Provable Lies of the Warren Commission (#5) - Watch Rob Caprio Run! (It's a Given that the Trolls & LNT'ers will run...)
Ben Holmes
Important Note for Lurkers - there are many trolls on this forum who's only
purpose is to obstruct debate, deny the evidence, and attempt to change message
threads from discussing the evidence, to personal insults and attacks.
These trolls include (but are not limited to):
Baldoni
Bigdog
Bill
Brokedad
Bud
Burlyguard
Cdddraftsman
Chuck Schuyler
Chu...@amcmn.com
Curious
David Von Pein
Ed Dolan *
Grizzlie Antagonist
Justme1952
Martybaugh...@gmail.com
Miss Rita
much...@hotmail.com
much...@gmail.com
Sam Brown
Spiffy_one
Timst...@Gmail.com
Todd W. Vaughan
YoHarvey
Please beware when seeing their responses, and note that they will simply deny
the facts I mention, demand citations that I've provided before, or simply run
with insults. These trolls are only good material for the kill files.
* Eddie 'Disgrace' Dolan is an exception - he *should* be killfiled, but he's
amusing! And being a former Marine, even a disgraced one, is a plus.
The newest troll is "Rob Caprio" - who is sort of a reverse troll, claiming to
be a CT'er - but only going after other CT'ers. He likes to deny that I provide
evidence or citations. Watch for his comments on these questions.
**********************************************************************
Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas
School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end of World War II.
The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have been at least 20 years old,
making it extremely unreliable.
Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American ammunition
recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which manufactures such ammunition
currently. In tests with the same kind of ammunition, experts fired Oswald's
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than 100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)
The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't document it's
claim that the ammunition was recently made, or was still currently made. Their
own documentation referred to a batch of ammo made during WWII. (See CE 2694
pg. 12) The WCR simply lied.
I wonder if the moron can admit that I've just made my case using evidence and
citation?
Or if any LNT'ers can explain this lie on the part of the Warren Commission?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
mucher1
#snipped selv-serving drivel#
> Speculation.--Ammunition for the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas
> School Book Depository had not been manufactured since the end of World War II.
> The ammunition used by Oswald must, therefore, have been at least 20 years old,
> making it extremely unreliable.
>
> Commission finding.--The ammunition used in the rifle was American ammunition
> recently made by the Western Cartridge Co., which manufactures such ammunition
> currently. In tests with the same kind of ammunition, experts fired Oswald's
> Mannlicher-Carcano rifle more than 100 times without any misfires. (WCR 646)
>
> The "Speculation" is merely a statement of fact - the WC couldn't document it's
> claim that the ammunition was recently made, or was still currently made. Their
> own documentation referred to a batch of ammo made during WWII. (See CE 2694
> pg. 12) The WCR simply lied.
>
> I wonder if the moron can admit that I've just made my case using evidence and
> citation?
>
> Or if any LNT'ers can explain this lie on the part of the Warren Commission?
According to ol' Yella Pants, the ammunition used by Oswald was
*extremely unreliable*.
According to the WCR, experts fired Oswald's rifle more than 100
times, using the same kind of ammunition, without any misfires.
Who seems to be lying here--Yella Pants or the WC?
David Von Pein
>>> "According to the WCR, experts fired Oswald's rifle more than 100 times, using the same kind of ammunition, without any misfires." <<<
And John Lattimer fired 700 rounds of WCC/MC ammunition without a
single misfire. In all, up to 1980, there had been more than 900
rounds of WCC/MC bullets fired by Lattimer, the FBI, et al, without a
single misfire being reported. [Pages 288-289 of "Kennedy And Lincoln"
by Dr. John K. Lattimer; c.1980.]
robcap...@netscape.com
He hasn't even tried to defend most of them either! Why is he so
obsessed with the small stuff and NOT the big stuff IF he is really a
CTer. Like the issue of ammo in this post. The WC shill acts like
because the WC lied about the ammo not being 20 years old he has
earned his "street cred" back as a CTer (his cover), but the liar
known as Ben totally ignores the BIGGER ISSUE! The WC NEVER showed us
where LHO ever purchased this ammo in the first place! Just like the
40" Carcano claim, there is NO evidence ever linking LHO to this ammo!
But Ben hides this part as he claims LHO ordered, received, owned and
posed with the 40" Carcano (and probably claims he purchased ammo for
it too!) and that it was HIGH VELOCITY as the WC said!
He is a major league WC shill! Luckily for us he is a really bad
liar, but then again, what LNer isn't?
1) LHO ordered a 40" Carcano.
2) LHO received a 40" Carcano.
3) LHO owned a 40" Carcano (CE-139/C2766).
4) LHO posed with a 40" Carcano.
5) LHO's alleged 40" Carcano was high velocity.
6) LHO went to Mexico City for sure due to overwhelming evidence.
7) LHO had Marina take CE-133A and it is GENUINE.
8) LHO altered his own chin in CE-133A in the SAME MANNER others would
alter it in the other copies.
9) The clip was INSIDE the Carcano when it was found.
10) ONLY doctors with ballistics training can locate a back wound
correctly.
11) NO doctors have ballistic exptertise.
12) The FBI had IMMEDIATE JURISDICTION for the JFK murder.
13) The FBI has jurisidiction for ALL FELONIES in the U.S.
14) The vast majority of folks charged with a crime are guilty!
