Miscellaneous Information on the Carcano
Raymond
Adam Consolidated (CRESCENT FIREARMS)
"Three American firms entered the competition for the 91s that the
Italian Defense Ministry was selling. Adam Consolidated, in
conjunction with the Feldsott brothers,who won the bidding with a
total offer of $ 1,776,OOO for the approximately 570,000 guns." "...
Some 5300 kilos (approx. 1200 Pounds) of parts were included in the
contract price. Adam also purchased 2,608,704 rounds of
ammunition, which were picked up and paid for as items separate from
the surplus weapons, on three occasions."
Aug. 8, 1960 ....................653,176 cartridges 6.5 mm
July 31, 1961.................... 1,304,352 same
June 6, 1962 ..................... 652,176 same
The price was $13.57 per thousand, or somewhat more than a penny per
bullet.
---- THE GUN - Henry S. Bloomgarden
Apparently, thousands of these Italian rifles were sold in the US
before Crescent won the above bid. Klein's was selling the 7.35 mm as
early as the spring of 1958 In their ad of 4-58, the MANNLICHER HIGH
POWER RIFLE sold for $12.95- Good outside, very good inside. A very
good outside-Excellent inside sold for $14.95 and an Excellent inside
and outside cost $16.95. For 98 cents, a leather sling was available
and a cleaning rod cost 79 cents. Military ammo in clips of six-12 for
98 cents- 48 for $2.98.
The following month-the same ad, but the sling and rod were included
free. From 7-58 until 10-60, Klein's did not
advertise any MCs. Then, in 10-60 appeared their ad for the CUSTOM
SPORTERIZED MODEL for $19.88.
In 3-62 the 6.5 mm was advertised for $11.88. AMERICAN RIFLEMAN . In
1958, Congressman Morano was pleading : "Let's find out where some of
these Carcano rifles have gone." Macy's and Sears Roebuck , as well
as sporting supply stores, discount stores and Army-and-Navy-surplus
stores sold the weapon and the ammo.
Some of these guns came from Finland:
"During the first winter of the war with Russia, Finland procured from
Sweden approximately 15,000 Swedish 6.5 mm M 96 Mausers and 6.5 mm
ammunition which Finland decided to manufacture for these weapons
during WW II. Finland received, in addition, a supply of Italian M38,
7.35 mm carbines via Germany during WW II. Both weapons saw limited
service as they were relegated to use by the stationary troops, such
as guards on bridges, airfields, railways, waterworks, etc. Today ,
the greater portion of the M 38 carbines Finland received can be
traced to the U.S. market as surplus war goods."
----- FROM- BOOK OF RIFLES
I have noticed that there is an interest in the Carcano, its costs,
and also questions about the ammunition. Do yourselves a favor and see
you can still buy this book -THE MARKETING OF A WEAPON. The book was
produced by Gary Nivaggi, in Dec. 1994. In the late 50's and early
60's, many varieties, styles and calibers of the MC rifles were
offered at low prices. ( I recently sold my copy on eBay.)
Nivaggi has photo-copied, from he pages of "American Rifleman" the
marketing of the weapon for the years 1958-1964. Included are full
sized copies of Klein's Sporting Goods ads . Also, ads from various
other dealers and distributors, all selling MCs and MC ammo. The book
contains questions regarding the MC; various ammo loads for it; its
clip, and other great information about the stopping and "knockdown"
capabilities of firearm projectiles. All from the pages of American
Rifleman.
Many questions being asked will all be answered if you own THE
MARKETING OF A WEAPON.
Another book that will provide valuable information that comes from a
real expert on the Carcano. Contact Richard Hobbs, 3958 Cambridge Rd.
# 162, Cameron Park, CA 95682. (Last address I have of Hobbs) Search
bio on Hobbs
Hobbs is a collector of Carcanos since 1945 and probably knows more
about the weapon than anyone in this country. His book: THE CARCANO
Italy's Military Rifle.(About $18.00) He is not a JFK "BUFF."- but he
sure knows that weapon. If you own these two books, you will hardly
ever have a question about the Carcano again.
Also see: http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/armindex.htm
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc.htm
http://www.carbinesforcollectors.com/carcano.
"The sling is not a standard rifle sling but appears to be a musical
instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag." 3H
397 SA Frazier, FBI.
The sling on the TSBD rifle was a part of a U.S. Air Force holster and
harness set, patented by Norris N. Murray, on March 6, 1956, patent
No. 2,819,830. ( see U.S. Military Holsters and Pistol cartridge
Boxes By Edward Scott Meadows, 1987 , 376.)
And, the alleged Oswald (TSBD) rifle was not just another Italian
surplus Carcano. The rifle was part of a small lot of rifles that were
specially ordered to be the rifles of the Guardie del Duce, an elite
group of one hundred men charged with the job of guarding Mussolini .
The stocks were thinner, lighter and were dyed black. ( R.HOBBS, The
Carcano, Italy's Military Rifle)
And, it was not the rifle that LHO had delivered in the spring of
1963. The TSBD weapon was a longer rifle by four inches with sling
swivels on the side of the rifle. The backyard photo rifle had the
swivels on the bottom . The problem!! The rifle delivered from
Klein's had the serial number C-2766. So did the TSBD rifle . That
can't be, unless someone changed the number, which would have been
very easy to do. This weapon had the serial number on the back end of
the barrel, where it screws into the receiver . A simple matter of
minutes to remove and not much more to remove and replace the serial
number. Which means, if I am right, the rifle in the National Archives
has a number that it did not have prior to 11-22-63.
