“We like to be deceived.”

[Raymond]

In Case Closed, Gerald Posner, the author, describes the scene, on the
street in Oak Cliff, where Patrolman J.D. Tippit decided to stop Lee
Oswald as a suspect in the killing of President Kennedy.

"He pulled his patrol car to the curb behind Oswald and called him
over. Oswald turned around and walked back to the car. He leaned close
toward the passenger side, exchanging some words through the open vent
window. Whatever he said did not satisfy Tippit, who then got out of
his car and started to walk around the front toward Oswald. Tippit did
not first call on his radio that he had stopped someone, nor did he
draw his gun upon exiting the car. According to Dallas police
procedure , this indicated that he was merely suspicious, but not
positive he had found a suspect."
p274.

Posner is wrong: Tippit did draw his gun.
From the Warren Report:
"An automobile repairman, Domingo Benavides heard the shots and
stopped his pickup truck on the opposite side of the street about 25
feet in front of the Tippit car. Benivides rushed to Tippit's side.
The patrolman, apparently dead, was lying on his revolver, which was
out of his holster."
WR

From Benivides testimony:
MR. BELIN: Did you notice where the gun of the policeman was?
MR. BENIVIDES: The gun was in his hand and he was partially lying
on his gun in the right hand. He was partially lying on his gun and
his hand, too."
Vol.6,p.449.

Another Witness, Ted Callaway, manager of a used car lot on the
corner of Patton Avenue and Jefferson Boulevard, heard the shots and
found Tippit lying on the street beside his car. Callaway picked up
Tippit's gun and he and Wm. Scoggins, a cab driver, attempted to chase
the gunman in Scoggin's taxi cab.

From Callaway's testimony:
MR.CALLAWAY:... The officer was lying on his left side, his pistol
was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over and took the gun out
from under him. The people wonder whether he ever got his pistol out
of his holster. He did.

MR.BALL: The pistol was out of holster?

MR.Callaway: Yes, sir: out of his holster, and it was unsnapped. It
was on his right side. He was lying with his gun under him.
Vol. 3,p. 354

Some of the criticism of Posner's work may appear petty, such as
whether or not Tippit had un holstered his weapon, but Posner makes
the issue important when he says that Tippit did not draw his gun
which indicated that he was only suspicious. Since he obviously did
draw his gun, does it indicate that the officer was more than
suspicious? Some people believe that Tippit was part of the plot whose
purpose was to kill Oswald. Is Posner worried that the drawn weapon
aids their cause?

“We like to be deceived.”
---- Blaise Pascal

Peter Dale Scott's review of Posner's research.
SCOTT: " Case Closed may seem to the uninformed readers to be the
most persuasive of a succession of books that have urged readers to
accept the lone-assassin finding of the Warren Report. But to those
who know the case it is also evidence of on-goimg cover-up. For Posner
often transmits without evaluation official statements that are now
known to be false, or chooses discredited but complaint witnesses who
have already disowned earlier stories that have been disproven. He
even revives a wild allegation which the Warren Commision rejected and
reverses testimony to suggest its opposite."

I would like to find something kind to say about the book, but I
can't. I know that some minds cannot be changed and everyone has
their right to hold on to their heroes. For me:

I know that this world-that the great big
world-
From the peasant up to the king,
Has a different tale from the tale I tell,
And a different song to sing,
Anon.

[bigdog]

It seems likely from all accounts that Tippit did draw his gun. What isn't
clear is when did he draw it. Was it as he was getting out of the patrol
car or after he saw Oswald pull his gun, or even after Oswald began
firing.

I have a vague memory of one of the early accounts of the Tippit shooting,
which I think appeared on one of the nightly news programs (probably NBC
since that is what our family watched). It showed a sketch of Tippit
getting out of his car and Oswald firing over the roof of the car into the
side of his head. That account would seem to be at odds with Tippit having
drawn his gun and also having been shot multiple times, since such a shot
would have almost certainly put Tippit down immediately and made any
further shots unnecessary. Does anyone else remember having seen that.

[Bud]

On Jan 9, 3:24 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:

But when? After he saw Oswald`s gun? After Oswald shot him?

> does it indicate that the officer was more than
> suspicious? Some people believe that Tippit was part of the plot whose
> purpose was to kill Oswald. Is Posner worried that the drawn weapon
> aids their cause?
>
>  “We like to be deceived.”
> ----  Blaise Pascal

I don`t like to be deceived. Thats why I don`t buy into conspiracy
nonsense.

[Raymond]

What is more interesting to me is:
Officer W.E. Barnes dusted the right door ledge of Tippit's car
because he'd been told that the killer had leaned on the door ("smear
prints" were found, but "none of value" )

Barnes is interviewed by David Belin regarding a particular photograph,
Barnes Deposition Exhibit A:

Q: ... Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that the
vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that the
way that you found the car when you got there?
A: That is true.
Q: Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or
document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?
A: That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all
squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted
persons
Q: Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on
this clipboard?
A: Yes; we never read his clipboard.
Q: That is the way you saw the clipboard there?
A: That is the way it was.
Q: It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard.
Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any
memorandum paper on the board?
A: I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.
Q: Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes Deposition
Exhibit A?
A: What?
Q: Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be
relevant?
A: Not that I know. (7H273-74)

Who took possession of the materials in the car,and who examined
them ? What became of them?

Read; The Rosetta Stone of the JFK AssassinationPublished in Flagpole
Magazine, p. 8 (November 20, 2002).
Author: Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia
School of Law.
http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/jfk_19rosetta.html

The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing. Thirty-nine-
year-old Dallas police officer J. D. Tippit was shot to death near the
intersection of Tenth and Patton Streets in the Oak Cliff section of
Dallas shortly before 1:16 p.m. on November 22, 1963. Tippit's death
occurred about 45 minutes after JFK was shot in Dealey Plaza,
approximately four miles away in downtown Dallas. While cruising east in
his marked police car on Patton, the uniformed Tippit came across a
pedestrian walking in the same direction on the sidewalk. Bringing his
car to a stop, Tippit called the pedestrian to the car, whereupon the
pedestrian approached and apparently spoke to Tippit through the (open
right front vent window.) After a brief conversation, Tippit exited his
car and started to walk to the front of his car. As he reached the left
front wheel, the pedestrian pulled out a pistol and began shooting Tippit
across the car hood. Tippit, who by now had drawn his service revolver,
fell into the street, and shortly thereafter the killer fled the scene.
Half an hour later Oswald, while in possession of a .38 caliber pistol,
was arrested at a movie theater approximately eight blocks away.

----------
I had a car like that and it also had a vent window. I never talked to
anyone through that vent that I can remember.
----- Raymond

More?

Oswald-Tippit Connections The Warren Report asserted there was “no
evidence” that Oswald and Tippit “had ever seen each other before.”
Actually, there was. A waitress at a Dobbs House restaurant in Dallas
told FBI investigators working for the Warren Commission that two days
before the JFK assassination Oswald, a customer in the restaurant, was
“nasty and used curse words” in connection with his food order, that
Tippit was also in the restaurant “as was his habit at about that time
each morning,” and that Tippit “shot a glance at Oswald.” Another
Dobbs House waitress also told the FBI of the incident when Oswald was
rude (although she thought it occurred one day before the assassination);
she further recalled that Oswald came into the restaurant “numerous
times.” The Dobbs House manager told the FBI that Tippit was a regular
“coffee customer.” (Interestingly, the restaurant was outside
Tippit’s patrol district.) Despite this evidence that Oswald and Tippit
frequented the same restaurant, that on at least one occasion--only a day
or two before the Kennedy assassination--they were both present there at
the same time, and that on that occasion Tippit glanced toward Oswald,
neither the FBI nor the Warren Commission further investigated the matter.

The Mysterious Police Car The housekeeper at the rooming house (about
a mile from the Tippit murder site) where Oswald was living told the
Warren Commission that around 1 p.m. on November 22, while Oswald was
alone in his room, a marked police car stopped in front of the
premises, sounded its horn twice, and then slowly drove away.
Although it treated her as a credible and responsible witness in every
other respect, the Warren Commission curiously rejected this part of
the housekeeper's testimony. In his book Lee: A Portrait of Lee
Harvey Oswald (1967), Robert Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald’s brother,
cogently asks: “How could the Commission decide that [the housekeeper]
was right when she supplied [other] information, but wrong when she
made her firm statement about the police car stopping and honking?”
That housekeeper, Mrs. Earlene Roberts, thought that there were two
police officers in the mysterious police car; and, interestingly,
photographs of Tippit’s patrol car taken only a few minutes later,
shortly after Tippit’s death, show a police uniform is visible hanging
inside one of the backseat windows of his car. Furthermore, as Sylvia
Meagher notes, Roberts “was confused about the number on the vehicle
and gave several different versions. In some of the three-digit
combinations, she suggested, the first two figures were a 1 and a 0;
Tippit’s car was ‘No. 10.’”

Tippit’s Activities Shortly Before His Death Officer Tippit’s actions
in the minutes preceding his murder are shrouded in mystery. At 1:03
p.m. the police radio dispatcher signaled Tippit seeking his location,
but inexplicably received no response. Several seemingly reliable
witnesses saw him parked in his patrol car in a gas station in Oak
Cliff shortly before 1:00 p.m.; after several minutes, he was seen to
drive away at high speed. A few minutes later two witnesses who knew
Tippit well saw him enter the record shop in Oak Cliff where they
worked and where Tippit frequently used the telephone. Tippit dialed
a number but got no answer, hung up, and then rushed out. Around 1:08
p.m. Tippit twice radioed the police dispatcher but inexplicably got
no reply. At the time of his death Tippit, one of the few officers
not sent to Dealey Plaza, was outside his regular patrol district;
Dallas police explanations of why Tippit happened to be where he was
in Oak Cliff are not credible. Nor has there ever been a sufficient
explanation of why Tippit stopped the pedestrian. It is unlikely that
he stopped the pedestrian thinking the pedestrian might be a
presidential assassin. If Tippit did think the pedestrian was
possibly an assassin, it is odd that he never radioed for help and
that he left the safety of his car
---------

I have always wondered why Tippit had a second jacket hanging in the
rear of his police car. Was Harry Olsen in that car with JD and were
they the policemen that stopped at the N. Beckley address to pick up
the running rabbit?

Harry was not on duty that day due to an injury of his leg in a car
accident and was in a cast. He was allegedly on a private job watching
an estate. He was substituting for another officer who was needed for
the downtown JFK motorcade protection.

Harry was also dating Kathy Kay Coleman who was a stripper at Ruby's
Carousel Club.

Mr. Specter.
And where was Mrs. Kay Olsen, who was then not your wife, living at
that time?
Mr. Olsen.
On Ewing.
Mr. Specter.
What was her specific address, if you recall?
Mr. Olsen.
325 North Ewing, I believe.
Mr. Specter.
What was your relationship with Kay in the fall of 1963?
Mr. Olsen.
We were going together.
-------------
If you go to the corner of 8th and Patton, where JD Tippit was
executed, you can throw a stone at the rear door of Kay's apartment
, 325 North Ewing.
-------------
Mr. Specter.
How far was Mr. Ruby's residence from your residence?
Mr. Olsen.
Oh, boy. Oh, it was, I would guess, 2 or 3 miles.
Mr. Specter.
Did you ever live only 1 block away from Mr. Ruby's residence?
Mr. Olsen.
No, sir.
Mr. Specter.
Did Jack Ruby ever visit you at your apartment?
Mr. Olsen.
No, sir.
Mr. Specter.
Did Jack Ruby ever visit Kay at her apartment?
Mr. Olsen.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter.
How many times did he visit Kay at her apartment?
Mr. Olsen.
I don't know.
Mr. Specter.
Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. Olsen.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter.
Did you know him very well?
Mr. Olsen.
No, sir.
Mr. Specter.
Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. Olsen.
I heard that he did.
Mr. Specter.
Tell me, as specifically as you can recollect, exactly what your
activities were on that day.
Mr. Olsen.
I was employed by the Dallas Police Department and I was working at an
extra job guarding an estate.
Mr. Specter.
Whose estate was that?
Mr. Olsen.
I don't remember the name.
Mr. Specter.
How did you happen to get that extra job?
Mr. Olsen.
A motorcycle officer was related to this elderly woman and he was
doing work, but he was in the motor----
Mr. Specter.
Cade?
Mr. Olsen.
Motorcade of the President, and I was off that day and able to work
it.
Mr, SPECTER. Do you recall the name of the motorcycle officer?
Mr. Olsen.
No.
Mr. Specter.
Where was that estate located?
Mr. Olsen.
*** On 8th Street in Dallas.
Mr. Specter.
Do you recall the specific address or the cross street on which it was
located?
Mr. Olsen.
It's in the Oak Cliff area, it's approximately two blocks off of
Stemmons.
Mr. Specter.
How did it happen that you were not on duty with the police department
on the day President Kennedy was in town?
Mr. Olsen.
I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which was working
in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they needed me
to work that day and they said no.
Mr. Specter.
What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg?
Mr. Olsen.
I fell and broke my kneecap.
Yes, sir; it's on Gaston.
Mr. Specter.
What time did you start to guard the estate on that particular
Friday?
Mr. Olsen.
About 7 a.m.
Mr. Specter.
And how long did that guard duty last?
Mr. Olsen.
Until about 8.
Mr. Specter.
Eight p.m.?
Mr. Olsen.
P.m., yes, sir.
Mr. Specter.
Did you have any visitors while you were guarding the estate on that
day?
Mr. Olsen.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter.
And who was the visitor or visitors?
Mr. Olsen.
Kay.
Mr. Specter.
What time did she visit you?
Mr. Olsen.
Right after the President was shot.
Mr. Specter.
How did you learn of the assassination of the President?
Mr. Olsen.
A woman called me on the phone who was a friend of the person who had
lived there.
Mr. Specter.
Do you know who that woman was?
Mr. Olsen.
No, sir.- And she wanted to know if I had heard the news, and I said
no and she said, "The President has been shot."
Mr. Specter.
What time did that telephone call occur?
Mr. Olsen.
Right after he was shot. I don't know exactly what time it was.
Mr. Specter.
Did you talk to anybody else on the telephone or in person between the
telephone call and the time that Kay visited you?
Mr. Olsen.
Passers-by. I went outside.
Mr. Specter.
Whom did you see outside?
Mr. Olsen.
No one who I knew by name They just said, "Have you heard the news?"
And I said, "Yes, I had."
Mr. Specter.
Did you have any other telephone calls while you were guarding that
house?
Mr. Olsen.
I called the police department and asked them if they needed me to
work.
Mr. Specter.
To whom did you talk at the police department?
Mr. Olsen.
I don't recall.
Mr. Specter.
What response did you get?
Mr. Olsen.
They said no.
Mr. Specter.
What time did Kay visit you on that Friday?
Mr. Olsen.
In the afternoon sometime.
Mr. Specter.
How long did she stay?
Mr. Olsen.
Oh, I would say an hour or two.
Mr. Specter.
Where did you have lunch on that Friday?
Mr. Olsen.
There at the place that I was watching.
Mr. Specter.
Where did you have supper that day?
Mr. Olsen.
At her house.
Mr. Specter.
What time did you go to her house? And by "her" I take it you mean
Kay's house?
Mr. Olsen.
Yes.
Mr. Specter.
Then what time did you go to Kay's house?
Mr. Olsen.
When I got--when the motorcycle officer came and relieved me.
Mr. Specter.
About what time was that?
Mr. Olsen.
Oh, 8; about 8.
Mr. Specter.
Did you have an automobile?
Mr. Olsen.
No, sir.
Mr. Specter.
How did you get from the house which you were guarding to Kay's
house?
Mr. Olsen.
Walked.
Mr. Specter.
How far was it?
Mr. Olsen.
About 4 blocks.
Mr. Specter.
Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any material way?
Mr. Olsen.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter.
Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee?
Mr. Olsen.
A little bit, not much.
Mr. Specter.
But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4 blocks to Kay's
house?
Mr. Olsen.
Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though.
Mr. Specter.
What did you do after arriving at Kay's house?
Mr. Olsen.
Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I used. Now,
what was the question?
Mr. Specter.
After you arrived at Kay's house, what did you do then?
Mr. Olsen.
We talked about the assassination.
Mr. Specter.
How long did you stay at Kay's house?
Mr. Olsen.
I would say several hours.
Mr. Specter.
And about what time did you leave Kay's house, to the best of your
ability to recollect?
Mr. Olsen.
What time I don't know.
Mr. Specter.
Was anybody else at Kay's house with you besides Kay?
Mr. Olsen.
No, sir.
Mr. Specter.
In what manner did you travel away from Kay's house, by foot, by car?
Mr. Olsen.
By car.
Mr. Specter.
Whose car was that?
Mr. Olsen.
Mine.
Mr. Specter.
How was it that you didn't have your car at the house which you were
guarding?
Mr. Olsen.
I didn't want to drive it, I don't remember why. I think I left it for
her to use.
Mr. Specter.
Did Kay go with you when you drove away from her house?
Mr. Olsen.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter.
Where did you go?
Cont'd
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page631.php

