Garrison Grand Jury Files Released
David Stager
June 5, 1998
Oswald Widow: Husband Acted Alone
Filed at 4:25 p.m. EDT
By The Associated Press
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Five years after John F. Kennedy's
assassination, Lee Harvey Oswald's widow faced a district attorney's
insistence that Oswald ``might have been set up.'' But she clung to a
belief that her husband was the president's killer and acted alone.
Documents made public Friday show the intensity of New Orleans
District Attorney Jim Garrison's pursuit of his conspiracy theory. He
even told Marina Oswald Porter that when her husband, during 12
hours of questioning, consistently asserted his innocence, ``he was
telling the truth.''
But Mrs. Porter wouldn't buy in to the conspiracy theory.
Near the end of a long day of interrogation before the grand jury, she
was asked point-blank, ``Marina, do you believe your husband killed
the president?''
``As much facts as I know, I do,'' the Russian-born woman said in
broken English.
Later, an unidentified member of the grand jury broke in to ask, ``Do
you think he was capable of planning, plotting this whole thing by
himself?''
``I think so,'' she replied. ``I don't think he would be involved in any
conspiracy with anybody, in my opinion.''
The secret grand jury records, made public Friday, offer little to
support Garrison's belief that people in his own city were part of a
conspiracy to kill Kennedy.
The Garrison investigation, from 1967 through 1969, resulted in the
indictment, 34-day trial and hasty acquittal of New Orleans
businessman Clay Shaw.
Sal Panzeca, Shaw's defense lawyer, told New Orleans television
station WDSU Thursday night that the Shaw investigation amounted to
``not much more than a witch hunt.''
Harry Connick, the current New Orleans district attorney, sought to
keep the record of Garrison's proceedings secret, but a court ruled that
Connick had to surrender the records to the Assassination Records
Review Board and the Supreme Court refused last month to intervene.
Congress created the board after the Garrison investigation was
portrayed by the Oliver Stone movie ``JFK.'' The board's purpose is to
amass all records concerning Kennedy's killing and subsequent
investigations.
``Copies of these transcripts have been hidden for years and were
available to only a select few people,'' said board chairman John R.
Tunheim. ``Now all of the American people will be free to examine a
more complete record of the Garrison prosecution of Clay Shaw.''
Mrs. Porter -- she remarried after Oswald was killed in the Dallas jail
three days after the shooting of Kennedy in Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963 --
was one of 40 witnesses before the grand jury.
Pursuing his own conspiracy theory, Garrison told Mrs. Porter that no
fingerprints had been found on Oswald's guns and that a nitrate test
``exonerated'' Oswald.
And an assistant district attorney reminded her that friends of Oswald
doubted he could kill the president. To which she replied: ``They don't
know much about Lee. He could have violent temper, he could be
mean. He kept everything kind of secret.''
Over the years, Mrs. Oswald changed her mind about Oswald's guilt.
Embraced by other conspiracy theorists, she came to accept their
theories.
She even joined in requesting the exhumation of Oswald's body under
the belief that the person in the grave was actually a Soviet KGB agent
impersonating the real Oswald. The exhumation confirmed that the
body was in fact Oswald's.
A few years ago, nonetheless, she told author Gerald Posner, ``I think
Lee was completely innocent.''
CGNeal
From: dst...@cheerful.com (David Stager)
Organization: Quark's Bar, Grill, Gaming House and Holosuite Arcade
If a newspaper cuts the story off here, it's like the case is closed.
But this case is still being discussed 34 years later.
I just wish one of you "insiders" would have the guts
to let us in on the rest of the story.
>
>Over the years, Mrs. Oswald changed her mind about Oswald's guilt.
>Embraced by other conspiracy theorists, she came to accept their
>theories.
>
>She even joined in requesting the exhumation of Oswald's body under
>the belief that the person in the grave was actually a Soviet KGB agent
>impersonating the real Oswald. The exhumation confirmed that the
>body was in fact Oswald's.
>
>A few years ago, nonetheless, she told author Gerald Posner, ``I think
>Lee was completely innocent.''
Or perhaps Lee was a coniving miracle worker,
single-handedly reducing the Secret Service
and the Dallas Police to a bunch of spineless good-for-nothings.
I don't think so.
Charles G Neal
Derek J. Larsson
David Stager wrote:
> The Garrison investigation, from 1967 through 1969, resulted in the
> indictment, 34-day trial and hasty acquittal of New Orleans
> businessman Clay Shaw.
