Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 20)
David Von Pein
-----------------------------------------------------------------
SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From December 2005, April
2006, July 2006, and October 2006.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Didn't Dr. Humes say that the bullet
that hit JFK in the back did not transit the body? If so, what does
that "trump" in your view?
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- The FINAL, OFFICIAL autopsy report trumps that
observation, that's what.
Sure, Humes (via his pinky probe) originally thought the bullet did
not transit. He soon discovered BETTER evidence, such as the X-rays
and his conversation with Dr. Perry on Nov. 23 (plus just plain common
sense too, which is allowed to be utilized in an autopsy room, btw).
Dr. Humes, therefore, amended his original evaluation.
Or are you a believer in "No Take Backs"? In other words, whatever
Humes said FIRST must, by all means, be set in stone FOREVER. Is that
it?
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Please explain how you connected the first shot to {Lee
Harvey} Oswald and the one that caused {James} Tague's wound, which
you previously admitted was a 'guess'?
DVP -- Okay.....
1.) Overwhelming evidence of THREE shots (exactly) being fired/heard.
2.) THREE bullet shells (exactly) being found in the place where a
sniper was seen firing a weapon. (The ONLY sniper who was seen by
anyone on November 22, 1963.)
3.) Lee Harvey Oswald's own weapon being found on the same floor from
where a sniper was firing at the motorcade.
4.) TWO bullets and TWO bullets only being "connected" to the wounds
of all victims in the Presidential limousine. Which leaves ONE bullet
to be accounted for (by way of #1 and #2 above).
And since I don't cry "planted" or "faked" or "substituted" at the
drop of a hat, I have no doubt that Bullet #CE399 from Oswald's gun is
a "real" bullet connected to this case. And if it's "connected" to
this case, then the ONLY way that bullet gets into Parkland Hospital
is by way of a victim being wounded by that bullet when the limo
passed by Oswald's gun at 12:30 PM on 11/22/63.
5.) Almost nobody in Dallas' Dealey Plaza heard shots coming from
MULTIPLE directions, with a majority of earwitnesses hearing ALL of
the shots coming from the rear; i.e., from the general direction of
the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Number 5 isn't quite as solid and ironclad as #1 thru #4, but it is
still fairly important, given the huge 95%+ figure of "One Direction"
witnesses, an incredibly-high percentile if multiple shooters were
really firing rifles at President Kennedy from a variety of locations
in Dealey Plaza.
Final analysis of above:
Is the "missed/Tague" shot "connected" to Oswald via ballistics? No,
quite obviously not. But it's not "connected" to anyone else or anyone
else's gun either. Since it's not connected directly to a specific
rifle, does that mean in a CTer's book that it COULDN'T have come from
Oswald's gun?
Is the "missed/Tague" shot "connected" to Oswald and his rifle via a
little bit of common sense (based on the totality of the evidence in
the JFK case)?
My answer to that last question -- Yes...absolutely.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b078af0164e500df
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- The question was one of the {Connally} thigh wound, and if DVP
could tell us how the wound was caused.
DVP -- The math is fairly simple (unless you do the math with a
conspiracy theorist's calculator, then it becomes overly and
needlessly complicated, of course).....
Bullet CE399 entered John Connally's back, exited his chest, and then
struck his right wrist. Let's look at some HSCA testimony.....
~~~~~
MR. WOLF: "You can, however, today state for the first time
scientifically that CE399 did cause the injuries to Governor
Connally's wrist?"
DR. VINCENT GUINN: "Yes sir, those two match so closely that I would
say that such was the case."
MR. WOLF: "Would you state that your conclusion is more probable than
not, highly probable, or what is the degree of certainty of your
conclusion?"
DR. GUINN: "I would say highly probable, yes. I would not want to say
how high, whether it was 99 percent or 90 percent or 99.9 percent. I
can't make a calculation like that."
MR. WOLF: "You would state it is highly probable that the injuries to
Governor Connally's wrist came from the so-called pristine bullet?"
DR. GUINN: "That is correct."
~~~~~
.....That bullet (CE399) then exited the wrist in a virtually-whole
condition and went -- somewhere -- correct? I think even a rabid CTer
who hates the SBT like many people despise their mother-in-law would
have to agree that the bullet that struck John Connally's wrist did
not STAY in his wrist and it went someplace else. So, WHERE could it
have gone?