From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:
"Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!! About
six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to read
C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite simple" (Oh,
by the way, my MC is a 36") If I wanted to frame somebody - I would
get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a
duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene
of the crime"
Martha Moyer
Numerous people have compared the photos taken by Marina with photos
of the murder weapon and agree that they are not the same weapon.
SEE THE SECOND CARCANO
http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html
http://www.geocities.com/jfkinfo/hscexhib.htm
Its a matter of record that there was another MC rifle with the #2766,
that found its way from Montreal to Chicago.The Chicago vendor was
Alden's. This was the only MC with that number. Italy used the same
numbering system as Germany
The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial number,
progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
alphabet -A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
in Feb. 1963. See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain ,
since there were hundreds of thousands of rifles, many would have the
same number, however the prefix would be different. The FBI did
locate
a rifle with the serial number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
Numbering system information is from BOOK OF RIFLES by W.H.B.Smith
and Joseph Smith Forward by
J.B. Sweet Brig, Gen,USA Ret, senior editor Copyright 1948 by The
National Rifle Association (Great book to own)
The invoice of Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods, Limited ,in Montreal
Canada, dated June 29, 1962, reflects the sale of 700 used Italian
rifles to Century Arms of St. Albens, Vermont. Exhibit D 156 was
furnished by the owner of Century Arms on March 11, 1964 to the FBI.
ORIGINAL LIST of serial numbers of 700 Carcano Italian carbines
Received by Century Arms, Inc, from Empire: Serial number 2766 appears
on last page of numbers (Exhibit D 103) See COMM. Exhibit No. 2562 #
13 Warren Report It is almost impossible that two Carcanos would have
identical serial numbers unless someone altered them. (which I suspect
was done in Dallas to frame LHO)
Meagher dealt with the 2766 serial number, but at the time, didn't
understand the numbering system or the Canada connection.
By the way, all serial numbers were not on the barrel. Some were on
the receiver, and even on the stock, some on more than one place. John
Cahill, in VA, has four Carcanos and two serial numbers are on the
receiver, two on the barrel.
There is so much to be explained about how and where the Carcanos were
made that it could never be done on this forum. Guns marked Terni may
not have been made there. They could have been made in a small plant
elsewhere and called the Terni rifle. Some parts were made in small
plants and assembled at Terni, thus the Terni name .
Because the guns looked alike, (the 7.35 mm and the 6.5 mm ) the
manufacturers stamped 7.35 on the stock of some weapons so the troops
knew what ammo to use.
Walt
>
> "The sling is not a standard rifle sling but appears to be a musical
> instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag." 3H
> 397 SA Frazier, FBI.
>
> The sling on the TSBD rifle was a part of a U.S. Air Force holster and
> harness set, patented by Norris N. Murray, on March 6, 1956, patent
> No. 2,819,830. ( see U.S. Military Holsters and Pistol cartridge
> Boxes By Edward Scott Meadows, 1987 , 376.)
This is BS...created by that lyin urine examiner.....Dr Peeslinger..
or whatever his name was.
The sling is not a sling at all...at least not a sling as the US
military uses it. US military uses the leather or canvas straps on
the rifles for the dual purpose of carrying the rifle and as a way of
getting a more secure grip on the rifle for more accurate firing.
The "sling" on a Mannlicher Carcano serves only to carry the rifle.
The strap is used to carry the rifle across a soldiers back while
freeing his hands from the burden. There are many photos available
that show Italian soldiers with the rifle slung across their backs.
They did not carry the rifle hanging from their shoulder as American
soldiers do. The Italian method of carrying the rifle made it more
difficult, and slower, to ready it for firing. The exception to the
usual Italian method of carrying the rifle across the back were
Mussolini's body guards. Mussolini had an elite corps of body guards
called the "Guardie Del Duce". They had custom black and silver
uniforms, with glossy black helmets, belts, and boots.
The stocks of their model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcanos were stained black
and they were equipped with custom slings, of glossy black leather,
with a wide leather shoulder pad attached by rings to the sling. This
shoulder pad was designed to relieve the fatigue, and pressure, on the
guards shoulders when they stood for long hours with the rifle hanging
from their shoulders.
The rifle that was found in the TSBD is a very rare Guardie del duce
rifle that was equiooed with one of those custom slings. The colored
photo of the TSBD rifle that appeared in the November 1983 issue of
LIFE magazine shows that the rifle stock is stained black as the
Guardie Del Duce rifles were, and it has the custom sling
attached.
> SEE THE SECOND CARCANOhttp://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.htmlhttp://www.geocities.com/jfkinfo/hscexhib.htm
curtjester1
> On 27 Feb, 01:21, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
where this CIA OP (Robert Morrow) was in the middle of Shaw, Ferrie,
Oswald, Cuba and assignments, and says the 7.35's were brought in
because they were good sniping rifles, and they had known of Oswald's
purchase of the 6.65 one, and were going to use the weapons in the
blaming of Oswald for the killing of the President?
The book is Betrayal
CJ
> > http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc.htmhttp://www.carbin....
> > SEE THE SECOND CARCANOhttp://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.htmlhttp://www.geocities.co...
