BATTLING DOUG HORNE'S LARGE BATCH OF CONSPIRACY SILLINESS
David Von Pein
DOUGLAS P. HORNE SAID:
>>> "Dr. Humes performed the post-mortem surgery on JFK's head wounds before the autopsy." <<<
DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
The above single sentence penned by Douglas P. Horne should be enough
of a reason all by itself, with nothing more added, for all sensible
and reasonable people to disregard Mr. Horne's theories as pure
hogwash and nonsense (not to mention impossible).
DOUG HORNE SAID:
>>> "Mr. Von Pein, this is in response to your claim that there is nothing wrong with the autopsy x-rays and photos. Many autopsy photos, and two skull x-rays, are missing." <<<
DVP SAID:
Yes, there are indeed apparently some autopsy photos "missing". But I
will once again have to agree with the man who wrote the best book
ever written on the JFK assassination, Vincent Bugliosi, when he said
this in "Reclaiming History":
"For years conspiracy theorists have charged that the "missing"
autopsy photographs are, in their minds, one more indication of a
conspiracy in the assassination. .... But...with literally hundreds of
people from various official investigative agencies...examining and
working with the photos throughout the years, I not only don't find it
suspicious, I find it completely predictable that one or more
photographs ended up missing, misplaced, or expropriated by people
through whose hands they passed." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 275 of
"Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F.
Kennedy" (Endnotes on CD-ROM)(©2007)
http://www.ReclaimingHistory.blogspot.com
DOUG HORNE SAID:
>>> "Dr. David Mantik, M.D., Ph.D., in 9 visits to the [National] Archives (most of them during the 1990s), has conclusively proven that the three surviving skull x-rays in the National Archives are altered copy films, not original x-rays. The science he used was optical densitometry, a technique not employed by the HSCA's "experts" because they didn't think outside the box." <<<
DVP SAID:
And yet at the end of this day (like all other days since the HSCA
final report was published in early 1979), we're still left with the
conclusions of the TWENTY or so experts who were a part of the HSCA's
Photographic Panel, with those conclusions being:
"The evidence indicates that the autopsy photographs and X-rays
were taken of President Kennedy at the time of his autopsy and that
they had not been altered in any manner." -- 7 HSCA 41 [linked below]
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0026a.htm
DOUG HORNE SAID:
>>> "Quoting old findings which did not employ optical densitometry as an analytical technique does NOT discredit his [Dr. Mantik's] work, it is simply an intellectually dishonest way of attempting to ignore it." <<<
DVP SAID:
I'm certainly not alone in my disagreements with Dr. Mantik. Many
other people also strongly disagree with Dr. Mantik's conclusions
regarding the photographs and X-rays, and also disagree with his
notion that some conspirator(s) had a desire to "plant" a "6.5-
millimeter object" onto one of JFK's X-rays after the autopsy, which
is a notion that defies logic from all sensible points-of-view (mainly
because it was so utterly UNNECESSARY AND SUPERFLUOUS).
But Dr. David Mantik doesn't care about Occam and his handy (and
usually accurate) razor. Instead of applying some measure of logic and
common sense (and Occam) to the controversial matters surrounding
JFK's murder, Dr. Mantik (and you) would rather peddle impossible-to-
prove theories for years on end.
And, of course, there will always be somebody out there in fantasy-
land who will be ready to listen to the impossible-to-prove theories
of conspiracy theorists like Doug Horne and David Mantik. Such is the
way with the world.
DOUG HORNE SAID:
>>> "Hopefully, your attempts to dissuade people from reading my book will backfire, and badly. All of your concerns are addressed and countered, more than adequately, in my book, for those who are curious and have an open mind." <<<
DVP SAID:
I'm not attempting to "dissuade" anyone from reading your 5 volumes of
nonsense, Doug. Not at all. Hopefully many people will buy your books.
And among those people who buy them there will certainly be a decent-
sized percentage of logical and reasonable folks (like me) who know
beyond any and all doubt that none of the over-the-top theories that
you purport as being true and valid in your book series entitled
"Inside The Assassination Records Review Board" can possibly be
accurate...because the stuff you think happened in November 1963 is
just (to put it bluntly) too ridiculous to consider believing for more
than three seconds.
DOUG HORNE SAID:
>>> "Have a nice day. And thank you for attracting more attention to my book. Surely, anyone reading this debate in the [Amazon.com] comments section will now want to buy it, to see what this is all about---so they can make their own assessments." <<<
DVP SAID:
Yeah, if only for the many belly-laughs that your impossible-to-prove
conspiracy theories will undoubtedly elicit from the people reading
your books.
But good luck selling them anyway.
Have a nice day.
ADDENDUM:
Let's just take a quick (but by no means comprehensive) inventory of a
few of the insane and crazy things that Mr. Douglas P. Horne believes
happened with respect to the death of the 35th U.S. Chief Executive.
And keep in mind that Mr. Horne thinks that ALL of these things
definitely occurred in connection with JFK's assassination, and this
short list is probably only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to
the crazy conspiracy-oriented things that Mr. Horne puts his faith in.
Back in the world of sanity and REALITY, however, in order to believe
that even ONE of the following things is actually true, a person has
no choice but to place his faith in something that is really, really
silly:
1.) Doug Horne believes that President Kennedy's bullet wounds were
"altered" by Dr. James Joseph Humes at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the
night of November 22, 1963, with the President's wounds being altered
by Humes before the start of the official autopsy on JFK's body.
2.) Doug Horne believes that there were TWO separate brain
examinations performed by the autopsists in late November 1963, with
one of these supplementary brain exams being performed on a brain that
was NOT John F. Kennedy's brain. And the second brain exam was
apparently done on a brain that was WAY TOO BIG to even be JFK's own
brain. (The plotters/cover-up agents involved in this silliness
evidently had no brains at all in any of their own heads, because this
craziness is BEYOND silly and stupid. It's utterly insane, as is #1
above, of course.)