15) FMJ bullets routinely break into three pieces.
16) An INCONCLUSIVE ballistic test result FAVORS the WC (prosecution's
side) when they had THE BURDEN OF PROOF!
17) Much of the evidence against LHO PREDATES the Tampa attempt
(11/18/63).
18) The *MAJOR IMPETUS* for the government's coverup of the crime was
due to Valery Kostikov!
19) CE-573 (copper jacketed bullet) was used by LHO to shoot at Walker
when the official DPD report listed a STEEL JACKETED type!
20) Marina's claim of LHO shooting at Walker has corroboration
evidence.
21) That LHO had his watch fixed after it BROKE in 10/62 when YOUR own
cite (Marina) said he never did POST-ASSASSINATION!
22) That a low velocity CIVIL WAR MUSKET BALL killed JFK!
23) That JFK NEVER lived.
24) That a FMJ could do the damage seen in JFK's head.
25) That NO doctor at Parkland Hospital (a hospital that had hundred
of gunshot victims a year) was qualified to say a high velocity bullet
killed JFK.
26) That Lt. Day's claim of lifting a palmprint was as EQUALLY
PERSUASIVE as Latona's test results.
27) That due to NO doctor at PH having ballistic experience they could
NOT properly place the wound at T-3.
28) That the Bill of Lading proves 40" Carcanos were shipped to
Klein's in 2/63.
29) That LHO knew Silvia Duran because her name was in his alleged
notebook.
30) That many CT authors agree with you about there being
"overwhelming evidence" showing us LHO went to Mexico City when the WC/
CIA said he did!
31) Murder trials are held in Civil Courts too!
32) The overwhelming percentages of people who are charged with a
crime are guilty!
33) It is generally easy for the prosecution to lay out a case.
34) IF the defense is not sharp and busy presenting evidence of its
own, the defendent is prison-bound.
35) That Dr. Finck never discussed the fragments in the wrist of JBC
outweighing the amount lost by the “magic bullet” (CE399) UNTIL the
Garrison trial!
36) That no doctor was asked during their testimony before the WC to
ID the murder weapon.
37) That there were three eyewitnesses who corroborate LHO’s trip to
Mexico City as they saw him at a party at Silvia Duran’s house.
38) That Hoover told Robert Frazier to lie to the WC and that the
evidence indicates this!
robcap...@netscape.com
Mark -- why not show us where LHO got this ammo from??? Do you have
any evidence showing us LHO purchased any ammo?
robcap...@netscape.com
Dave, same question, where is your evidence showing LHO purchased this
ammo?
aeffects
> >>> "Dave, same question, where is your evidence showing LHO purchased this ammo?" <<<
>
> things together (things that Kook Robcap will ignore and distort under
> the day he succumbs, of course):
<snip the lone nut lunacy>
KOOK David Von Pein -- do YOU not understand English, troll?
robcap...@netscape.com
> >>> "Dave, same question, where is your evidence showing LHO purchased this ammo?" <<<
>
> things together (things that Kook Robcap will ignore and distort under
> the day he succumbs, of course):
So the liar admits he will take a conclusion he claims to have reached
(with no supporting evidence behind it) and then he makes ALL THINGS
fit it despite NOTHING fitting it! Good job Dave, you have
highlighted your dishonesty perfectly for the lurkers.
Aren't you working BACKWARDS Dave from the normal process?? YOUR
method would have fit into Nazi Germany, Communist Russia or any other
DICTATORSHIP/TOTALITARIAN regime, but this country is supposed to be
different. Would you want to be treated this way if you were on trial
for something?
> 1.) Oswald shot JFK.
This is a claim you support, but there is NO evidence showing he ever
did.
> 2.) Oswald used MC Rifle #C2766 to achieve #1 above.
Again, just a claim by you and the WC, you can't support it though
with evidence.
> And the ammo for Rifle C2766 was quite obviously readsily available in
> the United States as of November 1963.
Then why can't you or the WC show us where LHO purchased it then?? Why
are you running from the question?
> How can we know the above sentence contains the truth?
YOU claim LHO shot JFK with 6.5mm ammo, WHERE DID HE GET IT FROM
DAVE?? How could the WC leave this question unanswered and claim to
have done a good job?
> Answer: The fact that Klein's in Chicago was selling the ammunition
> for the "6.5 Italian Carbine" in November 1963 (via this magazine
> advertisement):
But the order form YOUR beloved WC gave us shows he DID NOT ELECT TO
PURCHASE AMMO OR A CLIP!
YOUR own evidence shows he did NOT order ammo from Klein's. Where did
he get it from Dave?
> http://Reclaiming-History.googlegroups.com/web/122a.+KLEIN%27S+AD+FEA...
>
> http://Reclaiming-History.googlegroups.com/web/122aa.+KLEIN%27S+AD+FE...
>
> Now, yes, it's true that Oswald decided to not spend the extra $7.50
> for the 108 bullets that Klein's offered at the bottom of the carbine
> ad, but it's fairly obvious to all sensible, reasonable people that
> Lee Oswald DID obtain some bullets prior to 11/22/63 (and prior to
> 4/10/63 as well).
LOL!! This is not about what seems to be, it is a murder case that
REQUIRES evidence to attribute guilt. NOW, show us where LHO got his
6.5mm ammo from Dave or admit you don't know and lie when you say he
had ammo.
