Old Bolsheviks." But even to some degree after the Great
>Purge, Jews were still prevalent in powerful Soviet government positions and
>many of Stalin's cohorts in the 1940s had Jewish wives. Here is a cool
>appraisal of Stalin's Jews, published in 1994 by the Russian writer Arkady
>Vaksberg.
>
>* * *
>
>"We were told that hundreds of agitators had followed in the trail of
>Trotsky (Bronstein) these men having come over from the lower east side of
>New York. Some of them when they learned that I was the American Pastor in
>Petrograd, stepped up to me and seemed very much pleased that there was
>somebody who could speak English, and their broken English showed that they
>had not qualified as being Americas. A number of these men called on me and
>were impressed with the strange Yiddish element in this thing right from the
>beginning, and it soon became evident that more than half the agitators in
>the socalled Bolshevik movement were Jews...I have a firm conviction that
>this thing is Yiddish, and that one of its bases is found in the east side
>of New York...The latest startling information, given me by someone with
>good authority, startling information, is this, that in December, 1918, in
>the northern community of Petrograd that is what they call the section of
>the Soviet regime under the Presidency of the man known as Apfelbaum
>(Zinovieff) out of 388 members, only 16 happened to be real Russians, with
>the exception of one man, a Negro from America who calls himself Professor
>Gordon.
>
>"I was impressed with this, Senator, that shortly after the great revolution
>of the winter of 1917, there were scores of Jews standing on the benches and
>soap boxes, talking until their mouths frothed, and I often remarked to my
>sister, 'Well, what are we coming to anyway. This all looks so Yiddish.' Up
>to that time we had see very few Jews, because there was, as you know, a
>restriction against having Jews in Petrograd, but after the revolution they
>swarmed in there and most of the agitators were Jews.
>
>"I might mention this, that when the Bolshevik came into power all over
>Petrograd, we at once had a predominance of Yiddish proclamations, big
>posters and everything in Yiddish. It became very evident that now that was
>to be one of the great languages of Russia; and the real Russians did not
>take kindly to it."
>
>(Dr. George A. Simons, a former superintendent of the Methodist Missions in
>Russia, Bolshevik Propaganda Hearing Before the Sub-Committee of the
>Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, 65th Congress)
>
>* * *
>__________________________
>
>Of course, even in the face of the above, and all of the other evidence that
>has been presented to you by others, now and in the past, you are STILL free
>to pooh-pooh the idea that Jews played an EXTREMELY important role in
>Bolshevism and subsequent Soviet / Eastern European Communism.
>
>Indeed, you would be derelict in you duties as a Semitist if you did NOT
>continue to deny the blood that is on the hands of the Communist Jews - many
>of which went on to become important political figures in Israel - and no
>doubt had a strong influence in shaping Israel into the cruel MONSTER that
>it is today.
Richard Phillips
=============================================================
Phillips
(1) Let me see. Here we are on page 336 and have entries for
"Anigonus," "Antigonus," "Anti-Lebanon," etc. In other
words, already on page 336 and we're still not past the A's.
A most unusual encyclopaedia - or an unbelievably large one.
(2) Waldo says certain things are on page 336 and you say
they aren't. Now I can see various possibilities here.
--Is it possible that you two were looking at diferent
EDITIONS fo the book?
--Is it possible that Waldo got thos quotes from some OTHER
book?
Did you puh these questions to Waldo in a civil manne or did
you find it more expedient to just call him a liar?
=====================================================================
===========================================================
Phillips
Well, this is interesting. Mr. Landman sets out to refute
the accusation of Jewish predominence in the Bolshevist
movement. To this end, he cites percentages. Having done
that he shoots his own position down by pointing out
(a) That Jews were, to an overwhesming degree, more literate
(b) That the Jews lived almost entirely in th cities.
I love debating people like that.
==================================================================
>
> "Much is made of the fact that during the first years of the Soviet regime
> Jews were among the outstanding leaders of the Russian Communist party.
> Because Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Radek, Litinov and others were Jews, it
> was inferred that the Jews controlled the party and the government... In
> reality, Jewish intellectuals were conspicuously identified with the
> Social-Democratic Mensheviks (Abrahamovich, Axelrod, Dan, Liber, Martov)
> who were bitterly opposed to the Bolshevik regime, also with the Social-
> Revolutionaries (Gershuni, Gotz) who were the stringest party backing the
> constitutional Kerensky regime; and with the moderate bourgeois-liberal
> Constitutional Democrats, headed by professor Milyukov, who was assisted by
> such extremely able leaders of Jewish origin as Vinaver, Herzenstein and
> othe brotehrs Hessen and others...
======================================================
Phillips
All he has told us here is that Jews who inclined leftwards
were not ENTIRELY Bolsheviks. So what else is new and
exciting?
================================================================
>
> "As time went on and a new generation of potential leaders was growing up
> in Russia under entirely different circumstances, the importance of the
> pre-War leaders of Jewish descent was bound to decrease.
============================================================
Phillips
I believe this is true.
====================================================================
In the struggle
> for power within the party between the "Opposition" headed by Trotsky,
> Zinoviev and Kamenev on the one hand and the Stalin-Bukharin-Rykov majority
> faction on the other, the latter used agaisnt the former arguments of a
> veiled anti-Semitic nature... After the complete destruction of all
> opposition within the party, sealed by the extermination of the entire
> Bolshevik "Old Guard" during the purges of 1936 to 1938, most of the old
> time leaders and executives of Jewish origin disappeared. The only
> prominent Jews of the older generation who remained in the Party are Emil
> Yaroslavsky, the leader of the "Godless" movement, and Maxim Litvinov, who
> was "liquidated" as a diplomat shortly before the Moscow-Berlin pact of
> August, 1939. Lazar Kaganovich, the only outstanding figure of Jewish
> descent in the Communist leadership (1940), belongs to the younger
> generation that grew up after the Revolution. Since the liquidation of all
> oppositionists, Kaganovich has been the only Jewish member of the Political
> Bureau, the supreme organ of the party and the virtual super-government of
> Russia."
=============================================================
Phillips
I also believe this is roughly true.
================================
>
> Now whether Waldo wishes to take the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia as a
> reliable source is up to him (though one should note that he was willing to
> do so when he thought it served his case). The point, simply, is that this
> source does not say what he claimed it said. On the contrary, it asserts
> precisely the opposite.
================================================================
Phillips
At this point I have to ask: just what is your object?
--Is it to refute Waldo's claim that Jews had a very very
prominint role in the Bolshevik Revolution ... or
--Is it to show that he was not sufficiently meticulous in
his choic of sourc materials.
=======================================================================================
>
> II.
>
> Waldo quotes Start Kahan's book on Lazar Kaganovich as follows:
>
> "In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet communist
> party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of the total
> population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich), The Wolf of the
> Kremlin, p. 81)
>
> Though presented as a direct quote, this line does not, in fact, appear in
> the text. What does appear is this: "That Trotsky, unquestionably the most
> outstanding man among the Bolsheviks, was a Jew did not seem an insuperable
> obstance in a party in which the percentage of Jews, 52 percent, was rather
> high compared to the percentage of Jews (1.8 percent) in the total
> population."
>
> Though the content is roughly the same the difference is not trival. The
> purpose of the line was not to assert the extent of Jewish dominance over
> the communist party (as the misquote makes it appear) but merely to explain
> why Jews like Trotsky and Kaganovich had the impression that the party gave
> them reasonable opportunity for advancement.
================================================================
Phillips
I see. Your accusation against Waldo is no longer that he is
a liar but only that his interpretation of certain subtle
nuances is not the same as your own.
================================================
In light of this fact - and
> the fact that two different sources have now been provided confirming that
> the percentage of Jews in the party during this period was in fact *5.2%*
> to the 1.8% of the general population, it is pretty darn clear that this is
> a misprint. Otherwise, Kahan's comment that this percentage was "rather
> high" is the understatement of the year. Does Waldo expect us to believe
> that a party that was only 2.6% Jewish in 1918 managed to recruit nearly
> 200,000 Jews before 1922, only to have their Jewish membership *drop* to
> 45,000 in 1924?
>
> Waldo goes on to offer his own commentary on Lazar Kaganovich:
>
> "[Lazar Kaganovich was the Jewish orchestrator of the great man-made
> Ukrainian famine under Stalin. Kaganovitch was responsible for the death by
> starvation of MILLIONS of Ukrainians- Waldo comment]"
>
> Kaganovich was certainly a monster, and indeed he was Jewish. And I
> suppose these are the only pieces of information that Waldo wants you to
> know. But what Waldo doesn't tell you - which his source goes into
> extensively - is the fact that Kaganovich was also one of the most
> loathsome and fanatical anti-Semites of the Soviet regime, personally
> responsible for orchestrating the purges, arrests and murders of Jews and
> the repression of Jewish organizations in the Soviet Union. He was
> adamently opposed to the formation of the State of Israel, and Kahan states
> quite bluntly on several occasions that - contrary to Waldo's other
> assertions - during this time he was the "sole Jew in [Stalin's]
> hierarchy."(cf. preface, pp. 14-15, 249)
==================================================================
Phillips
I'd say you're one of the best men on WALDO'S side. I hope
he appreciates it.
=============================================
>
> Take, for example, the following discussion of Kaganovich's activities in
> the 1930's:
=========================================================
Phillips
Let me give you a tip. If you really want to trash someone
on this NG you must
(a) Make your accusations much more dramatic that you have
made yours
(b) Make them much briefer. The world is deluged with
printed information all of it demanding our iwwediate
attention. Even if I had WISHED to see Waldo trashed, I
would not have had the patience to digest your tome in its
entirety.
=================================================
Steven Mock
> Steven Mock wrote:
10+1 volumes.
> (2) Waldo says certain things are on page 336 and you say
> they aren't. Now I can see various possibilities here.
>
> --Is it possible that you two were looking at diferent
> EDITIONS fo the book?
>
> --Is it possible that Waldo got thos quotes from some OTHER
> book?
Waldo specifically cited the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1939-1943).
Which is to say, not The Jewish encyclopedia (1901-06), The Standard Jewish
encyclopedia (1966), The New standard Jewish encyclopedia, (1977), or the
Encyclopedia of Judaism (1999).
If there is another (apparently shorter) edition in which this text
appears, my best efforts have failed to locate it.
> Did you puh these questions to Waldo in a civil manne or did
> you find it more expedient to just call him a liar?
Either he lied, or he cut and pasted items from a source that invents
quotes. That was my only point.
<snip>
How does that shoot down his point? On the contrary, it casts the fact
that Jews were disproportionately involved in the communist movement in an
entirely different light. Clearly, there are circumstantial factors that
account for the discrepency. It is not evidence that communism was
actually some kind of Jewish plot.
>> "Much is made of the fact that during the first years of the Soviet
>> regime Jews were among the outstanding leaders of the Russian
>> Communist party. Because Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamenev, Radek, Litinov
>> and others were Jews, it was inferred that the Jews controlled the
>> party and the government... In reality, Jewish intellectuals were
>> conspicuously identified with the Social-Democratic Mensheviks
>> (Abrahamovich, Axelrod, Dan, Liber, Martov) who were bitterly opposed
>> to the Bolshevik regime, also with the Social- Revolutionaries
>> (Gershuni, Gotz) who were the stringest party backing the
>> constitutional Kerensky regime; and with the moderate
>> bourgeois-liberal Constitutional Democrats, headed by professor
>> Milyukov, who was assisted by such extremely able leaders of Jewish
>> origin as Vinaver, Herzenstein and othe brotehrs Hessen and others...
