Mary Woodward
Robert Harris
lamppost on the North side of Elm, just a few feet East of Bill and Gayle
Newman. Like the large majority of other witnesses in Dealey Plaza that
day, Woodward confirmed that there was a single, isolated shot, followed
by a delay, and then very closely spaced or "bunched" gunshots at the end.
This is from an interview in "the Men Who Killed Kennedy".
"I heard a very loud noise. And I wasn't sure what it was at that point,
and I turned to my friends and asked 'what was that; is some jerk shooting
off firecrackers?' And, uh, then I heard the second one, and this time I
knew what had happened, because I saw the president's motion, and then the
third shot came very, very quickly, on top of the second one..."
"But one thing I am totally positive of in my own mind is how many shots
there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were
immediate --- it was almost as if one were an echo of the other -- they
came so quickly. The sound of one did not cease until the second shot."
BTW, you can view and hear a Quicktime file of this critical part of
Woodward's recollection at the following address:
ftp://www.c-works.com/woodward.mov
If anyone has it, I am still looking for a copy of Woodward's original
article in the Dallas Morning News. Please drop me an email if you have it
or know of a site where it is posted.
Bob Harris
Tom Bowden
but I will send to you when available.
Quote from Article dated November 23, 1963 Section 1 -3.
............
"After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly a
horrible ear-shattering noise coming from behind and a little to the
right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke,
someone had backfired their car. Apparently the driver and occupants of
the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding
up, the car came almost to a halt.
Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was
hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and
looked around, as if they, too, did'nt believe the noise was really coming
from a gun.
Then after a monent's pause there was another shot and I saw the President
start slumping in the car.
This was followed rapidly by another shot. Mrs Kennedy stood up in the
car, then fell on top of her husband's body. Not until this minute did it
sink in what actually was happening......"
later on in article
"about 10 feet from where we were standing, a man and woman had thrown
their small child to the ground and covered his body with theirs.
Apparently the bullets had whizzed directly over their heads."
Tom Bowden
Conspiracy Museum
--
Ahimsa......may you live in a world of non-forcefulness
Robert Harris <reha...@spinn.net> wrote in message
news:reharris-310...@dialip111.spinn.net...
> Mary Woodward, a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, was standing at the
> lamppost on the North side of Elm, just a few feet East of Bill and Gayle
> Newman. Like the large majority of other witnesses in Dealey Plaza that
> day, Woodward confirmed that there was a single, isolated shot, followed
> by a delay, and then very closely spaced or "bunched" gunshots at the end.
> This is from an interview in "the Men Who Killed Kennedy".
> ftp://www.c-works.com/woodward.mov
L. Jane Goldsmith
Robert Harris wrote:
Mary Woodward, a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, was standing at the
lamppost on the North side of Elm, just a few feet East of Bill and Gayle
Newman. Like the large majority of other witnesses in Dealey Plaza that
day, Woodward confirmed that there was a single, isolated shot, followed
by a delay, and then very closely spaced or "bunched" gunshots at the end.
This is from an interview in "the Men Who Killed Kennedy".
"I heard a very loud noise. And I wasn't sure what it was at that point,
and I turned to my friends and asked 'what was that; is some jerk shooting
off firecrackers?' And, uh, then I heard the second one, and this time I
knew what had happened, because I saw the president's motion, and then the
third shot came very, very quickly, on top of the second one..."
"But one thing I am totally positive of in my own mind is how many shots
there were. And there were three shots. The second two shots were
immediate --- it was almost as if one were an echo of the other -- they
came so quickly. The sound of one did not cease until the second shot."
BTW, you can view and hear a Quicktime file of this critical part of
Woodward's recollection at the following address:
DDesalles
lampost in the z film? This woman is also clear in the Altgens photo.
DD
Jerry
It's fine that Mary perceived two shots so close together than one
could be an echo of the other. Of course that doesn't mean there were
two such shots.
What we see are both men hit be a shot in the Z-220s and then JFK hit
at Z-313.
Nobody can see anything in the Z-film that implies shots being closely
spaced or bunched.
Where witnesses disagree with the Z-film -- for example when they say
that the limo *stopped* -- then, I conclude they're wrong.
That's just common sense, isn't it?
Jerry
In article <reharris-310...@dialip111.spinn.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Robert Harris
> Robert, I have a copy here at the Museum. My scanner is down at present
> but I will send to you when available.
Tom,
I would appreciate that - thanks. If you can send it in an attachment,
that would be fine.
Bob Harris
Robert Harris
> Bob,
>
> It's fine that Mary perceived two shots so close together than one
> could be an echo of the other. Of course that doesn't mean there were
> two such shots.
