Four Daze in November -- Bugliosi's Airbrushed History III
dcwi...@netscape.net
A Book for the (Dark) Ages!
Page 71 The fact that Bob “missing 11/22/63 statement” Jackson gives
a new reason for not getting a pic of a rifle in a depository window
every time he’s asked suggests that even he isn’t quite satisfied with
his reason for not getting…. One day, it’s Happened Too Fast! The
next, it’s Wrong Lens on Loaded Camera. Or, Didn’t Give a Tinker’s
Dam about that Loaded Camera, I Just Wanted to Use the Unloaded Camera
like a Telescope so I Could See. Obviously, the rifle was at the
wrong window, & Jackson will continue to unspool comically unlikely
reasons for not getting that darn pic. Bugliosi wisely just stays
with Jackson’s first, “happened so fast” explanation, & leaves the
others alone.
Page 73 To Truly, “both elevators appear to be on the 5th floor”.
Hence, Baker & Truly must take the stairs up. But, according to
Bonnie Ray Williams’ earliest statement, he & Norman & Jarman went up
*together* & had, at most, commandeered only *one* elevator, to the
5th floor, then to the *4th floor (11/22/63 affidavit). But this had
to be *amended* to make the stairwell encounter between B&T & Oswald
possible…. (In his FBI statement the next day, Williams said he left
the elevator on the *6th* floor!)
Page 76 There are all sorts of problems--unacknowledged by Bugliosi--
with Mrs Reid’s story that she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the
shooting. She testified that he was wearing a T shirt, while most
other witnesses said they saw him in sleeves, of the shirt or jacket
sort. And a secretary, Ms Hine, testified that she returned to the
same office first, *before* Mrs R & did not see O….
Page 79 “12:35 pm Officers & squad cars are swarming the
depository.” Not quite this early, apparently--the police
transmissions calling all cars to the TSBD were not until 12:36 &
12:37.
Bugliosi repeats the story that BW Hargis was the first to radio in
re the TSBD, at 12:34. (Bugliosi puts it at 12:35.) And someone does
seem to be radioing in at that time. But Hargis told both the WC &
the HSCA that he at no time used his radio! This is my favorite
inexplicable Dealey incident.
2 b continued
Bud
dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
> A Book for the (Dark) Ages!
>
> Page 71 The fact that Bob �missing 11/22/63 statement� Jackson gives
> a new reason for not getting a pic of a rifle in a depository window
> every time he�s asked suggests that even he isn�t quite satisfied with
> his reason for not getting�. One day, it�s Happened Too Fast! The
> next, it�s Wrong Lens on Loaded Camera. Or, Didn�t Give a Tinker�s
> Dam about that Loaded Camera, I Just Wanted to Use the Unloaded Camera
> like a Telescope so I Could See. Obviously, the rifle was at the
> wrong window,
If you don`t like what the witness says, put it in any window you
see fit. Thats what Walt does.
> & Jackson will continue to unspool comically unlikely
> reasons for not getting that darn pic. Bugliosi wisely just stays
> with Jackson�s first, �happened so fast� explanation, & leaves the
> others alone.
How could it matter why Jackson didn`t get a photo?
> Page 73 To Truly, �both elevators appear to be on the 5th floor�.
> Hence, Baker & Truly must take the stairs up. But, according to
> Bonnie Ray Williams� earliest statement, he & Norman & Jarman went up
> *together* & had, at most, commandeered only *one* elevator, to the
> 5th floor, then to the *4th floor (11/22/63 affidavit). But this had
> to be *amended* to make the stairwell encounter between B&T & Oswald
> possible�. (In his FBI statement the next day, Williams said he left
> the elevator on the *6th* floor!)
How does the positioning of the elevator impact the encounter on the
second floor?
> Page 76 There are all sorts of problems--unacknowledged by Bugliosi--
> with Mrs Reid�s story that she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the
> shooting. She testified that he was wearing a T shirt, while most
> other witnesses said they saw him in sleeves,
Who saw Oswald when Reid saw oswald?
> of the shirt or jacket
> sort. And a secretary, Ms Hine, testified that she returned to the
> same office first, *before* Mrs R & did not see O�.
Seems you need to determine how Hines missed him.
> Page 79 �12:35 pm Officers & squad cars are swarming the
> depository.� Not quite this early, apparently--the police
> transmissions calling all cars to the TSBD were not until 12:36 &
> 12:37.
>
> Bugliosi repeats the story that BW Hargis was the first to radio in
> re the TSBD, at 12:34. (Bugliosi puts it at 12:35.) And someone does
> seem to be radioing in at that time. But Hargis told both the WC &
> the HSCA that he at no time used his radio! This is my favorite
> inexplicable Dealey incident.
Haygood said he made the call.
> 2 b continued
Bud
I found this transcript of the radio logs for channel two. It shows
a call at 12:34. Is Hargis 136-531?
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10692&relPageId=6
> 2 b continued
dcwi...@netscape.net
> dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
> > A Book for the (Dark) Ages!
>
> > Page 71 The fact that Bob missing 11/22/63 statement Jackson gives
> > a new reason for not getting a pic of a rifle in a depository window
> > every time he s asked suggests that even he isn t quite satisfied with
> > his reason for not getting . One day, it s Happened Too Fast! The
> > next, it s Wrong Lens on Loaded Camera. Or, Didn t Give a Tinker s
> > Dam about that Loaded Camera, I Just Wanted to Use the Unloaded Camera
> > like a Telescope so I Could See. Obviously, the rifle was at the
> > wrong window,
>
> If you don`t like what the witness says, put it in any window you
> see fit. Thats what Walt does.
>
> > & Jackson will continue to unspool comically unlikely
> > reasons for not getting that darn pic. Bugliosi wisely just stays
> > with Jackson s first, happened so fast explanation, & leaves the
> > others alone.
>
> How could it matter why Jackson didn`t get a photo?
See above (ie, wrong window)....
>
> > Page 73 To Truly, both elevators appear to be on the 5th floor .
> > Hence, Baker & Truly must take the stairs up. But, according to
> > Bonnie Ray Williams earliest statement, he & Norman & Jarman went up
> > *together* & had, at most, commandeered only *one* elevator, to the
> > 5th floor, then to the *4th floor (11/22/63 affidavit). But this had
> > to be *amended* to make the stairwell encounter between B&T & Oswald
> > possible . (In his FBI statement the next day, Williams said he left
> > the elevator on the *6th* floor!)
>
> How does the positioning of the elevator impact the encounter on the
> second floor?