>
> > Its a matter of record that there was another MC rifle with the #2766,
> > that found its way from Montreal to Chicago.The Chicago vendor was
> > Alden's. This was the only MC with that number. Italy used the same
> > numbering system as Germany
>
> > The Italian arms manufacturers used the same consecutive marking
> > system that the Germans used for identification, serial numbers,
> > manufacturing plant, etc.. It began with a three digit serial number,
> > progressed through the thousand numbers. Example: 000-9999, then began
> > a prefix system. Example: A 111- A 9999. This progressed through the
> > alphabet -A-Z and AA-ZZ, etc..This system can be better understood by
> > looking at the serial numbers on the 100 rifles delivered to Klein's
> > in Feb. 1963. See Warren - Waldman exhibit #4. It is almost certain ,
> > since there were hundreds of thousands of rifles, many would have the
> > same number, however the prefix would be different. The FBI did
> > locate
> > a rifle with the serial number 2766, while the LHO rifle was C-2766.
>
> > Numbering system information is from BOOK OF RIFLES by W.H.B.Smith
> > and Joseph Smith Forward by
> > J.B. Sweet Brig, Gen,USA Ret, senior editor Copyright 1948 by The
> > National Rifle Association (Great book to
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Raymond
> On Feb 27, 10:44�am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:> On 27 Feb, 01:21, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Hey Walt, you know anything about any 7.35 MC's? �I am reading a book
> where this CIA OP (Robert Morrow) was in the middle of Shaw, Ferrie,
> Oswald, Cuba and assignments, and says the 7.35's were brought in
> because they were good sniping rifles, and they had known of Oswald's
> purchase of the 6.65 one, and were going to use the weapons in the
> blaming of Oswald for the killing of the President?
>
> The book is Betrayal
>
> CJ
CJ
The Rifle 6.5 mm M1938 (Mannlicher-Carcano 91/38)
This rifle became of international interest when President John F
Kennedy, 35th President of the United States, was assassinated on 22
November 1963. An example of the Mannlicher-Carcano was originally
presumed to have been used by the assassin since one was found nearby,
but later detail investigations have thrown doubt on this. The 6.5 mm
MC was produced in 1940 at the Italian arsenal at Terni. In 1938, with
the introduction of the more powerful 7.35 mm cartridge, a new short
rifle and two patterns of carbines chambered for this cartridge were
introduced, all with fixed sights. The entrance of Italy into World
War 2 in 1940, with insufficient supplies of ammunition at hand,
caused second thoughts on the use of another cartridge and that same
year the 6.5 mm was reintroduced, and Carcanos manufactured from that
date were again chambered for the 6.5 mm cartridge. There were
relatively few 7.35 mm MCs manufactured.
RE: Cuba and assignments, and says the 7.35's were brought in because
they were good sniping rifles, and they had known of Oswald's purchase
of the 6.65 one, and were going to use the weapons in the blaming of
Oswald for the killing of the President?
(A highly unlikely story)
They were not a better sniping rifle and they would hardly use a 7:35
to frame him if they knew that LHO had purchased a 6.5 mm MC
(Not Walt) .Excuse my injecting my thoughts. I thought I would add
what I know about the 7:35 mm.Carcano. Perhaps Walt knows more about
the different weapons,and will
submit his own information
--- Raymond
Walt
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
The 7.35 cartridge was adopted by the Italian Army in 1938. There
were three Mannlicher Carcano weapons designed to fire the new 7.35 X
53 mm cartridge. They were the 40 inch Model 38 Short Rifle, the 36
inch Cavalry Carbine, and the 36 inch Troop special. None of them
were good sniper rifles ( long range weapons) because of the short
barrels and the fixed iron sights. Their value to the CIA lay in the
fact that they are very easy with simple modifications to make into
easily concealable assassination weapons. Naturally the 36 ich Cav
carbine and the 36 inch troop special were slighly more desirable than
the 4 inch longer short rifle. The Troop special was slightly more
desirable than the Cav Carbine because the cav carbine had a folding
bayonet attached to the front sight.
Morrow claimed that he modified three 40 inch Model 38's to be used as
assassination weapons in Cuba.
The shortest length a 40" Model 38 can be reduced to is 26 1/2 inches
While the 36" Troop Special can be reduced to 23 1/4 inches. That 3
1/4 inch diference makes the Troop Special a little more concealable
than the Short Rifle, and therefore a better choice to be modified to
an assassination weapon.
I know Morrow's story, .........but I have no idea why he was ordered
to buy MC's that were designed to fire the 7.35 X 53 cartridge. The
7.35 weapons were not nearly as plentyful as the same rifles in
6.5mm. I've long thought that there was a foul up in Dallas, and
someone thought that a modified 36 inch MC was going to be planted in
the TSBD. That's where all of this crap about Oswald disassembling
the rifle had it's roots. If a modified 36 inch Carcano had been
planted in the TSBD, then the cops could made everything fit in the
framing of Oswald. What I'm saying is;.... A modified 36 inch carbine
could have been quickly and easily disassembled to a length of 23 1/4
inches by removing only two screws. That length would have fit in the
paper sack that Buell Frazier saw on the back seat of his car. The
foul up is probably also responsible for the arguments that Oswald
ordered a 36 inch carbine. Someone thought that Oswald had bought a
36 inch carbine and had modified it as an assassination rifle....and
that's the data the conspirators were working with when they said they
had found the sack that Oswald used to smuggle the gun into the
building....Imagine the panic when they discovered that the sack they
had was about over a foot too short to contain the 36 MC
(disassembled) TSBD rifle.
Raymond
The Paper Sack
The largest component of the disassembled rifle is the stock, which
measures approximately 36 inches. There is no way that it could fit in
the package that Randle described. Warren Commission lawyer Joseph
Ball asked Randle about the length of the package, and asked her to
fold it to the proper size:
http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/papersac.htm
More on the Paper Sack:
The Warren Commission believed and concluded that Oswald 1) Took
paper and tape from the wrapping bench of the Depository and fashioned
a bag large enough to carry the disassembled rifle; 2) Removed the
rifle from the blanket in the Paine's garage on Thursday evening and
carried the weapon into the Depository building on Friday morning
concealed in the bag; and 4) Left the bag alongside the window from
which the shots were fired.
