Isn't this case closed pretty much ?
PB
book), etc.. information about the Chicago and Tampa plots, their
details, who was behind them, and how they were set up exactly like
Dallas
Don't we know the CIA/Mafia killed JFK now ?
Seems to me we'll never know whether was just out of survival self-
defense, or whether they wanted to blame Castro for a new invasion/
coup in Cuba ?
Enough circumstancial evidence now to pin the blame on CIA/Mafia
Case as closed as will ever be
Gil Jesus
It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
There's a reason why evidence was tampered with.
It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
There was a reason why Kennedy was warned not to go to Dallas.
It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
There's a reason why the plots in the Mafia strongholds of Miami and
Chicago were unsuccessful and the Dallas one was successful.
It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
tomnln
"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:934c3ba1-1650-4487...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Not to mention the mafia did NOT have the power to "Cover it up".
ALL evidence/testimony were under Control of the authorities.
Bud
Enough direct evidence to fry Oswald ten times over. But, you seem
to have clutched at enough straw to build yourself a comfy nest.
tomnln
Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:54b5c342-3211-4c79...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Bud
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:54b5c342-3211-4c79...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> on JFK planned for Chicago on Nov. 2 (1?), and then *again* in Tampa on Nov.
> 18?
> Come on, now!
Who was charged in those instances? You see, the courts need more
than "this is enough to convince an idiot".
Bud
You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
CIA is enough to establish this?
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
Harry
Are you denying that Oswald was CIA?
Gil Jesus
>> � You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> CIA is enough to establish this?
>
And yet, one person who said he saw Oswald in the window shooting is
enough to establish it as fact.
Truly amazing double-standard.
Harry
They still can't name that ONE person though.
Amazing.
tomnln
> On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Hey Bud;
>>
>> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>
> You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> CIA is enough to establish this?
Bud even RUNS from the Easy Questions.
AGAIN;
Hey Bud;
Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
Bud
> On Aug 28, 7:01 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> >> You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>
> And yet, one person who said he saw Oswald in the window shooting is
> enough to establish it as fact.
If you weren`t an idiot, you`d know there is a lot more than just
what Brennan supplied. If Truly`s rifle was found on that floor, and a
picture of Truly holding it was found, we`d have reason to look in
other directions. You kooks are giving no good reasons to be looking
in any other directions. Looking past the murderer to admire the
scenery (like an Austarlian newspaper`s coverage of the murder) isn`t
going to get you kook any closer to the truth. But the fact is, you
kooks aren`t really interested in the truth, you are playing idiot`s
games with this man`s death.
> Truly amazing double-standard.
It is only a double standard to an idiot. A person said they saw
Oz`s name on a list of people paid by the CIA. That is an
extraordinary claim for which you kooks cannot produce extraordinary
support. Brennan`s claim was supported, by evidence found where he
indicated, and his ability to identify people who were on the 5th
floor of the TSBD.
Bud
>
> > On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> HeyBud;
>
> >> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>
> > You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>
>
> AGAIN;
>
> HeyBud;
>
> Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
Produce the extraordinary evidence ou have to support this amazing
claim.
robcap...@netscape.com
> On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > Hey Bud;
>
> > Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>
> You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> CIA is enough to establish this?
This from a guy who accepts "resembled LHO" as the shooter??? LOL!!!
> > "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:54b5c342-3211-4c79...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > > On Aug 27, 5:45 pm, PB <pbca1...@aim.com> wrote:
> > >> With Brothers, and Ultimate Sacrifice, and Double Cross (Giancana
> > >> book), etc.. information about the Chicago and Tampa plots, their
> > >> details, who was behind them, and how they were set up exactly like
> > >> Dallas
>
> > >> Don't we know the CIA/Mafia killed JFK now ?
>
> > >> Seems to me we'll never know whether was just out of survival self-
> > >> defense, or whether they wanted to blame Castro for a new invasion/
> > >> coup in Cuba ?
>
> > >> Enough circumstancial evidence now to pin the blame on CIA/Mafia
>
> > > Enough direct evidence to fry Oswald ten times over. But, you seem
> > > to have clutched at enough straw to build yourself a comfy nest.
>
> > >> Case as closed as will ever be- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Bud
>
> news:49c89be7-9ae7-4767...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> Hey Bud;
>
> >> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>
> > You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>
> Bud even RUNS from the Easy Questions.
>
> AGAIN;
>
> Hey Bud;
>
> Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
If he was, wouldn`t that make him more likely to be the person who
shot Kennedy?
Harry
> On Aug 28, 11:24 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
If he was, wouldn`t that make him more likely to be the person who
shot Kennedy?
Your Honor, I'd like at this time to enter into evidence Bud's
assumption that "[Oswald was] more likely to be the person who
shot Kennedy?" as Exhibit A.
"So ordered. The court will recognize Bud's Bullshit as Exhibit A."
tomnln
> On Aug 28, 11:24 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:49c89be7-9ae7-4767...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> HeyBud;
>>
>> >> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>>
>> > You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
>> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>>
>> Budeven RUNS from the Easy Questions.
>>
>> AGAIN;
>>
>> HeyBud;
>>
>> Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
> Produce the extraordinary evidence ou have to support this amazing
> claim.
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/spy.htm
Thanks for asking.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
> On Aug 28, 11:24 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:49c89be7-9ae7-4767...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> Hey Bud;
>>
>> >> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>>
>> > You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
>> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>>
>> Bud even RUNS from the Easy Questions.
