New analysis of bullet fragments.
JER
gunman possible.
Quote:
"This finding means that the bullet fragments from the assassination
that match could have come from three or more separate bullets," the
researchers said. "If the assassination fragments are derived from three
or more separate bullets, then a second assassin is likely," the
researchers said. If the five fragments came from three or more bullets,
that would mean a second gunman's bullet would have had to strike the
president, the researchers explained.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2007/05/16/AR2007051601967.html?hpid=moreheadlines
David Von Pein
that match could have come from three or more separate bullets," the
researchers said."
Total bullshit (of course).
Common sense ALONE (plus a little bit of knowledge about the JFK
ballistics evidence) totally debunk the above hunk of conspiracy-
leaning silliness. Here's why:
================================
Re.: The bullet fragments recovered in the JFK murder case.....
A bullet fragment from Warren Commission Exhibit #843 very likely came
from a WCC/MC bullet, and very likely (per NAA analysis) came from the
same bullet which also deposited fragments under Nellie Connally's
seat
and which deposited the two large fragments in the front seat of the
limo.
And the ONLY possible source of such extensive fragmentation of a
bullet within that limousine was President Kennedy's head.
It's my firm opinion that the NAA analysis of the JFK head fragment(s)
is not even needed to arrive at the obvious conclusion of: Lee Harvey
Oswald's own gun caused JFK's head injuries.
Because, as mentioned, there's NOTHING else that could have caused
Oswald's bullet to break apart in the manner that it did except John
F.
Kennedy's head, with the two largest (and heaviest) of the mangled
bullet fragments ending up to the FRONT of the victim.
Governor John Connally's injuries are positively ruled out as a source
of the front-seat fragments. This is because of the existence of
bullet
CE399 (found in the hospital where Connally was taken) and the fact
that Connally was struck by just ONE single bullet (per his doctors'
comments on this matter, plus the fact that if he were hit by multiple
bullets that were fragmenting badly within him....then WHERE in the
world are those fragments inside JBC's body? They aren't there.
Only a microscopic amount of lead (less than the weight of a "postage
stamp", per Dr. Gregory) was deposited in John Connally's body during
the shooting. It's silly to think that TWO or more bullets left only
this minuscule amount of lead and trace evidence behind in wake of the
shooting.
This fact also tends to buttress the Single-Bullet Theory and the
notion that Bullet #CE399 was certainly the bullet that left only very
minimal lead deposits behind in JBC's whole body (with a mere 2 grains
{approx.} missing from CE399's total mass).
Of course, all CTers enjoy trashing Dr. Guinn's analysis and his HSCA
testimony, as the conspiracists consider Guinn's 1978 analysis to be
completely outdated. But what I'd like to know is this.....
Just exactly how likely (odds-wise) is it that Dr. Vincent P. Guinn
would testify to the effect that TWO specific bullets (that both very
likely came from the barrel of Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, via
Guinn's NAA results) were the only two bullets that can be linked to
any of the ballistics samples in the John Kennedy murder case....and
yet still NOT have Oswald's Carcano doing all of the damage to the
victims on November 22nd, 1963?
Even via 1970s-era NAA technology, what are the odds that Guinn's data
would end up revealing the likelihood that ONLY BULLETS FROM OSWALD'S
RIFLE STRUCK ANY VICTIMS ON 11/22/63?
My guess is this -- The odds of that type of scientific evidence
favoring the likelihood that only Oswald's gun was involved in the
assassination, and somehow having that data being totally FALSE, must
be fairly low indeed.
http://google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/e68af2a823062f43
garag...@gmail.com
> ""This finding means that the bullet fragments from the assassination
> that match could have come from three or more separate bullets," the
> researchers said."
>
> Total bullshit (of course).
>
> Common sense ALONE (plus a little bit of knowledge about the JFK
> ballistics evidence) totally debunk the above hunk of conspiracy-
> leaning silliness. Here's why:
>
> ================================
>
> Re.: The bullet fragments recovered in the JFK murder case.....
>
> A bullet fragment from Warren Commission Exhibit #843 very likely came
> from a WCC/MC bullet, and very likely (per NAA analysis) came from the
> same bullet which also deposited fragments under Nellie Connally's
> seat
> and which deposited the two large fragments in the front seat of the
> limo.
You don't know what your talking about. Randich and Grant proved that,
by NAA, you can't even tell the fragments came from Mannlicher Carcano
bullets - all jacketed bullets use the same sort of lead found in MCC
bullets. If Guinn had known anything about metallurgy, which he did
not, he'd never have made so fundamental a blunder as to say that, by
NAA, he could tell the fragments were from MCC shells.