>
> ======================================================
> Phillips
>
> All he has told us here is that Jews who inclined leftwards
> were not ENTIRELY Bolsheviks. So what else is new and
> exciting?
Did I say it was new and exciting? The point is that if Jews were involved
enthusiastically in ALL political movements that would have them, why does
their involvement in one such movement have any sinister connotations? Why
are they blamed for being behind the Bolshevik seizure of power, and not
being behind the forces that opposed it (in which they were no less
represented)?
>> Now whether Waldo wishes to take the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia as
>> a reliable source is up to him (though one should note that he was
>> willing to do so when he thought it served his case). The point,
>> simply, is that this source does not say what he claimed it said. On
>> the contrary, it asserts precisely the opposite.
>
> ================================================================
> Phillips
>
> At this point I have to ask: just what is your object?
>
> --Is it to refute Waldo's claim that Jews had a very very
> prominint role in the Bolshevik Revolution ... or
No. As I have said repeatedly, I do not dispute this assertion. From the
beginning, all I was disputing was the extrapolation of this simple fact
into the claim articulated by Seneca and defended by Waldo that "communism
was a Jewish movement". The fact that some Jews were involved, even
prominently, in certain manifestations of the movement does not a Jewish
movement make.
> --Is it to show that he was not sufficiently meticulous in
> his choic of sourc materials.
Basically, yes. He is willing to both lie and promulgate the lies of
others in order to exaggerate the role of Jews in the communist movement in
order to make it appear to mean something it does not.
>> Waldo quotes Start Kahan's book on Lazar Kaganovich as follows:
>>
>> "In the Bolshevik era, 52 percent of the membership of the Soviet
>> communist party was Jewish, though Jews comprised only 1.8 percent of
>> the total population." (Stuart Kahan (grandson of Lazar Kagaonvich),
>> The Wolf of the Kremlin, p. 81)
>>
>> Though presented as a direct quote, this line does not, in fact,
>> appear in the text. What does appear is this: "That Trotsky,
>> unquestionably the most outstanding man among the Bolsheviks, was a
>> Jew did not seem an insuperable obstance in a party in which the
>> percentage of Jews, 52 percent, was rather high compared to the
>> percentage of Jews (1.8 percent) in the total population."
>>
>> Though the content is roughly the same the difference is not trival.
>> The purpose of the line was not to assert the extent of Jewish
>> dominance over the communist party (as the misquote makes it appear)
>> but merely to explain why Jews like Trotsky and Kaganovich had the
>> impression that the party gave them reasonable opportunity for
>> advancement.
>
> ================================================================
> Phillips
>
> I see. Your accusation against Waldo is no longer that he is
> a liar but only that his interpretation of certain subtle
> nuances is not the same as your own.
No. He presented a paraphrase as a direct quote. Or at least his source
did.
And it goes a lot further than that. You see, the very centerpiece of
Waldo's argument is that he quotes Jews who support it. These Jews, he
claims, openly bragged about the fact that they were behind communism, and
therefore it is only out of a sneaky disingenuousness that others Jews
today deny it.
The problem is, Waldo has to lie in order to make it appear as though it is
or ever was in any way normative for Jews to proudly claim responsibility
for the Bolshevik movement. And I don't just mean by reproducing the
misquotes of misrepresentations of others (which he does frequently), who
falsely attribute certain words to Jews, or who cut and paste phrases to
create a message opposite of what the author intended. He also actively
makes up facts himself.
Take for example the comment he made to Philip Mathews about the attuitude
of Stuart Kahan to the subject of his biography, Lazar Kaganovich:
"It should be noted that Kahan was NOT ashamed of Kaganovich (his
grandfather), but was PROUD of his accomplishments, his only regret being
that, as a result of grandpa's exploits, Jews occasionally suffered."
Note that these are Waldo's own words, not someone else's. As though he
himself actually read the book and missed the number of times Kahan refers
to his uncle as a "monster". Or, in the words that *Waldo himself* posted
*the very next day* (in another collection of quotes designed to prove that
communism is Jewish) Kahan is quoted as saying that Kaganovich was:
"to put it mildly, a devil. That relative exuded evil, an evil that put
millions of people to death... [KAHAN, S., p. 5]"
Let's look again at what Waldo said the previous day: "It should be noted
that Kahan was NOT ashamed of Kaganovich (his grandfather), but was PROUD
of his accomplishments, his only regret being that, as a result of
grandpa's exploits, Jews occasionally suffered."
To Kahan: "he was, to put it mildly, a devil. That relative exuded evil, an
evil that put millions of people to death..."
Any questions?
In what way? The only Jews who participated in the Bolshevik movement were
those who were willing to persecute Judaism in all of its forms. Which
shows that they hardly joined the movement for its "Jewishness", did they?
> =============================================
>>
>> Take, for example, the following discussion of Kaganovich's
>> activities in the 1930's:
>
> =========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Let me give you a tip. If you really want to trash someone
> on this NG you must
>
> (a) Make your accusations much more dramatic that you have
> made yours
>
> (b) Make them much briefer. The world is deluged with
> printed information all of it demanding our iwwediate
> attention. Even if I had WISHED to see Waldo trashed, I
> would not have had the patience to digest your tome in its
> entirety.
But I like to think that I'm not engaged in a mere propaganda effort, Mr.
Phillips. And getting at the truth often involves a lot of careful thought
and analysis. That is, I believe, one of the best weapons that the anti-
Semites have going for them. Slogans that appeal to base hatred are much
easier to digest than the analysis required to pick them apart, and guys
like Waldo can cut 'n paste made-up facts from hate-sites a lot faster and
more easily than I can look them up one-by-one to prove them fraudulant.
But I've made the effort, and I have so proven. While this might not
interest you, I think even you will find it hard to dispute that I have
proven that Waldo - or at least the sources he so blindly believes - lie in
order to support and spread their prejudices.
Richard Phillips
=============================================
Phillips
I was speaking strictly of Volume 1 - though I ought to have
made that more clear.
=======================================================================
Richard Phillips
=====================================================================
Phillips
Because that was the movement that prevailed (Bolshevism)
and because of the horrors that that movement inflicted on
the Russian people.
====================================================
Why
> > are they blamed for being behind the Bolshevik seizure of power, and not
> > being behind the forces that opposed it (in which they were no less
> > represented)?
=================================================
Phillips
The Jews would love to evade responsibility for what they
did, but it won't work. They did it.
==============================================================================
> >
> > >> Now whether Waldo wishes to take the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia as
> > >> a reliable source is up to him (though one should note that he was
> > >> willing to do so when he thought it served his case). The point,
> > >> simply, is that this source does not say what he claimed it said. On
> > >> the contrary, it asserts precisely the opposite.
> > >
> > > ================================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > At this point I have to ask: just what is your object?
> > >
> > > --Is it to refute Waldo's claim that Jews had a very very
> > > prominint role in the Bolshevik Revolution ... or
> >
> > No. As I have said repeatedly, I do not dispute this assertion. From the
> > beginning, all I was disputing was the extrapolation of this simple fact
> > into the claim articulated by Seneca and defended by Waldo that "communism
> > was a Jewish movement". The fact that some Jews were involved, even
> > prominently, in certain manifestations of the movement does not a Jewish
> > movement make.
========================================================
Phillips
No one is ever going to PROVE that Bolshevism was a Jewish
enterprise, but there are strong reasons for believing that
it was.
(1) The murder of the Czar and his family mas ordered by a
Jew and carried out entirely by Jews (the Ekaterinburg
Soviet). Noww, admittedly, European history is rife with
instances of regicide committed in order to clear the way
for someone else to take the "job," but this masacre of an
entire family is quite another thing. It smells too much of
vengeance - racial vengeance, perhaps? The ADL seems to
think so. Why is it that they protested so strongly to the
Russian government for their merely daring to research the
matter. It's obvious that somebody has something to hide.
(2) Once Bolshevik power became a fact, there was an odd
re-emigration of hundreds of New York-based Russian Jews,
hungry for posts there. Just exactly what led them to
believe that those posts would be theirs just for the
asking?
====================================================================================
> >
> > > --Is it to show that he was not sufficiently meticulous in
> > > his choic of sourc materials.
> >
> > Basically, yes. He is willing to both lie and promulgate the lies of
> > others in order to exaggerate the role of Jews in the communist movement in
> > order to make it appear to mean something it does not.
=============================================
Phillips
Can the Jewish role BE "exaggerated?"
===========================================================
=====================================================================
Phillips
Being Jewish is a fact of one's birth - an ineradicable
fact. It is in no wise affected by a Jew ceasing to practice
the Jewish religion; neither is it affected by his
converting to the Catholic religion.
THe Bolshevist Jews were., overwhelmingly, secular Jews.
Just what hapened to the synagogues under Bolshevism I do
not know, but I do know that Jewish cultural life got a big
boost.
They DID join the Bolshevist movement for its Jewishness
because BBolsheevism was a war not only against capitalism
but against the formerly Aryan ruling power in Russia.
===============================================================
Richard Phillips
=================================================
Phillips
Say whatever you like about Waldo, the fact remains that any
man who runs Chihauhau dogs through a document shredder
can't be ALL bad.
================================================================
Steven Mock
> Richard Phillips wrote:
>
>> > > All he has told us here is that Jews who inclined leftwards
>> > > were not ENTIRELY Bolsheviks. So what else is new and
>> > > exciting?
>> >
>> > Did I say it was new and exciting? The point is that if Jews were
>> > involved enthusiastically in ALL political movements that would
>> > have them, why does their involvement in one such movement have any
>> > sinister connotations?
>
> Phillips
>
> Because that was the movement that prevailed (Bolshevism)
> and because of the horrors that that movement inflicted on
> the Russian people.
Fascinating logic. Any movement that conquers and committs atrocities
(even, it should be noted, against Jews) is a Jewish movement by virtue of
its having Jews in it. But movements that are defeated, or that don't
perpetrate horrors, are obviously not Jewish movements, even if they have
an equal or greater proportion of Jewish members and leaders and better
serve particularly Jewish interests.
>> > Why
>> > are they blamed for being behind the Bolshevik seizure of power,
>> > and not being behind the forces that opposed it (in which they were
>> > no less represented)?
>
> =================================================
> Phillips
>
> The Jews would love to evade responsibility for what they
> did, but it won't work. They did it.
Those particular Jews who committed crimes should no doubt bear
responsibility for what they did. But that does not justify blaming it on
some corporate entity, the vast majority of whom either had nothing
whatsoever to do with it, or even suffered as a result of it.
Is that you're evidence? If so, I suppose you'll be amazed to hear that
this is, in fact, completely untrue. To quote another text that I cited in
my refutation of Waldo's fabrications:
"It was the same reasoning that led to portreying the vicious murder of the
tsar's family in Ekaterinburg in 1918 as the work of Jews, even tjough the
vast majority of the executioners were Russian. Inflamed anti-Semites
proclaimed one of the main organizers - chairman of the executive committe
of the Urals Soviet, twenty-seven year old Alexander Beloborodov - to be
the Jew Weisbrot, even though Oleg Platonov, a leading contemporary exposer
of "Jewish crimes", has been forced to admit that "research in the archives
does not support this version". In their desire to find Jewish roots for
Beloborodov, some people gave his father's name as Grigori (which is common
in Jewish families) when it was actually Georgy."(Arkady Vaksberg,
"Stalin's Jews". In Cantor, Castle Books, 1996. pp. 365-366)
> (2) Once Bolshevik power became a fact, there was an odd
> re-emigration of hundreds of New York-based Russian Jews,
> hungry for posts there. Just exactly what led them to
> believe that those posts would be theirs just for the
> asking?