>>
>> AGAIN;
>>
>> Hey Bud;
>>
>> Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
Bud wrote;
> If he was, wouldn`t that make him more likely to be the person who
> shot Kennedy?
I write;
WOW ! ! ! !
Bud thinks the CIA killed Kennedy! ! ! !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bud
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1fc76cbe-f5b6-4e04...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Aug 28, 11:24 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:49c89be7-9ae7-4767...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> >> Hey Bud;
>
> >> >> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>
> >> > You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> >> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>
> >> Bud even RUNS from the Easy Questions.
>
> >> AGAIN;
>
> >> Hey Bud;
>
> >> Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bud wrote;
>
> > If he was, wouldn`t that make him more likely to be the person who
> > shot Kennedy?
>
> I write;
>
> WOW ! ! ! !
>
> Bud thinks the CIA killed Kennedy! ! ! !
No, Bud is pointing out that if Oz was the kind of undercover
agent you allege, that should make him a more likely suspect to you to
have killed JFK. If you found out Truly (or Shelley, or Givens, ect)
were CIA, wouldn`t you say that alone shows his involvement? Why
doesn`t your contention that Oz was CIA indicate his guilt?
Bud
Tomnln has introduced evidence that if true, indicates your client`s
(Oswald) guilt.
Bud
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:90988ea2-251c-43cf...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Aug 28, 11:24 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:49c89be7-9ae7-4767...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
> >> >> HeyBud;
>
> >> >> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>
> >> > You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
> >> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>
> >> Budeven RUNS from the Easy Questions.
>
> >> AGAIN;
>
> >> HeyBud;
>
> >> Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > Produce the extraordinary evidence ou have to support this amazing
> > claim.
>
> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/spy.htm
>
> Thanks for asking.
Fifteen year old memories aren`t extraordinary evidence.
Harry
State it.
Tomnln happens to be one of the GOOD guys, unlike you, troll.
Harry
> On Aug 28, 11:55 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
Fifteen year old memories aren`t extraordinary evidence. >>>>>>
Then I guess that premise puts the Catholic Church out of business,
doesn't it?
2,000 years ago....
cdddraftsman
> With Brothers, and Ultimate Sacrifice, and Double Cross (Giancana
> book), etc.. information about the Chicago and Tampa plots, their
> details, who was behind them, and how they were set up exactly like
> Dallas
>
> Don't we know the CIA/Mafia killed JFK now ?
>
> Seems to me we'll never know whether was just out of survival self-
>
>
JFK had no power "To shatter the CIA into a thousand pieces" idiot !
The CIA was , is and always will be oversighted by Congress and not
some two bit thug like JFK .
Live with it .
tl
Harry
I guess that says it all you, doesn't it.
TWO-BIT THUG!! Mmmm.
tomnln
> On Aug 28, 11:55 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:90988ea2-251c-43cf...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Aug 28, 11:24 am, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:49c89be7-9ae7-4767...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > On Aug 27, 11:17 pm, "tomnln" <tom...@cox.net> wrote:
>> >> >> HeyBud;
>>
>> >> >> Was Oswald paid by the CIA?
>>
>> >> > You think one person saying they remember Oswald being paid by the
>> >> > CIA is enough to establish this?
>>
>> >> Budeven RUNS from the Easy Questions.
>>
>> >> AGAIN;
>>
>> >> HeyBud;
>>
>> >> Was Oswald Paid by the CIA?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> > Produce the extraordinary evidence ou have to support this amazing
>> > claim.
>>
>> SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/spy.htm
>>
>> Thanks for asking.
>
> Fifteen year old memories aren`t extraordinary evidence.
How long has AIDS effected your memory Bud?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->>>> >> >> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message>>>> >>>>news:54b5c342-3211-4c79...@x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...>>>> >> >> > On Aug 27, 5:45 pm, PB <pbca1...@aim.com> wrote:>> >> >> >> With Brothers, and Ultimate Sacrifice, and Double Cross(Giancana>> >> >> >> book), etc.. information about the Chicago and Tampa plots,their>> >> >> >> details, who was behind them, and how they were set up exactlylike>> >> >> >> Dallas>>>> >> >> >> Don't we know the CIA/Mafia killed JFK now ?>>>> >> >> >> Seems to me we'll never know whether was just out of survivalself->> >> >> >> defense, or whether they wanted to blame Castro for a newinvasion/>> >> >> >> coup in Cuba ?>>>> >> >> >> Enough circumstancial evidence now to pin the blame on CIA/Mafia>>>> >> >> > Enough direct evidence to fry Oswald ten times over. But, youseem>> >> >> > to have clutched at enough straw to build yourself a comfy nest.>>>> >> >> >> Case as closed as will ever be>
Bud
I`m an atheist, idiot. The Catholic Church doesn`t have the
extraordinary evidence to back up their claims either.
Bud
That won`t be enough, I`ll have to explain it in terms an idiot can
understand.
Most CT kooks contend that the CIA was involved in JFK`s murder.
Most CT kooks say Oswald is innocent of that murder.
Tom, by claiming Oswald is CIA, is affiliating Oswald with the
organization he says is responsible for Kennedy`s death.
> Tomnln happens to be one of the GOOD guys, unlike you, troll.
Tom is a very old tard. And I see the "good guy" called you a child
molester today.
tomnln
tomnln has NEVER stated that the CIA killed JFK.
tomnln has said that the CIA "Lied/Destroyed evidence".