----------------------
A must read:
Kay's Testimony:
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page640.php

Mr. Specter.
Where did you live in September of 1963?
Mrs. Olsen.
On Ewing.
Mr. Specter.
What was your specific address?
Mrs. Olsen.
I think it was 325 North Ewing.
Mr. Specter.
How far was your apartment from Mr. Ruby's in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. Olsen.
Oh, I would say a mile.
Mr. Specter.
Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy was
assassinated?
Mrs. Olsen.
Yes.
Mr. Specter.
Tell me as precisely as you can recollect what you did on Friday,
November 22.
Mrs. Olsen.
Harry was guarding an estate on 8th Street just a ways from where I
lived, and I fixed a lunch for him and stopped off at the 7-11 store
to get him some milk, and that's when I heard that there had been some
trouble downtown; a colored lady told me that.
Mr. Specter.
What time was that that you stopped at the 7-11 store?
Mrs. Olsen.
Oh, I guess about 12:30.
Mr. Specter.
In the afternoon?
Mrs. Olsen.
Yes. I can't remember the morning. I had the children and I can't
remember. We probably had been in the pool or something.
--------------
No school that day Mrs Olsen? In the pool in Nov? Wow !
( my comment)
-------------------
Mr. Specter.
Tell me as precisely as you can recollect what you did on Friday,
November 22.
Mrs. Olsen.
Harry was guarding an estate on 8th Street just a ways from where I
lived, and I fixed a lunch for him and stopped off at the 7-11 store
to get him some milk, and that's when I heard that there had been some
trouble downtown; a colored lady told me that.
Mr. Specter.
What time was that that you stopped at the 7-11 store?
Mrs. Olsen.
Oh, I guess about 12:30.
Mr. Specter.
In the afternoon?
Mrs. Olsen.
Yes. I can't remember the morning. I had the children and I can't
remember. We probably had been in the pool or something.
Cont'd
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page644.php
---------------
I wrote to Harry, in California, and got a letter from him asking me .
"What do you want to know."
Later Harry called, late one night, and we began to discuss Nov.22.
Apparently, Harry was using a battery operated phone and it began
going dead. Harry said, "I will have to call you back later." I never
did hear from Harry again. I understand he is back in Texas and has
been divorced from K K Coleman for years.

Specter did a poor job of interviewing both Harry and Kay. Both have a
story to tell that has never been told.

Lancaster and Eighth are indeed in Oak Cliff.
A map of the area:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tippit2.gif

Many questions were unanswered about Harry Olsen, Kay Coleman, and
Tippit on that day in November and Arlen Specter did a piss poor job
of interrogating both of them.

No one, that I am aware of, has yet located the alleged estate that
Harry was watching and it would have been easy at the time to answer
the mystery that still is unanswered. Maybe John McAdams knows

Why didn't Specter ask Harry or Kay to take a ride to Eighth Street
and show him the estate?

Harry started at 7am. Says he quit at 8pm when he was relieved by the
patrolman that he subbed for to watch the estate. Kay says he quit at
4, then changed it to 6 "When he was relieved."

Harry's leg was in a cast and when he was relieved by the officer, he
walked four blocks to 325 Ewing where Kay lived. Told Specter his leg
swelled up.

When Specter asked him why he walked, he said because Kay had his
car. Couldn't he have called Kay and asked her to drive four blocks to
pick him up? He has access to a phone and Kay had a phone and Kay was
at home waiting for him. And Kay had two great healthy legs didn't
she Harry?

Kay heard about the assassination at a 7-11 store where she stopped
to get milk for Harry's lunch , but may have heard about it in the car
where she and Harry listened to the radio.

The word "estate" is confusing because it seems to be a "ramshackle"
house. No one was living there. Yet it had a phone.

That's how Harry found out about the assassination. "Some woman
called and , etc.," Harry called the station from there to see if they
needed him.

Kay called the Carousel from there and talked to the bartender.

Kay could not remember the morning . She slept late because she
worked late the night before. She had two children, girls ,who were
not in school They were home with her. "We were probably in the
pool." ( Nov. 22 in the complex pool?) And why weren't they in school?

(Some believe that it was Harry and Tippit that stopped at LHO's
rooming house and blew the horn, and when Lee decided to take the bus
instead of a ride in #10, , J.D. dropped Harry off and went looking
for his missing fare.)

If you ever get to Dallas, be sure to ride out to Lancaster and
Eighth where Tippit reported from at 12:54 pm. If Kay was in the
apartment at the time, she might have heard the shots. But she went to
the store at about !2:30pm.

The apartment complex on Ewing, where Kay ( and Harry ) lived takes
up the entire block-on the north is Seventh Street and on the south is
Eighth. On the east is North Ewing and to the west is Lancaster. There
is an alley directly behind the complex that is used to enter and
exit the parking lot to the apartments. There was no parking on the
street in front of the Holiday Apts. Lancaster runs north and south
parallel with the alley and if Tippit was on that corner at 12:54, he
was within a stones throw and talking distance to the rear of the
residence of one of the more important players in a possible
conspiracy to kill the president.

At 12:54 P.M. dispatcher Murray Jackson, calls Tippit for his location
and Tippit responds by saying that he is at "Lancaster and Eighth." It
is about 8/10's of a mile from the Gloco station to Lancaster and
Eighth. Normal travel time is about 4 minutes but since he was
"tearing" when he left the gas station he could have made it in as
little as 1-2 minutes. This definitely fits into the time frame and
the direction he was headed as described by the five witnesses.

Interesting stuff ?

[Raymond]

> School of Law.http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/jfk_19rosetta.html

CORRECTION... It should be 8th and Lancaster where you can throw a

stone at the rear door of Kay's apartment

JD was murdered at 10th and Patton
SEE MAP
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tippit2.gif
Sorry !

> Cont'dhttp://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page631.php

> Cont'dhttp://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page644.php

[David Von Pein]

>>> "The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing." <<<

A sillier statement has never been uttered in these forums than the one
quoted above. And that's because the evidence that Lee Oswald murdered
J.D. Tippit is rock-solid and conclusive. Any prosecutor could have phoned
in his case against Oswald in the Tippit case.

And what makes Oswald's guilt in the Tippit murder EXTRA convincing (vs.
"unconvincing") is the fact that there is multiple different types of
evidence to convict him -- including direct (eyewitness) testimony which
corroborates and buttresses the physical evidence left behind by Oswald at
the scene of the crime (i.e., the eyewitnesses fingered OSWALD -- and the
bullet shells found at the crime scene were fired in OSWALD'S revolver --
and OSWALD himself had the murder weapon in his own hands just 35 minutes
after Tippit was killed, with OSWALD himself acting liker a very guilty
man in the theater as well).

That type of melding together of eyewitness testimony, circumstantial
evidence, and PHYSICAL evidence (the bullet shells on Tenth Street)
doesn't occur in a great number of murder cases. But in the Tippit case,
it did occur. And Oswald was nice enough to HOLD ON TO THE MURDER WEAPON
right after the crime too, which is a huge asset when it comes to solving
the murder of Officer Tippit.

The only possible way for Oswald to be innocent of Tippit's murder is if
LHO's identical twin had actually shot Tippit with LEE OSWALD'S gun, and
then the identical twin was somehow able to get Oswald himself to regain
possession of Revolver V510210 prior to his arrest in the Texas Theater.
(And even that ridiculous scenario wouldn't really explain why Oswald
acted like a very guilty person when the police approached him inside the
Texas Theater.)

Conspiracy theorists are experts at making up excuses to EXPLAIN AWAY all
the evidence that exists against Lee Harvey Oswald in both the JFK and
Tippit murder cases. But unless the CTers really want to believe that all
of the eyewitnesses who identified Oswald were totally wrong AND that all
of the physical evidence in the Tippit case has been faked to frame an
innocent man named Oswald, then the conspiracy theorists really have
nowhere to go with their persistent arguments that Oswald was innocent of
killing J.D. Tippit.*

* = Unless the CTers actually want to accept the tongue-in-cheek theory
proposed above about LHO's look-alike shoving the murder weapon into
Oswald's hands immediately after the crime was committed. And I doubt even
the wackiest of conspiracy buffs would have a desire to sink THAT deep
into their bin of conspiracy nonsense. (Would they?)

[Walt]

On Jan 9, 11:54 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> "The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing." <<<
>
> A sillier statement has never been uttered in these forums than the one
> quoted above. And that's because the evidence that Lee Oswald murdered
> J.D. Tippit is rock-solid and conclusive.

The "evidence" only appears tp be "solid".... It's like quick
sand.... It appears to be solid until you try to walk on it.

Name ONE piece of evidence that you think is "rock solid" as evidence
that Lee murdered JD Tippit..... Let's examine it and see how solid it
is.

[Raymond]

On Jan 10, 12:54 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> "The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing." <<<
>
> A sillier statement has never been uttered in these forums than the one
> quoted above. And that's because the evidence that Lee Oswald murdered
> J.D. Tippit is rock-solid and conclusive. Any prosecutor could have phoned
> in his case against Oswald in the Tippit case.

DAVID :
I agree with you. The evidence is overwhelming that LHO shot Tippit;
But why was it so necessary and brutal?
I did not say that. "At any rate, the evidence that Oswald murdered
Tippit is unconvincing.".

Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia School

of Law. made that statement.and, he made many other statements that
are very helpful. Perhaps the Professor has an opinion that we do not
necessarily share.

Because it appears in a post that I submitted does not mean that I
agree with it. I often quote other people and claims made that I do
not agree with. Often the statements are included in articles that
contain the ideas of other people and I want them to be available for
critics to comment on , just as you have. O.J. Simpson said, "I dd
not kill my wife." I do not agree with OJ...

I am a fan of yours and enjoy your work. It is very professional in my
opinion..
Raymond

Read

Read; The Rosetta Stone of the JFK AssassinationPublished in Flagpole
Magazine, p. 8 (November 20, 2002).
Author: Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of
Georgia
School of Law.
http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/jfk_19rosetta.html

------------------------------------

[Raymond]

> SEE MAPhttp://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tippit2.gif

The testimony of Earlene Roberts, who said a police car stopped and
blew the horn in front of the rooming house, while LHO was "getting
his gun."

Now, if Earlene had been an apartment owner, in Arlington, instead of
a common landlady, in a cheap rooming house, in Oak Cliff, the Warren
Wizards might have devoted a chapter to the reliability of her
testimony. Not the case. Roberts was "confused."

Did Ruby know Tippit ? Not so, said the Wizards. On whose word did
they rely? On the word of the hero of Nov. 24. - Jack Ruby himself -
or the word of the honorable defenders of our homes and streets - the
other officers of law within the Dallas community.

Despite the claim of the WC that Tippit was not known to frequent
nightclubs and had no reason during his tour of police duties to enter
any of Ruby's clubs, there is testimony by Jack's sister, Eve Grant,
to indicate that Tippit was in the Vegas nightclub not long before the
assassination.