Truly testified that both elevators were hung up on the 5th floor,
thus he & Baker had to take the stairs.
>
> > Page 76 There are all sorts of problems--unacknowledged by Bugliosi--
> > with Mrs Reid s story that she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the
> > shooting. She testified that he was wearing a T shirt, while most
> > other witnesses said they saw him in sleeves,
>
> Who saw Oswald when Reid saw oswald?
Baker & Truly supposedly saw him less than a minute before, in the
next room.
>
> > of the shirt or jacket
> > sort. And a secretary, Ms Hine, testified that she returned to the
> > same office first, *before* Mrs R & did not see O .
>
> Seems you need to determine how Hines missed him.
If you take the word of a person who didn't seem to know what Oswald
would have been wearing.
>
> > Page 79 12:35 pm Officers & squad cars are swarming the
> > depository. Not quite this early, apparently--the police
> > transmissions calling all cars to the TSBD were not until 12:36 &
> > 12:37.
>
> > Bugliosi repeats the story that BW Hargis was the first to radio in
> > re the TSBD, at 12:34. (Bugliosi puts it at 12:35.) And someone does
> > seem to be radioing in at that time. But Hargis told both the WC &
> > the HSCA that he at no time used his radio! This is my favorite
> > inexplicable Dealey incident.
>
> Haygood said he made the call.
No, that was a minute later--12:35.
>
> > 2 b continued
>
>
dcwi...@netscape.net
Yes, he's on record, & tapes apparently, as having made a call, but he
for some reason denied it. Inexplicable, & minorly fascinating....
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=106...
>
> > 2 b continued
>
>
Bud
> On Sep 13, 3:07 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
> > > A Book for the (Dark) Ages!
>
> > > Page 71 The fact that Bob missing 11/22/63 statement Jackson gives
> > > a new reason for not getting a pic of a rifle in a depository window
> > > every time he s asked suggests that even he isn t quite satisfied with
> > > his reason for not getting . One day, it s Happened Too Fast! The
> > > next, it s Wrong Lens on Loaded Camera. Or, Didn t Give a Tinker s
> > > Dam about that Loaded Camera, I Just Wanted to Use the Unloaded Camera
> > > like a Telescope so I Could See. Obviously, the rifle was at the
> > > wrong window,
>
> > If you don`t like what the witness says, put it in any window you
> > see fit. Thats what Walt does.
>
> > > & Jackson will continue to unspool comically unlikely
> > > reasons for not getting that darn pic. Bugliosi wisely just stays
> > > with Jackson s first, happened so fast explanation, & leaves the
> > > others alone.
>
> > How could it matter why Jackson didn`t get a photo?
>
> See above (ie, wrong window)....
What window did Jackson indicate?
> > > Page 73 To Truly, both elevators appear to be on the 5th floor .
> > > Hence, Baker & Truly must take the stairs up. But, according to
> > > Bonnie Ray Williams earliest statement, he & Norman & Jarman went up
> > > *together* & had, at most, commandeered only *one* elevator, to the
> > > 5th floor, then to the *4th floor (11/22/63 affidavit). But this had
> > > to be *amended* to make the stairwell encounter between B&T & Oswald
> > > possible . (In his FBI statement the next day, Williams said he left
> > > the elevator on the *6th* floor!)
>
> > How does the positioning of the elevator impact the encounter on the
> > second floor?
>
> Truly testified that both elevators were hung up on the 5th floor,
> thus he & Baker had to take the stairs.
They`d still have to take the stairs if it was hung up on the 4th,
wouldn`t they? How did the change make the 2nd floor encounter
possible?
> > > Page 76 There are all sorts of problems--unacknowledged by Bugliosi--
> > > with Mrs Reid s story that she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the
> > > shooting. She testified that he was wearing a T shirt, while most
> > > other witnesses said they saw him in sleeves,
>
> > Who saw Oswald when Reid saw Oswald?
>
> Baker & Truly supposedly saw him less than a minute before, in the
> next room.
So the answer is nobody. And did Truly say he saw Oswald in sleeves?
Who are these "most other witnesses" who contradict Reid?
> > > of the shirt or jacket
> > > sort. And a secretary, Ms Hine, testified that she returned to the
> > > same office first, *before* Mrs R & did not see O .
>
> > Seems you need to determine how Hines missed him.
>
> If you take the word of a person who didn't seem to know what Oswald
> would have been wearing.
She did seem to know what he was wearing. She said a t-shirt.
> > > Page 79 12:35 pm Officers & squad cars are swarming the
> > > depository. Not quite this early, apparently--the police
> > > transmissions calling all cars to the TSBD were not until 12:36 &
> > > 12:37.
>
> > > Bugliosi repeats the story that BW Hargis was the first to radio in
> > > re the TSBD, at 12:34. (Bugliosi puts it at 12:35.) And someone does
> > > seem to be radioing in at that time. But Hargis told both the WC &
> > > the HSCA that he at no time used his radio! This is my favorite
> > > inexplicable Dealey incident.
>
> > Haygood said he made the call.
>
> No, that was a minute later--12:35.
I checked Hargis`s WC testimony, I don`t see him denying he used his
radio. Maybe you can find it for me.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscaharg.htm
> > > 2 b continued
dcwi...@netscape.net
scenario, the trio comandeered only one elevator, leaving the other
one free....
dw
> > > > Page 76 There are all sorts of problems--unacknowledged by Bugliosi--
> > > > with Mrs Reid s story that she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the
> > > > shooting. She testified that he was wearing a T shirt, while most
> > > > other witnesses said they saw him in sleeves,
>
> > > Who saw Oswald when Reid saw Oswald?
>
> > Baker & Truly supposedly saw him less than a minute before, in the
> > next room.
>
> So the answer is nobody.
O would have had to take off his shirt/jacket as he walked thru the
doorway into the next room, & none of the principals said they saw him
doing that....
I think Mrs R saw O earlier that hour, still in his T shirt, as Jarman
said O usually worked. And J said O usually left his jacket/sleeved-
shirt on a hook on the 1st floor. So, O was on the 1st floor at
12:30, got his shirt, ran into B&T on the way out the front door.
That squares everyone on the attire! Glad you asked....
And did Truly say he saw Oswald in sleeves?
I don't think he ever said, one way or another
> Who are these "most other witnesses" who contradict Reid?
>
Mrs Bledsoe on the bus, was one, I believe. Baker. Scoggins had O
wearing 2 jackets!
