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Lloyd Miller

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Jun 25, 1999, 3:00:00 AM6/25/99

prj-digest Thursday, 24 June 1999 Volume 01 : Number
209

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From: bate...@pacbell.net
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:04:56 -0700
Subject: [prj] FWD:Wolfe's Lodge - Essays - FEMA Road to Heart Mtn

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BF>Make your own determination on this...

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<CENTER><H2>THE ROAD TO HEART MOUNTAIN?</H2>
<H3>Rumors, FEMA and the Future</H3>

<BLOCKQUOTE>A slightly different version of this article was printed in
the Loompanics Unlimited winter (September) 1998 catalog supplement. This
"open-mindedly skeptical" view of FEMA was actually written in January of
that year. It owes a lot to the work of other authors and researchers, whose
articles are referenced at the end. Except for the portions pertaining to
the internment at Heart Mountain, it isn't primarily the product of my own
original research, but is a compilation of, and meditation upon, research
done by others.
</BLOCKQUOTE></CENTER>

In the prison camp, they nearly went mad with wind and boredom. And
with cold. Many had never seen snow, let alone this 30-below, wind-driven
horror. The winds blew white drifts through the cracks in the floors. The
huddled families could never get warm, could never get used to the
screaming, maddening wind…

-----

We approach the site of the old camp on a January day. The roads are
open -- barely. They often close them around here simply because of the
wind; wind-carved humps and sheets of snow send vehicles careening into
ditches. There's nothing to hit in this high desert. But you can roll
forever.

The mountain dominates the valley. I never thought a mountain could be
ugly until I saw this one. It looks like the face of huge, sleeping a man.
His nose swells and hooks. He has no lips. Out of his chin a rocky
excrescence protrudes like a wart. No, not exactly a man. More like a
deformed god.

-----

In the summertime, in the camp, the wind blew brown drifts through the
cracks in the floors and between the dry, uninsulated boards of the walls.
Every day during harvest, prisoners would be driven outside the barbed wire
enclosure to work in the fields.

But the young men -- more than 600 -- left the camp to fight in the war.
They became soldiers for the government that had imprisoned them.

-----

In 1942, Franklin Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9066, sending more
than 110,000 people to relocation camps. Most of the internees were U.S.
citizens. Eleven thousand went to Heart Mountain, north of Cody, Wyoming --
imprisoned without trial for the crime of Japanese descent.

To this day, there are Americans who defend this internal deportation,
saying, "It was for their own good," or, "They weren't like us. They were
loyal to their own kind." The camps, they say, were necessary.

The question is—Is it about to happen again? Does the U.S. government
have plans to round up citizens and lock them into bitter internment "for
the duration" of some future emergency?

The Internet is rife with rumors. The most persistent rumor says
political dissidents will be targeted, this time.

Skeptics dismiss the rumors as so much conspiracy-mongering. And even
some conspiracy buffs warn against pursuing the tales. When I mentioned I
was looking into that question, one said to me, "That way lies madness. If
you find out there are camps, no one will believe you. And if there are
camps, and you come too close…"

Some rumors do seem preposterous. In the way of urban legends, people
who've "seen the camps being built with their very own eyes" are usually
nameless friends of friends, their stories unverifiable. Other reports might
have perfectly innocent explanations. An acquaintance shouted breathlessly
down the phone that he'd seen, "Barbed wire! High walls! And guard
towers!" being built at Ft. Lewis in Washington state.

Well, yes, I thought. You would see those things being built on
a military base, wouldn't you? Later, photos circulated on the Internet
of such installations. But no one could document their purpose. Experienced
military men within the freedom movement countered that they appeared to be
training facilities for operating POW camps -- a perfectly legitimate
operation. Eerie as such things are, it takes a lot more than this to prove
that concentration camps are being built to house us.

But the reports won't go away. Even where they're shaky on specifics,
they express an intuitive truth about the federal government's view of
ordinary Americans. There's nothing new in that federal opinion.

Shortly after the original internment camps closed, J. Edgar Hoover
conceived a plan called "Security Portfolio," which would have enabled the
president to declare a national emergency, suspend the Constitution, and put
thousands of people into prison with no trial and no habeas corpus rights.

It was the beginning of the Cold War against Americans.

Two years later, Congress approved the Security Act of 1950, which also
contained an emergency detention plan. Reportedly, Hoover was furious at the
plan's "mildness," and continued with more draconian plans of his own.

The Security Act remained in force for more than 20 years. G. Gordon
Liddy reminisces openly about the days when his job in the FBI included
keeping tabs on a list of potential internees. Once every three months, he
checked the whereabouts of the political agitators on his list so the
government could round them up reliably.

