Re: OSWALD LEAVING BEHIND NOTES
David Von Pein
AT ANOTHER JFK FORUM, AN LNer WROTE:
>>> "The note he [Lee Harvey Oswald] left for Marina that morning [11/22/63], implying he was going to attempt a dangerous and momentous act." <<<
DVP SAID:
Just for the record, Mr. 'Snow'.....
The above comment about the "note" is not correct. Oswald left no note
on November 22, 1963.
You're probably thinking about LHO's detailed note of instructions for
Marina after he went to shoot Walker in April '63.
THE OTHER LNer SAID:
>>> "Thanks for the correction, DVP--quite right. I still think the note he left is interesting in what it says about Oswald's general state of mind around this time... And the fact that he tried to assassinate Walker shows that he wasn't at all squeamish about trying to take someone's life." <<<
THEN ANOTHER LNer SAID:
>>> "Didn't Oswald leave a note with the money saying "Buy some shoes for June"? A minor point, if a point at all. If DVP doesn't know, no one does!" <<<
THEN DVP SAID:
I don't believe so, roark.
But I do think there's always been a little bit of confusion and
ambiguity with respect to the conversation between Marina and Lee
after he awoke on the morning of Friday, November 22nd.
I've heard and read different accounts of the conversation that
supposedly occurred between the Oswalds early that morning....and some
sources have Lee and Marina not talking to each other at all during
the early-morning hours of 11/22 before LHO left for work, with Marina
apparently remaining asleep during this entire time.
One such source is the 1964 David Wolper movie "Four Days In
November", which is the best film ever made about the JFK
assassination, IMO, and includes very few errors of fact (at least I
have spotted very, very few factual errors in that 2-hour documentary
film; one of the very few mistakes is when narrator Richard Basehart
says that Lee Oswald was wearing a jacket when he entered his
roominghouse at about 1:00 PM on Nov. 22; but the record is pretty
clear that he left his blue jacket at the TSBD, and was not wearing
any jacket when he was seen by housekeeper Earlene Roberts that day).
But with respect to what occurred just after LHO woke up on the 22nd,
narrator Basehart specifically tells the movie audience that Lee left
for work "without awakening anyone" (after Lee fixed himself his usual
cup of instant coffee).
This leads us to think, via the movie's narration, that Lee never said
a word to Marina that morning (at least it always leaves me with that
impression whenever I watch the film, which is quite often). Basehart
doesn't mention Lee's leaving behind the $170 or his wedding ring
either.
But back to the specific "Did Lee Leave Behind A Note On Nov. 22?"
topic.....
There's the following Warren Commission testimony from Marina Oswald
herself:
MARINA OSWALD -- "One detail that I remember was that he had asked me
whether I had bought some shoes for myself, and I said no, that I
hadn't had any time. He asked me whether June needed anything and told
me to buy everything that I needed for myself and for June and for the
children. This was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that
first."
[Then, a little later in Marina's testimony, there is this exchange:]
J. LEE RANKIN -- "Then did he [LHO] say anything to you that morning
at all, or did he get up and go without speaking to you?"
MARINA OSWALD -- "He told me to take as much money as I needed and to
buy everything, and said goodbye, and that is all."
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm
So, per Marina's testimony above, it would appear as if Lee told
Marina to do certain things via spoken words, vs. writing them out in
written (note) form.
Vincent Bugliosi, in his book "Reclaiming History", also has the above
conversation taking place on the morning of 11/22 (with no mention of
Lee leaving behind any note at all).
Walt
> AT ANOTHER JFK FORUM, AN LNer WROTE:
>
> >>> "The note he [Lee Harvey Oswald] left for Marina that morning [11/22/63], implying he was going to attempt a dangerous and momentous act." <<<
>
> DVP SAID:
>
> Just for the record, Mr. 'Snow'.....
>
> The above comment about the "note" is not correct. Oswald left no note
> on November 22, 1963.
>
> You're probably thinking about LHO's detailed note of instructions for
> Marina after he went to shoot Walker in April '63.
>
> THE OTHER LNer SAID:
>
> >>> "Thanks for the correction, DVP--quite right. I still think the note he left is interesting in what it says about Oswald's general state of mind around this time... And the fact that he tried to assassinate Walker shows that he wasn't at all squeamish about trying to take someone's life." <<<
>
> THEN ANOTHER LNer SAID:
>
> >>> "Didn't Oswald leave a note with the money saying "Buy some shoes for June"? A minor point, if a point at all. If DVP doesn't know, no one does!" <<<
What this all indicates is that there are many ignorant people who
don't know the facts.... the fact that they would look to Von Pea
Brain for the answers is a good indication of their ignorance.
Von Pea Brain didn't know enough to tell the lurker.... Oswald made
that rematk about buying some shoes for his daughter June when he was
in the custody of the DPD on saturday November 23,1963.