> Footnote -- Oswald was probably in a "cheap" mode when he ordered the
> rifle, and he might very well have felt that 108 rounds of ammo (which
> is the quantity that was being sold by Klein's) was way more than he
> would need in his attempted murder for Retired Major General Edwin A.
> Walker on April 10th, 1963, so he decided to buy a smaller quantity of
> Carcano bullets someplace else.
Where did he decide to purchase this "smaller quantity" from Dave???
That was the question I asked you! YOU have made Klein's an issue,
NOT me! Why can't you answer the question?
David Von Pein
>>> "Dave, where is your evidence showing LHO purchased this ammo?" <<<
The proof that LHO acquired the ammo is gained by adding the following
things together (things that Kook Robcap will ignore and distort until
the day he succumbs, of course):
1.) Oswald shot JFK.
2.) Oswald used MC Rifle #C2766 to achieve #1 above.
And the ammo for Rifle C2766 was quite obviously readily available in
the United States as of November 1963.
How can we know my last sentence contains the truth?
Answer: The fact that Klein's in Chicago was selling the ammunition
for the "6.5 Italian Carbine" in November 1963 (via this magazine
advertisement):
Now, yes, it's true that Oswald decided he didn't want to spend the
extra $7.50 for the 108 bullets that Klein's offered at the bottom of
the carbine ad, but it's fairly obvious to all sensible, reasonable
people that Lee Oswald DID obtain some bullets prior to 11/22/63 (and
prior to 4/10/63 as well).
Footnote -- Oswald was probably in a "cheap" mode when he ordered the
rifle, and he might very well have felt that 108 rounds of ammo (which
is the quantity that was being sold by Klein's) was way more than he
would need in his attempt to murder General Edwin Walker on April 10,
David Von Pein
>>> "YOU claim LHO shot JFK with 6.5mm ammo. WHERE DID HE GET IT FROM DAVE?? How could the WC leave this question unanswered and claim to have done a good job?" <<<
Because it's impossible for ANYBODY (including the Warren Commission)
to answer the unanswerable question of: WHERE DID OSWALD BUY HIS
BULLETS?
But just because that question cannot be answered, that doesn't mean
Oswald bought NO WCC/MC BULLETS to put in his weapon, Mr. Moron.
I suppose to kooks like Robert Caprio and Benjamin Holmes, it would be
impossible to prove that O.J. Simpson stabbed two people to death on
the night of June 12, 1994 (even though Simpson's fresh blood was
found at the murder scene), simply because the prosecution couldn't
prove WHERE Simpson purchased the knife he used to hack up Nicole
Brown and Ron Goldman.
Right, Rob?
>>> "Where did he [LHO] decide to purchase this "smaller quantity" from Dave?" <<<
Well, the Warren Commission located two places in Dallas where Oswald
could have purchased his WCC/Carcano bullets -- Mason's Gun Shop, 7402
Harry Hines Boulevard, and a place called simply The Gun Shop, located
at 11448 Harry Hines Boulevard.
Quoting from Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2694:
"On March 26, 1964, Mr. John Thomas Mason, owner, Mason's Gun
Shop, 7402 Harry Hines Boulevard, telephone number FL 7-4758,
residence address 3023 Mayhew, telephone number BR 9-5525, advised he
purchased about ten boxes of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano, Western
Cartridge Company, ammunition from Johnny Brinegar in early 1963 and
that he sold these ten boxes to individuals.
"He stated he was not able to recall the identity of any persons
to whom he sold this ammunition. He claimed he sold this ammunition
with a military load. He advised if he had sold more than a box or two
to any one person he would have remembered the sale.
"Mr. Mason stated he purchased another ten boxes of this same
type ammunition from Brinegar, date not recalled, but possibly during
the summer of 1963."
[...]
"On March 26, 1964, Mr. John H . Brinegar, owner, The Gun Shop,
11448 Harry Hines Boulevard, telephone CH 7-2600, advised he purchased
one case of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company,
ammunition from the Century Arms Company, Alexandria, West Virginia,
in 1962 after seeing it advertised, as he recalled, for $45 per 1000
rounds.
"Mr. Brinegar stated he sold about ten boxes of this ammunition
to John Mason, owner, Mason's Gun Shop, in early 1963 and traded him
another ten boxes later, possibly during the summer, 1963. He advised
he has six boxes of this ammunition left at present." [CE2694; at 26 H
63.]
26 H 63:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0050a.htm
This whole "Where Did Oswald Get His Bullets?" topic is merely a silly
game that is played by the idiots who reside in the popular "Anybody
But Oswald" club on the Internet. It's not, however, an issue that
needs to be resolved in order to prove that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered
John F. Kennedy.
The Warren Commission obviously didn't think that such a question
needed to be answered about Oswald's ammo in order to arrive at its
conclusion concerning Oswald's guilt.
Plus, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, 15 years after the
Warren Commission, ALSO concluded that Oswald killed President Kennedy
with 6.5mm. WCC/MC ammunition. You do realize that fact, don't you
Rob?
robcap...@netscape.com
> >>> "YOU claim LHO shot JFK with 6.5mm ammo. WHERE DID HE GET IT FROM DAVE?? How could the WC leave this question unanswered and claim to have done a good job?" <<<
>
> Because it's impossible for ANYBODY (including the Warren Commission)
> to answer the unanswerable question of: WHERE DID OSWALD BUY HIS
> BULLETS?