"Hundreds" is hardly a flood. I'm sure there was a re-imgration of many
Bolshevik exiles of many different ethnic backgrounds from many different
places. Their earlier prominence in the movement (which was perhaps the
very reason why they were reluctant to return until power changed hands)
could well be the reason why the expected opportunities. Trotsky, after
all, was among that number.
>> > > ==================================================================
>> > > Phillips
>> > >
>> > > I'd say you're one of the best men on WALDO'S side. I hope
>> > > he appreciates it.
>> >
>> > In what way? The only Jews who participated in the Bolshevik
>> > movement were those who were willing to persecute Judaism in all of
>> > its forms. Which shows that they hardly joined the movement for
>> > its "Jewishness", did they?
>
> =====================================================================
> Phillips
>
> Being Jewish is a fact of one's birth - an ineradicable
> fact. It is in no wise affected by a Jew ceasing to practice
> the Jewish religion; neither is it affected by his
> converting to the Catholic religion.
>
> THe Bolshevist Jews were., overwhelmingly, secular Jews.
Only if you're a racist is one's cultural identity a determinant of birth.
I will grant that being a Jew is not exclusively a matter of religious
faith, but nor is it a biological endowment. Don't you recognize that
there might be some middle ground here? To be a part of the Jewish group,
one must identify as such. The Bolsheviks didn't.
The Bolshevist Jews were not only secular, they were fundamentally opposed
to any form of particularist Jewish identity. They saw themselves as
communists first and only, as evidenced by the fact that Jewish Bolsheviks
tended to be more fanatical in their persecution of Judaism than non-Jewish
ones. Judaism was something they wanted to erase, as fanatically as they
wanted to escape their own Jewish identity.
> Just what hapened to the synagogues under Bolshevism I do
> not know, but I do know that Jewish cultural life got a big
> boost.
<Quoting once again from Paul Johnson. A History of the Jews. Harper
Perennial, 1987 [pp.452-454]>
... In August 1919, all Jewish religious communities were dissolved, their
property confiscated and the overwhelming majority of synagogues shut for
ever. The study of Hebrew and the publication of secular works in Hebrew
were banned. Yiddish printing was permitted, but only in phonetic
transcription, and Yiddish culture, though tolerated for a time, was placed
under careful supervision. The supervising agency consisted of special
Jewish sections, Yevsektsiya, set up in the Communist Party branches,
manned by Non-Jewish Jews, whose specific task was to stamp out any sign of
'Jewish cultural particularism'. They broke up the Bund, then set about
destroying Russian Zionism. In 1917 it had become by far the strongest
political feature of Russian Jewry, with 300,000 members and 1,200
branches. It was much stronger, numerically, than the Bolsheviks
themselves. From 1919 onwards, the Yevsektsiya attacked Zionists
frontally, using Cheka units commanded by Non-Jewish Jews. In Leningrad
they took over the Zionist central headquarters, arresting its stadd and
closing down its paper. They did the same in Moscow. In April 1920, the
all-Russian Zionist Congress was broken up by a Cheka squad led by a Jewish
girl, who had seventy-five of the delegates arrested. From 1920 onwards,
many thousands of Russian Zionists were in the camps, from which few ever
emegred. The Zionist Party, said the regime (26 August 1922), 'under the
mask of democracy, seeks to corrupt Jewish youth and to throw them into the
arism of the counter-revolutionary bourgeoisie in the interests of Anglo-
French capitalism. To restore the Palestine state, these representatives
of the Jewish bourgeoisie rely on reactionary forces [including] such
rapacious imperalists as Poincare, Lloyd George and the Pope.'
Once Stalin, who was deeply anti-Semitic, took power, the pressure on the
Jews increased, and by the end of the 1920s all forms of specifically
Jewish activity had been destroyed or emasculated. He then dissolved the
Yevsektsiya, leaving supervision of the Jews to the secret police. By this
time, Jews had been eliminated fron nearly all senior posts in the regime,
and anti-Semitism was once more a powerful force within the party. 'Is it
true,' wrote Trotsky in range and astonishment to Bukharin, 4 March 1926,
'is it possible, that in our party, in Moscow, in Workers' Cells, anti-
Semitic agitation should be carried out with impunity?' Not with impunity:
with encouragement. Jews, especially within the Communist Party, were to
constitute a wholly disproportionate percentage of Stalin's victims.
<end quote>
Yitzchak Goodman
>
>
> ========================================================
> Phillips
>
> No one is ever going to PROVE that Bolshevism was a Jewish
> enterprise
Someone may prove that it is a Goyish one, however.
Here is the list again with improvements:
The following list of major Gentile Communist figures
was compiled for satiric purposes, but I tried to make
it as accurate as possible.
So here it is: an answer to all the net-Nazis
who try to convince us that the major Communist figures
were "mainly" or "mostly" or "almost exclusively" Jewish.
What follows contains no polemic, but only facts
(aside from a few snide observations). So
without further ado, the list that pushes back
the last frontier of ignorance, the list of
COMMIE GOYIM!!!!!!!
Engels (Never forget that Das Kapital was written in German
by two guys named Karl and Friedrich.)
Lenin (5th on Rudolph Rummel's list of the "20th Century's Bloodiest
Murderers" http://www.freedomsnest.com/rummel_murderers.html)
Stalin (Most blood-stained person who ever lived, #1 on Rummel's list)
Felix Dzerzhinsky (Founder, in 1918, of the Checka secret police agency,
precursor organization of the GPU, OGPU, NKVD, and KGB)
Vyacheslav Rudolfovich Menzhinsky (Succeeded Dzerzhinsky in 1926)
Nikolai Bukharin (Major Bolshevik theoretician, Politburo Member,
Editor of Pravda)
Lev Borisovich Kamenev (Member of the Original Politburo,
Often mistakenly identified as a Jew although mother was non-Jew,
Originally sided with Stalin and Zinoviev against Trotsky but
forced out by Stalin along with Zinoviev in 1926)
Anatoli Vasilyevich Lunacharsky (Revolutionary, Literary Figure,
Commissar of Education 1917–29)
Georgi Vasilyevich Chicherin (Foreign Comissar/Minister,
succeeding Trotsky, until 1928)
Lavrenti Beria (Head of Soviet Secret Police from 1938 until
Stalin's Death, Deputy Premier under Malenkov)
Nikolai Yezhov (Beria's predecessor, head of NKVD under Stalin,
1936-1938 wave of terror known as "Yezhovshchina")
Nikolai Bulganin (Defense Minister under Stalin, briefly
succeeded Malenkov as Premier)
Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev
Vyacheslav Mikhailovich Molotov (Chairman of the Council of People's
Commissars, then Foreign Minister, negotiated non-agression pact
between Soviets and Nazi Germany)
Georgi Maksimilianovich Malenkov (Politburo member, Deputy Premier
under Stalin, briefly succeeded Stalin as Premier)
Aleksey Ivanovich Rykov (Premier from 1924-1931, sided with Stalin
against Zinoviev, Kamenev, and Trotsky)
Mikhail Tomsky (Another major figure in the power struggles that
eventually led to the consolidation of Stalin's power)
Kliment Voroshilov (Politburo member under Stalin)
Mikhail Kalinin (Politburo member under Stalin)
Sergei Kirov (Politburo member under Stalin)
Bogdan Kobulov (Deputy head of NKVD under Beria, with Serov oversaw
deportation of Crimean Tartars)
Ivan Aleksandrovich Serov (Deputy Head of NKVD along with Kobulov,
Head of KGB 1954-1958)
Vsevolod Nikolayevich Merkulov (Head of NKGB 1941-1946, briefly head
of MGB in 1946)
Viktor Semyonovich Abakumov (Head of MGB 1946-1951, Another of
Beria's major aides)
Sergey Ogoltsov (Head of MGB July 14 1951 - August 9 1951)
Semyon Denisovich Ignatiyev (Head of MGB 1951-1953)
Aleksandr Nikolayevich Shelepin (Head of KGB 1958-1961,
Supported Khrushchev's rise to power and was also involved
in his removal)
Vladimir Yefimovich Semichastniy (Head of KGB 1961-1967,
Also heavily involved in Khrushchev's removal)
Vitaliy Vasilyevich Fedorchuk (Head of KGB May 26 1982 - December 17 1982)
Viktor Mikhaylovich Chebrikov (Head of KGB 1982-1988)
Vladimir Aleksandrovich Kryuchkov (Head of KGB 1988-1991)
(Source for NKGB, MGB, KGB entries: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB ,
also The State Within a State: The KGB and Its Hold on Russia--Past, Present,
and Future By Yevgenia Albats, New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 1994)
Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev
Alexei Nikolayevich Kosygin (Succeeded Khrushchev as Premier in 1964,
initially shared power with Brezhnev although power later declined)
Yuri Vladimirovich Andropov (Head of KGB 1967-1982, General Secretary
of Communist Party 1982-1984)
See: http://edwardjayepstein.com/archived/andropov.htm
Konstantin Chernenko
Josip Broz Tito (9th on Rummel's list of "20th
Century's Bloodiest Murderers")
Aleksandar Rankovic (Tito's second in command 1948-1966)
Vulko Chervenkov (Dictator of Bulgaria 1950-1956)
Todor Zhikov (Dictator of Bulgaria 1956-1989)
Mao Tse-Tung (2nd on Rummel's list)
Ho Chi Minh
Wang Hongwen
Yao Wenyuan
Zhang Chunqiao
Erich Honecker (Succeeded Ulbricht)
Fidel Castro
Otto Vilgelmovich Kuusinen (Finnish communist, exiled
to the USSR after Finnish independence was consolidated
following WW I and the civil war that ensued, headed failed
Soviet-supported bogus Terijojki government after Soviet
attack on USSR in 1939, eventually rose to be the only
foreign-born member of the Soviet Politburo.)
Hertta Kuusinen (Finnish communist leader, Otto's
daughter. gave a notorious speech in 1948 shortly after
the communist take-over in Czechoslovakia in which she
stated "Czechoslovakia's way will be our way.")
Antanas Snieckus (Grand old man of Lithuanian communism,
lived in exile in the USSR, but tried repeatedly to subvert
the Lithuanian state. Lithuanian Communist Party head after
the country was incorporatedinto the USSR. Defied Moscow
and built his own brand of Lithuanian communism.)
Anastas Ivanovich Mikoyan (Armenian Communist Party head,
Chairman of the USSR Supreme Soviet Presidium,
Politburo member.)
Arvid Yanovich Pelshe (Latvian Communist Party head, head
of the Soviet Communist Party Control Committee and responsible
for internal migration policies, including deportations,
ethnic dilutions, and policies leading
to de facto Russification of non-Russian republics)
Mikhail Andreyevich Suslov (Ideological watchdog maintaining purity of
communist doctrine, Politburo member.)