The bullet was on about a 25-degree downward trajectory after it
passed through Connally's chest wall (as it almost perfectly followed
the 25-degree declination of the Governor's fifth rib, per the
testimony of Dr. Robert Shaw).
Now I'm not saying the bullet couldn't have been deflected upward (or
further downward for that matter) as a result of hitting the wrist of
Connally. Sure, it could have deflected off of the wrist bone. But if
it did, and yet did not go into JBC's thigh....where did the bullet
go? Did it conveniently deflect upward off the wrist and bounce out of
the car (where it was never recovered)?
That theory is possible, sure. But it becomes less and less probable
when all the evidence and all of Connally's wounds are taken into
consideration.
And if a fragment from a non-CE399 missile caused the thigh wound,
CTers have to accept TWO things that are quite interesting and
coincidental in nature (without any real proof that they happened,
because there are NO BULLETS OR FRAGMENTS IN EVIDENCE in this regard
that would verify that JBC's thigh was hit by a non-CE399
projectile).....
1.) A CTer would have to believe that a non-399 fragment went into
Connally's thigh, causing a small superficial wound, and then that
fragment (or whole bullet even) was never seen again by anybody.*
* = Or do CTers think that one of the very small fragments found under
Nellie Connally's seat caused the thigh wound to JBC? Or maybe one of
the two larger front-seat fragments caused it?
But, then again, I thought most CTers were of the opinion that those
front-seat fragments (which came out of Oswald's own gun) were
"planted" there later on by the evil cover-up agents who wanted to
frame Oswald. Many CTers do believe that tale. So, obviously, such
fragments (via such a theory) couldn't have wounded Governor Connally
during the actual shooting on November 22.
2.) And CTers would also have to accept the notion that a different
(non-399) missile just happened to hit Connally in a place on his body
(the left thigh) which ALSO just happens to coincide very nicely (in
an "alignment" sort of way) to a place on his body where a bullet
would (or certainly could very easily) have ended up if the Single-
Bullet Theory is a fact.
And that thigh wound just happens to also be a minor, superficial type
of wound that perfectly explains the last remaining part of the SBT
(i.e., the bullet had very little energy left in it after passing
through two bodies and was nearly 'spent' by the time it reached John
Connally's thigh, thus causing only the very minor leg injury).
How can anyone deny the fact that (via a non-SBT shooting scenario)
the "SBT Similarities" are simply amazing. This is much like the other
amazing "coincidence" that CTers are forced to accept in any anti-SBT
proposal -- i.e., the almost perfect "lining up" of the first 3 wounds
that make up the SBT (Kennedy's upper-back wound, Kennedy's throat
wound, and Connally's back wound).
Whenever a CTer offers up alternate theories of pure guesswork
regarding various parts of the SBT (and we're rarely, if ever, treated
to a full-fledged shot-by-shot CT scenario...we usually just get
piecemeal conjecture, like this theory which claims "A Non-CE399
Fragment Must Have Caused Connally's Thigh Wound"), it only serves to
further reinforce the logicality and believability of the Single-
Bullet Conclusion all the more, in my eyes.
Every single element favoring the likelihood of just one bullet
causing the seven wounds to JFK and JBC is right there for all to see
and study; and yet so many conspiracists want to throw common sense
out the nearest window whenever discussing the subject.
I still can't help but wonder....why?
-------------------------------------------
DVP (October 22, 2006) -- I was recently reminded of something that
Vincent Bugliosi is almost certainly bound to bring up in his John F.
Kennedy publication next May, and is something he mentions often in
his O.J. Simpson book and follow-up video series re. the Simpson case
-- and that is what Vince calls the "In The Air Phenomenon".
Vincent claims, and I agree, that there was something "in the air"
surrounding the O.J. case (right from the beginning) that did not bode
well for the prosecution (miserable as the lawyers were) in the
Simpson case.
And I can envision the very same type of "invisible" but "in the air"
argument being made about the JFK case too. So many people over the
40+ years since '63 have been "conditioned" to think that a conspiracy
ended John Kennedy's life; it's almost built-in...or "in the air"
everywhere you go when the topic is brought up.