Why is it "unaswerable" Dave?? Didn't they have the DPD, FBI and CIA
working for them supposedly? How hard is it to find the place LHO
purchased ammo from? I mean they went to hundreds of DRY CLEANERS in
Dallas and New Orleans to see if they could match the tag found in the
jacket to LHO, but they couldn't do the same to see where he purchased
some ammo that allegedly killed the President?
Just how gullible do you think we are Dave?
> But just because that question cannot be answered, that doesn't mean
> Oswald bought NO WCC/MC BULLETS to put in his weapon, Mr. Moron.
I MEANS EXACTLY THAT IN A COURT OF LAW Dave, and NO matter how many
times you say this is silly this is where MURDER CASES ARE SOLVED!
Why can't you show us where he purchased the ammo Dave?? This would
lead most reasonable, logical people to think -- WHAT ELSE CAN'T HE
SHOW US?
YOU have an empty claim as usual Dave.
> I suppose to kooks like Robert Caprio and Benjamin Holmes, it would be
> impossible to prove that O.J. Simpson stabbed two people to death on
> the night of June 12, 1994 (even though Simpson's fresh blood was
> found at the murder scene), simply because the prosecution couldn't
> prove WHERE Simpson purchased the knife he used to hack up Nicole
> Brown and Ron Goldman.
That is NOT the point Dave, the point is YOUR beloved WC did NOT even
waste the time to show us that someone else gave it to him (God forbid
for folks like you) or that he stole the ammo from "x" place. They
showed us nothing. They just claimed he had a rifle with ammo and
never linked it to him.
I am NOT an expert on the O.J. trial so I have no idea what lengths
the prosecution went to in regards to the knife being tied to O.J.,
but from just general knowledge I know a knife is NOT the same as a
pistol/rifle! NO one has to REGISTER their knife Dave!
I do know the WC claimed LHO ordered, received, owned and used the
alleged murder weapon, so the question of where did he get his ammo
from is valid since YOU have also said he did NOT get it from
Klein's. Ditto the clip!
> Right, Rob?
Apples and orange comparisons won't help you out Dave. YOU claimed
LHO had ammo, now where did he get it from?
> >>> "Where did he [LHO] decide to purchase this "smaller quantity" from Dave?" <<<
>
> Well, the Warren Commission located two places in Dallas where Oswald
> could have purchased his WCC/Carcano bullets -- Mason's Gun Shop, 7402
> Harry Hines Boulevard, and a place called simply The Gun Shop, located
> at 11448 Harry Hines Boulevard.
See how easy that was?? Just two places, but all we get is a "could
have" from them! Why can't they find the place he did PURCHASE ammo
from IF he did?
> Quoting from Warren Commission Exhibit No. 2694:
>
> "On March 26, 1964, Mr. John Thomas Mason, owner, Mason's Gun
> Shop, 7402 Harry Hines Boulevard, telephone number FL 7-4758,
> residence address 3023 Mayhew, telephone number BR 9-5525, advised he
> purchased about ten boxes of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano, Western
> Cartridge Company, ammunition from Johnny Brinegar in early 1963 and
> that he sold these ten boxes to individuals.
Is LHO listed as one of these individuals?? NO.
> "He stated he was not able to recall the identity of any persons
> to whom he sold this ammunition. He claimed he sold this ammunition
> with a military load. He advised if he had sold more than a box or two
> to any one person he would have remembered the sale.
So we are dealing with boxes here, explain why the only rounds LHO
supposedly had were left at the TSBD then? Also, explain why NO other
ammo was ever found among LHO's possessions either! Where did this
box or so of ammo go to if one of the people Masen mentions was LHO
(and he never said this)? Keep in mind, Masen was suppose to have a
strong resemblance to LHO himself.
> "Mr. Mason stated he purchased another ten boxes of this same
> type ammunition from Brinegar, date not recalled, but possibly during
> the summer of 1963."
>
> [...]
>
> "On March 26, 1964, Mr. John H . Brinegar, owner, The Gun Shop,
> 11448 Harry Hines Boulevard, telephone CH 7-2600, advised he purchased
> one case of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano, Western Cartridge Company,
> ammunition from the Century Arms Company, Alexandria, West Virginia,
> in 1962 after seeing it advertised, as he recalled, for $45 per 1000
> rounds.
>
> "Mr. Brinegar stated he sold about ten boxes of this ammunition
> to John Mason, owner, Mason's Gun Shop, in early 1963 and traded him
> another ten boxes later, possibly during the summer, 1963. He advised
> he has six boxes of this ammunition left at present." [CE2694; at 26 H
> 63.]
>
> 26 H 63:http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/html/WH_Vol26_0...
>
> This whole "Where Did Oswald Get His Bullets?" topic is merely a silly
> game that is played by the idiots who reside in the popular "Anybody
> But Oswald" club on the Internet. It's not, however, an issue that
> needs to be resolved in order to prove that Lee Harvey Oswald murdered
> John F. Kennedy.
>
> The Warren Commission obviously didn't think that such a question
> needed to be answered about Oswald's ammo in order to arrive at its
> conclusion concerning Oswald's guilt.