Isn't it strange that Clay Shaw is still described as simply a
'businessman'
when it has been disclosed for years that he worked for the CIA (HSCA
testimony).
-Derek
======================================================
Derek J. Larsson EMail: derek_...@3com.com
======================================================
David Stager
On Thu, 11 Jun 1998 15:44:50 -0400, "Derek J. Larsson" <derek_...@3com.com>
wrote:
>> The Garrison investigation, from 1967 through 1969, resulted in the
>> indictment, 34-day trial and hasty acquittal of New Orleans
>> businessman Clay Shaw.
>
> Isn't it strange that Clay Shaw is still described as simply a
>'businessman'
> when it has been disclosed for years that he worked for the CIA (HSCA
> testimony).
That's a buff myth. The actual CIA document concerning this was discovered by
me and is posted on John McAdams' site. The HSCA testimony of Dick Helms
contradicts your claim too, but nice try trying to slip by another buff
falsehood.
rickg...@my-dejanews.com
In article <358033B2...@3com.com>,
>
> > The Garrison investigation, from 1967 through 1969, resulted in the
> > indictment, 34-day trial and hasty acquittal of New Orleans
> > businessman Clay Shaw.
>
> Isn't it strange that Clay Shaw is still described as simply a
> 'businessman'
> when it has been disclosed for years that he worked for the CIA (HSCA
> testimony).
>
>
Derek:
Could you provide a citation for this from the HSCA? If you're talking about
him being debriefed after international trips, forget it. So were countless
others.
Rick Gibson
> ======================================================
> Derek J. Larsson EMail: derek_...@3com.com
> ======================================================
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
David Stager
On Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:12:39 GMT, rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>Could you provide a citation for this from the HSCA? If you're talking about
>him being debriefed after international trips, forget it. So were countless
>others.
Derek should provide his cite to the HCSA testimony which he claimed "proves"
Shaw worked for the CIA. There isn't any such testimony. As my message
pointed out -- it's a buff myth.
Vern Pascal
David;
You said that it is a "buff myth" that Clay Shaw worked for the
Agency.------------You may not accept the following but you might want
to go to the sources directly, Victor Marchetti, former executive
assistant to the CIA deputy director, and Richard Helms.
According to Marchetti, during high-level meetings in 1969, CIA
director Helms revealed that Ferrie and SHAW HAD WORKED FOR THE
AGENCY.----------(Garrison, OTTOTA, p.274).-------------
Incidentally, do you believe that Permindex, of which Shaw was a board
member, was a CIA front?--------------------------------------Vern
Martin Shackelford
David:
If Shaw wasn't working for the CIA, perhaps you can enlighten us
about what he was doing in connection with the ZR/CLIFF and QK/ENCHANT
projects to which CIA documents have linked him. What were those
projects, by the way? The CIA has chosen to withhold that particular
information to date.
Martin
David Stager
What Shaw told CIA and what CIA did with that information are two different
issues. Shaw was questioned about business trends in Europe concerning arms
sales. He never worked for them, but apparently did speak with him. One of
the cryptonyms dates from the 1940's. How did CIA know JFK would be president
so far ahead of time? If the events are related this must be true. This is
why these appeals to ignorance are so silly. Just step back from your paranoia
and examine the situation using logic.
dlarsson
rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
<6lrni7$sl8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <358033B2...@3com.com>,
> "Derek J. Larsson" <derek_...@3com.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > David Stager wrote:
> >
> > > The Garrison investigation, from 1967 through 1969, resulted in the
> > > indictment, 34-day trial and hasty acquittal of New Orleans
> > > businessman Clay Shaw.
> >
> > Isn't it strange that Clay Shaw is still described as simply a
> > 'businessman'
> > when it has been disclosed for years that he worked for the CIA (HSCA
> > testimony).
> >
> > -Derek
> >
> Derek:
>
> Could you provide a citation for this from the HSCA? If you're talking
about
> him being debriefed after international trips, forget it. So were
countless
> others.
>
> Rick Gibson
It was disclosed specifically by Victor Machetti of the CIA and
by Richard Helms (under pressure by HSCA) of the CIA that Clay
Shaw was not "just a plain old businessman" .. but a CIA contract
agent. Italian news publications also established that he was on
the board of directors for Centro Mondiale Commerciale, a CIA front
in Rome trying to bring fascism back to Italy and served as a director
for Permindex which financed assassination attempts on
French President De Gaulle. He was also linked to
Guy Bannister's CIA cuban actvities through David Ferrie, Lee Oswald,
Dean Andrews, Jack Martin, Perry Russo, and others.