The Commission also concluded that the bag containing the rifle
was seen by Wesley Frazier, who worked with Lee Oswald, who also lived
in Irving and drove Oswald to work on the morning of the
assassination. Frazier later testified that Lee told him that the bag
contained curtain rods to be used in his rented room in Dallas
When the bag was found next to the window, it was examined and
dusted for prints, as was the rifle when it was found.. No prints were
found. Later, "Using a standard chemical method involving silver
nitrates the FBI Laboratory developed a latent palm print and latent
fingerprint on the bag." (WR,p. 135) S.F. Latona, of the FBI Latent
Fingerprint Section, identified the print as the right palm print of
Lee Oswald. The FBI concluded that "No other identifiable prints were
found on the bag" despite the fact that the bag had been handled by
numerous people. The bag was found by Marvin Johnson, a Homicide and
Robbery Bureau detective with the Dallas Police and his partner L.D
Montgomery. From Johnson's testimony:
"We found this brown paper sack or case. It was made of heavy
wrapping paper. Actually, it looked similar to the paper that those
books was wrapped in. It was just a long narrow paper bag...I know
that the first I saw of it, L.D. Montgomery, my partner, picked it up
off the floor, and it was folded up and he unfolded it... It was
folded then he unfolded it... It was folded then refolded, It was a
fairly small package." (Vol. VII, P. 103).
Detective Johnson gave the bag to Lt.J.C.Day who examined it and
turned it over to Detective Hicks and Studebaker, who took it to
headquarters along with other equipment, (Vol.IV, pp267, 268; CE626).
Lt.Day noticed that there was a similar paper and tape of the
same width as that used to make the homemade bag somewhere else in the
Book Depository.
From Day's testimony:
Mr.Day. " On the first floor of the Texas Book Depository, and I
noticed from the wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar-
the tape was of the same width as the bag... I directed one of the
officers standing by me, I don't know which, to get a piece of the
paper from the wrapping bench." (Vol. IV,p.268)
Lt. Day did not take any pictures of the wrapping bench on the
day of the assassination, but returned to the building on April 13,
1964 and took three pictures of the area (CE 730, 731, 732) and told
Commission Counsel Belin, "I don't think the benches had been changed
since the November shooting." (Vol.IV, p268)
"Mr. Belin: Do you recognize at any point on any of the exhibits
the actual tape machine that was used?
Mr. Day: The one that we removed this from was the north roll
and the tape on the east side of the bench.
Mr. Belin: You are now pointing at Exhibit 730. I notice a roll
of paper underneath the bench in the center of the picture. Is that
where you got the big paper, the main paper on Commission Exhibit
677?
Mr. Day: Yes , Sir. To the best of my knowledge that is the roll
we tore the paper off of." (Vol.IV,p.268)
The Depository normally used approximately one roll of paper
every 3 working days. (Not all from the same roll-average total
usage). Of course, Lt. Day did not mean that his sample came from the
same roll of paper yhat he photographed 5 months after the shooting,
and CE 730,731 and 732 clearly show that there were many working areas
with many rolls of wrapping paper and at least 3 visible portable tape
machines. Despite the variety of paper and tape machines available for
sampling, on November 22,Lt. Day was still able to select the exact
roll of paper and the precise tape machine that Oswald allegedly used
for material to fashion his alleged rifle case. How fortunate it would
be to have a person like Lt.Day as a companion at the racetrack, on a
bad day, to help in making race selections.
Mr.Belin wondered about the tape machines:
Mr. Belin: Were there other tape machines there also?
Mr. Day: Yes, but I didn't notice them at the time."
(Vol.IV,p.268).
So much has been discussed and written about the treatment of
the bag by the Dallas Police Department and the FBI, after the bag was
found, that I will not belabor that aspect of the topic. It will be my
purpose to suggest that there was no need for Lee Oswald to snitch
paper or tape from the Book Depository since the rifle within the
blanket, in the Paine's garage was already wrapped in paper.
There is strong evidence that the rifle found on the sixth floor
and used to kill President Kennedy was not Oswald's rifle. The sixth
floor murder weapon may have been brought into the building in a bag
made from materials from the shipping room, but Oswald did not make
the bag or carry a rifle into the building in a bag made from
Depository wrapping paper. A bag for Lee's rifle was unnecessary - he
did not have to make a bag. Lee's Mannlicher-Carcano had been wrapped
in paper and placed in a "rustic" blanket in late September in New
Orleans, and transported by Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald to Texas and
the floor of the Paine's garage where it was observed and maintained
by the Paines until it was removed from the blanket sometime before
the morning of November 22, 1963.
On Friday, September 20, 1963, Ruth Paine arrived in New Orleans
on her way back to Dallas after a vacation in the east and mid-west.
Ruth planned on returning Marina to Dallas with her while Lee looked
for work in Houston. Ruth and her two children stayed the weekend with
the Oswalds and planned to leave for Texas on Monday, September 23.
Lee had packed all of their belongings and, on Monday, loaded Ruth's
station wagon for the trip.