From Eva's testimony when asked by a member of the WC staff if Jack
knew J.D. Tippit - Grant answered:
" I don't - I don't know, all I could tell you is that Jack lived in
the Oak Cliff area for a couple of years or maybe a year and a half
and Tippit, being of that area, he could have run into him and known
him slightly. HE DIDN'T KNOW HIM AS WELL AS OTHER POLICEMAN much
closer than him, but since all this happened, one of my coworkers,
Leo Torti, showed me a magazine and Tippit was in our club sometime a
month previous to this-previous to his killing."

MR. HERBERT:" Was it a picture of Tippit?"
GRANT: "It was a picture of Tippit, and he said, " Do you remember he
talked to you up at the front, and he was in September or October or
November sometime."

BURLESON: " Was that the Carousel or the Vegas? "

GRANT: "The Vegas, and while I looked at him I remembered that he
looked familiar..."

BURLESON:" Mr. Herbert, I think that is all I have along that line."
Vol. 14, p 486.

At this point of inquiry, the questioners ended what might have proven
to be a fruitful revelation, but as was generally the case, they
missed a possibility of producing testimony that would lead to a
possible Tippit Ruby relationship.

When Harry Officer Harry Olsen was asked if Ruby knew Tippit:
OLSEN: "It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit."

SPECTER: "Why do you say , "It seemed that he did know Officer
Tippit."

OLSEN: I believe he said that Tippit had been to the club."
Vol.: 14, p. 632

The picture presented to the public by the DPD and the WC would appear
to be the perfect family living in harmony with the world, but even
before the revelations of J.D. 's adulterous conduct by the HSC in
1977, there was an indication that something was wrong at 238
Glencarin, the home of the Tippits. Heard on the police radio
transcripts shortly after Tippit was pronounced dead at Methodist
Hospital- the following communication:

CALLER MESSAGE
210 Has anyone made arrangements or
picked up Tippit's wife yet?


Dispatcher: I'm not sure 210

210 If you give me his address, I will
go

go there and pick her up. I do not
have anybody to send right now.

210 I'll call 505 for the address.

Dispatcher 10:4, 1:51 pm.

At 1:56 pm
210 ; I'm downtown.
J.D. Tippit lives at7500
So. Beckley. I'm running Code 2
(URGENT) TO HIS WIFE'S HOUSE

Dispatcher: Yes, go ahead. 1: 56 pm.

The 1963 Dallas City Directory listed the name of John E. Boone as the
resident of 7500 So. Beckley. Telephone CA 43847.
Occupation: Press Operator at the Dallas Times Herald. The above
transcript can be found:
CE 705, Vol. 17, PP. 471-472-473.

Ruth Paine became the darling of the age, and whatever she said became
The Gospel of Ruth. Yet, among the more realistic members of the
Oswald Inquisition, a special investigation of Ruth and "hen-pecked-
hubby," Mike, was in order. That thought was shut down post-haste. We
can only wonder why. Some believe that because the Paines were
probably "rolled-over" agents of the intelligence community, they
deserved a hands-off treatment and a silent offering of immunity.

Ass't D.A. Wm. Alexander felt that "more should have been done with
the Paines." I agree, and it isn't too late.

Then, again, who was Alexander? Here was a guy who told the FBI that
he didn't know of any connection between Ruby and the underworld. If
there was such a connection, he believed "it would have come to the
attention of his office." He also had a signed pass to Ruby's club,
found among Ruby's possessions, and had spoke to Jack the day before
the assassination.
(CE 1628, CE 1322, pp.735-36 A microfilm of the actual cards revealed
a signed card for every name listed, except that of Alexander's card
is curiously missing.

JFK microfilm, Vol. 5, pp R 13-28)
But, Que scais-je? - What do I know?

According to Jack's employee, Andrew Armstrong, Jack knew JD . FBI
interview 1/23/64. In testimony to WC, Armstrong said when the news of
the officer shot came over the radio "Jack jumped straight up and
said, 'I know him--I know him.' Andrew goes on to say that Eva Grant
later told him (Andrew) it was a different Tippit that Jack knew.
(19 H
102-102),
(13 H 353)

Larry Crafard, Carousel handyman, was present when Jack said he knew
Tippit. "Yes, I think he (Jack) said he knew him (Tippit) (14 H 42)

Interview 8/21/64, Crafard had this to say to FBI: "He (Crafard) does
recall the name "Tippit" and recalls that he was in the presence of
Ruby at the time the news came over the air concerning the
assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Officer Tippit,
and at that time Crafard recalls hearing Ruby refer to Tippit by name
in a manner indicating to Crafard that Ruby knew Tippit.
(25 H 530 - 531)

Again Crafard was interviewed by agents on 8/31/64: It is Crafard's
definite recollection that he was in the presence of Jack Ruby when
the news came over the air concerning the assassination of President
Kennedy and the death of Officer J. D. Tippit on Novemer 22, 1963. At
that time, Ruby referred to Officer Tippit by his first name or
nickname, neither of which Crafard can recall, and said he knew him
well. He (Ruby) definitely was referring to the Dallas, Texas, Police
Department officer, Tippit, who was shot the day of the
assassination."
(25 H 530-31)

"When you live your life with an appreciation of coincidences and
their meanings, you connect with the underlying field of infinite
possibilities."
---- Deepak Chopra

MORE ON TIPPIT:
From the Warren Commission:

"At about 12:44 p.m., on November 22, the radio dispatcher on
Channel 1 ordered all downtown patrol squads to report to Elm and
Houston, code 3 (emergency)." At 12:45 , the dispatcher ordered No.78
(Tippit ) to "move into the Oak Cliff area." At about 12:45, Tippit
reported that he was in the central Oak Cliff area at Lancaster and
Eighth. The dispatcher then advised Tippit to "be at large for any
emergency that comes in."
(WE p. 165)

It is not sufficient to say that Tippit alone was ordered into the
Oak Cliff section of Dallas at the height of excitement and bedlam. In
the actual police transcript, the dispatcher orders two policemen into
the Oak Cliff area at 12:45, No. 87 and No. 78. No 87 was patrolman
R.C. Nelson.
(see CE 1974, p.28)

After a close examination of the available evidence, it will become
clear that there is reason to believe that no such order was
dispatched that day.

In April 1964, pressure was put on Chief of Police Curry to explain
Tippit's presence in District 91 where he was shot to death. This
April request came after the WC had received two other transcripts of
the Dallas transmissions supposedly made on 11-22-63. The Commission
had hoped to find an explanation for Tippit's reason to be in District
91.

From Reasonable Doubt by Henry Hurt:
"The Warren Commission continued to struggle with the problem
throughout the spring. It heard testimony from three supervisors from
the Dallas Police Dept. who tried to explain why Tippit was in the
wrong place. The reasons were purely speculative, vaguely suggesting
the demonstrably absurd possibility that Tippit was heading for Dealey
Plaza four miles away to be of assistance there. During this
testimony, there never was any reference to the possibility that
Tippit might have been ordered to central Oak Cliff by the radio
dispatcher. And, of course, the three supervisors were quite aware of
the intense effort being made to find an answer to the riddle.

"The mystery remained unsolved until finally, in the spring, the WC
equested and received a verbatim transcript - not one edited to
include only transmissions related to Kennedy and Tippit. The
Commission hoped that such a transcript might yield the elusive
answer.

" It must have been a stunning revelation for the commission to
discover that the new transcripts contained, at least, the badly
needed answer to the puzzle. According to the transcript - and
supported by the actual tape-there was an order given to Tippit at
12:45 p.m., an inexplicable instruction believed to be unique in the
Dallas Police Dept., it also had not been in the first transcript.
Moreover, none of the police supervisors who testified earlier
indicated that they knew anything about it. "
(Hurt, p.160)

The first transcript submitted to the WC was SAWYER EXHIBIT A. There
is no recognizable mention of Tippit or an order to "move into the Oak
Cliff area."

The second transcript submitted , the 12:45 order directing him to
Oak Cliff was CE 705. It simply says: " 87-78 move into Central Oak
Cliff." There is no response by either officer." Do we have a dyslexic
dispatcher here? Evidence suggests that dyslexia results from
differences in how the brain processes written and/or spoken
language.

The strange thing about the order is that Officer R.C. Nelson, No
87, is also instructed to move into Central Oak Cliff along with
Tippit. Why would these two policemen be singled out to patrol a
district that was already being patrolled by Officer Wm. D. Mentzel.

Also strange about the dispatch; neither officer responded to the
dispatcher that they heard the order. The next time Nelson is heard
from is at 12:52 when he signaled the dispatcher and informed him that
he is " Out down here." At 1:22 Nelson again reports that he is at Elm
and Houston, the site of the assassination.

In 1984, Henry Hurt interviewed R.C. Nelson in a parking lot in
Corsicana, Texas, where Nelson was then in private business. Nelson
told the author that he had waited a long time to tell his story for
the public record, but not without payment.

When Hurt asked Nelson: "Did you hear the dispatcher's order telling
you to go there ?" Nelson replied, "I'm not sure what you mean. I had
rather not talk about that." He then told Hurt that he considered that
to be part of the story he was willing to negotiate. Hurt never did
get an answer. He was not willing to pay Nelson.
( HURT, pp.
161-62-63)

Sgt. Calvin Owens, J.D.'s supervisor for ten years was no help in
explaining the officer's movements. Owens , who was in his car at
12:45, when the order was allegedly given, did not know that Tippit
had been moved. He was surprised to learn that J.D.was in District 91
and went there when the officer was shot. At 1:33 Owens contacted the
dispatcher and asked him :" Do you know what kind of a call he was
on?" The dispatcher answered "What kind of what?" Owens asked, "Was he
on a call or anything?" The dispatcher answered, "NO."

The only reasonable answer to the tape discrepancies is that the
tapes were altered to place Tippit in the district where he died
without admitting his reason for being there. There is lots more
evidence to prove that the tapes were altered, but it would require
far too much time and space on this forum to accomplish.

Was Tippit on his own and looking for Oswald to kill him?

Lee also attempted to kill General Walker.So,we know that Lee was
capable of murder and he lied when he said he hadn't`t killed anyone,
However, the evidence that he killed Tippit was and still is
overwhelming and in a trial, Lee would certainly have been found
equity. On the other hand, is there any ABSOLUTE evidence that LHO
fired the murder weapon found in the TSBD other than the C-2766 serial
number found on that particular rifle.?

To deny killing anyone is rather normal with most murderers, and
surely Oswald knew that after getting legal representation, he would
be tried and it would be the responsibility of the District Attorney
to prove him guilty of both murders---JFK's and Tippit's. Because he
said "No sir, I did not kill anyone" was meaningless. To this day OJ
Simpson denies killing anyone and he is still allegedly looking for
the real killer or killers. You figure it out.

Even that alleged rifle evidence can be questioned. Any gunsmith worth
his pay will tell you that he can change any serial number on a weapon
to frame someone if he already knows the serial number of the
"patsy's" rifle. Someday that weapon in the National Archives will be
challenged as being the rifle ordered in the spring of 1963 by Lee
Harvey Oswald to kill Ret.Army Gen. Walker and the rifle wrapped in
the old Russian blanket in the garage of Ruth and Michael Paine.

Let us help Lee find the killers or killers of JFK and OJ find the
real killers.of his ex wife and Ron Goldman..

[Bud]

On Jan 9, 11:53 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:

So you are conceding that Tippit may have pulled out his revolver
upon seeing Oswald`s weapon or being shot as opposed to approaching
Oswald with his weapon out. You brought this up but lost interest in
it in a hurry. This why it`s a waste of time to engage most CTers in
the issues they raise, they just flit off onto some other subject.

>  Officer W.E. Barnes  dusted the right door ledge of Tippit's car
> because he'd been told that the killer had leaned on the door ("smear
> prints" were found, but "none of value" )
>
> Barnes is interviewed by David Belin regarding a particular photograph,
> Barnes Deposition Exhibit A:
>
> Q: ... Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that the
> vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that the
> way that you found the car when you got there?
> A: That is true.

When Barnes got there it was closed, that doesn`t mean it was closed
when Tippit spoke to Oswald. Callaway said he put Tippit revolver in
the front seat of the patrol car, he may have closed the window to
limit access to it.

> Q: Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or
> document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?
> A: That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all
> squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted
> persons
> Q: Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on
> this clipboard?
> A: Yes; we never read his clipboard.
> Q: That is the way you saw the clipboard there?
> A: That is the way it was.
> Q: It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard.
> Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any
> memorandum paper on the board?
> A: I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.
> Q: Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes Deposition
> Exhibit A?
> A: What?
> Q: Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be
> relevant?
> A: Not that I know. (7H273-74)
>
> Who took possession of the materials in the car,and who examined
> them ? What became of them?

What "materials"? You did read that the clipboard was attached to
the patrol car, right? The DPD "took possession" of the car, it was
theirs.

> Read; The Rosetta Stone of the JFK AssassinationPublished in Flagpole
> Magazine, p. 8 (November 20, 2002).
> Author: Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia

> School of Law.http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/jfk_19rosetta.html

>
> The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing.

This guy is an idiot.

> Thirty-nine-
> year-old Dallas police officer J. D. Tippit was shot to death near the
> intersection of Tenth and Patton Streets in the Oak Cliff section of
> Dallas shortly before 1:16 p.m. on November 22, 1963.  Tippit's death
> occurred about 45 minutes after JFK was shot in Dealey Plaza,
> approximately four miles away in downtown Dallas.  While cruising east in
> his marked police car on Patton, the uniformed Tippit came across a
> pedestrian walking in the same direction on the sidewalk.  Bringing his
> car to a stop, Tippit called the pedestrian to the car, whereupon the
> pedestrian approached and apparently spoke to Tippit through the (open
> right front vent window.)  After a brief conversation, Tippit exited his
> car and started to walk to the front of his car.  As he reached the left
> front wheel, the pedestrian pulled out a pistol and began shooting Tippit
> across the car hood.  Tippit, who by now had drawn his service revolver,
> fell into the street, and shortly thereafter the killer fled the scene.
> Half an hour later Oswald, while in possession of a .38 caliber pistol,
> was arrested at a movie theater approximately eight blocks away.
>
> ----------
> I had a car like that and it also had a vent window. I never talked to
> anyone through that vent that I can remember.
> ----- Raymond

One person witnesses the exchange between Tippit and Oswald. Markham
said they talked through the open window.