One other note: Kennedy was in route to the Dallas Trade Mart
to give a speech in 1963. Clay Shaw was director of the Trade Mart.
... Clearly, he was no "businessman" .....
dlarsson
> That's a buff myth. The actual CIA document concerning this was
discovered by
> me and is posted on John McAdams' site. The HSCA testimony of Dick Helms
> contradicts your claim too, but nice try trying to slip by another buff
> falsehood.
Bullshit ....
It was disclosed specifically by Victor Machetti of the CIA and
by Richard Helms (under pressure by HSCA) of the CIA that Clay
Shaw was not "just a plain old businessman" .. but a CIA contract
agent. Italian news publications also established that he was on
the board of directors for Centro Mondiale Commerciale, a CIA front
in Rome trying to bring fascism back to Italy and served as a director
for Permindex which financed assassination attempts on
French President De Gaulle. He was also linked to
Guy Bannister's CIA cuban actvities through David Ferrie, Lee Oswald,
Dean Andrews, Jack Martin, Perry Russo, and others.
One other note: Kennedy was in route to the Dallas Trade Mart
to give a speech in 1963. Clay Shaw was director of the Trade Mart.
... Clearly, he was no "businessman" .....
- Derek
Tony Pitman
dlarsson wrote:
> rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article
> <6lrni7$sl8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> > In article <358033B2...@3com.com>,
> > "Derek J. Larsson" <derek_...@3com.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > David Stager wrote:
> > >
> > > > The Garrison investigation, from 1967 through 1969, resulted in
> the
> > > > indictment, 34-day trial and hasty acquittal of New Orleans
> > > > businessman Clay Shaw.
> > >
> > > Isn't it strange that Clay Shaw is still described as simply a
>
> > > 'businessman'
> > > when it has been disclosed for years that he worked for the CIA
> (HSCA
> > > testimony).
> > >
> > > -Derek
> > >
> > Derek:
> >
> > Could you provide a citation for this from the HSCA? If you're
> talking
> about
> > him being debriefed after international trips, forget it. So were
> countless
> > others.
> >
> > Rick Gibson
>
> It was disclosed specifically by Victor Machetti of the CIA and
> by Richard Helms (under pressure by HSCA) of the CIA that Clay
> Shaw was not "just a plain old businessman" .. but a CIA contract
> agent. Italian news publications also established that he was on
> the board of directors for Centro Mondiale Commerciale, a CIA front
> in Rome trying to bring fascism back to Italy and served as a
> director
> for Permindex which financed assassination attempts on
> French President De Gaulle. He was also linked to
> Guy Bannister's CIA cuban actvities through David Ferrie, Lee
> Oswald,
> Dean Andrews, Jack Martin, Perry Russo, and others.
>
> One other note: Kennedy was in route to the Dallas Trade Mart
> to give a speech in 1963. Clay Shaw was director of the Trade Mart.
>
> ... Clearly, he was no "businessman" .....
Question. Are you saying that the Dallas Trade Mart and the N.O. Trade
Mart are one and the same outfit or was he on both boards of directors?
Tony
rickg...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6lum87$ram$1...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
Please. Quoting Garrison? I thought somebody was going around touting HSCA
testimony or some other direct source. I guess not. I suppose that's why
you have to quote Garrison. Not exactly the most credible source, eh?
Rick Gibson
rickg...@my-dejanews.com
In article <01bd980c$963495a0$0bf2accf@derek>,
Well, okay, but -- again -- what source are you citing for this information?
And what's so sinister about the Trade Mart being selected for the situs of
the speech. Wasn't it a pretty prominent venue in Dallas?
rickg...@my-dejanews.com
In article <01bd980c$f076f800$0bf2accf@derek>,
"dlarsson" <dlar...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>
> > That's a buff myth. The actual CIA document concerning this was
> discovered by
> > me and is posted on John McAdams' site. The HSCA testimony of Dick Helms
> > contradicts your claim too, but nice try trying to slip by another buff
> > falsehood.
>
> Bullshit ....
> by Richard Helms (under pressure by HSCA) of the CIA that Clay
> Shaw was not "just a plain old businessman" .. but a CIA contract
> agent. Italian news publications also established that he was on
> the board of directors for Centro Mondiale Commerciale, a CIA front
> in Rome trying to bring fascism back to Italy and served as a director
> for Permindex which financed assassination attempts on
> French President De Gaulle. He was also linked to
> Guy Bannister's CIA cuban actvities through David Ferrie, Lee Oswald,
> Dean Andrews, Jack Martin, Perry Russo, and others.