Angela Davis (Civil rights activist and philosopher, Gus Hall's
vice-presidential candidate when he ran for the American presidency in
1972.)
Renato Curcio (Red Brigades)
Alberto Franceschini (Red Brigades)
Mario Moretti (Red Brigades, negotiated mutual aid pact with PLO)
Do Muoi (Became General Secretary of Vietnamese Communist Party in 1991)
Le Kha Phieu (Became General Secretary of Vietnamese
Communist Party in 1997)
Nong Duc Manh (Current General Secretary of Vietnamese Commuunist Party)
Ilich Ramirez Sanchez, "Carlos the Jackal"
Ernesto Che Guevara
George Habash, PFLP
Wadi Haddad, PFLP
Leila Khaled, PFLP
*****************************************************************
Hope you enjoyed it,
Yitz
Richard Phillips
======================================================
Phillips
Most impressive but it does NOTHING to erase the fact of the
horrors the Jewish Bolshevists inflicted on the Russian
people and nation. The Jews did it; the Jews are stuck with
it.
=====================================
Richard Phillips
Steven Mock wrote:
>
> Richard Phillips <rgp...@mbay.net> wrote in
> news:3E6227EC...@mbay.net:
>
> > Richard Phillips wrote:
> >
> >> > > All he has told us here is that Jews who inclined leftwards
> >> > > were not ENTIRELY Bolsheviks. So what else is new and
> >> > > exciting?
> >> >
> >> > Did I say it was new and exciting? The point is that if Jews were
> >> > involved enthusiastically in ALL political movements that would
> >> > have them, why does their involvement in one such movement have any
> >> > sinister connotations?
> >
> > Phillips
> >
> > Because that was the movement that prevailed (Bolshevism)
> > and because of the horrors that that movement inflicted on
> > the Russian people.
>
> Fascinating logic. Any movement that conquers and committs atrocities
> (even, it should be noted, against Jews) is a Jewish movement by virtue of
> its having Jews in it.
======================================================================
Phillips
Not necessarily. It would depend on the number and
collective influence of the mnority undr question.
===============================
But movements that are defeated, or that don't
> perpetrate horrors, are obviously not Jewish movements, even if they have
> an equal or greater proportion of Jewish members and leaders and better
> serve particularly Jewish interests.
>
> >> > Why
> >> > are they blamed for being behind the Bolshevik seizure of power,
=======================================================
Phillips
Because they were.
========================
> >> > and not being behind the forces that opposed it (in which they were
> >> > no less represented)?
=========================================================
Phillips
Because the fact that Jews were in non-Bolshevist factions
does not change the fact of what was done by the Jews in the
Bolshevist faction.
===============================================
> >
> > =================================================
> > Phillips
> >
> > The Jews would love to evade responsibility for what they
> > did, but it won't work. They did it.
>
> Those particular Jews who committed crimes should no doubt bear
> responsibility for what they did. But that does not justify blaming it on
> some corporate entity, the vast majority of whom either had nothing
> whatsoever to do with it, or even suffered as a result of it.
=================================================================
Phillips
The things that happened in Russia would not justify mass
reprisal against all of their Jews (although snomething like
that could very well happen). They do, however, stand as an
unspoken warning to the leaders of any country which does
not presently have Jews in it. DON'T LET THEM IN. THEY ARE
TROUBLE.
========================================================================
=============================================================
Phillips
THen the sole basis for your exculpation of the Jews in this
matter aer the disputed origins of this man Beloborodov?
==============================================================
================================
Phillips
I am one.
========================================
is one's cultural identity a determinant of birth.
======================================================
Phillips
Generally speaking, it IS for a Jew.
===========================================
> I will grant that being a Jew is not exclusively a matter of religious
> faith, but nor is it a biological endowment. Don't you recognize that
> there might be some middle ground here? To be a part of the Jewish group,
> one must identify as such. The Bolsheviks didn't.
==================================================================
Phillips
THere are different ways of "identfying." it can be done
publicly or it can be done silently. But be in no doubt:
religion or no religion: THe Bolshies did so identify.
============================================================
>
> The Bolshevist Jews were not only secular, they were fundamentally opposed
> to any form of particularist Jewish identity. They saw themselves as
> communists first and only, as evidenced by the fact that Jewish Bolsheviks
> tended to be more fanatical in their persecution of Judaism than non-Jewish
> ones. Judaism was something they wanted to erase, as fanatically as they
> wanted to escape their own Jewish identity.
===========================================================
Phillips
Has it occurred to you that there may be a down-to-earth,
common-sense reason for that. That, to the extent that Jews
were identifiable AS Jews, it would necessarily weaken their
claims to power in a country with very strong anti-Jewish
traditions. I don't know if this was the case; I am only
throwing you a bone to chew on.
=====================================================
Philip Mathews
No, the Bolsheviks did it. Most of them were not Jews, but were Russian,
Latvians, Poles and many others. But the responsibility for their actions
rest with the individuals involved, not some extraneous group they happen to
belong to.
--
Philip Mathews
"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even supposing
knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be content to be
ignorant than would take even a little trouble to acquire it."
Samuel Johnson
Yitzchak Goodman
>
> Yitzchak Goodman wrote:
> >
> > Richard Phillips <rgp...@mbay.net> wrote in message news:<3E6227EC...@mbay.net>...
> > >
> > >
> > > ========================================================
> > > Phillips
> > >
> > > No one is ever going to PROVE that Bolshevism was a Jewish
> > > enterprise
> >
> > Someone may prove that it is a Goyish one, however.
> > Here is the list again with improvements:
> >
> > The following list of major Gentile Communist figures
[snip]
> ======================================================
> Phillips
>
> Most impressive but it does NOTHING to erase the fact of the
> horrors the Jewish Bolshevists inflicted on the Russian
> people and nation. The Jews did it; the Jews are stuck with
> it.
> =====================================
And the Goyim are "stuck" with the crimes of
Lenin, Stalin, Beria, and Yezhov? And four more
decades of murderous thugs? Or, if you prefer,
the Russians are "stuck" with what they did
to a number of other nationalities?
Yitz
Eugene Holman
<philip...@attbi.com> wrote:
<deletions>
>
> No, the Bolsheviks did it. Most of them were not Jews, but were Russian,
> Latvians, Poles and many others. But the responsibility for their actions
> rest with the individuals involved, not some extraneous group they happen to
> belong to.
With one or two exceptions, Alexandra Kollontai, Hertta Kuusinen, Angela
Davis being the ones that spring immediately to mind, virtually all of the
leading communists were, are, and have been *men*. According to Phillip's
logic, men are to be blamed for the outrages that the Bolsheviks inflicted
on the Russian people and nation. Men are the true scourge of the planet.
Regards,
Eugene Holman
Steven Mock
> Steven Mock wrote:
>>
>> Richard Phillips <rgp...@mbay.net> wrote in
>> news:3E6227EC...@mbay.net:
>>
>> > Richard Phillips wrote:
>> >
>> >> > > All he has told us here is that Jews who inclined leftwards
>> >> > > were not ENTIRELY Bolsheviks. So what else is new and
>> >> > > exciting?
>> >> >
>> >> > Did I say it was new and exciting? The point is that if Jews
>> >> > were involved enthusiastically in ALL political movements that
>> >> > would have them, why does their involvement in one such movement
>> >> > have any sinister connotations?
>> >
>> > Phillips
>> >
>> > Because that was the movement that prevailed (Bolshevism)
>> > and because of the horrors that that movement inflicted on
>> > the Russian people.
>>
>> Fascinating logic. Any movement that conquers and committs
>> atrocities (even, it should be noted, against Jews) is a Jewish
>> movement by virtue of its having Jews in it.
> ======================================================================
> Phillips
>
> Not necessarily. It would depend on the number and
> collective influence of the mnority undr question.
My point exactly. And I would say, as well, that it depends on a whole
number of additional factors besides, involving the extent and manner to
which these individuals' Jewish identity informed their actions. My point
is that none of these factors are ever examined by Waldo, Seneca and their
ilk. They merely point to the slightly disproportionate presense of Jews
in the movement, highling certain prominent Jews in the party, and declare
it to be a "Jewish movement" without any consideration of factors that
might complicate this conclusion - circumstantial factors that explain this
discrepency, the greater prominence and involvement of other ethnic groups
(both in raw numbers and in proportion), the greater involvement of Jews in
other anti-Bolshevik movements, the anti-Jewish motivation that drove the
majority of those Jews who tried to annihilate their own Jewish identity in
favour of the Bolshevik ideology, and so on.
>> But movements that are defeated, or that don't
>> perpetrate horrors, are obviously not Jewish movements, even if they
>> have an equal or greater proportion of Jewish members and leaders and
>> better serve particularly Jewish interests.
>>
>> >> > Why
>> >> > are they blamed for being behind the Bolshevik seizure of power,
>
> =======================================================
> Phillips
>
> Because they were.
>
> ========================
>> >> > and not being behind the forces that opposed it (in which they
>> >> > were no less represented)?
>
> =========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Because the fact that Jews were in non-Bolshevist factions
> does not change the fact of what was done by the Jews in the
> Bolshevist faction.
No one says it does. The only issue arises when you try to conflate the
individual with the collective. The fact that more Jews were involved in
non- and anti-Bolshevik factions does not change what was done by those
Jews who were Bolsheviks. But it does complicate the conclusion that
Bolshevism was a Jewish movement, that "the Jews" are responsible for it.
No. The article clearly states that, contrary to your claim, the majority
of the executioners were Russians from the local soviet. The disputed
identity of this one leader only provides one example of the ways that
anti-Semites of the time tried to twist the facts in order to falsely blame
the Jews for this particular act.
>> I will grant that being a Jew is not exclusively a matter of
>> religious faith, but nor is it a biological endowment. Don't you
>> recognize that there might be some middle ground here? To be a part
>> of the Jewish group, one must identify as such. The Bolsheviks
>> didn't.
>
> ==================================================================
> Phillips
>
> THere are different ways of "identfying." it can be done
> publicly or it can be done silently. But be in no doubt:
> religion or no religion: THe Bolshies did so identify.
The evidence suggests otherwise. But if you have contrary evidence of your
own to present, feel free to do so. Human identity is a complicated issue,
and open to a wide range of interpretations.
>> The Bolshevist Jews were not only secular, they were fundamentally
>> opposed to any form of particularist Jewish identity. They saw
>> themselves as communists first and only, as evidenced by the fact
>> that Jewish Bolsheviks tended to be more fanatical in their
>> persecution of Judaism than non-Jewish ones. Judaism was something
>> they wanted to erase, as fanatically as they wanted to escape their
>> own Jewish identity.
>
> ===========================================================
> Phillips
>
> Has it occurred to you that there may be a down-to-earth,
> common-sense reason for that. That, to the extent that Jews
> were identifiable AS Jews, it would necessarily weaken their
> claims to power in a country with very strong anti-Jewish
> traditions. I don't know if this was the case; I am only
> throwing you a bone to chew on.
So what are you saying, then. That shutting down synagogues, confiscating
their property, banning Hebrew and Yiddish, dissolving all particular
Jewish political organizations, and suppressing any hint of Zionism were
all part of the ruse to enable the Bolshevik Jews (at least, those few who
weren't already pruged within the first decade of the regime) to remain in
power and continue serving Jewish purposes? What were those Jewish
purposes, then?