> > > > of the shirt or jacket
> > > > sort. And a secretary, Ms Hine, testified that she returned to the
> > > > same office first, *before* Mrs R & did not see O .
>
> > > Seems you need to determine how Hines missed him.
>
> > If you take the word of a person who didn't seem to know what Oswald
> > would have been wearing.
>
> She did seem to know what he was wearing. She said a t-shirt.
Baker said sleeves/jacket, & Bledsoe said sleeves, afterwards. And
HIne was in the room before Reid.
>
> > > > Page 79 12:35 pm Officers & squad cars are swarming the
> > > > depository. Not quite this early, apparently--the police
> > > > transmissions calling all cars to the TSBD were not until 12:36 &
> > > > 12:37.
>
> > > > Bugliosi repeats the story that BW Hargis was the first to radio in
> > > > re the TSBD, at 12:34. (Bugliosi puts it at 12:35.) And someone does
> > > > seem to be radioing in at that time. But Hargis told both the WC &
> > > > the HSCA that he at no time used his radio! This is my favorite
> > > > inexplicable Dealey incident.
>
> > > Haygood said he made the call.
>
> > No, that was a minute later--12:35.
>
> I checked Hargis`s WC testimony, I don`t see him denying he used his
> radio. Maybe you can find it for me.
I don't see it either. I misspoke. He simply didn't mention it in
his WC testimony. It's in his HSCA interview: "At no time did he
have occasion to use his transmitter"
Bud
There were other people in the building moving around. Jack
Doughtery said he ate in the domino room, and went back upstairs to
work before the shots.. Likely he took an elevator.
> > > > > Page 76 There are all sorts of problems--unacknowledged by Bugliosi--
> > > > > with Mrs Reid s story that she saw Oswald on the 2nd floor after the
> > > > > shooting. She testified that he was wearing a T shirt, while most
> > > > > other witnesses said they saw him in sleeves,
>
> > > > Who saw Oswald when Reid saw Oswald?
>
> > > Baker & Truly supposedly saw him less than a minute before, in the
> > > next room.
>
> > So the answer is nobody.
>
> O would have had to take off his shirt/jacket as he walked thru the
> doorway into the next room, & none of the principals said they saw him
> doing that....
You think shirts can`t be put on or taken off without witnesses?
> I think Mrs R saw O earlier that hour, still in his T shirt, as Jarman
> said O usually worked.
Reid said she saw Oswald after the shooting.
> And J said O usually left his jacket/sleeved-
> shirt on a hook on the 1st floor. So, O was on the 1st floor at
> 12:30, got his shirt, ran into B&T on the way out the front door.
Baker said when he entered the TSBD, there was a small crowd of
people. Why would he point his gun at Oswald, out of everyone? Why
would he point his gun at anyone if he thought the shots came from the
roof? You need to stop putting all you focus on bad information, it
prevents you from figuring out this fairly simple event.
> That squares everyone on the attire! Glad you asked....
>
> And did Truly say he saw Oswald in sleeves?
>
> I don't think he ever said, one way or another
Neither do I. Which makes me wonder who are all these witnesses that
contradict Reid.
> > Who are these "most other witnesses" who contradict Reid?
>
> Mrs Bledsoe on the bus, was one, I believe.
Ouch! Out on the bus? Oz can take the shirt off and put it back on a
few dozen times between Reid and Bledsoe.
> Baker.
Here you have the only other witness inside the building besides
Reid who supplies a clothing description of Oswald shortly after the
shooting. Basically, it`s either-or, chances are only one of them
could be correct. Baker says brown shirt, but he is under duress and
in a hurry, and expresses unsurety. He sees Oz at the police station
in his brown shirt, which might have influenced his recollection.
> Scoggins had O
> wearing 2 jackets!
Thats Whaley.
And you are looking past an obvious solution. Brennan saw Oz in a
white shirt, Reid did, and Jarman did (Edwards, Rowland and Fischer
see unidentified man in white top on 6th floor). Oz shoots in the t-
shirt, encounters Baker, who is too preoccupied to take note of
clothing (but gets the impression of brown shirt at the stationhouse),
encounters Reid, who gets soda and t-shirt right, goes to first floor
where Jarman said he kept his overshirt, puts on shirt (wants to cover
the t-shirt, in case someone saw him shooting in it) and flees the
building. Encounters Bledsoe on the bus. That squares everyone on the
attire. Glad you asked.
> > > > > of the shirt or jacket
> > > > > sort. And a secretary, Ms Hine, testified that she returned to the
> > > > > same office first, *before* Mrs R & did not see O .
>
> > > > Seems you need to determine how Hines missed him.
>
> > > If you take the word of a person who didn't seem to know what Oswald
> > > would have been wearing.
>
> > She did seem to know what he was wearing. She said a t-shirt.
>
> Baker said sleeves/jacket, & Bledsoe said sleeves, afterwards. And
> HIne was in the room before Reid.
But somehow missed Oz.
> > > > > Page 79 12:35 pm Officers & squad cars are swarming the
> > > > > depository. Not quite this early, apparently--the police
> > > > > transmissions calling all cars to the TSBD were not until 12:36 &
> > > > > 12:37.
>
> > > > > Bugliosi repeats the story that BW Hargis was the first to radio in
> > > > > re the TSBD, at 12:34. (Bugliosi puts it at 12:35.) And someone does
> > > > > seem to be radioing in at that time. But Hargis told both the WC &
> > > > > the HSCA that he at no time used his radio! This is my favorite
> > > > > inexplicable Dealey incident.
>
> > > > Haygood said he made the call.
>
> > > No, that was a minute later--12:35.
>
> > I checked Hargis`s WC testimony, I don`t see him denying he used his
> > radio. Maybe you can find it for me.
>
> I don't see it either. I misspoke.
Well, it ok, as long as it`s you and not Bugliosi. Thats the only
time it is significant.
> He simply didn't mention it in
> his WC testimony. It's in his HSCA interview: "At no time did he
> have occasion to use his transmitter"
Many years later, and not a direct quote. Funny, though, when the
photographic evidence contradicts witness testimony (the window and
the 5th floor guys), you side with the evidence. In this case, the
tape evidence contradicts the witness testimony, and you side with the
witness.
So, to get back to your initial complaint, can Bugliosi really be
criticized for taking the tape evidence over Hargis`s recollections of
many years later?
dcwi...@netscape.net
So he's doing this just to confuse everyone?
>
> > I think Mrs R saw O earlier that hour, still in his T shirt, as Jarman
> > said O usually worked.
>
> Reid said she saw Oswald after the shooting.