>
> One other note: Kennedy was in route to the Dallas Trade Mart
> to give a speech in 1963. Clay Shaw was director of the Trade Mart.
>
> ... Clearly, he was no "businessman" .....
>
>
Derek:
Why do you refuse to provide any cites to support this mantra of yours? What
is the evidence you rely on?
Dave Dix
dlarsson wrote:
> > That's a buff myth. The actual CIA document concerning this was
> discovered by
> > me and is posted on John McAdams' site. The HSCA testimony of Dick Helms
> > contradicts your claim too, but nice try trying to slip by another buff
> > falsehood.
>
> Bullshit ....
> It was disclosed specifically by Victor Machetti of the CIA and
> by Richard Helms (under pressure by HSCA) of the CIA that Clay
> Shaw was not "just a plain old businessman" .. but a CIA contract
> agent. Italian news publications also established that he was on
> the board of directors for Centro Mondiale Commerciale, a CIA front
> in Rome trying to bring fascism back to Italy and served as a director
> for Permindex which financed assassination attempts on
> French President De Gaulle. He was also linked to
> Guy Bannister's CIA cuban actvities through David Ferrie, Lee Oswald,
> Dean Andrews, Jack Martin, Perry Russo, and others.
>
> One other note: Kennedy was in route to the Dallas Trade Mart
> to give a speech in 1963. Clay Shaw was director of the Trade Mart.
>
> ... Clearly, he was no "businessman" .....
>
> - Derek
He was director of the New Orleans Trade Mark, Derek, not the Dallas Trade
Mart. "Trade Mart" is sort of generic term. They are linked together in any
way except by the generic term.
The NO Trade Mart may have been an a site for inteligence activity, though.
After Shaw, a Canadian named Bloomfield took the post. He had served in
military intelligence and was supposedly linked to intelligence orgs after the
war. In Flammonde's book, he was identified by a man who said he saw
Bloomfield with David Ferry and overheard their conversation relating to the
assassination just days afterward. It was a converstaion which indicated to the
witness that the two men were involved in the killing. It took place in a
Canadian airport. It has been twenty years since I read the book. CAn any out
there provide details?
Dix
Vern Pascal
Rick;
I disagree with you on whether Garrison was a credible source, but that
is beside the point. The source is Victor Marchetti, a high level CIA
employee, in both newspaper interviews and a True magazine article from
1975, stated that Richard Helms had admitted Shaw's involvement with the
CIA . Before disparaging Garrison for quoting from this source, go to
the source directly, as I suggested originally. Then, if you wish to
call Mr. Marchetti a liar, that's up to
you.--------------------------------------------Vern
jack white
Are you sure of this? I was told once that TRADE MARTS were all part of
an international network. I don*t know.
jw
Dave Dix
jack white wrote:
yep. A quick run at the net tells me they are alike in their intent -- to help
economic development in their respective cities - but are competitors, not
associates. There are probably exceptions, but we can't assume the same name means
the same people involved. They make excellent intelligence gathering sites and
covers, obviuosly. And they are excellent covers for money laundering and project
coordination for criminals as well as legitimate business men. A look at the tenant
list during the Clay Shaw tenure might show us who was working out of the NOTM.
Pearl Gladstone
rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <6lum87$ram$1...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> lazu...@webtv.net (Vern Pascal) wrote:
> >
> > David;
> > You said that it is a "buff myth" that Clay Shaw worked for the
> > Agency.------------You may not accept the following but you might want
> > to go to the sources directly, Victor Marchetti, former executive
> > assistant to the CIA deputy director, and Richard Helms.
> > According to Marchetti, during high-level meetings in 1969, CIA
> > director Helms revealed that Ferrie and SHAW HAD WORKED FOR THE
> > AGENCY.----------(Garrison, OTTOTA, p.274).-------------
> > Incidentally, do you believe that Permindex, of which Shaw was a board
> > member, was a CIA front?--------------------------------------Vern
> >
> Vern,
>
> Please. Quoting Garrison? I thought somebody was going around touting HSCA
> testimony or some other direct source. I guess not. I suppose that's why
> you have to quote Garrison. Not exactly the most credible source, eh?
>
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Garrison is a credible source. You are not, nor are your motives
anything but very suspect.
Tony Pitman
rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <3585AE...@erols.com>,
> Because I disagree with you, Pearl?
>
> Rick Gibson
Marchetti annd Helms are the sources. Wake up.