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Richard Phillips wrote
in message <3E621865...@mbay.net>:
>Steven Mock wrote:
>> > Steven Mock wrote:
>> > (1) Let me see. Here we are on page 336 and have entries for
>> > "Anigonus," "Antigonus," "Anti-Lebanon," etc. In other
>> > words, already on page 336 and we're still not past the A's.
>> > A most unusual encyclopaedia - or an unbelievably large one.
>> 10+1 volumes.
>I was speaking strictly of Volume 1 - though I ought to have
>made that more clear.
You should have also made more clear the fact that you were going to
ignore the rest of the post, even tho it directly offers the very
proof you asked for.
< snip proof of Waldo's support of lying in furtherance of his
irrational hatred >
Roger
(an Age yet to come, an Age long past)
someone claiming to be Richard Phillips wrote
>Steven Mock wrote:
>> Richard Phillips <rgp...@mbay.net> wrote in
>> news:3E6227EC...@mbay.net:
>> > Richard Phillips wrote:
>> >> > > All he has told us here is that Jews who inclined leftwards
>> >> > > were not ENTIRELY Bolsheviks. So what else is new and
>> >> > > exciting?
>> >> > Did I say it was new and exciting? The point is that if Jews were
>> >> > involved enthusiastically in ALL political movements that would
>> >> > have them, why does their involvement in one such movement have any
>> >> > sinister connotations?
>> > Because that was the movement that prevailed (Bolshevism)
>> > and because of the horrors that that movement inflicted on
>> > the Russian people.
>> Fascinating logic. Any movement that conquers and committs atrocities
>> (even, it should be noted, against Jews) is a Jewish movement by virtue of
>> its having Jews in it.
>Not necessarily. It would depend on the number and
>collective influence of the mnority undr question.
Not what you originally claimed, but okay. Now all you have to do is
show that the number and collective influence of the Jews attracted to
Bolshevism were such that Bolshevism can be reasonably said to be a
Jewish movement, and that the number and collective influence of the
Jews attracted to movements opposing Bolshevism were such that these
movements cannot be reasonably said to be Jewish.
Primary sources and reliable citation, please.
>> But movements that are defeated, or that don't
>> perpetrate horrors, are obviously not Jewish movements, even if they have
>> an equal or greater proportion of Jewish members and leaders and better
>> serve particularly Jewish interests.
>> >> > Why
>> >> > are they blamed for being behind the Bolshevik seizure of power,
>Because they were.
On your say-so?
It is to laugh.
>> >> > and not being behind the forces that opposed it (in which they were
>> >> > no less represented)?
>Because the fact that Jews were in non-Bolshevist factions
>does not change the fact of what was done by the Jews in the
>Bolshevist faction.
So basically, the standards by which you proclaim Bolshevism to be
Jewish are different that those which would show anti-Bolshevism to be
Jewish.
And this double standard should be used by people not suffering from
irrational hate why, exactly?
>> > The Jews would love to evade responsibility for what they
>> > did, but it won't work. They did it.
>> Those particular Jews who committed crimes should no doubt bear
>> responsibility for what they did. But that does not justify blaming it on
>> some corporate entity, the vast majority of whom either had nothing
>> whatsoever to do with it, or even suffered as a result of it.
>The things that happened in Russia would not justify mass
>reprisal against all of their Jews (although snomething like
>that could very well happen). They do, however, stand as an
>unspoken warning to the leaders of any country which does
>not presently have Jews in it. DON'T LET THEM IN. THEY ARE
>TROUBLE.
Of course, that other groups were even more disproportionally
represented in early Bolshevism doesn't result in such a warning about
them.
One doesn't even need to wonder why...
>> >> > >> Now whether Waldo wishes to take the Universal Jewish
>> >> > >> Encyclopedia as a reliable source is up to him (though one
>> >> > >> should note that he was willing to do so when he thought it
>> >> > >> served his case). The point, simply, is that this source does
>> >> > >> not say what he claimed it said. On the contrary, it asserts
>> >> > >> precisely the opposite.
>> >> > > At this point I have to ask: just what is your object?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > --Is it to refute Waldo's claim that Jews had a very very
>> >> > > prominint role in the Bolshevik Revolution ... or
>> >> > No. As I have said repeatedly, I do not dispute this assertion.
>> >> > From the beginning, all I was disputing was the extrapolation of
>> >> > this simple fact into the claim articulated by Seneca and defended
>> >> > by Waldo that "communism was a Jewish movement". The fact that
>> >> > some Jews were involved, even prominently, in certain
>> >> > manifestations of the movement does not a Jewish movement make.
>> > No one is ever going to PROVE that Bolshevism was a Jewish
>> > enterprise, but there are strong reasons for believing that
>> > it was.
MOstly having to do with certain people's irrational hatred of Jews.
>> > (1) The murder of the Czar and his family mas ordered by a
>> > Jew and carried out entirely by Jews (the Ekaterinburg
>> > Soviet).
>> Is that you're evidence? If so, I suppose you'll be amazed to hear that
>> this is, in fact, completely untrue. To quote another text that I cited in
>> my refutation of Waldo's fabrications:
>>
>> "It was the same reasoning that led to portreying the vicious murder of the
>> tsar's family in Ekaterinburg in 1918 as the work of Jews, even tjough the
>> vast majority of the executioners were Russian. Inflamed anti-Semites
>> proclaimed one of the main organizers - chairman of the executive committe
>> of the Urals Soviet, twenty-seven year old Alexander Beloborodov - to be
>> the Jew Weisbrot, even though Oleg Platonov, a leading contemporary exposer
>> of "Jewish crimes", has been forced to admit that "research in the archives
>> does not support this version". In their desire to find Jewish roots for
>> Beloborodov, some people gave his father's name as Grigori (which is common
>> in Jewish families) when it was actually Georgy."(Arkady Vaksberg,
>> "Stalin's Jews". In Cantor, Castle Books, 1996. pp. 365-366)
>THen the sole basis for your exculpation of the Jews in this
>matter aer the disputed origins of this man Beloborodov?
That, and the fact that the "vast majority of the executioners were
Russian." Convenient of you to forget that, huh?
>> > (2) Once Bolshevik power became a fact, there was an odd
>> > re-emigration of hundreds of New York-based Russian Jews,
>> > hungry for posts there. Just exactly what led them to
>> > believe that those posts would be theirs just for the
>> > asking?
>> "Hundreds" is hardly a flood. I'm sure there was a re-imgration of many
>> Bolshevik exiles of many different ethnic backgrounds from many different
>> places. Their earlier prominence in the movement (which was perhaps the
>> very reason why they were reluctant to return until power changed hands)
>> could well be the reason why the expected opportunities. Trotsky, after
>> all, was among that number.
Maybe if you ignore this refutation, it'll just go away, phillips.
>> >> > > I'd say you're one of the best men on WALDO'S side. I hope
>> >> > > he appreciates it.
>> >> > In what way? The only Jews who participated in the Bolshevik
>> >> > movement were those who were willing to persecute Judaism in all of
>> >> > its forms. Which shows that they hardly joined the movement for
>> >> > its "Jewishness", did they?
>> > Being Jewish is a fact of one's birth - an ineradicable
>> > fact. It is in no wise affected by a Jew ceasing to practice
>> > the Jewish religion; neither is it affected by his
>> > converting to the Catholic religion.
>> >
>> > THe Bolshevist Jews were., overwhelmingly, secular Jews.
>> Only if you're a racist
>I am one.
>> is one's cultural identity a determinant of birth.
>Generally speaking, it IS for a Jew.
And if the one making the determination is a racist. The rest of us
should accept this determination why, exactly?
>> I will grant that being a Jew is not exclusively a matter of religious
>> faith, but nor is it a biological endowment. Don't you recognize that
>> there might be some middle ground here? To be a part of the Jewish group,
>> one must identify as such. The Bolsheviks didn't.
>THere are different ways of "identfying." it can be done
>publicly or it can be done silently. But be in no doubt:
>religion or no religion: THe Bolshies did so identify.
Ah. The CryptoJew gambit.
It is to laugh.
>> The Bolshevist Jews were not only secular, they were fundamentally opposed
>> to any form of particularist Jewish identity. They saw themselves as
>> communists first and only, as evidenced by the fact that Jewish Bolsheviks
>> tended to be more fanatical in their persecution of Judaism than non-Jewish
>> ones. Judaism was something they wanted to erase, as fanatically as they
>> wanted to escape their own Jewish identity.
>Has it occurred to you that there may be a down-to-earth,
>common-sense reason for that. That, to the extent that Jews
>were identifiable AS Jews, it would necessarily weaken their
>claims to power in a country with very strong anti-Jewish
>traditions. I don't know if this was the case; I am only
>throwing you a bone to chew on.
You don't make this claim only because you would have to support it
which you cannot do.
But it reflects badly on the Jews, so you buy it hook, line and
sinker, don't you?
This one's a bit bigger, but why not try ignoring the hole it makes in
your claims that Jewish cultural life got a big boost under
Bolshevism, and maybe no one else will notice it either...
Black Knight
This is one of Joe Bruno's maxims:The name Richard Phillips and the
concept of logic are mutually exclusive.
Bruno
Sajo Markecz
"Black Knight" <kni...@indystart.com> wrote in message
news:594c8e48.03030...@posting.google.com...
There are many similarities between Osama - bin - Laden , Hasan - bin -
Sabah , Charles Manson , and Joseph Smith . Charles Manson believed that the
blacks , or very dark brown Africans , were the sons of Ham , one of Noah's
sons , whom Noah cursed to be the ancestor of slaves [ Genesis 9 : 18 - 29 ]
. No where in Genesis 9 : 18 - 29 is skin colour mentioned , and in the Acts
of the Apostles , chapter 8 : 26 - 39 , it is said that St. Philip the
Evangelist converted to Christianity the treasurer of the Queen of the
Ethiopians , Candace . Charles Manson was also a statutory
"polygamist"/concubinist/rapist , as some post - 1890 Mormon splinter groups
still are to this day. A statutory "polygamist"/concubinist/rapist is
someone who marries or has as a concubine more than one female under the age
of 16 at the same time . " The Family " that Charles Manson gave members of
his cult might have been an allusion on Manson's part to Ephesians 3 : 14 -
15 , where the Apostle St. Paul says : " For this reason I bow my knees to
the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ , from whom the whole family in heaven
and earth is named ..." The Prophet Muhammad , the founder of Islam ,
allowed the Muslims to own slaves and to have a maximum of four wives at the
same time . To this day , many southern Sudanese Christians and polytheists
are sold into slavery to Saudi Arabian sheiks by the northern Sudanese
Muslims . Hasan - bin - Sabah was the leader of a Muslim terrorist group
called the " Assassins ," or " hashashins ," Persian or Iranian for " hemp -
eaters . " These Assassins belonged to the Ismaili denomination of the
Shiite division of Islam . These Muslim terrorists killed their enemies
while under the influence of hashish , a drug made from the hemp plant .
Hasan - bin - Sabah was alleged by both his Muslim and Christian Crusader
enemies to use hashish and belly - dancing concubines and wives from his
harem who performed sexual favours in order to gain recruits for his
terrorist organization . Hasan - bin - Sabah was called " The Old Man of the
Mountain " because he had as his base a mountain castle - fortress called "
Alamut ," meaning " eagle's nest ," located in what is today the nation -
state of Iran .