3.) Doug Horne believes that the Zapruder Film has been altered. And
Horne believes the film was faked/altered/manipulated despite the fact
that we know that the original film, both BEFORE and immediately AFTER
it was developed and copied in Dallas on 11/22/63, was never out of
the sight of Abraham Zapruder and/or Zapruder's business partner,
Erwin Schwartz. But maybe Mr. Horne would like to pretend that
ordinary Dallas citizens like Zapruder and Schwartz were also part of
the plot to conceal all of the best evidence from the eyes of the
American public immediately after JFK was shot.
4.) Doug Horne believes that multiple X-rays of JFK's head have been
faked/altered.
The above short list, as I mentioned, is probably only a
representative sampling of the ridiculous and impossible things that
Mr. Horne believes regarding the John F. Kennedy murder case, with the
above four items being things that I jotted down after listening to
Horne's appearance on "Black Op Radio" on December 10, 2009 [linked
below].
http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black452a.ram
http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black452b.ram
I'll close this post with some additional excellent quotes from the
master of CS&L [Common Sense & Logic], Vince Bugliosi:
"Before Doug Horne, the main beef that most conspiracy theorists
had with the autopsy surgeons was their alleged incompetence. But
thirty-five years after the assassination, Horne showed all these
naive, whippersnapper conspiracy theorists a thing or two. Humes and
Boswell weren't incompetent. They were criminals and co-conspirators.
"One would think that Horne would be ashamed of himself for
writing the memorandum he did. But to the contrary, he is very
proud. ....
"A great number of nuts have kept pumping out conspiracy
theories for years. But these are private nuts, on the outside as it
were. But when someone like Horne, working for an official review
board of the federal government, someone we expect to be responsible,
can author a document that couldn't possibly be any sillier or
transparently irresponsible, then unfortunately we know that the
notion of a conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination will be alive and
well until the crack of doom.
"I suppose it is a given that there will be other Doug Hornes
who will breast-feed the conspiracy loonies for generations to come
with their special lactations of bilge, blather, and bunk.
"One wants to take earnest, well-intentioned, and intelligent
people like Drs. David Mantik and Gary Aguilar seriously, even though
neither of them are pathologists. But when they take someone like Doug
Horne seriously, and accept his outrageous and patently false theory
as completely valid, it becomes much more difficult to take them
seriously." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 435-444 of "Reclaiming History"
To read more of Mr. Bugliosi's common-sense debunking of Doug Horne's
silliness, go to the top link below:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1d034f32416ff7b6
http://www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
http://www.Blogger.com/profile/12501570830179992520
David Von Pein
December 19, 2009
Herbert Blenner
> http://www.Amazon.com/review/R23U3HRSNOQ2X3/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie...
>
> http://www.Amazon.com/review/R1BVH7FGVKQRP9/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie...
>
> DOUG HORNE SAID:
>
> >>> "Quoting old findings which did not employ optical densitometry as an analytical technique does NOT discredit his [Dr. Mantik's] work, it is simply an intellectually dishonest way of attempting to ignore it." <<<
>
The HSCA employed optical densitometry to study the negative of a
backyard photograph. I quote from the report of the photographic
panel.
(372) In a further effort to locate unnatural edges or lines, as well
as differences in grain structure and contrast variations, the panel
used digital image processing. The negative of CE 133-B was placed on
a microdensity scanner so that light passing through the film could be
measured. Such measurements were made on microscopic square areas that
were positioned in a square-by-square pattern, but the actual squares
were smaller than the silver grains on the negative. The measuring
instrument determined how light or dark each microscopic square area
was and expressed this as a number in a scale of 1,024 grades of
density. As the film was scanned, the number for each square area was
stored in the memory of a computer. The computer could subsequently
recall the numbers, and cause a beam of light to expose a tiny spot on
a piece of unexposed photographic film. Each small area was exposed to
a magnitude corresponding to the relative tightness or darkness of the
area on the original negative. When the exposed film was developed, it
provided an enhanced copy of the original image.
End of quotation.
Do you care to comment on why the HSCA ignored densitometry as a
technique to study the skull x-rays?
Herbert
David Von Pein
>>> "Do you care to comment on why the HSCA ignored densitometry as a technique to study the skull x-rays?" <<<
So that all 20+ members of the HSCA's photo panel could become
embroiled in a "cover-up" 14 years after the murder of JFK?
Is that the answer Herb?
At the end of the day, you're still left with 7 HSCA 41. And you (and
Dr. Mantik) are still left with the "stereo pairing" of the photos.
Would you care to explain how there could be perfect stereoscopic
pairs of the extant JFK photos if some of them are, in fact, altered
pictures?
According to members of the HSCA photo panel, it would have been
virtually impossible to create "fakes" so perfect that stereo pairing
could be done with the photos.
All lies by the HSCA, Herb? Is that the answer?
tomnln
How much $$$ did they PAY You???
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:31065bb6-9e59-459d...@x20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/662113d6c2cbfbba
>>> "Dave, have you read Horne's books?" <<<
No.
But a person who knows what the evidence is in the Kennedy case (and I
know it pretty well I'd say) doesn't need to read a book full of
fantasy to know that it is a book full of fantasy.
I truly cannot believe that any rational and sensible person could
possibly buy into Doug Horne's 2,000+ pages of totally-unprovable
conspiracy-slanted hogwash. It's mind-boggling to think that people
can be that gullible.
And you DO realize that Doug Horne believes in just about every silly
theory out there regarding JFK's murder....don't you?
Plus, you can hear him talk about his insane theories for almost three
hours at Black Op Radio (12/10/09).
Plus, you can read all about his silly theories in his ARRB memos as
well, available for free online. Some people seem to think that Horne
just now (this year) came up with these new revelations about body-
altering surgery BY HUMES [LOL break], and Z-Film forgery, and X-ray
tampering, and the amazingly-stupid "Two Brains" theory.