Tony
Amethyst
.Tony Pitman wrote:
.>
.> rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
.>
.> > In article <3585AE...@erols.com>,
.> > tr...@erols.com wrote:
.> > >
.> > > rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
.> > > >
.> > > > In article <6lum87$ram$1...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
.> > > > lazu...@webtv.net (Vern Pascal) wrote:
.> > > > >
.> > > > > David;
.> > > > > You said that it is a "buff myth" that Clay Shaw worked for
the
.> > > > > Agency.------------You may not accept the following but you
.> > might want
.> > > > > to go to the sources directly, Victor Marchetti, former
.> > executive
.> > > > > assistant to the CIA deputy director, and Richard Helms.
.> > > > > According to Marchetti, during high-level meetings in 1969,
CIA
.> >
.> > > > > director Helms revealed that Ferrie and SHAW HAD WORKED FOR
THE
.> > > > > AGENCY.----------(Garrison, OTTOTA, p.274).-------------
.> > > > > Incidentally, do you believe that Permindex, of which Shaw
was a
.> > board
.> > > > > member, was a CIA
.> > front?--------------------------------------Vern
.> > > > >
.> > > > Vern,
.> > > >
.> > > > Please. Quoting Garrison? I thought somebody was going around
.> > touting HSCA
.> > > > testimony or some other direct source. I guess not. I suppose
.> > that's why
.> > > > you have to quote Garrison. Not exactly the most credible
source,
.> > eh?
.> > > >
.> > > > Rick Gibson
.> > > >
.> > > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion
.> > ==-----
.> > > > http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based
.> > newsreading
.> > >
.> > > Garrison is a credible source. You are not, nor are your motives
.> > > anything but very suspect.
.> > >
.> > Because I disagree with you, Pearl?
.> >
.> > Rick Gibson
.>
.> Marchetti annd Helms are the sources. Wake up.
>
> Tony
Marchetti happened to be a secretary in the Agency. I believe it was to
Helm's deputy.
He claims he overheard comments.
Many of his claims in The Cult of Intelligence show that he seldom
understood what was going on around him.
It's evident that CIA had legitimate PR concerns when a renegade DA
seemed to suggest that giving routine info on foreign travel experiences
to one's national intelligence service was suspicious behavior.
Nor did CIA have viable options to clear up the matter.
In case you don't know it, CIA works primarily abroad. It's charter
prohibits
operations in, say, New Orleans.
So, the idea of Shaw being involved in [fill in the blank, this beggers
my imagination] is little short of laughable.
He was a businessman!
Ferrie is the least suspicious guy: an airline pilot, an archivist for
Gill Wray, a gas station owner.
In case you didn't know it, CIA was not ahead of its time in being open
to "alternate lifestyles" among its employees.
The idea of this hairless wonder drawing an Agency check is hilarious!
jf
Lisa Pease
Vern Pascal (lazu...@webtv.net) wrote:
: David;
: You said that it is a "buff myth" that Clay Shaw worked for the
: Agency.------------You may not accept the following but you might want
: to go to the sources directly, Victor Marchetti, former executive
: assistant to the CIA deputy director, and Richard Helms.
: According to Marchetti, during high-level meetings in 1969, CIA
: director Helms revealed that Ferrie and SHAW HAD WORKED FOR THE
: AGENCY.----------(Garrison, OTTOTA, p.274).-------------
: Incidentally, do you believe that Permindex, of which Shaw was a board
: member, was a CIA front?--------------------------------------Vern
It goes much further than that. Shaw had covert security for a project
called QKENCHANT, a project the CIA refuses to disclose, and one that E.
Howard Hunt also had clearance for, albeit several years later.
And read his reports to the CIA from his traveling days. The guy was
begging to be given more assignments.
--
Lisa Pease
"It is as if the final price for winning the Cold War is our confinement
to a permanent childhood where reassuring fantasies and endless
diversions protect us from the hard truth of our own recent history."
--Robert Parry, THE CONSORTIUM, 2/17/97
Check out my Real History Archives @ http://www.webcom.com/lpease
Visit the site of Probe Magazine at http://www.webcom.com/ctka
Lisa Pease
rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: Please. Quoting Garrison? I thought somebody was going around touting HSCA
: testimony or some other direct source. I guess not. I suppose that's why
: you have to quote Garrison. Not exactly the most credible source, eh?
Any relation to Richard Gibson, longtime spook for the CIA? Just curious.
As for Shaw being CIA - see Shaw's CIA records, now declassified by the ARRB.