Von Pea Brain the ignorant could also have told that lurker that Lee
Oswald didn't make that remark to Marina only....
He also told his Mother and his Brother..."Junie needs new
shoes"...
I've always thought that Lees message wasn't simply about his daughter
needing new shoes.... Because he said it to all of the members of his
family..... If he'd have said that to Marina only then I'd accept
that the remark was just a message for Marina to buy June a new pair
of shoes, but since he said it to Robert after warning Robert that
their conversation was being monitored and recorded, I believe that he
was attempting to tell Robert something.
The phrase " Baby needs new shoes" is a phrase often used by crap
shooters ..... So I can't help but think that Oswald was attempting to
tell Robert to look at his dice. Most knowledgable researchers will
remember that Oswald discussed micro dot technology with Dennis
Ofstein when he was employed at JCS. So Oswald knew that documents
could be reduced to a size no bigger than a period on a typewriter.
Which allowed a secret document to be concealed as a period at the end
of a sentence.... Or concealed as the dots on a pair of dice.
YoHarvey
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Walt "I never met a conspiracy I didn't like" is queen of the CT loons
on this NG roflmao......
David Von Pein
>>> "Von Pea Brain didn't know enough to tell the lurker....Oswald made that remark about buying some shoes for his daughter June when he was in the custody of the DPD on Saturday November 23, 1963." <<<
Yes, I know that very well.
So?
>>> "Von Pea Brain the ignorant could also have told that lurker that Lee Oswald didn't make that remark to Marina only....He also told his Mother and his Brother..."Junie needs new shoes"..." <<<
I'm not too sure you'll be able to find any reference to LHO making
the remark about JUNIE'S shoes to Marina. It would appear, from
Marina's testimony, that the "shoes" being referred to are shoes for
MARINA, not June.
But, apparently, Junie needed shoes too, because Lee said something to
his brother, Robert, about getting June shoes, and Robert usually
repeats that story when he does documentary interviews.
This brings up a side issue regarding Oswald's demeanor on Sat., Nov.
23rd ---
Isn't it kind of odd that Lee, who has been charged with two murders
that he says he did not commit, seems more concerned with his
daughter's shoes than he does with the murder charges that he was
facing at that moment?
Would a truly INNOCENT person (or an innocent "patsy") really have
been THAT cool and calm and collected in a situation like the one
facing Lee Oswald on 11/23/63?
Nobody can answer that last question with absolute certainty, of
course. But if it were me in jail, charged with the murder of the
President and a policeman (murders that I DIDN'T commit), I have a
feeling that I probably wouldn't be thinking about shoes at that
particular time.
But, in Lee Oswald's instance on Nov. 23rd, since there's absolutely
question whatsoever that he was guilty of the two killings he was
being charged with, then the "shoes for Junie" comment made by LHO
makes more sense. And that's because he KNOWS he's guilty....he KNOWS
that he's not being "framed" for two murders he didn't commit (how can
you "frame" a GUILTY man?)....and he undoubtedly knows (via the
popcorn trail of evidence he left behind for the police) that he will
likely be receiving the stiff punishment that is due him.
>>> "I've always thought that Lee's message wasn't simply about his daughter needing new shoes.... Because he said it to all of the members of his family. If he'd have said that to Marina only then I'd accept that the remark was just a message for Marina to buy June a new pair of shoes, but since he said it to Robert after warning Robert that their conversation was being monitored and recorded, I believe that he was attempting to tell Robert something. The phrase "Baby needs new shoes" is a phrase often used by crap shooters. So I can't help but think that Oswald was attempting to tell Robert to look at his dice. Most knowledgable researchers will remember that Oswald discussed micro dot technology with Dennis Ofstein when he was employed at JCS. So Oswald knew that documents could be reduced to a size no bigger than a period on a typewriter. Which allowed a secret document to be concealed as a period at the end of a sentence.... Or concealed as the dots on a pair of dice." <<<
Jesus H. Christ!
What a kook you are.
Walt
Von Pea Brain the ignorant asked:...... "(how can you "frame" a GUILTY
man?)"
Simple.... Just look at the OJ Simpson murder trial. He was
obviously guilty, but apparently the cops weren't confident that they
had a solid case against him so they tampered with the evidence.
Tampering with the evidence is framing a man, whether he's guilty or
not, he's still being framed.
A better question is:.... Is it necessary to frame a guilty man?? I
don't think so , and it certainly is NOT the way our justice system
works. On the other hand.... If you want to cover up the truth and
blame the crime on some hapless sucker that can't afford a good
lawyer, then it is necessary to manufacture evidence to make the patsy
look guilty, and that's exactly what the authorities did to Oswald.