But Mr. Horne's thoughts regarding those things have been in print
since 1998 (at least most of those crazy beliefs have been anyway),
right here at the links below:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/staff_memos/DH_BrainExams/html/d130_0001a.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/staff_memos/DH_AutPhoto43/html/dh_autPhoto43_0001a.htm
http://history-matters.com/archive/contents/arrb/contents_arrb_staff-memos.htm
>>> "While I do not think you are paid by the CIA, if you are I hope that you are being paid by the word." <<<
I wish. But the checks from Langley have been slow in coming. And I've
been trying to get Mr. McAdams' help in getting the CIA boys to give
us both a raise in our "Disinfo" salaries, but to date I've had no
success. ~sigh~
http://www.The-JFK-Assassination.blogspot.com
aeffects
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> >>> "Dave, have you read Horne's books?" <<<
>
> No.
then sit-down troll.... no need making a complete fool out of
yourself....
> But a person who knows what the evidence is in the Kennedy case (and I
> know it pretty well I'd say) doesn't need to read a book full of
> fantasy to know that it is a book full of fantasy.
>
> I truly cannot believe that any rational and sensible person could
> possibly buy into Doug Horne's 2,000+ pages of totally-unprovable
> conspiracy-slanted hogwash. It's mind-boggling to think that people
> can be that gullible.
>
> And you DO realize that Doug Horne believes in just about every silly
> theory out there regarding JFK's murder....don't you?
>
> Plus, you can hear him talk about his insane theories for almost three
> hours at Black Op Radio (12/10/09).
>
> Plus, you can read all about his silly theories in his ARRB memos as
> well, available for free online. Some people seem to think that Horne
> just now (this year) came up with these new revelations about body-
> altering surgery BY HUMES [LOL break], and Z-Film forgery, and X-ray
> tampering, and the amazingly-stupid "Two Brains" theory.
>
> But Mr. Horne's thoughts regarding those things have been in print
> since 1998 (at least most of those crazy beliefs have been anyway),
> right here at the links below:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/staff_memos/DH_BrainExams...
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/staff_memos/DH_AutPhoto43...
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/contents/arrb/contents_arrb_staff-...
David Von Pein
http://www.Amazon.com/review/R23U3HRSNOQ2X3/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&cdMsgNo=8&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdMsgID=MxJUOCXBNSK9T4#MxJUOCXBNSK9T4
>>> "Von Pein's comments (which sound as though they are penned directly by Mr. Bugliosi himself) are clearly a desperate attempt to dissuade readers from reading my book." <<<
I already told you, Doug Horne, that I'm not trying to dissuade anyone
from reading your book(s). Have you already forgotten what I said
yesterday?:
"I'm not attempting to "dissuade" anyone from reading your 5
volumes of nonsense, Doug. Not at all. Hopefully many people will buy
your books. And among those people who buy them there will certainly
be a decent-sized percentage of logical and reasonable folks (like me)
who know beyond any and all doubt that none of the over-the-top
theories that you purport as being true and valid in your book series
entitled "Inside The Assassination Records Review Board" can possibly
be accurate...because the stuff you think happened in November 1963 is
just (to put it bluntly) too ridiculous to consider believing for more
than three seconds." -- DVP; 12/19/09
I was probably just lying through my teeth yesterday, right Doug?
(After all, most "CIA Disinformation Agents" are chronic liars, as we
all know.)
>>> "I say this to all who are reading these posts: you read the books, sift the evidence yourself, and make up your own minds. Don't let someone tell YOU what is persuasive or not persuasive; what is credible or non-credible; what is worthy of belief or not worthy of belief. The members of our society who blindly defer to authority (because they are intellectually lazy and want to be told what to believe) are the kind of people that Von Pein hopes will read his comments. He appears desperately afraid that prospective readers might actually read what is in my books and make up their own minds. I am not afraid of this at all---I would welcome having prospective readers compare Mr. Bugliosi's book and mine, and then making up their own minds. I ask you: who do you trust, someone full of negativity who desires to trash someone else's work so badly that he can dissuade you from reading it, or someone who welcomes the open exchange of differing ideas? Read my book(s), and make up your own mind about whether or not there was a coverup of the medical evidence in the Kennedy assassination. Don't depend on someone else (who clearly has not even read my 2000 page book) who is unalterably opposed to its conclusions because he has a closed mind. Von Pein is desperately afraid that prospective readers might actually READ MY BOOK! Why? Whose interests is he representing? Ask yourself that." <<<
I represent the "interests" of reasonable and sensible people
everywhere. And those type of people have no choice but to reject the
MULTIPLE impossible-to-prove theories purported by Douglas P. Horne
(and other conspiracy theorists like him who have attempted to peddle
the most outlandish theories about JFK's murder since the mid-1960s;
the more outlandish and ridiculous, the better, it would seem).
>>> "I wish to thank Mr. Von Pein again for drawing attention to my book and for increasing audience interest." <<<
I seriously doubt that a nobody like me is substantially increasing
your book sales, Doug. But thanks for the (sort of) compliment
anyway. ;)
>>> "The only real question is: "Is Von Pein a pen-name for Bugliosi?"" <<<
No, it isn't. But, again, I thank you for the tremendous
(unintentional) compliment you just bestowed upon me here....because I
can't think of a better compliment than being told that "Von Pein's
comments...sound as though they are penned directly by Mr. Bugliosi
himself".
Thank you very much for that, Doug.
P.S. -- Although I'm not Vincent Bugliosi himself, I did take the time
to send Mr. Bugliosi an e-mail (through his secretary) at 1:20 AM EST
today (12/20/09), in order to inform him about your books being
released (in case he didn't know it), and also to provide him a
weblink to some of my comments about the nonsense that Doug Horne is
peddling with regard to the JFK case. I'm sure Vince will get a kick
out of it. (He usually does when I mail him something about the
conspiracy kooks of the world.)
David Von Pein
December 20, 2009
Ben Holmes
aeffects says...
>
>On Dec 20, 6:53=A0pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>>
>> >>> "Dave, have you read Horne's books?" <<<
>>
>> No.
>
>then sit-down troll.... no need making a complete fool out of
>yourself....
Reading this devastating review of Horne's new 5 volume set, I've been convinced
to purchase it. Amazon will have it to me by Wednesday.