> Cont'dhttp://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page631.php

> Cont'dhttp://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol14/page644.php

But not enlightening. You will never figure this simple crime out,
Raymond, you focus on all the wrong things.

[Raymond]

misseda possibility of producing testimony that would lead to a

"rolled-over" agents of the intelligence community, they deserved a
hands-off treatment and a silent offering of immunity.

Ass't D.A. Wm. Alexander felt that "more should have been done with
the Paines." I agree, and it isn't too late.

Then, again, who was Alexander? Here was a guy who told the FBI that
he didn't know of any connection between Ruby and the underworld. If
there was such a connection, he believed "it would have come to the
attention of his office." He also had a signed pass to Ruby's club,
found among Ruby's possessions, and had spoke to Jack the day before
the assassination.

(CE 1628, CE 1322, pp.735-36 A microfilm of the actual cards revealed
a signed card for every name listed, except that of Alexander's card
is curiously missing.
JFK microfilm, Vol. 5, pp R 13-28)

But, Que scais-je? - What do I know?

According to Jack's employee, Andrew Armstrong, Jack knew JD . FBI

interview 1/ 23/64. In testimony to WC, Armstrong said when the news

requested and received a verbatim transcript - not one edited to

A book, No More Silence, written by Larry A . Sneed, provides more
information on the subject. I will leave that to interested people to
read , but it is convincing evidence that Ruby entered by way of the
door I described. The Sneed witnesses include police officers, deputy
sheriffs, and government officials.

Few honest researchers still believe that Jack entered via the ramp.

Jack Ruby was interviewed in the Dallas County Jail on Dec. 21, 1963
by FBI SA Hall and Clements regarding his Sunday morning trip to the
Western Union office, and his alleged ramp entrance to the basement of
the Police Department building. Jack furnished the following
information:
After sending the telegram, he left the Western Union office
and walked west on the same side of the street, toward the City Hall
located on the next corner. Before he reached the Police Department
building, he noticed a police officer standing at the entrance to the
ramp going into the basement from Main Street, but he did not know the
police officer. Just before he reached that point, a police car came
out of the basement, and he recognized the driver of the police car as
Lieut. PIERCE. He explained he had known Lt. PIERCE for twelve years.
PIERCE did not look toward him or speak to him and Ruby did not speak
to Lt. PIERCE. Ruby could not recall seeing anyone in the police car
with Lt. PIERCE in either the front or back seat of the police car.

As the police car driven by Lt. PIERCE came out of the basement
ramp, the officer on duty at the entrance stepped back and walked
toward the curb next to the street, with his back toward RUBY. As the
police car got even with this officer, the officer stooped down and
looked inside the car. At about this time, RUBY had reached the
entrance to the Main Street ramp, and he took in the movement of the
police car and the officer on duty at the ramp, with a quick glance.
Without breaking his stride or hesitating, RUBY turned to his left and
walked down the ramp into the basement. As he entered the ramp, he
does not recall seeing any person standing around the entrance, and he
does not know a former officer named DANIELS.
(HAll (C.Ray) Exhibit No. 3, p.11)

At 6:00 pm on the 20th. of November, Jack visited his Trichologist
for a baldness treatment which took about 30 minutes. (22 H. 913 and
Ce 1494) He should have made an appointment with his Optometrist as
well-he was not only losing his hair; he was apparently having a
problem with his vision as well. On Sunday, as Jack approached Lt.
PIERCE'S car at the top of the ramp, he was able to see Pierce who was
driving the car, but he did not see Sgt. Putnam who was in the front
seat of the patrol car (on Jack's side) or Sgt. Billy Joe Maxey in the
back seat. Neither did he see any person standing around the entrance
to the ramp. So Ruby failed to see two men in the car with PIERCE and
a former police officer, N.J. Daniels, who was standing at the top of
the ramp with the single patrolman guarding the entrance , R.E.
Vaughn.

"Vaughn denied that the emergence of Lt. Pierce's car from the
building distracted him long enough to allow Ruby to enter the ramp
unnoticed, and neither he nor any of the three officers in Lt.
Pierce's car saw Ruby enter."
(WR 221)

HE WHO HATH NOT A GOOD AND READY MEMORY SHOULD NEVER MEDDLE WITH
TELLING LIES.
--Montaigne: ESSAYS

Is it important how Ruby entered the police building to shoot Oswald?
Maybe not. On the other hand, why would Jack say he went down the
ramp? If he entered the building from some other entrance, he could
have admitted it. The result was the same-he was able to accomplish
his objective. However, if he was in touch with someone from the
police department, who was providing him with information about the
transfer and aided him in getting into the basement, then there was a
reason to lie. Ruby, a long time friend of many members of the
department, would not want to reveal the truth about their assistance.
Ruby was a police buff and had more than a passing acquaintance with
most of the Dallas police..

"The rulers of the state are the only ones that should have the
priviledge of lying, either at home or abroad; they may be allowed to
lie for the good of the state."
----- Plato: The Republic

At least three of the police officers told Larry Sneed, author of No
More Silence, that Ruby undoubtedly entered the basement via the
alleyway doors that ran north and south alongside the Western Union
office.

Officer Roy Vaughn, who was assigned to guard the top of the Main
Street ramp told Sneed: "There was a stairway that went from the first
floor down to the basement out of the Municipal Building." Vaughn
said , " Very easily somebody could have gone to the back door, which
is still there today, opened the door, let somebody in, walked
straight and come right into the basement. It wouldn't have been a
problem."

The officer explained that, in 1963, there were two possibilities to
enter the basement. There was a business college and a cafe next to
the Western Union. They have since been torn down, but at the time,
there was an alleyway behind these buildings that led to a door in the
Municipal Building. He said, " You could walk through that corridor,
open up another door, and that would take you right to the basement.
Vaughn, who survived a lie detector test, also claimed to have seen a
man go down the alley from Main Street, but could not say if it was
Ruby.

Lt. Rio Sam Pierce, who drove the car up the ramp and had known
Ruby for 8-10 years told Sneed that he did not see Ruby at the top of
the ramp. He also volunteered that, " There's also a number of ways he
could have gotton in." One of the ways was by the steps going down
into the basement off of Harwood Street.

Most interesting was the a statement made by Patrol Sergeant Donald
Flusche . Not on assignment that Sunday, Flusche parked on Main Street
across from the ramp to watch the transfer. He saw Vaughn guarding the
ramp and had a clear view of the sidewalk "all the way from the
Western Union Building to the ramp. " Asked if Ruby went down the
ramp, Flusche said, " That's a damn lie; it did not happen. I know
Jack Ruby on sight, and he did not go down that ramp." He also said
that the back door behind the business college was " generally left
unlocked on weekends during the day so its maintenance people and
building engineers could come and go."

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit,
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.

--- Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám





















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Raymond View profile
More options Jul 9 2008, 4:57 pm

Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk.uncensored
From: Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 14:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
Local: Wed, Jul 9 2008 4:57 pm
Subject: Re: Did Ruby Know J.D.Tippit?
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On Jun 29, 12:08 am, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:



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> Did Ruby Know J.D.Tippit?

> One observation of physics suggests that for every action
> there is a reaction.


> A similar condition seems to exist within the historic JFK
> assassination investigation. For every defender of a conspiracy
> theory, there is a champion for non-conspiracy.


> It appears that each of us begins with a pre-conceived notion about
> what is correct, and seek only evidence and testimony that supports
> our premise. And then, there are the predators that search for new
> analysts, from both sides of the issue ,hoping to find fault and
> create as much dissension as possible.


> A recent survey revealed that 85% of those individuals interviewed
> believe that the death of JFK involved a conspiracy. Yet, if these
> same participants, in the survey, were questioned about why; it
> becomes obvious that they know so little about the details of the
> event that their opinion is worth no more than their reason for having
> a favorite color.


> The Warren Wizards, themselves, were guilty of a similar pattern of
> conduct. If testimony of a witness failed to meet their eventual, pre-
> conceived, lone-assassin pronouncement, the witness became only a
> footnote.


> EXAMPLES: The testimony of Earlene Roberts, who said a police car

> stopped and blew the horn in front of the rooming house, while LHO was
> "getting his gun."


> Now, if Earlene had been an apartment owner, in Arlington, instead of
> a common landlady, in a cheap rooming house, in Oak Cliff, the

> Wizards might have devoted a chapter to the reliability of her
> testimony. Not the case. Roberts was "confused."


> Did Ruby know Tippit ? Not so, said the Wizards. On whose word did

> they rely? On the word of the hero of Nov. 24.-Jack Ruby himself - or

> the word of the honorable defenders of our homes and streets - the
> other officers of law within the Dallas community.


> Despite the claim of the WC that Tippit was not known to frequent
> nightclubs and had no reason during his tour of police duties to enter
> any of Ruby's clubs, there is testimony by Jack's sister, Eve Grant,
> to indicate that Tippit was in the Vegas nightclub not long before the
> assassination.


> From Eva's testimony when asked by a member of the WC staff if Jack
> knew J.D. Tippit - Grant answered:

> " I don't -I don't know, all I could tell you is that Jack lived in

> the Oak Cliff area for a couple of years or maybe a year and a half
> and Tippit, being of that area, he could have run into him and known
> him slightly. HE DIDN"T KNOW HIM AS WELL AS OTHER POLICEMAN much
> closer than him, but since all this happened, one of my coworkers,
> Leo Torti, showed me a magazine and Tippit was in our club sometime a
> month previous to this-previous to his killing."


> MR. HERBERT:" Was it a picture of Tippit?"
> GRANT: "It was a picture of Tippit, and he said, " Do you remember he
> talked to you up at the front, and he was in September or October or
> November sometime."


> BURLESON:" Was that the Carousel or the Vegas?"


> GRANT: "The Vegas, and while I looked at him I remembered that he
> looked familiar..."


> BURLESON:" Mr. Herbert, I think that is all I have along that line."
> Vol. 14, p 486.


> At this point of inquiry, the questioners ended what might have proven

> to be a fruitful revelation, but as wasgenerally the case, they muted
> the possibility of producing testimony that would lead to a possible
> conspiracy.

> When Harry Officer Harry Olsen was asked if Ruby knew Tippit:
> OLSEN: "It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit."


> SPECTER: "Why do you say , "It seemed that he did know Officer
> Tippit."


> OLSEN: I believe he said that Tippit had been to the club."
> Vol.: 14, p. 632


> The picture presented to the public by the DPD and the WC would appear
> to be the perfect family living in harmony with the world, but even

> before the revelations of J.D's adulterous conduct by the HSC in 1977,

> were "rolled-over" agents of the intelligence community, they deserved

> a hands-off treatment and a silent offering of immunity.


> Ass't D.A. Wm. Alexander felt that "more should have been done with
> the Paines." I agree, and it isn't too late.


> Then, again, who was Alexander? Here was a guy who told the FBI that
> he didn't know of any connection between Ruby and the underworld. If
> there was such a connection, he believed "it would have come to the
> attention of his office." He also had a signed pass to Ruby's club,
> found among Ruby's possessions, and had spoke to Jack the day before
> the assassination.


> (CE 1628, CE 1322, pp.735-36 A microfilm of the actual cards revealed
> a signed card for every name listed, except that of Alexander's card
> is curiously missing. JFK microfilm, Vol. 5, pp R 13-28)


> But, Que scais-je? - What do I know?

Page II

According to Jack's employee, Andrew Armstrong, Jack knew JD. FBI

interview 1/ 23/64. In testimony to WC, Armstrong said when the news

of the officer shot came over the radio "Jack jumped straight up and
said, 'I know him--I know him.' Andrew goes on to say that Eva Grant

later told him(Andrew) it was a different Tippit that Jack knew. (19

H
102-102),
(13 H 353)


Larry Crafard, Carousel handyman, was present when Jack said he knew
Tippit. "Yes, I think he (Jack) said he knew him (Tippit) (14 H 42)


Interview 8/21/64, Crafard had this to say to FBI: "He (Crafard)
does recall the name "Tippit" and recalls that he was in the presence
of
Ruby at the time the news came over the air concerning the
assassination
of President Kennedy and the death of Officer Tippit, and at that
time
Crafard recalls hearing Ruby refer to Tippit by name in a manner
indicating to Crafard that Ruby knew Tippit. (25 H 530 - 531)

Again Crafard was inteviewed by agents on 8/31/64: It is Crafard's

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Name ONE piece of evidence that you think is "rock solid" as evidence that Lee [Oswald] murdered JD Tippit. Let's examine it and see how solid it is." <<<

I'll name fifteen:

1.) The bullet shell found by Barbara Davis in her side yard (which
has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
about).

2.) The bullet shell found by Virginia Davis in her side yard (which
has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
about).

3.) Commission Exhibit No. 603, which is one of the four bullets
removed from J.D. Tippit's body. According to Illinois firearms expert
Joseph D. Nicol, that particular bullet (CE603) positively came out of
Lee Harvey Oswald's Smith & Wesson revolver.

Quoting Nicol --- "On specimen...[CE] 603...I found sufficient
individual characteristics to lead me to the conclusion that that
projectile was fired in the same weapon that fired the projectiles in
606."

4.) William Scoggins positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the
one and only gunman he saw leaving the scene of Officer Tippit's
murder.

5.) Ted Callaway positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the gunman
he saw leaving the scene of Officer Tippit's murder.

6.) Sam Guinyard positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the gunman
he saw leaving the scene of Officer Tippit's murder.