If the evidence doesn't support the charge then the guys probably not
guilty..... And that's exactly the situation in the case of Lee
Oswald. Almost all of the so called evidence is questionable. The
cops most certainly DID NOT have the air tight case against Oswald
that they were crowing to reporters about as early as Friday
evening. Of course us gullible peasants didn't know that at the
time, we just assumed that the DPD was an honest law enforcement
agency and we had no reason to doubt them. But we now know that the
bastards were lying through there teeth.....They hadn't found Oswald's
finger prints on the gun as Henry Wade claimed, nor did any prints
prove to be Oswald's as Curry said he was sure they would be.
Walt
> >>> "Von Pea Brain didn't know enough to tell the lurker....Oswald made that remark about buying some shoes for his daughter June when he was in the custody of the DPD on Saturday November 23, 1963." <<<
>
> Yes, I know that very well.
>
> So?
>
> >>> "Von Pea Brain the ignorant could also have told that lurker that Lee Oswald didn't make that remark to Marina only....He also told his Mother and his Brother..."Junie needs new shoes"..." <<<
>
> I'm not too sure you'll be able to find any reference to LHO making
> the remark about JUNIE'S shoes to Marina. It would appear, from
> Marina's testimony, that the "shoes" being referred to are shoes for
> MARINA, not June.
>
> But, apparently, Junie needed shoes too, because Lee said something to
> his brother, Robert, about getting June shoes, and Robert usually
> repeats that story when he does documentary interviews.
>
> This brings up a side issue regarding Oswald's demeanor on Sat., Nov.
> 23rd ---
>
> Isn't it kind of odd that Lee, who has been charged with two murders
> that he says he did not commit, seems more concerned with his
> daughter's shoes than he does with the murder charges that he was
> facing at that moment?
Von Pea Brain the ignorant asked:....." Isn't it kind of odd that Lee,
who has been charged with two murders that he says he did not commit,
seems more concerned with his daughter's shoes than he does with the
murder charges that he was facing at that moment?"
It probably does seem odd to you because of your limited reasoning
ability...... However anybody who has an IQ above that of a slug can
clearly see that Oswald was an intelligent agent. A good secret
agent would place his mission above his life. Oswald was concerned
about keeping his cover, while at the same time trying to tell those
who loved him that the story being fed to the public was not the
truth. He wanted Robert to have some information that he's concealed
somewhere. He told each person in his family in separate
conversations that " Junie needs new shoes". You're right, that's not
normal behavior for a average citizen whose been swept up in a double
murder, but it is consistent with the demeanor of a secret agent, who
values his cover more than his life. ( in reality,an agent's cover is
his life) At any rate Oswald's statement was meant to alert his
listener to the fact that there was something about Junies shoes that
they needed to examine, or perhaps he had concealed information in a
pair of dice.
MSwanberg
where I can go to research this further?
I would like to take this opportunity, though, to add a little to what
you say. I don't think it's all that plausible to say that LHO was
valuing his mission above his life. In my opinion, he had to have
known that the mission had failed him and he was being set up ("I'm
just a patsy" and all that).
I think it's probably more likely that he was trying to tell Robert
something without letting anyone else in on it because if Robert had
gotten the hint, then perhaps it would have led him to something which
would exonerate LHO. But think about it, if he is surrounded by
people that are interrogating him without keeping notes, and are also
doing so without allowing him legal representation, then he must be
feeling surrounded by people that he simply cannot trust. A room of
Judases, as it were.
This is, to me, far better reason to be cryptic. I mean, why not just
tell Robert outright what he wants? The more plausible reason, to me,
is because he knows that anyone else who hears and knows what LHO is
talking about will a) beat Robert to the evidence, and b) probably use
any means necessary (deadly included) to beat Robert to the goal.
So, yeah, I agree with you in theory, but I just think Oz's
motivations for being cryptic were far more selfish than you are
ascribing. And perhaps the microdot or whatever was in Junie's shoes,
and not in a pair of dice.
But in the end, I think this is very interesting and would love to
research this more.
-Mike
aeffects
continually quotes himself...... <sigh>
Such a bore! I wonder if he provides himself *dvp* autographs?
Walt
Hello Mike, I wish I could be more helpful and refer you to the exact
places where you can read Oswald's words to his family, but alas I've
read so much in so many different books that I can't be 100% sure
where I read about Lee's conversation with his family in the Dallas
Jail on saturday.
I think it probably was in Robert Oswald's book...."Lee" but I'm
fairly sure that that isn't the only place I read about Lee telling
his family that "Junie needs a new pair of shoes" Incidentally I
asked Marina in person about "Junies Shoes" when I talked to in her
home way back in 1993. At that time I was working with the theory
that perhaps she and Lee had had a pair of Junies baby shoes
bronzed . When Lee was a little boy it was a fad for parents to have
their baby's shoes bronzed and preserved as heirlooms. I asked Marina
if she had kept any of Junies baby shoes, hoping that she would say
that she had. A lot of mothers do kept their baby's shoes, and I
hoped Marina had kept Junies shoes just like she had kept he aunts
demitasse..... But She said that she hadn't. I do believe that Lee
had hidden something in Junies Shoes or he could have been referring
to a pair of dice. If you want to pursue this I'll certainly help you
as much as I can... Just E mail me.