Maybe she was wrong.
David Von Pein
>>> "Maybe she was wrong." <<<
It's highly unlikely that Mrs. Reid could be mistaken about when she
saw Oswald on November 22nd, which was certainly AFTER the shooting of
the President....because Reid not only saw LHO, but she SPOKE to him
about the shooting that had just taken place outside the building:
"I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the
back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk
several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot,
but maybe they didn't hit him." He mumbled something to me, I kept
walking, he did, too." -- MRS. ROBERT A. REID
dcwi...@netscape.net
> On Sep 14, 2:21 am, dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
>
>
>
> > And J said O usually left his jacket/sleeved-
> > shirt on a hook on the 1st floor. So, O was on the 1st floor at
> > 12:30, got his shirt, ran into B&T on the way out the front door.
>
> Baker said when he entered the TSBD, there was a small crowd of
> people. Why would he point his gun at Oswald, out of everyone?
Why did Tippit stop (the) Oswald (lookalike)? Food for conjecture,
too. My guess is O was hurrying out the door. Leaving the crime
scene.
Why
> would he point his gun at anyone if he thought the shots came from the
> roof?
Otis Williams, janitor, said he showed a cop all around the 2nd floor
right after the shooting. Maybe Baker didn't want to go to the
top....
You need to stop putting all you focus on bad information, it
> prevents you from figuring out this fairly simple event.
Covered-up incidents might look like bad information because they're
er covered up, imperfectly.
> > That squares everyone on the attire! Glad you asked....
>
> > And did Truly say he saw Oswald in sleeves?
>
> > I don't think he ever said, one way or another
>
> Neither do I. Which makes me wonder who are all these witnesses that
> contradict Reid.
>
> > > Who are these "most other witnesses" who contradict Reid?
>
> > Mrs Bledsoe on the bus, was one, I believe.
>
> Ouch! Out on the bus? Oz can take the shirt off and put it back on a
> few dozen times between Reid and Bledsoe.
If that's your idea of a good time!
>
> > Baker.
>
> Here you have the only other witness inside the building besides
> Reid who supplies a clothing description of Oswald shortly after the
> shooting. Basically, it`s either-or, chances are only one of them
> could be correct. Baker says brown shirt, but he is under duress and
> in a hurry, and expresses unsurety. He sees Oz at the police station
> in his brown shirt, which might have influenced his recollection.
People are fond of this very scene because Baker apparently didn't get
his description quite right....
>
> > Scoggins had O
> > wearing 2 jackets!
>
> Thats Whaley.
>
> And you are looking past an obvious solution. Brennan saw Oz in a
> white shirt, Reid did, and Jarman did
Jarman told the FBI on 12/5/63 that he "could not recall what type of
clothing O was wearing on Nov 22...."
(Edwards, Rowland and Fischer
> see unidentified man in white top on 6th floor). Oz shoots in the t-
> shirt, encounters Baker, who is too preoccupied to take note of
> clothing (but gets the impression of brown shirt at the stationhouse)
Here's where I think your scenario goes into full speculation mode.
(Whereas my scenarios *never* do!) More likely (if still
speculatively) Baker actually encountered O on the 1st floor after O
had picked up his shirt from the "dressing room".
,
> encounters Reid, who gets soda and t-shirt right, goes to first floor
> where Jarman said he kept his overshirt
Very good. But J said O kept it in the "dressing room", & the most
likely spot for the latter would seem to be by the shower (WR p148),
which is near the back. The WR's Oswald flight route (p150) shows him
coming down the stairs from the 2nd floor near the *front* door on the
1st floor. He would then have to go to the back, & the more logical
choice of exits here, then, would have been the *back* door, while I
believe it's generally held he left by the *front* door. So if he
"flees the building" (as you put it) by the back door, yes, I could
almost buy that.
Actually, I don't. I said "inexplicable", which means I don't know
who or what to believe here, certainly not my own eyes....
> So, to get back to your initial complaint, can Bugliosi really be
> criticized for taking the tape evidence over Hargis`s recollections of
> many years later?
>
No. As I say, could go either way.
dcwi...@netscape.net
officer before R.
Bud
You think this testimony makes what reid said null and void, do you?
How does Hines get the chronology? Maybe Reid has the encounter with
Oz, she steps out of the room, Hines comes in, Reid comes back in,
Hines thinks he was first into the room. All kinds of possibilities,
the least likely being Reid manufactured the encounter with Oz.
Bud
> On Sep 14, 11:45 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sep 14, 2:21 am, dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > > And J said O usually left his jacket/sleeved-
> > > shirt on a hook on the 1st floor. So, O was on the 1st floor at
> > > 12:30, got his shirt, ran into B&T on the way out the front door.
>
> > Baker said when he entered the TSBD, there was a small crowd of
> > people. Why would he point his gun at Oswald, out of everyone?
>
> Why did Tippit stop (the) Oswald (lookalike)?
Apples and oranges. Baker thought the shooter was on the roof of the
TSBD, so he runs to TSBD and points his gun at Oswald out of all the
people he finds there. It makes no sense, you need to abandon that
"Baker encountered Oswald on the 1st floor" nonsense.
> Food for conjecture,
> too. My guess is O was hurrying out the door. Leaving the crime
> scene.
>
> Why
>
> > would he point his gun at anyone if he thought the shots came from the
> > roof?
>
> Otis Williams, janitor, said he showed a cop all around the 2nd floor
> right after the shooting. Maybe Baker didn't want to go to the
> top....
Did Williams say what the cops name was? That can`t possibly trump
Baker and Truly saying they went up.
> You need to stop putting all you focus on bad information, it
>
> > prevents you from figuring out this fairly simple event.
>
> Covered-up incidents might look like bad information because they're
> er covered up, imperfectly.
Or human beings recount events imperfectly, and kooks sit around
imagining plots behind every difficulty in the evidence they can find.
> > > That squares everyone on the attire! Glad you asked....
>
> > > And did Truly say he saw Oswald in sleeves?
>
> > > I don't think he ever said, one way or another
>
> > Neither do I. Which makes me wonder who are all these witnesses that
> > contradict Reid.
>
> > > > Who are these "most other witnesses" who contradict Reid?
>
> > > Mrs Bledsoe on the bus, was one, I believe.
>
> > Ouch! Out on the bus? Oz can take the shirt off and put it back on a
> > few dozen times between Reid and Bledsoe.
>
> If that's your idea of a good time!
No, it`s my idea of pointing out how silly the concept of "Oz was
wearing something here, so he could not be wearing something else
here" really is.