Looks like the old adage is TRUE;
When Bud tells a Lie;
Bud must tell TWO (2) more Lies to "Cover-it-up"
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry
Circumstances change. You got a problem with that Budd-Brain? Mind
your own danmed business.
If the CIA, you IDIOT (just thought I'd throw that in for good
measure) wasn't involved in the murder, why then did they go to
extremes to cover the tracks of the killers? And don't EVEN tell me
they didn't.
Garrison--whom I'm sure you DESPISE--asserted in 1969 that Clay Shaw
was CIA and invlolved in some way or another in the murder of JFK, but
couldn't prove it. Since that time, through CIA documents, Garrison
has been justified in his assertions. Score one for the CFers,
dumbass.
And what about the memo to media assets on how to treat critics of the
WC? Why get involved in something that doesn't concern you in the
first place?
BTW, you're still an IDIOT and nothing in this universe is going to
change that. Get used to it.
David Von Pein
I wonder what's made Harry The Mega-Kook so angry?
Bad batch from his dealer, ya think?
He's probably been using Healy's dealer again. Rusty needles and all.
That can affect your disposition.
And as we all know, almost all drug-infested losers are also ABO
kooks.*
* = Source: FOX News Poll; 05/31/2006
Bud
> "Bud" <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote in message
And if you could read, you`d see I didn`t name you. I said "Most CT
kooks contend..." Like I`m supposed to keep track of the different
beliefs of all you retards.
> tomnln has said that the CIA "Lied/Destroyed evidence".
But you contend the CIA had nothing to do with the actual
assassination, is that it?
Bud
> On Aug 29, 12:53 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 29, 8:14 am, Harry <harryfreeloa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Tom is a very old tard. And I see the "good guy" called you a child
> molester today.>>>
>
> Circumstances change.
The circumstances haven`t changed, you both were and still remain
idiots.
> You got a problem with that Budd-Brain? Mind
> your own danmed business.
Kooks are my business.
> If the CIA, you IDIOT (just thought I'd throw that in for good
> measure) wasn't involved in the murder, why then did they go to
> extremes to cover the tracks of the killers? And don't EVEN tell me
> they didn't.
You claim that the CIA was involved in the assassination. You seem
to also claim that Oswald was CIA. Why don`t I ever see any kooks
advancing the idea that Oswald killed JFK on the orders of that
agency?
The reason is simple, you love your precious patsy, and you kooks
will never concede that your sweet Lee would hurt a fly. You`re like
the mother who always claims her child could do no wrong.
But, there is a bright side to this. Oswald killed JFK for reasons
he felt strongly about. You kooks have robbed him of this, and have
assigned your own reasons for his actions. You associate him with
people and groups he would hate to be associated with. You`ve stolen
his identity, his ideals, his beliefs, his actions, his courage and
his entire legacy. You portray him as a fool, a stooge, a pawn, a man
with no control over his actions or destiny. I think he would much
prefer that my version of the event, the one that gives him credit for
his actions, be the prevailing opinion rather than the one the kooks
have devised for him. Instead, idiots have crowned the jester king,
long live Oswald, The Fool.
> Garrison--whom I'm sure you DESPISE--asserted in 1969 that Clay Shaw
> was CIA and invlolved in some way or another in the murder of JFK, but
> couldn't prove it. Since that time, through CIA documents, Garrison
> has been justified in his assertions. Score one for the CFers,
> dumbass.
Typical of kooks, when defeated on the issue they raise, they move
off in some other random direction.
> And what about the memo to media assets on how to treat critics of the
> WC? Why get involved in something that doesn't concern you in the
> first place?
Again, you meander off the topic.
David Von Pein
>>> "If the CIA...wasn't involved in the murder, why then did they go to extremes to cover the tracks of the killers? And don't EVEN tell me they didn't." <<<
They didn't.
"The CIA had nothing to hide in thousands of previous documents
the agency initially refused to release voluntarily but ultimately did
release under court order. The CIA specializes in always acting
guilty, even when it is not, and always being, from a public relations
standpoint, its own worst enemy." -- V. Bugliosi
>>> "Garrison--whom I'm sure you [Bud] DESPISE..." <<<
What rational person wouldn't?
>>> "...asserted in 1969 that Clay Shaw was CIA and invlolved in some way or another in the murder of JFK, but couldn't prove it." <<<
Of course he couldn't prove it. Because Garrison knew his whole case
against Shaw was one big, fat made-up ball of shit.
"Instead of referring to [Clay] Shaw (or "the defendant") a
great number of times as he tried to connect him to the conspiracy and
murder, as any prosecutor would do if he believed the person he was
prosecuting was guilty, unbelievably [Jim] Garrison only referred to
Shaw ONCE in his entire summation {to the jury}, and then not to say
that the evidence showed he was guilty. NOT ONCE did Garrison tell the
jury he had proved Shaw's guilt or that the evidence pointed toward
Shaw's guilt. ....
"[A] benefit to Garrison of only charging Shaw with conspiracy
[instead of both conspiracy and murder itself] is that under Louisiana
law...when conspiracy alone is alleged, only 9 out of 12 jurors must
concur to render a guilty verdict. So Garrison only needed nine jurors
to convict Shaw. He couldn't even get one." -- V. Bugliosi
>>> "Since that time, through CIA documents, Garrison has been justified in his assertions." <<<
Bullshit.
>>> "Score one for the CFers, dumbass." <<<
Does "CFers" = "Certifiable Fruitcakes"?