> Governor John Connally's injuries are positively ruled out as a source
> of the front-seat fragments. This is because of the existence of
> bullet
> CE399 (found in the hospital where Connally was taken) and the fact
> that Connally was struck by just ONE single bullet (per his doctors'
> comments on this matter, plus the fact that if he were hit by multiple
> bullets that were fragmenting badly within him....then WHERE in the
> world are those fragments inside JBC's body? They aren't there.
>
You have much more faith in the bona fides of #399 than the FBI does.
As I've elsewhere written:
With the release of the Spiegelman, Tobin, Wexler paper debunking, yet
again, one of the more cherished myths of Warrenistas - namely, that
NAA somehow proves that only two bullets from Oswald's rifle, to the
exclusion of all others, hit their mark in Dealey Plaza - this places
even greater emphasis on the bona fides of the "Magic Bullet,"
Commission Exhibit #399.
Warrenistas have been arguing the absurdity of someone having planted
a bullet that had been shot through Oswald's rifle on a Parkland
Hospital stretcher. But as some of us now see it, the real question is
not whether a Mannlicher Carcano bullet was planted at Parkland, but
whether whatever bullet was picked up at Parkland and passed along to
the FBI lab is the same bullet as is now in evidence as CE #399.
There is good reason to doubt that it is - that is, if you take the
word of the FBI agent, Bardwell Odum, who was supposed to have had the
bullet and passed it around witnesses in Dallas to establish it's
chain of possession sometime in June of 1964. Odum told me and Josiah
Thompson he never had the bullet, never showed any bullet to any
witness in Dallas in '64, etc.
More interestingly, the FBI's own internal records back Odum's version
up: there are no FBI files on #399 (then called "C-1," as an FBI
exhibit before it became a WC exhibit) in which Odum's name appears.
None, whatsoever.
And so the FBI's own internal documents support Bardwell Odum's claim
that, despite an FBI letterhead memo sent to the Warren Commission on
July 7, 1964 saying that witnesses to #399 in Dallas told Odum that
#399 looked like the bullet they saw on 11/22, Odum never had the
bullet; Parkland witnesses never told him they saw a
resemblance.
Tink Thompson and I wrote about this in an essay that has links to
original source documents.
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/EvenMoreMagical/EvenMoreMagical.htm
>
> Just exactly how likely (odds-wise) is it that Dr. Vincent P. Guinn
> would testify to the effect that TWO specific bullets (that both very
> likely came from the barrel of Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, via
> Guinn's NAA results)
There you go again, "via Guinn's (bogus) analysis" did you mean to
say? After all, it's now been debunked twice by people who actually
know what they're talking about, metallurgically and statistically.
Gary
David Von Pein
come to a "TWO BULLETS FROM OSWALD'S RIFLE" conclusion if that
conclusion had actually been dead-wrong?
Even if you think Guinn's analysis is totally flawed (which,
naturally, all CTers do believe), how likely is it that Guinn's FLAWED
DATA would even reveal the above "2 bullets from C2766" info?
A 10% chance?
20%?
5%?
Take a stab at the likelihood.
garag...@gmail.com
David,
Your comment makes it clear you haven't read Randich and Grant and you
haven't read Spiegelman, Tobin, Wexler et all. Until you have, I can't
help you.
But I will give you a hint:
The premise under which Guinn worked was fundamentally flawed -
Mannlicher Carcano lead is not uniquely identifiable because one finds
varying levels of trace components in MCC lead. Period. If he'd been a
metallurgist, or bothered to consult one, Guinn would have known
that. Rahn and Sturdivan didn't really get it, either, but then
neither is a metallurgist and so it may be hard for them.
Now it turns out that, by NAA, real, honest-to-goodness matches
between bullets isn't at all rare. And while Spiegelman et all didn't
explore it, it appears that one could not only get an NAA match
between unrelated MCC bullets, one might also be able to get a "match"
between an MCC bullet and another, non-MCC, jacketed round.
Do your homework, and lets hear back. O.K.?
Gary
Email me and I'll email you back the Randich and Grant paper.
PS At least you've not (yet?) dug in your heels on the bona fides of
#399. But with your unbending faith in the FBI lab, I'm sure you soon
will.
David Von Pein
(i.e., a bullet that certainly wounded both JFK & JBC on 11/22/63).
That's as certain as certain can be (given the known evidence, plus
ordinary common sense, of course...with that latter item rarely
utilized by CTers when attempting to evaluate the SBT, or its
"alternate" theory, which we never, EVER are treated to, of course).
Once again (as my head becomes bloody by the thrashing against the
wall I'm continually subjecting it to) --- COMMON SENSE ALONE proves
that CE399 is the bullet that fell out of John Connally in Parkland
Hospital.
And when coupled with additional factors of common sense, trajectory,
ballistics, logic, and a total lack of ANY other bullets that could
account for any of the non-head wounds sustained by either limo victim
on November 22nd....then the SBT's bullet path completes itself (as we
trace it from the Parkland stretcher FIRST, and extrapolate its flight
backwards in time until it is back inside Oswald's rifle barrel in the
Sniper's Nest).
