some of Ms. Baker's account
Atlasrecrd
As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
I will, and you can make your own judgements.
SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
at this point.
First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
recently found evidence of in the archives.
4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
just skyrocketed."
Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
working for Reily.
Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll remember was
connected with the government in helping
"with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
cancer. And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix. Miss
Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and
was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
induced it in mice.
She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities. Oswald
was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
for awhile.
dli...@my-deja.com
"3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
recently found evidence of in the archives."
DSL
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
art guerrilla
dave um, didn't rave-
>Please do supply archival references for this claim:
wow, that was a pretty mild response for
such huge chunks of tantalizing info...
...don't pout, dave, its not flattering...
hee hee hee
ann vote-nader-or-make-a-big-lip archy
eof
Magic Bullet
I have some questions, though I'll understand if you don't wish to answer
them at this stage.
Firstly, clarification. Is the reference to DF's girlfriends and JM's
boyfriends accurrate - or was it meant to be the other way around?
Why did LHO need to actually work at Reily's in order to be a courier for
the material described? Would it not have been wiser to use someone
unconnected with that company?
How did he expect to smuggle the material into Cuba?
How did he expect to get to Cuba in the first place, given that most agree
he did not have enough funds with him?
Is the inference to be drawn that the indivual waving a gun around in the
embassy was in fact LHO?
And the same for the embassy phone calls?
greg
Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com...
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
> obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
> Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
> I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
> SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
> that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
> no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
> at this point.
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
> 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
> writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
>
> 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
> Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
> been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
> of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
>
> 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
> that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
> recently found evidence of in the archives.
>
Altasrecrd
>Firstly, clarification. Is the reference to DF's >girlfriends and JM's
boyfriends accurrate -
>or was it meant to be the other way around?
No, it's accurate. Everyone thinks Ferrie was a strict homosexual. Apparently
he wasn't. And that
is something I had only heard from her until I dug it up in the archives.
>Why did LHO need to actually work at Reily's in >order to be a courier for the
material described? >Would it not have been wiser to use someone
>unconnected with that company?
Oswald only worked for Reily till July 19th, 1963.
He had no job again until he was hired on at the
Depository in mid-October.
It was after he left Reily that his most bizarre actions took place; the ones
that seemed to deliberately portray him as a commie.
>How did he expect to smuggle the material
>into Cuba?
I have no idea. I do know that along with his suitcase he took a small blue
bag that he kept
with himself at all times, and refused to let it
be stowed by the bus driver.
>Is the inference to be drawn that the indivual >waving a gun around in the
>embassy was in fact LHO?
>And the same for the embassy phone calls?
I'm afraid I can only offer an opinion here. There
is no doubt Oz was in Mexico, but to me, also no doubt that there was also some
impersonating
occuring also. Sorry that sounds confusing, but
it seems that this whole thing *is* confusing.
Magic Bullet
greg
Altasrecrd <altas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001020215015...@ng-ck1.aol.com...
=keith=
elsewhere but can not remember where.
=keith=
Jerry
This is exactly as Lifton described: she takes some known names and
facts and elaborates and weaves them into her stories/lies.
All this stuff is strictly Buff Logic 101, starting with Oswald as a
secret agent in the Soviet Union.
This is a smart woman and well able to pick this stuff up from the
common run of conspiracy novels.
Jerry
In article <20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com>,
JLeyden900
>From: atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd)
>Date: Fri, Oct 20, 2000 15:54 EDT
>Message-id: <20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com>
>
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
>obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
>Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
>I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
>
>
This version of her hiring at Reily conflicts with the version in Salon mag.
The Salon writer said Judyth wrote her a "long, Gothic letter" in which she
said Oswald got her the job at Reily and she was fired after Oswald was
arrested for his hands-off Cuba activities because she had been seen with him.
As for the rest of her story, it hardly merits comment.
JGL
dli...@my-deja.com
What follows is a line by line reproduction of Judyth Baker零 story, as
posted by Matt Allison aka Atlas Record) with DSL commentary added in square
brackets:
Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
Date: 10/20/2000
Author: Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com>
As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to obtain this story for
himself and McAdams from poor Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony
up any details, I will, and you can make your own judgements.
[OK, let零 do that.]
Since the story is already being debated here, it is only fair that everyone
get a chance at forming an opinion. After all, no one person has the right to
keep something like this secret at this point.
[True. . . this could be important, if it were valid. A major
re-interpretation of the JFK assassination, from the pov of the lady who was
secretly carrying on an affair with Oswald.]
First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them.
[So she worked there, right? So what?]
She has writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
[What "writings"? You mean stuff that is already at the Archives and in the
26 volumes? Or writings, in Oswald零 hand, that have never seen the light of
day before? If she has that, she could surely sell them on e-bay, and make a
pretty penny. I am sure that a single letter from Oswald to anyone might
fetch thousands of dollars.]
2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and Jack Martin's
boyfriends that to my knowledge have never been printed anywhere.
[To *your* knowledge. Correct. She probably got it from her study of the
record. She零 like an idiot-savant when it comes to that. She studies the
records, manufactures her embroidered version or insertion, feeds back, and
then the listener, e.g. yourself, goes out and "finds" the "corroboration."]
I only recently found obscure mention of it when digging thru stuff at the
archives.
[Exactly. See what I mean? That零 exactly what this lady does. You probably
found what is in fact her documentary "inspiration" but, because of the way
the sequence unfolded in your own frame of reference, have experienced it as
"corroboration". This is the essence of her whole m.o. (And I雋 curious:
did she give you hints as to where to "dig"?)]
3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
[IMHO,based on having known Thornley quite well---total nonsense. Kerry
Thornley never met Marina.]
that have never been printed anywhere.
[that零 right . . .the same m.o. as I was talking about just above; And now,
here it comes, folks. . . ]
and that I just recently found evidence of in the archives.
[Again: Bingo. If this is true, and if Kerry being with Marina is in some
Garrison-generated documentary item, almost certainly she found it somewhere
on the net, or was told of it, by someone familiar with that part of the
case; i.e., the Garrison subset of "evidence." Much of that is now at the
archives, largely as a result of the ARRB]
[Next comes an anonymous questioner, and a document which is not identified.
. . but presumably it refers to some private event where someone
---sympbolized by ("") questioned Judyth:]
4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told ( ) that
Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
[Time out! A serious question𠸐ne of format.]
[The Queen of Spades is an opera, not a book. So what do you mean that LHO
"read to her" from the Queen of Spades. Are you saying that Oswald had the
libretto𤷫.e. a written copy of the text of this opera?
CONTINUING. . .
( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then ( ) said,
"What color was it?"
[Was what? A libretto? Sheet music for this opera? Or what? Just what is
being referred to here?? FYI: There is no Queen of Spades libretto in the 26
volumes. Perhaps its at the Archives, as part of the FBI evidence. Is such
a document there? And did someone obtain a copy and show it to Judyth? Or
did she obtain a libretto from a store? I know I obtained one, many years
ago.]
CONTINUING:
Judyth said, "Gray."
[i.e. she has now identified the color of a document which, as far as the
official record is concerned, does not exist; but let零 go on. . . ]
CONTINUING. . .
( )'s jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is nowhere to
be found. "
[It sure isn靖. What "information"? Is someone claiming that Oswald had the
libretto for the Queen of Spades?? And that Judyth has Oswald零 copy of the
libretto? And what is this about Ruth Paine or Marina knowing about any such
libretto in LHO零 possession. I never heard that one before. And it certainly
is not in the existing record, by which I mean the 26 volumes and the CD零
that I am aware of. So what are we to make of what comes next.]
CONTINUING:
The only people who know that are me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only
five people could have known about it."
[Known what? What is "it"?? That Oswald is supposed to have had a libretto?
And if Ruth Paine and Marina are two of the people, who are the other three?
Even the arithmetic doesn靖 make sense here. "me, Ruth Paine, and Marina. .
" adds up to 3. So where does "5" come from??]
BUT NOW, CONTINUING, WITH THE FINALE:
"I know you were there with Lee Oswald. I know you
were intimate with him, and your credibility has just skyrocketed."
[Oh, brother: First of all. . . I don靖 understand how one navigates from
knowing about the Queen of Spades, via a libretto or sheet music or anything
else about that opera, to being intimate with Oswald. The fact that a female
has a libretto of an opera that is loved by a male, does not mean she is
having sex with that male. Otherwise, men would start carrying librettos
along with flowers. So what kind of "logic" is this? ]
[ Second: there is the question of what libretto is being talked about here,
and who, today, has physical possession of such an item (because there sure
is no mention of any such item in the official evidence). But more
generally. . . as to knowledge about Queen of Spades in general. . this is
still another example of Judyth, studying the record. She told me all about
how she read McMillan and Mailer, and, of course, Oswald零 listening to Queen
of Spades is very heavily emphasized and discussed in detail in McMillan.]
[Well, enough of that subject. . .CONTINUING .. . ]
Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert Baker, Judyth was
Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy, and was doing cancer research in
high school that was so outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were
sending her free chemicals to experiment with.
[OK. . . let零 accept that, for the sake of argument. Though I do not
understand why she left science, if she was such a prodigy; and went to
literature where, at this late date, she still doesn靖 have her PhD]
She moved right after high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and
began working for Reily. Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to
work for a coffee company, you ask? Good question.
[Yes, Atlas, a very good one. This is not like Albert Einstein working at
the Swiss patent office, where he invented relativity. So what is the
answer?]
Judy worked as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
[First of all, what was Monaghan零 function at Reilly, and what, if anything,
does it have to do with his being a former FBI agent? But OK. . . so where
does that lead?]
He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner was familiar
with this young prodigy's work.
[Wonderful. But where does that lead?]
And Ochsner you'll remember was connected with the government in helping
"with the medical side of subversive activities".
[OK. . . but how is that connected with Judyth, much less Lee?]
In 1963 this meant trying to kill Castro.
[Oh really? Well, how did the plot work?]
Ochsner was part of a group that was trying to figure out a way to kill
Castro with lung cancer.
[Is there any evidence for this? Like, in the Church Comm. Hearings? That
lung cancer was used as a bio weapon??]
And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix.
[Please do explain.]
Miss Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer cells (which
are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and was brought to N.O.
[Wait a minute. You雹e saying that the US Government, and specifically, the
covert apparatus of the CIA, was going to rely on a 15-16 yr old
still-in-high school, to do work on this assassination-by-cancer project?]
Ms. Vary . . . was brought to New Orleans not to shuffle papers but for a
project that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she induced
it in mice.
[Let me see if I have this straight: Judyth induced cancer in mice (so you
say). The U.S. was trying to kill Castro with lung cancer, and hired this 16
year old science-prodigy girl to help them out---to take her techniques which
worked on a mouse, and fabricate a bio-weapon to be used against Castro??]
[ In other words, even assuming such a project existed, the CIA didn靖 use
the labs in Washington or at NIH or at some major medical facility. They
used HER??? And put her at a coffee company, for purposes of concealment?]
[Why? And assuming she had some special scientific gift, why wouldn靖 she be
put in a laboratory somewhere?? Why at a coffee company??]
[Do you realize how improbable𡃉o, how ridiculous𡑕his sounds? Is this the
essence of the theory that Martin Shackelford is promoting? ]
CONTINUING (no logical segue here. . . I雋 just quoting your own account):
She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
[well, ok; but that doesn靖 prove anything. And of what relevance is it?]
I've seen where they both lived.
[Nor does that prove anything. It just tells us you雹e a history buff, of
sorts.]
They were both hired on the same day, . . .
[So what? This just supports my thesis that Judyth is always trying to
inject herself into things, utilizing the existing data upon which to build
her edifice.]
and according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing infested
Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
[Just a minute: if Reilly was so "right wing" infested. . . and all this was
part of a cover for an intelligence mission, why was he fired just six weeks
later for not paying attention on the job, and properly oiling the
machinery??
[Don靖 you think someone high up at Reilly, which was so right-wing infested,
could have put a hand on the shoulder of some supervisor and said, "See that
kid? The one whose not oiling the machinery properly? Well, let him be.
Don靖 bother him. This job零 just a cover for our plot to kill Castro. . .
you know, the cancer-manufacturing unit down on the first floor, where we
manufacture Brazillian Roast.]
[But, says the supervisor, what about the machinery? Whose going to oil it?
Replies the manager: "If there零 a problem, call me. *I雍l* oil the
machinery. But leave the kid alone. We need him as a courier to carry the
cancer agents." (Really, this would make a great movie!)
[Again, I ask: if Judyth was a science prodigy, why does she need the "cover"
of a coffee company? When the manager was walking around, showing off his
facilities, did he say things like, "Now, here零 the room where we do our new
Brazilian roast. . no, hold it! You can靖 go in there! We雹e doing lung
cancer work in there!]
CONTINUING:
Oswald was run by one of the intelligence agencies,
[her evidence for that?]
she can only speculate which.
[I雍l say. So can a lot of people.]
After his bogus defection from Russia
[Sorry Matt, wrong verb. "After his bogus defection TO Russia., . " He
defects "from" the U.S. "to" Russia. Then he returns "from" Russia "to" the
U.S. Sorry for being such a pedant, but there零 a relationship between use
of language and precision of thought; and this kind of mistake does make one
wonder.]
CONTINUING:
"After his bogus defection from Russia, he was keeping his commie bona-fides
intact in order that he could be used in Cuba."
[Well, ok; that零 a nice general but fairly vague idea. But what do you mean
by "he was keeping his commie bona-fides "intact"?]
This is what all his hokey-pokey was about that summer.
[Hold on, please. What is the antecedent for "this"? Please explain: What is
"this"? What I think you雹e trying to say is that he continues pretending to
be a Red, right?]
[Oh oh; here it comes. . . !]
His trip to Mexico City was to get into Cuba and deliver the biological
weapon described above.
[Disguised as coffee, perhaps? Perhaps: Che Guevara Brazillian Brand? Did
he perhaps also carry with him some Half-and-Half to make it more tasty?]
When he couldn't get in right away,. . . .
[We雹e talking about Mexico City now, right? And the scene at the Embassy,
where Oswald stormed out? ]
he freaked, as the materials had a short shelf life.
[In other words, Oswald was carrying cancer agents on that hot old Mexican
bus?? And without the standard refrigeration units they use when carrying
biological samples? You鉅 think someone would have provided some sort of
chillbox. And then when he got to the Commercio Hotel, he just kept them in
the room? What kind of containers were they in, by the way? Tupperware? Or
what?]
He had been told that if Castro couldn't be killed, then Kennedy would end up
having to be.
[This is another one of those logic-defying statements. Please explain the
logic. E.g., updated to the present, would it be something like, "If we
can靖 kill Arafat, then we雍l have to kill Barak??" I don靖 get it, but
perhaps Judyth does.]
There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on for awhile.
[I雋 chewing. I雋 chewing. But this doesn靖 taste very good. At all!]
Please. . . punch that "reset button" and do give us some more!
DSL
mshack
I wonder how many other opinions you would feel comfortable basing
on a gossip column and a researcher who argues that JFK's body and the
Zapruder film were both forgeries.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it." ---George Bernard Shaw
gene
> RE: "Some of Ms. Baker's account," by Matt Allison, (aka Atlas Record)
>
>
>
> posted by Matt Allison aka Atlas Record) with DSL commentary added in square
> brackets:
>
>
>
> Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
>
> Date: 10/20/2000
>
> Author: Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com>
>
>
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to obtain this story for
> himself and McAdams from poor Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony
> up any details, I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Since the story is already being debated here, it is only fair that everyone
> get a chance at forming an opinion. After all, no one person has the right to
> keep something like this secret at this point.
>
>
>
> [True. . . this could be important, if it were valid. A major
> re-interpretation of the JFK assassination, from the pov of the lady who was
> secretly carrying on an affair with Oswald.]
>
>
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
>
>
> 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them.
>
>
>
> [So she worked there, right? So what?]