During the unrest of the 1960s the federal government again made
contingency plans for possible mass roundups of "militants."

Now, unrest stirs anew, and we see this -- a memo from C. Dean Rhody,
Director of Resource Management for the Department of the Army, July 27
1994:

<BLOCKQUOTE>Enclosed for your review and comment is the draft Army
regulation on civilian inmate labor utilization and establishment of prison
camps on Army installations. The draft regulation is the compilation of all
policy message (sic), Civilian Inmate Labor Oversight Committee policy
decisions, and lessons learned to date. The new regulation will provide the
following: 
a. Policy for civilian inmate utilization on installations 
b. Procedures for preparing requests to establish civilian inmate labor
programs on installations 
c. Procedures for preparing requests to establish civilian prison camps on
installations.</BLOCKQUOTE>

The draft plan once attached to the memo has not surfaced. But
Congressman Henry Gonzalez of Texas admitted in an interview, "The truth is,
yes, you do have these standby provisions…whereby you could, in the name of
stopping terrorism…invoke the military and arrest Americans and put them in
detention camps."

An agency of control

Whatever agency builds the camps, the rumor mill knows who will operate
them. FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency. FEMA, they say, will
become dictator of America in a future "emergency." It will hold absolute
power over the infrastructure, productive capacity, and citizenry of the
country.

Whether FEMA will ever do this is an open question. That it has been
granted the (unconstitutional) authority to do so is fact.

FEMA was established entirely by presidential orders. Congress offered no
advice, consent -- or objection. The agency became official when Jimmy
Carter signed Executive Order 12148 in 1979, but the concept behind FEMA
flowed from the minds of John Kennedy and Richard Nixon.

Kennedy signed a series of orders granting the federal government the
power to seize a variety of private or local functions in event of
emergency.

Nixon consolidated and enlarged these powers in 1969 with EO 11490.

Gerald Ford later signed EO 11921 which, in the words of Dr. Henry
Kliemann, political scientist at Boston University, "…was understood by
FEMA to mean that one day they would be in charge of the country. As these
bureaucrats saw it, FEMA's real mission was to wait, prepare, and then take
over when some 'situation' seemed serious enough to turn the United States
into a police state."

Once Carter made FEMA official, Ronald Reagan -- far from the lovable
bumbler or noble freedom lover he's pictured in retrospect -- gave the
agency a distinctly paranoid, military slant by appointing as its head
General Louis Guiffrida.

Among other qualifications, Guiffrida had written a paper advocating the
declaration of martial law in response to black militancy. His plan could
have sent millions of blacks to relocation camps. He also wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>Martial rule comes into existence upon a determination (not a
declaration) by the senior military commander that civil government must be
replaced because it is no longer functioning, anyway.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Defining "emergency"

Nevertheless, in the public and media mind, FEMA is simply a helpful --
though sometimes slow-moving -- service organization. It shows up after
earthquakes and floods to rescue stranded puppies. It parcels out money so
communities can rebuild.

Maybe. But FEMA isn't, and never has been, an agency to aid average
Americans.
FEMA's chief -- but largely secret -- mission has always been "Continuity of
Government." Its job is to make sure that federal control continues at all
costs.

This has led to construction of dozens of secret underground bunkers,
capable of sustaining life for the select few allowed into them. It has led
to FEMA budgets in which millions are allocated to "disaster relief" while
billions go to unspecified "other purposes." And that's not to mention the
unknown sums in black budget appropriations the agency receives via the
Defense Department.

For many years, FEMA denied the existence of its primary bunker, Mt.
Weather in West Virginia. At 1975 hearings, retired Air Force General Leslie
W. Bray, director of FEMA's predecessor, the Federal Preparedness Agency,
stonewalled a U.S. Senate subcommittee, insisting, "I am not at liberty to
describe precisely what is the role and the mission and the capability that
we have at Mount Weather, or at any other precise location."

However, it's an open secret that an entire parallel -- unelected --
government is headquartered at Mt. Weather, ready to take over the country
in an emergency.

Disturbing as this may be to some, most Americans would probably take
comfort in the belief that some form of government would continue in an
emergency.

But what is an "emergency"? According to Carter's order, it is "…any
accidental, natural, man-caused, or wartime emergency or threat thereof,
which causes or may cause substantial injury or harm to the population or
substantial damage to or loss of property."

In other words, an emergency is anything the president or the director
of FEMA declares it to be. Because to the professionally paranoid,
anything -- even civil disagreement -- can be a threat.

