Hooray! More "The Three Tramps Did It" Bullshit!
David Von Pein
www.amazon.com/forum/Fx2TVHW5I0UEY9A/TxG44HZ0UYBVHT/1/ref=cm_cd_ef_tft_tp/002-8330534-3632809?%5Fencoding=UTF8&cdAnchor=0393045250&asin=0393045250
>>> "More information at my website with photographs of the real killers: E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis and an expert marksman (the three "Tramps" arrested in a railroad car behind the Grassy Knoll where many witnesses swore they heard gunshots and ran to the picket fence behind Zapruder)." <<<
Oh, goodie! More BS about the "tramps", a subject debunked years ago.
The kooks never stop, do they?
Because to a conspiracy-loving kook.....
A New Sunrise = All Old, Tired, Worthless Evidence Becomes New And
Valid Once More.
Pathetic.
Vince Bugliosi himself summed things up very, very well when he said
this about the three tramps in his book:
"Perhaps the most famous of the "other" assassins are the "three
tramps". The fact that there never was any evidence at all of their
guilt is irrelevant to the conspiracy theorists. To the buffs, there
was one big piece of incriminating evidence against the tramps: THEY
WEREN'T LEE HARVEY OSWALD!
"And in the balmy and unhinged conspiracy universe, no evidence
of guilt is stronger against someone than that he isn't Lee Harvey
Oswald." -- VB; Page 929 of "Reclaiming History" (c.2007)
====================
For additional non-fiction re. the JFK case.....
YoHarvey
> www.amazon.com/forum/Fx2TVHW5I0UEY9A/TxG44HZ0UYBVHT/1/ref=cm_cd_ef_tf...
>
> >>> "More information at my website with photographs of the real killers: E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis and an expert marksman (the three "Tramps" arrested in a railroad car behind the Grassy Knoll where many witnesses swore they heard gunshots and ran to the picket fence behind Zapruder)." <<<
>
> Oh, goodie! More BS about the "tramps", a subject debunked years ago.
> The kooks never stop, do they?
>
> Because to a conspiracy-loving kook.....
>
> A New Sunrise = All Old, Tired, Worthless Evidence Becomes New And
> Valid Once More.
>
> Pathetic.
>
> Vince Bugliosi himself summed things up very, very well when he said
> this about the three tramps in his book:
>
> "Perhaps the most famous of the "other" assassins are the "three
> tramps". The fact that there never was any evidence at all of their
> guilt is irrelevant to the conspiracy theorists. To the buffs, there
> was one big piece of incriminating evidence against the tramps: THEY
> WEREN'T LEE HARVEY OSWALD!
>
> "And in the balmy and unhinged conspiracy universe, no evidence
> of guilt is stronger against someone than that he isn't Lee Harvey
> Oswald." -- VB; Page 929 of "Reclaiming History" (c.2007)
>
> ====================
>
> For additional non-fiction re. the JFK case.....
>
> www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
The tramps are guilty as hell!!!.....of being in the wrong place....at
the wrong time :-)
David Von Pein
And for not looking like Lee Oswald. Don't forget that ultra-important
fact.
robc...@netscape.com
> >>> "More information at my website with photographs of the real killers: E. Howard Hunt, Frank Sturgis and an expert marksman (the three "Tramps" arrested in a railroad car behind the Grassy Knoll where many witnesses swore they heard gunshots and ran to the picket fence behind Zapruder)."
> Oh, goodie! More BS about the "tramps", a subject debunked years ago.
> The kooks never stop, do they?
Who debunked it, the Bugman? It has not been debunked by anyone with
the ability to reason. There were numerous arrests on this day -
11/22/63 - including the famous 3 tramps, a second set of 3 tramps and
Hale Brading. There may be more, but these I have read to be
certain. I have read another person was let go because they spoke
Spanish and no one could understand them. Is this nuts? The DPD has
traslators and they let them go (probably Cuban). Yet with all these
arrests there is not one official arrest on record, meaning no reports
were completed and no information regarding these individuals is handy
for any reseacher. It is as if none of them was brought in at all.