7.) Barbara Davis positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the
gunman she saw dumping bullet shells out of a gun as he cut across her
yard immediately after Tippit was shot.

8.) Virginia Davis positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the
gunman she saw leaving the scene of Tippit's murder on 11/22/63.
Virginia Davis, just like Barbara Davis, witnessed Oswald emptying
shells out of his gun as he cut through her yard at the corner of
Tenth Street and Patton Avenue.

9.) B.M. Patterson positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the
gunman he saw leaving the scene of Officer Tippit's murder.

10.) Helen Markham positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the one
and only gunman she saw shoot J.D. Tippit on 11/22/63.

(If needed, I can also add a few more witnesses to this list who
positively identified Oswald as he fled the general area of the Tippit
murder.)

11.) When arrested in the Texas Theater just 35 minutes after Tippit
was killed, Lee Harvey Oswald exhibited behavior that can only be
interpreted as the behavior of a person who was guilty of some type of
crime. This behavior included pulling a gun on the arresting officer,
striking the arresting officer in the face, and uttering one or two
verbal statements that reek with guilt. Those statements being "This
is it" and/or "It's all over now".

12.) At approximately 1:36 PM CST on 11/22/63, which was approximately
20 to 22 minutes after Officer Tippit had been shot, Lee Harvey Oswald
was seen by Johnny Brewer in front of the Hardy's Shoe Store on
Jefferson Boulevard, a short distance from the scene of Tippit's
murder. Brewer, in his 12/6/63 sworn affidavit, said that Oswald
"acted as if he was scared" as he stood in front of the shoe store.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-edZe44WR-1g/Tvw4zuMtq3I/AAAAAAAABvU/gTbdK5VrbMk/s1200-h/Johnny-Brewer-Affidavit.gif

13.) After he was apprehended, Oswald lied to the police when he told
them that he had purchased his revolver in Fort Worth, Texas. The
police would later learn that Oswald had actually obtained the gun
from a Los Angeles, California, mail-order company.

This 13th item, Oswald's blatant and easily provable lie about where
he bought the gun, is very powerful "consciousness of guilt"
circumstantial evidence. If LHO had been innocent of shooting anyone
with that particular Smith & Wesson revolver, then logically he would
have had no reason whatsoever to lie to the police about where he
purchased that gun.

Oswald, quite obviously, was attempting to distance himself as much as
he could from the Tippit murder weapon--even though he knew that he
was caught with that murder weapon in his own hands when he was
arrested.

I'll end my list with two items that don't prove Lee Oswald shot
Officer Tippit, but these things certainly do lead in that direction:

14.) Both shortly before and shortly after J.D. Tippit was shot on
Tenth Street in the Dallas suburb of Oak Cliff, Lee Harvey Oswald was
seen (on foot) in Oak Cliff. Oswald, shortly before Tippit was
murdered, was seen by Earlene Roberts as he quickly left his
roominghouse at 1026 North Beckley Avenue. And he was seen (again on
foot) by Johnny Brewer on Jefferson Boulevard less than 25 minutes
after Tippit was killed.

Brewer told the Warren Commission that Oswald "looked funny to me".
Brewer also said that Oswald's "hair was sort of messed up and [he]
looked like he had been running, and he looked scared." (7 H 4)

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_0006b.htm

Lee Harvey Oswald just being in the general area of the Tippit murder
both shortly BEFORE and just AFTER Tippit was shot is evidence that
deserves to be considered very heavily. And the fact that Oswald was
carrying a gun during this same period also must be factored into the
overall weighing of the evidence too.

Add to this the fact that the gun Oswald was carrying in Oak Cliff on
November 22, 1963, was determined by firearms experts to positively be
the gun that ended the life of Officer J.D. Tippit. That fact, all by
itself, pretty much seals the deal. Oswald shot Tippit. There's no
doubt about it.

15.) It is also known that Lee Harvey Oswald ran into the Texas
Theater without buying a movie ticket. That fact, of course, does not
prove LHO shot anybody, but it certainly indicates that Oswald was
very anxious to get inside that darkened movie theater just a half-
hour after a policeman was killed nearby.

For, if he had not just done something that required him to get off
the street very quickly, then why wouldn't he pay for his movie ticket
at the box office? He had more than $13 in his pocket, so we know he
could have paid for a ticket if he had wanted to do so.

This act of ducking into the theater without purchasing a ticket is
another circumstantial piece of evidence that must be considered and
weighed when trying to determine whether or not Oswald shot Officer
Tippit. And such an act on Oswald's part, occurring less than half-an-
hour after Tippit was slain, is certainly an act that leads more
toward "guilt" than it does "innocence" (especially when weighed in
conjunction with items 1 through 14 above).

David Von Pein
January 10, 2012

http://JFK-Archives.blogspot.com/2011/04/index.html#JD-Tippit

[Walt]

On Jan 10, 9:15 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> "Name ONE piece of evidence that you think is "rock solid" as evidence that Lee [Oswald] murdered JD Tippit. Let's examine it and see how solid it is." <<<
>
> I'll name fifteen:
>
> 1.) The bullet shell found by Barbara Davis in her side yard (which
> has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
> about).

Chain of custody???.... Are you referring to the shell that was found
several hours after the shooting? The area was thoroughly searched
by the DPD for spent shells,but after they left the scene Barbara
Davis finds a spent shell....How convenient...... Where did this
shell come from??

>
> 2.) The bullet shell found by Virginia Davis in her side yard (which
> has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
> about).
>
> 3.) Commission Exhibit No. 603, which is one of the four bullets
> removed from J.D. Tippit's body. According to Illinois firearms expert
> Joseph D. Nicol, that particular bullet (CE603) positively came out of
> Lee Harvey Oswald's Smith & Wesson revolver.

The FBI could NOT trace any of the bullets from Tippit's body to
Oswald's revolver. But just like in many trials the prosecution
attorneys and the defence attorney's find some "expert" that will
testify in their favor. Such is the case here, The warren Commission
simply found an "expert" who would say what they wanted him to say.
And furthermore as I recall, FBI agent Cunningham testified that even
using a microscope he couldn't find any identical markings on any of
the four bullets recovered from Tippit's body. IOW the four bullets
could have been fired from four different guns as far as balistic
testing was concerned. And no I'm not suggesting they were fired
from four different guns, I'm merely saying that even with four
bullets in hand Cunningham couldn't find a single thing that proved
that the had all been fired from the same gun.

There was no expert who could swear that the bullets from Tippit's
body had been fired from Oswald's revolver until the prosecution
decided they needed an "expert" to testify against Oswald......That's
when they found Nicol

>
> Quoting Nicol --- "On specimen...[CE] 603...I found sufficient
> individual characteristics to lead me to the conclusion that that
> projectile was fired in the same weapon that fired the projectiles in
> 606."
>
> 4.) William Scoggins positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the
> one and only gunman he saw leaving the scene of Officer Tippit's
> murder.

William Scoggins was hiding behind his cab and saw the BACK of a man
running from the scene...He had no way of knowing if that man was the
same man who had just shot Tippit. Hell, for all he knew that man
could have been a pedestrain hat was just getting the hell out of the
area.

>
> 5.) Ted Callaway positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the gunman
> he saw leaving the scene of Officer Tippit's murder.

Ted Callaway said the gunman was carrying a blue steel 32 automatic,
and was dressed in a jacket that was darker than the jacket the Warren
Commission showed him. Ted Callaway was a blowhard who jumped on the
bandwagon looking for his 15 minutes of fame by identifing Oswald as
the man he saw running with the 32 automatic AFTER he saw LHO on TV
and AFTER the police were saying that they were sure that they had the
killer.

>
> 6.) Sam Guinyard positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the gunman
> he saw leaving the scene of Officer Tippit's murder.

Sam Guinard worked for Ted Callaway..... Are you so stupid that you
think Guinyard would contradict his boss??

>
> 7.) Barbara Davis positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald as the
> gunman she saw dumping bullet shells out of a gun as he cut across her
> yard immediately after Tippit was shot.
>

Riiiiight!......Barbra Davis said the gunman was wearing BLACK coat.
Do you really believe she knew what the killer looked like when she
couldn't even identify the COLOR of the man's jacket??


This is just a start at rebutting you're BS..... I'm busy, but will
continue later.

> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-edZe44WR-1g/Tvw4zuMtq3I/AAAAAAAABvU/gTbdK5V...

> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_000...

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Because it appears in a post that I submitted does not mean that I
agree with it." <<<

Yes, Raymond, I know that.

And I also know that that quote I cited was not written by the person who
posted it at acj/aaj.

And, in fact, I didn't even realize--or care--that it was you who posted
it. It didn't matter to me WHO was the author of such nonsense about the
evidence of Oswald's guilt in the Tippit shooting being "unconvincing", I
just wanted to post my rebuttal to that statement-- regardless of who
wrote it.

[Raymond]

Bud You get upset too easily. Settle down. You are right about much
of what you say.

However, Callaway put the revolver on the hood of the car. He testified
that SOMEONE put the gun on the front seat. After he helped loading the
body into the ambulance he removed the gun from the front seat.

Mr. Ball.
When you got there what did you see?
Mr. Callaway.
I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that
had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw--I went on up
to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. I see
he had been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to
the squad car. I didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. So I
got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been
shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They
said we know about it, stay off the air, so I went back.
By this time an ambulance was coming. The officer was laying on his

left side, his pistol was underneath him. I kind of rolled him over

and took his gun out from under him. The people wonder whether he ever

got his pistol out of his holster. He did.

Mr. Ball.
The pistol was out of the holster?
Mr. Callaway.
Yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. It was on his
right side. He was laying with the gun under him.
Mr. Ball.
What did you do?
Mr. Callaway.
I picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad car, and then
SOMEONE put it in the front seat of the squad car. Then after I helped
load Officer Tippit in the ambulance, I got the gun out of the car and
told this cab driver, I said, "You saw the guy didn't you?" He said,
yes.

I said, "If he is going up Jefferson, he can't be very far. Let's see
if we can find him." So I went with Scoggins in the taxicab, went up
to 10th, Crawford, from Crawford up to Jefferson, and down Jefferson
to Beckley. And we turned on Beckley. If we had kept going up
Jefferson, we probably--there is a good chance we would have seen him,
because he was headed right towards the Texas Theatre. But then we
circled around several blocks, and ended up coming back to where it
happened.

Markham testified that JD rolled the window down and they talked.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.
"Mr. LANE. You heard the police car stop?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I seen it.
"Mr. LANE. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever
it was, walked over to the car?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.
"Mr. LANE. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down the window.
"Mr. LANE. He did what?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. He rolled down his window.
Mrs. Markham.
"Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.
"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down,
because, you see, he leaned over in the window.
"Mr. LANE. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station
when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. I told them that at the scene of the murder.
"Mr. LANE. You told the officers the description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy
side and had slightly bushy hair?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.
"Mr. LANE. They never asked you his description?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.
"Mr. LANE. Just what he was wearing?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
"Mr. LANE. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like
that?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. No, sir.
"Mr. LANE. Well, you went to the police station where they took your
affidavit, right?
" Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes."

Bud, someone had to have rolled the window back up. Maybe you know who. I
don't know who. But it is unlikely that JD did since after the two men
talked LHO started to walk away and JD got out of the car and started
around the driver's side when LHO fired across the hood at him

SEE the picture of the car. The vent window is open and the main
window is rolled up.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=333692
Warren Commission Document Photos: Site of Tippit Shooting Photos -
Page 1
http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_WCD_Photos_-_Site_of_Tippit_Shooting_-_p1

Repeat:
Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.
"Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
"Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.
"Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.
"Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?
"Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down,
because, you see, he leaned over in the window.

Is it so important that you have to resort to calling people idiots when
they are doing their best to explain themselves and what they understand
to be the correct story? Shame on you.

JD is dead. LHO was caught and he is also dead. It is obvious that LHO
killed the cop.. The damn fool kept the gun that was used to kill the man.
The shells came from the gun in LHO's possession. I wonder why Lee had to
be so extreme in his action.

People don't like you because you are crude. If you were more civil, you
could convince more people that you know what you are talking about. I
generally avoid reading what you offer since I have been insulted by you
on other occasions.

I feel that you don't care what other people think. We all make mistakes
and lots of errors were made by numerous people especially early on. It is
49 years since the event. New generations are becoming interested in the
death of the president so many mistakes will be made by them in their
research. Help them if you can.

What you get by achieving your goal is not as important as what you become
by achieving your goal.

If you have read this far, you are a person who wants to improve yourself
and improve the way people live around you and with you. Together we can
work a miracle for generations to come

Raymond

[David Von Pein]

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/401dba6c327c1545


Walt Cakebread's rebuttal (linked above) to my last post is beyond
laughable.

Walt thinks that just because Sam Guinyard worked for Ted Callaway
(and since Callaway positively IDed LHO), this means that Guinyard
would be more than willing to do the very same thing--even though (per
Walt) it's obvious that Guinyard didn't see Oswald at all. Guinyard
just SAID he saw Oswald just because Callaway said the same thing.

Can Walt's "Anybody But Oswald" schtick possibly get any flimsier and
lame?

(Answer -- Yes, it can. Read on...)

This one's a real hum-dinger from Mr. ABO Cakebread (hang on to your
seats):

Walt thinks that Bill Scoggins is a terrible witness. This is a man
(Scoggins) who saw a man whom he would later that day I.D. as OSWALD.
And he saw the man from fairly close range (as did the two Davis
girls, who are also lousy witnesses, per Walt The Kook).

Plus: Scoggins actually heard Oswald say "Poor dumb cop" or "Poor damn
cop".

Plus: Scoggins saw the gun in Oswald's hand. ("He had a pistol in his
left hand," Scoggins told the WC.)

But, per the retard named Cakebread, Scoggins might very well have
seen merely a passing pedestrian on the street -- which just happened
to be a passing pedestrian who was CARRYING A GUN and who just
happened to make the remark "POOR DUMB COP". And, of course, this
passing pedestrian just happened to be Oswald's identical twin too.