>
>
>
> She has writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
>
>
>
> [What "writings"? You mean stuff that is already at the Archives and in the
> day before? If she has that, she could surely sell them on e-bay, and make a
> pretty penny. I am sure that a single letter from Oswald to anyone might
> fetch thousands of dollars.]
>
>
>
> 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and Jack Martin's
> boyfriends that to my knowledge have never been printed anywhere.
>
>
>
> [To *your* knowledge. Correct. She probably got it from her study of the
> records, manufactures her embroidered version or insertion, feeds back, and
> then the listener, e.g. yourself, goes out and "finds" the "corroboration."]
>
>
>
> I only recently found obscure mention of it when digging thru stuff at the
> archives.
>
>
>
> found what is in fact her documentary "inspiration" but, because of the way
> the sequence unfolded in your own frame of reference, have experienced it as
> did she give you hints as to where to "dig"?)]
>
>
>
> 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>
>
>
> [IMHO,based on having known Thornley quite well---total nonsense. Kerry
> Thornley never met Marina.]
>
>
>
> that have never been printed anywhere.
>
>
>
> here it comes, folks. . . ]
>
>
>
> and that I just recently found evidence of in the archives.
>
>
>
> [Again: Bingo. If this is true, and if Kerry being with Marina is in some
> Garrison-generated documentary item, almost certainly she found it somewhere
> on the net, or was told of it, by someone familiar with that part of the
> case; i.e., the Garrison subset of "evidence." Much of that is now at the
> archives, largely as a result of the ARRB]
>
>
>
> [Next comes an anonymous questioner, and a document which is not identified.
> . . but presumably it refers to some private event where someone
> ---sympbolized by ("") questioned Judyth:]
>
>
>
> 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told ( ) that
>
> Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [The Queen of Spades is an opera, not a book. So what do you mean that LHO
> "read to her" from the Queen of Spades. Are you saying that Oswald had the
>
Guess again.
From Amazon.com:
The Queen of Spades and Other Stories : A New Translation
by Aleksandr Sergeevich Pushkin, Alexander Pushkin, Alan Myers
(Translator)
List Price: $10.95
Our Price: $9.85
You Save: $1.10 (10%)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192839543/o/qid=972112714/sr=8-
1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/002-6071104-5723256
gene
> CONTINUING. . .
>
> ( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
>
> "Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then ( ) said,
>
> "What color was it?"
>
>
>
> [Was what? A libretto? Sheet music for this opera? Or what? Just what is
> being referred to here?? FYI: There is no Queen of Spades libretto in the 26
> volumes. Perhaps its at the Archives, as part of the FBI evidence. Is such
> a document there? And did someone obtain a copy and show it to Judyth? Or
> did she obtain a libretto from a store? I know I obtained one, many years
> ago.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> Judyth said, "Gray."
>
>
>
> [i.e. she has now identified the color of a document which, as far as the
> official record is concerned, does not exist; but letąs go on. . . ]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING. . .
>
>
>
> ( )'s jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is nowhere to
> be found. "
>
>
>
> [It sure isnąt. What "information"? Is someone claiming that Oswald had the
> libretto for the Queen of Spades?? And that Judyth has Oswaldąs copy of the
> libretto? And what is this about Ruth Paine or Marina knowing about any such
> libretto in LHOąs possession. I never heard that one before. And it certainly
> is not in the existing record, by which I mean the 26 volumes and the CDąs
> that I am aware of. So what are we to make of what comes next.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> The only people who know that are me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only
> five people could have known about it."
>
>
>
> [Known what? What is "it"?? That Oswald is supposed to have had a libretto?
> And if Ruth Paine and Marina are two of the people, who are the other three?
> Even the arithmetic doesnąt make sense here. "me, Ruth Paine, and Marina. .
> " adds up to 3. So where does "5" come from??]
>
>
>
> BUT NOW, CONTINUING, WITH THE FINALE:
>
>
>
> "I know you were there with Lee Oswald. I know you
>
> were intimate with him, and your credibility has just skyrocketed."
>
>
>
> [Oh, brother: First of all. . . I donąt understand how one navigates from
> knowing about the Queen of Spades, via a libretto or sheet music or anything
> else about that opera, to being intimate with Oswald. The fact that a female
> has a libretto of an opera that is loved by a male, does not mean she is
> having sex with that male. Otherwise, men would start carrying librettos
> along with flowers. So what kind of "logic" is this? ]
>
>
>
> [ Second: there is the question of what libretto is being talked about here,
> and who, today, has physical possession of such an item (because there sure
> is no mention of any such item in the official evidence). But more
> generally. . . as to knowledge about Queen of Spades in general. . this is
> still another example of Judyth, studying the record. She told me all about
> how she read McMillan and Mailer, and, of course, Oswaldąs listening to Queen
> of Spades is very heavily emphasized and discussed in detail in McMillan.]
>
>
>
> [Well, enough of that subject. . .CONTINUING .. . ]
>
>
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert Baker, Judyth was
> Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy, and was doing cancer research in
> high school that was so outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were
> sending her free chemicals to experiment with.
>
>
>
> [OK. . . letąs accept that, for the sake of argument. Though I do not
> understand why she left science, if she was such a prodigy; and went to
> literature where, at this late date, she still doesnąt have her PhD]
>
>
>
> She moved right after high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and
> began working for Reily. Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to
> work for a coffee company, you ask? Good question.
>
>
>
> [Yes, Atlas, a very good one. This is not like Albert Einstein working at
> the Swiss patent office, where he invented relativity. So what is the
> answer?]
>
>
>
> Judy worked as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
>
> Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
>
>
>
> [First of all, what was Monaghanąs function at Reilly, and what, if anything,
> does it have to do with his being a former FBI agent? But OK. . . so where
> does that lead?]
>
>
>
> He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner was familiar
> with this young prodigy's work.
>
>
>
> [Wonderful. But where does that lead?]
>
>
>
> And Ochsner you'll remember was connected with the government in helping
> "with the medical side of subversive activities".
>
>
>
> [OK. . . but how is that connected with Judyth, much less Lee?]
>
>
>
> In 1963 this meant trying to kill Castro.
>
>
>
> [Oh really? Well, how did the plot work?]
>
>
>
> Ochsner was part of a group that was trying to figure out a way to kill
> Castro with lung cancer.
>
>
>
> [Is there any evidence for this? Like, in the Church Comm. Hearings? That
> lung cancer was used as a bio weapon??]
>
>
>
> And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix.
>
>
>
> [Please do explain.]
>
>
>
> Miss Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer cells (which
> are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and was brought to N.O.
>
>
>
> [Wait a minute. Youąre saying that the US Government, and specifically, the
> covert apparatus of the CIA, was going to rely on a 15-16 yr old
> still-in-high school, to do work on this assassination-by-cancer project?]
>
>
>
> Ms. Vary . . . was brought to New Orleans not to shuffle papers but for a
> project that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she induced
> it in mice.
>
>
>
> [Let me see if I have this straight: Judyth induced cancer in mice (so you
> say). The U.S. was trying to kill Castro with lung cancer, and hired this 16
> year old science-prodigy girl to help them out---to take her techniques which
> worked on a mouse, and fabricate a bio-weapon to be used against Castro??]
>
>
>
> [ In other words, even assuming such a project existed, the CIA didnąt use
> the labs in Washington or at NIH or at some major medical facility. They
> used HER??? And put her at a coffee company, for purposes of concealment?]
>
>
>
> [Why? And assuming she had some special scientific gift, why wouldnąt she be
> put in a laboratory somewhere?? Why at a coffee company??]
>
>
>
> [Do you realize how improbable‹no, how ridiculous‹this sounds? Is this the
> essence of the theory that Martin Shackelford is promoting? ]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING (no logical segue here. . . Iąm just quoting your own account):
>
>
>
> She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
>
>
>
> [well, ok; but that doesnąt prove anything. And of what relevance is it?]
>
>
>
> I've seen where they both lived.
>
>
>
> [Nor does that prove anything. It just tells us youąre a history buff, of
> sorts.]
>
>
>
> They were both hired on the same day, . . .
>
>
>
> [So what? This just supports my thesis that Judyth is always trying to
> inject herself into things, utilizing the existing data upon which to build
> her edifice.]
>
>
>
> and according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing infested
> Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
>
>
>
> [Just a minute: if Reilly was so "right wing" infested. . . and all this was
> part of a cover for an intelligence mission, why was he fired just six weeks
> later for not paying attention on the job, and properly oiling the
> machinery??
>
>
>
> [Donąt you think someone high up at Reilly, which was so right-wing infested,
> could have put a hand on the shoulder of some supervisor and said, "See that
> kid? The one whose not oiling the machinery properly? Well, let him be.
> Donąt bother him. This jobąs just a cover for our plot to kill Castro. . .
> you know, the cancer-manufacturing unit down on the first floor, where we
> manufacture Brazillian Roast.]
>
>
>
> [But, says the supervisor, what about the machinery? Whose going to oil it?
> Replies the manager: "If thereąs a problem, call me. *Iąll* oil the
> machinery. But leave the kid alone. We need him as a courier to carry the
> cancer agents." (Really, this would make a great movie!)
>
>
>
> [Again, I ask: if Judyth was a science prodigy, why does she need the "cover"
> of a coffee company? When the manager was walking around, showing off his
> facilities, did he say things like, "Now, hereąs the room where we do our new
> Brazilian roast. . no, hold it! You canąt go in there! Weąre doing lung
> cancer work in there!]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> Oswald was run by one of the intelligence agencies,
>
>
>
> [her evidence for that?]
>
>
>
> she can only speculate which.
>
>
>
> [Iąll say. So can a lot of people.]
>
>
>
> After his bogus defection from Russia
>
>
>
> [Sorry Matt, wrong verb. "After his bogus defection TO Russia., . " He
> defects "from" the U.S. "to" Russia. Then he returns "from" Russia "to" the
> U.S. Sorry for being such a pedant, but thereąs a relationship between use
> of language and precision of thought; and this kind of mistake does make one
> wonder.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> "After his bogus defection from Russia, he was keeping his commie bona-fides
> intact in order that he could be used in Cuba."
>
>
>
> [Well, ok; thatąs a nice general but fairly vague idea. But what do you mean
> by "he was keeping his commie bona-fides "intact"?]
>
>
>
> This is what all his hokey-pokey was about that summer.
>
>
>
> [Hold on, please. What is the antecedent for "this"? Please explain: What is
> "this"? What I think youąre trying to say is that he continues pretending to
> be a Red, right?]
>
>
>
> [Oh oh; here it comes. . . !]
>
>
>
> His trip to Mexico City was to get into Cuba and deliver the biological
> weapon described above.
>
>
>
> [Disguised as coffee, perhaps? Perhaps: Che Guevara Brazillian Brand? Did
> he perhaps also carry with him some Half-and-Half to make it more tasty?]
>
>
>
> When he couldn't get in right away,. . . .
>
>
>
> [Weąre talking about Mexico City now, right? And the scene at the Embassy,
> where Oswald stormed out? ]
>
>
>
> he freaked, as the materials had a short shelf life.
>
>
>
> [In other words, Oswald was carrying cancer agents on that hot old Mexican
> bus?? And without the standard refrigeration units they use when carrying
> biological samples? Youąd think someone would have provided some sort of
> chillbox. And then when he got to the Commercio Hotel, he just kept them in
> the room? What kind of containers were they in, by the way? Tupperware? Or
> what?]
>
>
>
> He had been told that if Castro couldn't be killed, then Kennedy would end up
> having to be.
>
>
>
> [This is another one of those logic-defying statements. Please explain the
> logic. E.g., updated to the present, would it be something like, "If we
> canąt kill Arafat, then weąll have to kill Barak??" I donąt get it, but
> perhaps Judyth does.]
>
>
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on for awhile.
>
>
>
> [Iąm chewing. Iąm chewing. But this doesnąt taste very good. At all!]
mshack
Mr. Lifton tacitly concedes that there might be some evidence he doesn't
know about relating to Judyth.
He seeks to theorize that Judyth "found" her information in the record,
but this would require a range of research that Judyth has been in no
position to carry out. He has gone from theorizing based on
misinterpretation of fragments, to theorizing based on other theorizing.
This is pretty desperate stuff.
Yes, there are materials written by Oswald, unpublished previously.
Yes, the "Queen of Spades" libretto volume is important--but clearly
David has no idea of its significance--unlike the questioner, who had
talked at length with both Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald. No wonder David
was puzzled--this is all new to him, so he speculates wildly.
The fact that Lifton is asking the questions he asks in his long posts
suggest clearly that he didn't learn as much as he thought he did from
his famous phone call--and really doesn't have a clue.
He even has her age very wrong.
And he goes downhill from.
And yet, he still expects us to hand him more information on demand,
despite the fundamentally dishonest way he has handled what he has so
far.
Debra Hartman
lit? Now you went and spoiled everything. I was having such a good
time, smirking at the idea that it was an opera. Kind of like
claiming Pygmalion was a Broadway musical.
Good for you! The real question for me is, who is the redacted
expert, and why keep that secret? I have a strong suspicion. I hope
I'm wrong.
On Sat, 21 Oct 2000 03:22:37 -0400, gene <duqu...@NOSPAM.bigfoot.com>
wrote:
JLeyden900
>From: mshack <msh...@concentric.net>
>Date: Sat, Oct 21, 2000 03:16 EDT
>Message-id: <39F142...@concentric.net>
>
>JGL,
>
> I wonder how many other opinions you would feel comfortable basing
>on a gossip column and a researcher who argues that JFK's body and the
>Zapruder film were both forgeries.
>
>Martin
>--
>Martin Shackelford
>
>
If you will read my post again, you will see that all I did was contrast the
Salon version of JVB's Reily employment with Matt Alison's. Didn't endorse
either one. (BTW, do you have a 3rd version?)
This seems to be a pattern with you: Jumping to conclusions. No wonder you've
dug yourself into such a hole here.
JGL
"Give me four lines of any man's
writing and I can justify a hanging."
Cardinal Richelieu.
gene
>
>
>
> posted by Matt Allison aka Atlas Record) with DSL commentary added in square
> brackets:
>
>
>
> Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
>
> Date: 10/20/2000
>
> Author: Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com>
>
>
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to obtain this story for
> himself and McAdams from poor Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony
> up any details, I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Since the story is already being debated here, it is only fair that everyone
> get a chance at forming an opinion. After all, no one person has the right to
> keep something like this secret at this point.
>
>
>
> [True. . . this could be important, if it were valid. A major
> re-interpretation of the JFK assassination, from the pov of the lady who was
> secretly carrying on an affair with Oswald.]
>
>
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
>
>
> 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them.
>
>
>
> [So she worked there, right? So what?]
>
>
>
> She has writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
>
>
>
> [What "writings"? You mean stuff that is already at the Archives and in the
> day before? If she has that, she could surely sell them on e-bay, and make a
> pretty penny. I am sure that a single letter from Oswald to anyone might
> fetch thousands of dollars.]
>
>
>
> 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and Jack Martin's
> boyfriends that to my knowledge have never been printed anywhere.
>
>
>
> [To *your* knowledge. Correct. She probably got it from her study of the
> records, manufactures her embroidered version or insertion, feeds back, and
> then the listener, e.g. yourself, goes out and "finds" the "corroboration."]
>
>
>
> I only recently found obscure mention of it when digging thru stuff at the
> archives.
>
>
>
> found what is in fact her documentary "inspiration" but, because of the way
> the sequence unfolded in your own frame of reference, have experienced it as
> did she give you hints as to where to "dig"?)]
>
>
>
> 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>
>
>
> [IMHO,based on having known Thornley quite well---total nonsense. Kerry
> Thornley never met Marina.]
>
>
>
> that have never been printed anywhere.
>
>
>
> here it comes, folks. . . ]
>
>
>
> and that I just recently found evidence of in the archives.
>
>
>
> [Again: Bingo. If this is true, and if Kerry being with Marina is in some
> Garrison-generated documentary item, almost certainly she found it somewhere
> on the net, or was told of it, by someone familiar with that part of the
> case; i.e., the Garrison subset of "evidence." Much of that is now at the
> archives, largely as a result of the ARRB]
>
>
>
> [Next comes an anonymous questioner, and a document which is not identified.