Why?
> A New Sunrise = All Old, Tired, Worthless Evidence Becomes New And
> Valid Once More.
You summed up the official theory perfectly. You are catching on.
>
> Pathetic.
My word exactly.
>
> Vince Bugliosi himself summed things up very, very well when he said
> this about the three tramps in his book:
Speaking of kooks:
>
> "Perhaps the most famous of the "other" assassins are the "three
> tramps". The fact that there never was any evidence at all of their
> guilt is irrelevant to the conspiracy theorists. To the buffs, there
> was one big piece of incriminating evidence against the tramps: THEY
> WEREN'T LEE HARVEY OSWALD!
Yeah Bugman there usually isn't evidence when the police let people go
without paperwork. What an idiot. Some book. In 1600 plus pages he
couldn't spend some time on why people are arrested and then let go
with no reason why or paperwork done.
That's right, he wasn't after the truth just some PR for a has been.
Bye the bye, there usually is no "evidence" when the police let people
go without investigating them. How does he know they are innocent?
robc...@netscape.com
> The tramps are guilty as hell!!!.....of being in the wrong place....at
> the wrong time.
So what were they doing there at that exact time? You don't want to
believe they are guilty so why were they hopping on a train minutes
after the shooting? Give me a good reason. Give me some good reasons
why they had fresh haircuts, good shoes and decent clothes (i.e. no
holes) for supposed tramps. Come on, let's debate. Why did the tall
tramp have the same type of mud found behind the picket fence on his
shoes and pant cuffs? Why did two officers see a very tall man behind
the fence in the morning with a rifle? The tall tramp would match the
description they noted.
chuck schuyler
Rob:
The arrest records for "The Tramps" were found many, many years ago.
Only the kook-fringe of the conspiracy movement still feels there was
anything sinister about these men. Oh...the tramps have names. Abrams,
Gedney and Doyle.
Here is a nice summary from McAdams site:
David Von Pein
The tramps were detained, questioned, and released...because there was
no real reason to detain them any further.
That's what normally happens when suspects are taken in by the police
and then the police find no evidence of any wrong-doing on the part of
the person(s) brought in.
But, I guess Rob The Mega-Kook would have preferred that the DPD held
the bums/tramps forever until they managed to find some "evidence"
proving their involvement in the President's murder. Is that it,
Robby?
BTW, there was obviously SOME "paperwork done" on the three tramps,
because we KNOW WHO THE TRAMPS ARE (Gedney, Abrams, and Doyle, as
Chuck has already mentioned).
>>> "How does he {Bugliosi} know they {the 3 tramps} are innocent?" <<<
Because, unlike you, VB is not a kook.
tomnln
"chuck schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote in message
news:1194325447.0...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
McAdams website is NOT "Official".
The mug shots of ther tramps on 11/22/63 would "Officially" determine if the
tramps were indeed
Abrams, Gedney & Doyle OR, NOT.
chuck schuyler
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, they wouldn't, Tom. You'd claim there was something suspicious
about the mugshots.
Gil Jesus
anything but tramps. I was convinced, some years ago, by a television
magazine show called "A Current Affair", which tracked down Harold
Doyle and did an interview with him.
I believe that the three tramps were just that, three tramps.
Doyle was the tramp who has been referred to by some as "Frenchy" and
was "positively identified" as Texas murderer Charles Rogers, the
short, dark-haired man.
The man claiming to be Doyle told the story of November 22, 1963. How
he and two other tramps, who he had never met before that day, were
arrested by the Dallas Police. He professed the innocence of all three
in the shooting and described the fear they experienced in the ordeal.
To me, the interesting thing about the tramps is that they may well
have been witnesses to whatever happened behind the picket fence. What
they saw may well have been the reason why they fled across the
railroad yard.