It's worth noting that, in the same 1975 hearings at which the Senate
failed to learn the purpose of Mt. Weather, Senators did learn that:

<BLOCKQUOTE>….the facility held dossiers on at least 100,000 Americans.
[Senator] John Tunney later alleged that the Mount Weather computers can
obtain millions of pieces of additional information on the personal lives of
American citizens simply by tapping the data stored at any of the other
ninety-six Federal Relocation Centers.

The subcommittee concluded that Mount Weather's databases "operate with
few, if any, safeguards or guidelines."</BLOCKQUOTE>

And that was in the days when computer power was measured in kilobytes,
not gigabytes and terabytes. Bill Clinton has "modernized" FEMA and elevated
it to a cabinet-level department. Under his crony-appointee James Lee Witt,
FEMA has increasingly insinuated itself into the doings of local
governments, pushing them to pass zoning ordinances and even conducting a
SWAT-style raid on a county office when it suspected misuse of flood control
funds.

These are odd roles for a federal emergency management agency.

But what about those camps?

Clinton also signed Executive Order 12919, which authorizes any FEMA
department head "…to employ persons of outstanding experience and ability
without compensation" in event of emergency. There is, of course, a simple
one-word description of such laborers: slaves.

And where might these FEMA-commanded slaves work and live? According to
Roland C. Eyears:

<BLOCKQUOTE>[FEMA] operates widely dispersed, newly constructed detention
facilities which might be mistaken for hospitals. How curious that such
activity has become common at closed military bases. Many include rail spurs
in a time when there are no legitimate commodities with the bulk and weight
which would justify rail hauling.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, Eyears offers no proof of his assertion. But the rumors
don't die. There is this, from the Internet:

<BLOCKQUOTE>At a dinner following a gun show…[in 1994], a friend
introduced me to a trucker….The trucker said that for several years, he'd
been making deliveries to a military base in Montana. According to him, the
base was one of those that was supposed to have just been closed. Yet, he
said, he'd made several deliveries there in just the previous few months.
The only difference, he said, was that prior to the "closing" he'd drive on
to the base, be directed to a warehouse a few miles away, and would unload
at a loading dock. Now, he said, he was being met at the gate and not
allowed to drive onto the base.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it's another "friend of a friend" story. However, it's no rumor that
Congress has on several occasions proposed to convert closed military bases
into prison camps. C. Dean Rhody's memo lends credence to the idea that
camps are under construction now. Have FEMA and the Army simply done it
using some of those black-budget billions?

FEMA bureaucrats may be tempted by paranoia and the prospect of unlimited
power. The standing army, which the founders of the country so passionately
warned us against, is casting about for something to do. By profession, both
groups have a mindset that envisions danger everywhere.

Propaganda keeps Americans in fear of "terrorism." Anyone who speaks out
against government abuse is branded an "extremist," a "hate-monger," even a
potential terrorist. The demonization is eerily evocative of what the Jews
and Japanese-Americans endured long ago. It could happen.

But the skeptic still asks, "Where's the proof?"

The road to Heart Mountain

In December 1997, a memo landed on my desk. It listed two dozen
"verified" sites where FEMA labor camps were being built -- right now. One
was "Hart Mountain (sic), renovated WWII Japanese-American special
internment detention facility."

We were in the area. So there we were, my significant other and I,
bumping over ice-lumped roads, following a local's instructions to "look for
the old smokestack on the bluff."

We leave Highway Alt. 14 and plow uphill on County Road 19. We rise onto
the bluff where the old camp was located. And the wind continues to howl
across -- nothing. A fallow beet field. A realm of snow.

To the right, far away, sit four crumbling buildings, all that remains of
a city-sized prison. Other structures were sold and hauled away years ago.
To the left, a small forest of plaques lies under heaps of white.

We get out and brush snow off the plaques. We find years of testimony to
guilt and regret. We find honor for the young men who fought for the country
that despised them. We find words of useless repentance etched in stone
after stone.

Later, we plod through six inches of untracked snow, across the sagebrush
plain, to the derelict buildings, part of an old administration complex.
They're rotting, but curiously untouched by vandals. Doors still swing
easily and windows hold fragments of glass. The interior walls, though
crumbling, are still institutional green. Next to a disused chimney, a
hinged box holds a 50-year-old supply of kindling. And Charles looks up and
finds, caught under a light fixture, a scrap of wallpaper as bright in this
dry climate as it must have been in 1942. Green leaves and red roses.

But there's nothing here to renovate. And the only new buildings are far
away -- prosperous farms profiting from land the internees made fertile.
There's certainly no plank-and-barbed-wire concentration camp waiting to
receive another group of demonized Americans. No U.N. troops standing guard.
No FEMA bureaucrats waiting to implant biochips in incoming prisoners.