Thanks DVP!!!
>> But a person who knows what the evidence is in the Kennedy case (and I
>> know it pretty well I'd say) doesn't need to read a book full of
>> fantasy to know that it is a book full of fantasy.
>>
>> I truly cannot believe that any rational and sensible person could
>> possibly buy into Doug Horne's 2,000+ pages of totally-unprovable
>> conspiracy-slanted hogwash. It's mind-boggling to think that people
>> can be that gullible.
>>
>> And you DO realize that Doug Horne believes in just about every silly
>> theory out there regarding JFK's murder....don't you?
>>
>> Plus, you can hear him talk about his insane theories for almost three
>> hours at Black Op Radio (12/10/09).
>>
>> Plus, you can read all about his silly theories in his ARRB memos as
>> well, available for free online. Some people seem to think that Horne
>> just now (this year) came up with these new revelations about body-
>> altering surgery BY HUMES [LOL break], and Z-Film forgery, and X-ray
>> tampering, and the amazingly-stupid "Two Brains" theory.
>>
>> But Mr. Horne's thoughts regarding those things have been in print
>> since 1998 (at least most of those crazy beliefs have been anyway),
>> right here at the links below:
>>
>> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/staff_memos/DH_BrainExams...
>>
>> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/staff_memos/DH_AutPhoto43...
>>
>> http://history-matters.com/archive/contents/arrb/contents_arrb_staff-...
>>
>> >>> "While I do not think you are paid by the CIA, if you are I hope that=
> you are being paid by the word." <<<
>>
>> I wish. But the checks from Langley have been slow in coming. And I've
>> been trying to get Mr. McAdams' help in getting the CIA boys to give
>> us both a raise in our "Disinfo" salaries, but to date I've had no
>> success. ~sigh~
>>
>> http://www.The-JFK-Assassination.blogspot.com
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
David Von Pein
>>> "Reading this devastating review of Horne's new 5 volume set, I've been convinced to purchase it. Amazon will have it to me by Wednesday. Thanks DVP!!!" <<<
I'm sure you're need to buy a second set of Horne's volumes, Mr.
Holmes. Your first set will be rendered unreadable after you've
salivated all over every page while lapping up every piece of nonsense
penned by Mr. Horne.
lazu...@webtv.net
more musical talent than John Lennon or Paul McCartney...Laz
David Von Pein
I've been reading through a few selected parts of Doug Horne's five
volumes of insanity entitled "Inside The Assassination Records Review
Board" (via Amazon.com's handy "Look Inside This Book" tool), and I've
been able to confirm that I was 100% correct when I made this
statement the other day:
"The above short list [see link below for the 4-item list], as I
mentioned, is probably only a representative sampling of the
ridiculous and impossible things that Mr. Horne believes regarding the
John F. Kennedy murder case." -- DVP; 12/19/09
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0e2e36113ce98e6b
Sure enough, by glancing at just a few of the pages of Horne's five
volumes provided for free by Amazon.com, I found several more things
to add to the list of "Ridiculous Things That Doug Horne Believes With
Respect To JFK's Assassination". Let's take an another inventory (this
is in addition to the four insane items that I already outlined in the
article linked above):
1.) Doug Horne believes that JFK's body arrived at Bethesda Naval
Hospital in a cheap "shipping casket".
2.) Doug Horne believes that JFK arrived at Bethesda inside a body
bag.
3.) Doug Horne believes that the expensive ornamental casket that was
taken off of Air Force One at Andrews Air Force Base was "empty".
4.) Doug Horne believes that "corrupt individuals within the U.S.
Secret Service were responsible not only for the security stripping of
President Kennedy's Dallas motorcade...but that the Secret Service was
integrally involved in the physical coverup of bullet damage to the
Presidential limousine which, if left in its damaged condition
immediately following the assassination, would have provided
incontrovertible proof that the limousine's occupants were subjected
to ambush by crossfire in Dealey Plaza, and that President Kennedy was
therefore assassinated by a conspiracy" [Horne; page 1379].
5.) Doug Horne, also on page 1379 of his book (Volume 5) suggests that
Governor John Connally was intimately involved in planning the
motorcade route through Dallas so that JFK "would have to pass through
the dangerous kill zone on Elm Street in Dealey Plaza" [Horne; page
1379].
And the only possible inference I can see from that statement made by
Horne on page 1379 is that Horne believes that Governor Connally was
an integral part of a plot to murder John F. Kennedy in Dallas -- even
though Connally HIMSELF rode in the very same car as JFK and was in a
direct line of fire when the bullets started flying in Dealey Plaza
(with Connally, of course, being shot and nearly killed himself during
the shooting).
And I saved the best one for last here (this one's a real dilly):
6.) Doug Horne said this on page 1654 of "Inside The ARRB":
"One reality that is undeniable is that Lee Harvey Oswald DID
NOT KILL PRESIDENT KENNEDY, as proven by George O'Toole in
1975." [Emphasis is Horne's.]
For those who might not recall who George O'Toole is -- O'Toole is the
kook who utilized a machine known as a "Psychological Stress
Evaluator" to determine that Lee Oswald was positively telling the
truth when he told the press (and the world) that he was merely "a
patsy" and that he had not shot President Kennedy.
And O'Toole's "PSE" evaluation of Oswald's oral statements made while
LHO was in custody in Dallas is apparently the BEST evidence that Mr.
Horne can come up with to back up his belief that "Lee Harvey Oswald
did not kill President Kennedy".*
* = Along with O'Toole's "PSE" tests, Horne also states on page 1654
of his book (in Volume 5) that the other of the "two lines of
evidence" that have "convinced me, more than any others, that Lee
Harvey Oswald did not assassinate President Kennedy" [Horne; page
1654], is the negative result of the paraffin test that was conducted
on Oswald's cheek.
Horne, of course, undoubtedly is aware of the fact that the FBI did a
test with Oswald's rifle after the assassination which proved that a
negative paraffin result on a gunman's cheek does not prove that the
person being tested did NOT fire a rifle, with the FBI agent who fired
Oswald's rifle testing NEGATIVE for nitrates on both his hands AND his
cheek.