>
> Plus, the House Select Committee on Assassinations, 15 years after the
> Warren Commission, ALSO concluded that Oswald killed President Kennedy
> with 6.5mm. WCC/MC ammunition. You do realize that fact, don't you
> Rob?
Concluding and proving with evidence are two different things Dave.
YOU have NO evidence showing LHO purchased any rifle or ammo. YOU are
working on a false claim here.
Just admit it and move on.
Ben Holmes
David Von Pein
>>> "Why can't they find the place he [LHO] did PURCHASE ammo from, IF he did?" <<<
Because there is very likely NO RECORD of the purchase. And WHY would
there be? Do you think every gun shop has a record of every bullet
they sold in 1963?
Is it truly POSSIBLE for Robcap to be this stupid??
The two gun shops I referenced previously [via CE2694] obviously had
NO WRITTEN RECORDS AT ALL of any of the WCC/MC bullets they sold to
customers. Because if they had such records, then the two gun shop
owners would have been able to say for certain whether or not Oswald
had purchased any bullets from them in 1963. (If LHO had used his real
name, of course, which he probably wouldn't have anyway. But if he had
used "Hidell", then that would be the tip-off that it was Oswald. Do
you think Oswald/Hidell was forced to sign a receipt for his bullets?)
curtjester1
Would the shops even be selling such outdated ammo?
Related stuff.
Harvey and Lee pgs. 447-48
We have no learned there was nothing in the documents from the
*Elletra Fascio*, the Harborside Terminal Warehouse, Fred Rupp, North
Penn, nor Lifschultz that showed a 40-inch Italian rifle, serial
number C2766, was delivered to Klein's in February 1963. According
to
Fred Rupp, the shipment of T-38" rifles he serviced in the fall of
1962 were 36-inch rifles.
JFK researchers have long wondered how Klein's could have shipped a
*40-inch* Italian rifle to "A.Hidell", when the only Mannlicher-
Carcanos they offered for sale in early 1963 *were **36-inch**
rifles.* We will now review the shipping documents the FBI gave to
the WC to see if they offer a clue as to the length of the rifles
delievered to Klein's in February.
After servicing the rifles Fred Rupp re-packed each rifle in a
cardboard box and then put 10 of the boxes into a larger cardboard
carton for shipment to Klein's. North Penn Transfer and Lifschultz
transported the 10 cartons of rifles which weighed, according to the
bills of lading, a total of 750 pounds. Therefore each of the 100
rifles, *including packing materials*, weighed no more than 7.5
pounds.
According to the FBI a *40-inch* Mannlicher-Carcano weighs ***7
pounds, 11 ounces***. Ten cartons (100 rifles) of ***40-inch
rifles*** (7 lbs, 11 oz. each) and 110 cardboard cartons would weigh
over 800 pounds, which is *far in excess of the 750 pounds recorded
on
the North Penn and Lifschultz bills of lading.*
According to the FBI a *36-inch* Mannlicher-Carcano weighs between 6
lbs. 8 1/2 ounces (91/24 TS) and 7 lbs (Model 38). Ten cartons of
(100 rifles) of *36-inch* rifles (6.5-7 lbs each) and 110 cardboard
cartons would weigh between 705 and 750 pounds-*precisely the weight
listed on North Penn Transfer and Lifschultz Fast Freight bills of
lading.*
*It is therefore almost certain that Fred Rupp shipped 10 cartons of
36-inch Italian carbine rifles to Kleins' via North Penn Transfer and
Lifschultz Fast Freight in February, 1963. These *36-inch* rifles
are
consistent with Klein's order for 400 Model 91TS rifles, consistent
with their advertisements in early 1963, consistent with the "T"
designations gien to the Model "38 E" by Crescent which Fred Rupp
identified as the *36-inch* rifles, *not identified by carton or
serial number*, arrived at the Klein's receiving department on
February 21, 1963. *The **40-inch** Mannlicher Carcano later found
on
the 6th floor of the Book Depository, serial number C2766, was not
among them.**
***NOTE*** It appears as though the carton numbers (and probably the
serial numbers) listed on the Harborside Warehouse, Fred Rupps',
North
Penn, and Lifschultz documents were removed by the FBI prior to
giving
them tothe Warren Commission so that none of the rifles could be
identified. **Neither the FBI nor the WC sought to locate the
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial number C2766, which Crescent
Firearms
sold to Kleins' on June 18, 1962.**
A 4-Power Scope Is Mounted On 36" Mannlicher-Carcano Rifles
The 40-inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on the 6th floor of the
TSBD by Dallas Police was equipped with a 4-power Japanese scope.
The idea of mounting a 4-power Japanese scope onto surplus 6.5 mm M-C
carbines originated with Klein's employee Mitchell Westra. The scope
was manufactured in Japan but stamped with the name of the company
that manufactured mounts for the scope, Ordinance Optics, Inc., of
Hollywood, Calif. Westra was not interviewed by the Warren
Commission, but told the House Select Committee on Assassinations
(HSCA), "*Klein's would not have mounted scopes on 40-inch
Mannlicher-
Carcanos.*
William Sharp was Klein's in-house gunsmith and was the man who
actually mounted the scope and bracket onto the rifles. The scope
could not be mounted directly over the rifle barrel, like most
scopes,
because the ammunition clip had to be loaded into the gun from the
top. The scope had to be offset and a special mounting bracket was
needed to position the scope above and to the left of the center of
the barrel. Sharp was never interviewed by the WC, but in 1978 was
asked by the HSCA, "Did you mount scopes on the 40.2 inch rifle"?