> . . but presumably it refers to some private event where someone
> ---sympbolized by ("") questioned Judyth:]
>
>
>
> 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told ( ) that
>
> Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [The Queen of Spades is an opera, not a book. So what do you mean that LHO
> "read to her" from the Queen of Spades. Are you saying that Oswald had the
>
Guess again.
From Amazon.com:
The Queen of Spades and Other Stories : A New Translation
by Aleksandr Sergeevich Pushkin, Alexander Pushkin, Alan Myers
(Translator)
List Price: $10.95
Our Price: $9.85
You Save: $1.10 (10%)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192839543/o/qid=972112714/sr=8-
1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/002-6071104-5723256
gene
> CONTINUING. . .
>
> ( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
>
> "Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then ( ) said,
>
> "What color was it?"
>
>
>
> [Was what? A libretto? Sheet music for this opera? Or what? Just what is
> being referred to here?? FYI: There is no Queen of Spades libretto in the 26
> volumes. Perhaps its at the Archives, as part of the FBI evidence. Is such
> a document there? And did someone obtain a copy and show it to Judyth? Or
> did she obtain a libretto from a store? I know I obtained one, many years
> ago.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> Judyth said, "Gray."
>
>
>
> [i.e. she has now identified the color of a document which, as far as the
> official record is concerned, does not exist; but letąs go on. . . ]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING. . .
>
>
>
> ( )'s jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is nowhere to
> be found. "
>
>
>
> [It sure isnąt. What "information"? Is someone claiming that Oswald had the
> libretto for the Queen of Spades?? And that Judyth has Oswaldąs copy of the
> libretto? And what is this about Ruth Paine or Marina knowing about any such
> libretto in LHOąs possession. I never heard that one before. And it certainly
> is not in the existing record, by which I mean the 26 volumes and the CDąs
> that I am aware of. So what are we to make of what comes next.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> The only people who know that are me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only
> five people could have known about it."
>
>
>
> [Known what? What is "it"?? That Oswald is supposed to have had a libretto?
> And if Ruth Paine and Marina are two of the people, who are the other three?
> Even the arithmetic doesnąt make sense here. "me, Ruth Paine, and Marina. .
> " adds up to 3. So where does "5" come from??]
>
>
>
> BUT NOW, CONTINUING, WITH THE FINALE:
>
>
>
> "I know you were there with Lee Oswald. I know you
>
> were intimate with him, and your credibility has just skyrocketed."
>
>
>
> [Oh, brother: First of all. . . I donąt understand how one navigates from
> knowing about the Queen of Spades, via a libretto or sheet music or anything
> else about that opera, to being intimate with Oswald. The fact that a female
> has a libretto of an opera that is loved by a male, does not mean she is
> having sex with that male. Otherwise, men would start carrying librettos
> along with flowers. So what kind of "logic" is this? ]
>
>
>
> [ Second: there is the question of what libretto is being talked about here,
> and who, today, has physical possession of such an item (because there sure
> is no mention of any such item in the official evidence). But more
> generally. . . as to knowledge about Queen of Spades in general. . this is
> still another example of Judyth, studying the record. She told me all about
> how she read McMillan and Mailer, and, of course, Oswaldąs listening to Queen
> of Spades is very heavily emphasized and discussed in detail in McMillan.]
>
>
>
> [Well, enough of that subject. . .CONTINUING .. . ]
>
>
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert Baker, Judyth was
> Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy, and was doing cancer research in
> high school that was so outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were
> sending her free chemicals to experiment with.
>
>
>
> [OK. . . letąs accept that, for the sake of argument. Though I do not
> understand why she left science, if she was such a prodigy; and went to
> literature where, at this late date, she still doesnąt have her PhD]
>
>
>
> She moved right after high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and
> began working for Reily. Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to
> work for a coffee company, you ask? Good question.
>
>
>
> [Yes, Atlas, a very good one. This is not like Albert Einstein working at
> the Swiss patent office, where he invented relativity. So what is the
> answer?]
>
>
>
> Judy worked as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
>
> Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
>
>
>
> [First of all, what was Monaghanąs function at Reilly, and what, if anything,
> does it have to do with his being a former FBI agent? But OK. . . so where
> does that lead?]
>
>
>
> He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner was familiar
> with this young prodigy's work.
>
>
>
> [Wonderful. But where does that lead?]
>
>
>
> And Ochsner you'll remember was connected with the government in helping
> "with the medical side of subversive activities".
>
>
>
> [OK. . . but how is that connected with Judyth, much less Lee?]
>
>
>
> In 1963 this meant trying to kill Castro.
>
>
>
> [Oh really? Well, how did the plot work?]
>
>
>
> Ochsner was part of a group that was trying to figure out a way to kill
> Castro with lung cancer.
>
>
>
> [Is there any evidence for this? Like, in the Church Comm. Hearings? That
> lung cancer was used as a bio weapon??]
>
>
>
> And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix.
>
>
>
> [Please do explain.]
>
>
>
> Miss Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer cells (which
> are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and was brought to N.O.
>
>
>
> [Wait a minute. Youąre saying that the US Government, and specifically, the
> covert apparatus of the CIA, was going to rely on a 15-16 yr old
> still-in-high school, to do work on this assassination-by-cancer project?]
>
>
>
> Ms. Vary . . . was brought to New Orleans not to shuffle papers but for a
> project that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she induced
> it in mice.
>
>
>
> [Let me see if I have this straight: Judyth induced cancer in mice (so you
> say). The U.S. was trying to kill Castro with lung cancer, and hired this 16
> year old science-prodigy girl to help them out---to take her techniques which
> worked on a mouse, and fabricate a bio-weapon to be used against Castro??]
>
>
>
> [ In other words, even assuming such a project existed, the CIA didnąt use
> the labs in Washington or at NIH or at some major medical facility. They
> used HER??? And put her at a coffee company, for purposes of concealment?]
>
>
>
> [Why? And assuming she had some special scientific gift, why wouldnąt she be
> put in a laboratory somewhere?? Why at a coffee company??]
>
>
>
> [Do you realize how improbable‹no, how ridiculous‹this sounds? Is this the
> essence of the theory that Martin Shackelford is promoting? ]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING (no logical segue here. . . Iąm just quoting your own account):
>
>
>
> She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
>
>
>
> [well, ok; but that doesnąt prove anything. And of what relevance is it?]
>
>
>
> I've seen where they both lived.
>
>
>
> [Nor does that prove anything. It just tells us youąre a history buff, of
> sorts.]
>
>
>
> They were both hired on the same day, . . .
>
>
>
> [So what? This just supports my thesis that Judyth is always trying to
> inject herself into things, utilizing the existing data upon which to build
> her edifice.]
>
>
>
> and according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing infested
> Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
>
>
>
> [Just a minute: if Reilly was so "right wing" infested. . . and all this was
> part of a cover for an intelligence mission, why was he fired just six weeks
> later for not paying attention on the job, and properly oiling the
> machinery??
>
>
>
> [Donąt you think someone high up at Reilly, which was so right-wing infested,
> could have put a hand on the shoulder of some supervisor and said, "See that
> kid? The one whose not oiling the machinery properly? Well, let him be.
> Donąt bother him. This jobąs just a cover for our plot to kill Castro. . .
> you know, the cancer-manufacturing unit down on the first floor, where we
> manufacture Brazillian Roast.]
>
>
>
> [But, says the supervisor, what about the machinery? Whose going to oil it?
> Replies the manager: "If thereąs a problem, call me. *Iąll* oil the
> machinery. But leave the kid alone. We need him as a courier to carry the
> cancer agents." (Really, this would make a great movie!)
>
>
>
> [Again, I ask: if Judyth was a science prodigy, why does she need the "cover"
> of a coffee company? When the manager was walking around, showing off his
> facilities, did he say things like, "Now, hereąs the room where we do our new
> Brazilian roast. . no, hold it! You canąt go in there! Weąre doing lung
> cancer work in there!]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> Oswald was run by one of the intelligence agencies,
>
>
>
> [her evidence for that?]
>
>
>
> she can only speculate which.
>
>
>
> [Iąll say. So can a lot of people.]
>
>
>
> After his bogus defection from Russia
>
>
>
> [Sorry Matt, wrong verb. "After his bogus defection TO Russia., . " He
> defects "from" the U.S. "to" Russia. Then he returns "from" Russia "to" the
> U.S. Sorry for being such a pedant, but thereąs a relationship between use
> of language and precision of thought; and this kind of mistake does make one
> wonder.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> "After his bogus defection from Russia, he was keeping his commie bona-fides
> intact in order that he could be used in Cuba."
>
>
>
> [Well, ok; thatąs a nice general but fairly vague idea. But what do you mean
> by "he was keeping his commie bona-fides "intact"?]
>
>
>
> This is what all his hokey-pokey was about that summer.
>
>
>
> [Hold on, please. What is the antecedent for "this"? Please explain: What is
> "this"? What I think youąre trying to say is that he continues pretending to
> be a Red, right?]
>
>
>
> [Oh oh; here it comes. . . !]
>
>
>
> His trip to Mexico City was to get into Cuba and deliver the biological
> weapon described above.
>
>
>
> [Disguised as coffee, perhaps? Perhaps: Che Guevara Brazillian Brand? Did
> he perhaps also carry with him some Half-and-Half to make it more tasty?]
>
>
>
> When he couldn't get in right away,. . . .
>
>
>
> [Weąre talking about Mexico City now, right? And the scene at the Embassy,
> where Oswald stormed out? ]
>
>
>
> he freaked, as the materials had a short shelf life.
>
>
>
> [In other words, Oswald was carrying cancer agents on that hot old Mexican
> bus?? And without the standard refrigeration units they use when carrying
> biological samples? Youąd think someone would have provided some sort of
> chillbox. And then when he got to the Commercio Hotel, he just kept them in
> the room? What kind of containers were they in, by the way? Tupperware? Or
> what?]
>
>
>
> He had been told that if Castro couldn't be killed, then Kennedy would end up
> having to be.
>
>
>
> [This is another one of those logic-defying statements. Please explain the
> logic. E.g., updated to the present, would it be something like, "If we
> canąt kill Arafat, then weąll have to kill Barak??" I donąt get it, but
> perhaps Judyth does.]
>
>
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on for awhile.
>
>
>
> [Iąm chewing. Iąm chewing. But this doesnąt taste very good. At all!]
gene
>
>
>
> posted by Matt Allison aka Atlas Record) with DSL commentary added in square
> brackets:
>
>
>
> Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
>
> Date: 10/20/2000
>
> Author: Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com>
>
>
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to obtain this story for
> himself and McAdams from poor Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony
> up any details, I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Since the story is already being debated here, it is only fair that everyone
> get a chance at forming an opinion. After all, no one person has the right to
> keep something like this secret at this point.
>
>
>
> [True. . . this could be important, if it were valid. A major
> re-interpretation of the JFK assassination, from the pov of the lady who was
> secretly carrying on an affair with Oswald.]
>
>
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
>
>
> 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them.
>
>
>
> [So she worked there, right? So what?]
>
>
>
> She has writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
>
>
>
> [What "writings"? You mean stuff that is already at the Archives and in the
> day before? If she has that, she could surely sell them on e-bay, and make a
> pretty penny. I am sure that a single letter from Oswald to anyone might
> fetch thousands of dollars.]
>
>
>
> 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and Jack Martin's
> boyfriends that to my knowledge have never been printed anywhere.
>
>
>
> [To *your* knowledge. Correct. She probably got it from her study of the
> records, manufactures her embroidered version or insertion, feeds back, and
> then the listener, e.g. yourself, goes out and "finds" the "corroboration."]
>
>
>
> I only recently found obscure mention of it when digging thru stuff at the
> archives.
>
>
>
> found what is in fact her documentary "inspiration" but, because of the way
> the sequence unfolded in your own frame of reference, have experienced it as
> did she give you hints as to where to "dig"?)]
>
>
>
> 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>
>
>
> [IMHO,based on having known Thornley quite well---total nonsense. Kerry
> Thornley never met Marina.]
>
>
>
> that have never been printed anywhere.
>
>
>
> here it comes, folks. . . ]
>
>
>
> and that I just recently found evidence of in the archives.
>
>
>
> [Again: Bingo. If this is true, and if Kerry being with Marina is in some
> Garrison-generated documentary item, almost certainly she found it somewhere
> on the net, or was told of it, by someone familiar with that part of the
> case; i.e., the Garrison subset of "evidence." Much of that is now at the
> archives, largely as a result of the ARRB]
>
>
>
> [Next comes an anonymous questioner, and a document which is not identified.
> . . but presumably it refers to some private event where someone
> ---sympbolized by ("") questioned Judyth:]
>
>
>
> 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told ( ) that
>
> Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [The Queen of Spades is an opera, not a book. So what do you mean that LHO
> "read to her" from the Queen of Spades. Are you saying that Oswald had the
>
Guess again.
From Amazon.com:
The Queen of Spades and Other Stories : A New Translation
by Aleksandr Sergeevich Pushkin, Alexander Pushkin, Alan Myers
(Translator)
List Price: $10.95
Our Price: $9.85
You Save: $1.10 (10%)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0192839543/o/qid=972112714/sr=8-
1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_3/002-6071104-5723256
gene
> CONTINUING. . .
>
> ( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
>
> "Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then ( ) said,
>
> "What color was it?"
>
>
>
> [Was what? A libretto? Sheet music for this opera? Or what? Just what is
> being referred to here?? FYI: There is no Queen of Spades libretto in the 26
> volumes. Perhaps its at the Archives, as part of the FBI evidence. Is such
> a document there? And did someone obtain a copy and show it to Judyth? Or
> did she obtain a libretto from a store? I know I obtained one, many years
> ago.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> Judyth said, "Gray."
>
>
>
> [i.e. she has now identified the color of a document which, as far as the
> official record is concerned, does not exist; but letąs go on. . . ]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING. . .
>
>
>
> ( )'s jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is nowhere to
> be found. "
>
>
>
> [It sure isnąt. What "information"? Is someone claiming that Oswald had the
> libretto for the Queen of Spades?? And that Judyth has Oswaldąs copy of the
> libretto? And what is this about Ruth Paine or Marina knowing about any such
> libretto in LHOąs possession. I never heard that one before. And it certainly
> is not in the existing record, by which I mean the 26 volumes and the CDąs
> that I am aware of. So what are we to make of what comes next.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> The only people who know that are me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only
> five people could have known about it."
>
>
>
> [Known what? What is "it"?? That Oswald is supposed to have had a libretto?
> And if Ruth Paine and Marina are two of the people, who are the other three?
> Even the arithmetic doesnąt make sense here. "me, Ruth Paine, and Marina. .
> " adds up to 3. So where does "5" come from??]
>
>
>
> BUT NOW, CONTINUING, WITH THE FINALE:
>
>
>
> "I know you were there with Lee Oswald. I know you
>
> were intimate with him, and your credibility has just skyrocketed."
>
>
>
> [Oh, brother: First of all. . . I donąt understand how one navigates from
> knowing about the Queen of Spades, via a libretto or sheet music or anything
> else about that opera, to being intimate with Oswald. The fact that a female
> has a libretto of an opera that is loved by a male, does not mean she is
> having sex with that male. Otherwise, men would start carrying librettos
> along with flowers. So what kind of "logic" is this? ]
>
>
>
> [ Second: there is the question of what libretto is being talked about here,
> and who, today, has physical possession of such an item (because there sure
> is no mention of any such item in the official evidence). But more
> generally. . . as to knowledge about Queen of Spades in general. . this is
> still another example of Judyth, studying the record. She told me all about
> how she read McMillan and Mailer, and, of course, Oswaldąs listening to Queen
> of Spades is very heavily emphasized and discussed in detail in McMillan.]