There's nothing human at Heart Mountain. The ghosts themselves have blown
away.
There is nothing, nothing, nothing…nothing at all.

Yet, as we turn to begin the long, bleak drive back to Montana, I can't
help but remember that they housed them all in barns, all those tens of
thousands of Americans, as they waited for the camps to be hammered
together. They rounded them up and took them to fairgrounds before the camps
were ready. All it takes to turn a fairground into a prison is a few cots
while they wait for something more permanent. All it took to provide the
wartime permanence of Heart Mountain was two months of construction.

And we, of course, have something America didn't have in World War II --
dozens of de-militarized military bases scattered all around the country --
barracks, barbed wire, checkpoints and all. Waiting.

I feel silly having pursued a chimera down the Wyoming winds. But at the
same time, I don't feel safe. Or free. The camps may no longer stand on the
cold deserts of Wyoming or the shimmering deserts of Arizona. But they're
there. In the executive orders. In the plans. In the memos. In the minds of
those with a will to control.

It's a will that has swelled through 50 additional years of unchecked
power. A will that will burn children and shoot mothers and say the
innocents were to blame for their own destruction. A will that engineers the
survival of government while treating free people as resources or enemies.

Next time, I think, wind and loss won't be our worst punishments.

For more information on FEMA:

<A HREF="http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon6.html"
target="Wolf_Lnk">"FEMA: The Secret Government,"</A> by Harry V. Martin

<A HREF="http://www.thewinds.org/arcidx.html"
target="Wolf_Lnk">"Executive Orders: Bonfire for the Constitution"</A>

<A HREF="http://4bypass.com/stories/fema1.html" target="Wolf_Lnk">"FEMA:
Blueprint for Tyranny,"</A> by Roland C. Eyears

<A HREF="http://livelinks.com/sumeria/politics/weather.html"
target="Wolf_Lnk">"Mount Weather"</A>

And for the official, sanitized view, <A HREF="http://www.fema.gov"
target="Wolf_Lnk">FEMA's own web site.</A>

<BLOCKQUOTE>© 1998 Claire Wolfe. This article may be reprinted for
non-commercial purposes, as long as it is reprinted in full with no content
changes whatsoever, and is accompanied by this credit line. The article may
not be re-titled, edited or excerpted (beyond the limits of the fair use
doctrine) without the written permission of the author. For-profit
publications will be expected to pay a nominal reprint fee. 
</BLOCKQUOTE>
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------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Sroufe" <deep...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:38:05 -0700
Subject: [prj] klintoon "volunteers" to Sudan??

Sudan: An African Kosovo
By Gary Lane
June 22, 1999

- -- We've heard much in the past few months about atrocities in Kosovo.
Thousands have died there...but in the African nation of Sudan, a
sixteen-year civil war has claimed nearly two million lives. At least four
million people have been displaced. No end appears in sight.

Colorado schoolteacher Barb Vogel calls it an "African Holocaust."

Kansas Senator Sam Brownback asks, "If what we are about is stopping
oppression in the world, then why aren't we in the Sudan?"

More people of conscience are asking questions and searching for solutions
to stop the civil war in Sudan; to stop the forced starvation and hunger, to
put an end to slavery, to stop Khartoum's holy jihad against black
Christians and animists, to stop the continual aerial bombardment of
innocent civilians.

Officials from Norwegian People's Aid -- a non-governmental, humanitarian
organization -- tour the only hospital servicing about a million southern
Sudanese in and around the city of Yei.

NPA funds the hospital here, and even United States taxpayers have supported
this hospital with grants from U.S. A.I.D.

Usually the beds are full here, but recently they were empty: Another
bombing raid from an Antonov aircraft has destroyed much of the hospital.

Halle Johannsen, secretary general of NPA, said of the bombing raid, " It's
a flagrant violation of the international humanitarian convention on the
conduct of war...it's to terrorize the people..."

Many southern Sudanese fear returning to the target of frequent attack. Some
of the sick and injured have left the hospital, only to die from lack of
medical care.

Hospitals aren't the only civilian facilities targeted by Khartoum. A school
in the village of Narus was bombed last Christmas. Many of the students had
left early to spend the holidays with their families, but some remained
behind to continue their studies. Fortunately, no child was killed in the
attack.

Charles Jacobs, of the American Anti-Slavery Group, recently urged Congress
to support a no fly zone for south Sudan saying, "If the world can stop
Saddam Hussein and limit his government in his own country from killing his
own citizens, from gassing the Kurds again, why can't we protect the
villages of south Sudan?"

Congressman Donald Payne is proposing legislation that would give support to
Sudanese groups opposing the radical Islamic government. He says, "At one
point in time we have to take a side and time has passed...and we must give
support to those who are fighting for freedom."