Sharp answereed, "*The particular package deal Klein's was trying to
market was a 36-inch carbine with a 4-power scope."*
The magazine from which Oswald *allegedly* clipped the order coupon
and purchased the mail order rifle was the February 1963 issue of
*American Rifleman*. In this issue Klein's offered "only 36-inch
Mannlicher-Carcano carbines*, with or without the 4-powere Japanese
scope (*The 40-inch Mannlicher-Carcano was not advertised for sale
until April, 1963).*
***NOTE*** The Commission interviewed neither the Klein's employee
who
came up with the idea of mounting scopes on the Mannlicher-Carcano
nor
the man who mounted the scopes, ** because both men knew that Klein's
was trying to market the 36-inch rifles with scopes.**
End.
Pg. 459
When shown a photograph of Lee HARVEY Oswald, Ryder (Dwayne Dial)
said
that he associated Oswald's picture with that of an individual who
brought in an Argentine made rifle about two weeks ago and had a
scope
attached to the gun. But Ryder explained that an Argentine rifle has
a different bolt assembly than the gun found on the 6th floor of the
TSBD. *The FBI neither asked Ryder for the name and address of the
man who brought in the Argentine rifle, nor did they review the
shop's
repair tickets, nor did they make any attempts to learn if the
individual ever existed.* ***NOTE** The owner of the Irving Sports
Shop, Mr. Charles W. Greene, telephoned all of the Oswalds listed in
the Dallas and Irving telephone directories in an attempt to locate
the "Oswald" listed on repair ticket 18374, but was unsuccessful.
Oswald At The Sports Drome Shooting Range
http://www.jfk-online.com/oswaldrifle.html
Here are interviews of people who had associated with LEE Oswald
(probably) on the range. Interests are his having a fancy scope on
his rifle from a nearby town for $18, and his superior prowess on the
range, with some of their dealings with him, and their opinion of
'his' rifle vs. the one found in the TSBD. Also in Harvey and Lee,
there are differing records of Harvey and Lee shooting on the range,
and I believe they had to suppress one. (Can't locate it in the
book). The gist was that LEE was an extremely good shot and shot in
the 230's for his score compared with the lesser outcomes for HARVEY
that are more noted in the research community.
CJ
robcap...@netscape.com
> >>> "Why can't they find the place he [LHO] did PURCHASE ammo from, IF he did?" <<<
>
> Because there is very likely NO RECORD of the purchase.
So there is NO way to show LHO ever purchased any ammo, yet you accuse
him of doing so! Seems kinda unfair to me Dave.
> And WHY would
> there be?
Don't know, but it seems someone should have recognized him if he did
purchase ammo from them.
Why did they find NO ammo among his stuff? Surely LHO would have had
to purchase a box of ammo, not 4 rounds as they found at the TSBD.
> Do you think every gun shop has a record of every bullet
> they sold in 1963?
Don't know, but it seems in the case of the President's murder they
should have been able to find someone who said they recognized LHO as
the person they sold the ammo to IF they did do so.
I mean, look at all the effort they put into the laundry tag on the
jacket!
> Is it truly POSSIBLE for Robcap to be this stupid??
I'm NOT the one claiming things I can't support -- YOU are! Just how
dumb are you Dave?
> The two gun shops I referenced previously [via CE2694] obviously had
> NO WRITTEN RECORDS AT ALL of any of the WCC/MC bullets they sold to
> customers. Because if they had such records, then the two gun shop
> owners would have been able to say for certain whether or not Oswald
> had purchased any bullets from them in 1963.
Records alone are worthless as we know many folks were claiming to be
LHO in the weeks leading up to the assassination, so how would we know
it was the REAL one? NO, you need a witness that could I.D. him as
the person who purchased the ammo. Do you have any witnesses like
this Dave?
> (If LHO had used his real
> name, of course, which he probably wouldn't have anyway.
Why wouldn't he? YOU just said NO one kept records anyway!
> But if he had
> used "Hidell", then that would be the tip-off that it was Oswald.
Why? There is NO firm evidence showing he ever used Hidell for
anything. The alias he used at the rooming house was O.H. Lee, and
this is the ONLY one they DPD listed on his arrest report.
> Do
> you think Oswald/Hidell was forced to sign a receipt for his bullets?)
Why are YOU NOT answering the question I asked or admitting you have
NO way to prove LHO ever purchased any ammo?
YOU are relying on guess work, and it is bad guess work to boot.
David Von Pein
Rob,
Does it make any difference to you that BOTH the WC & HSCA said that
C2766 was the weapon that killed JFK, and that LHO was the person who
killed him? (Hence, the WC & HSCA was of the opinion, obviously, that
Oswald had obtained some bullets to put into his gun before killing
JFK with that gun.)
10-4, Mr. Nutcase?
David Von Pein
>>> "Would the shops even be selling such outdated ammo?" <<<
Yes.
BOB FRAZIER - There was one live cartridge found. They are identical.
HALE BOGGS - And the live one was manufactured also by----
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, the Western Cartridge Co. It bears the head stamp
"WCC" and "6.5 mm. "
Mr. BOGGS - These are not difficult to obtain? You can buy them
anywhere?