I'm guessing that Horne, however, probably thinks that that FBI test
was merely a sham and a total lie. After all, nobody in officialdom
can be trusted to ever tell the truth. Right, Doug?
When does Doug Horne's laundry list of insane beliefs cease, you might
be asking?
Beats me.
I only read a few pages (for free) at Amazon.com. And just look at the
list of craziness I was able to gather from just that very short
reading.
Just imagine how long my list would be if I had plopped down the
outrageous sum of $84.35 ($16.87 x 5) to purchase all 2,000+ pages of
Horne's fanciful flight into delirium.
David Von Pein
December 21, 2009
David Von Pein
>>> "Now David, come on. If you're going to rant about the guy's book, you really should have read it. You damage your own credibility by reacting to the book's viewpoint rather than its content." <<<
Oh, come now, W. Glynn. Even very few "conspiracy theorists" in the
21st century currently swallow the notion of "body altering surgery".
It's just plain crazy--face it. It never happened. Nor COULD it have
happened in the brief timeframe that Horne and Lifton suggest in their
respective theories.
The very idea that a bunch of people planned out JFK's murder very
carefully MONTHS in advance (as is suggested by Doug Horne and other
conspiracists) and then on Game Day (11/22/63) decided to green-light
a multi-shooter conspiracy plot that would potentially require the
PRESIDENT'S BODY TO UNDERGO WOUND-ALTERING SURGERY after the
assassination is a notion that belongs in a Stephen King book (a book
entitled: "THE INSANE BRAIN-DEAD PLOT THAT KILLED KENNEDY").
Plus: the observations of David Powers ALL BY HIMSELF rule out any
such body-stealing/body-altering theory.
aeffects
> Von Pein on Horne, would be kinda like Brittany Spears saying, she has
> more musical talent than John Lennon or Paul McCartney...Laz
damn Laz... you're on a roll there son! :)
aeffects
On Dec 20, 7:44 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip the Bugliosi/Reclaiming History nonsense>
aeffects
On Dec 21, 7:14 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
<snip the Bugliosi/Reclaiming History nonsense, here also>
lazu...@webtv.net
the swimming pool being massaged by attracive young lasses...Horne was
actually talking to the X-Ray Techs, The morticians, the FBI Agents, The
medical team at Bethesda, the analysists at the NPIC,film restoration
pro's, but, hey let's not listen to those guys..let's listen to the guy
by the swimming pool...drumroll...Laz
David Von Pein
DOUG HORNE SAID:
>>> "Eddie [Kasica, a conspiracy kook who is in love with Doug Horne's retarded conspiracy theories], It was a pleasure to learn of your support. I love your rather brief and succinct definition of what is going on here in the mind of Mr. Von Penis. You have hit the nail on the head; er...perhaps you have hit the head with a nail??? It's kind of sad, actually. An esteemed friend of mine (who has an M.D. and a Ph.D. in physics) said that it was apparent that Von Pinetree had "some unmet psychological needs." Cheers! Doug Horne" <<<
DVP [AKA: "MR. VON PENIS" AND "VON PINETREE"] SAID:
How quaint of Mr. Horne to play third-grade games with my last
name....and not just once, but twice in the same post.
Doug, you should have also utilized the favorite one among the kooks
at various JFK forums --- "Von Pain-in-the-ass".
You could have had a hat-trick, Doug.
David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/80adb711209909ce
Excellent, Mr. Mack. Thank you.
And I'd be willing to bet that very similar explanations concerning
the various "anomalies" in the Zapruder Film [like the explanation
discussed by Gary Mack at the link above] could be presented in order
to debunk every single one of the claims made by the conspiracy
theorists who have attempted to discredit the authenticity of the
film.
And I still can't see how Doug Horne (or anybody) can find a way for
the film to be altered (especially on Day 1, November 22nd), because
we know that Abraham Zapruder or his business partner were IN
POSSESSION OF and IN CONTROL OF Zapruder's camera-original film
throughout that entire day.
We know that Zapruder himself was present when his camera-original
film was developed. And Zapruder was also present when the three first-
generation copies were made. There was simply no time available to
"fake" the original film prior to the three first-generation copies
being made.
Do the alterationists actually think that the film-forgers were able
to fake (in perfect tandem) not only the camera-original film, but
also ALL THREE first-generation copies that were made within HOURS of
when the original film was developed?
It makes me wonder if Mr. Horne actually thinks that Abe Zapruder and
Erwin Schwartz were a part of a "plot" to alter the film. But I really
don't want to shell out more than $80 for Horne's five volumes of
fantasy in order to find out. Maybe he'll tell me himself sometime
during one of our heartwarming and tender encounters at Amazon.com. ;)
lazu...@webtv.net
Warren Commission-just because one 's a head in the sand lone nutter you
can't pick and choose-if JFK was shot near the eop or within a couple
inches , then everythng pertaining to the HSCA and it's trajectories,
conclusions etc. are a fraud,vice versa ,then the WC was a fraud, if you
except the HSCA. But the Bethesda Doctors knew damn well a bullet from
the EOP position could not have caused all the damage to the top of
JFK's skull, nor was the back of the head intact with a neat litte
bullet hole in the cowlick, so both official scenarios are garbage...Laz
IOW-Read Horne and learn something...
David Von Pein
>>> "Read Horne and learn something." <<<
Better still -- read Horne and become another mindless kook who
believes in all of the following stupid things:
1.) JFK's body was altered (by HUMES, no less).
2.) The X-rays are fakes.
3.) The Z-Film is a fake.
4.) A substitute brain was inserted into the record of the case.
5.) Oswald didn't shoot JFK.
6.) The bronze casket that arrived at Andrews AFB was empty.
7.) JFK arrived at Bethesda in a cheap shipping casket.
8.) JFK arrived at Bethesda in a body bag.
9.) The Secret Service was involved in a plot to kill the person they
were sworn to protect.
10.) John B. Connally was deeply involved in arranging to have JFK
killed.