> > > Baker.
>
> > Here you have the only other witness inside the building besides
> > Reid who supplies a clothing description of Oswald shortly after the
> > shooting. Basically, it`s either-or, chances are only one of them
> > could be correct. Baker says brown shirt, but he is under duress and
> > in a hurry, and expresses unsurety. He sees Oz at the police station
> > in his brown shirt, which might have influenced his recollection.
>
> People are fond of this very scene because Baker apparently didn't get
> his description quite right....
That is apparently the case.
> > > Scoggins had O
> > > wearing 2 jackets!
>
> > Thats Whaley.
>
> > And you are looking past an obvious solution. Brennan saw Oz in a
> > white shirt, Reid did, and Jarman did
>
> Jarman told the FBI on 12/5/63 that he "could not recall what type of
> clothing O was wearing on Nov 22...."
That still leaves Jarman as a witness to Oz generally working in
his t-shirt, and leaving his overshirt on the first floor.
> (Edwards, Rowland and Fischer
>
> > see unidentified man in white top on 6th floor). Oz shoots in the t-
> > shirt, encounters Baker, who is too preoccupied to take note of
> > clothing (but gets the impression of brown shirt at the stationhouse)
>
> Here's where I think your scenario goes into full speculation mode.
> (Whereas my scenarios *never* do!) More likely (if still
> speculatively) Baker actually encountered O on the 1st floor after O
> had picked up his shirt from the "dressing room".
If Baker pointed his gun at Oswald when he entered the first floor
(which he would have no reason in the world to do) , don`t you think
there would be quite a few witnesses to this? And what about Reid
putting him upstairs. And Truly putting him upstairs? The "Oz on the
first floor" idea doesn`t hold water in any respect.
> > encounters Reid, who gets soda and t-shirt right, goes to first floor
> > where Jarman said he kept his overshirt
>
> Very good. But J said O kept it in the "dressing room", & the most
> likely spot for the latter would seem to be by the shower (WR p148),
> which is near the back.
There is a dressing room of sorts in the basement.
> The WR's Oswald flight route (p150) shows him
> coming down the stairs from the 2nd floor near the *front* door on the
> 1st floor. He would then have to go to the back, & the more logical
> choice of exits here, then, would have been the *back* door, while I
> believe it's generally held he left by the *front* door. So if he
> "flees the building" (as you put it) by the back door, yes, I could
> almost buy that.
I always felt the back door was more likely.
My mistake, I thought the purpose of this post was to criticize
Bugliosi`s work.
dcwi...@netscape.net
out, in out in
> > >http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/reid.htm
>
>
dcwi...@netscape.net
> On Sep 15, 12:27 am, dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > On Sep 14, 11:45 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 14, 2:21 am, dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > > > And J said O usually left his jacket/sleeved-
> > > > shirt on a hook on the 1st floor. So, O was on the 1st floor at
> > > > 12:30, got his shirt, ran into B&T on the way out the front door.
>
> > > Baker said when he entered the TSBD, there was a small crowd of
> > > people. Why would he point his gun at Oswald, out of everyone?
>
> > Why did Tippit stop (the) Oswald (lookalike)?
>
> Apples and oranges. Baker thought the shooter was on the roof of the
> TSBD, so he runs to TSBD and points his gun at Oswald out of all the
> people he finds there.
Who was there? Baker ran in before anyone else, right? And if O is
waltzing *out* that would look suspicious, like he was maybe an
accomplice, which actually is what I think....
dw
It makes no sense, you need to abandon that
> "Baker encountered Oswald on the 1st floor" nonsense.
>
> > Food for conjecture,
> > too. My guess is O was hurrying out the door. Leaving the crime
> > scene.
>
> > Why
>
> > > would he point his gun at anyone if he thought the shots came from the
> > > roof?
>
> > Otis Williams, janitor, said he showed a cop all around the 2nd floor
> > right after the shooting. Maybe Baker didn't want to go to the
> > top....
>
> Did Williams say what the cops name was? That can`t possibly trump
> Baker and Truly saying they went up.
It certainly can tie it, if Baker's final word (around '93) was that
he & Truly did run into O on the 1st floor
>
> > You need to stop putting all you focus on bad information, it
>
> > > prevents you from figuring out this fairly simple event.
>
> > Covered-up incidents might look like bad information because they're
> > er covered up, imperfectly.
>
> Or human beings recount events imperfectly, and kooks sit around
> imagining plots behind every difficulty in the evidence they can find.
>
Or kooks defend the official record because if it were wrong, then
that would mean the killers were still on the loose, or died before
they could be tried, like Sorrels & Fritz....
>
> > > > That squares everyone on the attire! Glad you asked....
>
> > > > And did Truly say he saw Oswald in sleeves?
>
> > > > I don't think he ever said, one way or another
>
> > > Neither do I. Which makes me wonder who are all these witnesses that
> > > contradict Reid.
>
> > > > > Who are these "most other witnesses" who contradict Reid?
>
> > > > Mrs Bledsoe on the bus, was one, I believe.
>
> > > Ouch! Out on the bus? Oz can take the shirt off and put it back on a
> > > few dozen times between Reid and Bledsoe.
>
> > If that's your idea of a good time!
>
> No, it`s my idea of pointing out how silly the concept of "Oz was
> wearing something here, so he could not be wearing something else
> here" really is.
Silly that he's wearing sleeves one second & a T shirt the next, &
apparently hiding the sleeved shirt... where, exactly? when Mrs R said
she saw him, but didn't mention him carrying a shirt?
>
> > > > Baker.
>
> > > Here you have the only other witness inside the building besides
> > > Reid who supplies a clothing description of Oswald shortly after the
> > > shooting. Basically, it`s either-or, chances are only one of them
> > > could be correct. Baker says brown shirt, but he is under duress and
> > > in a hurry, and expresses unsurety. He sees Oz at the police station
> > > in his brown shirt, which might have influenced his recollection.
>
> > People are fond of this very scene because Baker apparently didn't get
> > his description quite right....
>
> That is apparently the case.
>
> > > > Scoggins had O
> > > > wearing 2 jackets!
>
> > > Thats Whaley.
>
> > > And you are looking past an obvious solution. Brennan saw Oz in a
> > > white shirt, Reid did, and Jarman did
>
> > Jarman told the FBI on 12/5/63 that he "could not recall what type of
> > clothing O was wearing on Nov 22...."
>
> That still leaves Jarman as a witness to Oz generally working in
> his t-shirt, and leaving his overshirt on the first floor.