If that's not what CFers stands for here, it had-oughta.
rt...@hotmail.com
> With Brothers, and Ultimate Sacrifice, and Double Cross (Giancana
> book), etc.. information about the Chicago and Tampa plots, their
> details, who was behind them, and how they were set up exactly like
> Dallas
>
> Don't we know the CIA/Mafia killed JFK now ?
>
> Seems to me we'll never know whether was just out of survival self-
> defense, or whether they wanted to blame Castro for a new invasion/
> coup in Cuba ?
>
> Enough circumstancial evidence now to pin the blame on CIA/Mafia
>
You attempted:
" Don't we know the CIA/Mafia killed JFK now ?"
Answer: Yes.
You furthered:
> Seems to me we'll never know whether was just out of survival self-
> defense, or whether they wanted to blame Castro for a new invasion/
> coup in Cuba ?
Answer:
The assassination was due to the Double Cross documented in Giancanas'
book.
Mooney does not mention Files because Files story is intentionally
wrong.
Mooney also got the contract on RFK.
Here are relevant parts of Giancanas' book:
DOUBLE CROSS 329
SAM AND CHUCK [Mooney] GIANCANA
"Yeah, the government's sure been good to you," Chuck retorted
sarcastically.
"Hey," Mooney said sharply. He leaned forward and knotted his hands
into two tight fists. "Forget about the fuckin' G-men . . . I'm
talkin' CIA. They're different. Like night and day. We've been
partners on more deals than I have time to tell you about. You should
know that by now, for Christ's sake."
"I guess I'll never understand, huh?" Chuck challenged, irritated by
Mooney's cavalier know-it-all attitude.
Glowering, Mooney stood up from his chair, cigar in hand, and marched
across the room. When he reached Chuck, he lowered his voice and
hissed, "Maybe this will help." He fixed Chuck in a steely,
impenetrable gaze. "We took care of Kennedy ... together. " He lifted
his cigar to his lips and a cruel smile curled like an embrace around
it.
There was a deadly silence in the room as Mooney stalked back to the
comfort of his chair. Chuck felt as if his mind had just gone blank,
become an empty slate of shock, and, still, a million questions rushed
in just as quickly. He finally knew for certain what he'd secretly
feared all along; his brother had been right-the government and the
Outfit really were two sides of the same coin. But hearing the
truthand hearing it directly from Mooney-left him speechless. He saw
his hands tremble as he reached for the reassurance of a cigar.
"How's that?" Mooney said, smiling triumphantly from his chair.
Chuck could only nod. He cleared his throat and muttered, "I guess ...
I guess I see what you mean."
For the next hour, Mooney shared the darkest and most horrifying of
his secrets. Deep down, Chuck wanted to tell his brother to stop,
wanted to cover his ears. These were not, he thought, the secrets a
man should know if he valued his life. But somehow he couldn't call a
halt to the stream of words.
Chuck had already known Jack Ruby was not a stranger to Chicago. Ruby
had been Chicago's, meaning Mooney's, "man in Dallas" for years,
running strip joints, gambling rackets, and narcotics for the Outfit
and running guns-and, he heard, narcotics, as well-for the CIA. All
the activities were carried out under Mooney's direction, largely
through the insulatory channels of a small, trusted handful of
lieutenants: Lenny Patrick, Dave Yaras, Paul Jones, and his old
CalNeva pit boss, Lewis McWillie, as well as Mooney's Outfit Teamsters
men Red and Allen Dorfman.
DOUBLE
CROSS
330
Ruby's murder of Oswald, an act that placed Chicago's Outfit and its
leader squarely in the middle of the assassination cover-up for anyone
who understood the Outfit hierarchy, was, as Chuck had already
suspected, not inspired by a sudden outburst of patriotism on the part
of a two-bit racketeer.
Mooney told Chuck that he'd kept Johnny Roselli as his liaison to
Marcello, Trafficante, and the CIA, while concurrently directing his
lieutenants to put Ruby in charge of overseeing the Outfit's role in
the assassination, collaborating in Dallas with the government agents,
So it came to be that another Jack Ruby - a smart, clever man, one
very different from the person erroneously portrayed by the media as
an overzealous yet bumbling nightclub owner-played a major role in the
events surrounding the murder of the President.
Ruby, Mooney told Chuck, had been a logical choice. The guy had
previously demonstrated his extreme loyalty and ability to work with
the CIA during the planning for the Bay of Pigs invasion. Mooney said
he'd heard through Lenny Patrick that Ruby actually had come into his
own while collaborating with his intelligence buddies; over time, the
Dallas gangster had formed fast friendships with undercover agents-men
like Lee Harvey Oswald. Indeed, at one point, Ruby went so far as to
give CIA operative and Outfit pilot David Ferrie a job in his Carousel
Club.
But there was another reason Mooney said he selected Jack Ruby for the
job: His relationships with Dallas law-enforcement officers were
unusually good. Since first coming to Texas, true to his Chicago
Outfit training, he'd massaged the local cops and politicians,
gradually getting to know most on a first-name basis. These
friendships, Mooney said, had been extremely useful in overcoming
problems "with the local cop in the street" in the aftermath of the
assassination.
As the person representing the Outfit in Dallas, the task had quite
naturally fallen to Ruby to silence Oswald when he was unexpectedly
captured alive. "Having Oswald alive ... and in custody ... put us on
the spot, real good," Mooney said, chuckling. Chuck, for his part,
didn't see the humor.