Alone, that probably doesn't. But Woodward's statement is roughly 1% of
the proof for this thing.
>
> What we see are both men hit be a shot in the Z-220s and then JFK hit
> at Z-313.
I fully agree, but no-one heard that shot, including John Connally, who
was hit at precisely Z223.
>
> Nobody can see anything in the Z-film that implies shots being closely
> spaced or bunched.
Nonsense.
There were 5 very clear, startle reactions, all beginning within the same
1/6th of a second. That includes Zapruder blurring the first of a series
of frames that convinced Dr. Alvarez that he was startled by a loud noise
at Z285.
You can see these reactions in the following animated GIF
http://www.c-works.com/jfk/shot.gif
Kellerman's reaction is perhaps the most definitive. Look at a blowup of
him at:
http://www.c-works.com/jfk/royducks.gif
And then we have Jean Hill's double take, beginning another 6th of a
second after the others. She snaps her head away from Kennedy to the rear
and then back again. See her at this address:
http://www.c-works.com/jfk/shot2.gif
Of course J. Hill, like Brehm and Moorman on either side of her, described
hearing a flurry of shots beginning just as the limo passed in front of
her. Her visible reaction matches her statement perfectly.
And finally, we have Clint Hill who said he had turned to the left, heard
a shot, and then jumped from the limo. Hill only heard two of the shots,
the first of which had to have been the one at Z285. When asked when
Kennedy first reacted, Hill replied (mistakenly of course), at the same
time that he jumped from the running board.
Obviously, Hill was oblivious to Kennedy being hit earlier, which explains
why it took him so long to react. It also explains why, in the Altgens
photo, he was the only one on the running boards, to fail to turn around,
or respond to the first audible shot.
You can read more about that in my recent posting,.. "Understanding Clint
Hill".
>
> Where witnesses disagree with the Z-film -- for example when they say
> that the limo *stopped* -- then, I conclude they're wrong.
Yes, the witnesses certainly made mistakes, which as in Hill's case, are
often the most revealing parts of their testimonies. But there are usually
good explanations for their errors. Certainly, the limo did slow down
significantly, after Greer panicked and hit the brake. From behind the
limo, it was probably hard to tell if it was moving or not. Also, some of
the cars further back, did come to a full stop, which probably made some
people think the limo did to.
Robert Harris
Tony Pitman
>In article <7qphdr$4fh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Jerry <jer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> It's fine that Mary perceived two shots so close together than one
>> could be an echo of the other. Of course that doesn't mean there were
>> two such shots.
>
>
>Alone, that probably doesn't. But Woodward's statement is roughly 1% of
>the proof for this thing.
Yes. What did Allen Dulles say? About 5-1 said the final two (at
least) audible shots were bunched.
>> What we see are both men hit be a shot in the Z-220s and then JFK hit
>> at Z-313.
>
>
>I fully agree, but no-one heard that shot, including John Connally, who
>was hit at precisely Z223.
I dont think you can see any such thing.
>> Nobody can see anything in the Z-film that implies shots being closely
>> spaced or bunched.
>
>Nonsense.
Nonsense is right. How can you see noise?
>> Where witnesses disagree with the Z-film -- for example when they say
>> that the limo *stopped* -- then, I conclude they're wrong.
>
>Yes, the witnesses certainly made mistakes, which as in Hill's case, are
>often the most revealing parts of their testimonies. But there are usually
>good explanations for their errors. Certainly, the limo did slow down
>significantly, after Greer panicked and hit the brake. From behind the
>limo, it was probably hard to tell if it was moving or not. Also, some of
>the cars further back, did come to a full stop, which probably made some
>people think the limo did to.
>
>
>
>Robert Harris
But almost everyone at that part of Elm St, including the motorcycle
cops following did see this. They did not say it stopped BTW. They
said it either stopped very briefly or almost did so.
You might conclude they are wrong Jerry but you were not there and the
possibility that the film was tampered with has not yet been entirely
ruled out.
Not only does the limmo not stop in the film but it doesn't even
appear to pause.
They say it maybe slowed from 12 mph to around 8 mph but it is not
very evident in the film and does not agree at all with the witness
testimony.
Hill covered the distance pretty quick considering it was going at
that speed but then he also said the final head shot came as he
reached the limmo.
Tony
Robert Harris
(Tony Pitman) wrote:
> On 4 Sep 1999 05:47:53 GMT, reha...@spinn.net (Robert Harris) wrote:
>
> >In article <7qphdr$4fh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Jerry <jer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Bob,
> >>
> >> It's fine that Mary perceived two shots so close together than one
> >> could be an echo of the other. Of course that doesn't mean there were
> >> two such shots.