>
>
>
> [Well, enough of that subject. . .CONTINUING .. . ]
>
>
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert Baker, Judyth was
> Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy, and was doing cancer research in
> high school that was so outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were
> sending her free chemicals to experiment with.
>
>
>
> [OK. . . letąs accept that, for the sake of argument. Though I do not
> understand why she left science, if she was such a prodigy; and went to
> literature where, at this late date, she still doesnąt have her PhD]
>
>
>
> She moved right after high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and
> began working for Reily. Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to
> work for a coffee company, you ask? Good question.
>
>
>
> [Yes, Atlas, a very good one. This is not like Albert Einstein working at
> the Swiss patent office, where he invented relativity. So what is the
> answer?]
>
>
>
> Judy worked as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
>
> Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
>
>
>
> [First of all, what was Monaghanąs function at Reilly, and what, if anything,
> does it have to do with his being a former FBI agent? But OK. . . so where
> does that lead?]
>
>
>
> He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner was familiar
> with this young prodigy's work.
>
>
>
> [Wonderful. But where does that lead?]
>
>
>
> And Ochsner you'll remember was connected with the government in helping
> "with the medical side of subversive activities".
>
>
>
> [OK. . . but how is that connected with Judyth, much less Lee?]
>
>
>
> In 1963 this meant trying to kill Castro.
>
>
>
> [Oh really? Well, how did the plot work?]
>
>
>
> Ochsner was part of a group that was trying to figure out a way to kill
> Castro with lung cancer.
>
>
>
> [Is there any evidence for this? Like, in the Church Comm. Hearings? That
> lung cancer was used as a bio weapon??]
>
>
>
> And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix.
>
>
>
> [Please do explain.]
>
>
>
> Miss Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer cells (which
> are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and was brought to N.O.
>
>
>
> [Wait a minute. Youąre saying that the US Government, and specifically, the
> covert apparatus of the CIA, was going to rely on a 15-16 yr old
> still-in-high school, to do work on this assassination-by-cancer project?]
>
>
>
> Ms. Vary . . . was brought to New Orleans not to shuffle papers but for a
> project that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she induced
> it in mice.
>
>
>
> [Let me see if I have this straight: Judyth induced cancer in mice (so you
> say). The U.S. was trying to kill Castro with lung cancer, and hired this 16
> year old science-prodigy girl to help them out---to take her techniques which
> worked on a mouse, and fabricate a bio-weapon to be used against Castro??]
>
>
>
> [ In other words, even assuming such a project existed, the CIA didnąt use
> the labs in Washington or at NIH or at some major medical facility. They
> used HER??? And put her at a coffee company, for purposes of concealment?]
>
>
>
> [Why? And assuming she had some special scientific gift, why wouldnąt she be
> put in a laboratory somewhere?? Why at a coffee company??]
>
>
>
> [Do you realize how improbable‹no, how ridiculous‹this sounds? Is this the
> essence of the theory that Martin Shackelford is promoting? ]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING (no logical segue here. . . Iąm just quoting your own account):
>
>
>
> She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
>
>
>
> [well, ok; but that doesnąt prove anything. And of what relevance is it?]
>
>
>
> I've seen where they both lived.
>
>
>
> [Nor does that prove anything. It just tells us youąre a history buff, of
> sorts.]
>
>
>
> They were both hired on the same day, . . .
>
>
>
> [So what? This just supports my thesis that Judyth is always trying to
> inject herself into things, utilizing the existing data upon which to build
> her edifice.]
>
>
>
> and according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing infested
> Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
>
>
>
> [Just a minute: if Reilly was so "right wing" infested. . . and all this was
> part of a cover for an intelligence mission, why was he fired just six weeks
> later for not paying attention on the job, and properly oiling the
> machinery??
>
>
>
> [Donąt you think someone high up at Reilly, which was so right-wing infested,
> could have put a hand on the shoulder of some supervisor and said, "See that
> kid? The one whose not oiling the machinery properly? Well, let him be.
> Donąt bother him. This jobąs just a cover for our plot to kill Castro. . .
> you know, the cancer-manufacturing unit down on the first floor, where we
> manufacture Brazillian Roast.]
>
>
>
> [But, says the supervisor, what about the machinery? Whose going to oil it?
> Replies the manager: "If thereąs a problem, call me. *Iąll* oil the
> machinery. But leave the kid alone. We need him as a courier to carry the
> cancer agents." (Really, this would make a great movie!)
>
>
>
> [Again, I ask: if Judyth was a science prodigy, why does she need the "cover"
> of a coffee company? When the manager was walking around, showing off his
> facilities, did he say things like, "Now, hereąs the room where we do our new
> Brazilian roast. . no, hold it! You canąt go in there! Weąre doing lung
> cancer work in there!]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> Oswald was run by one of the intelligence agencies,
>
>
>
> [her evidence for that?]
>
>
>
> she can only speculate which.
>
>
>
> [Iąll say. So can a lot of people.]
>
>
>
> After his bogus defection from Russia
>
>
>
> [Sorry Matt, wrong verb. "After his bogus defection TO Russia., . " He
> defects "from" the U.S. "to" Russia. Then he returns "from" Russia "to" the
> U.S. Sorry for being such a pedant, but thereąs a relationship between use
> of language and precision of thought; and this kind of mistake does make one
> wonder.]
>
>
>
> CONTINUING:
>
>
>
> "After his bogus defection from Russia, he was keeping his commie bona-fides
> intact in order that he could be used in Cuba."
>
>
>
> [Well, ok; thatąs a nice general but fairly vague idea. But what do you mean
> by "he was keeping his commie bona-fides "intact"?]
>
>
>
> This is what all his hokey-pokey was about that summer.
>
>
>
> [Hold on, please. What is the antecedent for "this"? Please explain: What is
> "this"? What I think youąre trying to say is that he continues pretending to
> be a Red, right?]
>
>
>
> [Oh oh; here it comes. . . !]
>
>
>
> His trip to Mexico City was to get into Cuba and deliver the biological
> weapon described above.
>
>
>
> [Disguised as coffee, perhaps? Perhaps: Che Guevara Brazillian Brand? Did
> he perhaps also carry with him some Half-and-Half to make it more tasty?]
>
>
>
> When he couldn't get in right away,. . . .
>
>
>
> [Weąre talking about Mexico City now, right? And the scene at the Embassy,
> where Oswald stormed out? ]
>
>
>
> he freaked, as the materials had a short shelf life.
>
>
>
> [In other words, Oswald was carrying cancer agents on that hot old Mexican
> bus?? And without the standard refrigeration units they use when carrying
> biological samples? Youąd think someone would have provided some sort of
> chillbox. And then when he got to the Commercio Hotel, he just kept them in
> the room? What kind of containers were they in, by the way? Tupperware? Or
> what?]
>
>
>
> He had been told that if Castro couldn't be killed, then Kennedy would end up
> having to be.
>
>
>
> [This is another one of those logic-defying statements. Please explain the
> logic. E.g., updated to the present, would it be something like, "If we
> canąt kill Arafat, then weąll have to kill Barak??" I donąt get it, but
> perhaps Judyth does.]
>
>
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on for awhile.
>
>
>
> [Iąm chewing. Iąm chewing. But this doesnąt taste very good. At all!]
Jerry
Nevertheless, Oswald was a fan of Tchaikovski's opera, Pique Dame, or
The Queen of Spades. The libretto of which he read from.
Oswald had no appreciation of high culture, but, liked to pretend that
he did so that people wouldn't think of him as "a semi-educated
hillbilly" - which is what he was.
Jerry
In article <MPG.145b87f03...@news.randori.com>,
gene <duqu...@NOSPAM.bigfoot.com> wrote:
> In article <8sr5o1$ec2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dli...@my-deja.com says...
> > RE: "Some of Ms. Baker's account," by Matt Allison, (aka Atlas
Record)
> >
> >
> >
> > What follows is a line by line reproduction of Judyth Baker零
story, as
> > posted by Matt Allison aka Atlas Record) with DSL commentary added
in square
> > brackets:
> >
> >
> >
> > Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
> >
> > Date: 10/20/2000
> >
> > Author: Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com>
> >
> >
> >
> > As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to obtain this
story for
> > himself and McAdams from poor Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton
won't pony
> > up any details, I will, and you can make your own judgements.
> >
> >
> >
> > [OK, let零 do that.]
> >
> >
> >
> > Since the story is already being debated here, it is only fair that
everyone
> > get a chance at forming an opinion. After all, no one person has
the right to
> > keep something like this secret at this point.
> >
> >
> >
> > [True. . . this could be important, if it were valid. A major
> > re-interpretation of the JFK assassination, from the pov of the
lady who was
> > secretly carrying on an affair with Oswald.]
> >
> >
> >
> > First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them.
> >
> >
> >
> > [So she worked there, right? So what?]
> >
> >
> >
> > She has writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
> >
> >
> >
> > [What "writings"? You mean stuff that is already at the Archives
and in the
> > 26 volumes? Or writings, in Oswald零 hand, that have never seen
the light of
> > day before? If she has that, she could surely sell them on e-bay,
and make a
> > pretty penny. I am sure that a single letter from Oswald to anyone
might
> > fetch thousands of dollars.]
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and Jack
Martin's
> > boyfriends that to my knowledge have never been printed anywhere.
> >
> >
> >
> > [To *your* knowledge. Correct. She probably got it from her
study of the
> > record. She零 like an idiot-savant when it comes to that. She
studies the
> > records, manufactures her embroidered version or insertion, feeds
back, and
> > then the listener, e.g. yourself, goes out and "finds"
the "corroboration."]
> >
> >
> >
> > I only recently found obscure mention of it when digging thru
stuff at the
> > archives.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Exactly. See what I mean? That零 exactly what this lady does.
You probably
> > found what is in fact her documentary "inspiration" but, because of
the way
> > the sequence unfolded in your own frame of reference, have
experienced it as
> > "corroboration". This is the essence of her whole m.o. (And I雋
curious:
> > did she give you hints as to where to "dig"?)]
> >
> >
> >
> > 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
> >
> >
> >
> > [IMHO,based on having known Thornley quite well---total nonsense.
Kerry
> > Thornley never met Marina.]
> >
> >
> >
> > that have never been printed anywhere.
> >
> >
> >
> > [that零 right . . .the same m.o. as I was talking about just above;
And now,
> > here it comes, folks. . . ]
> >
> >
> >
> > and that I just recently found evidence of in the archives.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Again: Bingo. If this is true, and if Kerry being with Marina
is in some
> > Garrison-generated documentary item, almost certainly she found it
somewhere
> > on the net, or was told of it, by someone familiar with that part
of the
> > case; i.e., the Garrison subset of "evidence." Much of that is now
at the
> > archives, largely as a result of the ARRB]
> >
> >
> >
> > [Next comes an anonymous questioner, and a document which is not
identified.
> > . . but presumably it refers to some private event where someone
> > ---sympbolized by ("") questioned Judyth:]
> >
> >
> >
> > 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told ( )
that
> >
> > Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Time out! A serious question𠸐ne of format.]
> >
> >
> >
> > [The Queen of Spades is an opera, not a book. So what do you mean
that LHO
> > "read to her" from the Queen of Spades. Are you saying that
Oswald had the
> > libretto𤷫.e. a written copy of the text of this opera?
> > official record is concerned, does not exist; but let零 go on. . . ]
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTINUING. . .
> >
> >
> >
> > ( )'s jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
nowhere to
> > be found. "
> >
> >
> >
> > [It sure isn靖. What "information"? Is someone claiming that
Oswald had the
> > libretto for the Queen of Spades?? And that Judyth has Oswald零
copy of the
> > libretto? And what is this about Ruth Paine or Marina knowing
about any such
> > libretto in LHO零 possession. I never heard that one before. And it
certainly
> > is not in the existing record, by which I mean the 26 volumes and
the CD零
> > that I am aware of. So what are we to make of what comes next.]
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTINUING:
> >
> >
> >
> > The only people who know that are me, Ruth Paine, and Marina
Oswald. Only
> > five people could have known about it."
> >
> >
> >
> > [Known what? What is "it"?? That Oswald is supposed to have had a
libretto?
> > And if Ruth Paine and Marina are two of the people, who are the
other three?
> > Even the arithmetic doesn靖 make sense here. "me, Ruth Paine, and
Marina. .
> > " adds up to 3. So where does "5" come from??]
> >
> >
> >
> > BUT NOW, CONTINUING, WITH THE FINALE:
> >
> >
> >
> > "I know you were there with Lee Oswald. I know you
> >
> > were intimate with him, and your credibility has just skyrocketed."
> >
> >
> >
> > [Oh, brother: First of all. . . I don靖 understand how one
navigates from
> > knowing about the Queen of Spades, via a libretto or sheet music or
anything
> > else about that opera, to being intimate with Oswald. The fact
that a female
> > has a libretto of an opera that is loved by a male, does not mean
she is
> > having sex with that male. Otherwise, men would start carrying
librettos
> > along with flowers. So what kind of "logic" is this? ]
> >
> >
> >
> > [ Second: there is the question of what libretto is being talked
about here,
> > and who, today, has physical possession of such an item (because
there sure
> > is no mention of any such item in the official evidence). But more
> > generally. . . as to knowledge about Queen of Spades in general. .
this is
> > still another example of Judyth, studying the record. She told me
all about
> > how she read McMillan and Mailer, and, of course, Oswald零
listening to Queen
> > of Spades is very heavily emphasized and discussed in detail in
McMillan.]
> >
> >
> >
> > [Well, enough of that subject. . .CONTINUING .. . ]
> >
> >
> >
> > Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert Baker,
Judyth was
> > Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy, and was doing cancer
research in
> > high school that was so outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed
were
> > sending her free chemicals to experiment with.
> >
> >
> >
> > [OK. . . let零 accept that, for the sake of argument. Though I do
not
> > understand why she left science, if she was such a prodigy; and
went to
> > literature where, at this late date, she still doesn靖 have her PhD]
> >
> >
> >
> > She moved right after high school to New Orleans in the spring
of '63 and
> > began working for Reily. Why would a cancer research prodigy move
to N.O. to
> > work for a coffee company, you ask? Good question.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Yes, Atlas, a very good one. This is not like Albert Einstein
working at
> > the Swiss patent office, where he invented relativity. So what
is the
> > answer?]
> >
> >
> >
> > Judy worked as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
> >
> > Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
> >
> >
> >
> > [First of all, what was Monaghan零 function at Reilly, and what, if
> > [Wait a minute. You雹e saying that the US Government, and
specifically, the
> > covert apparatus of the CIA, was going to rely on a 15-16 yr old
> > still-in-high school, to do work on this assassination-by-cancer
project?]
> >
> >
> >
> > Ms. Vary . . . was brought to New Orleans not to shuffle papers but
for a
> > project that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way
she induced
> > it in mice.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Let me see if I have this straight: Judyth induced cancer in mice
(so you
> > say). The U.S. was trying to kill Castro with lung cancer, and
hired this 16
> > year old science-prodigy girl to help them out---to take her
techniques which
> > worked on a mouse, and fabricate a bio-weapon to be used against
Castro??]
> >
> >
> >
> > [ In other words, even assuming such a project existed, the CIA
didn靖 use
> > the labs in Washington or at NIH or at some major medical
facility. They
> > used HER??? And put her at a coffee company, for purposes of
concealment?]
> >
> >
> >
> > [Why? And assuming she had some special scientific gift, why
wouldn靖 she be
> > put in a laboratory somewhere?? Why at a coffee company??]
> >
> >
> >
> > [Do you realize how improbable𡃉o, how ridiculous𡑕his sounds?
Is this the
> > essence of the theory that Martin Shackelford is promoting? ]
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTINUING (no logical segue here. . . I雋 just quoting your own
account):
> >
> >
> >
> > She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
> >
> >
> >
> > [well, ok; but that doesn靖 prove anything. And of what relevance
is it?]
> >
> >
> >
> > I've seen where they both lived.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Nor does that prove anything. It just tells us you雹e a history
buff, of
> > sorts.]