Congressman Frank Wolf of Virginia has repeatedly called on the Clinton
administration to appoint a special envoy to help negotiate peace in Sudan.
So far, the President has rejected that idea.

While the U.S. Congress and the Clinton administration debate Sudan policy,
the people of south Sudan say the Antonov's will still come -- more innocent
civilians will die, more schools will be hit, more hospitals will be
destroyed. In the meantime they say they are looking skyward for more
Antonovs. Many are fearing for their lives and praying and hoping that the
next bombs that drop will not have their names written on them.

Sudanese Christians are calling on the name of the Lord, looking to a
heavenly source to protect them from the perils of war.

The Reverend Joseph Lemme is a pastor in Loka, Sudan. He says, "The greatest
miracle is God's saving power to His people. Through God's grace, He is
keeping His people alive."

CBN Worldreach -- in partnership with Strategic World Impact (SWI) -- is
helping Reverend Lemme and others provide material and spiritual relief to
the people of south Sudan.

Young Issac is a blind orphan. He recently received Christ. Later, he and
his brother also had some of their physical needs met in the form of a
blanket to keep them warm from frigid nighttime temperatures.

People attending a service in Loka were given Bibles provided by CBN's
Operation Blessing.

SWI's Kevin Turner gave Reverend Lemme materials for pastoral training.
Lemme says there is a great need to train clergy and lay people and to build
churches in south Sudan.

Members of pastor Lemme's church in Kenye, Sudan often worship outdoors.

"During rainy season, people cannot come together because there is no
shelter for them," says pastor Lemme.

Worldreach and SWI have provided Reverend Lemme with the funds to build a
church, a church office, and guest house in Kenye, Sudan. Despite inclement
weather, the services will go on.

And in the village of Narus, the CBN Worldreach/SWI partnership has helped
plant the very first Baptist church in south Sudan. Christians will soon
worship inside a church building rather than under a tree.

The two ministries have worked together to train pastors and to commission
these two Sudanese Baptists to spread the gospel inside Sudan.

Pastor John Monychon explains his vision for his people saying, " 'I will
send them two by two to preach the Gospel and one church will born three
other churches, three churches will born six churches..."

Joseph Lemme says ongoing prayer and support from Americans will help
Sudanese Christians remain firm in their faith.

"There is one body and one Spirit," says Lemme. "We need to come into
partnership so that you'll be the bridge between us and your church at
home."

"The Sudanese people -- they never abandon their love in God and their faith
in God despite all their suffering."

CBN NOW
CBN Partners are how we are able to exist. The more people who partner, the
more resources we have to make a difference in people's lives through the
CBNnow website, The 700 Club TV show, CBN WorldReach, Operation Blessing
International, and other outreach ministries. Become a CBN partner now.
http://www.cbn.org/newsstand/stories/sudan.asp

"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
--- Thomas Jefferson

"No blood for blow jobs"
--a placard

Bard

Visit me at:
The Center for Exposing Corruption in the Federal Government
http://www.xld.com/public/center/center.htm

Federal Government defined:
....a benefit/subsidy protection racket!

------------------------------

From: Christopher Herman <christopher...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:09:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [prj] A moral question

Free Rare/Out-of-Print Book Searches - Ruling Class/Conspiracy Experts:
E-Mail: ra...@a-albionic.com
****************************************************************************
*** << END

OK, this scenario is derived from the "Party of Five"
episode which I watched last night...

The owner of a restauraunt has a contest to come up with a
sloagn for the restauraunt. The winner get 52 free meals
and the man who wins chooses to redeem some of those free
meals immediately by inviting some homeless friends to eat
dinner with him. The problem is, they haven't taken a bath
or shower in a while. The other customers eating there
object to the stench of the people and the owner removes
the homeless customers.

Was he right to do so?

Some people don't think so. The man gets bad press, and is
boycotted by some. As a result, his business goes down,
and he has to lay off, like, half his staff.

What should he do to remedy the situation?

- -----

In a related matter, Objectivist George Reisman has written
that laws against segregation are not necessary in a
totally free market because the businessmen who segregate
would be run out of business by those who did not.

Does anyone detact any holes in that argument?

And I forget...was segregation in the South actually a law
or was it merely a practice?

===
Christopher Herman
Check out my Home Page-
http://www.jpostmail.com/jpost/users/Christopher1
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

From: Christopher Herman <christopher...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [prj] Regarding Chomsky and Zinn

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This comes from a digest I'm subscribed to on another
e-mail address. I was wondering what everyone's opinion is
of Chomsky, whether that Cambodia bit is true, and what
everyone's opinion of Howard Zinn is...