As Bud has said many times (and Walt's latest bullshit attempt to
exonerate a cop killer named Oswald is just the latest example among
thousands):

The conspiracy kooks on the Internet are the very LAST people in this
world who should be looking into the JFK case.

Because to those kooks, day will always be night. Guilty will always
be innocent. And cop killers will be turned into gun-toting
"pedestrians".

Walt should be embarrassed to type another word on his keyboard about
the Tippit murder. But, of course, he's not the least bit red-faced.
In fact, he's proud of his efforts to exonerate a proven double
murderer.

I can't wait to hear Walt's limp and lame excuses for my 11th item
listed above. This one repeated below:

"11.) When arrested in the Texas Theater just 35 minutes after
Tippit was killed, Lee Harvey Oswald exhibited behavior that can only
be interpreted as the behavior of a person who was guilty of some type
of crime. This behavior included pulling a gun on the arresting
officer, striking the arresting officer in the face, and uttering one
or two verbal statements that reek with guilt. Those statements being

"This is it" and/or "It's all over now"." -- DVP

Let's now watch Walt try to take that gun out of Oswald's hands. And
let's watch further as Walt tries to pretend that "IT'S ALL OVER NOW"
and/or "THIS IS IT" are things that were uttered by a totally innocent
patsy. And let's watch still further as Walt tries to pretend that
Oswald either didn't hit M.N. McDonald in the face with his fist at
all, or that such an act of physical violence toward a member of the
DPD doesn't mean a damn thing when it comes to determining if Oswald
was guilty of ANYTHING at all on 11/22/63 (if, that is, Walt can
actually keep from being a retarded ABO kook long enough to admit the
truth about the fact that McDonald was, indeed, belted in the face by
LHO).

You're up, Mr. Walter Kookbread. Don't let me down now. Because I need
my daily acj belly laugh. And you're always ready and eager to provide
it.

[David Von Pein]

Bud might be "crude" and rough with CTers at times (lots of times, in
fact). But there is nobody on these forums that exhibits more common
sense day after day than does Bud.

And, IMO, most of the "Anybody But Oswald" CTers around these parts
deserve every bit of "crudeness" that is flung their way by Bud (or
anyone else, including me).

Did you read Walt's latest attempt to clean Oswald's skirts in
Tippit's murder? Scoggins saw a gun-carrying "pedestrian" instead of
Tippit's killer? That was Walt's suggestion.

That's the level of desperation the Anybody-But-Oz kooks on these
forums exhibit on a daily basis. Been that way for years. And the
number of "ABO" clowns with respect to BOTH the Kennedy AND Tippit
murders seems to be growing among Internet CTers.

My guess would be that among the CTers who post regularly at acj,
Lancer, MacRae's forum, Harris' forum, and The Education Forum, the
pct. of "Anybody But Oswald" kooks would be close to 85% or 90% (just
based on a rough guesstimate).

It's amazing how many Internet CTers now actually believe Oswald
didn't shoot J.D. Tippit. (Pathetic...but amazing.)

[aeffects]

On Jan 10, 9:49 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> Bud might be "crude" and rough with CTers at times (lots of times, in
> fact). But there is nobody on these forums that exhibits more common
> sense day after day than does Bud.

who are you trying to kid you usless moron... we've been hip to your
nonsense and ignorant denial for years now....

> And, IMO, most of the "Anybody But Oswald" CTers around these parts
> deserve every bit of "crudeness" that is flung their way by Bud (or
> anyone else, including me).

its called America dipshit, we have questions regarding a possible
conspiracy in the murder of JFK we demand answers. Opinions and
distractions forthcoming from lone nut trolls is wanting... the mere
fact lone nut trolls continually have to defend, excuse, prop up and
LIE (after 45 years) the WCR is telling in and of itself...

> Did you read Walt's latest attempt to clean Oswald's skirts in
> Tippit's murder? Scoggins saw a gun-carrying "pedestrian" instead of
> Tippit's killer? That was Walt's suggestion.

dragging Tippit's murder into whether or not it was a conspiracy to
kill JFK is utter nonsense, you know as well as Bud the Dudster that's
a fruitless exercise. Yet disinfo trolls continue.... You DO know the
title of this board don't ya dipshit?

> That's the level of desperation the Anybody-But-Oz kooks on these
> forums exhibit on a daily basis. Been that way for years. And the
> number of "ABO" clowns with respect to BOTH the Kennedy AND Tippit
> murders seems to be growing among Internet CTers.

ah, has the thoughtoccurred to you that *after* a thorough review of
the WCR and additional info-data in the past 45 years, there appears
questions concerning LHO's involvement, possibly his NON-involvement
in the murder? Desperation? I doubt it, at least on CTer's part. Now
considering your Lone Nut posting habits on USENET boards (some not
even created yet including your own, financed by whomever) what, some
100,000 posts on your part, ALONE. Seems to me its YOU that's
desperate.... your faith in the WCR is crushed thus you're over-
reacting.... gotta chill dude!

> My guess would be that among the CTers who post regularly at acj,
> Lancer, MacRae's forum, Harris' forum, and The Education Forum, the
> pct. of "Anybody But Oswald" kooks would be close to 85% or 90% (just
> based on a rough guesstimate).

we've been throwing around thay "up to 90% of thinking Americans" (and
more elsewhere overseas) for quite awhile now, in fact, for years...
Glad you finally can face that reality.

> It's amazing how many Internet CTers now actually believe Oswald
> didn't shoot J.D. Tippit. (Pathetic...but amazing.)

internet CT's? How about most *informed* folks, at the very least
those informed folks have a hell of a lot of questions the WCR does
not answer.... keep coming back son, there's more to life than filling
folks bodies with cholesterol....

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Chain of custody? Are you referring to the shell that was found several hours after the shooting? The area was thoroughly searched by the DPD for spent shells, but after they left the scene Barbara Davis finds a spent shell. How convenient. Where did this shell come from?" <<<

The shell came from Oswald's gun as he was emptying his gun of shells
after he murdered Tippit, of course.

And V. Davis found still another shell at a separate time from Barbara
too.

So this means that Kook Walt gets to pretend that BOTH of the Davis
shells were planted by somebody after the shooting.

But since Walt believes that it was the DPD themselves who were
switching all the evidence around to frame Oswald, how much sense
would it make for the evil DPD to throw down two shells in the Davis
side yard? What if nobody ever found them at all? Or what if the Davis
girls decided to not call the police about the shells they found? What
then? Would the evil cops have then planted MORE shells in the Davis
yard until somebody finally found one and called the cops to come pick
it up?

In a frame-up scenario, it would make much more sense to just have the
evil cops pretend they found a couple more shells in the Davis yard,
instead of tossing them in the yard and then just hoping somebody
would find them and call the police.

I don't know why the police didn't initially find the two Davis shells
themselves when they were at the Tippit crime scene on Nov. 22. But we
know they didn't see them on the ground, because if they had then
obviously the cops themselves would have picked them up.

Also keep in mind that it was yet a third civilian (Benavides) who
found the first two bullet shells in or near the Davis front yard. It
wasn't the police who found those either. In fact, Benavides said he
was concerned that the cops were goping to just leave them there,
which is what prompted him to go pick them up in the first place. He
was thinking the cops weren't going to find them. And perhaps they
wouldn't have if it wasn't for Domingo's help.

But let's have Walt explain the logic of the cops throwing two shells
down in the Davis yard several hours after Tippit was killed. The evil
bad-guy cops already had the TWO shells found by Benavides. So why did
they feel there was any need to plant still more shells? Just for the
fun of it?

I guess maybe it was similar to the "backyard photo" fakery that the
kooks think occurred in this case. You know, the theory that has some
plotters faking two or three photos of Oswald, even when one REAL and
genuine picture of the VERY SAME THING exists already.

The plotters must have all been members of the "FAKE STUFF WE DON'T
NEED AT ALL" fraternity. Eh, Walter?

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Dragging Tippit's murder into whether or not it was a conspiracy to kill JFK is utter nonsense, you know as well as Bud the Dudster that's a fruitless exercise." <<<

So, you'd rather just not talk about the Tippit murder at all, eh
Healy? You think that Tippit's murder (committed by Oswald, of course)
has no "connection" whatsoever to the murder of the man who just
happened to be killed (with Oswald's rifle) while driving by the place
where Tippit's murderer was located when JFK drove by the TSBD?

Yeah, who in their right mind would ever try to connect those two
crimes, right Healy?

[aeffects]

On Jan 10, 7:15 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:

<snip>

you're copying and pasting dipso.... nad up, puss! and stay focused!

[aeffects]

On Jan 10, 12:33 pm, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>> "Dragging Tippit's murder into whether or not it was a conspiracy to kill JFK is utter nonsense, you know as well as Bud the Dudster that's a fruitless exercise." <<<
>
> So, you'd rather just not talk about the Tippit murder at all, eh
> Healy?

Irrelevant in determining if a conspiracy murdered JFK moron, you
selling books for Dale *look at my EMMY* Myers son?

You think that Tippit's murder (committed by Oswald, of course)
> has no "connection" whatsoever to the murder of the man who just
> happened to be killed (with Oswald's rifle) while driving by the place
> where Tippit's murderer was located when JFK drove by the TSBD?

Tippits murder (committed by other than Oswald, likely) is irrelevant
in the murder of JFK. focus on the boards title, troll...

I suspect Kennedy limo went by the Chief of Police office in Dallas,
maybe even the mayor's office, possibly VP's Johnson re-election
office... does THAT mean they too were involved in the murder of JFK?
Ya need to grow up and nad up dude...

I understand your WCR faith is stricken with doubt--we're here to help
lone nut trolls, such as you, with that very problem....

Stop hiding behind other Dallas murders...

> Yeah, who in their right mind would ever try to connect those two
> crimes, right Healy?

son, you're answering your own question[s, you're backed into a
corner... .john is your salvation, pray!

[Bud]

What makes you think I`m upset? I didn`t use all caps or put seven
exclamation points after my comment like conspiracy retards tend to
do.

> You are right about much
> of what you say.

Especially the part about the guy you quoted being an idiot.

I`ve been trying to help you, teach you not to obsess about these
trivial matters but you don`t seem to take my advice.

> But it is unlikely that JD did since after the two men
> talked LHO started to walk away and JD got out of the car and started
> around the driver's side when LHO fired across the hood at him
>
> SEE the picture of the car. The vent window is open and the main
> window is rolled up.
>

> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId...

> Warren Commission Document Photos: Site of Tippit Shooting Photos -

> Page 1http://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/index.php/Photos_-_WCD_Photos_-_Site_...

>
> Repeat:
> Mr. LANE. The officer rolled down the window?
> "Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; uh-huh.
> "Mr. LANE. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.
> "Mrs. MARKHAM. Sir?
> "Mr. LANE. That was not in your affidavit.
> "Mrs. MARKHAM. It should have been.
> "Mr. LANE. It should have been--you told that to the officers?
> "Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down,
> because, you see, he leaned over in the window.
>
> Is it so important that you have to resort to calling people idiots when
> they are doing their best to explain themselves and what they understand
> to be the correct story? Shame on you.

I called the guy an idiot because he wrote this...

"The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing."

Only an idiot or a person ignorant of the evidence would say such a
thing. I don`t think that the guy is ignorant of the evidence.

> JD is dead.  LHO was caught and he is also dead. It is obvious that LHO
> killed the cop.. The damn fool kept the gun that was used to kill the man.
> The shells came from the gun in LHO's possession. I wonder why Lee had to
> be so extreme in his action.
>
> People don't like you because you are crude.

Really? I thought that was my most endearing trait.

> If you were more civil, you
> could convince more people that you know what you are talking about.

If conspiracy retards weren`t such idiots I wouldn`t have to be
crude. They started it.

And I`m not trying to convince anyone of anything. If someone has a
lick of sense they can figure these crimes out. If they don`t, they
can`t.

> I
> generally avoid reading what you offer since I have been insulted by you
> on other occasions.

I think thats a good policy, and suggest you either stop posting in
my newsgroup or killfile me to avoid being insulted.

> I feel that you don't care what other people think.

No, I don`t care what idiots think.

> We all make mistakes
> and lots of errors were made by numerous people especially early on. It is
> 49 years since the event. New generations are becoming interested in the
> death of the president so many mistakes will be made by them in their
> research.  Help them if you can.

New generations are not becoming interested in this.

And you sure as hell are only going to confuse and distract the few
that might be interested by making an issue out of whether Tippit`s
window was up or down.

> What you get by achieving your goal is not as important as what you become
> by achieving your goal.

I have no goals, I`m not trying to accomplish anything other than to
take some of the enjoyment idiots get out of this stupid hobby.

> If you have read this far, you are a person who wants to improve yourself
> and improve the way people live around you and with you. Together we can
> work a miracle for generations to come

Yah Raymond, lets work together to stamp out conspiracy retards.

> Raymond

[David Von Pein]

>>> "Tippit's murder (committed by other than Oswald, likely) is irrelevant in the murder of JFK." <<<

As everybody who isn't a total loon/kook knows, Tippit's murder is
extremely relevant to JFK's murder, and that's because the same person
(Oswald) killed both men (JFK & Tippit).

Why did the WC and HSCA spend so much time investigating the Tippit
murder if it was truly "irrelevant"?


>>> "I suspect Kennedy's limo went by the Chief of Police office in Dallas, maybe even the mayor's office, possibly VP's Johnson re-election office... does THAT mean they too were involved in the murder of JFK?" <<<

I guess Healy must have forgotten that JFK wasn't killed while driving
by those places (if he did drive by them). He was only killed while
driving by that other workplace I mentioned--the TSBD, which is the
place where Tippit's killer was located when JFK was being killed.

Do you need me to draw you a map, Mr. Crackpipe?

(Healy isn't REALLY this dense and thick.....is he? Or is he? Maybe
it's just the crack and acid that's talking.)