In Priscilla Johnson McMillans book Marina and Lee (New
York:Harper&Row, 1977), the author describes the loading of the
station wagon as told to her by Marina Oswald:
"What she (Ruth) did not know was that among the items he was
loading with such care in her car was almost certainly his
rifle,wrapped in brown paper and a blanket and tied up in
heavystring..." (p.370)
And more:
"...When she was certain Ruth could not see her she crept into
the garage, to the place where Lee kept the rifle wrapped in paper
inside the heavy blanket, a green and brown wool blanket of East
German make that she had bought in Russia." ( p. 429)
In Marina's conversation with the Warren Commission, she
testified that, while looking for crib parts, she opened the blanket
only to see the butt end of Lee's rifle. She was not asked if the
rifle was wrapped in paper. However, she was asked by General Counsel
Rankin if she ever saw the rifle in a paper cover. Marina
answered "No." (Vol.1,p.67) Today, with a better understanding of
English, a "paper cover" might elicit a different answer.
Mike Paine, who had moved the blanket in the garage more than
once, was asked by the Commission if he had the impression that there
may have been any paper inside the blanket. His answer:
No, I didn't have that impression nothing crinkled, no sound.
Mr. Liebeler: Was there any indication by the crinkling or
otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket?
Mr. Paine: That's right.
Paine's vague answer, "That is right," did not satisfy Liebeler
who returned to the blanket and how it was wrapped. Confused, Paine
said, "I can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because I could
grab my hand around the PAPER whereas this end, I think it was folded
over." (Vol. IX, p.439)
When Ruth Paine testified before the Commission in Washington,
she claimed to have wrapping paper at her home in Irving that was
similar to the paper used to make the homemade bag found in the Book
Depository.
Later, when members of the Commission staff went to the Paine
home to examine the paper, Mr.Jenner took a sample of the paper
provided to him by Mrs. Paine. He took a sample 3 feet 1 inch in
length and marked it as Ruth Paine Exhibit 272. This exhibit appears
in Vol.XXI, p. 3. In the contents of Volume XXI, this exhibit is
titled: Sample of wrapping paper kept by Ruth Paine in her home.
In reality, this evidence and its claims are misleading and
irrelevant. It has no connection with the assassination since this
roll was purchased after the event. This, however, did not stop
Assistant Counsel Albert Jenner from using the sample to mislead
researchers.
At the time of jenner's visit to the Paine home, Mrs. Paine was
asked where she kept wrapping paper. She went to the kitchen-dining
room area and took a tube of wrapping paper from the bottom drawer of
a secretary desk and gave it to Mr.Jenner
"And is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you
had in your home on November 22, 1963?"
Mrs. Paine: No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.
Mr. Jenner: Did you purchase it at the same place that you
purchased the previous wrapping paper?"
Mrs. Paine: I purchased the rolls at SOME dime store.
At this point, Jenner should have realized that the sample was
meaningless as evidence and abandoned the effort, but he went on with
the charade. He had his assistant, Agent Howlett, measure the width of
the paper ( two feet 6 inches ) then cut 3 feet 1 inch from the roll.
Mr. Jenner: We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper... as Ruth
Paine Exhibit No. 272. Would you mark that, please Miss Reporter?
(Vol. IX, p.411)
The average investigator probably would have moved on when he
realized that he was examining a roll of paper that could not have
been used to make a rifle case, but Jenner was determined not to
waste the visit to the Paine home in Irving. And, for the rest of the
evening, Jenner, along with his team of assistants, with their tape
measures in hand, measured everything in sight.
From the testimony:
Mr. Jenner: That your home is well set back, we'll measure it
in a moment, from the street, and it is a generous lawn with some
bushes, that bushes are not as solid as a screen but they are up close
to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree
which I have therefore described as being a generous shade tree about
2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment.
John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the
house to the sidewalk?
At this point, Agent Howlett saved some time by announcing:
"There is no sidewalk. There is a curb."
After a measurement from the house to the curb (42 feet) they
measured the canopy over the porch entrance, length and width (11 feet
in depth and 7 feet three inches from east to west. (Vol.IX, p.413)
Anyone watching this comedy would have taken Jenner for a real
estate salesman preparing a brochure for a home sale. With members of
the Warren Commission indulging in such ridiculous conduct, is it any
wonder why there has never been any real enthusiasm for accepting the
findings of the Warren report?
Walt
Raymond ....I'd like to suggest that you slow down and take this one
step at a time....
You can assume that most folks on this group know the stories and
legends about the various pieces of evidence, therefore you don't need
to post all of the crap about each piece of evidence.
You posted a whole bunch of erroneous information in this post and
I'll not attempt to rebut all of it. But just the opening sentence in
the paragraph above is not true.... Which negates the whole paragraph.
You wrote: "When the bag was found next to the window, it was examined
and dusted for prints" There's at least two different stories about
the discovery of the paper bag. One says it was discovered by Marvin
Johnson and LD Montgomery (but they could remember much about it when
they testified before the WC) and another says that Lt.JC Day found it
and asked Tuly if he'd ever seen it before, and when Truly answered
"NO, Day folded it up and put it in his pocket.
Raymond
>
> and dusted for prints" There's at least two different stories about
> the discovery of the paper bag. One says it was discovered by Marvin
> Johnson and LD Montgomery (but they could remember much about it when
> they testified before the WC) and another says that Lt.JC Day found it
> and asked Tuly if he'd ever seen it before, and when Truly answered
> "NO, Day folded it up and put it in his pocket.
Walt. RE: " and another says that Lt.JC Day found it and asked Tuly
if he'd ever seen it before, and when Truly answered "NO, Day folded
it up and put it in his pocket. "
Montgomery said that Studabaker picked it up.. "Wait a minute--no:I
didn't pick it up. I believe Mr. Studabaker did---we left it laying
right there so they could check it for prints."