Such a built-in kind of "There Was A Conspiracy" mindset, even from
people who have rarely (if ever) studied the case in any depth at all,
is something that's a bit difficult to fight indeed....as VB has
probably found out.
I've talked with many CTers who don't seem sure about much of anything
surrounding the JFK murder (or Officer J.D. Tippit's killing
either)....except that there MUST have been a "conspiracy".
These conspiracists, naturally, don't have anything tangible in nature
to produce (like guns, bullets, bullet shells, or victims' wounds),
because there is nothing of a "CT" nature that can be produced in
these tangible areas of the case. They just possess a "feeling" that a
plot existed in Dallas; and that inkling seems good enough to satisfy
them for all time.
Hopefully Mr. Bugliosi's CS&L (Common Sense & Logic) can at least turn
the tide when it comes to those middle-of-the-road type of CTers --
i.e., the type with at least SOME reasoning skills who have no pet
theories to pursue till they die.
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0199b.htm
Some VB quotes:
"Based on the Himalayan mountain of evidence against him, anyone who
would believe he {Lee Harvey Oswald} was innocent would believe
someone who told them they had heard a cow speaking Spanish." --
Vincent Bugliosi; November 1986
"Though there are some notable exceptions, for the most part the
persistent rantings of the Warren Commission critics remind me of dogs
barking idiotically through endless nights." -- Vincent Bugliosi;
November 1986
"The American people are simply misinformed. They think they know what
happened; but there's an enormous amount of material in this case they
have no idea about. .... The biggest challenge of course, by far, is
the monumental amount of material involved in this case. At the
National Archives, they have over five million pages of documents.
There are forty official volumes....the Warren Commission volumes, the
House Select Committee volumes. Much of it is in fine print." --
Vincent Bugliosi; 2004 (Via the Discovery Channel television
documentary "Unsolved History -- JFK: Beyond The Magic Bullet")
"If, in fact, the bullet that passed through Kennedy did NOT go on and
hit Connally, then the bullet that DID hit Connally, by definition,
would have had to have been a separate bullet from a second gunman.
Why? Because Kennedy and Connally were hit virtually at the same time.
And with Oswald's single-shot, bolt-action rifle, it would have been
absolutely impossible for him to squeeze off two rounds within a split-
second of each other." -- Vincent Bugliosi; 2004 ("Beyond The Magic
Bullet")
~~~~~
That last VB quote above goes a long way, in my opinion, toward
debunking the "Anti-SBT, Pro-LN" theory put forth by Mark Fuhrman in
his 2006 book "A Simple Act Of Murder", which is a theory of Mr.
Fuhrman's that DOES indeed have Oswald performing a non-SBT solo act
and doing what Vince has said (via the above quote) is "absolutely
impossible".
I agree with Mr. Bugliosi -- it was "absolutely impossible" for Oswald
to wound JFK and Connally with separate bullets, given the Zapruder
Film timeline of the event.
The Single-Bullet Theory is still fully intact....and always will be
in my opinion. It's the "best evidence" in the case for what actually
happened to President Kennedy and Governor Connally on November 22nd,
1963.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b3a8181c73cfa095
eca...@tx.rr.com
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b3a8181c73cfa095
>
> http://www.amazon.com/VINCENT-BUGLIOSI/lm/2KJFLIXOW29IX/ref=cm_lmt_dt...
DVP the reason that what's left of
the TSFH gang consistently fails
to rebut these fine posts of yours
is a mystery to me.. Are they lazy?
Speechless? Intimidated by the fact
they know you/we are right? ..What
gives TSFH gang?
Is this yet another post by DVP that
hand-cuffs the "There's Something
Fishy Here" gang?
MR :~? ED
eca...@tx.rr.com
the TSFH gang consistently fails
to rebut these fine posts of yours
is a mystery to me.. Are they lazy?
Speechless? Intimidated by the fact
they know you/we are right? ..What
gives TSFH gang?
Is this yet another post by DVP that
hand-cuffs the "There's Something
Fishy Here" gang?
MR :~? ED
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/discussionboard/discussion.html/ref=cm_rdp_s...