And weren't both men mentioned in the movie "Good Will
Hunting"? I forget...

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Subject: Fwd: [FHChildren] Digest Number 309
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> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 09:10:13 EDT
> From: ac...@astro.ocis.temple.edu
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 306
>
> To answer a few questions:
>
> >4. Has Natalie Merchant ever been pregnant? An acquaintance of mine
> >says that "Tea for Two" was a description of her own pregnancy, but I
> >don't recall Merchant having children, and I would hate to think that
> >she has had an abortion...
>
> Natalie doesn't have any children and so far as I know has never been
> pregnant. She also said that she personally considers abortion murder
> and wouldn't have one even if she was raped, although she's pro-choice
> as a matter of law.
>
>
> >5. Natalie Merchant is noted for her Leftist politics, but does she
> >have any fans who are right-wing in their politics? I'm not exactly
> >right-wing, but I do not agree with Merchant's politics...
>
> Well, I do remember a couple of people here saying they like to listen
> to Natalie's music while reading Ayn Rand. I'm very liberal on some
> issues and borderline reactionary on others.
>
> Regarding Natalie's politics, she once mentioned to me that Howard
> Zinn's _A People's History of the United States_ changed her whole view
> of history. I subsequently read the book, which is a wholescale
> socialist rewriting of U.S. history. Which isn't to say it isn't very
> good - I wish I could write one-tenth as well as he did. I just
> disagree with almost every one of its premises. Later on, I asked her
> if she liked the much less politically-slanted history book I gave
> her. She called it a "conservative" book.
>
>
> >6. Weren't some of you mentioning Chomsky? Well, he has some
> >interesting things to say, in fact, I have a book on Trilateralism by
> >Holly Sklar, who is kind of an associate. But would Chomsky be on a
> >Natalie reading list? If so, then shame on Natalie for supporting
> >Clinton because Chomsky certainly wouldn't...
>
> I don't think Natalie exactly supports Clinton. She called him "that
> bastard" at Lilith Fair last summer, and clearly has a big problem with
> the Kosovo and Bin Laden bombings. But she seems to think that the
> Lewinsky affair was a "petty scandal" that only diverted attention from
> more serious problems.
>
> I'm sure Natalie read Chomsky, as the "manufactured consent" discussion
> suggests. She seems to agree with him on many issues; for example she
> calls advertising "almost mind-control". I have to say that I have a
> very low opinion of Chomsky. He took a trip to Cambodia at the height
> of the killing fields, then said the Cambodian government wasn't
> killing anyone and in fact was embarking on a new era of peace and
> equality. It wouldn't be quite so galling except that he made an
> entire career on claiming that he sees through governmental lies and
> gives the people the truth. So far as I know, Chomsky has never
> apologized for this.
>
> Alan

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------------------------------

From: Christopher Herman <christopher...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:15:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [prj] Fwd: Natalie and Chomsky, etc.

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This is my response to the man's comments, BTW...

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> > Message: 1
> > Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 09:10:13 EDT
> > From: ac...@astro.ocis.temple.edu
> > Subject: Re: Digest Number 306
>
> > Natalie doesn't have any children and so far as I know has never been
> > pregnant. She also said that she personally considers abortion murder
> > and wouldn't have one even if she was raped, although she's pro-choice
> > as a matter of law.
>
> CH: Hmmm. Very interesting. Not very logical, but very interesting. Do
remember where I can find that interview?
>
> > Well, I do remember a couple of people here saying they like to listen
> > to Natalie's music while reading Ayn Rand. I'm very liberal on some
> > issues and borderline reactionary on others.
> >
> > Regarding Natalie's politics, she once mentioned to me that Howard
> > Zinn's _A People's History of the United States_ changed her whole view
> > of history. I subsequently read the book, which is a wholescale
> > socialist rewriting of U.S. history. Which isn't to say it isn't very
> > good - I wish I could write one-tenth as well as he did. I just
> > disagree with almost every one of its premises. Later on, I asked her
> > if she liked the much less politically-slanted history book I gave
> > her. She called it a "conservative" book.
>
> CH: What book did you give her? You met her? When?
> Where?
>
> > I don't think Natalie exactly supports Clinton. She called him "that
> > bastard" at Lilith Fair last summer, and clearly has a big problem with
> > the Kosovo and Bin Laden bombings.
>
> CH: As do I!
>
> But she seems to think that the
> > Lewinsky affair was a "petty scandal" that only diverted attention from
> > more serious problems.
>
> CH: I agree. It is incomprehensible why Starr and the Republicans pursued
impeachment on those grounds, when there is so much more that Clinton has
done which is far more substantial and far more openly and seriously
illegal. Part of the problem may lie with the fact that if the Republicans
actually went to uncover all the crimes of Clinton, they would at the same
time uncover the crimes of a great many fellow Republicans...
>
> > I'm sure Natalie read Chomsky, as the "manufactured consent" discussion
> > suggests. She seems to agree with him on many issues; for example she
> > calls advertising "almost mind-control". I have to say that I have a
> > very low opinion of Chomsky. He took a trip to Cambodia at the height
> > of the killing fields, then said the Cambodian government wasn't
> > killing anyone and in fact was embarking on a new era of peace and
> > equality. It wouldn't be quite so galling except that he made an
> > entire career on claiming that he sees through governmental lies and
> > gives the people the truth. So far as I know, Chomsky has never
> > apologized for this.
>
> CH: Hmmm...I know some people feel that Chomsky is, for lack of a more
sophisticated sounding phrase, an agent of disinformation for the ruling
classes, that he absorbs much of the opposition against bad government while
misdirecting it into a direction that will benefit the ruling class...
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------