Johnson said that his partner, " Montgomery picked it up and WE
unfolded it."
Johnson Vol VII 96-99
Montgomery Vol VII 100-105
Day: Vol.IV 249-278
The bag had been removed by the time Day went to the SE corner to
examine the "hulls"
("hulls"--- Redneck description of shell casings.)
Belin: Did you take it (the bag) down to the station with you?
Day: I didn't take it with me. I left it with the men when I left. I
left Detective Hicks and
Studabaker to bring this in when they brought other equipment in.
Belin: By this you are referring to the bag itself?
Day: Yes sir.
I have never heard about Day finding the paper sack and asking Truly
if he had ever seen it. I would appreciate your source so I don't make
that mistake again.
Am I spelling the TSBD's Manager's name wrong? I thought it was T-R-
U-L-Y I noticed that you spell it Tuly and Truly . Which is correct?
Also RE: "You can assume that most folks on this group know the
stories and
legends about the various pieces of evidence, therefore you don't need
to post all of the crap about each piece of evidence."
I really can't assume that most folks ON THIS GROUP knows the stories
and legends, etc....... I have noticed that you are just about the
only one who is that well informed. In fact, I was about to ask you
when we can expect your book to be in the book stores. It's time that
this case should be put to rest and you can be the one to do it.
The historians will be grateful also. They don't want to make the same
mistakes that I
have been making.
Thanks for the advise. I will try to be more careful in the future.
--- Raymond
Walt. RE: " and another says that Lt.JC Day found it and asked Tuly
if he'd ever seen it before, and when Truly answered "NO, Day folded
it up and put it in his pocket. "
I have never heard about Day finding the paper sack and asking Truly
if he had ever seen it. I would appreciate your source so I don't make
that mistake again.
Walt
> On Feb 27, 9:28 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > On 27 Feb, 19:31, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 27, 7:17�pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On 27 Feb, 16:24, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Feb 27, 10:44�am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:> On 27 Feb, 01:21, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
Raymond....I'm sorry if you were offended by my post. I didn't intend
to be critical of your KNOWLEDGE of the case, I believe you know the
case very well, and I appreciate having yet another person in the
group with a good grasp of the case. The title of this thread is
"Miss info about the Carcano", and CJ asked a question about the
7.35mm Carcano . You did an excellent job of answering although I
thought you presented extraneous information above and beyond what was
required.
I mentioned that I thought there was a foul up in communication among
the conspirators.... and I based that on the fact that they had
planted a bag that was too small to conceal a 40 inch long Model 38,
and they did that because they thought that Oswald had bought a 36
inch Carcano Carbine. They apparently had read the Klein ad and
assumed that Oswald had a 36 inch Carcano carbine that could be
disassembled to a length of 23 1/4 inches. I never intended to get
into the paper bag issue and divert attention from the subject of the
thread.
If in fact the rifle found in the TSBD had been a 36 inch carbine the
story about Oswald smuggling it into the building in a paper sack
would have been plausible. ie; Frazier's estimate of a two foot
length for thje bag on the seat of his car, would have been ample to
conceal a disassembled carbine. The sack found beneath the window
( If that's where it was found?) would have been big enough to conceal
a fully assembled 36 inch carbine.
Raymond
Thanks Walt. There is no problem with changing topics from the weapon
to the
paper sack. It is done often since the two are related. You are
correct about the length of the sack and rifle.. It is even possible
that the paper bag had nothing to do with the murder weapon. Why would
a shooter go to the trouble of neatly refoulding the bag when he was
in such a dangerous position?
As long as we are on the subject of the paper sack, let me add some
more "crap" about it.
I don't believe that LHO was the shooter. However, I believe that he
was well aware of what was to happen since he was blackmailed into
partcipating in the murder of the President. Blackmailed because it
was common knowledge to the
plotters and planners that he was the one who shot at Walker. I
SUSPECT that the weapon was already in the building before LHO even
got to work and the shooter and another man were in the building---on
the seventh floor most of the night waiting for the motorcade. I also
believe the plan was to shoot from the west side of the fifth floor
since there was so much work being done on the sixth floor and, in the
end, the shooter had to go to the only place where he could not be
seen by employees on their lunch hour --- the sixth floor sniper's
nest.--- the worst place in the building to fire from. It was the
farthest place to exit from and the most likely place to be seen from
the street. Ther was nothing secure about that building. Anyone could
enter and leave during the dark hours of the night and probably did on
more than one occasion during the
planning of the murder of JFK.
The defenders of the Warren Commission's claim that LHO constructed a
paper container from materials in the TSBD to transport his Mannlicher
- Carcano from the Paine garage, in Irving, to the sixth floor of the
building where he worked, have got some questions to answer. If Lee
snitched paper and tape from the shipping room, when did he do this
without Troy West seeing him and when and where did he manufacture the
final container? Troy West testified that he seldom moved away from
his station.
A replica bag was made of similar materials from the same area of Troy
West's shipping room by SA Bardwell D. ODUM on Sunday, December 1 when
West wasn't there to watch over his coffee business and his paper
rolls. Did ODUM construct his sack while in the shipping room or did
he too take the paper
and tape home with him, hidden in his trousers and construct his
container without being seen?
If Lee did have his weapon in the mysterious bag and carried it from
Frazier's car into the TSBD, where did he deposit it until needed to
shoot at the President?. Since he was allegedly seen entering the
back door of the building empty handed, how did he make his package
disappear?