The reason why the mainstream Mormon Church , officially known as The Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter - Day Saints , abolished polygamy in 1890 , was
because that was one of the requirements that had to be met in order to
allow Utah to gain the status of a state , even though freedom of religious
expression is protected by the U.S. Constitution . Joseph Smith , the
founder of the Mormon church , based his favourable views on polygamy on the
fact that many famous Jews mentioned in the Old Testament practiced polygamy
and concubinage [ see 1 Kings 11 : 1 - 13 , Galatians chapter 4 ] . Joseph
Smith also claimed that Jesus Christ had three wives at the same time , and
that they were Mary of Bethany , Martha , and Mary Magdalene , also known as
Mary of Magdala . Susan Atkins , one of Charles Manson's concubines ,
sometimes might have thought that she was Mary Magdalene , a former
prostitute according to several Christian denominations , including the
Roman Catholic one , who was forgiven by Jesus Christ after she decided to
change her ways . Joseph Smith believed that only members of the Mormon
church were true Jews , and that the non - Mormon Jews , the non - Mormon
Christians , and the Muslims , pagans or polytheists , agnostics , and
atheists were all " Gentiles ." There have been several Christian groups and
cults throughout history who have claimed that sexual intercourse is some
kind of mystical , religious , and emotionally as well as physically
ecstatic experience . They have included the Puritan sects and cults called
the Ranters and Antinomians [ "antinomos," Greek for "anti - law." ] . The
1600's English Puritan Ranter sect and cult leaders Laurence Clarkson or
Laurence Claxton and Abiezer Coppe sometimes thought that they were the two
witnesses of God mentioned in Revelation ch.11 , and the leader of the
1600's English Puritan sect called the Antinomians was a certain Anne
Marbury Hutchinson [ 1591 - 1643 ] , who settled with her family in the
Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1634 . In 1643 , Anne and several other members
of the Hutchinson family were murdered in the then Dutch colony of the state
of New York by native American Indians . I personally do not believe that
the Apostle St. Paul's teaching in Romans 10 : 13 , " that whomsoever calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved ," is a justification to shout the
word " God " when having a sexual orgasm , and then claim that it is an
action done in the faith . I also do not believe that the Apostle St. Paul's
teaching in Romans 4 : 15 , " that where there is no law , there is no sin ,
" is a justification to walk around nakedly because Adam and Eve once did so
unashamedly before Satan , the fallen angel , disguised as a snake [
Revelation 12 : 7 - 9 ] , tricked them into eating the fruit of forbidden
knowledge , thereby causing Adam and Eve to lose their innocence and
immortality [ Romans chapter 7 , and Song of Songs ] . I also do not believe
that because God the Father is physically speaking neither a man nor a woman
it is morally justifiable to engage in bisexual , homosexual , and lesbian
sexual intercourse . The evolutionary purpose of sexual intercourse for
humans is to produce offspring . However , a literal , fundamentalist
interpretation of the Bible can sometimes lead to sin , as those Christians
who engage in incest might argue that the children of Adam and Eve and the
grandchildren of Noah had to have had sexual intercourse with each other in
order to have offspring .
Charles Manson , who sometimes believed that he was the Son of Man , the
Second Coming of Jesus Christ opening the seven seals mentioned in the New
Testament book of Revelation , the Parousia , was also a strong admirer of
Adolf Hitler , and one of the possible reasons why Charles Manson carved a
swastika in his forehead , was because he was angry with those Jews who
refused to believe that he was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ . Jesus
Christ told His disciples in Matthew 10 : 1 - 15 to first preach the Gospel
of Christianity to the Jews of Israel , and later Jesus told His disciples
to preach the Christian Gospel to all the nations of the world in Matthew 28
: 18 - 20 . However , Jesus Christ would not have sanctioned the use of
force and violence in converting people to Christianity , as He had taught
His disciples in Matthew 7 : 12 and Luke 6 : 31 to do towards others as we
would want them to do to us . Charles Manson was of Scotch - Irish Baptist
ancestry . Charles Manson was a Nazi who decided to use the Hippies because
they were so easy to mislead , being for the most part usually unwise and
easily bought with drugs and sexual favours .The real reason why Charles
Manson was angry with the police was because they refused to make him the
Chief of the Gestapo , with the power to send to the gas chambers those Jews
who refused to believe that he was the Second Coming of Jesus Christ . Jesus
Christ said in Matthew 23 : 37 - 39 the following : " O Jerusalem ,
Jerusalem , the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to
her ! How often I wanted to gather your children together , as a hen gathers
her chicks under her wings , but you were not willing ! " See ! Your house
is left to you desolate ; " For I say to you , you shall see Me no more till
you say , ' Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD ! ' " For
Charles Manson , the true "pigs" were any one who opposed his views ,
especially the politically correct , although to some extent Manson was
justified in his hostility towards the politically correct . Charles Manson
was also a believer in reincarnation . According to Luke 1 : 11 - 19 and
Matthew 17 : 1 - 13 , St. John the Baptist was the Prophet Elijah returned
to Earth to prepare people for the first coming of the prophesied Messiah of
the Old Testament . Manson might have believed on occasions that he was
another John the Baptist , sent to prepare the way for the Second Coming of
Jesus Christ . John the Baptist said in Matthew 3 : 7 to the ancient Israeli
Jewish sects called the Pharisees and Sadducees this , " Brood of vipers !
Who told you to flee from the wrath to come ? " Manson also on occasions
believed that he was either Nathan Bedford Forrest , the southern U.S.
Confederate cavalry general of the U.S. Civil War [ 1861 - 1865 ] who was
also a war criminal and a founder of the original 1866 Ku Klux Klan , or
John Wilkes Booth , the Shakespearen actor who assassinated Abraham Linclon
, reincarnated . The major enemies for the Ku Klux Klan are Afro - Americans
, Jews , members of the Roman Catholic denomination of Christianity , the
Free Masons , liberal Democrats as opposed to southern U.S. Conservative
Democrats , and the Communists . My personal theory on the issue of
reincarnation and regression to past lives under hypnosis is that possibly
memories of one soul that has departed from a dead body are transferred to
another soul in a living body , and not necessarily that of near or distant
relatives , although all people are distant relatives of each other by means
of evolution over many generations.
During the Second World War , many Iraqi military officers were pro - Axis
[ Germany , Italy , and Japan ] in their sympathies , and the British Army
in 1941 overthrew the pro - Hitler Iraqi military dictatorship . Many Muslim
Arab Palestinians were also understandably pro - Hitler during the Second
World War , opposed to the large - scale Jewish immigration to Palestine
that had been going on during the British League of Nations mandate of
Palestine from 1918 - 1948 , since many Zionist Jews wished to reestablish
the ancient nation of Israel , which had declined after the then pagan or
polytheist Romans destroyed the Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem in A.D. 70, a
revolt that had largely been begun by those Jews who refused to convert to
Christianity , or to Greco - Roman paganism . After Reza Shah Pahlavi of
Iran refused in 1941 to allow the British to use the Trans - Iranian Railway
to bring supplies to their war - time ally , the Soviet Union , the British
and Soviets sent their military to occupy Iran for the remainder of the war
until . Reza Shah Pahlavi was forced to abdicate in favour of his son Shah
Mohammed Reza Pahlavi , who signed a war - time treaty with the British and
Soviets . Mohammed Reza Pahlavi was the last Shah of Iran , overthrown in
1979 by the fundamentalist , fanatical Islamist revolution led by the
Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini . The presence of these troops in Iran during
the Second World War heightened strongly nationalistic and pro - Axis
sympathy among many Iranians , made worse by the fact that both Russia and
Britain had long held colonial ambitions towards Iran . Ironically enough ,
the Cold War superpower rivals , the U.S.A. and the U.S.S.R. , both backed
Iraq in its war against Iran from 1980 - 1988 .
The great split within the Muslim world is between the Sunni and Shiite and
divisions of Islam . The Sunnis are the " Protestant " equivalent of Islam ,
as they believe that any suitably qualified Muslim adult male can succeed
the Prophet Muhammad as Qaliph or supreme spiritual leader of the Islamic
world , whereas the Shiites believe that only the direct descendants of
Muhammad can qualify for this role . Most Muslims are Sunnis , including
Osama - bin - Laden , his Arabian peninsula Al - Qaida or Al - Qaeda
supporters , and their Afghan Taliban protectors . The Shiites form the
majority of the Muslim population in Iran , Iraq , and a large minority of
the population in Lebanon . However , only in Iran are the Shiites in
control of the government . In Iraq , a Sunni Arab Muslim minority , located
mainly in central Iraq around and within Baghdad , controls the Iraqi
government . The wealthy Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein , with his many
palaces , is a Sunni Arab Muslim . The Shiite Marsh Arabs of southern Iraq
and the Sunni Kurdish [ Kurdish is an Iranian dialect with many Arab and
Turkish loan words ] of northern Iraq are bitterly opposed to the rule of
Saddam Hussein and the ruling clique of the Sunni Muslim Arab Iraqis based
in Baghdad . During the Iraq - Iran War of 1980 - 1988 , most Shiite Marsh
Arabs of Iraq stayed relatively loyal to Saddam Hussein , but the Sunni
Kurds of Iraq allied themselves with the Shiite Iranians , leading to the
terrible reprisal by the Iraqi central government with chemical weapons .
Personally , I believe that neither the Iraqis or the Iranians can be
trusted with nuclear , chemical , and biological weapons , which , if they
were ever allowed to develop , they would probably use against Israel ,
which itself has a large nuclear arsenal , thereby leading to a Middle
Eastern nuclear war that would pollute the oil wells of the Middle East ,
and the result would be serious world inflation that would hit the poor
nations of the world especially hard . Should a nuclear armed missile hit an
oil well , clouds of radioactive contaminated black smoke from that oil well
would travel far into the atmosphere , and would return to earth as
radioactive contaminated acid rain .
However , the Islamic world does not have a monopoly on ultimately
religiously inspired anti - Jewish sentiment , even though the Prophet
Muhammad turned against the Jews after his hopes for their conversion to
Islam on a large scale failed to eventuate . The Prophet Muhammad also had
the same hopes towards the Christians . Martin Luther the German published
in 1543 an essay called " On the Jews and Their Lies ," in which Luther
urged that Jewish synagogues be burnt , because most of the Jews refused to
convert to Christianity on a large scale , which Martin Luther hoped would
be a sign of the return of Jesus Christ in the near future .
In 1938 , in Nazi Germany , on Kristallnacht [ Crystalnight , or The Night
of Broken Glass ] , many Jewish synagogues were burnt , as Martin Luther had
urged in his often reprinted and preached 1543 essay called " On the Jews
and Their Lies ," as this essay was often preached by most German Lutheran
pastors , with a few exceptions , until 1945 . After the German federal
election of the 5th of March , 1933 , Alfred von Hugenberg , the leader of
the mainly Lutheran laypersons' [ non - pastors ] " German National Peoples'
Party ," along with Baron Franz von Papen , leader of the mainly Catholic
laypersons' " Center Party ," formed a coalition with the Nazis , in order
to outvote the Communists and Social Democrats . The Nazis gained about 44%
of the seats in the lower house of the German federal parliament , the
Reichstag , in the German federal election of the 5th of March , 1933 . From
1929 - 1933 , the Nazis gained the largest votes in German state elections
where the Lutherans formed the majority of the states' population . Between
1929 - 1933 , these following German states , all of them with a mainly
Lutheran population , had state governments where the Nazis were either
coalition leaders or partners : Braunschweig [ Brunswick in English ] ,
Mecklenburg , Mecklenburg - Strelitz , Lubeck , Thuringia , Saxony - Anhalt
, Harzburg , Oldenburg , and Lippe . Only the German state of Schleswig -
Holstein , another mainly Lutheran state , had a state legislature between
1929 - 1933 , where the Nazis had a majority of the seats between 1929 -
1933 . Schleswig - Holstein had been taken from Denmark by Germany in a war
that had broken out in 1864 , and in 1920 , the northern third of Schleswig
was returned to Denmark after a referendum had been held on the issue .One
of the reasons why Germany , out of all other nations , had the Nazis come
to power , was because Germany lacked a strong democratic tradition .