Utilizing his associations with the Dallas police force, Mooney
explained that Ruby was able to gain entry to the police station-an
astounding feat for a person the press later referred to as a
"halfwitted strip club operator" - both immediately after Oswald's
incarceration and, more critically, during Oswald's transfer.
The look on Oswald's face at the sight of a man he knew, should
DOUBLE CROSS 331
have tipped the cops, Mooney admitted. "Shit, I heard they were queer
for each other," Mooney said. "They sure as hell were friends....
Oswald knew what the story was when he saw Jack comin' at him. He knew
he'd been made the patsy already and then he knew Jack was gonna take
him out ... but what the fuck was he gonna do about it then?" Mooney
shrugged impassively. "It was too late. "
Chuck knew from years of association with the Outfit that a guy in
Ruby's position would have to go to any lengths to kill Oswald, who
had the knowledge to blow the lid off the entire operation. There
wasn't an Outfit guy alive who didn't think it was better to die in
prison as a murderer-to be executed in the chair for that matter than
to die at the hand of one of Mooney's vengeful enforcers for a screwed-
up job. The gruesome memory of Action Jackson's torture and murder
still lingered. Ever the loyal Outfit guy, Jack Ruby did what he had
to do.
Mooney said that the "alleged lone gunman," Lee Harvey Oswald, like
Ruby, had ties to both the CIA and the Outfit. Oswald had been
connected to the New Orleans Mob from the time he was born; his uncle
was a Marcello lieutenant who had exerted a powerful influence over
the fatherless boy. Early in life, Oswald had formed a powerful
alliance with the U.S. intelligence community. First, as an
impressionable young man during a stint in the Civil Air Patrol with
homosexual CIA operative and Outfit smuggling pilot David Ferrie --
bizarre, hairless eccentric whom Mooney said he and Marcello
frequently used to fly drugs and guns out of Central America. And
later, when serving in the marines during the late fifties, when
Oswald attended a series of intensive intelligence training sessions
run by the Office of Naval Intelligence in a top secret Japanese spy
base. The short of it, Mooney said, was that Lee Harvey Oswald was a
CIA agent.
Oswald had been a spy for the U.S. government in the Soviet Union, and
had been trained to speak fluent Russian. He was not a Castro
sympathizer nor Communist at all, as the misinformation that spewed
forth from government agencies in the wake of the assassination had
the public believing. In truth, Mooney said, "Lee Harvey Oswald was a
right-wing supporter of the 'Kill Castro, Bay of Pigs Camp'. . . CIA
all the way."
After serving the CIA and its military intelligence division in the
Soviet Union, Oswald had returned to work at a company involved
332
SAM GIANCANA AND CHUCK GIANCANA
in top security projects for the U.S. government. Once back in New
Orleans with his Russian wife, he was directed by the CIA to a man
very well known to Mooney, former Chicago FBI agent and Commiebuster
Guy Banister.
Banister's Camp Street detective offices were a front for CIA covert
domestic operations as well as clandestine Outfit and Cuban exile
operations-just as had been the case with the Miami-based detective
agency in which Richard Cain had worked following his stint with the
CIA, where he trained Cuban exiles. Likewise, Mooney said Bob Maheu's
Washington - Las Vegas detective agencies served a similar purpose.
All were fronts, designed to cloak illegal CIA-Outfit activities and
draw top-notch agents for the CIA.
When Oswald was sent to Dallas by his intelligence superiors, he met
with Mooney's Dallas representative, Jack Ruby, at Ruby's Carousel
Club and reestablished his relationship with David Ferrie. Oswald was
also put in contact with another of Mooney's associates, a man Mooney
dealt with through both his Haitian and Dallas dealings, the Russian
exile and CIA operative, geologist George DeMohrenschildt. "That guy
helped me make a lot of money in oil, man A man, did he have the
contacts with Texas oilmen back then. He introduced me to a lot of
'em, too."
Over the years, Chuck had heard the names of many oilmen mentioned by
his brother as "business associates," among them Syd Richardson, H. L.
Hunt, Clint Murchison, and Mike Davis-a man who was later rumored
among Outfit guys to be connected romantically with Phyllis McGuire.
Chuck had also heard the names of several Texas politicians, including
Lyndon Johnson and John Connally, said by Mooney to have received
substantial Outfit and oil-money backing.
Mooney now confided that the dollars raised for the hit on the
President-each man involved in the assassination plot received fifty
thousand dollars; Mooney said he personally received "millions in oil--
had come from wealthy right-wing Texas oilmen. Precisely who these
financiers were, however, Mooney never disclosed. And following a code
well-ingrained over many years in the Outfit, Chuck never asked.
Mooney told Chuck he sent Johnny Roselli to New Orleans to check out
Oswald early on. "When I told Marcello what the deal was, he said he
liked the way Oswald looked for the job and so did Banister. Roselli
came back with the same impression. . . . 'He's perfect,' that's what
Roselli said after he met him in Banister's office," Mooney
DOUBLE CROSS 333
recalled. Roselli returned to Banister's New Orleans office several
times in preparation for Dallas, his last trip being in October of
1963.
Contrary to popular opinion, Oswald, Mooney added, had been a bright
kid. His downfall had been his unyielding patriotism and malleability;
he was easily manipulated.