: Rick Gibson
Lisa Pease
Blackburst (black...@aol.com) wrote:
: Martin Shackelford wrote:
: > If Shaw wasn't working for the CIA, perhaps you can enlighten us
: >about what he was doing in connection with the ZR/CLIFF and QK/ENCHANT
: >projects to which CIA documents have linked him.
: The CIA document in question links a man named Sullivan to QKENCHANT. Regarding
: Shaw, all it says is "Shaw has #402897-A", whatever that is.
John Newman, and intelligence analyst for the government for many years,
who is quite familiar with such records, confirmed that was Shaw's covert
security number, i.e. he was working for the CIA.
You can believe whatever fantasy you allow yourself. I'll stick with Newman.
Lisa Pease
rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: >
: Because I disagree with you, Pearl?
You are not credible because you disagree with the evidence.
: Rick Gibson
: -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
: http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Blackburst
Lisa Pease wrote:
>John Newman, and intelligence analyst for the government for many years,
>who is quite familiar with such records, confirmed that was Shaw's covert
>security number, i.e. he was working for the CIA.
>You can believe whatever fantasy you allow yourself. I'll stick with Newman.
The exact quote from the document is:
"A memorandum marked only for file, 16 March 1967, signed by Marguerite D.
Stevens, says that J. Monroe Sullivan, #280207, was granted a covert security
approval on 10 December 1962 so that he could be used in Project QKENCHANT.
SHAW has #402897-A."
Let the reader decide whether or not this paragraph establishes Shaw as
connected with CIA or QKENCHANT.
FYI, I believe J. Monroe Sullivan had something to do with Shaw's trip to the
west coast.
oo
Dave
Lisa Pease
Blackburst (black...@aol.com) wrote:
: Lisa Pease wrote:
: >John Newman, and intelligence analyst for the government for many years,
: >who is quite familiar with such records, confirmed that was Shaw's covert
: >security number, i.e. he was working for the CIA.
: >You can believe whatever fantasy you allow yourself. I'll stick with Newman.
: The exact quote from the document is:
: "A memorandum marked only for file, 16 March 1967, signed by Marguerite D.
: Stevens, says that J. Monroe Sullivan, #280207, was granted a covert security
: approval on 10 December 1962 so that he could be used in Project QKENCHANT.
: SHAW has #402897-A."
: Let the reader decide whether or not this paragraph establishes Shaw as
: connected with CIA or QKENCHANT.
The reader is not likely to be an intelligence analyst, as is John
Newman. Leave it to the CIA defender to play semantics and hope people
are too shy to tell the emperor he is indeed naked.
And in addition, there are many of Shaw's reports to the CIA that have
not been released. OF the ones that have, he expresses his eagerness to
serve the agency more, and is briefed BEFORE he travels, not after,
indicating he was serving a mission.
Did he take money from them? Who cares? Volunteers can do as much damage
if not more. And people get paid in many ways. Shaw's whole business
enterprise in New Orleans thrived on trade with Latin America at a time
when the CIA was propping up ever fascist dictator in the hemisphere. It
was good business for Shaw, and he was very helpful to the agency, or so
they said in writing.
Pearl Gladstone
Amethyst wrote:
>
> In case you don't know it, CIA works primarily abroad. It's charter
> prohibits
> operations in, say, New Orleans.
>
This takes the cake.
You don't expect anybody to take you with even a grain of salt??????
Pearl Gladstone
rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> In article <3585AE...@erols.com>,
> tr...@erols.com wrote:
> >
> > rickg...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <6lum87$ram$1...@newsd-163.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> > > >
> > > > David;
> > > > You said that it is a "buff myth" that Clay Shaw worked for the
> > > > Agency.------------You may not accept the following but you might want
> > > > to go to the sources directly, Victor Marchetti, former executive
> > > > assistant to the CIA deputy director, and Richard Helms.
> > > > According to Marchetti, during high-level meetings in 1969, CIA
> > > > director Helms revealed that Ferrie and SHAW HAD WORKED FOR THE
> > > > AGENCY.----------(Garrison, OTTOTA, p.274).-------------
> > > > Incidentally, do you believe that Permindex, of which Shaw was a board
> > > > member, was a CIA front?--------------------------------------Vern
> > > >
> > >
> > > Please. Quoting Garrison? I thought somebody was going around touting HSCA
> > > testimony or some other direct source. I guess not. I suppose that's why
> > > you have to quote Garrison. Not exactly the most credible source, eh?
> > >
> > >
> > > -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> > > http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
> >
> >
> Because I disagree with you, Pearl?