> >
> >
> >
> > They were both hired on the same day, . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > [So what? This just supports my thesis that Judyth is always
trying to
> > inject herself into things, utilizing the existing data upon which
to build
> > her edifice.]
> >
> >
> >
> > and according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
infested
> > Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Just a minute: if Reilly was so "right wing" infested. . . and all
this was
> > part of a cover for an intelligence mission, why was he fired just
six weeks
> > later for not paying attention on the job, and properly oiling the
> > machinery??
> >
> >
> >
> > [Don靖 you think someone high up at Reilly, which was so right-wing
infested,
> > could have put a hand on the shoulder of some supervisor and
said, "See that
> > kid? The one whose not oiling the machinery properly? Well,
let him be.
> > Don靖 bother him. This job零 just a cover for our plot to kill
Castro. . .
> > you know, the cancer-manufacturing unit down on the first floor,
where we
> > manufacture Brazillian Roast.]
> >
> >
> >
> > [But, says the supervisor, what about the machinery? Whose going
to oil it?
> > Replies the manager: "If there零 a problem, call me. *I雍l* oil the
> > machinery. But leave the kid alone. We need him as a courier to
carry the
> > cancer agents." (Really, this would make a great movie!)
> >
> >
> >
> > [Again, I ask: if Judyth was a science prodigy, why does she need
the "cover"
> > of a coffee company? When the manager was walking around, showing
off his
> > facilities, did he say things like, "Now, here零 the room where we
do our new
> > Brazilian roast. . no, hold it! You can靖 go in there! We雹e
doing lung
> > cancer work in there!]
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTINUING:
> >
> >
> >
> > Oswald was run by one of the intelligence agencies,
> >
> >
> >
> > [her evidence for that?]
> >
> >
> >
> > she can only speculate which.
> >
> >
> >
> > [I雍l say. So can a lot of people.]
> >
> >
> >
> > After his bogus defection from Russia
> >
> >
> >
> > [Sorry Matt, wrong verb. "After his bogus defection TO
Russia., . " He
> > defects "from" the U.S. "to" Russia. Then he returns "from"
Russia "to" the
> > U.S. Sorry for being such a pedant, but there零 a relationship
between use
> > of language and precision of thought; and this kind of mistake does
make one
> > wonder.]
> >
> >
> >
> > CONTINUING:
> >
> >
> >
> > "After his bogus defection from Russia, he was keeping his commie
bona-fides
> > intact in order that he could be used in Cuba."
> >
> >
> >
> > [Well, ok; that零 a nice general but fairly vague idea. But what
do you mean
> > by "he was keeping his commie bona-fides "intact"?]
> >
> >
> >
> > This is what all his hokey-pokey was about that summer.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Hold on, please. What is the antecedent for "this"? Please
explain: What is
> > "this"? What I think you雹e trying to say is that he continues
pretending to
> > be a Red, right?]
> >
> >
> >
> > [Oh oh; here it comes. . . !]
> >
> >
> >
> > His trip to Mexico City was to get into Cuba and deliver the
biological
> > weapon described above.
> >
> >
> >
> > [Disguised as coffee, perhaps? Perhaps: Che Guevara Brazillian
Brand? Did
> > he perhaps also carry with him some Half-and-Half to make it more
tasty?]
> >
> >
> >
> > When he couldn't get in right away,. . . .
> >
> >
> >
> > [We雹e talking about Mexico City now, right? And the scene at the
Embassy,
> > where Oswald stormed out? ]
> >
> >
> >
> > he freaked, as the materials had a short shelf life.
> >
> >
> >
> > [In other words, Oswald was carrying cancer agents on that hot old
Mexican
> > bus?? And without the standard refrigeration units they use when
carrying
> > biological samples? You鉅 think someone would have provided some
sort of
> > chillbox. And then when he got to the Commercio Hotel, he just kept
them in
> > the room? What kind of containers were they in, by the way?
Tupperware? Or
> > what?]
> >
> >
> >
> > He had been told that if Castro couldn't be killed, then Kennedy
would end up
> > having to be.
> >
> >
> >
> > [This is another one of those logic-defying statements. Please
explain the
> > logic. E.g., updated to the present, would it be something
like, "If we
> > can靖 kill Arafat, then we雍l have to kill Barak??" I don靖 get
it, but
> > perhaps Judyth does.]
> >
> >
> >
> > There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on for awhile.
> >
> >
> >
> > [I雋 chewing. I雋 chewing. But this doesn靖 taste very good. At
Jerry
Let's turn a sceptical eye to this tale - as scepticism is due.
> 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
> writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
That is very bizarre - the keeping of pay stubs from 37 years ago! It
makes you wonder how long ago she began contemplating the exploitation
of a possible association with Oswald.
Writings of Oswald? - perhaps she has the WCR!
> 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
> Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
> been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
> of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
Ferrie and Martin? They are abundantly documented and documents
liberally sprinkled with names, which anybody can pick up.
But, if her knowledge "has never been printed anywhere" -- then you're
saying that you're unable to corroborate it.
Unless you want to tell us that you personally met Ferrie and he
disclosed info to you that was never printed -- do you claim to have
done so?
> 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
> that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
> recently found evidence of in the archives.
Here is where she's going to get in trouble. David Lifton was a friend
of Thornley - conveniently dead, as are Martin and Ferrie and
conveniently unable to pass judgement on Judyth - and knows better.
And I'll bet you big that there is no doc in the archives that
substantiates any relationship whatsoever between Thornley and Marina.
And we can ask Marina about that one, too.
Insofar as Baker's story can be checked out - she's in trouble.
> 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
> ( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
> ( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
> "Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
> ( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
> jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
> nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
> me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
> have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
> I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
> just skyrocketed."
All because she guessed that an opera libretto - invariably printed
without color - was grey?
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
> Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
> and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
> outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
> free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
> high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
> working for Reily.
> Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
> for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
> as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
> Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
> He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
> was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll
remember was connected with the government in helping
> "with the medical side of subversive activities".
No, I don't remember that. Please substantiate that claim.
In 1963
> this meant trying to kill Castro.
And we know precisely - Des FitzGerald's staff is largely alive and
available - what was going on in that department.
And we know that efforts centered around helping Cubela pull off a coup
in which Castro would be killed.
Ochsner was part of a group
> that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
> cancer.
That is a medical impossibility. Judyth has dealt her credibility a
fatal blow.
And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix. Miss
> Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
> cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and
> was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
> that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
> induced it in mice.
I'd like to hear all about her experiment design and the lab facilities
and engineering controls she needed to do this kind of work.
Now, we come into an area where I have expertise.
> She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
> they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
> according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
> infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
Oswald's activities? He oiled coffee machines -- and was in a stinking
and foul mood the whole time he worked there - scowling - talking to
nobody - ignoring everybody. One time he had an outburst with his
supervisor - "Do you like it here?" - which is the first and only time
he ever spoke to him or to anybody else.
Oswald was in no mood for romance in the summer of 1963.
Oswald
> was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
> speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
> was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
> could be used in Cuba.
Even the release of the Russian docs and the statements of the KGB
officers and Chief hasn't been enough to blow this canard out of the
water?
Incredible!
This is what all his hokey-pokey was
> about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
> Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above.
Here is where it gets good. Here is where the story bursts all limits
of credibility!
We know there were meetings with Cubela around this time. Of course,
they could have given 'it' to him.
And we know that Dave Phillips parachuted into Cuba around this time.
Or at least some of us did.
And there were regular supply runs - by air and sea.
But, you guys have Ozzie going down on a bus??
ROFLMAO!
When
> he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
> a short shelf life.
I guess the dry ice he would have been carrying the material in had
melted on that long, long, long trip down and all those pointless days.
Geez they didn't even have the forethought to supply him with pics!
Or a letter of referral by somebody in good standing with the
Revolution!
So, this great intel agency didn't foresee that Ozzie wouldn't be able
to get a visa??
Is this how you think infiltration is carried out?????????????????????
This is an incredible story in which a few germs of truth are padded
with known names and standard buff themes to make an oliomargerine that
is putrid on arrival!
Matt, I'll tell you, buddy-to-buddy; this ain't gonna fly!
Jerry
He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
> killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
Now there's the most extreme example of a non sequitor that I've ever
seen!!!!
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
> for awhile.
>
>
gene
> Gene,
>
> Nevertheless, Oswald was a fan of Tchaikovski's opera, Pique Dame, or
> The Queen of Spades. The libretto of which he read from.
>
> Oswald had no appreciation of high culture, but, liked to pretend that
> he did so that people wouldn't think of him as "a semi-educated
> hillbilly" - which is what he was.
>
> Jerry
I was responding to dlifton saying it was a libretto Oswald read from.
HE said it wasn't a book. I was just pointing out that it is indeed a
book.
The original statement was that LHO read "The Queen of Spades" from a
book.
gene
> In article <MPG.145b87f03...@news.randori.com>,
> gene <duqu...@NOSPAM.bigfoot.com> wrote:
> > In article <8sr5o1$ec2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, dli...@my-deja.com says...
> > > RE: "Some of Ms. Baker's account," by Matt Allison, (aka Atlas
> Record)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > What follows is a line by line reproduction of Judyth Bakerąs
> story, as
> > > posted by Matt Allison aka Atlas Record) with DSL commentary added
> in square
> > > brackets:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Subject: some of Ms. Baker's account
> > >
> > > Date: 10/20/2000
> > >
> > > Author: Atlasrecrd <atlas...@aol.com>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to obtain this
> story for
> > > himself and McAdams from poor Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton
> won't pony
> > > up any details, I will, and you can make your own judgements.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [OK, letąs do that.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Since the story is already being debated here, it is only fair that
> everyone
> > > get a chance at forming an opinion. After all, no one person has
> the right to
> > > keep something like this secret at this point.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [True. . . this could be important, if it were valid. A major
> > > re-interpretation of the JFK assassination, from the pov of the
> lady who was
> > > secretly carrying on an affair with Oswald.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [So she worked there, right? So what?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > She has writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [What "writings"? You mean stuff that is already at the Archives
> and in the
> > > 26 volumes? Or writings, in Oswaldąs hand, that have never seen
> the light of
> > > day before? If she has that, she could surely sell them on e-bay,
> and make a
> > > pretty penny. I am sure that a single letter from Oswald to anyone
> might
> > > fetch thousands of dollars.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and Jack
> Martin's
> > > boyfriends that to my knowledge have never been printed anywhere.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [To *your* knowledge. Correct. She probably got it from her
> study of the
> > > record. Sheąs like an idiot-savant when it comes to that. She
> studies the
> > > records, manufactures her embroidered version or insertion, feeds
> back, and
> > > then the listener, e.g. yourself, goes out and "finds"
> the "corroboration."]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I only recently found obscure mention of it when digging thru
> stuff at the
> > > archives.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Exactly. See what I mean? Thatąs exactly what this lady does.
> You probably
> > > found what is in fact her documentary "inspiration" but, because of
> the way
> > > the sequence unfolded in your own frame of reference, have
> experienced it as
> > > "corroboration". This is the essence of her whole m.o. (And Iąm
> curious:
> > > did she give you hints as to where to "dig"?)]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [IMHO,based on having known Thornley quite well---total nonsense.
> Kerry
> > > Thornley never met Marina.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > that have never been printed anywhere.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [thatąs right . . .the same m.o. as I was talking about just above;
> And now,
> > > here it comes, folks. . . ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > and that I just recently found evidence of in the archives.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Again: Bingo. If this is true, and if Kerry being with Marina
> is in some
> > > Garrison-generated documentary item, almost certainly she found it
> somewhere
> > > on the net, or was told of it, by someone familiar with that part
> of the
> > > case; i.e., the Garrison subset of "evidence." Much of that is now
> at the
> > > archives, largely as a result of the ARRB]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Next comes an anonymous questioner, and a document which is not
> identified.
> > > . . but presumably it refers to some private event where someone
> > > ---sympbolized by ("") questioned Judyth:]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told ( )
> that
> > >
> > > Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Time out! A serious question‹one of format.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [The Queen of Spades is an opera, not a book. So what do you mean
> that LHO
> > > "read to her" from the Queen of Spades. Are you saying that
> Oswald had the
> > > libretto‹i.e. a written copy of the text of this opera?
> > > official record is concerned, does not exist; but letąs go on. . . ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONTINUING. . .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ( )'s jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
> nowhere to
> > > be found. "
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [It sure isnąt. What "information"? Is someone claiming that
> Oswald had the
> > > libretto for the Queen of Spades?? And that Judyth has Oswaldąs
> copy of the
> > > libretto? And what is this about Ruth Paine or Marina knowing
> about any such
> > > libretto in LHOąs possession. I never heard that one before. And it
> certainly
> > > is not in the existing record, by which I mean the 26 volumes and
> the CDąs
> > > that I am aware of. So what are we to make of what comes next.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONTINUING:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The only people who know that are me, Ruth Paine, and Marina
> Oswald. Only
> > > five people could have known about it."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Known what? What is "it"?? That Oswald is supposed to have had a
> libretto?
> > > And if Ruth Paine and Marina are two of the people, who are the
> other three?
> > > Even the arithmetic doesnąt make sense here. "me, Ruth Paine, and
> Marina. .
> > > " adds up to 3. So where does "5" come from??]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > BUT NOW, CONTINUING, WITH THE FINALE:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "I know you were there with Lee Oswald. I know you
> > >
> > > were intimate with him, and your credibility has just skyrocketed."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Oh, brother: First of all. . . I donąt understand how one
> navigates from
> > > knowing about the Queen of Spades, via a libretto or sheet music or
> anything
> > > else about that opera, to being intimate with Oswald. The fact
> that a female
> > > has a libretto of an opera that is loved by a male, does not mean
> she is
> > > having sex with that male. Otherwise, men would start carrying
> librettos
> > > along with flowers. So what kind of "logic" is this? ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [ Second: there is the question of what libretto is being talked
> about here,
> > > and who, today, has physical possession of such an item (because
> there sure
> > > is no mention of any such item in the official evidence). But more
> > > generally. . . as to knowledge about Queen of Spades in general. .
> this is
> > > still another example of Judyth, studying the record. She told me
> all about
> > > how she read McMillan and Mailer, and, of course, Oswaldąs
> listening to Queen
> > > of Spades is very heavily emphasized and discussed in detail in
> McMillan.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Well, enough of that subject. . .CONTINUING .. . ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert Baker,
> Judyth was
> > > Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy, and was doing cancer
> research in
> > > high school that was so outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed
> were
> > > sending her free chemicals to experiment with.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [OK. . . letąs accept that, for the sake of argument. Though I do
> not
> > > understand why she left science, if she was such a prodigy; and
> went to
> > > literature where, at this late date, she still doesnąt have her PhD]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > She moved right after high school to New Orleans in the spring
> of '63 and
> > > began working for Reily. Why would a cancer research prodigy move
> to N.O. to
> > > work for a coffee company, you ask? Good question.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Yes, Atlas, a very good one. This is not like Albert Einstein
> working at
> > > the Swiss patent office, where he invented relativity. So what
> is the
> > > answer?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Judy worked as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
> > >
> > > Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [First of all, what was Monaghanąs function at Reilly, and what, if
> > > [Wait a minute. Youąre saying that the US Government, and
> specifically, the
> > > covert apparatus of the CIA, was going to rely on a 15-16 yr old
> > > still-in-high school, to do work on this assassination-by-cancer
> project?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ms. Vary . . . was brought to New Orleans not to shuffle papers but
> for a
> > > project that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way
> she induced
> > > it in mice.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Let me see if I have this straight: Judyth induced cancer in mice
> (so you
> > > say). The U.S. was trying to kill Castro with lung cancer, and
> hired this 16
> > > year old science-prodigy girl to help them out---to take her
> techniques which
> > > worked on a mouse, and fabricate a bio-weapon to be used against
> Castro??]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [ In other words, even assuming such a project existed, the CIA
> didnąt use
> > > the labs in Washington or at NIH or at some major medical
> facility. They
> > > used HER??? And put her at a coffee company, for purposes of
> concealment?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Why? And assuming she had some special scientific gift, why
> wouldnąt she be
> > > put in a laboratory somewhere?? Why at a coffee company??]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Do you realize how improbable‹no, how ridiculous‹this sounds?