In early spring of 1963, when the decision was reached by Mooney and
his CIA associates to finalize plans for their elimination of the
President, Oswald was the natural choice as fall guy. "They'd already
laid the groundwork to make him look like a Commie nut, by goin' to
Russia and with all that pro-Castro shit. He was perfect ... he acted
like a Commie ... he smelled like a Commie ... so they figured it
would be no problem to convince people he was a Commie. "
As he'd done with the Castro assassination attempt and other covert
operations previously, Mooney told Chuck he relied on Roselli as his
main conduit to the CIA-but only after he said he held an initial
meeting with Guy Banister, Bob Mahue, and former CIA deputy director
Charles Cabell, then employed in Mahue's detective firm. There was
also a man Mooney described as a "covert operations specialist" and
some top brass in U.S. military intelligence from Asia in attendance.
After this meeting, Mooney said that Roselli met "several times" with
members of the original group as well as the CIA's Frank Fiorini.
Roselli also continued to serve as Mooney's go-between to Marcello,
Trafficante, and Hoffa, men who were equally eager to see their
nemesis, Jack Kennedy, eliminated.
Mooney said that the entire conspiracy went "right up to the top of
the CIA." He claimed that some of its former and present leaders were
involved, as well as a "half dozen fanatical right-wing Texans, Vice
President Lyndon Johnson, and the Bay of Pigs Action Officer under
Eisenhower, Richard Nixon."
The more Chuck understood about Mooney's plot and its multitude of
players, the more apparent it became that there were few, if any,
lines of demarcation between the Outfit and the CIA. There were no
black hats and white hats; that was all a sham for, as Mooney put it,
"saps to cling to." In many instances, the Outfit and the CIA were one
and the same.
Such was the case, according to Mooney, with Frank Fionini, Mooney's
lieutenant who worked simultaneously with the government intelligence
agency and would go on to become embroiled in Richard Nixon's
Watergate fiasco under the alias Frank Sturgis.
334 SAM GIANCANA AND CHUCK
GIANCANA
The same held true of Richard Cain. Cain was an operative and Outfit
man who secretly had worked as a spy for Mooney in Chicago Sheriff
Richard Ogilvie's department. Cain was now the man whom Mooney
intended to make his confidante, international traveling companion,
and CIA deal-maker.
From Mooney's point of view-one that Chuck couldn't help but embrace
when faced with the facts his brother threw down before him-the CIA
and Outfit had become so intertwined that to say there had been a
conspiracy between the two overlooked the mere fact that they had
become-for all practical purposes-one.
For all its apparent simplicity, Mooney said the Dallas assassination
had taken months to mastermind; dozens of men were involved and the
hit had been planned for several different cities-Miami, Chicago, Los
Angeles, and Dallas. But ultimately, the President had been lured to
Dallas, the city affording the best opportunity for a successful
assassination. Mooney said both "Richard Nixon and Lyndon Johnson knew
about the whole damned thing," having met with him several times in
Dallas immediately prior to the assassination. What exactly was
discussed between these men, Mooney didn't say.
"The politicians and the CIA made it real simple," Mooney explained.
"We'd each provide men for the hit.... I'd oversee the Outfit side of
things and throw in Jack Ruby and some extra backup and the CIA would
put their own guys on to take care of the rest."
According to Mooney, the nuts-and-bolts planning had involved some of
the top people on the Dallas police force; most conveniently, the
mayor, Earle Cabell, was the brother of former CIA deputy director
Charles Cabell. As the man responsible for citywide security, the
mayor provided the police protection for the presidential motorcade.
Mooney grinned. "They made sure it was so loose down there on the day
of the hit, shit, a four-year-old could've nailed Jack Kennedy."
Chuck would later learn through the Outfit grapevine that Mooney
solicited professional killers from several quarters. Killers, who the
guys said, were required to be "top-notch marksmen": two of Marcello's
men, Charles Harrelson and Jack Lawrence, as well as two of
Trafficante's Cuban exile "friends. " It was rumored that one of these
exiles was a former Havana vice cop turned mobster and the other a
radical-turned-corrupt U.S. Customs official.
From Chicago, Mooney brought in Richard Cain, Chuckie Nicoletti, and
Milwaukee Phil, all having worked previously on "the Bay of Pigs
deal." Mooney said that both Cain and Nicoletti were actual
DOUBLE CROSS 335
gunmen for the hit, being placed at opposite ends of the Dallas Book
Depository. In fact, he asserted it was Cain, not Oswald, who'd
actually fired from the infamous sixth-story window.
Mooney also alleged that the CIA had added several of their own
soldiers" to the team, using Roscoe White and J. D. Tippit as the
actual gunmen-along with Frank Fiorini and Lee Harvey Oswald, the man
Mooney said they intended to frame as the lone assassin.
During the operation, Mooney said the CIA upper echelon sequestered
themselves in a hotel [Adolphus?], surrounded by electronic equipment.
With the aid of walkie-talkies, the men were able to secure their
firing positions and learn of Oswald's whereabouts immediately
following the hit. Mooney's backup, Milwaukee Phil, stood armed and
ready to handle any last-minute interference with the shooters.
To eliminate Oswald, Mooney said the CIA had selected White and
Tippit, who both-like Richard Cain, who'd served in Chicago's
Sheriff's Department-held positions in law enforcement, on the Dallas
police force. Under the guise of self-defense and in the line of duty,
they were to murder the "lone gunman." However, Tippit had wavered,
Mooney said, allowing Oswald to escape. Thus, White had been forced to
kill his partner. "Probably the only real screwup in the whole
goddamned deal."