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, you can buy them from mail-order houses primarily,
or a few gun shops that have accumulated a supply by ordering them.
The information we have is that two million rounds were imported into
the United States in one lot, one shipment--and they have been
transmitted over the country and are for sale by several different
surplus gun shops--used guns--mail-order houses and places of that
nature and gunsmiths, and firearms shops sell this ammunition.
Ben Holmes
"When the rifle was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building it
contained a clip which bore the letters "SMI" (the manufacturer's markings) and
the number "952" (possibly a part number or the manufacturer's code number)."
(WCR 555)
The statement references the testimony of Captain Fritz (4H 205) and Lt. Day (4H
258). In neither reference does the clip appear. The WC has simply lied - using
citations that do *not* support their claim. There are many more problems with
this alleged clip - but it would take a separate post to detail. See Silvia
Meagher's Accessories After the Fact for one discussion of the problems of
evidence for this clip.
(Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
mucher1
> "When the rifle was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building it
> contained a clip which bore the letters "SMI" (the manufacturer's markings) and
> the number "952" (possibly a part number or the manufacturer's code number)."
> (WCR 555)
>
> The statement references the testimony of Captain Fritz (4H 205) and Lt. Day (4H
> 258). In neither reference does the clip appear. The WC has simply lied - using
> citations that do *not* support their claim. There are many more problems with
> this alleged clip - but it would take a separate post to detail. See Silvia
> Meagher's Accessories After the Fact for one discussion of the problems of
> evidence for this clip.
>
> (Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
Excellent idea to assign all your spam questions the same number,
moron.
robcap...@netscape.com
> Rob,
>
> Does it make any difference to you that BOTH the WC & HSCA said that
> C2766 was the weapon that killed JFK, and that LHO was the person who
> killed him?
Without SUPPORTING EVIDENCE NO!!!! It is just a claim or an opinion.
Neither convict someone in a court of law Dave. NOW show us evidence
that ties LHO to the rifle and ammo or admit you are rendering an
OPINION and nothing else.
Don't panic, Ben will help you eventually!
> (Hence, the WC & HSCA was of the opinion, obviously, that
> Oswald had obtained some bullets to put into his gun before killing
> JFK with that gun.)
See?? He knows it is JUST AN OPINION but he acts like it it is a
proven fact!!!!
Very dishonest stuff Dave.
> 10-4, Mr. Nutcase?
LOL!! He thinks opinions are FACTS and I'm the "nutcase!" Good one
Dave!
robcap...@netscape.com
The ONLY one nuts is YOU! YOU have said the opposite of this before
when YOU were caught in a lie! Didn't you say this?
“…that a clip was in the rifle when it was found,…” (Robert, edited by
Ben)
“The evidence clearly shows this. You can't cite otherwise.” (Ben
Holmes—4/7/10)
NOW you appear to be saying there was NO clip in the Carcano when it
was found! Which is it?
YOU would even lie and say it was "inventoried" on 11/22/63 when it
was not? Why the change in strategy here Ben?? Trying desperately to
save your "cover", huh?
Ben Holmes
robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
>On May 26, 9:36=A0am, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>> **********************************************************************
>ly
>> purpose is to obstruct debate, deny the evidence, and attempt to change m=
> deny
>> the facts I mention, demand citations that I've provided before, or simpl=
>y run
>> with insults. These trolls are only good material for the kill files.
>>
>he's
>> amusing! And being a former Marine, even a disgraced one, is a plus.
>>
>ng to
>> be a CT'er - but only going after other CT'ers. He likes to deny that I p=
>rovide
>> evidence or citations. Watch for his comments on these questions.
>> **********************************************************************
>>
>> "When the rifle was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building it
>s) and
>> the number "952" (possibly a part number or the manufacturer's code numbe=
>r)."
>> (WCR 555)
>>
>> The statement references the testimony of Captain Fritz (4H 205) and Lt. =
>Day (4H
>> 258). In neither reference does the clip appear. The WC has simply lied -=
> using
>> citations that do *not* support their claim. There are many more problems=
> with
>> this alleged clip - but it would take a separate post to detail. See Silv=
>ia
>> Meagher's Accessories After the Fact for one discussion of the problems o=
>f
>> evidence for this clip.
>>
>> (Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
>
>The ONLY one nuts is YOU! YOU have said the opposite of this
Nope... never happened.
The "opposite" of pointing out that the WC's evidence they cited doesn't support
their assertion would be that the evidence they cited *DOES* support their
assertion.
You cannot find such a statement by me, since I've never made it.
>NOW you appear to be saying there was NO clip in the Carcano when it
>was found!
You see? I *knew* you'd see things that aren't there...
>Which is it?
Yep... I knew you'd go nuts on this post. You simply don't have the intelligence
to read and understand.
>YOU would even lie and say it was "inventoried" on 11/22/63 when it
>was not?
You can't provide any citation to support such a lie. Nor will you even try.
I knew you'd go nuts on this post... I predicted it, and sure enough, you jumped
on it.
But sadly, you refuse to admit that I'm absolutely correct in this post - I
suspect that you've not even bothered to check the references cited.
robcap...@netscape.com
> In article <7462b858-425d-4367-99b8-3c0f1b30b...@q33g2000vbt.googlegroups.com>,
> robcap...@netscape.com says...
(snip header and old stuff)
> >> (Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
>
> >The ONLY one nuts is YOU! YOU have said the opposite of this
>
> Nope... never happened.