I think an additional acronym could be used to describe the Single-
Bullet Theory (especially after studying the evidence in the JFK case
for any length of time and coming up dry in the "Anti-SBT Theory"
department) --- The "CST". No, not Central Standard Time (this
time)....it's the "Common Sense Theory". Try it on for size. You'll
see....it fits. And fits ALL of the evidence surrounding it, too.
More.....
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/a7cf61c59d09bc05
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/0b30398a449c05b7
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/c65419db537d4abf
Raymond
In earlier studies of bullet leads from many different manufacturers
it was found that bullets from a given manufacturer and production lot
were generally quite uniform in their Sb and Ag concentrations, both
within a given bullet and amongst bullets from the same box or
production lot. Thus, for such typical ammunition it is generally not
possible to distinguish amongst bullets or bullet fragments from the
same box of cartridges.
However, when analyzed quite a number of Western Cartridge Company
Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 mm bullets ..." this ammunition was found to
differ sharply from typical bullet leads. Although individual bullets
were found to be fairly homogeneous in their Sb and Ag concentrations,
they differed greatly from bullet to bullet amongst samples taken from
the same box.".
Sb and Ag
silver and antimony in bullets
(HSCA, I, p. 511)
Mannlicher-Carcano bullet leads are said to follow this pattern:
1.production lot--heterogeneous
2.individual boxes of bullets--heterogeneous pieces of individual
bullet-- fairly homogeneous
According to the Warren Commission, the FBI had done what was called
"spectrographic analysis" on some of the ballistics evidence in the
JFK case. According to Henry Hurt's discussion of this in his book
Reasonable Doubt, both the FBI and the Commission were maddeningly
vague about the results of the analysis. According to Hurt, this issue
was to be addressed by the last witness called by the Commission, who
was involved in the spectrographic analysis. Yet, during his
interview, the commissioners never asked him a question on the issue.
The Warren Report then noted that there were similarities in the metal
composition of some of the bullet fragments. With the actual analysis
not present and these vague generic terms in play, most considered
that what the FBI did was not of any forensic value.
But it was later revealed that the FBI had gone beyond spectography to
a much finer testing of the bullet fragments for trace metal testing
of what the lead cores were made out of: namely neutron activation
analysis. Yet although this kind of testing is much more exact for
analysis of what metals are in the bullet lead and to what degree,
according to Hurt, there is no mention of it in the Warren Report or
the accompanying volumes of evidence and testimony. But in a later
declassified letter from J. Edgar Hoover to the Commission, the so-
called 1964 NAA tests were noted. Although Hoover tries to put the
best face on the results, the sum total of his letter was that they
were inconclusive.
(Hurt, p. 81)
The whole NAA issue seemed to be a dead end. But that did not
discourage HSCA Chief Counsel Robert Blakey. Blakey decided to do a
"retest" of the compositional analysis of the lead cores of the
bullets involved in the case for the HSCA in September of 1977. Dr.
Vincent Guinn, a nuclear chemist at Cal Irvine, did the testing and
the HSCA called him as a witness at its public hearings. Guinn was
called upon on September 8, 1978. The difference between what Hoover
had reported, or not reported, in 1964 and what Guinn and the HSCA
declared in 1978 was startling. The scientific test called NAA went
from being "inconclusive" to showing that:
Only two bullets struck the presidential limo and its occupants,
thereby upholding the Warren Commission.
The Warren Wizards said: "The consensus among the witnesses at the
scene was that three shots were fired. However, some heard only two
shots. The most convincing evidence relating to the number of shots
was provided by the presence on the sixth floor of three spent
cartridges. This led the Commission to conclude that there were three
shots...." WR 110-111
.
But, later they said, "The physical and other evidence examined by
the Commission compels the conclusion that AT LEAST TWO SHOTS WERE
FIRED... It is possible that the assassin carried an EMPTY SHELL IN
THE RIFLE and fired only two shots ...." WR 111
After the coup, two bullet fragments were found in the Lincoln.
According to Warren , the two fragments weighed 44.6 and 21.0 grains
respectively."The heavier fragment was a portion of a bullet's nose
area... the lighter fragment consisted of a bullet's base... the two
fragments were both mutilated, and it was not possible to determine
from the fragments themselves whether they comprised the base and nose
of one bullet or of two separate bullets."
If one bullet missed the car completely and one ended up at Parkland
almost pristine, those fragments had to be the bullet that hit JFK in
the head and both fragments were from the same projectile. Or, they
are from the first bullet that passed through the neck of JFK and the
body of Gov. Connally, which makes more sense considering the angle of
the shot.
That leave the Parkland bullet to be explained for its place in Limbo.