>
>
> -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Hardly, because you support conclusions that do not rely on the record.
Pearl Gladstone
Lisa, Shaw was CIA. The jury has come back on that one long ago. You
could quote scripture, and it wouldn't matter to the disrupters like
Gibson and McNally(aka Amethyst or Fletcher) who currently inhabit these
spaces.
I suspect that if someone cut off one of their toes, they would go about
squealing that it was a finger. That's what happens when you are trained
to embrace the heart of darkness.
When thought and reactions are cut off from the processes of rational
observance and deduction, you get these abberent creatures whose whole
existence is to roll out the lies.
Blackburst
In an earlier post, I questioned whether a particular CIA document establishes
a link between Shaw and the QKENCHANT project, whatever that is.
Lisa Pease responded by citing general evidence of Shaw's contacts with the
CIA, which I did not and do not question.
I stand by my assertion that the passage in question, which I quoted verbatim,
does not necessarily, as written, establish a connection between Shaw and
QKENCHANT.
>A memorandum marked only for file, 16 March 1967, signed by Marguerite D.
>: Stevens, says that J. Monroe Sullivan, #280207, was granted a covert
>security
>: approval on 10 December 1962 so that he could be used in Project QKENCHANT.
>
>: SHAW has #402897-A."
Newman may feel that it does, based on his reading. I don't, and the readers
can decide for themselves.
> Leave it to the CIA defender to play semantics and hope people
>are too shy to tell the emperor he is indeed naked.
I resent being called a CIA defender. I have no interest in defending CIA. I am
not playing semantics. Either the document establishes a connection or it
doesn't. I go where the evidence takes me.
As I have stated before, there are many genuine mysteries in the JFK
assassination, that we do not have to be misstating what the evidence says. If
you don't want to hear an occasional attempt to better-focus the available
evidence, you can put me in your kill-file. If I see what I feel is a
misstatement, I will continue to offer clarifications
oo
Dave.
Blackburst
In response to one of my posts, Pearl Gladstone writes:
>When thought and reactions are cut off from the processes of rational
>observance and deduction, you get these abberent creatures whose whole
>existence is to roll out the lies.
Could you point out anything I said that was untrue, or an unfair
characterization of the evidence?
oo
Dave
Amethyst
Blackburst,
Why is there such intense curiousity about ~whatever~ it was that Shaw
did for CIA?
It seems to be an attempt at 'guilt by association' ... but ... is
association with CIA something that implies guilt in anything?
What does it matter if Shaw was somehow associated with CIA?
Jerry
. wrote:
.
>
> In an earlier post, I questioned whether a particular CIA document establishes
.> a link between Shaw and the QKENCHANT project, whatever that is.
.>
.> Lisa Pease responded by citing general evidence of Shaw's contacts
with the
.> CIA, which I did not and do not question.
.>
.> I stand by my assertion that the passage in question, which I quoted
verbatim,
.> does not necessarily, as written, establish a connection between Shaw
and
.> QKENCHANT.
.>
.> >A memorandum marked only for file, 16 March 1967, signed by
Marguerite D.
.> >: Stevens, says that J. Monroe Sullivan, #280207, was granted a
covert
.> >security
.> >: approval on 10 December 1962 so that he could be used in Project
QKENCHANT.
.> >
.> >: SHAW has #402897-A."
.>
.> Newman may feel that it does, based on his reading. I don't, and the
readers
.> can decide for themselves.
.>
.> > Leave it to the CIA defender to play semantics and hope people
.> >are too shy to tell the emperor he is indeed naked.
.>
.> I resent being called a CIA defender. I have no interest in defending
CIA. I am
.> not playing semantics. Either the document establishes a connection
or it
.> doesn't. I go where the evidence takes me.
.>
.> As I have stated before, there are many genuine mysteries in the JFK
.> assassination, that we do not have to be misstating what the evidence
says. If
.> you don't want to hear an occasional attempt to better-focus the
available
.> evidence, you can put me in your kill-file. If I see what I feel is a
.> misstatement, I will continue to offer clarifications
.>
.> oo
.> Dave.
Martin Shackelford
Dave:
As I recall, J. Monroe Sullivan was the man who introduced Shaw
when he spoke in San Francisco on the day of the assassination.
Martin
Blackburst
Lisa Pease wrote:
>John Newman, and intelligence analyst for the government for many years,
>who is quite familiar with such records, confirmed that was Shaw's covert
>security number, i.e. he was working for the CIA.
>
>You can believe whatever fantasy you allow yourself. I'll stick with Newman.