Sure did liar. YOU argued, with Walt, that a clip was INSIDE THE
CARCANO WHEN IT WAS FOUND!
> The "opposite" of pointing out that the WC's evidence they cited doesn't support
> their assertion would be that the evidence they cited *DOES* support their
> assertion.
YOU claimed it did as you insisted, along with Walt, that there was a
clip ALREADY INSIDE THE CARCANO when it was found. Why deny your own
claims liar?
> You cannot find such a statement by me, since I've never made it.
LOL!! I did find it and provided it and as usual YOU snipped it! Here
it is again liar!
“…that a clip was in the rifle when it was found,…” (Robert, edited
by
Ben)
“The evidence clearly shows this. You can't cite otherwise.” (Ben
Holmes—4/7/10)
What "evidence" shows it clearly that the clip was inside the rifle at
the time of discovery liar?
> >NOW you appear to be saying there was NO clip in the Carcano when it
> >was found!
>
> You see? I *knew* you'd see things that aren't there...
YOU are saying there is NO evidence for the claim of there being a
clip inside the rifle at the tiime of discovery, YET YOU and Walt have
argued with me that it was there. YOU are person who makes assertions
with NO evidence supporting you!
> >Which is it?
>
> Yep... I knew you'd go nuts on this post. You simply don't have the intelligence
> to read and understand.
I can read your words and understand them (heck, a 1st grader could do
that) and YOU are playing both sides of the fence again Ben. YOU lied
when you argued the clip was inside the rifle when it was found and
this proves to us YOU know there is NO evidence to support such a
claim yet you made it anyway. NOW, we see you know there is none but
you said it anyway and claimed there was evidence.
Liar, aren't you?
> >YOU would even lie and say it was "inventoried" on 11/22/63 when it
> >was not?
>
> You can't provide any citation to support such a lie. Nor will you even try.
When will this liar learn that I have his words saved?? Let's see how
fast he CENSORS THEM OUT, okay?
What is this liar?
“Then explain why NO clip was mentioned, seen, photographed or
inventoried by the DPD.” (Robert to Walt)
“Untrue. The clip *WAS* inventoried on 11/22/63.” (Ben Holmes—
12/22/09)
LOL!! YOU are such a liar and denier Ben. It won't work anymore. Two
of your most often used weapons are out of service.
> I knew you'd go nuts on this post... I predicted it, and sure enough, you jumped
> on it.
I am NOT going nuts as you say, I am merely showing everyone what a
two-faced liar you are! I have many other examples of this too.
> But sadly, you refuse to admit that I'm absolutely correct in this post - I
> suspect that you've not even bothered to check the references cited.
I know what the WC lied about Ben, I don't need you to educate me. By
the way, where is the suppporting evidence for these claims of yours?
Ben Holmes
(Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
robcap...@netscape.com
IF we look for his responses to my last post that showed he is a
rotten liar this is what we have left!
Ooops, nothing left!
Ben Holmes
robcap...@netscape.com
say snipping things you have NOT responded to was COWARDLY?? I am
pretty sure you did coward!
NOW, respond to this!
(snip header and old stuff)
> >> (Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
> >The ONLY one nuts is YOU! YOU have said the opposite of this
> Nope... never happened.
Sure did liar. YOU argued, with Walt, that a clip was INSIDE THE
CARCANO WHEN IT WAS FOUND!
> The "opposite" of pointing out that the WC's evidence they cited doesn't support
> their assertion would be that the evidence they cited *DOES* support their
> assertion.
YOU claimed it did as you insisted, along with Walt, that there was a
clip ALREADY INSIDE THE CARCANO when it was found. Why deny your own
claims liar?
> You cannot find such a statement by me, since I've never made it.
LOL!! I did find it and provided it and as usual YOU snipped it!
Here
it is again liar!
“…that a clip was in the rifle when it was found,…” (Robert, edited
by
Ben)
“The evidence clearly shows this. You can't cite otherwise.” (Ben
Holmes—4/7/10)
What "evidence" shows it clearly that the clip was inside the rifle
at
the time of discovery liar?
> >NOW you appear to be saying there was NO clip in the Carcano when it
> >was found!
> You see? I *knew* you'd see things that aren't there...
YOU are saying there is NO evidence for the claim of there being a
clip inside the rifle at the tiime of discovery, YET YOU and Walt
have
argued with me that it was there. YOU are person who makes
assertions
with NO evidence supporting you!
> >Which is it?
> Yep... I knew you'd go nuts on this post. You simply don't have the intelligence
> to read and understand.
I can read your words and understand them (heck, a 1st grader could
do
that) and YOU are playing both sides of the fence again Ben. YOU
lied
when you argued the clip was inside the rifle when it was found and
this proves to us YOU know there is NO evidence to support such a
claim yet you made it anyway. NOW, we see you know there is none but
you said it anyway and claimed there was evidence.
Liar, aren't you?
> >YOU would even lie and say it was "inventoried" on 11/22/63 when it
> >was not?
> You can't provide any citation to support such a lie. Nor will you even try.
Ben Holmes
(Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
robcap...@netscape.com
NOW, respond to this!
(snip header and old stuff)
> >> (Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)
Ben Holmes
robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
>Why do you keep deleting this?
Because you're a troll...
(Watch the moron go nuts on this post!)