11.) Practically the entire U.S. Government was involved in covering
up the assassination of the U.S. President.
And on and on....until Horne runs out of silly things to believe (but
he seems to have an inexhaustible supply of impossible things to place
his faith in).
lazu...@webtv.net
the whole JFK Assassination saga-worse than the magic bullet, or Hickey,
or Greer killed JFK-the bunching nonsense & the back of the head intact
Lulu....anybody that espouses either is hopeless, just an object of
ridicule...Only takes a paragraph or so to obliterate each, but half a
brain should spare one the trouble it takes...Laz
David Von Pein
Lurkers should also readily realize that "Laz" is a retarded
conspiracy kook.
David Von Pein
>>> "Lurkers[,] you have to realize Von Pein believes the 2 nuttiest things in the whole JFK Assassination saga--the bunching nonsense & the back-of-the-head-intact Lulu." <<<
I shall handily demolish the latest (above) nonsense uttered by a kook
named "Laz" in two clicks of a mouse--these two clicks:
"BACK-OF-THE-HEAD-INTACT":
http://Reclaiming-History.googlegroups.com/web/011.+JFK+AUTOPSY+PHOTO?gda=S0hoNEgAAADQI8aFoPPpMPozfQ5vu_qQ4gF95qLrV2azSbNPwpG0kRZ5oknr4PK9NRubH_RFRg6DH7k_HBP_EtyS7XaNp0ALGjVgdwNi-BwrUzBGT2hOzg&gsc=I2M87wsAAADbbVSgHHytUHEeWVM-qFWh
Apparently ol' Laz must believe that in addition to the BOH autopsy
picture, both the Croft photo and the Jefferies Film have been altered
too. Because both things prove the "bunching".
As I said earlier, "Laz" is retarded. And he proved that fact again
with his latest Internet message above.
David Von Pein
http://www.JFKAssassinationForum.com/index.php/topic,1589.msg23227.html#msg23227
>>> "I always have an open mind..." <<<
But if you "open" your mind too much, a whole bunch of silly,
impossible scenarios can easily begin to seep into your cranium. And
is that really "research" and "open-mindedness", or merely an excuse
to accept any cockeyed theory that comes down Elm Street (such as all
of the silliness offered up by Douglas P. Horne)?
And when you realize that Mr. Horne is attempting to peddle ALL of the
following things as being the absolute truth (despite the fact that it
would be incredible and extraordinary if even ONE of these things is
true), shouldn't a person examining Horne's spaghetti-against-the-wall
batch of conspiracies begin to wonder if Horne is trying to pry their
minds open to the point of accepting a whole bunch of things that are
just impossible for a reasonable person to believe?:
1.) JFK's body was altered (by DR. HUMES, no less).
2.) Some of the autopsy X-rays are fakes.
3.) The Z-Film is a fake.
4.) A substitute brain was inserted into the record of the case (as
Horne had already laid out for the ARRB in 1996 and 1998; I can just
imagine how embarrassing it was for the other members of the ARRB to
see this garbage printed up for everyone to see and laugh at):
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/staff_memos/DH_BrainExams/html/d130_0002a.htm
5.) Oswald didn't shoot JFK.
6.) The bronze casket that arrived at Andrews AFB was empty.
7.) JFK arrived at Bethesda in a cheap shipping casket.
8.) JFK arrived at Bethesda in a body bag.
9.) The Secret Service was involved in a plot to kill the person they
were sworn to protect.
10.) John B. Connally was deeply involved in arranging to have JFK
killed.
11.) Practically the entire U.S. Government was involved in covering
up the assassination of the U.S. President.
And on and on....until Horne runs out of silly things to believe (but
he seems to have an inexhaustible supply of impossible things to place
his faith in).
When does Doug Horne's laundry list of insane beliefs cease, you might
be asking?
Beats me.
I only read a few pages of Horne's 5-volume book "Inside The
Assassination Records Review Board" at Amazon.com (for free). And just
look at the list of craziness I was able to gather from just that very
short reading.
Just imagine how long my list would be if I had plopped down the
outrageous sum of $84.35 ($16.87 x 5, via Amazon.com) to purchase all
2,000+ pages of Horne's fanciful flight into delirium.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0e2e36113ce98e6b
http://www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com/2009/10/jfk-assassination-lone-gunman-viewpoint.html
http://www.DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2009/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio.html
aeffects
<snip the lone nut lunacy>
your fear is palpable... so tell us troll, when did HBO start the RH/
Bugliosi rewrites?
philw...@gmail.com
> http://www.Amazon.com/review/R23U3HRSNOQ2X3/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&cdMsgNo=5&cdPage=1&cdSort=oldest&cdMsgID=Mx2RVKNXI6HGY2D#Mx2RVKNXI6HGY2D
>
>
> http://www.Amazon.com/review/R1BVH7FGVKQRP9/ref=cm_cr_rev_detmd_pl?ie=UTF8&cdMsgNo=15&cdPage=2&cdSort=oldest&cdMsgID=Mx1VQDYSDYMUDVQ#Mx1VQDYSDYMUDVQ
>
>
>
> DOUGLAS P. HORNE SAID:
>
>
> >>> "Dr. Humes performed the post-mortem surgery on JFK's head wounds before the autopsy." <<<
>
>
> DAVID VON PEIN SAID:
>
>
> The above single sentence penned by Douglas P. Horne should be enough
> of a reason all by itself, with nothing more added, for all sensible
> and reasonable people to disregard Mr. Horne's theories as pure
> hogwash and nonsense (not to mention impossible).
>
>
>
> DOUG HORNE SAID:
>
>
> >>> "Mr. Von Pein, this is in response to your claim that there is nothing wrong with the autopsy x-rays and photos. Many autopsy photos, and two skull x-rays, are missing." <<<
>
>
> DVP SAID:
>
>
> Yes, there are indeed apparently some autopsy photos "missing". But I
> will once again have to agree with the man who wrote the best book
> ever written on the JFK assassination, Vincent Bugliosi, when he said
> this in "Reclaiming History":
>
> "For years conspiracy theorists have charged that the "missing"
> autopsy photographs are, in their minds, one more indication of a
> conspiracy in the assassination. .... But...with literally hundreds of
> people from various official investigative agencies...examining and
> working with the photos throughout the years, I not only don't find it
> suspicious, I find it completely predictable that one or more
> photographs ended up missing, misplaced, or expropriated by people
> through whose hands they passed." -- Vincent T. Bugliosi; Page 275 of
> "Reclaiming History: The Assassination Of President John F.