>>> "Ya need to grow up and nad up dude..." <<<

You need to lay off the crack and acid for a day, Davey.

(BTW, can anybody here think of a 60-year-old man besides Healy who
actually delights in writing "nad up dude" in almost every half-
literate message he pens on Internet forums? I can think of no
others.)

[David Von Pein]

Addendum....

I must say, though, Healy -- your last post came recklessly close to a
post that actually talked about the JFK case.

It didn't quite make it, but at least it had a few thoughts strung
together. They were stupid and retarded thoughts -- such as Tippit's
murder not relating in any way to the JFK case; and your insane
attempt at trying to compare the TSBD with other locations in Dallas
where no shooting occurred at all -- but at least you typed a few
extra words before needing to refill your crackpipe.

[aeffects]

yep, you been taking on the chin and up the gazzo lately, too..... can
tell by your sparkling personality ROTFLMFAO! ! ! !

<snip>

[aeffects]

you're scrambling troll.... join Tink and the gang at the Ed Forum,
Lampoon-Lammie Lansom is on the ropes, again, forever making a damn
fool out of himself... however some nutters are actually displaying
nads there unlike weenies such as yourself, a polluter of the human
digestive track....

see, I never mentioned the Zapruder film...... nad up Gloria R-O-T-F-L-
M-F-A-O! ! ! ! !

[Ben Holmes]

In article <40d80314-a50a-4025...@n30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
Walt says...
>
>On Jan 10, 9:15=A0am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>> "Name ONE piece of evidence that you think is "rock solid" as evidenc=
>e that Lee [Oswald] murdered JD Tippit. Let's examine it and see how solid =

>it is." <<<
>>
>> I'll name fifteen:
>>
>> 1.) The bullet shell found by Barbara Davis in her side yard (which
>> has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
>> about).
>
>Chain of custody???.... Are you referring to the shell that was found
>several hours after the shooting? The area was thoroughly searched
>by the DPD for spent shells,but after they left the scene Barbara
>Davis finds a spent shell....How convenient...... Where did this
>shell come from??

The kook doesn't *want* to name just one... he want's to "swamp post" you with a
mountain.

The fact that each individual item can be refuted, and DVP has no answer to it,
demonstrates their inherent dishonesty.

This is why you can't pin these kooks down... they're like jello.

Try to pin them to a SINGLE fact, and they squiggle and squirm until they're
someplace else.

And, of course, DVP's a liar.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com

[Bud]

On Jan 10, 9:14 pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
> In article <40d80314-a50a-4025-a9b9-cfc6caf51...@n30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

> Walt says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 10, 9:15=A0am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >>> "Name ONE piece of evidence that you think is "rock solid" as evidenc=
> >e that Lee [Oswald] murdered JD Tippit. Let's examine it and see how solid =
> >it is." <<<
>
> >> I'll name fifteen:
>
> >> 1.) The bullet shell found by Barbara Davis in her side yard (which
> >> has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
> >> about).
>
> >Chain of custody???.... Are you referring to the shell that was found
> >several hours after the shooting?   The area was thoroughly searched
> >by the DPD for spent shells,but after they left the scene Barbara
> >Davis finds a spent shell....How convenient......   Where did this
> >shell come from??
>
> The kook doesn't *want* to name just one... he want's to "swamp post" you with a
> mountain.

Yes, there is a mountain of evidence indicating Le Harvey Oswald
committed these crimes.

> The fact that each individual item can be refuted, and DVP has no answer to it,
> demonstrates their inherent dishonesty.

The fact that conspiracy retards have spent decades dreaming up
reasons to disregard or contest this mountain of evidence demonstrates
their retardation.

What has to be true for the counter ideas of the kooks to be valid?
A huge, coordinated effort that the retards can`t show, being
everywhere, working with superhuman precision and foresight. Either
that or LHO was just guilty as that mountain of evidence indicates.

> This is why you can't pin these kooks down... they're like jello.

We are rock solid. People said they saw Oswald kill people because
Oswald killed people.

> Try to pin them to a SINGLE fact, and they squiggle and squirm until they're
> someplace else.
>
> And, of course, DVP's a liar.

You`ve thrown out some ad hominem, coward, now back behind your
killfilter before someone calls on you to support what you say.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Walt]

On Jan 10, 8:14 pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
> In article <40d80314-a50a-4025-a9b9-cfc6caf51...@n30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,

> Walt says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Jan 10, 9:15=A0am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >>> "Name ONE piece of evidence that you think is "rock solid" as evidenc=
> >e that Lee [Oswald] murdered JD Tippit. Let's examine it and see how solid =
> >it is." <<<
>
> >> I'll name fifteen:
>
> >> 1.) The bullet shell found by Barbara Davis in her side yard (which
> >> has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
> >> about).
>
> >Chain of custody???.... Are you referring to the shell that was found
> >several hours after the shooting?   The area was thoroughly searched
> >by the DPD for spent shells,but after they left the scene Barbara
> >Davis finds a spent shell....How convenient......   Where did this
> >shell come from??
>
> The kook doesn't *want* to name just one... he want's to "swamp post" you with a
> mountain.
>
> The fact that each individual item can be refuted, and DVP has no answer to it,
> demonstrates their inherent dishonesty.
>
> This is why you can't pin these kooks down... they're like jello.
>
> Try to pin them to a SINGLE fact, and they squiggle and squirm until they're
> someplace else.
>
> And, of course, DVP's a liar.

Isn't it the truth!.... I asked the asshole to post just one piece
of evidence that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Lee Oswald was
the man who shot JD Tippit. And he takes off in a ranting and raving
tirade...... He knows that he can't produce a single piece of evidence
that proves that Lee oswald was guilty, therefore he attempts to evade
the issue by swamp posting. The dumb bastard is too stupid to realize
that most folks are smart enough to see what he's attempting to do. If
he were just a tad smarter he'd realize that he's merely destroying
what little credibility he has, by lying and evading.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Ben Holmes]

In article <5ee07ce3-2f60-48ff...@24g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,
Walt says...
>
>On Jan 10, 8:14=A0pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>> In article <40d80314-a50a-4025-a9b9-cfc6caf51...@n30g2000yqd.googlegroups=
>.com>,
>> Walt says...
>>
>> >On Jan 10, 9:15=3DA0am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> "Name ONE piece of evidence that you think is "rock solid" as evid=
>enc=3D
>> >e that Lee [Oswald] murdered JD Tippit. Let's examine it and see how sol=
>id =3D

>> >it is." <<<
>>
>> >> I'll name fifteen:
>>
>> >> 1.) The bullet shell found by Barbara Davis in her side yard (which
>> >> has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
>> >> about).
>>
>> >Chain of custody???.... Are you referring to the shell that was found

>> >several hours after the shooting? =A0 The area was thoroughly searched

>> >by the DPD for spent shells,but after they left the scene Barbara

>> >Davis finds a spent shell....How convenient...... =A0 Where did this
>> >shell come from??
>>
>> The kook doesn't *want* to name just one... he want's to "swamp post" you=
> with a
>> mountain.
>>
>> The fact that each individual item can be refuted, and DVP has no answer =

>to it,
>> demonstrates their inherent dishonesty.
>>
>> This is why you can't pin these kooks down... they're like jello.
>>

>> Try to pin them to a SINGLE fact, and they squiggle and squirm until they=

>'re
>> someplace else.
>>
>> And, of course, DVP's a liar.
>
>
>Isn't it the truth!.... I asked the asshole to post just one piece
>of evidence that proves beyond a shadow of doubt that Lee Oswald was
>the man who shot JD Tippit. And he takes off in a ranting and raving
>tirade...... He knows that he can't produce a single piece of evidence
>that proves that Lee oswald was guilty, therefore he attempts to evade
>the issue by swamp posting. The dumb bastard is too stupid to realize
>that most folks are smart enough to see what he's attempting to do. If
>he were just a tad smarter he'd realize that he's merely destroying
>what little credibility he has, by lying and evading.

Until the kook can produce the assertion by Carrico that the original bullet
wound was "ragged", as Bugliosi claims, he's just another garden variety liar
like Bugliosi.

>> >> 2.) The bullet shell found by Virginia Davis in her side yard (which
>> >> has a chain of custody that even most conspiracy kooks don't gripe
>> >> about).
>>
>> >> 3.) Commission Exhibit No. 603, which is one of the four bullets
>> >> removed from J.D. Tippit's body. According to Illinois firearms expert
>> >> Joseph D. Nicol, that particular bullet (CE603) positively came out of
>> >> Lee Harvey Oswald's Smith & Wesson revolver.
>>
>> >The FBI could NOT trace any of the bullets from Tippit's body to

>> >Oswald's revolver. =A0 But just like in many trials the prosecution

>> >attorneys and the defence attorney's find some "expert" that will

>> >testify in their favor. =A0Such is the case here, The warren Commission

>> >simply found an "expert" who would say what they wanted him to say.
>> >And furthermore as I recall, FBI agent Cunningham testified that even
>> >using a microscope he couldn't find any identical markings on any of

>> >the four bullets recovered from =A0Tippit's body. =A0IOW the four bullet=

>s
>> >could have been fired from four different guns as far as balistic

>> >testing was concerned. =A0 And no I'm not suggesting they were fired

>> >Sam Guinard worked for Ted Callaway..... =A0Are you so stupid that you

>> >>http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-edZe44WR-1g/Tvw4zuMtq3I/AAAAAAAABvU/gTbdK5V..=

>> >>http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh7/html/WC_Vol7_000..=

>> read more =BB- Hide quoted text -

>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>

[Walt]

On Jan 11, 9:24 am, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
> In article <5ee07ce3-2f60-48ff-b1ed-b36a51249...@24g2000yqi.googlegroups.com>,

It never ceases to amaze me that these screwball LNer's will keep
repeating the same lies over and over. Do they really believe that at
this late date, when there has been mountains of evidence uncovered
that prove that they are lying, that they can still fool intelligent
folks who read these NG's.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[bigdog]

On Jan 11, 11:15 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
> On Jan 11, 9:24 am, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>
> > Until the kook can produce the assertion by Carrico that the original bullet
> > wound was "ragged", as Bugliosi claims, he's just another garden variety liar
> > like Bugliosi.
>
> It never ceases to amaze me that these screwball LNer's will keep
> repeating the same lies over and over.  Do they really believe that at
> this late date, when there has been mountains of evidence uncovered
> that prove that they are lying, that they can still fool intelligent
> folks who read these NG's.
>

The funny part is that you consider yourself one of the intelligent
folks. Sorry, we're not letting you into the club. We have to maintain
our standards.

[Walt]

I've never considered re-joining your club. I resigned from your club
way back in 1964, and I've never regretted it. I realized that the
authorities were treating me like an addled brained moron, and they
were trying to tempt me into accepting that a dog turd was a candy
bar. You on the other hand have accepted their offers.....so enjoy.

[aeffects]

it's simply their *faith*, easily led, they can't help themselves,
they're caught in the grip of LHO-SBT fanaticism...

> ...
>
> read more »

[David Von Pein]

>>> "The kook doesn't *want* to name just one... he wants to "swamp post" you with a mountain." <<<

So, the kooks would have been happier if I had given just ONE answer
to Walt's stupid inquiry regarding Oswald's obvious guilt in the
Tippit murder. But since I provided FIFTEEN answers, it means that all
15 must be ignored and are invalid?

Hilarious.

The CT rules just got loonier.

[aeffects]

you're quoting you mother, moron.... even she sees light... keep
coming back, kookster!

[Bud]

The fact that there are so many indications of Oswald`s guilt means
that he must be innocent to the true conspiracy retard.

They take Oswald`s assertion that he was a patsy to be a fact, and
no matter what that is the only thing in this case that can be
believed (even though they don`t seem to understand what Oswald was
saying when he made that claim). No matter how many ludicrous,
incredible or retarded things they have to believe in order to keep
the faith that Oswald was a fall guy, that is what they will believe.
If everyone needs to be "in on it" then everybody was.

[bigdog]

On Jan 11, 1:26 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
> On Jan 11, 12:00 pm, bigdog <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 11, 11:15 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:> On Jan 11, 9:24 am, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Until the kook can produce the assertion by Carrico that the original bullet
> > > > wound was "ragged", as Bugliosi claims, he's just another garden variety liar
> > > > like Bugliosi.
>
> > > It never ceases to amaze me that these screwball LNer's will keep
> > > repeating the same lies over and over.  Do they really believe that at
> > > this late date, when there has been mountains of evidence uncovered
> > > that prove that they are lying, that they can still fool intelligent
> > > folks who read these NG's.
>
> > The funny part is that you consider yourself one of the intelligent
> > folks. Sorry, we're not letting you into the club. We have to maintain
> > our standards.
>
> I've never considered re-joining your club.  I resigned from your club
> way back in 1964, and I've never regretted it.

You resigned from the intelligent people's club. I believe that.

> I realized that the
> authorities were treating me like an addled brained moron,

Is that hard to understand?

> and they
> were trying to tempt me into accepting that a dog turd was a candy
> bar.

How did it taste?

You on the other hand have accepted their offers.....so enjoy.

The difference between you and the various entities that have
conducted investigations into this case is that what they tell me
makes sense and nothing you say does.

[Ben Holmes]

In article <6a01b5f8-aa2c-4a56...@n30g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
aeffects says...
>
>On Jan 11, 11:58=A0am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>> "The kook doesn't *want* to name just one... he wants to "swamp post"=

> you with a mountain." <<<
>>
>> So, the kooks would have been happier if I had given just ONE answer
>> to Walt's stupid inquiry regarding Oswald's obvious guilt in the
>> Tippit murder. But since I provided FIFTEEN answers, it means that all
>> 15 must be ignored and are invalid?

Actually, of course, we'd be happy if you could DEFEND AND SUPPORT just one of
your assertions.

But you can't... you keep running away.

>> Hilarious.
>>
>> The CT rules just got loonier.
>
>you're quoting you mother, moron.... even she sees light... keep
>coming back, kookster!