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------------------------------

From: Dan Parker <xpa...@telusplanet.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:03:29 -0600
Subject: Re: [prj] A moral question

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Change the money system. Nothing else will work.
Something that has a cancerous foundation always
results in a continual set of damned if do, damned
if you don't scenarios at various levels. There is
no scientific reason for the people to be homeless,
and basic ethical reasons for them not to be homeless.
In view of community standards about personal hygiene,
the owner could cater to his customers without
depriving others of any basic needs, if the productive
capacity of modern technology was utilized at all
in an efficient and ethical manner (which would happen
naturally and democratically, were the people not
continually lied to about the nature of wealth and money).
Dan

Christopher Herman wrote:
>
> OK, this scenario is derived from the "Party of Five"
> episode which I watched last night...
>
> The owner of a restauraunt has a contest to come up with a
> sloagn for the restauraunt. The winner get 52 free meals
> and the man who wins chooses to redeem some of those free
> meals immediately by inviting some homeless friends to eat
> dinner with him. The problem is, they haven't taken a bath
> or shower in a while. The other customers eating there
> object to the stench of the people and the owner removes
> the homeless customers.
>
> Was he right to do so?
>
> Some people don't think so. The man gets bad press, and is
> boycotted by some. As a result, his business goes down,
> and he has to lay off, like, half his staff.
>
> What should he do to remedy the situation?
>
> -----
>
> In a related matter, Objectivist George Reisman has written
> that laws against segregation are not necessary in a
> totally free market because the businessmen who segregate
> would be run out of business by those who did not.
>
> Does anyone detact any holes in that argument?
>
> And I forget...was segregation in the South actually a law
> or was it merely a practice?
>
> ===
> Christopher Herman
> Check out my Home Page-
> http://www.jpostmail.com/jpost/users/Christopher1
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><
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END

------------------------------

From: Dan Parker <xpa...@telusplanet.net>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:11:39 -0600
Subject: Re: [prj] Fwd: Natalie and Chomsky, etc.

> > > I'm sure Natalie read Chomsky, as the "manufactured consent"
discussion
> > > suggests. She seems to agree with him on many issues; for example she
> > > calls advertising "almost mind-control". I have to say that I have a
> > > very low opinion of Chomsky. He took a trip to Cambodia at the height
> > > of the killing fields, then said the Cambodian government wasn't
> > > killing anyone and in fact was embarking on a new era of peace and
> > > equality. It wouldn't be quite so galling except that he made an
> > > entire career on claiming that he sees through governmental lies and
> > > gives the people the truth. So far as I know, Chomsky has never
> > > apologized for this.
> >
> > CH: Hmmm...I know some people feel that Chomsky is, for lack of a more
sophisticated sounding phrase, an agent of disinformation for the ruling
classes, that he absorbs much of the opposition against bad government while
misdirecting it into a direction that will benefit the ruling class...

Noam Chomsky replied to a charge by Monetary Reform
Magazine that the debt virus fact was a false theory. The
magazine gamely published Chomsky's letter, along with various
rebuttals from Canadian politicians, while continuing to present
evidence showing how the debt virus worked. In the last issue
of Monetary Reform, Chomsky published an article, which did
not directly acknowledge the monetary problem; but one can
assume some tacit support. Again, Chomsky, like everyone else,
is caught in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.
If the current ruling class were removed this afternoon, and the
same structure stayed in place, by evening there would be a new
line-up that would be as bad or worse in its behaviour. It's
time to change the structure to reflect the new age. Y2K is
the best time to do this imo.
Dan
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><
> A Growing Selection of A-albionic's Books Can Be Browsed and Purchased
Conveniently in the Shopping Cart at http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html <<
END

------------------------------

From: Christopher Herman <christopher...@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:20:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [prj] A moral question

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CH: Ah, but the question is what would be the moral thing
to do in the context of the present system...