Consider this, if the tramps had seen a Dallas cop ( or someone
wearing a Dallas Police uniform)
fire from behind the picket fence, would they not flee ? And would
they not flee in such a way as to avoid detection by police ? And
would a man in a 14 foot tower, seeing them try to get away without
detection, consider it any less suspicious than one who saw Oswald
"ducking into a shoe store"?
When Lee Bowers stopped the train so that the police could search the
railroad car the tramps climbed into, he may have been handing over
three key witnesses to the murderers of Kennedy.
Is it any wonder why, once in police custody, they were terrified ?
Three witnesses who were behind the picket fence and not one of them
was ever called before the Warren Commission.
tomnln
> No, they wouldn't, Tom. You'd claim there was something suspicious
> about the mugshots.
Hard to tell if chuck uses a crystal ball OR, a Ouiji Board.
Notice that chuck never addresses Official Records about the authorities
withholding,
Altering, Destroying Evidence, Lying.
http://whokilledjfk.net/PROVEN%20LIES.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/CASE%20DISMISSED.htm
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/mexcity.htm
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/Walker.htm
http://www.whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
Greg Jaynes
>
> > The tramps are guilty as hell!!!.....of being in the wrong place....at
> > the wrong time.
>
> So what were they doing there at that exact time? You don't want to
> believe they are guilty so why were they hopping on a train minutes
> after the shooting? Give me a good reason.
The tramps were arrested about one hour and forty five minutes after
the assassination.
>Give me some good reasons
> why they had fresh haircuts, good shoes and decent clothes (i.e. no
> holes) for supposed tramps. Come on, let's debate.
> Why did the tall
> tramp have the same type of mud found behind the picket fence on his
> shoes and pant cuffs?
Because they had just been marched thru the parking lot. The whole
place
was covered with gravel.
Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
robc...@netscape.com
> > So what were they doing there at that exact time? You don't want to
> > believe they are guilty so why were they hopping on a train minutes
> > after the shooting? Give me a good reason.
>
> The tramps were arrested about one hour and forty five minutes after
> the assassination.
Is this the elapsed time they reached the station or when they were
removed from the train? I read Lee Bowers called it in shortly after
the shooting not an hour and 45 minutes later. If this was the
response time no wonder no when was apprehended besides LHO. It is
funny as Hoover basically wrapped up the entire LHO case in not much
more time than this.
>
> >Give me some good reasons
> > why they had fresh haircuts, good shoes and decent clothes (i.e. no
> > holes) for supposed tramps. Come on, let's debate.
> > Why did the tall
> > tramp have the same type of mud found behind the picket fence on his
> > shoes and pant cuffs?
>
> Because they had just been marched thru the parking lot. The whole
> place
> was covered with gravel.
>
> Respectfully,
> Greg Jaynes
Gravel usually prevents the abundance of mud, thus the stones are
laid. You can get a little but not the amount if the gravel is not
there and he had a fair amount.
Greg Jaynes
> On Nov 7, 2:53 pm, Greg Jaynes <jay...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > > So what were they doing there at that exact time? You don't want to
> > > believe they are guilty so why were they hopping on a train minutes
> > > after the shooting? Give me a good reason.
>
> > The tramps were arrested about one hour and forty five minutes after
> > the assassination.
>
> Is this the elapsed time they reached the station or when they were
> removed from the train? I read Lee Bowers called it in shortly after
> the shooting not an hour and 45 minutes later. If this was the
> response time no wonder no when was apprehended besides LHO. It is
> funny as Hoover basically wrapped up the entire LHO case in not much
> more time than this.
You know the pictures where they are being marched past the TSBD?
Thats the 1:45 point. It's approximate but it's within about 5
minutes.