"And the rest is history," Mooney said, grinning. "For once, we didn't
even have to worry about J. Edgar Hoover.... He hated the Kennedys as
much as anybody and he wasn't about to help Bobby find his brother's
killers. He buried his head in the sand, covered up anything and
everything his 'Boy Scouts' found. But there was a line into the CIA.
If somebody knew too much, the CIA found out about it and took care of
the problem." When Mooney used the phrase 11 took care of the
problem," Chuck caught the tacit message being conveyed.
From what Mooney said that day, the CIA had indeed stepped in with
immense efficiency and removed all traces of conspiracy. As for any
evidence that Chicago's Mob boss was a participant in the events of
November 22, 1963, Mooney said he was well insulated, thanks to his
practice of delegating the details to his trusted lieutenants. Mooney-
like the higher ups in the CIA-cared very little about the minute
details of the plot's inner workings; the results were all that
mattered. He'd met one last time in Dallas, right before the hit, with
the top guys in the CIA group, some politicians, and the Texan
assassination backers, and that was that.
336 SAM GIANCANA AND CHUCK GIANCANA
Chuck had listened appalled while Mooney unveiled the story of the
President's murder. Now, his brother suddenly looked away, falling
quiet as he apparently searched for the right words. He turned back to
Chuck and went on. "The hit in Dallas was just like any other
operation we'd worked on in the past ... we'd overthrown other
governments in other countries plenty of times before. This time, we
just did it in our own backyard."
He said the murder of President Kennedy was little different from the
plot to kill Castro, the murders of Vietnam's leaders, that of
Panama's president-or any of the other dozens of military/ CIA-
sponsored coups propagated throughout the world.
"On November 22, 1963, " Mooney stated with chilling authority,
the United States had a coup; it's that simple. The government of this
country was overthrown by a handful of guys who did their job so
damned well ... not one American even knew it happened. But I know. I
know I've guaranteed the Outfit's future ... once and for all. We're
set here in the United States. So, it's time to move on to greener
pastures. Spreadin' the Outfit's power and makin' a fortune in deals
overseas are two of the best reasons I can think of to leave the
country." He paused and smiled somewhat sheepishly. "And I guess we
could add that it'll be damned nice not being tailed by the G. "
just days later, Mooney was in Mexico and Chuck was left alone with
his terrible secret.
Thanks to his brother's revelations, Chuck felt he would now live
forever in the shadow of fear. And that fear-the fear that came with
knowing the truth-gripped him now. He even wondered how Mooney could
have shared it, why he had laid it all out in such glowing detail,
knowing it might jeopardize his life.
Chuck didn't know what the guys in the CIA were really like. He had a
pretty good idea already; he didn't want to know the full truth. But
he suspected he now had far more to fear from U. S. government agents
knocking on his door than any Outfit henchmen. As the years passed,
Chuck realized that sometimes he hated Mooney for that. Hated him more
for confessing his sins than for committing them. Hated him for
telling the truth. After all, the truth had never been a source of
comfort to guys in the Outfit, himself included. "Ignorance is bliss
-- that's what Mooney had always said, and Chuck decided now that his
brother was probably right. Because if the wrong
[skip to page 345]
DOUBLE MOM 345
witness to the shooting at the Tisci home was found murdered, and with
that, the case was closed. The FBI and its agent David Hale escaped
prosecution.
Outfit members believed the attack on Mooney's daughter's home had
been an attempt to lure the Chicago boss across the Mexican border. If
so, they failed to wrest Mooney from his lair. Instead, he jaunted
through South and Central America during 1968 and 1969, moving to a
new residence in the posh Las Quintas section of Cuernavaca, a massive
walled estate known as San Cristobal.
In April of 1969, Chuck crawled out of the darkness of his movie
operator's booth long enough to learn some distressing news about his
brother from Outfit enforcer Chuckie Nicoletti.
He'd stopped by the Lilac Lodge, a West Side Chicago haunt. Since it
was well known as an Outfit watering hole, Chuck hoped to hear some
word of Mooney's Mexican adventures. During the spring and summer
months, Mooney's men-everybody who was anybody-often played a round of
golf at the nearby Fresh Meadows Golf Club and sooner or later made
their way over to the Lilac Lodge for a drink. When he walked in the
door, Chuck spotted Chuckie Nicoletti, apparently alone, at a comer
table. Nicoletti waved him over and ordered another drink.
Nicoletti was not what Chuck considered a brilliant conversationalist,
but what he had to say on this afternoon while they sat sequestered in
the quiet recesses of the Lilac Lodge captured Chuck's attention
completely.
"Well," Nicoletti announced after they'd exchanged handshakes and had
drinks in hand, "one more Kennedy out of the way, huh?" He smiled
broadly.
" Yeah," Chuck murmured absentmindedly. He wasn't in the mood to talk
about the Kennedys and hoped Nicoletti would change the subject.
Instead, Nicoletti continued. "So Mooney did it again ... goddamn ...
I'll tell you . . . your brother's a fuckin' genius."
"Did what again?" Chuck asked, sipping his martini.
"You know." Nicoletti lowered his voice an octave. "Hit Bobby."
Not wanting to appear ignorant, Chuck nodded and lit a cigar. "Oh,
yeah," he replied.
"Settin' up that guy Sirhan to take the rap, shit, didn't it work like
a charm? Of course," he added, winking, "the son of a bitch didn't
have much choice."