- --- Dan Parker <xpa...@telusplanet.net> wrote:
> Change the money system. Nothing else will work.
> Something that has a cancerous foundation always
> results in a continual set of damned if do, damned
> if you don't scenarios at various levels. There is
> no scientific reason for the people to be homeless,
> and basic ethical reasons for them not to be homeless.
> In view of community standards about personal hygiene,
> the owner could cater to his customers without
> depriving others of any basic needs, if the productive
> capacity of modern technology was utilized at all
> in an efficient and ethical manner (which would happen
> naturally and democratically, were the people not
> continually lied to about the nature of wealth and
> money).
> Dan
>
> Christopher Herman wrote:
> >
> > OK, this scenario is derived from the "Party of Five"
> > episode which I watched last night...
> >
> > The owner of a restauraunt has a contest to come up
> with a
> > sloagn for the restauraunt. The winner get 52 free
> meals
> > and the man who wins chooses to redeem some of those
> free
> > meals immediately by inviting some homeless friends to
> eat
> > dinner with him. The problem is, they haven't taken a
> bath
> > or shower in a while. The other customers eating there
> > object to the stench of the people and the owner
> removes
> > the homeless customers.
> >
> > Was he right to do so?
> >
> > Some people don't think so. The man gets bad press,
> and is
> > boycotted by some. As a result, his business goes
> down,
> > and he has to lay off, like, half his staff.
> >
> > What should he do to remedy the situation?
> >
> > -----
> >
> > In a related matter, Objectivist George Reisman has
> written
> > that laws against segregation are not necessary in a
> > totally free market because the businessmen who
> segregate
> > would be run out of business by those who did not.
> >
> > Does anyone detact any holes in that argument?
> >
> > And I forget...was segregation in the South actually a
> law
> > or was it merely a practice?
> >
> > ===
> > Christopher Herman
> > Check out my Home Page-
> > http://www.jpostmail.com/jpost/users/Christopher1
> >
> _________________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get your free @yahoo.com address at
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><
>
> A Growing Selection of A-albionic's Books Can Be Browsed
> and Purchased Conveniently in the Shopping Cart at
> http://a-albionic.com/shopping.html << END
>

------------------------------

From: nes...@sfbg.com (nessie)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:17:30 -0700
Subject: Re(2): [prj] A moral question

Change the system.

------------------------------

From: "Lloyd Miller" <ll...@a-albionic.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:32:35 -0400
Subject: [prj] German Secret Weapons of World War 2 by Rudolf Lusar

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Anyone have any inside information on the following quote from Lusar, an
apparently well informed officer in a Nazi technical unit about German
wartime technological advances:

"Flying saucers have been whirling round the world since 1947,
suddenly turning up here and there, soaring in and darting off again at
unprecendented speed with flames encircling the rim of the saucer's disc.
They have been located by radar, pursued by fighters and yet nobody so far
succeeded in establishing the existence of such a "flying saucer" or managed
to ram or shoot one down. . .Experts and collaborators in this work confirm
that the first projects, called "flying discs", were undertaken in 1941.
The designs for these "flying discs" were drawn up by the German experts
Schriever, Habermohl, and Mieth, and the Italian Bellonzo. Habermohl and
Schriever chose a wide-surface ring which rotated round a fixed,
cupola-shaped cockpit. . . Within three minutes they climbed to an
altitute of 12,400 m. and reache a speed of 2,000 km/hr in horizontal
flight(!). It was intended ultimately to achieve speeds of 4,000 km./hr. .
. . existing models were destroyed but the plant in Breslau where Miethe
worked fell into the hands of the Russians who took all the material and
experts to Siberia, where work o these "flying saucers" is being
successfully continued. . .Schriever escaped from Prague in time; Habermohl,
however, is probably in the Soviet Union, as nothing is know of this fate.
The former designer Miethe is in the United States and, as far as is known,
is building "flying saucers" for the United States and Canada at the A. V.
Roe works. . .Years ago, the US Air Force received orders not to fire at
"flying saucers". . . diameters of 16, 42, 45, and 75 m. and speeds of
7,000 km/hr. In 1952, "flying saucers" were definitely established over
Korea and Press reports said they were seen also during the NATO manoeuvres
in Alsace in the Autumn of 1954."

German Secret Weapons of the Second
World War by Lusar pp 164-166
Spiral Bound Xerographic Copies
from A-albionic @ $39.00

http://www.msen.com/~lloyd/order.html

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