> Is this the
> > > essence of the theory that Martin Shackelford is promoting? ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONTINUING (no logical segue here. . . Iąm just quoting your own
> account):
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [well, ok; but that doesnąt prove anything. And of what relevance
> is it?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I've seen where they both lived.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Nor does that prove anything. It just tells us youąre a history
> buff, of
> > > sorts.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > They were both hired on the same day, . . .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [So what? This just supports my thesis that Judyth is always
> trying to
> > > inject herself into things, utilizing the existing data upon which
> to build
> > > her edifice.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > and according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
> infested
> > > Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Just a minute: if Reilly was so "right wing" infested. . . and all
> this was
> > > part of a cover for an intelligence mission, why was he fired just
> six weeks
> > > later for not paying attention on the job, and properly oiling the
> > > machinery??
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Donąt you think someone high up at Reilly, which was so right-wing
> infested,
> > > could have put a hand on the shoulder of some supervisor and
> said, "See that
> > > kid? The one whose not oiling the machinery properly? Well,
> let him be.
> > > Donąt bother him. This jobąs just a cover for our plot to kill
> Castro. . .
> > > you know, the cancer-manufacturing unit down on the first floor,
> where we
> > > manufacture Brazillian Roast.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [But, says the supervisor, what about the machinery? Whose going
> to oil it?
> > > Replies the manager: "If thereąs a problem, call me. *Iąll* oil the
> > > machinery. But leave the kid alone. We need him as a courier to
> carry the
> > > cancer agents." (Really, this would make a great movie!)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Again, I ask: if Judyth was a science prodigy, why does she need
> the "cover"
> > > of a coffee company? When the manager was walking around, showing
> off his
> > > facilities, did he say things like, "Now, hereąs the room where we
> do our new
> > > Brazilian roast. . no, hold it! You canąt go in there! Weąre
> doing lung
> > > cancer work in there!]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONTINUING:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Oswald was run by one of the intelligence agencies,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [her evidence for that?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > she can only speculate which.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Iąll say. So can a lot of people.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > After his bogus defection from Russia
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Sorry Matt, wrong verb. "After his bogus defection TO
> Russia., . " He
> > > defects "from" the U.S. "to" Russia. Then he returns "from"
> Russia "to" the
> > > U.S. Sorry for being such a pedant, but thereąs a relationship
> between use
> > > of language and precision of thought; and this kind of mistake does
> make one
> > > wonder.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > CONTINUING:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "After his bogus defection from Russia, he was keeping his commie
> bona-fides
> > > intact in order that he could be used in Cuba."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Well, ok; thatąs a nice general but fairly vague idea. But what
> do you mean
> > > by "he was keeping his commie bona-fides "intact"?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is what all his hokey-pokey was about that summer.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Hold on, please. What is the antecedent for "this"? Please
> explain: What is
> > > "this"? What I think youąre trying to say is that he continues
> pretending to
> > > be a Red, right?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Oh oh; here it comes. . . !]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > His trip to Mexico City was to get into Cuba and deliver the
> biological
> > > weapon described above.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Disguised as coffee, perhaps? Perhaps: Che Guevara Brazillian
> Brand? Did
> > > he perhaps also carry with him some Half-and-Half to make it more
> tasty?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > When he couldn't get in right away,. . . .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Weąre talking about Mexico City now, right? And the scene at the
> Embassy,
> > > where Oswald stormed out? ]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > he freaked, as the materials had a short shelf life.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [In other words, Oswald was carrying cancer agents on that hot old
> Mexican
> > > bus?? And without the standard refrigeration units they use when
> carrying
> > > biological samples? Youąd think someone would have provided some
> sort of
> > > chillbox. And then when he got to the Commercio Hotel, he just kept
> them in
> > > the room? What kind of containers were they in, by the way?
> Tupperware? Or
> > > what?]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > He had been told that if Castro couldn't be killed, then Kennedy
> would end up
> > > having to be.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [This is another one of those logic-defying statements. Please
> explain the
> > > logic. E.g., updated to the present, would it be something
> like, "If we
> > > canąt kill Arafat, then weąll have to kill Barak??" I donąt get
> it, but
> > > perhaps Judyth does.]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on for awhile.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Iąm chewing. Iąm chewing. But this doesnąt taste very good. At
Debra Hartman
posted, it seems to me that an important linchpin of Ms. Baker's
story is the confirmation by the person in 4. below of Baker's
knowledge of something known only by someone close to Oswald or
Marina. Why have you redacted the name? If this person is respected
and in a position to know, it seems to me that would add a new
dimension to the discussion, and give pause to your chief attacker,
Why not say who it is?
On 20 Oct 2000 19:54:14 GMT, atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
>obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
>Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
>I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
> SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
>that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
>no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
>at this point.
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
>1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
>writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
>
>2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
>Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
>been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
>of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
>
>3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
>recently found evidence of in the archives.
>
>4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
>( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
>( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
>"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
>( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
>jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
>nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
>me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
>have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
>I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
>just skyrocketed."
>
>
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
>Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
>and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
>outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
>free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
>high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
>working for Reily.
> Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
>for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
>as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
>Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
>He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
>was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll remember was
>connected with the government in helping
>"with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
>this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
>that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
>cancer. And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix. Miss
>Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
>cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and
>was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
>that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
>induced it in mice.
>She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
>they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
>according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
>infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities. Oswald
>was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
>speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
>was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
>could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
>about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
>Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
>he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
>a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
>killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
>
art guerrilla
jelly was above them all, the damn little
peeps, stop peeping will you!-
>Oswald had no appreciation of high culture, but, liked to pretend that
>he did so that people wouldn't think of him as "a semi-educated
>hillbilly" - which is what he was.
*whew*
dog damn, jelly, why didn't you *tell* us
you knew ozzie way back when in the
good old days...
sure woulda saved a *lot* of the peeps here
a *lot* of idle and wrongheaded speculation
when we have your invaluable firsthand
witnessing...
...and dog *damn* ozzie for pretending to
'higher' cultural appreciation, dog *damn*
him for trying to improve himself, damn
little hillbilly...
ann vote-nader-or-pretend archy
eof
Jerry
Maybe it would help if you knew what a *libretto* is.
Jerry
In article <MPG.145bb7b8f35320ec989680@news>,
Jerry
In article <39f1edc6...@news.earthlink.net>,
debhar...@yahoo.com (Debra Hartman) wrote:
> Without commenting one way or the other on any of what you have
> posted, it seems to me that an important linchpin of Ms. Baker's
> story is the confirmation by the person in 4. below of Baker's
> knowledge of something known only by someone close to Oswald or
> Marina. Why have you redacted the name? If this person is respected
> and in a position to know, it seems to me that would add a new
> dimension to the discussion, and give pause to your chief attacker,
> Why not say who it is?
Could it be Gregory?
Jerry
>
> On 20 Oct 2000 19:54:14 GMT, atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>
> >
> > As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
> >obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
> >Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
> >I will, and you can make your own judgements.
> >
> > SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
> >that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
> >no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
> >at this point.
> >
> > First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
> >
> >1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
> >writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
> >
> >2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
> >Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
> >been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
> >of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
> >
> >3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
> >that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
> >recently found evidence of in the archives.
> >
> >4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
> >( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
> >( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
> >"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
> >( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
> >jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
> >nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
> >me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
> >have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
> >I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
> >just skyrocketed."
> >
> >
> >
> > Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
> >Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
> >and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
> >outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
> >free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
> >high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
> >working for Reily.
> > Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
> >for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
> >as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
> >Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
> >He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
> >was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll
remember was
> >connected with the government in helping
> >"with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
> >this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
> >that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
> >cancer. And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix. Miss
> >Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
> >cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and
> >was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
> >that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
> >induced it in mice.
> >She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
> >they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
> >according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
> >infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities. Oswald
> >was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
> >speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
> >was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
> >could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
> >about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
> >Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
> >he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
> >a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
> >killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
> >
> > There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
> >for awhile.
> >
>
>
John McAdams
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
>obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
>Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
>I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
> SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
>that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
>no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
>at this point.
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
>1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
>writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
Exactly what "writings of Oswald's?" Love letters? Receipts?
Have any of her "writings of Oswald's" been checked by a questioned
documents expert?
>
>2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
Matt, Ferrie was homosexual.
>Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
>been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
>of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
>
And what specifically did you find that corroborated her?
>3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
>recently found evidence of in the archives.
>
You're not talking about what some crackpot informant told the
Garrison people, are you?
How about posting the "recently found evidence?" Or at least posting
the record number?
>4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
>( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
>( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
>"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
>( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
>jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
>nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
>me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
>have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
>I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
>just skyrocketed."
>
The QUEEN OF SPADES stuff was in MARINA AND LEE.
>
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
>Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
>and was doing cancer research in high school
???!!!???!!!
>that was so
>outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
>free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
>high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
>working for Reily.
OIC. She was a child prodigy, doing cancer research, and known to
doctors at Walter Reed, and she didn't even go to college.
> Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
>for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
>as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
>Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
>He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
>was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll
>remember was
>connected with the government in helping
>"with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
>this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
>that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
>cancer.
This is getting *less* rather than more credible as it goes along.
>And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix. Miss
>Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
>cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab)
Right. Just out of high school and she didn't even go to college.
>and
>was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
>that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
>induced it in mice.
I love it! The CIA was unable to hire any cancer researchers with any
training or credentials, and they hired a high school graduate who
worked at a coffee company!
>She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
>they both lived.
Where did she *say* they lived?
>They were both hired on the same day, and
>according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
>infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities. Oswald
>was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
>speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
>was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
>could be used in Cuba.
Yep, she's been reading conspiracy books.
>This is what all his hokey-pokey was
>about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
>Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
>he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
>a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
>killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
>
Well *that* makes perfect sense!
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
>for awhile.
>
It sure is!
.John
--
Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
John McAdams
>Please do supply archival references for this claim:
>
>"3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>
>that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
>
>recently found evidence of in the archives."
>
I'm betting that it's either an unsourced claim from Garrison himself,
or some crackpot "informant" who gave the account to the Garrison
investigation.
But of course Matt can easily prove me wrong. All he has to do is
post the document!
If he fails to do that, the obvious inference is that I'm right.
John McAdams
>>"Magic Bullet" magic...@octa4.net.au
>
>>Firstly, clarification. Is the reference to DF's >girlfriends and JM's
>boyfriends accurrate -
>>or was it meant to be the other way around?
>
> No, it's accurate. Everyone thinks Ferrie was a strict
>homosexual. Apparently
>he wasn't. And that
>is something I had only heard from her until I dug it up in the archives.
>
And what exactly did you find at the Archives to support that claim?
>>Why did LHO need to actually work at Reily's in
>order to be a courier for the
>material described?
>Would it not have been wiser to use someone
>>unconnected with that company?
>
> Oswald only worked for Reily till July 19th, 1963.
>He had no job again until he was hired on at the
>Depository in mid-October.
>It was after he left Reily that his most bizarre actions
>took place; the ones
>that seemed to deliberately portray him as a commie.
>
>>How did he expect to smuggle the material
>>into Cuba?
>
> I have no idea. I do know that along with his suitcase
>he took a small blue
>bag that he kept
>with himself at all times, and refused to let it
>be stowed by the bus driver.
>
So he was just going to fly to Havana, get an audience with Castro,
and stick some needle his arm, right?
>>Is the inference to be drawn that the indivual
>waving a gun around in the
>>embassy was in fact LHO?
>>And the same for the embassy phone calls?
>
> I'm afraid I can only offer an opinion here. There
>is no doubt Oz was in Mexico, but to me, also no doubt
>that there was also some
>impersonating
>occuring also. Sorry that sounds confusing, but
>it seems that this whole thing *is* confusing.
It's "confusing" because it doesn't make any sense.
If the plan was to get Oswald into Cuba, why have somebody impersonate
him, if the *real* Lee Oswald was the fellow who was supposed to get
into Cuba and stick a needle into Castro?
John McAdams
>Matt,
>
>This is exactly as Lifton described: she takes some known names and
>facts and elaborates and weaves them into her stories/lies.
>
>All this stuff is strictly Buff Logic 101, starting with Oswald as a
>secret agent in the Soviet Union.
>
>This is a smart woman and well able to pick this stuff up from the
>common run of conspiracy novels.
>
At the 1993 Midwest Conference Paul Hoch presented a very interesting
talk. I saw it, and Marquette's library has the tapes. I think Dave
Starks would *still* sell the tapes to anyone who wants them.
One of his observations was:
<quote on>
"Anyone who spends time in the FBI files develops his own filters
for detecting probable junk.... I suspect that a useful measure of
the plausibility of an allegation could be derived from the percentage
of well-known names. If a source claims to have met with David
Ferrie, Allen Dulles, and Fidel Castro in Jack Ruby's nightclub, I'll
go on to the next document. Any post-Garrison story with Clay Shaw in
it starts with a heavy burden of skepticism to overcome. I now put
Roscoe White in the same category."
<quote off>
It seems that Judyth fails this test.
--
John McAdams
Let me put back the text that Martin is responding to, but snipped
out:
<Quote>
>She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
>they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
>according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
>infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities
This version of her hiring at Reily conflicts with the version in
Salon mag. The Salon writer said Judyth wrote her a "long, Gothic
letter" in which she said Oswald got her the job at Reily and she was
fired after Oswald was arrested for his hands-off Cuba activities
because she had been seen with him.
<Quote off>
>JGL,
>
> I wonder how many other opinions you would feel comfortable basing
>on a gossip column and a researcher who argues that JFK's body and the
>Zapruder film were both forgeries.
>
Yep, Martin has to attack Lifton and Amy Reiter.
Will you attack Paul Hoch too?
Look, Martin . . . you have told us all that the salon.com stuff is
"inaccurate." That explanation doesn't cut it.
It's clear what's happened. Judyth has herself been changing her
story. She told Reiter one thing, and she's told other "researchers"
different things.
Good catch, John Leyden!
.John
John McAdams
"Phillips" directing a JFK assassination murder plot?
>She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
>they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
>according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
>infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities. Oswald
>was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
>speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
>was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
>could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
>about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
>Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
>he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
>a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
>killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
>for awhile.
>
--
John McAdams
>
>Incredible!
>
>This is what all his hokey-pokey was
>> about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
>> Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above.
>
>Here is where it gets good. Here is where the story bursts all limits
>of credibility!
>
>We know there were meetings with Cubela around this time. Of course,
>they could have given 'it' to him.
>
>And we know that Dave Phillips parachuted into Cuba around this time.
>Or at least some of us did.
>
>And there were regular supply runs - by air and sea.
>
>But, you guys have Ozzie going down on a bus??
>
>ROFLMAO!
>
Given the amount that is known about plots against Castro, it's
extremely hard to believe that this one miraculously would have
remained secret through the Church Committee and other investigations
that turned up tons of stuff embarrassing to the CIA.
> When
>> he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
>> a short shelf life.
>
>I guess the dry ice he would have been carrying the material in had
>melted on that long, long, long trip down and all those pointless days.
>
>Geez they didn't even have the forethought to supply him with pics!
>
>Or a letter of referral by somebody in good standing with the
>Revolution!
>
>So, this great intel agency didn't foresee that Ozzie wouldn't be able
>to get a visa??
>
>Is this how you think infiltration is carried out?????????????????????
>
Apparently Judyth does :-).
>This is an incredible story in which a few germs of truth are padded
>with known names and standard buff themes to make an oliomargerine that
>is putrid on arrival!
>
>Matt, I'll tell you, buddy-to-buddy; this ain't gonna fly!
>
Apparently is *is* flying, but only with the sort of people who
believe Beverly Oliver, and Jean Hill, and Perry Raymond Russo.