Walt
If you haven't read Robert Oswald's book..."Lee" ....I would highly
recommend it. Particularly interesting is Robert's story about being
chased by the FBI on the evening of 11 /22 /63. He was in a car with
Marina who was in "protective custody" of the Secret Service. The
Secret Service driver noticed that he was being followed by another
car, and accelarated his car to escape his persurers. A high speed
chase ensued, and the Secret service men pulled out their guns and
told their passengers to get down on the floor because there could be
gunfire. The two Secret service agents disclosed in their discussion
that they thought the persuers were FBI agents who were under orders
from Hoover to take Marina into their custody. I'm sure you won't
read about that chase anywhere else in the record...But according to
Robert it happened...... The Secret Service driver managed to out run
the FBI and they retained custody of Marina. One has to wonder why
Hoover was so desperate to get Marina into the custody of the
FBI??
Ben Holmes
Walt says...
>
>On 19 Dec, 17:59, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>> On 19 Dec, 14:08, MSwanberg <MSwanb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > where I can go to research this further?
>>
>> > I would like to take this opportunity, though, to add a little to what
>> > valuing his mission above his life. =A0In my opinion, he had to have
>> > known that the mission had failed him and he was being set up ("I'm
>> > just a patsy" and all that).
>>
>> > I think it's probably more likely that he was trying to tell Robert
>> > something without letting anyone else in on it because if Robert had
>> > gotten the hint, then perhaps it would have led him to something which
>> > people that are interrogating him without keeping notes, and are also
>> > doing so without allowing him legal representation, then he must be
>> > Judases, as it were.
>>
>> > This is, to me, far better reason to be cryptic. =A0I mean, why not jus=
>t
>> > tell Robert outright what he wants? =A0The more plausible reason, to me=
>,
>> > is because he knows that anyone else who hears and knows what LHO is
>> > talking about will a) beat Robert to the evidence, and b) probably use
>> > any means necessary (deadly included) to beat Robert to the goal.
>>
>> > So, yeah, I agree with you in theory, but I just think Oz's
>> > motivations for being cryptic were far more selfish than you are
>,
>> > and not in a pair of dice.
>>
>> > But in the end, I think this is very interesting and would love to
>> > research this more.
>>
>> > -Mike
>>
>> Hello Mike, I wish I could be more helpful and refer you to the exact
>> places where you can read Oswald's words to his family, but alas I've
>> read so much in so many different books that I can't be 100% sure
>> where I read about Lee's conversation with his family in the Dallas
>> Jail on saturday.
>>
>> fairly sure that that isn't the only place I read about Lee telling
>> asked Marina in person about "Junies Shoes" =A0when I talked to in her
>> home way back in 1993. =A0At that time I was working with the theory
>> that perhaps she and Lee had had a pair of Junies baby shoes
>> their baby's shoes bronzed and preserved as heirlooms. =A0I asked Marina
>> if she had kept any of Junies baby shoes, hoping that she would say
>> hoped Marina had kept Junies shoes just like she had kept he aunts
>> had hidden something in Junies Shoes or he could have been referring
>> as much as I can... Just E mail me.
>
>If you haven't read Robert Oswald's book..."Lee" ....I would highly
>recommend it. Particularly interesting is Robert's story about being
>chased by the FBI on the evening of 11 /22 /63. He was in a car with
>Marina who was in "protective custody" of the Secret Service. The
>Secret Service driver noticed that he was being followed by another
>car, and accelarated his car to escape his persurers. A high speed
>chase ensued, and the Secret service men pulled out their guns and
>told their passengers to get down on the floor because there could be
>gunfire. The two Secret service agents disclosed in their discussion
>that they thought the persuers were FBI agents who were under orders
>from Hoover to take Marina into their custody. I'm sure you won't
>read about that chase anywhere else in the record...But according to
>Robert it happened...... The Secret Service driver managed to out run
>the FBI and they retained custody of Marina. One has to wonder why
>Hoover was so desperate to get Marina into the custody of the
>FBI??
Or alternatively, what was the Secret Service doing acting as police officers?
The FBI was *precisely* more suited to investigation and police work - the
Secret Service was not. (Unless they thought Marina was passing fake money...)
It's quite clear from the record that the Secret Service and FBI had quite a
rivalry going on - a tad more intense IMO than can be explained by the desire of
Hoover to take control of the SS, or the SS's desire to remain separate.