I personally do not believe there was a missed shot. Like George
Evica, I believe the report of a first shot was an explosive device
(gun or otherwise) to create a diversion from the shooter in the TSBD.
Anyone can prove there were two shots at the limousine but no one can
prove there were three shots.
All bullet lead trace metal analysis showed that the ammunition came
from Western Cartridge Company's Mannlicher-Carcano (WCC MC)
manufacture. This would seem to link the ammunition to the alleged
rifle found on the sixth floor.
Fragments from Connally's wrist were "matched" with CE 399, or the
stretcher bullet that allegedly went through Kennedy also. This would
seem to indicate the Warren Commission was right about the single
bullet theory. However, critics have repeatedly advanced the argument
that the four fragments in Connally's wrist and thigh contained too
much mass to have come from CE 399. ...
The fragments and the reasons for analyzing them
The fragments recovered
Five basic fragments were recovered from the car, the hospital, and
the men's bodies. They and their masses are listed in Table 1 below,
which represents the pieces received by the FBI laboratory and
analyzed spectroscopically by them.. The source of this information is
a little-known FBI memo of 11 June 1979 from a "JWK" to the HSCA.
Their locations are shown in Figure 1, with the stretcher bullet Q1
being associated with Governor Connally's left thigh because that is
where it originally was.
Table 1. Bullets and fragments received by the FBI.
Specimen
Description
Total weight, grains
Total weight, milligrams
CE 399 (Q1)
Bullet from stretcher (lead core plus jacket)
158.6
10,277
The amount of mass lost by CE 399 cannot be known precisely because
it was not weighed beforehand. Ranges or averages of unfired bullets
of that type must be provided instead, and the final weight
subtracted.And, what about the mass of the fragments not recovered
from Connally's wrist?
Does anyone stop to consider that it was the only remaining certain
evidene to connect the shooting to the rifle found in the TSBD-that
was also connected to LHO? Even though a rifle was seen firing at the
motorcade and found and traced to LHO, it only became strong evidence
against him when a bullet fired from CE 2766 was ballistically proven
to have been fired through the barrel of the murder weapon. (CE 399)
Otherwise all else was circumstantial. Without it, a good defense
attorney could have made hay with what evidense was available.
Audrey Bell, the operating nurse, stated that there were four or
five fragments "anywhere from three to four millimeters in length and
a couple of millimeters wide. " These fragments disappeared at the
autopsy.
In addittion, what happened to the fragment found in Connally's leg
wound? Also. , there was a fragment in the governor's chest that was
never recovered. He died with fragments still in his body that
weighed
more that the alleged two to three missing grains from C-399 that was
described as near pristine. And the Warrens say , about pristine,
"The
Governor's wrist wound WAS NOT CAUSED BY A PRISTINE BULLET." p.94
As Ass't DA Alexander said, "The single bullet is like the
Immaculate Conception. Either you believe it or you don't."
CE 567 (Q2)
Bullet fragment from seat cushion (lead core plus brass jacket)
44.6
2,890
CE 569 (Q3)
Bullet fragment from front seat (jacket)
21.0
1,361
CE 843 (Q4,5)
Two lead fragments from President's head[2]
1.65; 0.15
107; 9.7
CE 842 (Q9)
Three lead fragments from Connally's arm
0.5
32
CE 840 (Q14)
Three lead fragments from rear carpet
0.9, 0.7, 0.7
58, 45, 45
CE 841 (Q15)
Scraping from inside surface of windshield
None listed
During the autopsy at Bethesda, X-rays of the president's brain
revealed that a multitude of tiny fragments were lodged there. ONLY
TWO were large enough to be retrieved (Q4, 5). They were given to
Secret Service Agents James W. Sibert and Francis O'Neill, Jr., who
transported them immediately to FBI Headquarters.
Three small fragments of lead (Q9) were recovered from Governor
Connally's arm during surgery. They were removed by Dr. Gregory and
given to Nurse Audrey Bell, who placed them in a container and gave
them to Bob Dolan of the Department of Public Safety, who gave them to
Will Fritz of the Dallas Police, who passed them on to the FBI.
An unfired M-Carcano round weighed 161 grains. Right?
Three shots were reported to be heard and fired. Right?
And, three spent casings were found in the TSBD. Right?
That means that a total of 483 grains of lead were fired and had
to be accounted for.Right?
If more than that is recovered, someone has some explaining to
do-including me. Right?
IF(IF) a shot missed completely, we now have 322 grains
remaining. Right?
The Parkland slug weighed 158.6 grains, so now we have 163.4
grains to account for.
70.2 grains were recovered from the limo, JFK and Connally. They
became the mass of ballistic evidence in possession of the FBI and
eventually turned over to the HSCA.
Now we have a little over 90 grains to account for. It no doubt
went into Dealy Plaza, was lost during the autopsy, or was buried
with
John Connally.
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