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> DVP (October 22, 2006) -- I was recently reminded of something that
> Vincent Bugliosi is almost certainly bound to bring up in his John F.
> Kennedy publication next May, and is something he mentions often in
> his O.J. Simpson book and follow-up video series re. the Simpson case
> -- and that is what Vince calls the "In The Air Phenomenon".
>
> Vincent claims, and I agree, that there was something "in the air"
> surrounding the O.J. case (right from the beginning) that did not bode
> well for the prosecution (miserable as the lawyers were) in the
> Simpson case.
>
> And I can envision the very same type of "invisible" but "in the air"
> argument being made about the JFK case too. So many people over the
> 40+ years since '63 have been "conditioned" to think that a conspiracy
> ended John Kennedy's life; it's almost built-in...or "in the air"
> everywhere you go when the topic is brought up.
>
> Such a built-in kind of "There Was A Conspiracy" mindset, even from
> people who have rarely (if ever) studied the case in any depth at all,
> is something that's a bit difficult to fight
>
> read more »...
David Von Pein
I really don't know, Ed. I guess the CTers are just bored by the
format. They don't want to hear any more from us "Nutty Felon
Supporters And WC Shills/Disinfo Agents" I suppose. ~LOL~
But I don't care if the CTers respond particularly, because I'm doing
these mainly for my own satisfaction (and archived files). And to
illustrate the very weak position of many CTers' points and crazy
scenarios via this "give-&-take" type debate format. (BTW, I haven't
just "made up" any of the "CTer" questions and posts within any of
these "Debate" threads, as a certain CTer has suggested I have done.
Naturally, that CT-Kook is dead-wrong, as he always is. Every "CTer"
quote is a direct quote from the dates listed at the top of the
threads.) ;)
I'm not saying this mini-debate format is as good as a lengthier (or
face-to-face) debate. And, granted, I'm the one picking and choosing
which "debate" points and posts to highlight and feature. But I do
feel that I've placed some good points in these "Debate" threads
(which will reach, btw, to a "Part 60" once I'm finally finished
posting all of them). And possibly even more in the future. Time will
tell.
I've tried to cover many different sub-topics within these threads --
e.g., the various aspects of the SBT (gobs of times, of course), the
head shot, the Z-Film, the BOH witnesses, CE399, CE567/569, "Oswald As
Patsy", the backyard photos, the motorcade route being "changed", the
"curtain rods", Howard Brennan, Harold Norman, Edwin Walker, Oliver
Stone, Jim Garrison, Badge Man, the SBT re-creations, Oswald's many
lies, "Thorburn's", David Lifton's nonsense, the "Mystery Deaths", and
many other sub-topics in short give-and-take bursts.
And, bit-by-bit, I think the LN truth emerges stronger and stronger
each passing day.
And it shall grow even stronger....come May 29th, 2007. :) .......
tomnln
> I will address each of the 3 or 4 but
> at some point I'd like to know your
> source(s) for each claim you "quote"
> Quite frankly there's so much subjective
> BS on your site I'm a little leary of you
> just saying "here's what happened and
> what Baker did" ..
<eca...@tx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:1173948985.7...@l75g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
your last post, Tom? I miss them so when they're not there EVERY
single time. ;)
luthie...@yahoo.com
there deusch von frankenberry, you and your buddies got the secret
Nazi hideout made yet??
David Von Pein
Yep...I'm heading there right now, in fact. Bud's bringing supper for
the whole gang too! Domino's Pizza! Yummy! (And Ed is bringing
SnackWells and Fig Newtons for dessert!!)
I'll bet you now wish that you were one of "us", huh? (Instead of the
"CT-Kook/Fraud/Idiot Savant" that you currently are portraying to the
hilt.)
luthie...@yahoo.com
Hey, captain dingleberry, make sure you watch the movie tonight,
before the circle jerk, you know the one of your parents beatin and
gassin jews........yeah make sure you guys watch that again before you
have to take it back, hmm or did you guys just buy it so you wouldnt
have to keep renting it???
tomnln
You're STILL too chicken (dishonest) toAddress them.
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1173999673.0...@y66g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
Are the Truckers on Strike?
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1174000360....@n76g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...