When last seen by Frazier, he had the alleged rifle under his arm and
by the time he was seen by Dougherty the package was no longer an
issue. If true, Lee had about four hours to retrieve his murder
weapon and take it up to the sixth floor without being seen.
Considering the above, we must conclude that the package was hidden
outside the building without Frazier seeing Lee conceal it. This would
indicate that at some point during the morning Lee had to leave the
building, recover his package and carry it, unseen again, to the sixth
floor where he had to assemble it.
Difficult to explain? Indeed !
Now, the defenders of the curtain rod story also have some explaining
to do.
If Lee did take paper and tape from the shipping room and was able at
some point to construct the brown paper bag, the same scenario exists.
If he had curtain rods in the package when he exited Frazier's car and
was seen empty handed by Dougherty, what happened to his rods? Let's
examine Dougherty's testimony since so much value is placed on his
seeing Lee enter the back door empty handed.
He says he was sitting on the wrapping table "when Lee came through
the rear door" empty handed. When asked about the location of the door
and if it was the only door, he said , "Yes." He was not necessarily
lying. However, what he said was misleading. To explain, we must
examine the floor plan drawing of the first floor of the TSBD. (CE
1061). Where he was seated, he could not have seen Lee enter the rear
door to the building from outside since that door only deposits a
person onto the deck of the rear loading dock-not the first floor
proper where Dougherty described seeing Lee enter empty handed.
LOOKING AT THE DRAWING: After entering the loading dock from outside,
we see a door from the dock to the first floor and the shipping floor
equipment where Dougherty was sitting. So now we have our antinomy!
Both sides of the argument can argue that Lee left the package
(containing the rods or rifle) someplace on the loading dock where
neither Frazier or Dougherty would have seen it.
If I was making the movie, I would opt for the curtain rod story and
improvise from there. Of course, that does not exclude the possibility
of the rifle, or a similar rifle, having been brought into the
building before the morning of the 22nd., especially since we are not
sure when the rifle might have been removed from the Paine's garage,
are we?
And obviously, Lee had not planned on returning home again to Irving,
and logic says that he at least wanted to see his family for possibly
the last time, so he fibbed to Frazier about why he wanted to go home
a day early. And not to be seen as a liar, he did have a set of
Ruth's curtain rods, already wrapped from the Paine garage. Hell, Ruth
had lots of cheap rods and wasn't using them anyhow.
See Testimony of both Ruth and Mike Paine and you will see that they
disagree on how many sets of unused rods were wrapped and stored in
the garage.--- in brown wrapping paper. The rods were 27 inches long.
Yes, if I was making the movie, I would plan the shooting from a
window on the west side of the fifth floor where my shooter would not
be seen by the crowds on Houston and Elm streets, and I would have my
rifle nearby and ready to fire. I would hide it behind a box of those
books and have it marked for my shooter so he would know where to
pick it up when he came down from the seventh floor, where he had been
hiding since the early hours before the book depository opened. When
the human traffic was too much on the fifth floor, I would have him
hurry to the sixth floor and look for a place to shoot at the
motorcade,
Would I provide some background scenes to convince my audience that my
movie making plot was sincere? Of course. I would have open windows on
the west side of the fifth floor and I would show the marking made by
Lee for my shooter, on the box where the gun was hidden (earlier by
Lee and not
necessarily on the 22 nd. (CE 490)
But , I am not really making a movie so posting my thoughts will
have to do for now.
See: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wcexlink.htm
Scan down to Vol.XVII and view CE 730, 731, and 732 to see the
wrapping benches where Dougherty was sitting when he saw Lee enter at
8:am. Then scan to CE 1061----- the floor plan and observe the outer
door to the loading dock and the door from the dock into the first
floor.Then-
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol...
(CE 490) to see where the rifle was hidden behind a box marked with
the notation: CHICAGO ORDER.
Hmmm! I wonder what that means. It was the only box in the building
so marked. Does it mean, here is a rifle from Klein's in Chicago ?
Compare the handwriting with Lee's script and compare the word CHICAGO
with the envelope where Lee wrote the address of Klein's Sporting
Goods CHICAGO. ILL.
They appear to be the same handwriting.
Thanks for listening
--------------------------
Raymond
CORRECTION : TO CE 490 Chicago Order
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0116b.htm
Addendum
Ruth and Roy's Place
The building is the secret - if ya wanna know the truth.
And how thay got Lee in there - ya needa ask Miss Ruth.
The place is full of cub-by-holes and spots where you could hide.
And you didn't need a stairway - there were other ways outside.
An architect could show you how the dirty deed was done
And where the man was hiding - the man who shot the gun.
When the policeman came and asked the man to help him find his way,
The guy in charge of everything had only this to say:
"Would you like to see the basement? Or the stairway would be fun!
The shooter should be gone by now, there's no need for us to run."
We know these folks weren't strangers - they knew each other well
And soon they'll be together to celebrate in Hell.
So, the building is the secret - take a better look.
The secret isn't magic - the answer's in the book.
>
>
>
> > > > > > > Hey Walt, you know anything about any 7.35 MC's? �I am reading a book
> > > > > > > where this CIA OP (Robert Morrow) was in the middle of Shaw, Ferrie,
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Raymond ....I've never believed that the brown paper that "MAY" have
been found in the SE corner of the sixth floor was connected to the
assassination in any way. I believe it was nothing but a book
wrapper which in some cop's wild imagination may have been used to
smuggle the rifle into the building. All of the evidence indicates
that there never was a rifle in that book wrapper. Furthermore, that
book wrapper is NOT shaped like a gun case. All of the early reports
said a paper sack "SHAPED LIKE A GUNCASE" had been found in the TSBD.