> Kennedy" (Endnotes on CD-ROM)(©2007)
>
> http://www.ReclaimingHistory.blogspot.com
>
>
> DOUG HORNE SAID:
>
>
> >>> "Dr. David Mantik, M.D., Ph.D., in 9 visits to the [National] Archives (most of them during the 1990s), has conclusively proven that the three surviving skull x-rays in the National Archives are altered copy films, not original x-rays. The science he used was optical densitometry, a technique not employed by the HSCA's "experts" because they didn't think outside the box." <<<
>
>
>
> DVP SAID:
>
> And yet at the end of this day (like all other days since the HSCA
> final report was published in early 1979), we're still left with the
> conclusions of the TWENTY or so experts who were a part of the HSCA's
> Photographic Panel, with those conclusions being:
>
> "The evidence indicates that the autopsy photographs and X-rays
> were taken of President Kennedy at the time of his autopsy and that
> they had not been altered in any manner." -- 7 HSCA 41 [linked below]
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0026a.htm
>
>
> DOUG HORNE SAID:
>
>
> >>> "Quoting old findings which did not employ optical densitometry as an analytical technique does NOT discredit his [Dr. Mantik's] work, it is simply an intellectually dishonest way of attempting to ignore it." <<<
>
>
>
> DVP SAID:
>
>
> I'm certainly not alone in my disagreements with Dr. Mantik. Many
> other people also strongly disagree with Dr. Mantik's conclusions
> regarding the photographs and X-rays, and also disagree with his
> notion that some conspirator(s) had a desire to "plant" a "6.5-
> millimeter object" onto one of JFK's X-rays after the autopsy, which
> is a notion that defies logic from all sensible points-of-view (mainly
> because it was so utterly UNNECESSARY AND SUPERFLUOUS).
>
> But Dr. David Mantik doesn't care about Occam and his handy (and
> usually accurate) razor. Instead of applying some measure of logic and
> common sense (and Occam) to the controversial matters surrounding
> JFK's murder, Dr. Mantik (and you) would rather peddle impossible-to-
> prove theories for years on end.
>
> And, of course, there will always be somebody out there in fantasy-
> land who will be ready to listen to the impossible-to-prove theories
> of conspiracy theorists like Doug Horne and David Mantik. Such is the
> way with the world.
>
>
> DOUG HORNE SAID:
>
>
> >>> "Hopefully, your attempts to dissuade people from reading my book will backfire, and badly. All of your concerns are addressed and countered, more than adequately, in my book, for those who are curious and have an open mind." <<<
>
> DVP SAID:
>
>
> I'm not attempting to "dissuade" anyone from reading your 5 volumes of
> nonsense, Doug. Not at all. Hopefully many people will buy your books.
> And among those people who buy them there will certainly be a decent-
> sized percentage of logical and reasonable folks (like me) who know
> beyond any and all doubt that none of the over-the-top theories that
> you purport as being true and valid in your book series entitled
> "Inside The Assassination Records Review Board" can possibly be
> accurate...because the stuff you think happened in November 1963 is
> just (to put it bluntly) too ridiculous to consider believing for more
> than three seconds.
>
>
>
>
> >>> "Have a nice day. And thank you for attracting more attention to my book. Surely, anyone reading this debate in the [Amazon.com] comments section will now want to buy it, to see what this is all about---so they can make their own assessments." <<<
>
>
> DVP SAID:
>
> Yeah, if only for the many belly-laughs that your impossible-to-prove
> conspiracy theories will undoubtedly elicit from the people reading
> your books.
>
> But good luck selling them anyway.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
>
> ADDENDUM:
>
> Let's just take a quick (but by no means comprehensive) inventory of a
> few of the insane and crazy things that Mr. Douglas P. Horne believes
> happened with respect to the death of the 35th U.S. Chief Executive.
>
> And keep in mind that Mr. Horne thinks that ALL of these things
> definitely occurred in connection with JFK's assassination, and this
> short list is probably only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to
> the crazy conspiracy-oriented things that Mr. Horne puts his faith in.
>
> Back in the world of sanity and REALITY, however, in order to believe
> that even ONE of the following things is actually true, a person has
> no choice but to place his faith in something that is really, really
> silly:
>
> 1.) Doug Horne believes that President Kennedy's bullet wounds were
> "altered" by Dr. James Joseph Humes at Bethesda Naval Hospital on the
> night of November 22, 1963, with the President's wounds being altered
> by Humes before the start of the official autopsy on JFK's body.
>
> 2.) Doug Horne believes that there were TWO separate brain
> examinations performed by the autopsists in late November 1963, with
> one of these supplementary brain exams being performed on a brain that
> was NOT John F. Kennedy's brain. And the second brain exam was
> apparently done on a brain that was WAY TOO BIG to even be JFK's own
> brain. (The plotters/cover-up agents involved in this silliness
> evidently had no brains at all in any of their own heads, because this
> craziness is BEYOND silly and stupid. It's utterly insane, as is #1
> above, of course.)
>
> 3.) Doug Horne believes that the Zapruder Film has been altered. And
> Horne believes the film was faked/altered/manipulated despite the fact
> that we know that the original film, both BEFORE and immediately AFTER
> it was developed and copied in Dallas on 11/22/63, was never out of
> the sight of Abraham Zapruder and/or Zapruder's business partner,
> Erwin Schwartz. But maybe Mr. Horne would like to pretend that
> ordinary Dallas citizens like Zapruder and Schwartz were also part of
> the plot to conceal all of the best evidence from the eyes of the
> American public immediately after JFK was shot.