[Walt]

Yes, I understand that the truth doesn't make sense to you..... What I
don't uinderstand is WHY?....Is it because you are too stupid to think
for yourself....Is it because you lack the guts to face the
facts.....Is it because you've seen the government ridicule and
harrass CT's and lump them all together and label them "kooks", and
you don't want to be called a kook and you want to be popular and
accepted. I'd guess that you fit into all of the above.......

[Walt]

>  Officer W.E. Barnes  dusted the right door ledge of Tippit's car
> because he'd been told that the killer had leaned on the door ("smear
> prints" were found, but "none of value" )



Officer W.E. Barnes dusted the right door ledge of Tippit's car
because he'd been told that the killer had leaned on the door ("smear
prints" were found, but "none of value" )

The killer leaned on the side of Tippit's squad car and talked to
Tippit through the wing window. It's quite natural for a person
talking through a wing window to place his right hand on the right
front fender of the car. There are photos of Pete barnes dusting that
area of Tippits car looking for finger prints. He found many good
identifiable prints but told the Warren Commission he hadn't found any
"of value"



The prints he lifted from Tippit's squad car are very clear. Dale
myers printed the them on page 275 of With
Malice. At the time he lifted them he placed a hand written note
across the top of the photocopy that he made of the prints. That note
reads: ... " from rt front fender of squad car" ..... Anybody
looking at those prints and the note can clearly see that Barnes was
lying. Barnes told the W.C. that he found some smeared finger prints
on the right front fender near the head light, but there is no
evidence that he even examined that area of Tippits car. Barnes was
probably lying about the location also because it simply wouldn't make
sense to examine that area of the car. No witness said
anything about the killer being near the headlight. Virtually ALL of
the witnesses said the killer was leaning down at the passenger door
and then standing just forward of the windshield as he fired the
shots.

>
> Barnes is interviewed by David Belin regarding a particular photograph,
> Barnes Deposition Exhibit A:
>
> Q: ... Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that the
> vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that the
> way that you found the car when you got there?
> A: That is true.

> Q: Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or
> document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?
> A: That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all
> squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted
> persons
> Q: Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on
> this clipboard?
> A: Yes; we never read his clipboard.
> Q: That is the way you saw the clipboard there?
> A: That is the way it was.
> Q: It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard.
> Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any
> memorandum paper on the board?
> A: I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.
> Q: Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes Deposition
> Exhibit A?
> A: What?
> Q: Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be
> relevant?
> A: Not that I know. (7H273-74)
>
> Who took possession of the materials in the car,and who examined
> them ? What became of them?
>

> Read; The Rosetta Stone of the JFK AssassinationPublished in Flagpole
> Magazine, p. 8 (November 20, 2002).
> Author: Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia
> School of Law.http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/jfk_19rosetta.html
>

> The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing.  Thirty-nine-
> year-old Dallas police officer J. D. Tippit was shot to death near the
> intersection of Tenth and Patton Streets in the Oak Cliff section of
> Dallas shortly before 1:16 p.m. on November 22, 1963.  Tippit's death
> occurred about 45 minutes after JFK was shot in Dealey Plaza,
> approximately four miles away in downtown Dallas.  While cruising east in
> his marked police car on Patton, the uniformed Tippit came across a
> pedestrian walking in the same direction on the sidewalk.  Bringing his
> car to a stop, Tippit called the pedestrian to the car, whereupon the
> pedestrian approached and apparently spoke to Tippit through the (open
> right front vent window.)  After a brief conversation, Tippit exited his
> car and started to walk to the front of his car.  As he reached the left
> front wheel, the pedestrian pulled out a pistol and began shooting Tippit
> across the car hood.  Tippit, who by now had drawn his service revolver,
> fell into the street, and shortly thereafter the killer fled the scene.
> Half an hour later Oswald, while in possession of a .38 caliber pistol,
> was arrested at a movie theater approximately eight blocks away.
>
> ----------
> I had a car like that and it also had a vent window. I never talked to
> anyone through that vent that I can remember.
> ----- Raymond
>
> More?
>
> Oswald-Tippit Connections The Warren Report asserted there was “no
> evidence” that Oswald and Tippit “had ever seen each other before.”
> Actually, there was.  A waitress at a Dobbs House restaurant in Dallas
> told FBI investigators working for the Warren Commission that two days
> before the JFK assassination Oswald, a customer in the restaurant, was
> “nasty and used curse words” in connection with his food order, that
> Tippit was also in the restaurant “as was his habit at about that time
> each morning,” and that Tippit “shot a glance at Oswald.” Another
> Dobbs House waitress also told the FBI of the incident when Oswald was
> rude (although she thought it occurred one day before the assassination);
> she further recalled that Oswald came into the restaurant “numerous
> times.” The Dobbs House manager told the FBI that Tippit was a regular
> “coffee customer.” (Interestingly, the restaurant was outside
> Tippit’s patrol district.)  Despite this evidence that Oswald and Tippit
> frequented the same restaurant, that on at least one occasion--only a day
> or two before the Kennedy assassination--they were both present there at
> the same time, and that on that occasion Tippit glanced toward Oswald,
> neither the FBI nor the Warren Commission further investigated the matter.
>
> The Mysterious Police Car The housekeeper at the rooming house (about
> a mile from the Tippit murder site) where Oswald was living told the
> Warren Commission that around 1 p.m. on November 22, while Oswald was
> alone in his room, a marked police car stopped in front of the
> premises, sounded its horn twice, and then slowly drove away.
> Although it treated her as a credible and responsible witness in every
> other respect, the Warren Commission curiously rejected this part of
> the housekeeper's testimony.  In his book Lee: A Portrait of Lee
> Harvey Oswald (1967), Robert Oswald, Lee Harvey Oswald’s brother,
> cogently asks: “How could the Commission decide that [the housekeeper]
> was right when she supplied [other] information, but wrong when she
> made her firm statement about the police car stopping and honking?”
> That housekeeper, Mrs. Earlene Roberts, ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Walt]

On Jan 10, 8:52 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:

>   So you are conceding that Tippit may have pulled out his revolver
> upon seeing Oswald`s weapon or being shot as opposed to approaching
> Oswald with his weapon out. You brought this up but lost interest in
> it in a hurry. This why it`s a waste of time to engage most CTers in
> the issues they raise, they just flit off onto some other subject.
>

> >  Officer W.E. Barnes  dusted the right door ledge of Tippit's car
> > because he'd been told that the killer had leaned on the door ("smear
> > prints" were found, but "none of value" )
>

Now that we've seen those "smear prints" from Tippits car, and can see
with our own eyes that they are NOT smeared at all.....There are many
good clear prints and they are NOT Lee Oswald's prints.

> > Barnes is interviewed by David Belin regarding a particular photograph,
> > Barnes Deposition Exhibit A:
>
> > Q: ... Now I notice on the right-front door window it appears that the
> > vent window was open and that the main window is closed. Is that the
> > way that you found the car when you got there?
> > A: That is true.
>

>   When Barnes got there it was closed, that doesn`t mean it was closed
> when Tippit spoke to Oswald. Callaway said he put Tippit revolver in
> the front seat of the patrol car, he may have closed the window to
> limit access to it.
>
>
>
>
>

> > Q: Inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or
> > document. Do you remember what that is at all, or not?
> > A: That is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all
> > squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted
> > persons
> > Q: Were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on
> > this clipboard?
> > A: Yes; we never read his clipboard.
> > Q: That is the way you saw the clipboard there?
> > A: That is the way it was.
> > Q: It appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard.
> > Did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any
> > memorandum paper on the board?
> > A: I couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard.
> > Q: Anything else about this particular picture, Barnes Deposition
> > Exhibit A?
> > A: What?
> > Q: Anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be
> > relevant?
> > A: Not that I know. (7H273-74)
>
> > Who took possession of the materials in the car,and who examined
> > them ? What became of them?
>

>   What "materials"? You did read that the clipboard was attached to
> the patrol car, right? The DPD "took possession" of the car, it was
> theirs.
>

> > Read; The Rosetta Stone of the JFK AssassinationPublished in Flagpole
> > Magazine, p. 8 (November 20, 2002).
> > Author: Donald E. Wilkes, Jr., Professor of Law, University of Georgia
> > School of Law.http://www.law.uga.edu/dwilkes_more/jfk_19rosetta.html
>
> > The evidence that Oswald murdered Tippit is unconvincing.
>

>   This guy is an idiot.
>
>
>
>
>

> > Thirty-nine-
> > year-old Dallas police officer J. D. Tippit was shot to death near the
> > intersection of Tenth and Patton Streets in the Oak Cliff section of
> > Dallas shortly before 1:16 p.m. on November 22, 1963.  Tippit's death
> > occurred about 45 minutes after JFK was shot in Dealey Plaza,
> > approximately four miles away in downtown Dallas.  While cruising east in
> > his marked police car on Patton, the uniformed Tippit came across a
> > pedestrian walking in the same direction on the sidewalk.  Bringing his
> > car to a stop, Tippit called the pedestrian to the car, whereupon the
> > pedestrian approached and apparently spoke to Tippit through the (open
> > right front vent window.)  After a brief conversation, Tippit exited his
> > car and started to walk to the front of his car.  As he reached the left
> > front wheel, the pedestrian pulled out a pistol and began shooting Tippit
> > across the car hood.  Tippit, who by now had drawn his service revolver,
> > fell into the street, and shortly thereafter the killer fled the scene.
> > Half an hour later Oswald, while in possession of a .38 caliber pistol,
> > was arrested at a movie theater approximately eight blocks away.
>
> > ----------
> > I had a car like that and it also had a vent window. I never talked to
> > anyone through that vent that I can remember.
> > ----- Raymond
>

>   One person witnesses the exchange between Tippit and Oswald. Markham
> said they talked through the open window.

>
>
>
> > More?
>
> > Oswald-Tippit Connections The Warren Report asserted there was “no
> > evidence” that Oswald and Tippit “had ever seen each other before.”
> > Actually, there was.  A waitress at a Dobbs House restaurant in Dallas
> > told FBI investigators working for the Warren Commission that two days
> > before the JFK assassination Oswald, a customer in the restaurant, was
> > “nasty and used curse words” in connection with his food order, that
> > Tippit was also in the restaurant “as was his habit at about that time
> > each morning,” and that Tippit “shot a glance at Oswald.” Another
> > Dobbs House waitress also told the FBI of the incident when Oswald was
> > rude (although she thought it occurred one day before the assassination);
> > she further recalled that Oswald came into the restaurant “numerous
> > times.” The Dobbs House manager told the FBI that Tippit was a regular
> > “coffee customer.” (Interestingly, the restaurant was outside
> > Tippit’s patrol district.)  Despite this
>

> ...
>

[Bud]

Experts use microscopes, not their own eyes, retard. What value is
the opinion of a retard with no training looking at photos of the
prints?

>There are many
> good clear prints and they are NOT Lee Oswald's prints.

It`s a public car, retard.

Why is it not incriminating that his prints were all over the SN?

> ...
>
> read more »

[Bud]

On Jan 11, 10:24 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:

Experts don`t use their own eyes, they use a microscope and have
training. The opinion of a retard looking at poor photos of the prints
found are meaningless, even if the retard doesn`t understand this himself.

>There are many
> good clear prints and they are NOT Lee Oswald's prints.

It`s a public car, retard. A lot of people could have touched it.

When Oswald`s prints are found somewhere, like all over the SN the
retards claim this is meaningless. When they aren`t found, the retards say
this is meaningful.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Walt]

Some stupid moron wrote:..."Experts don`t use their own eyes, they use

a microscope and have training. The opinion of a retard looking at
poor photos of the prints found are meaningless, even if the retard
doesn`t understand this himself."

"Experts don`t use their own eyes,"? .... really?? Are you
serious?... Do they borrow someone elses eyes to look through the
microscope?? they use a microscope and have training... WHOOOP-
DE-DO!.... Looking through a microscope is so highly technical that
The Dud needs to be trained..... The opinion of a retard looking at

poor photos of the prints
found are meaningless, even if the retard doesn`t understand this
himself.

Duh, Dud..... In this day and age It's a very sinple matter to
photocopy and enlarge Oswald's prints, and the prints that Pete Barnes
lifted from Tippit's squad car and make them the same size for easy
comparison by over laying them on a light box. Even a moron like you
can do it, and see with your own eyes that the prints were NOT Lee
Oswald's.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Bud]

Like I said, he doesn`t understand this himself.

> Duh, Dud.....  In this day and age It's a very sinple matter to
> photocopy and enlarge Oswald's prints, and the prints that Pete Barnes
> lifted from Tippit's squad car and make them the same size for easy
> comparison by over laying them on a light box.  Even a moron like you
> can do it, and see with your own eyes that the prints were NOT Lee
> Oswald's.

Crackpot detective Walt Cakebread on the case! This is the guy that
built a scale model of Dealey Plaza with matchbox cars and a shoebox
Book Despositry. Somebody tell me again that this isn`t just a retard
hobby.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Walt]

Hey dud, all I see here is ad hominem..... A sure sign that you've
been put on the ropes and have nothing left. C'mon Dud get yer ass
off the ropes, I'm not done with you.

[Bud]

I put ideas out there that you are just too stupid to understand.
You`re a dope, and my subtle points go right over your head. The idea
put bluntly is that the opinion of the expert with the training
looking at the original prints trumps the opinion of the conspiracy
retard with no training looking a poor photos of the prints. Every
time.

And the idea was never that the prints were Oswald`s, so you can
leave that strawman to the crows.

[r2bz...@sbcglobal.net]

***At what point did Benevides say Tippet pulled out his revolver? Nothing
in the Benevides statement says Tippet drew his gun upon exiting his
patrol car. Benevides said he saw Tippet laying on his revolver. Tippet
probably did not pull out his gun until he saw Oswald pulling his up to
shoot him. Thus Posner was not wrong in this particular comment.

***Ron Judge