You're going to "stick with" a government intelligence analyst?
oo
David
Alex Murphy
Everybody knows the Canadians do our domestic intelligence you silly goose!
Pearl Gladstone
truth. It has been obvious since the first day I started taking part on
this group, and any observant reader knows this full well.
It is most helpful of Lisa to provide background and data, but that
doesn't matter to you. Faced with the documentary evidence, you have
always chosen to go in opposition....as in 2 plus two are 5.
you'd never hold up a minute in free debate on equal footing with
honest, competent researchers.
I fervently hope the day comes soon when the networks or the cable
channels give a public opprtunity for thses knowledgeable researchers to
open the files so democracy can shine in.
Jean Davison
Pearl Gladstone <tr...@erols.com> wrote in article <358F71...@erols.com>...
You didn't answer his question, Pearl. Can you point
out anything he said that was untrue? Jean
Blackburst
Pearl Gladstone wrote:
>Dave
>I Say you are a blackburst indeed, an obscurantist, who would deny the
>truth. It has been obvious since the first day I started taking part on
>this group, and any observant reader knows this full well.
>
>It is most helpful of Lisa to provide background and data, but that
>doesn't matter to you. Faced with the documentary evidence, you have
>always chosen to go in opposition....as in 2 plus two are 5.
>
>you'd never hold up a minute in free debate on equal footing with
>honest, competent researchers.
>
>I fervently hope the day comes soon when the networks or the cable
>channels give a public opprtunity for thses knowledgeable researchers to
>open the files so democracy can shine in.
There are a few matters related to the New Orleans aspects of the case that are
not supported by my detailed research. I have tried to add to the discussion by
offering some little-known information and insight to help us focus on larger
matters.
I think Lisa Pease is a very good researcher who has made contributions to this
case. I sometimes catch mistakes or see things differently. I am not trying to
challenge her preeminence as a researcher. I wish we could all treat people
with differences of opinion with respect.
I am hurt that you regard me as not honest or competent.
oo
Dave
Pearl Gladstone
Jean Davison wrote:
>
> Pearl Gladstone <tr...@erols.com> wrote in article <358F71...@erols.com>...
> > Blackburst wrote:
> > >
> > > In response to one of my posts, Pearl Gladstone writes:
> > > >When thought and reactions are cut off from the processes of rational
> > > >observance and deduction, you get these abberent creatures whose whole
> > > >existence is to roll out the lies.
> > >
> > > Could you point out anything I said that was untrue, or an unfair
> > > characterization of the evidence?
> > >
> > > oo
> > I Say you are a blackburst indeed, an obscurantist, who would deny the
> > truth. It has been obvious since the first day I started taking part on
> > this group, and any observant reader knows this full well.
> >
> > It is most helpful of Lisa to provide background and data, but that
> > doesn't matter to you. Faced with the documentary evidence, you have
> > always chosen to go in opposition....as in 2 plus two are 5.
> >
> > you'd never hold up a minute in free debate on equal footing with
> > honest, competent researchers.
> >
> > I fervently hope the day comes soon when the networks or the cable
> > channels give a public opprtunity for thses knowledgeable researchers to
> > open the files so democracy can shine in.
>
> out anything he said that was untrue? Jean
>
time.
Blackburst
Pearl Gladstone wrote:
Blackburst
Pearl Gladstone wrote:
>Can you point
>> out anything he said that was untrue? Jean
>>
>All of it, but it's not worth the time, and you know it's not worth the
>time.
Again, if you specify something you think was untrue, I will cite references.
If they prove to be untrue, I will stand corrected. I hope you can find the
time to do so.
oo
Dave
amet...@prodigy.net
In article <199806251340...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
Dave,
Pearl is obviously a person severely afflicted with major psychiatric
maladies.
She is far, far beyond the reach of reason.
Jerry
Pearl Gladstone
Let's see, now, do you recommend prozac, like the missing but not
lamented michael beck, or perhaps a course in selling one's soul by
membership in an Entity group? That you should know all about.
How does it feel? Just take the nearest couch, lie back, and tell us all
about it :)
Vern Pascal
Hey Jerry;
The LN dance is over but your malady
lingers on.
When you get done diagnosing everyone
who disagrees with you as crazy, maybe you can find the time to respond
to the questions
I asked you, and any other lurking LN proponents who may wish to
participate re:
the thread "C7/T1 Entry a LN Myth".
I am unaccustomed to such a long period of silence from one usually so
vociferous on every issue. You wouldn't be avoiding the honest questions
I posed, would you?--------------
Vern