Yes, that's all, not as a witness to what he was wearing that
particular day
>
> > (Edwards, Rowland and Fischer
>
> > > see unidentified man in white top on 6th floor). Oz shoots in the t-
> > > shirt, encounters Baker, who is too preoccupied to take note of
> > > clothing (but gets the impression of brown shirt at the stationhouse)
>
> > Here's where I think your scenario goes into full speculation mode.
> > (Whereas my scenarios *never* do!) More likely (if still
> > speculatively) Baker actually encountered O on the 1st floor after O
> > had picked up his shirt from the "dressing room".
>
> If Baker pointed his gun at Oswald when he entered the first floor
> (which he would have no reason in the world to do
That's pretty absolute. Maybe O spotted the cop, not expecting any
cop, because they were all supposed to have been told to go to the
underpass, & O bolted towards the front door thinking he'd been double
crossed. Maybe Baker was trigger happy. Maybe O gave him a dirty
look. There's 21 possible reasons right there, more or less!
) , don`t you think
> there would be quite a few witnesses to this? And what about Reid
> putting him upstairs.
Contradicted by Baker on one count & Hine on another. Compromised
witness....
And Truly putting him upstairs?
Truly telling cops about a 1st-floor encounter was apparently Biffle's
source for his news story on 11/23, about a first-f. e....
By "airbrushing" I mean ignoring possible conflicting evidence, such
as Hargis' own words
tomnln
<dcwi...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:c2ebac98-ac28-4813...@b2g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Bud
> On Sep 15, 4:22 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 15, 12:27 am, dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 14, 11:45 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > On Sep 14, 2:21 am, dcwill...@netscape.net wrote:
>
> > > > > And J said O usually left his jacket/sleeved-
> > > > > shirt on a hook on the 1st floor. So, O was on the 1st floor at
> > > > > 12:30, got his shirt, ran into B&T on the way out the front door.
>
> > > > Baker said when he entered the TSBD, there was a small crowd of
> > > > people. Why would he point his gun at Oswald, out of everyone?
>
> > > Why did Tippit stop (the) Oswald (lookalike)?
>
> > Apples and oranges. Baker thought the shooter was on the roof of the
> > TSBD, so he runs to TSBD and points his gun at Oswald out of all the
> > people he finds there.
>
> Who was there?
According to his 11-22 affidavit, "As I entered the door, i saw
several people standing around..."
> Baker ran in before anyone else, right?
Dunno.
> And if O is
> waltzing *out* that would look suspicious, like he was maybe an
> accomplice, which actually is what I think....
Naw, you are trying to make sense where there is no sense to be
made. You just need to abandon that "Oz was on the first flor when
Baker came in", it`s just nonsense.
> dw
> It makes no sense, you need to abandon that
>
>
>
> > "Baker encountered Oswald on the 1st floor" nonsense.
>
> > > Food for conjecture,
> > > too. My guess is O was hurrying out the door. Leaving the crime
> > > scene.
>
> > > Why
>
> > > > would he point his gun at anyone if he thought the shots came from the
> > > > roof?
>
> > > Otis Williams, janitor, said he showed a cop all around the 2nd floor
> > > right after the shooting. Maybe Baker didn't want to go to the
> > > top....
>
> > Did Williams say what the cops name was? That can`t possibly trump
> > Baker and Truly saying they went up.
>
> It certainly can tie it, if Baker's final word (around '93) was that
> he & Truly did run into O on the 1st floor
<snicker> This is what you are trying to build off of, something
Baker said 30 years after the fact? I guess this is just one more
difference between LN and conspiracy kooks, LN can dismiss information
that doesn`t make sense, kooks cling to it like they found a gold
nugget.
> > > You need to stop putting all you focus on bad information, it
>
> > > > prevents you from figuring out this fairly simple event.
>
> > > Covered-up incidents might look like bad information because they're
> > > er covered up, imperfectly.
>
> > Or human beings recount events imperfectly, and kooks sit around
> > imagining plots behind every difficulty in the evidence they can find.
>
> Or kooks defend the official record because if it were wrong, then
> that would mean the killers were still on the loose, or died before
> they could be tried, like Sorrels & Fritz....
You just can`t support such an amazing premise uses the approach
you are attempting. The most that can be said about these difficulties
is that there may not be enough information to explain them. To show
these men involved in a planned plot beforehand, you`d have to show
them involved in a planned plot beforehand. You never will be able to
do this, because these plots you imagine just didn`t occur.
> > > > > That squares everyone on the attire! Glad you asked....
>
> > > > > And did Truly say he saw Oswald in sleeves?
>
> > > > > I don't think he ever said, one way or another
>
> > > > Neither do I. Which makes me wonder who are all these witnesses that
> > > > contradict Reid.
>
> > > > > > Who are these "most other witnesses" who contradict Reid?
>
> > > > > Mrs Bledsoe on the bus, was one, I believe.
>
> > > > Ouch! Out on the bus? Oz can take the shirt off and put it back on a
> > > > few dozen times between Reid and Bledsoe.
>
> > > If that's your idea of a good time!
>
> > No, it`s my idea of pointing out how silly the concept of "Oz was
> > wearing something here, so he could not be wearing something else
> > here" really is.
>
> Silly that he's wearing sleeves one second & a T shirt the next,
Silly you think these encounters occurred a second apart.
> &
> apparently hiding the sleeved shirt... where, exactly? when Mrs R said
> she saw him, but didn't mention him carrying a shirt?
As I explained, I don`t think he had on or was wearing the brown
shirt when encounter by Baker or Reid. But, it is impossible to rule
out them both being right, or both being wrong, by what is in
evidence. Also, as I explained, the most reasonable explanation, when
taking all the evidence into consideration, is that Baker was
mistaken, and Reid was correct.
> > > > > Baker.
>
> > > > Here you have the only other witness inside the building besides
> > > > Reid who supplies a clothing description of Oswald shortly after the
> > > > shooting. Basically, it`s either-or, chances are only one of them
> > > > could be correct. Baker says brown shirt, but he is under duress and
> > > > in a hurry, and expresses unsurety. He sees Oz at the police station
> > > > in his brown shirt, which might have influenced his recollection.
>
> > > People are fond of this very scene because Baker apparently didn't get
> > > his description quite right....
>
> > That is apparently the case.
>
> > > > > Scoggins had O
> > > > > wearing 2 jackets!
>
> > > > Thats Whaley.