Between 1850 - 1919 , the German state of Brandenburg - Prussia had a three
class electoral law , although the state of Bavaria had introduced universal
adult male suffrage in 1904 , followed by Baden - Wurttemberg [ formerly
Swabia ] , in 1906 .The German state governments nominated the members of
the German federal upper house , the Bundesrat , which , along with the
German Chancellor and Kaiser had final veto powers over the German federal
lower house , the Bundestag . Benito Mussolini , the founder of 20th Century
Italian Fascism , was a former anarcho - syndicalist socialist , as
Napoleone Buonaparte of Corsica had once been a former Jacobin . Corsica
until 1768 was part of the Italian state of Genoa - Liguria , and the native
language of Corsica is an Italian dialect . Like Adolf Hitler was to do
after him in 1941 , Napoleone Buonaparte launched a disastrous invasion of
Russia in 1812 , and by 1815 the remnants of Napoleone's imperial armies
were defeated at the Battle of Waterloo by the combined allied armies of
Wellington's British red coats and of Blucher's Prussian - German dark blue
coats .
Most of the Japanese are Mahayana Buddhists and Shintoists at the same time
. The Mahayana Buddhists are the Protestants of Buddhism , as opposed to the
Theravada Buddhists , who are the Catholics of Buddhism . The Mahayana
Buddhists believe that members of the Buddhist laity , as well as members of
the Buddhist monkhood , can achieve nirvana more quickly . The Mahayana
Buddhists also tend to place greater emphasis on the sincerity of a
believer's faith , the relationship between motives and methods , and the
role of divine grace , then Theravada Buddhists do . In 1925 universal adult
male suffrage or voting rights was introduced for national elections for the
first time in the history of Japan , although by 1941 Japan had become a
one - party state military dictatorship . Since 1909 , the martial art of
judo , which traces its ancestry to the samurai martial art of jujitsu , has
been a compulsory subject in Japanese schools , although it was banned as a
compulsory subject in Japanese schools from 1945 - 1950 . After 1945 , the
requirement of all able - bodied Japanese males over the age of 21 to do
three years of compulsory military service , was abolished , although the
martial arts still figure prominently in the training of the members of
Japan's voluntary Self - Defense Forces and police force to this day . The
three techniques of judo are nagewaza [ throwing ] , katamewaza [
wrestling ] , and atemiwaza [ punching and kicking ] . Atemiwaza may only be
taught to judokas above the rank of white belt , and may only be used by
them in training and self - defense , but never in judo sporting contests .
During the Second World War , when low on bullets and food , the Japanese
soldiers would often launch a banzai bayonet charge and judo - atemiwaza
attack , preferring a heroic death to humiliating surrender .
Heinrich Himmler , the leader of the Gestapo , once ridiculously tried to
prove that the Japanese are undercover Aryans , since the Japanese racially
mixed with the indigenous peoples of the Japanese Home Islands , the Ainu ,
who once had some Caucasian - like physical features . Today , there are few
or no Ainu without some Japanese ancestry . The Japanese themselves are a
mixture of Altaic people [ speakers of the closely related Korean ,
Manchurian , Tungus , Inner Mongolian [ Chinese province ] , and Outer
Mongolian [ Russian occupied from 1916 - 1991 ] languages , and the Malay
people , including the Indonesians and Filipinos . The southern Chinese ,
Taiwanese Chinese , and Vietnamese , Laotian , Cambodian and Thai languages
show a heavy Malay substratum , a result of racial mixing between indigenous
or earlier arrived people and foreign invaders . Premier Hideki Tojo of
Japan can be considered not only as a 20th Century Japanese Shogun , but
also as 20th Century Temujin or Genghis Khan of Asia . Since albinos are the
only true whites , ultra - nationalist Japanese political and religious
groups , especially those that try to combine Buddhist and Shintoist
teachings with Christianity , should try to hire genetic engineers to invent
albino skinned Ainus who are immune to sunburn , because of the
Transfiguration of Jesus Christ , when " His clothes turned became as white
as the light ," [ Matthew 17 : 2 ] , and with slanted eye folds retained ,
because of the miracle of the eye of the needle mentioned in Mark 10 : 25 -
27. I am being sarcastic here . Shoko Asahara and the Aum Shinrikyo or Aum
Supreme Truth sect comes to mind . Maybe the martial art of judo should also
be genetically encoded into the Japanese by means of genetic engineering ,
because of David and Goliath , to be sarcastic again .
As much as I hate Nazism , I also hate Communism . Proverbs 4 : 27 in the
Old Testament says that we should not turn to the right or the left , but
that we should remove our feet from evil . Proverbs 19 : 10 in the Old
Testament says that it is not fitting for a fool to enjoy luxury , much less
for a servant to rule over princes . With the long - term economic legacy of
Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot , I can see why . Jesus Christ said in Mark 10 :
17 - 27 that nothing is impossible with God , and that God can save a rich
person who follows the Ten Commandments . According to Proverbs 30 : 8 - 9 ,
it is morally safest to be neither rich nor poor , because the rich might be
tempted to deny God and the poor might be tempted to steal . An excess of
material possessions can lead to spiritual and moral complacency , and
hunger can lead to theft . Usury is the sin of lending money on interest to
the poor according to Proverbs 22 : 7 and Proverbs 22 : 26 - 27 , but what
about lending money on interest to the middle class and the rich for
business expansion purposes ? According to 2 Timothy 3 : 16 - 17 , all of
the Bible is inspired by God [ see also Ephesians 2 : 8 - 10 , 1 Timothy 2 :
1 - 4 , 2 Peter 3 : 9 , John 5 : 24 , John 3 : 16 , Mark 9 : 23 - 24 ,
Romans 10 : 9 , Luke chapter 15 , Luke 19 : 1 - 10 , Proverbs 13 : 13 ,
Proverbs 14 : 26 - 27 , Proverbs 19 : 23 , 1 Corinthians 12 : 3 , and the
Acts of the Apostles 9 : 1 - 18 ] .
In the U.S.A. , the voters have the constitutional right under the Second
Bill of Rights to bear arms as members of a well regulated state militia ,
for example , the U.S. National Guard , which the U.S. Supreme Court
interpreted as being a safeguard intended by the American law makers of the
1780's to protect the states from any likelihood that the U.S. federal
government would become dictatorial , although the state , county , and
municipal governments are just as likely to become dictatorial , as the
southern U.S. states often treated their black minorities in a dictatorial
manner . The U.S. National Guard and the posse comitatus of the U.S. Sheriff
traces its historical origins to the county or shire and municipal or
borough Trained Band army reserve and volunteer mounted yeoman constabulary
of the old English miltia system , along with the liverymen , coachmen ,
footmen , doormen of the English aristocracy and guild masters , and the
comparatively light cavalry armed retainers or bodyguards of ancient English
warrior - aristocrats or warlord chieftains . St . Paul the Apostle wrote in
his epistle to the Romans , chapter 13 : 1 - 7 that all authorities who
wield the sword are appointed by God to enforce the law . The word
"authorities" is a plural word . However , I still believe that rioters
should be dispersed by firing rubber coated metal bullets into their legs ,
stomachs , and chests , with the use of scopes for accurate aiming and
semi - automatic rifles to control the rate of fire . The safety of the riot
police comes before the safety of rioters , because peaceful and legal
protesters lose many civil rights when they decide to become violent rioters
and cowardly mob tyrants .
>
Tavish
kni...@indystart.com (Black Knight) wrote:
>"Philip Mathews" <philip...@attbi.com> wrote in message news:<2Pi5a.196120$vm2.153412@rwcrnsc54>...
>> "Waldo" <Wald...@hushmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:3e55a765$0$1...@news.impulse.net...
>> > In the thread, "The (un)Importance of Being Ernst", we were discussing
>> > whether Jews played a prominent role in the Bolshevik Revolution and
>> > subsequent Soviet Communism - especially during the period of 1918 thru
>> > 1940.
:
>> > Mr. Mock and company were (of course) busy trying to downplay the
>> > prominence of Jews in Soviet Bolshevism / Communism.
:
>> No, we were trying to rein in the lies told by Jew haters like "Waldo".
:
>The whole idea that Jews are Communists is self-contradictory.
>Communism is an atheist philosophy. Judaism is a religion that
>worships God. The minute someone embraces Communism, he is no longer a
>Jew.
So does the Jew become a Gentile then? You are most humorous Artie BUT you are
incredibly stupid when you make such asinine statements! Your communist Jews
were secular Jews BUT Jews never the less!
YOUR ignoramus opinions do not overcome what other Jews have stated about Jews
and their ties to communism as I show here to your shame:
<<<In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. section 107, this material is
distributed without profit or payment to those who have expressed
a prior interest in receiving this information for non-profit
research and educational purposes only. - FAIR USE INTENDED>>>
http://www.bnaibrith.ca/institute/millennium/millennium02.html
^^^^^^^^^
HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES
2. The Canadian Jewish Experience: A Distinct Personality Emerges
Gerald Tulchinsky
Canadian Jewish history is a subject in its own right, not a branch or pale
reflection of the Jewish experience in the United States. Its contours were
shaped by Canadian conditions, and did not necessarily reflect occurrences and
trends that took place first among mainstream Americans and, years later, were
experienced by their northern cousins....
To be sure, there are many significant - almost overpowering - resemblances
between the American and Canadian Jewish historical experiences, and, in certain
respects, the communities are so similar as to be almost indistinguishable.
Without doubt, the more numerous and more highly developed American Jewish
communities exercised strong and continuing influences on Canadian Jewry. After
all, in both cases most of their people came from eastern Europe in sudden and
vast immigration waves before 1914. And, of course, the cultural baggage they
brought with them was identical in both countries: deeply pious, rigid Orthodoxy
in many and a complex mix of philosophies such as Marxism, socialism, anarchism,
Zionism, bundism, and other ideals among many of the young who had been exposed
to the intellectual transformations outside their own narrow world...
<END>
http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/timeline/haskala.cfm
(Link active January 20, 2003)
"A lot of Haskala Jews are ready to give up on Russia. Many channel their
energy into creating a home land of their own. Some Haskala Jews turn to
political revolution. The Russian Revolution of the early 20th century will
overthrow the Czarist government and it will be led by a disproportionate
number of Jews. "
The same text is mirrored at this Jewish web site as well:
http://www.yahrzeit.org/text_link/temple_text4/textpage119.htm
http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/timeline/desteeur.cfm
"A disproportionate number within the revolutionary movements are Jewish...