> >
> >
> >Alone, that probably doesn't. But Woodward's statement is roughly 1% of
> >the proof for this thing.
>
>
> Yes. What did Allen Dulles say? About 5-1 said the final two (at
> least) audible shots were bunched.
Yes, though before John jumps in here, I should point out that Dulles only
said the ratio could be as high as 5:1. He also asked the others if they
thought it was only 2:1 or 3:1. But he was obviously expressing his
astonishment that so many recalled the same pattern.
>
>
> >> What we see are both men hit be a shot in the Z-220s and then JFK hit
> >> at Z-313.
> >
> >
> >I fully agree, but no-one heard that shot, including John Connally, who
> >was hit at precisely Z223.
>
>
> I dont think you can see any such thing.
Tony, I would direct you to two images at my FTP site. The first, is a
blowup of JBC at Z223. I think it is apparent that the expulsion of matter
from his chest wound has caused his tie to be blown to the left, and the
right side of his jacket to be blown open. Here is the address:
ftp://www.c-works.com/connally_at_223.jpg
I also posted this animated GIF, which zooms in on JBC during the Z220's:
I suppose we all have to make our own call on this, but I see Connally
being hit at 223.
>
>
> >> Nobody can see anything in the Z-film that implies shots being closely
> >> spaced or bunched.
> >
> >Nonsense.
>
>
> Nonsense is right. How can you see noise?
There are two visible effects of this shot, Tony.
The first is the pattern of blurred frames in 1/3 second or 6 frame
increments. After Z285, frames are blurred at Z290-291, Z296, and at
Z302-303. They match almost perfectly with the pattern following Z312, at
318, 324, and 331. There are other aspects to this as well, but Dr.
Alvarez expressed no doubt at all that Zapruder was startled by a loud
noise at Z285.
Unfortunately, Alvarez was a staunch WC defender and could not bring
himself to conclude that this was a shot. So he, by his own admission,
guessed at a cause, suggesting that a siren may have went off then. Of
course, none of the witnesses heard a siren until well after the shooting
had ended, including the people who operated them.
The other visual evidence is the easily seen reactions of the limo
occupants. Every nonvictim in the limo, ducked, beginning within a sixth
of a second of Zapruder's first blurring, except Greer. He was turned to
the rear then and physically, could not. But his reaction was to spin back
to the front within about 3 frames, so fast that some critics suggested
his turn was physically impossible, and evidence of forgery in the film.
In his panic, he then hit the brake, which is why the limo slowed down so
drastically.
You can see these reactions in the following file:
http://www.c-works.com/jfk/shot.gif
Also,
http://www.c-works.com/jfk/shot.gif
Kellerman's reaction is probably the most conclusive. As he ducked, during
the Z290's, you can see his left hand rise to shield his left ear. Also,
watch the little twist in his head. The address is:
http://www.c-works.com/jfk/shot.gif
Now, I understand that the first thought everyone has, is to try to
interpret all of these reactions as having nothing to do with a gunshot.
That would be fine, except for the fact that every one of them, including
Zapruder's, began within 1/6th of a second of one another.
The ladies may well have decided that it was just time to check on their
hubbies, but isn't it odd that Nellie had that thought 1/18th of a second
after Jackie did, and 1/18th of a second before Greer started his
breakneck turn, and Kellerman started to drop his head - and 1/18th of a
second after Zapruder blurred that first frame.
The proof is in the timing, Tony. For all of those reactions to have begun
in such perfect unison through sheer coincidence, defies all the laws of
probability.
And of course, every one of those nonvictims in the limo testified in one
way or another, that the final shots came at the very end. Jackie heard
the "terrible noises" only *after* she heard JBC shouting.
Nellie heard the final two shots *after* she looked back at JFK and saw
his hands up near his throat.
Kellerman heard the final shots *after* he looked back over his left
shoulder, and described a "flurry" of two or more shots.
Greer heard the final two shots, after he had turned around. As you
pointed out, he did contradict himself in one isolated sentence Tony. But
his repeated claims that the final shots were almost "simultaneous", makes
it very clear what he really meant to say.
And if you still don't buy the shot at Z285, consider the fact that Brehm,
J. Hill, and Mary Moorman, all described hearing a flurry of shots as the
limo passed in front of them, or was about to pass in front of them. Now,
look at the limo's position relative to those witnesses at Z285. What do
you see, Tony?
And remember, Clint Hill said the first of the two shots he heard was
fired, just as a small group in a grassy area was watching the motorcade
pass in front of them. The Brehm/Hill/Moorman group, along with B. Lady
and Brehm's kid, is the only group the limo passes, prior to 313, that
matches Hill's description.