>
> > > > And you are looking past an obvious solution. Brennan saw Oz in a
> > > > white shirt, Reid did, and Jarman did
>
> > > Jarman told the FBI on 12/5/63 that he "could not recall what type of
> > > clothing O was wearing on Nov 22...."
>
> > That still leaves Jarman as a witness to Oz generally working in
> > his t-shirt, and leaving his overshirt on the first floor.
>
> Yes, that's all, not as a witness to what he was wearing that
> particular day
In any case, he couldn`t be a witness to what Oz was wearing at
12:30.
> > > (Edwards, Rowland and Fischer
>
> > > > see unidentified man in white top on 6th floor). Oz shoots in the t-
> > > > shirt, encounters Baker, who is too preoccupied to take note of
> > > > clothing (but gets the impression of brown shirt at the stationhouse)
>
> > > Here's where I think your scenario goes into full speculation mode.
> > > (Whereas my scenarios *never* do!) More likely (if still
> > > speculatively) Baker actually encountered O on the 1st floor after O
> > > had picked up his shirt from the "dressing room".
>
> > If Baker pointed his gun at Oswald when he entered the first floor
> > (which he would have no reason in the world to do
>
> That's pretty absolute. Maybe O spotted the cop, not expecting any
> cop, because they were all supposed to have been told to go to the
> underpass, & O bolted towards the front door thinking he'd been double
> crossed. Maybe Baker was trigger happy. Maybe O gave him a dirty
> look. There's 21 possible reasons right there, more or less!
>
> ) , don`t you think
Ok, something Baker had no good reason to do if he went in looking
for a rooftop shooter.
> > there would be quite a few witnesses to this? And what about Reid
> > putting him upstairs.
>
> Contradicted by Baker on one count & Hine on another. Compromised
> witness....
Only if you operate under the mistaken assumption that all the
details witnesses relate must jive with all the details other
witnesses relate.
> And Truly putting him upstairs?
>
> Truly telling cops about a 1st-floor encounter was apparently Biffle's
> source for his news story on 11/23, about a first-f. e....
Yah, it must have been pretty hectic an confused early on. Makes it
kind of tough to piece who said what to who precisely.
The book was big enough as it was, now you want Bugs to address all
the possible conflicting evidence also?
dcwi...@netscape.net
And the fact that it reinforces the newspaper report 1 day after the
fact!
dw
So Baker blew it on the 2nd floor, & couldn't get the clothing
description right, then he blew it at HQ & couldn't get O's
description right. And he had the encounter, originally, on the 3rd
or 4th floor *landing*; then, in the 2nd-floor lunchroom; then, on the
1st floor.... How can we take his word for *anything*?
Reid jibes with no one....
>
> > And Truly putting him upstairs?
>
> > Truly telling cops about a 1st-floor encounter was apparently Biffle's
> > source for his news story on 11/23, about a first-f. e....
>
> Yah, it must have been pretty hectic an confused early on. Makes it
> kind of tough to piece who said what to who precisely.
SNIP
David Von Pein
>>> "How can we take his [Marrion Baker's] word for *anything*?" <<<
LOL. Easy. Roy Truly corroborates the 2nd-Floor lunchroom
encounter...and, possibly more importantly, Oswald HIMSELF told us he
ran into Baker and Truly on the SECOND FLOOR and no other floor.
Oswald admitted he was stopped by a policeman after he (LHO) had gone
to the 2nd Floor to get a Coke.
==========================================================
"There is another very powerful reason why we can know that
Oswald, at the time of his confrontation with [Officer Marrion] Baker
in the second-floor lunchroom, had just come down from the sixth
floor, not up from the first floor [to get a Coke], as he
claimed. ....
"Indeed there was a Coca-Cola machine in the [second-floor
lunch] room. But to my knowledge, there is no direct reference in the
assassination literature to a second soft drink machine in the Book
Depository Building. ....
"Neither [Bonnie Ray] Williams nor [Wesley] Frazier expressly
said what floor this [second soda] machine was on. .... Through a few
phone calls I was able to reach Wesley Frazier, whom I hadn't talked
to since 1986, when he testified for me at the London trial. Still
living in Dallas, he told me that "there was a Dr. Pepper machine on
the first floor." Where, specifically, was it? [Frazier:] "It was
located by the double freight elevator near the back of the
building." ....
"And indeed, I subsequently found proof of the existence of the
machine, with the words "Dr. Pepper" near the top front of it, in an
FBI photo taken for the Warren Commission of the northwest corner of
the first floor, and it is located right next to the
refrigerator. ....
www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relPageId=12
"So we see that apart from all the conclusive evidence that
Oswald shot Kennedy from the sniper's nest, and therefore had to have
descended from there to the second floor, his story about going up to
the second floor to get a Coke doesn't even make sense. Why go up to
the second floor to get a drink for your lunch when there's a soft
drink machine on the first floor, the floor you say you are already
on, particularly when the apparent drink of your choice [Dr. Pepper by
all accounts] is on this first floor, not the second floor?" -- VINCE
BUGLIOSI; Pages 957-958 of "Reclaiming History" (c.2007)
======================================================
Bud
What newspaper report? Was Baker the source? The preponderance of
evidence clearly show the encounter taking place in the second floor
lunchroom. I know you aren`t really trying to determine what occurred,
but are merely engaged in some game where anything that indicates an
alternative to the official story is to be latched onto and exploited,
but that is just a silly kook game.
Perhaps the problem lies with your expectations. By far, the most
reasonable approach is that there was a human being in excited
conditions operating in a normal manner. What we have is what Baker
submits under those conditions.
> And he had the encounter, originally, on the 3rd
> or 4th floor *landing*; then, in the 2nd-floor lunchroom; then, on the
> 1st floor.... How can we take his word for *anything*?
You think people are robots? He did have an encounter with Oz.
Truly, who knew the building, placed it on the second floor.
Not true. Baker and Truly put Oz in the building near her location
around the same time. Truly says they saw Oz in the lunchroom, and
Reid sees Oz with a soda.
dcwi...@netscape.net
>
> "So we see that apart from all the conclusive evidence that
> Oswald shot Kennedy from the sniper's nest, and therefore had to have
> descended from there to the second floor, his story about going up to
> the second floor to get a Coke doesn't even make sense. Why go up to
> the second floor to get a drink for your lunch when there's a soft
> drink machine on the first floor, the floor you say you are already
> on, particularly when the apparent drink of your choice [Dr. Pepper by
> all accounts] is on this first floor, not the second floor?" -- VINCE
> BUGLIOSI; Pages 957-958 of "Reclaiming History" (c.2007)
>
> ======================================================
All very nice. Now determine that the first-floor machine wasn't out
of Dr Pepper by noon on that busy day....
dw
dcwi...@netscape.net
>
> LOL. Easy. Roy Truly corroborates the 2nd-Floor lunchroom
> encounter...and, possibly more importantly, Oswald HIMSELF told us he
> ran into Baker and Truly on the SECOND FLOOR and no other floor.