.John
mshack
And you know it's not going to be dribbled out on demand.
So have a little patience.
Paul Hoch wasn't talking about cases where there was documentation.
mshack
I have my pay stubs from 38 years ago. I have been contemplating the
exploitation of my relationship with the Denver Public Schools right
from the start!!
Some people routinely save their financial records, Jer.
Writings of Oswald? Fruitless speculation based on no information. Wait
until you can speak with some knowledge.
There are other forms of corroboration besides the printed record--there
are unpublished materials, other witnesses, etc.
You certainly are suddenly an "expert" on a great many things--a
"cancer" expert who has trouble spelling the word; an expert on Oswald's
mood and love life in the summer of 1963 (been talking with Lee, Jer?);
Having a good time rolling on the floor, flaunting your ignorance?
mshack
Matt would have identified the person if the person had given
permission for him to do so. At present, that is not the case.
mshack
And, no, it's not.
Debra Hartman
had "writings of Oswald". Now you are saying this is "fruitless
speculation"? Tell me, which is it? Does she have "writings of
Oswald" or not? To the average person, this would mean that she had
something *original*, actually written by Oswald; moreover, it would
imply (since it is being presented as support for *her* story), that
it is something that has not been seen before *and* relates to her.
If it is simply something that she got at Reilly Coffee Co. that does
not relate to her, it would not prove any more than her pay
stubs--i.e. that she worked there.
Are you and Matt in disagreement on this point? Please clarify.
Also, I cannot imagine why the person who confirmed that Ms. Baker
knew something that only "5 people in the world know" would not want
to be identified. You and Matt are being left to swing in the wind
here.
Surely you must be aware that the account that has been posted here
would raise the eyebrows of all but the most wild-eyed conspiracy
theorists, and I have not seen either of you in that light in the
past.
If there is someone who can really confirm at least the Oswald
relationship part of the story, why not identify that person; or,
alternatively, why does that person not identify himself/herself? If
Ms. Baker's story is true (and, absent a confirmation by someone in a
position to know unique information that only "5 people in the world"
would know, I have seen nothing yet to convince me that it is; on the
other hand, I have learned a great deal to convince me that it is not,
even ignoring the far-fetched aspects of the story), then it should be
running on CNN around the clock. It would be real *news*, and such
news reports would only *enhance* Baker's publishing and other media
opportunities..
I really cannot see any reason for an embargo on *news*. Embargos are
almost always done on information that has been fully investigated,
and either commercial publication or broadcast is eminent. I see no
signs that is the case. It appears that there is still investigation
going on. That implies that there are questions which are
unresolved. You have given no date for a broadcast or a publication.
I must conclude that is because there is none.
My scepticism is not based on anything written here by McAdams and Co.
Nothing they could say would be persuasive to me in the least--the
fantastic scenarios proposed in the debunkery rival the account
attributed to Ms. Baker, and one must always consider the record of
these partisans.
My opinion is based on an independent knowledge of Ms. Baker's
conversations with someone who has yet publicly to tell of his
experiences with her. It is also based on e-mails she wrote to other
persons knowledgeable of the documentary record re Oswald and those
close to him. It is my understanding that all of these contacts were
initiated by Ms. Baker, and PRECEDED your own contacts with her. I am
afraid that your assertion that her story has not changed over time is
very much in question. I am not implying that you had anything to do
with the changes in her story--in fact, I think I know exactly who
did, and he is a highly intelligent and well-intentioned person whose
affect was *exactly the opposite* of what he intended-- but it is my
informed belief that you do not have her earliest account. Because of
the nature of the contacts, I believe they can be documented as to
chronology.
I urge you to persuade the person you are relying on to confirm the
most important aspect of Ms. Baker's story--a unique knowledge of
Oswald that can nail down an intimate association--to go ON THE
RECORD. If that is not forthcoming, I must conclude that some people
are playing a very old and shopworn game.
I am now convinced that there is information which is potentially
devastating not only to Ms. Baker, but to those honest persons like
yourself who sincerely believe her and, even more importantly, to the
historical record in the case. Every time a false account contrary to
the "official story" is presented *and found to be false" the interest
of the American people is DIVERTED from the historical facts which
have continued to mount re a conspiracy to assassinate President
Kennedy. This is counter to the interest of anyone who wants the full
truth to out in this case. Ultimately, the best interest of the
American people may be lost altogether.
The matter should end. It Baker's story is true, you can document
the most basic information--that this woman was indeed an intimate of
Oswald-- and she can still have her book and movie deals. As noted
above, *they would be enhanced*. If it is not true, it needs to be
put to bed without further ado about nothing.
mshack
sudden interest in seeing the documentation.
It will all come out together, not piecemeal.
Judyth has writings by Oswald. Matt and I are in no disagreement on
that.
What Matt posted was essentially a list of fragments, and that led to
some confusion. It isn't going to be corrected at present by dumping
more information onto the newsgroup, as I've said many times.
Neither Matt nor I can decide whether someone else wants their name
flashed in public at present. If that creates a problem for us, so be
it. Ultimately, it won't.
Meanwhile, having agreed to confidentiality prior to the full account
going public, I don't intend to violate that, uncomfortable or not.
Debra Hartman
>What I'm saying, Debra, is that we're not going to respond to Lifton's
>sudden interest in seeing the documentation.
>It will all come out together, not piecemeal.
>Judyth has writings by Oswald.
I'm genuinely sorry to hear that, Martin. It is my understanding
that, prior to more recent contacts with her, she did not.
>Matt and I are in no disagreement on
>that.
>What Matt posted was essentially a list of fragments, and that led to
>some confusion. It isn't going to be corrected at present by dumping
>more information onto the newsgroup, as I've said many times.
I didn't ask for a "dump" of information. I asked that you identify
the source for the most important piece of corroboration for her story
that has been posted here. The answer is two words. A first and a
last name.
>Neither Matt nor I can decide whether someone else wants their name
>flashed in public at present. If that creates a problem for us, so be
>it.
If the person does not want their name "flashed", then there is either
doubt, or the person has something to lose by association with this
story. I don't know what other conclusion to draw.
> Ultimately, it won't.
I don't know what "ultimately" means, since you did not give a date
for a broadcast or a publication. I assume my conclusion re that was
correct.
>Meanwhile, having agreed to confidentiality prior to the full account
>going public, I don't intend to violate that, uncomfortable or not.
You have managed to avoid my points re Ms. Baker's earlier versions,
which are at odds with what has now been described. Whether you want
to address it here or not, you should be aware that is the case.
There are some important issues at stake here, which you have also not
addressed. I hope you address them internally, if not here.
The problem would not exist if *some* information had not already
escaped the "confidentiality agreement". Since Ms. Baker has not been
confidential at all, was it she who initiated the "confidentiality
agreement", or was it someone else?
Good luck, Martin. I have a feeling you are going to need a lot of it
to get through this.
Altasrecrd
(snipped)
y'all might find this hard to believe, but what
Deb says is true.
That's why I posted what I knew.
It's either history or it isn't.
joez...@my-deja.com
altas...@aol.com (Altasrecrd) wrote:
> >"Magic Bullet" magic...@octa4.net.au
>
> >Firstly, clarification. Is the reference to DF's >girlfriends and
JM's
> boyfriends accurrate -
> >or was it meant to be the other way around?
>
> No, it's accurate. Everyone thinks Ferrie was a strict homosexual.
Apparently
> he wasn't. And that
> is something I had only heard from her until I dug it up in the
archives.
>
courier for the
> material described? >Would it not have been wiser to use someone
> >unconnected with that company?
>
> Oswald only worked for Reily till July 19th, 1963.
> He had no job again until he was hired on at the
> Depository in mid-October.
> It was after he left Reily that his most bizarre actions took place;
the ones
> that seemed to deliberately portray him as a commie.
Sure. His defection to Russia, for one. Right?
His letter to his brother stating he would shoot any American -- any
American -- in defense of his new homeland.
Stuff like that only happened after he left Reilly.
Right?
>
> >How did he expect to smuggle the material
> >into Cuba?
>
> I have no idea. I do know that along with his suitcase he took a
small blue
> bag that he kept
> with himself at all times, and refused to let it
> be stowed by the bus driver.
>
> >Is the inference to be drawn that the indivual >waving a gun around
in the
> >embassy was in fact LHO?
> >And the same for the embassy phone calls?
>
> I'm afraid I can only offer an opinion here. There
> is no doubt Oz was in Mexico, but to me, also no doubt that there was
also some
> impersonating
> occuring also. Sorry that sounds confusing, but
> it seems that this whole thing *is* confusing.
>
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
joez...@my-deja.com
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
> obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
> Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
> I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
> SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
> that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
> no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
> at this point.
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
> 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
> writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
Validated both how, precisely?
>
> 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
> Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
> been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
> of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
What's that 'obscure' mean herein? That it doesn't say so directly, but
you 'interpreted' it that way?
>
> 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
> that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
> recently found evidence of in the archives.
Citation?
>
> 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
> ( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
> ( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
> "Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
> ( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
> jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
> nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
> me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
> have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
> I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
> just skyrocketed."
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
> Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
> and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
> outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
> free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
> high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
> working for Reily.
Makes her about 18?
> Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
> for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
> as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
Please document your cancer research prodigy claims.
> Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
> He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
> was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll
remember was
> connected with the government in helping
> "with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
> this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
> that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
> cancer. And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix.
So why, precisely, did she work at Reilly?
> Miss
> Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
> cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab)
Really? Citation?
>and
> was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
> that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
> induced it in mice.
> She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
She lived in the same area as Oswald?
> I've seen where
> they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
> according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
> infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
"Right wing infested" Reilly sells coffee and food products and appears
to be a legitimate New Orleans business, in business still:
http://stores.yahoo.com/reilyfoods/
Or is this part of the CIA cover?
>Oswald
> was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
> speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
> was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
> could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
> about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
> Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
> he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
> a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
> killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
Sure. Makes sense to you, no doubt.
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
> for awhile.
>
>
--
John McAdams
>
> I've seen them and have high resolution color copies, John. I don't take
> people's word for documentation. I look at the documentation.
Good!
Do the documents actually tie Oswald to Judyth?
Have they been examined by a questioned documents expert?
>
> And, by the way, John--the evidence ISN'T in the mail, so don't hold your
> breath or alert your carrier.
>
"Your evidence is in the mail" is a sarcastic figure of speech, Martin.
John McAdams
>
> Still trying to apply the "Paul Hoch test," I see, John.
> Kind of a poor substitute for real thinking, isn't it?
>
No, believing crackpot "witnesses" is a substitute for real thinking.
John McAdams
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
>obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
>Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
>I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
> SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
>that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
>no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
>at this point.
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
>1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
>writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
>
>2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
>Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
>been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
>of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
>
>3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
>recently found evidence of in the archives.
>
>4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
>( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
>( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
>"Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
>( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
>jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
>nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
>me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
>have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
>I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
>just skyrocketed."
>
>
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
>Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
>and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
>outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
>free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
>high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
>working for Reily.
> Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
>for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
>as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
>Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
>He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
>was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll remember was
>connected with the government in helping
>"with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
>this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
>that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
>cancer. And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix. Miss
>Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
>cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab) and
>was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
>that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
>induced it in mice.
>She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
>they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
>according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
>infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities. Oswald
>was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
>speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
>was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
>could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
>about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
>Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
>he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
>a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
>killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
>for awhile.
>
Matt,
How many of the following names show up in her story?
Jack Ruby
David Ferrie
Carlos Quiroga
Clay Shaw
Guy Banister
Ed Butler
Roscoe White
And is the supposed "Clinton / Jackson episode" part of her story?
mshack
The cancer research background is documented VERY fully.
John McAdams
>What I'm saying, Debra, is that we're not going to respond to Lifton's
>sudden interest in seeing the documentation.
OIC. Only Lifton is interested in seeing documentation. And you
don't like him.
You don't think anybody *else* would be?
>It will all come out together, not piecemeal.
>Judyth has writings by Oswald. Matt and I are in no disagreement on
>that.
You refused to answer my question as to whether they have been
examined by a questioned documents expert.
Don't you see your double standard? You tout certain "evidence" as
proof that her story is solid, but then you stonewall when asked about
the authenticity of the evidence.
If they have been examined by a questioned documents expert, and shown
to be written by Oswald, and if they explicitly involve Judyth, then
you have something.
But you stonewall.
>What Matt posted was essentially a list of fragments, and that led to
>some confusion. It isn't going to be corrected at present by dumping
>more information onto the newsgroup, as I've said many times.
>Neither Matt nor I can decide whether someone else wants their name
>flashed in public at present. If that creates a problem for us, so be
>it. Ultimately, it won't.
Why not ask the person?
>Meanwhile, having agreed to confidentiality prior to the full account
>going public, I don't intend to violate that, uncomfortable or not.
>
But you already *have* let out a lot of information. And made a lot
of claims for the veracity of her account.
You do that, but then when challenged, you clam up and talk about
"confidentiality."
John McAdams
Hartman) wrote:
>On 22 Oct 2000 08:30:44 GMT, mshack <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>>What I'm saying, Debra, is that we're not going to respond to Lifton's
>>sudden interest in seeing the documentation.
>>It will all come out together, not piecemeal.
>>Judyth has writings by Oswald.
>
>I'm genuinely sorry to hear that, Martin. It is my understanding
>that, prior to more recent contacts with her, she did not.
>
Perhaps Martin would explain whether he has actually *seen* these
"writings by Oswald," or is simply taking Judyth's word that they
exist.
John McAdams
>"It seems" that you haven't seen the evidence, John.
>And you know it's not going to be dribbled out on demand.
>So have a little patience.
>Paul Hoch wasn't talking about cases where there was documentation.
>
But there isn't any "documentation" supporting Judyth.
Just a promise from her supporters that it exists. But they won't say
what it is, or why they think it's authentic.
"You evidence is in the mail" is their motto.
.John
mshack
Kind of a poor substitute for real thinking, isn't it?
Martin
mshack
You have a positive gift for intentional misinterpretation.
You know very well that I was referring to Lifton's total lack of
interest in the documentation when he called Judyth--and his sudden
interest in it now that he is on the attack, and is beginning to wonder if
perhaps he screwed up. He will get no aid and comfort here.
I am sure that others are interested in the documentation. Even you
yourself have shown some curiosity along those lines. As I've said many
times before, you'll see it when everyone else does. Stop pushing.
I haven't refused to answer "your question." I've refused to answer
ANY of your questions until this all goes public.
There's no double standard about waiting until something is published
before getting into a detailed discussion of it. You know this is a
bullshit argument, John, and yet you keep making it. If you think I'm
"stonewalling" John, feel free to think that. After all, it's your fantasy
life, not mine.
And once again you make the silly and utterly false claim that I've
"already...let out a lot of information." I've "let out" almost none.
Given it's inaccuracy, neither has Lifton. Aside from Matt's post, there
has been no premature release--nor will there be.
Learn to live with it.
mshack
people's word for documentation. I look at the documentation.
And, by the way, John--the evidence ISN'T in the mail, so don't hold your
breath or alert your carrier.
You'll see it when everyone else does.
art guerrilla
marty partied-
> You have a positive gift for intentional misinterpretation.
i.e. disinfo, that is the only conclusion one
can finally get to...
...eye don't think many of us *really* think
mcmadam is *that* stupid, which leaves
the only other plausible explanation: that
he (and ilk) purposefully engage in such
obvious, childish and despicable disinfo
tactics either out of some compulsion to
make sick sport, or a continuing misguided
effort to 'protect' amerika from the truth...
...the one alternative is pitiful, the other is
outrageous...
pee ess THANK YOU martin et al for the
headsup on this issue, it has almost been
more interesting to see the scuttling and
scurrying of the ell enn ers as it has to
see the original claims...
(...not to mention a few sea tea ers aghast
hee hee hee)
...because you have been nice enough to
share these tantalizing scenarios with us
does not mean you are obligated to
release anything and everything you
have learned to this point, but eye hope it
all does come out in the wash sooner than
later...
ann vote-nader-or-tease archy
eof
joez...@my-deja.com
one of them mean the others are not documented?