I have more evidence too, Tony. If this isn't enough, let me know and
we'll talk about another dozen or two, key witnesses. The timing of many
of their actions can be pinpointed through the Zfilm or Altgens photo, and
clearly places the final shots at the very end of the attack.
>
>
> >> Where witnesses disagree with the Z-film -- for example when they say
> >> that the limo *stopped* -- then, I conclude they're wrong.
> >
> >Yes, the witnesses certainly made mistakes, which as in Hill's case, are
> >often the most revealing parts of their testimonies. But there are usually
> >good explanations for their errors. Certainly, the limo did slow down
> >significantly, after Greer panicked and hit the brake. From behind the
> >limo, it was probably hard to tell if it was moving or not. Also, some of
> >the cars further back, did come to a full stop, which probably made some
> >people think the limo did to.
> >
> >
> >
> >Robert Harris
>
>
> But almost everyone at that part of Elm St, including the motorcycle
> cops following did see this. They did not say it stopped BTW. They
> said it either stopped very briefly or almost did so.
Well, "almost stopped" is good enough I suppose. I don't think we really
have a debate here, do we?
> You might conclude they are wrong Jerry but you were not there and the
> possibility that the film was tampered with has not yet been entirely
> ruled out.
> Not only does the limo not stop in the film but it doesn't even
> appear to pause.
But it really does slow down quite a bit, Tony. And it's slowdown matches
perfectly with its motion in the Nix and Muchmore films. Even Mantik
admits that, or at least, he used to.
> They say it maybe slowed from 12 mph to around 8 mph but it is not
> very evident in the film and does not agree at all with the witness
> testimony.
> Hill covered the distance pretty quick considering it was going at
> that speed but then he also said the final head shot came as he
> reached the limo.
Hill jumped in reaction to the Z285 shot, Tony. I think his ears were
ringing afterward, and that he didn't hear, or at least, recognize Z312.
What he probably did recall, was the shot that followed the first head
wound. He also recalled a "double-sound" and seemed to reject the idea
that he was thinking of the bullet striking the head, as one of those
noises.
Robert Harris
Robert Harris
6489mc...@vms.csd.mu.edu (John McAdams) wrote:
> On 4 Sep 1999 05:26:14 GMT, reha...@spinn.net (Robert Harris) wrote:
>
> >In article <37CDDE...@mu.edu>, John McAdams <6489mc...@mu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> Tom Bowden wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Robert, I have a copy here at the Museum. My scanner is down at present
> >> > but I will send to you when available.
> >> >
> >> > Quote from Article dated November 23, 1963 Section 1 -3.
> >> > ............
> >> >
> >> > "After acknowledging our cheers, he faced forward again and suddenly a
> >> > horrible ear-shattering noise coming from behind and a little to the
> >> > right. My first reaction, and also my friends', was that as a joke,
> >> > someone had backfired their car. Apparently the driver and occupants of
> >> > the President's car had the same impression, because instead of speeding
> >> > up, the car came almost to a halt.
> >> >
> >> > Things are a little hazy from this point, but I don't believe anyone was
> >> > hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs. Kennedy turned and
> >> > looked around, as if they, too, did'nt believe the noise was really
coming
> >> > from a gun.
> >> >
> >> > Then after a monent's pause there was another shot and I saw the
President
> >> > start slumping in the car.
> >> >
> >> > This was followed rapidly by another shot. Mrs Kennedy stood up in the
> >> > car, then fell on top of her husband's body. Not until this minute
did it
> >> > sink in what actually was happening......"
> >> >
> >> > later on in article
> >> >
> >> > "about 10 feet from where we were standing, a man and woman had thrown
> >> > their small child to the ground and covered his body with theirs.
> >> > Apparently the bullets had whizzed directly over their heads."
> >> >
> >>
> >> Isn't the "10 feet" figure grossly inaccurate? I don't have the Groden
> >> picture book here at home, but I don't remember any women standing this
> >> close to the Newmans.
> >>
> >> I think we can file this one under the "witnesses are bad at estimating
> >> distances" category.
> >
> >
> >I don't think so.
> >
> >There were two ladies standing in front of the lamp post, roughly 10 feet
> >east of the Newmans and directly across the road from Brehm. I suspect
> >that one of them was Woodard, which is one reason I would like to find
> >that original article.
> >
>
> But Peter posted that there were *three* of her women friends with
> her. So that would require four women, not two.
Maybe they were standing further east.
Whoever those ladies were, at the lampost, I would love to get their
recollections.
Maybe somebody else out there has the answer to this.
Robert Harris
L. Jane Goldsmith
(their little boy), I think. The Newmans had 2 little boys, and the mother
covered one and the father covered the other.