>
> Oswald admitted he was stopped by a policeman after he (LHO) had gone
> to the 2nd Floor to get a Coke.
Captain Fritz's invention. FBI Agent Hosty, who was there during this
portion of the interview, was very consistent, from his & Bookhout's
report, to his, Hosty's, WC testimony, to his book--Oswald indeed said
he went up to get a soda on the 2nd floor, but said nothing about
running into a cop!
dw
>
> ==========================================================
>
> "There is another very powerful reason why we can know that
> Oswald, at the time of his confrontation with [Officer Marrion] Baker
> in the second-floor lunchroom, had just come down from the sixth
> floor, not up from the first floor [to get a Coke], as he
> claimed. ....
>
> "Indeed there was a Coca-Cola machine in the [second-floor
> lunch] room. But to my knowledge, there is no direct reference in the
> assassination literature to a second soft drink machine in the Book
> Depository Building. ....
>
> "Neither [Bonnie Ray] Williams nor [Wesley] Frazier expressly
> said what floor this [second soda] machine was on. .... Through a few
> phone calls I was able to reach Wesley Frazier, whom I hadn't talked
> to since 1986, when he testified for me at the London trial. Still
> living in Dallas, he told me that "there was a Dr. Pepper machine on
> the first floor." Where, specifically, was it? [Frazier:] "It was
> located by the double freight elevator near the back of the
> building." ....
>
> "And indeed, I subsequently found proof of the existence of the
> machine, with the words "Dr. Pepper" near the top front of it, in an
> FBI photo taken for the Warren Commission of the northwest corner of
> the first floor, and it is located right next to the
> refrigerator. ....
>
> www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10896&relP...
dcwi...@netscape.net
Dallas Morning News. Biffle, as I recall. The author that is. Truly
seems to have been the source, in a discussion with cops which Biffle
overheard.... And Baker's own first statement has the encounter near
the stairway! No mention of a lunchroom....
dw
The preponderance of
> evidence
Of course, in a cover-up, you get a "preponderance" of the evidence
wanted, & the evidence you don't want is mostly uh covered-up. Duh.
clearly show the encounter taking place in the second floor
> lunchroom. I know you aren`t really trying to determine what occurred,
> but are merely engaged in some game where anything that indicates an
> alternative to the official story is to be latched onto and exploited,
> but that is just a silly kook game.
>
I think someone who takes everything at face value, as you do, is
unconcerned with what really happened....
In Biffle's story he was telling cops it occurred on the first floor.
>
SNIP SNAPP & SNURR
David Von Pein
>>> "Captain Fritz's invention. FBI Agent Hosty, who was there during this portion of the interview, was very consistent, from his & Bookhout's report, to his, Hosty's, WC testimony, to his book--Oswald indeed said he went up to get a soda on the 2nd floor, but said nothing about running into a cop!" <<<
So, just because the policeman (Marrion Baker) isn't mentioned
specifically in the notes of the FBI agents (but is mentioned in TWO
sets of notes from Capt. Fritz--his handwritten notes and his
typewritten version of events), Donald Willis is ready to call THREE
different people bald-faced liars -- Roy Truly, Marrion Baker, and
John Will Fritz.
Don, you're a hoot.
aeffects
ahhh..... a quote from my fav Lone Neuter; Steve "your a hoot" Keating
-- Nice to see you surface on occasion, hon! ROTFLMFAO
Bud
This is the kind of information you are trying to use in support of
this amazing premise?
> And Baker's own first statement has the encounter near
> the stairway! No mention of a lunchroom....
The lunchroom is near the stairway.
> dw
> The preponderance of
>
> > evidence
>
> Of course, in a cover-up, you get a "preponderance" of the evidence
> wanted, & the evidence you don't want is mostly uh covered-up. Duh.
So, the plan was to just let Oz roam freely, and no matter where he
went (even outside), or how many people saw him, to just get all those
people to lie about where they saw him?
> clearly show the encounter taking place in the second floor> lunchroom. I know you aren`t really trying to determine what occurred,
> > but are merely engaged in some game where anything that indicates an
> > alternative to the official story is to be latched onto and exploited,
> > but that is just a silly kook game.
>
> I think someone who takes everything at face value, as you do, is
> unconcerned with what really happened....
I think it is a form of sickness to think that if a traffic light
turns red on me, that light was remotely controlled by someone to
thwart my progress. Far and away the most likely possibility is that
none of these people knew anything about the murder beforehand, and
just related events (sometimes imperfectly) as they recalled them.
When you need to keep piling one absurdly unlikely thing on to another
in order to deny Oswald`s guilt, perhaps it`s just time to admit the
man was guilty. Your theories require a complex cohesive plan in
place, which requires anyone to say anything required by the cover-up.
As Occam points out, when such complexity is needed in support of a
theory, it`s time to question the theory.
When? Was Oswald a suspect when the conversation took place?
Also, what exactly did Truly (if it was Truly) supposedly say? If
"Truly" said lunchroom, it`s possible Biffle thought the only
lunchroom was on the first floor. Do you realy think this information
as it stands is enough to outweigh statements made by all three people
involved?
dcwi...@netscape.net
> >>> "Captain Fritz's invention. FBI Agent Hosty, who was there during this portion of the interview, was very consistent, from his & Bookhout's report, to his, Hosty's, WC testimony, to his book--Oswald indeed said he went up to get a soda on the 2nd floor, but said nothing about running into a cop!" <<<
>
> So, just because the policeman (Marrion Baker) isn't mentioned
> specifically
Slight oversight! Har har har!
in the notes of the FBI agents (but is mentioned in TWO
> sets of notes from Capt. Fritz--his handwritten notes and his
> typewritten version of events), Donald Willis is ready to call THREE
> different people bald-faced liars -- Roy Truly
No--he told the truth to the cops on 11/22, & Kent Biffle reported it
in the DMN
, Marrion Baker
No--he told the truth in "JFK First Day Evidence" about running into O
on the 1st floor
, and
> John Will Fritz
Yeah--he lied. But he was consistent--he also all-but-lied in his
affidavit when he said he didn't touch any hulls in situ!