And where is the cancer research background documented?
In article <39F4F2...@concentric.net>,
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
In article <20001020155414...@ng-bh1.aol.com>,
atlas...@aol.com (Atlasrecrd) wrote:
>
> As I'm told Reitzes has unsuccessfully been trying to
> obtain this story for himself and McAdams from poor
> Ms. Baker herself, and since Lifton won't pony up any details,
> I will, and you can make your own judgements.
>
> SInce the story is already being debated here, it is only fair
> that everyone get a chance at forming an opinion. After all,
> no one person has the right to keep something like this secret
> at this point.
>
> First, a few reasons I decided to check her story out:
>
> 1. She has her Reily pay stubs. I've seen them. She has
> writings of Oswald's. I've seen these also.
Validated both how, precisely?
>
> 2. She told me things about David Ferrie's girlfriends and
> Jack Martin's boyfriends that to my knowledge have never
> been printed anywhere. I only recently found obscure mention
> of it when digging thru stuff at the archives.
What's that 'obscure' mean herein? That it doesn't say so directly, but
you 'interpreted' it that way?
>
> 3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
> that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
> recently found evidence of in the archives.
Citation?
>
> 4. ( ) asked Judyth a very particular question after she told
> ( ) that Oz had read to her from THE QUEEN OF SPADES.
> ( ) straightened up, looked her in the eye, and said,
> "Describe what it was he read to you from." So she did. Then
> ( ) said, "What color was it?" Judyth said, "Gray." ( )'s
> jaw literally dropped and replied, "That information is
> nowhere to be found. The only people who know that are
> me, Ruth Paine, and Marina Oswald. Only five people could
> have known about it." "I know you were there with Lee Oswald.
> I know you were intimate with him, and your credibility has
> just skyrocketed."
>
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
> Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
> and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
> outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
> free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
> high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
> working for Reily.
Makes her about 18?
> Why would a cancer research prodigy move to N.O. to work
> for a coffee company, you ask? Good question. Judy worked
> as an assistant to William Monaghan at Reily.
Please document your cancer research prodigy claims.
> Monoghan was a former FBI agent and a big shot in INCA.
> He was also close to INCA's head Dr. Alton Ochsner. Ochsner
> was familiar with this young prodigy's work. And Ochsner you'll
remember was
> connected with the government in helping
> "with the medical side of subversive activities". In 1963
> this meant trying to kill Castro. Ochsner was part of a group
> that was trying to figure out a way to kill Castro with lung
> cancer. And this is where Miss Vary came into the mix.
So why, precisely, did she work at Reilly?
> Miss
> Vary had quite a reputation for her work with lung cancer
> cells (which are apparently the easiest to grow in a lab)
Really? Citation?
>and
> was brought to N.O. not to shuffle papers but for a project
> that would try to induce cancer in a human the same way she
> induced it in mice.
> She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily.
She lived in the same area as Oswald?
> I've seen where
> they both lived. They were both hired on the same day, and
> according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
> infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities.
"Right wing infested" Reilly sells coffee and food products and appears
to be a legitimate New Orleans business, in business still:
http://stores.yahoo.com/reilyfoods/
Or is this part of the CIA cover?
>Oswald
> was run by one of the intelligence agencies, she can only
> speculate which. After his bogus defection from Russia he
> was keeping his commie bona-fides intact in order that he
> could be used in Cuba. This is what all his hokey-pokey was
> about that summer. His trip to Mexico City was to get into
> Cuba and deliver the biological weapon described above. When
> he couldn't get in right away, he freaked, as the materials had
> a short shelf life. He had been told that if Castro couldn't be
> killed, then Kennedy would end up having to be.
Sure. Makes sense to you, no doubt.
>
> There is more but I suspect that's enough to chew on
> for awhile.
>
>
--
joez...@my-deja.com
>
> The cancer research background is documented VERY fully.
It appears you're contradicting yourself.
You said elsewhere that Walter Reed Hospital has nothing to do with
this.
But the original poster claimed:
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
>Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
>and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
>outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
>free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
>high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
>working for Reily.
So is the Walter Reed claim above documented very fully, or not?
>
> Martin
> --
> Martin Shackelford
>
> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by
those
> who have not got it." ---George Bernard Shaw
>
--
The Great Unwashed
> >
> > The cancer research background is documented VERY fully.
>
>
> You said elsewhere that Walter Reed Hospital has nothing to do with
> this.
>
> But the original poster claimed:
>
> > Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
> >Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
> >and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
> >outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
> >free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
> >high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
> >working for Reily.
>
> So is the Walter Reed claim above documented very fully, or not?
>
>
It is.
JR
Joe Riehl
says...
> On 21 Oct 2000 07:16:54 GMT, mshack <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> Let me put back the text that Martin is responding to, but snipped
> out:
>
> <Quote>
>
> >She and Oswald rode the same bus to Reily. I've seen where
> >according to her, both of them were hired by the right-wing
> >infested Reily merely as a cover for their activities
>
> Salon mag. The Salon writer said Judyth wrote her a "long, Gothic
> letter" in which she said Oswald got her the job at Reily and she was
> fired after Oswald was arrested for his hands-off Cuba activities
> because she had been seen with him.
>
There is no conflict. Both positions were advertised in the local paper at
the same time.
JR
mshack
joez...@my-deja.com
In article <39F65D...@concentric.net>,
In article <39F4F2...@concentric.net>,
msh...@concentric.net wrote:
> Joe,
>
> The cancer research background is documented VERY fully.
It appears you're contradicting yourself.
You said elsewhere that Walter Reed Hospital has nothing to do with
this.
But the original poster claimed:
> Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
>Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
>and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
>outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
>free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
>high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
>working for Reily.
So is the Walter Reed claim above documented very fully, or not?
>
> Martin
> --
> Martin Shackelford
>
> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by
those
> who have not got it." ---George Bernard Shaw
>
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
--
"We're really in nut country now, Toto."
joez...@my-deja.com
The Great Unwashed <gu@new_times.net> wrote:
> In article <8t4p5h$mv2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, joez...@my-deja.com
says...
> > >
> > > The cancer research background is documented VERY fully.
> >
> >
> > You said elsewhere that Walter Reed Hospital has nothing to do with
> > this.
> >
> > But the original poster claimed:
> >
> > > Before she married a Mormon fellow by the name of Robert
> > >Baker, Judyth was Judy Vary. She was child science prodigy,
> > >and was doing cancer research in high school that was so
> > >outstanding that doctors from Walter Reed were sending her
> > >free chemicals to experiment with. She moved right after
> > >high school to New Orleans in the spring of '63 and began
> > >working for Reily.
> >
> > So is the Walter Reed claim above documented very fully, or not?
> >
> >
>
>
> JR
Where? How?
John McAdams
>
> I've seen them and have high resolution color copies, John. I don't take
> people's word for documentation. I look at the documentation.
>
> And, by the way, John--the evidence ISN'T in the mail, so don't hold your
> breath or alert your carrier.
>
> You'll see it when everyone else does.
>
I don't see the answer to my question as to whether a questioned
documents expert has seen the documents.
If somebody claims to have "explosive" new evidence in the Kennedy
murder, evidence that will radically change the way we view the event,
isn't the *first* thing you do checking out whether the "documents" are
authentic?
You remember the whole Roscoe White business, right?
And if you can reveal that "she has documents" and that "I have color
copies of the documents" can't you reveal whether a questioned documents
expert has examined the "documents?"
John McAdams
>
> John,
>
> You have a positive gift for intentional misinterpretation.
> You know very well that I was referring to Lifton's total lack of
> interest in the documentation when he called Judyth--and his sudden
> interest in it now that he is on the attack, and is beginning to wonder if
> perhaps he screwed up. He will get no aid and comfort here.
Gosh, Martin, if you want to make David Lifton look really bad, the best
way to do so would be to release documents showing that Judyth really
has something.
And you would produce *great* publicity that should help her land a book
contract.
Certainly, a report from a reputable questioned documents expert saying
that these supposed documents tying Judyth to Lee Oswald are authentic
would be dynamite in dealing with publishers, wouldn't it?
> I am sure that others are interested in the documentation. Even you
> yourself have shown some curiosity along those lines. As I've said many
> times before, you'll see it when everyone else does. Stop pushing.
> I haven't refused to answer "your question." I've refused to answer
> ANY of your questions until this all goes public.
No, in fact you've answered questions when it served your purposed, and
then stonewalled when pressed to support your assertions.
> There's no double standard about waiting until something is published
> before getting into a detailed discussion of it. You know this is a
> bullshit argument, John, and yet you keep making it. If you think I'm
> "stonewalling" John, feel free to think that. After all, it's your fantasy
> life, not mine.
> And once again you make the silly and utterly false claim that I've
> "already...let out a lot of information." I've "let out" almost none.
> Given it's inaccuracy, neither has Lifton. Aside from Matt's post, there
> has been no premature release--nor will there be.
> Learn to live with it.
>
You've posted numerous elements of her story, and Matt has let out a lot
more.
bill...@my-deja.com
digde...@aol.comoc.loa (art guerrilla) wrote:
>
> marty partied-
>
> > You have a positive gift for intentional misinterpretation.
>
EYEE, IT WILL ALL COME OUT IN THE COSMIC
WASH, SOONER THAN LATER, AS ALL GUILTY
PARTIES SHOULD LOOK OVER THEIR SHOULDERS,
AND BE PARANOID AS SHIT. THE TRUTH WILL OUT.
BK-HIKOUYOU-
JLeyden900
>From: John McAdams <john.m...@marquette.edu>
>Date: Wed, Oct 25, 2000 22:48 EDT
>Message-id: <39F79B...@marquette.edu>
And remember how Sy Hersh, one of the most hard-nosed reporters out there, was
taken in by phony documents purporting to show a JFK-Marilyn Monroe link when
writing "The Dark Side of Camelot." Sy wanted to believe so he believed. It
took a cynical ABC news staff to save his butt.
JGL
mshack
John? A statement like that just shows how LITTLE you really know about
Judyth's account. And PERHAPS the reason you don't see an answer to your
question is that, as I've been saying for many days not, I won't be
answering any more questions pre-publication. THAT you can take seriously.
mshack
story." Until you and Lifton went apeshit, I had only mentioned two small
details, and had made no mention of Judyth.
bobwh...@my-deja.com
who steal the letter, once they find out it's on its way:
http://members.truepath.com/overkill/specialgroup
but it's too late for that now
Jerry
The Special Group was a part of the National Security Council - set up
to serve the president by tasking/ coordinating his policies.
Jerry
In article <8t9npl$oq2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
jpsh...@my-deja.com
msh...@concentric.net wrote:
> Gosh, John, it's still not true that I've posted "numerous elements
of her
> story." Until you and Lifton went apeshit, I had only mentioned two
small
> details, and had made no mention of Judyth.
This is what I remember:
1. Oswald knew Ferrie in 1963 and spoke of knowing him in the CAP
in the fifties.
2. That Clay Shaw was involved with Oswald (and Ferrie?) in a
project that didn't involve the assassination of JFK.
3. There was a pull-down staircase connecting Banister's first
floor office with the second floor of the Newman Building.
4. Mrs. David Lewis corroborated some aspects of the story.
5. Something about Garrison's mistress. (Mary Sherman?)
>
> Martin
> --
> Martin Shackelford
>
> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by
those
> who have not got it." ---George Bernard Shaw
>
>
Jerry Shinley
John McAdams
>Who's claiming to have "explosive new evidence in the Kennedy murder,"
>John? A statement like that just shows how LITTLE you really know about
>Judyth's account. And PERHAPS the reason you don't see an answer to your
>question is that, as I've been saying for many days not, I won't be
>answering any more questions pre-publication. THAT you can take seriously.
>
Let me see if I understand this, Martin:
Here is a woman who can positively link Oswald and Ferrie.
Here is a woman who knows for a fact that Oswald staged a "fake
defection" to the USSR.
Here is a woman who knows that Oswald's *real* purpose in going to
Mexico City was to get into Cuba and give cancer to Fidel Castro?
And you don't consider that "explosive?"
.John
The Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
mshack
1) Two were based on Judyth's account.
2) One came from two different sources.
3) One was from a post by someone else.
4) One wasn't based on Judyth's account, but on other sources.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those
who have not got it." ---George Bernard Shaw
jpsh...@my-deja.com
you did say that he had "a rather interesting one."
I also forgot some stuff:
1. The witness saw the Tannenbaum film, with LHO and Ferrie.
2. There's a published photograph showing the witness and Oswald.
3. It's well documented that the witness worked at Reily coffee
when Oswald did.
<state quote>
http://x52.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=592535948
Subject: Re: Oswald and the conspirators
Date: 03/03/2000
Author: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Oswald, on the other hand, remembered Ferrie very well, and talked
about him to friends. He resumed their acquaintance in the summer of
1963 and they worked together on a few things. Shaw was involved with
them, but only very peripherally, and none of them were planning to
assassinate Kennedy.
Martin
http://x62.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=628886977
Subject: Re: Why 544 Camp?
Date: 05/30/2000
Author: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
The stairs were the pull-down kind.
They came down into Banister's private office. He kept files in the
office above. The wife of David Lewis and another witness both confirm
the stairs.
Martin
http://x62.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=619323660
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 05/04/2000
Author: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Correction:
A second witness reports having seen the film mentioned by Tanenbaum,
or one similar to it, but hasn't yet gone public.
Martin
http://x62.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=619470223
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 05/05/2000
Author: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Bill:
The witness was shown the film by David Ferrie in Oswald's
presence in 1963. The former wife of David Lewis, a sometime Banister
employee, has confirmed (in a filmed interview), the relationship
between the witness and Oswald, having seen them together on numerous
occasions that summer, outside of work (the two worked together at
Reily Co., a fact which is well documented). At this point, that's
about all I can say--and I was just given the OK by the witness to say
that much.
Expect more information on this and related matters sometime in
the not-too-distant future. This new evidence contains both familiar
elements, and some major surprises for a variety of viewpoints in this
case. Very exciting stuff!
Martin
http://x64.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=634708965
Subject: Re: Question for Garrison Defenders
Date: 06/14/2000
Author: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Garrison did have a mistress, and a rather interesting one.
The witness I mentioned knows who it was, and some related details.
This is some of the material that I imagine you will find most
interesting, Dave, when it can be discussed in more detail. .
Martin
http://x57.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=624384041
Subject: Re: Group Consensus--LHO in N.O.
Date: 05/17/2000
Author: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Joe:
A published photograph shows the witness in Oswald's presence
(closer than Ferrie is to Oswald in the CAP photo).
Documents verify the witness began working at Reily, and
stopped working at Reily, at approximately the same time as Oswald.
There is other documentation, but that's about all I can say
at the moment.
Martin
<end quote>
Jerry Shinley
In article <39FBE2...@concentric.net>,
mshack
something similar.
A published photo may show the witness and Oswald. There is no question
that the witness and Oswald worked at the Reily Co. during the same time
period.
John McAdams
wrote:
>On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 22:00:43 GMT, dli...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>>Please do supply archival references for this claim:
>>
>>"3. She told me things about Kerry Thornley wooing Marina
>>
>>that have never been printed anywhere and that I just
>>
>>recently found evidence of in the archives."
>>
>
>I'm betting that it's either an unsourced claim from Garrison himself,
>or some crackpot "informant" who gave the account to the Garrison
>investigation.
>
>But of course Matt can easily prove me wrong. All he has to do is
>post the document!
>
>If he fails to do that, the obvious inference is that I'm right.
>
Well it seems the relevant evidence has *not* been forthcoming.
Martin keeps claiming this will all come out in good time, but when a
part of the story like this comes out, there is *no* reason to refuse
to reveal what supposed "document" supports it.
These are documents in the National Archives. They are not secret
records.
Will somebody from Team Judyth step up and provide support for this?
.John
--