DOUBLE CROSS 345
witness to the shooting at the Tisci home was found murdered, and with
that, the case was closed. The FBI and its agent David Hale escaped
prosecution.
Outfit members believed the attack on Mooney's daughter's home had
been an attempt to lure the Chicago boss across the Mexican border. If
so, they failed to wrest Mooney from his lair. Instead, he jaunted
through South and Central America during 1968 and 1969, moving to a
new residence in the posh Las Quintas section of Cuernavaca, a massive
walled estate known as San Cristobal.
In April of 1969, Chuck crawled out of the darkness of his movie
operator's booth long enough to learn some distressing news about his
brother from Outfit enforcer Chuckie Nicoletti.
He'd stopped by the Lilac Lodge, a West Side Chicago haunt. Since it
was well known as an Outfit watering hole, Chuck hoped to hear some
word of Mooney's Mexican adventures. During the spring and summer
months, Mooney's men-everybody who was anybody-often played a round of
golf at the nearby Fresh Meadows Golf Club and sooner or later made
their way over to the Lilac Lodge for a drink. When he walked in the
door, Chuck spotted Chuckie Nicoletti, apparently alone, at a comer
table. Nicoletti waved him over and ordered another drink.
Nicoletti was not what Chuck considered a brilliant conversationalist,
but what he had to say on this afternoon while they sat sequestered in
the quiet recesses of the Lilac Lodge captured Chuck's attention
completely.
"Well," Nicoletti announced after they'd exchanged handshakes and had
drinks in hand, "one more Kennedy out of the way, huh?" He smiled
broadly.
" Yeah," Chuck murmured absentmindedly. He wasn't in the mood to talk
about the Kennedys and hoped Nicoletti would change the subject.
Instead, Nicoletti continued. "So Mooney did it again ... goddamn ...
I'll tell you . . . your brother's a fuckin' genius."
"Did what again?" Chuck asked, sipping his martini.
"You know." Nicoletti lowered his voice an octave. "Hit Bobby."
Not wanting to appear ignorant, Chuck nodded and lit a cigar. "Oh,
yeah," he replied.
"Settin' up that guy Sirhan to take the rap, shit, didn't it work like
a charm? Of course," he added, winking, "the son of a bitch didn't
have much choice."
346 SAM
GIANCANA MD CHUCK GIANCANA
"No, not much choice," Chuck agreed, wondering what N icolett meant.
"Hey, when you work for the Outfit and owe 'em a small fortune ... and
you can't cough it up ... that's what happens. Right? Shit, now that I
think about it, it was a lot like the Ruby and Oswald deal.'
"Yeah," Chuck agreed.
"You know," Nicoletti whispered, "Oswald didn't really fire a shot. At
least Sirhan did that much. But even if he couldn't hit a barn, it
didn't matter, 'cause Mooney had another guy do the job on Bobby ...
some Mexican he probably dug up down south."
"Yeah, I saw it on TV ... the murder," Chuck added, not knowing what
to say. Obviously, Nicoletti thought he was still very much on the
inside with Mooney.
"Me, too," Nicoletti said, laughing out loud. "Can you believe it?
Mooney must like to nail those Kennedy bastards in front of God and
everybody. Sorta proves a point, doesn't it?" His eyes narrowed.
"I guess so. Let's 'em know nothin' will stop him ... not even a crowd
of reporters." He felt his heart begin to race. Mooney, contrary to
what the papers were saying about him being washed up, a has-been
mobster, was still exerting his influence over the entire country,
over the course of history. Chuck wondered whether the same people
were responsible, whether the CIA was involved. Certainly the lack of
any real investigation into Bobby's murder seemed suspiciously similar
to what had occurred in the wake of Jack's death.
Sam McClung
the JFK assassination.
Here it is graphically, in somewhat of a hierarchy.
http://web.newsguy.com/mcclung/
And Lawrence at work
http://web.newsguy.com/mcclung/lawrence.html
Giancana nailed the coffin shut.
Not many of them are still alive, maybe Lawrence, Harrelson, and one of the
CIA upper echelon whose alibi is in Tyler Texas.
Sam
<rt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f7788fbf-2eb0-41e2...@i76g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
<snip> Here are relevant parts of Giancanas' book:
curtjester1
> That is a nice summary by Sam Giancana in Double Cross of who did what in
> the JFK assassination.
>
> Here it is graphically, in somewhat of a hierarchy.http://web.newsguy.com/mcclung/
>
>
> Giancana nailed the coffin shut.
>
> Not many of them are still alive, maybe Lawrence, Harrelson, and one of the
> CIA upper echelon whose alibi is in Tyler Texas.
>
> Sam
>
Lawrence still alive. Read 'Jack Lawrence Responds' - Sheldon
Inkol ..in Sept. '92 of Third Decade
Harrelson died last year. Phillips and Hunt passed.
CJ
robcap...@netscape.com
> There's a reason why witnesses were ignored.
>
> It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
>
> There's a reason why evidence was tampered with.
>
> It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
>
> There was a reason why Kennedy was warned not to go to Dallas.
>
> It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
>
> There's a reason why the plots in the Mafia strongholds of Miami and
> Chicago were unsuccessful and the Dallas one was successful.
>
> It had nothing to do with the Mafia.
LHO doing it alone doesn't explain how some made 500 MILLION on
11/22/63 in the stock market by selling short. How did they know a
"lone nut" was going to kill JFK?