Lt. Day apparently spotted an unusual bag on the sixth floor (made
from brown paper that was different than the other brown paper book
wrappers, and apparently long and tapered like a guncase) because he
picked it up, turned to Truly and asked him if he'd ever seen it
before. Truly replied that he hadn't, so Day said he folded it and
put it in his pocket, and never showed it to anybody else. Later when
Day discovered that the 40 inch Model 91/38 would fit in that tapered
"gun case" he switched the focus to the book wrapper, which became CE
364 or CE 142 or CE 626 ( take your pick it has several Commission
Exhibit numbers.)
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Lee Oswald was not the shooter who fired from the sixth floor...
I doubt that he was blackmailed into going along with the plot....
More likely he was tricked by appealing to his sense of patriotism and
the fact that after his escapade in the USSE he fancied himself a
blooming James Bond.
I
> SUSPECT that the weapon was already in the building before LHO even
> got to work
I agree .... Oswald saw the ACTUAL assassination weapon in the TSBD on
Wednesday November 18.
and the shooter and another man were in the building---on
> the seventh floor most of the night waiting for the motorcade.
Do you have any evidence supporting this theory??
I also
> believe the plan was to shoot from the west side of the fifth floor
They would have had to fire through the trees along Elm street...
> since there was so much work being done on the sixth floor and, in the
> end, the shooter had to go to the only place where he could not be
> seen by employees on their lunch hour --- the sixth floor sniper's
> nest.---
Brennan saw the white clothing clad gunman who was NOT Oswald firing a
HUNTING rifle from the WEST end window.
the worst place in the building to fire from. It was the
> farthest place to exit from and the most likely place to be seen from
> the street. Ther was nothing secure about that building. Anyone could
> enter and leave during the dark hours of the night and probably did on
> more than one occasion during the
> planning of the murder of JFK.
Jack Dougherty testified that it was his duty to unlock the building
before 7:00 am every morning.
>
> The defenders of the Warren Commission's claim that LHO constructed a
> paper container from materials in the TSBD to transport his Mannlicher
> - Carcano from the Paine garage, in Irving, to the sixth floor of the
> building where he worked, have got some questions to answer. If Lee
> snitched paper and tape from the shipping room, when did he do this
> without Troy West seeing him and when and where did he manufacture the
> final container? Troy West testified that he seldom moved away from
> his station.
A ridiculous idea....not worth responding to....
>
> A replica bag was made of similar materials from the same area of Troy
> West's shipping room by SA Bardwell D. ODUM on Sunday, December 1 when
> West wasn't there to watch over his coffee business and his paper
> rolls. Did ODUM construct his sack while in the shipping room or did
> he too take the paper
> and tape home with him, hidden in his trousers and construct his
> container without being seen?
>
> If Lee did have his weapon in the mysterious bag and carried it from
> Frazier's car into the TSBD, where did he deposit it until needed to
> shoot at the President?.
He didn't!!......
Since he was allegedly seen entering the
> back door of the building empty handed, how did he make his package
> disappear?
>
> When last seen by Frazier, he had the alleged rifle under his arm and
> by the time he was seen by Dougherty the package was no longer an
> issue. If true, Lee had about four hours to retrieve his murder
> weapon and take it up to the sixth floor without being seen.
> Considering the above, we must conclude that the package was hidden
> outside the building without Frazier seeing Lee conceal it. This would
> indicate that at some point during the morning Lee had to leave the
> building, recover his package and carry it, unseen again, to the sixth
> floor where he had to assemble it.
>
> Difficult to explain? Indeed !
>
> Now, the defenders of the curtain rod story also have some explaining
> to do.
>
> If Lee did take paper and tape from the shipping room and was able at
> some point to construct the brown paper bag, the same scenario exists.
> If he had curtain rods in the package when he exited Frazier's car and
> was seen empty handed by Dougherty, what happened to his rods? Let's
> examine Dougherty's testimony since so much value is placed on his
> seeing Lee enter the back door empty handed.
The "curtain rod" story was invented by the cops so that buell Frazier
would support the idea that oswald carried a long package.
Frazier had been threatened with being charged as an accessory because
he had transported the assassin's weapon to the scene of the crime.
The cops told Frazier that Oswald had claimed that the package
contained curtain rods ( Oswald had said nothing of the kind) ...
Frazier saw that if he claimed that Oswald had told him the package
contained curtain rods he would be off the hook for the accessory
charge. So that's what he said when the cops told him that Oswald
claimed the package held curtain rods...
Detective--- Buell, Lee has told us that the package you saw on the
back seat of your car contained curtain rods.
Frazier--- Yes, that's right, he told me that the package contained
curtain rods ..( whew....now they can't accuse me of being an
accessory)
Detective--- Would you be willing to take a polygraph exam??
Frazier --- Yes, I'll take the test.
It's all irrelevant .... the "curtain rods" were nothing but a
figment of some cop's imagination.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
curtjester1
I just finished reading the book now. I see that those potential
weapons were usually cut down in size. This could be a reason for
people that claimed to see a rifle from the TSBD saying it seemed
shorter....C. Walther, and Worrels come to mind. Also, the sightings
of 'Oswald' at the Firing Range (Sports Drome), and the Irving Sport
Shop where there was work done on the rifle also have recognition of
something that was shorter than the rifle picked up at the 6th floor
of the TSBD after the assassination.
CJ