I did a shadow test on the corner of the TSBD Nov 22 1997 and matched
the shadow with the pictures. Apparently this timing had already
been established before I did this though. So it just served as an
additional confirmation of it. I put the pictures on my website and
wrote it up back when I was doing a weekly website about the
asassination.
>
> > >Give me some good reasons
> > > why they had fresh haircuts, good shoes and decent clothes (i.e. no
> > > holes) for supposed tramps. Come on, let's debate.
> > > Why did the tall
> > > tramp have the same type of mud found behind the picket fence on his
> > > shoes and pant cuffs?
>
> > Because they had just been marched thru the parking lot. The whole
> > place
> > was covered with gravel.
> Gravel usually prevents the abundance of mud, thus the stones are
> laid. You can get a little but not the amount if the gravel is not
> there and he had a fair amount.
You may be right. I was just answering the part about why the tall
tramp would have had the same type of mud as any found by the fence.
I have walked on the gravel before it was paved over. I didn't take
any notes about it at the time cause it didn't occur to me that this
would come up. But it seems like you could have gotten muddy
if it had been wet even though it was gravel. The same gravel in
the parking lot was all along the back of the fence.
Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
curtjester1
Read a good book, Coup D'etat by Weberman and Canfield. Six Tramps, 2
different arrest/detainment times with the arrest records with all the
specifics. One set was released right away, the other set in four
days. The arrest times were not very close together, either. I think
there were something like eighteen arrest/detainments that day with
direct suspicios behavior related to the assassination.
CJ
robc...@netscape.com
> You know the pictures where they are being marched past the TSBD?
> Thats the 1:45 point. It's approximate but it's within about 5
> minutes.
> I did a shadow test on the corner of the TSBD Nov 22 1997 and matched
> the shadow with the pictures. Apparently this timing had already
> been established before I did this though. So it just served as an
> additional confirmation of it. I put the pictures on my website and
> wrote it up back when I was doing a weekly website about the
> asassination.
Greg, what do you think of AJ Weberman and Michael Canfield's work on
this topic? Do you think it was Holt, Doyle and forget the other
one's name? I take it you don't think it is Hunt, Stugis, Frenchy or
Harrleson, right? I'm not 100% sold on this one either way so I am
very open to hearing your opinion on this topic.
> > > Because they had just been marched thru the parking lot. The whole
> > > place
> > > was covered with gravel.
> > Gravel usually prevents the abundance of mud, thus the stones are
> > laid. You can get a little but not the amount if the gravel is not
> > there and he had a fair amount.
>
> You may be right. I was just answering the part about why the tall
> tramp would have had the same type of mud as any found by the fence.
> I have walked on the gravel before it was paved over. I didn't take
> any notes about it at the time cause it didn't occur to me that this
> would come up. But it seems like you could have gotten muddy
> if it had been wet even though it was gravel. The same gravel in
> the parking lot was all along the back of the fence.
We also have Jack Lawrence who worked at the car dealership and
according to some of his coworkers he came back muddy too after
lunch. Have you read anything about him? I don't hear him mentioned
as much as Hunt, but I've read about him from 5 different sources over
the years.
Thanks!
Martin Shackelford
the train a short distance south of Dealey Plaza. They were heading TOWARD
the Plaza, not away from it.
Martin
<robc...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:1194467609.3...@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"Martin Shackelford" <msh...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:xUxYi.63737$Um6....@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...
Greg Jaynes
wrote:
> They got on the train three blocks south of Dealey Plaza, and were taken off
> the train a short distance south of Dealey Plaza. They were heading TOWARD
> the Plaza, not away from it.
>
> Martin
Hello Martin, I hope you have been doing well since
the last time we corresponded. I have always respected
your knowledge and fairness.
Ok, with all that said. I don't think you are right about this.
I once talked to Roy Vaughan about it. He was one of the
officers who had to run from the parking lot behind the knoll
down to Union Station where the train stopped. He said he
was winded when he climbed up onto an open topped car and
the three of them were in the bottom of it. He and the others
marched them back to the parking lot.
Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
Greg Jaynes
> On Nov 7, 3:51 pm,GregJaynes<jay...@mail.com> wrote:
>
> > You know the pictures where they are being marched past the TSBD?
> > Thats the 1:45 point. It's approximate but it's within about 5
> > minutes.
> > I did a shadow test on the corner of the TSBD Nov 22 1997 and matched
> > the shadow with the pictures. Apparently this timing had already
> > been established before I did this though. So it just served as an
> > additional confirmation of it. I put the pictures on my website and
> > wrote it up back when I was doing a weekly website about the
> > asassination.
>
> Greg, what do you think of AJ Weberman and Michael Canfield's work on
> this topic? Do you think it was Holt, Doyle and forget the other
> one's name? I take it you don't think it is Hunt, Stugis, Frenchy or
> Harrleson, right? I'm not 100% sold on this one either way so I am
> very open to hearing your opinion on this topic.
You can probably get a more informed opinion of them from
someone besides me. I really never did too much digging on them.
I just read what others wrote about them other than the project
I did about the time of day that they were arrested.
Generally, though I think they are Gus Abrams, Harold Doyle and
John Gedney (sp?). Just don't make me debate it at this point. Ha!
You would be surprised how fast you lose track of the details
when you quit studying this stuff.
I think the LaFontaines pretty much solved this mystery when they
discovered their arrest records.
> > > > Because they had just been marched thru the parking lot. The whole
> > > > place
> > > > was covered with gravel.
> > > Gravel usually prevents the abundance of mud, thus the stones are
> > > laid. You can get a little but not the amount if the gravel is not
> > > there and he had a fair amount.
>
> > You may be right. I was just answering the part about why the tall
> > tramp would have had the same type of mud as any found by the fence.
> > I have walked on the gravel before it was paved over. I didn't take
> > any notes about it at the time cause it didn't occur to me that this
> > would come up. But it seems like you could have gotten muddy
> > if it had been wet even though it was gravel. The same gravel in
> > the parking lot was all along the back of the fence.
>
> We also have Jack Lawrence who worked at the car dealership and
> according to some of his coworkers he came back muddy too after
> lunch. Have you read anything about him? I don't hear him mentioned
> as much as Hunt, but I've read about him from 5 different sources over
> the years.
Sorry, not much help on this one either. I think Martin has argued
that
he was one of the guys on the steps in Moorman, Betzner and Willis #5.
Since Martin is in this thread, maybe he could comment.
Respectfully,
Greg Jaynes
robc...@netscape.com
> You can probably get a more informed opinion of them from
> someone besides me. I really never did too much digging on them.
> I just read what others wrote about them other than the project
> I did about the time of day that they were arrested.
>
> Generally, though I think they are Gus Abrams, Harold Doyle and
> John Gedney (sp?). Just don't make me debate it at this point. Ha!
> You would be surprised how fast you lose track of the details
> when you quit studying this stuff.
>
> I think the LaFontaines pretty much solved this mystery when they
> discovered their arrest records.
>
No, that's fair. I think they are an interesting topic, but not
really pivotal to the story. I think trying to figure out who shot
from where is not as important as who planned and covered this up in
my opinion. I had heard they had two sets of tramps, the group you
mention above and then the famous lineup with the big names. I guess
like alot of things in this case we will never know for sure.
> > We also have Jack Lawrence who worked at the car dealership and
> > according to some of his coworkers he came back muddy too after
> > lunch. Have you read anything about him? I don't hear him mentioned
> > as much as Hunt, but I've read about him from 5 different sources over
> > the years.
>
> Sorry, not much help on this one either. I think Martin has argued
> that
> he was one of the guys on the steps in Moorman, Betzner and Willis #5.
> Since Martin is in this thread, maybe he could comment.
>
> Respectfully,
> Greg Jaynes
Thanks! Martin what do you think about Jack Lawrence?