Russian Revolutionary movement and it finally succeeds in overthrowing the Czar.
However, it subsequently brings the country into a bitter civil war. The
Communists emerge victorious. Within their ranks are a disproportionate number
of Jews..."
<<Tavish comment: The above totally refutes your asinine claim you made above
with your words: "The minute someone embraces Communism, he is no longer a
Jew." Anyone who has any sense knows you're a fool in denial!>>
How about this?
http://www.jewishsf.com/bk001124/iczechenvoy.shtml
First Czech envoy to Israel and Kafka backer dies at 87
RICHARD ALLEN GREENE
Jewish Telegraphic Agency
LONDON -- Eduard Goldstucker, a champion of Franz Kafka and the first
Czechoslovak ambassador to Israel, died recently in Prague at the age of 87.
He spent the last nine years of his life fighting to have a square near Prague's
historic Jewish quarter named for Franz Kafka, the famed writer who was born in
the Czech capital and lived most of his life there.
In April -- six months before his death on Oct. 23, Goldstucker achieved that
goal.
A Jew born in Central Europe just before the outbreak of World War I,
Goldstucker lived through turbulent times.
He escaped Czechoslovakia with his wife immediately after Hitler invaded in
1939. He lost much of his family, including his mother, to the Holocaust.
He spent the early days of the war in England, where he worked with the
Czechoslovak government-in-exile's foreign service. He was rewarded with a post
in Paris after the liberation of France, and he went on to represent his country
in the earliest days of the United Nations.
When Czechoslovakia needed an ambassador to the new state of Israel, Goldstucker
was the choice.
He was on his way to his next diplomatic post, Sweden, when the Stalinist show
trials swung into action. A member of the generation of idealistic young
Czechoslovak Communists, he had joined the party in 1933, when he was 20...
<END>
Hey Artie-- care to retract you ignoramus opinion of: "The minute someone
embraces Communism, he is no longer a Jew" at this time? snicker snicker
http://www.hungary.com/corvinus/lib/maj/maj06.htm
American Hungarian Relations 1918-1944
(Excerpt)
Before World War I there existed no anti-Semitic movement in Hungary. The large
percentage of Jews felt as strongly Hungarians as the German Jews felt German.
In contrast to their racial brothers in Rumania and Russia, Hungarian Jews did
not suffer from persecution or exceptional legal treatment.(35) But a
disproportionate number of Jews helped to establish Bolshevism in Hungary and
were its most cruel exponents. Ninety-five percent of the Communist leaders were
Jewish; and, of the twenty-six Commissars, eighteen were Jews.. <END>
Hey Artie-- care to retract you ignoramus opinion of: "The minute someone
embraces Communism, he is no longer a Jew" at this time? snicker snicker
http://www.hungary.com/hungq/no156/054.html
István Deák
On the Leash
Éva Standeisky: Az írók és a hatalom, 1956–1963 (Hungarian Writers and
Government Power, 1956–1963), Budapest, 1956-os Intézet, 1996, 482 pp. illust.
(Excerpt)
Yet it must have been a crucial factor. Not without reason did the interwar and
the immediate postwar Communist Party harbour such a disproportionate number of
Jewish intellectuals. Déry and colleagues survived the Holocaust because they
lived in Budapest from where Jews were not deported to Auschwitz; or because
they were lucky, or because they had non-Jewish friends. Still, the loss of
family members and friends as well as the fact that they had been rejected by
Hungarian society must have left a very deep mark on them.
These writers were no Zionists and even their professed Communist
internationalism did not exclude their Hungarian patriotism. Like all other
Hungarian Jewish Communists, whether in 1919 or after 1945, they not only felt
Hungarian, they tended to see themselves as among the better Hungarians. Still,
their life since at least 1944 was ridden with fear. Standeisky quotes Zoltán
Zelk, another famous reformist Communist writer and poet who, initially during
the 1956 Revolution, did not dare attend demonstrations because, as a Jew, he
feared that he would be torn to pieces... <END>
Hey Artie-- care to retract you ignoramus opinion of: "The minute someone
embraces Communism, he is no longer a Jew" at this time? snicker snicker
Here you are Artie defending communism and what a commie you are too you vermin.
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=594c8e48.0302211852.6afb0d71%40posting.google.com&rnum=9
Subject: Re: NIZKOR.ORG's Director Ken McVay's Chinese Communists Harass,
Imprison, and Torture Christians
Date: 21 Feb 2003 18:52:11 -0800
Message-ID: <594c8e48.03022...@posting.google.com>
"I said this before and I'll say it again. The economic philosophy
called Communism is not evil or oppressive or murderous per se."
I don't think Jeff Jacoby would agree with your apologies of communism Artie!
http://www.physics.ncat.edu/~michael/vses/eth4000/victim.html
TO THE VICTIMS OF COMMUNISM, LEST WE FORGET
By Jeff Jacoby
The Boston Globe
December 7, 1995
In 1993, President Clinton signed Public Law 103-199, authorizing a memorial
in Washington to those who died in the ``unprecedented imperial Communist
holocaust'' that began in 1917. It is a memorial long overdue. And it is
well-suited to Washington, the capital of the Free World and the headquarters
of what President Kennedy called the ``long twilight struggle'' against the
totalitarians of the Left. When completed, the Victims of Communism Memorial
will include a museum documenting the crimes committed by the disciples of
Marx and Lenin; original artifacts from the bitter night of Communist
brutality (a piece of the Berlin Wall, a cell from the ``Hanoi Hilton'');
and a database preserving the names of those wiped out in history's greatest
slaughter.
Or at least as many of those names as can be identified. It is impossible
that we shall ever know them all. Every one of the hundreds of thousands of
Cossacks butchered on Lenin's orders in 1919? Every Miskito Indian killed in
Nicaragua under the Sandinistas? Every Chinese peasant, all 2 million-plus
of them, obliterated during Mao Zedong's ``land reform'' in the early 1950s?
Impossible.
For pure murderous evil, there has never been a force to compare with
Communism... Savagery has always been a hallmark of Communism. It is an ideology
that requires the destruction of human beings... Communism equals murder.
Everywhere. Always... One hundred million victims of Communism. And those are
only the victims who were slain. It doesn't include those who were maimed or
driven mad... Rarely do we think of them, or of the hundred million. We forget
how pathologically evil Communism has been, or why we poured so much blood and
treasure into fighting the Cold War... <END>
The above text is also mirrored at these sites:
http://www.gulag.hu/jacoby.htm
http://www.sid-ss.net/ref/vocmf.htm
http://www.globalspin.org/million_dead_russia.html
BTW Artie-- why don't you contact Jeff Jacoby and attack him like you did me and
tell him what you ranted: "I said this before and I'll say it again. The
economic philosophy called Communism is not evil or oppressive or murderous per
se."
If we accept your logic at face value then your fellow Jews should forever shut
their mouths about the evils of Nazism. Afterall as you have stated (as shown
higher up): "Communism is an ideology, you fucking idiot. It is an inanimate
intangible with no arms or legs which cannot speak. Therefore, it cannot kill
anyone." IOW going by your standards this can also be claimed: "Nazism is an
ideology, you fucking idiot. It is an inanimate intangible with no arms or legs
which cannot speak. Therefore, it cannot kill anyone." and if that were true
then why are you and your fellow Jews so paranoid about Nazism? Nazism hasn't
ever killed anyone going by your standards!
>Bruno
______________________________________________________________________
Posted Via Uncensored-News.Com - Still Only $9.95 - http://www.uncensored-news.com
<><><><><><><> The Worlds Uncensored News Source <><><><><><><><>
Black Knight
<deletia>
Get a job, you fucking fat bum. Communism is atheistic and Jews
believe in god, you fat piece of lazy shit.
Black Knight
<deleted insane ravings of mentally unbalanced whale>
Get a job, you bum.
>
Tavish
kni...@indystart.com (Black Knight) wrote:
My "Maxim Concerning Debate"- Originally written in a letter to Liberal
Radio Talk Show Host Jim Hightower:
"I am tired of seeing people get attacked for speaking
the truth and the hecklers not being able to prove their point
other than scorn or ridicule.
Liberals can't refute the truth so all liberals instead
attempt to make the truth bearer into a buffoon hoping to draw the
public's attention away from the message!
I will tell you a secret and I hope that you learn from it!
This is my original- "If I hear something being debated pertaining
to a subject that I am not cognizant of, therefore impartial, I
examine the manner of the debate and conduct. I know who is telling
the truth and who is lying by the tactics employed- the liar always
attacks the opposing person and the truth teller always attacks the
opposing premise!"
-Subject: Tavish Maxim Concerning Debate.
-Date: 1997/12/09
-Message-ID: <348ccbc4....@news.smart1.net>
The Socialists/Marxists/Leftists/Liberals or whatever name they choose
to exist under are the primary users of smear and innuendo thus they
typically resort to personal attacks instead of dealing in FACT.
Joseph Hertzlinger
| Now conduct the following thought experiment. Suppose the great
| post-1881 immigration of Ashkenazi Jews had never occurred. Suppose
| the Jewish population of the U.S. in 2003 were not the two to four
| percent (depending on your definitions) that it is, but the 0.3
| percent it was at the start of the Civil War. Would anything have been
| lost? Would America be richer or poorer? Would our cultural and
| intellectual life be busier or duller?
|
| It seems incontrovertible to me that a great deal would have been
| lost: entrepreneurs, jurists, philanthropists, entertainers,
| publishers, and legions upon legions of scholars: not mere
| psychoanalysts and "critical theorists," but physicists,
| mathematicians, medical researchers, historians, economists---even,
| as MacDonald notes honestly in his new preface, evolutionary
| psychologists! The first American song whose words I knew was "White
| Christmas," written by a first-generation Ashkenazi Jewish immigrant.
| The first boss I ever had in this country was a Jew who had served
| honorably in the U.S. Marine Corps. Perhaps it is true, as MacDonald
| claims, that "most of those prosecuted for spying for the Soviet Union
| [i.e., in the 1940s and 1950s] were Jews." It is also true, however,
| that much of the secret research they betrayed to their country's
| enemies was the work of Jewish scientists. The Rosenbergs sold the
| Bomb to the Soviets; but without Jewish physicists, there would have
| been no Bomb to sell. Last spring I attended a conference of
| mathematicians attempting to crack a particularly intractable problem
| in analytic number theory. A high proportion of the 200-some attendees
| were Jews, including at least two from Israel. Sowers of discord there
| have certainly been, but on balance I cannot see how anyone could deny
| that this country is enormously better off for the contributions of
| Jews. Similarly for every other nation that has liberated the energies
| and intelligence of Jewish citizens. Was Hungary better off, or worse
| off, after the 1867 Ausgleich? Was Spain better off, or worse off,
| before the 1492 expulsions? "To ask the question is to answer it."
Black Knight
Please don't confuse Fatslob with facts-his mind is made up.
Tavish
kni...@indystart.com (Black Knight) wrote:
>Please don't confuse Fatslob with facts-his mind is made up.
---
"It takes no thought whatsoever, on the other hand, to flame someone for
this, rather than present a rational argument, backed by verifiable evidence.
Once again, [you] display [your] preference for the cheap shot over the
reasoned statement." -- Jeffrey G. Brown
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=&selm=jeff_brown-1111961218190001%40news.zippo.com&rnum=6
Message-ID: <jeff_brown-11...@news.zippo.com>