>
> 4.) Doug Horne believes that multiple X-rays of JFK's head have been
> faked/altered.
>
> The above short list, as I mentioned, is probably only a
> above four items being things that I jotted down after listening to
> Horne's appearance on "Black Op Radio" on December 10, 2009 [linked
> below].
>
> http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black452a.ram
>
> http://www.BlackOpRadio.com/black452b.ram
>
>
> I'll close this post with some additional excellent quotes from the
> master of CS&L [Common Sense & Logic], Vince Bugliosi:
>
> "Before Doug Horne, the main beef that most conspiracy theorists
> had with the autopsy surgeons was their alleged incompetence. But
> thirty-five years after the assassination, Horne showed all these
> naive, whippersnapper conspiracy theorists a thing or two. Humes and
> Boswell weren't incompetent. They were criminals and co-conspirators.
>
> "One would think that Horne would be ashamed of himself for
> writing the memorandum he did. But to the contrary, he is very
> proud. ....
>
> "A great number of nuts have kept pumping out conspiracy
> theories for years. But these are private nuts, on the outside as it
> were. But when someone like Horne, working for an official review
> board of the federal government, someone we expect to be responsible,
> can author a document that couldn't possibly be any sillier or
> transparently irresponsible, then unfortunately we know that the
> notion of a conspiracy in the Kennedy assassination will be alive and
> well until the crack of doom.
>
> "I suppose it is a given that there will be other Doug Hornes
> who will breast-feed the conspiracy loonies for generations to come
> with their special lactations of bilge, blather, and bunk.
>
> "One wants to take earnest, well-intentioned, and intelligent
> people like Drs. David Mantik and Gary Aguilar seriously, even though
> neither of them are pathologists. But when they take someone like Doug
> Horne seriously, and accept his outrageous and patently false theory
> as completely valid, it becomes much more difficult to take them
> seriously." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 435-444 of "Reclaiming History"
>
>
> To read more of Mr. Bugliosi's common-sense debunking of Doug Horne's
> silliness, go to the top link below:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/1d034f32416ff7b6
>
> http://www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
>
> http://www.Blogger.com/profile/12501570830179992520
>
> David Von Pein
> December 19, 2009
I was already skeptical when I saw David Von Pein as the writer given some of his posts I've seen on other forums. But, I thought why not give this a read as I think Doug Horne did a yeoman's work with those 5 volumes. Further credence to Doug Horne's words being accurate far more than not stands to reason given the enormity of the position in which he was entrusted with the ARRB. As for you David von Pein, any semblance of credibility I hoped you might gain by my reading this piece from you went out the window quite early on in your writing here. This "And the second brain exam was apparently done on a brain that was WAY TOO BIG to even be JFK's own brain." What SHOULD have been said was that it was far too complete or intact. So, I guess technically at least, you are correct. However, writing it in the context you have is typical shill dis-information/propaganda. The only good thing about you writing it was it spared me having to read the rest. You should be ashamed of yourself!
Ben Holmes
philw...@gmail.com says...
>On Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:37:16 PM UTC-8, David Von Pein wrote:
>I was already skeptical when I saw David Von Pein as the writer given some =
>of his posts I've seen on other forums. But, I thought why not give this a =
>read as I think Doug Horne did a yeoman's work with those 5 volumes. Furthe=
>r credence to Doug Horne's words being accurate far more than not stands to=
> reason given the enormity of the position in which he was entrusted with t=
>he ARRB. As for you David von Pein, any semblance of credibility I hoped yo=
>u might gain by my reading this piece from you went out the window quite ea=
>rly on in your writing here. This "And the second brain exam was apparently=
> done on a brain that was WAY TOO BIG to even be JFK's own brain." What SHO=
>ULD have been said was that it was far too complete or intact. So, I guess =
>technically at least, you are correct. However, writing it in the context y=
>ou have is typical shill dis-information/propaganda. The only good thing ab=
>out you writing it was it spared me having to read the rest. You should be =
>ashamed of yourself!
All you need to know about DVP is that he's a rabid Bugliosi fan - even to the
point of calling his lie about Perry & Carrico's description of the original
throat wound as "ragged" ... just a "senile moment".
Of course, he couldn't explain that if *that* was a senile moment, how much more
of the tome is merely the mistakes of senility...
MrThumbsofThunder
tom...@cox.net
> On Thursday, December 19, 2013 6:45:26 AM UTC-8, Ben Holmes wrote:
> > >
> > >On Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:37:16 PM UTC-8, David Von Pein wrote:
> > <garbage snipped>
> >=20
> me =3D
> a =3D
> the=3D
> to=3D
> h t=3D
> yo=3D
> ea=3D
> tly=3D
> SHO=3D
> ss =3D
> t y=3D
> ab=3D
> be =3D
> > >ashamed of yourself!
> >=20
> o the=20
> nal=20
> > of the tome is merely the mistakes of senility...
> >=20
> > --=20
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> You're so very correct in your assertions all the way through about David
> years now= . His feeble attempts to denigrate Horne and anyone believing
> Horne is sham= eful. I'm guessing it's him that needs to re-buy Vinnie
> the Bug's insult to=
===========================================================================
=== SOUNDS EXACTLY LIKE THE GUY WHO RUNS HIL FAT ASS OFF EVERY TIME ANYONE
CHALLANGES HIM TO DEBATE OFFICIAL EVIDENCE/TESTIMONY FROM THE WARREN
COMMISSION'S 26 VOLUMES ! ! !
===========================================================================
====
--
-------------------- http://NewsReader.Com/ --------------------
Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
Walt
tom...@cox.net
==== wally; you never had a grandpa ! ! !
you came from under a rock perhaps you would care to debate official
evidence/testimony with me ! ! ! it would give you a chance to support the
warren commission "openly" ! ! !
===========================================================================
tom...@cox.net
===== I'M VERY P[ROUD THAT I WAS THE VERY FIRST ONE TO "OUT" YOU AS A
WARREN COMMISSION 'SHILL" ~ ~ ~ ~
===========================================================================
======