Debating The John F. Kennedy Assassination (Part 22)
David Von Pein
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SUBJECT -- The JFK Assassination: The Ongoing "Lone Assassin vs.
Conspiracy" Debate.
FEATURED TEXT -- Archived JFK Forum Messages From April 2006 and June
2006.
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CTer (A CONSPIRACY THEORIST) -- Davey attempted to assert that the
angle of the bullet {upon entering JFK's back} was evidence for the
SBT. But when the ONLY medical evidence concerning this trajectory is
mentioned, Davey-boy goes spastic.
DVP (DAVID VON PEIN) -- The silly "45-degree angle" speculation is NOT
the "only" medical evidence concerning the SBT-like trajectory through
John Kennedy's body.
Read the whole Warren Report and the totality of Dr. Humes' testimony.
Humes said (and the official autopsy report says) that there was a
wound of entry on JFK's back that was "5.5 in. (14 cm.) below the tip
of the right mastoid process". And there was a wound of "exit" in the
throat/neck at the place where Dr. Malcolm Perry performed the trach
at Parkland Hospital.
The trach wound was not measured from any known body landmark,
true....but these two holes, quite obviously, do NOT equate to an
angle through the body of "45 to 60 degrees downward".
The "pinky probe" is barely mentioned in Humes' Warren Commission
testimony at all. (There's one reference to "attempting to probe the
wound with your finger" in Dr. Humes' lengthy interview with the WC.
But nothing more is said about it.)
I did find this one reference (below) to "approximately 45 degrees" in
Humes' WC testimony (but the number "60" never once is uttered):
ARLEN SPECTER -- "Could you state for the record an approximation of
the angle of decline?"
DR. JAMES HUMES -- "Mathematics is not my forte. Approximately 45
degrees from the horizontal."
Then, of course, there is the following testimony from Dr. Humes,
which positively destroys his other "approximately 45 degrees"
statement regarding the "angle of decline":
"This missile, to the best of our ability to ascertain, struck no
bones as it traversed the President's body. .... We concluded that
this missile traversed the President's body and made its exit through
the wound observed by the physicians at Parkland Hospital and later
extended as a tracheotomy wound." -- Dr. James J. Humes; 1964
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/humes.htm
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9f9db2052413d59d
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DVP -- For the third time....WHERE in Dealey Plaza could an assassin
have been located to have caused such a steep entry wound {of 45 to 60
degrees downward} on JFK's back?
CTer -- Who cares?
DVP -- This is a perfect illustration of what CTers are famous for
doing; i.e., "isolating" a single piece of useless and obviously-wrong
evidence in the JFK case and then claiming it "proves conspiracy".
That CTer doesn't "care" that a downward angle that steep into
Kennedy's back was utterly impossible (given the time when JFK was
shot on Elm Street, even if some theorists want to place the shot all
the way back to Zapruder frame 186, like Mark Fuhrman does).
Only rabid assassination conspiracy theorists would look at the sum
total of the evidence in this case and then decide that Dr. Humes' "45-
degree" wild guess had any merit in the final analysis. Especially in
light of Humes' own admission when he said "mathematics is not my
forte".
Many CTers want to hold Humes to a "45-degree" standard, with a back
wound that did not transit at all. But in the final analysis, when ALL
the evidence was known to Humes and assessed while using some basic
common sense for accompaniment, such a "45-degree" standard is not
reasonable at all (especially when the shooting location of any "45-
degree" or "60-degree" gunshot wound to JFK's back is
considered....which, of course, is a totally-non-existent location).
But the pinky probe estimate of Dr. Humes seems to be good enough
evidence for some CTers. Nothing else needs to be examined evidently.
Crazy.
Via such "isolation" of unconfirmed evidence, some conspiracists must
also believe that LBJ had a heart attack on 11/22/63; and they must
also believe that a Secret Service agent was killed on that day as
well.
And they possibly also believe that Charles Brehm was standing on
Commerce Street instead of Elm Street during the assassination. After
all, Brehm DID say in a filmed interview that's where he and his 5-
year-old boy were located during the shooting; so it must be true. I
guess Zapruder's film is fake after all. ~smirk~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/690b39c792300131
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7e70b829247b4a49
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CTer -- Theoretically, if a bullet had deflected off an overhead
object it could create a downward 45-degree angle.
DVP -- Yeah, I can see your point. Let me try to re-construct the
shooting:
Oswald shoots....
The wildly-off-course bullet collides with a TWA Boeing 707 jetliner
having just departed from Dallas' DFW International....
The bullet then dives back down toward Dealey Plaza and President
Kennedy in the Presidential limousine (the bullet's intended target in
the first place)....
A 45-degree (or maybe even 60-degree) downward entry wound is achieved
on JFK's back via the DBT (Deflecting Boeing Theory).
NOTE -- The Trans World Airlines four-engined jetliner made a safe
emergency landing back at the airport, by the way, after having its
fuel lines severed by Oswald's stray 6.5mm missile.
No chickens, wild geese, or hamsters were harmed in the making of the
above fictional tale. 129 irate San Francisco-bound TWA passengers
were mighty annoyed, however. ;)
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CTer -- The conspirators were the ones who "investigated" this case.
DVP -- And even if the above pro-CT assumption was true, would that
fact make the unbelievably-reckless "Multi-Gunmen/One-Patsy Conspiracy
Plot" any more sane, rational, and (above all) realistically doable
from a Pre-November 22nd point-of-view?
Or don't you think that ANY of the many non-Oswald bullets could have
had even a prayer of ending up in the hands of a "non-plotter"?
And, moreover, why would any Patsy-arranging "plotters" have thought
that all of the non-LHO bullets would necessarily NOT be seen by
anyone outside the confines of their covert plot?
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CTer -- Marina Oswald did NOT take ALL of the backyard photos.
DVP -- So, per some CTers, Marina did take ONE backyard picture; but
this evidently wasn't good enough for these brain-dead plotters
attempting to frame their patsy.
No, they wanted MORE pics of Lee Harvey holding his guns in the same
Neely Street backyard environment. So, they decide to "fake" two (or
three) more of the exact same type photos, showing the exact same
thing.
The next logical question is a short one....
Why?
-------------------------------------------
CTer (of the "hip" persuasion evidently) -- Hate to break it to you,
dude, that the Bugliosi book has thoroughly been debunked by recent
books such as "Ultimate Sacrifice" and "Farewell To Justice". The only
purpose, as I can tell, is to line Mr. Bugliosi's pockets.
DVP -- Hate to break it to YOU, "dude" --- but you don't have the
slightest idea what you're talking about. Nor, evidently, do you have
the slightest idea who it is you just bashed via your ridiculously-
absurd "lining his pockets" comment.
And you must be high on copious quantities of Goofy Conspiracy Gas if
you think for one minute that Ms. Mellen's hunk of pro-Garrison tripe
can even begin to "thoroughly debunk" ANYTHING written by Vincent T.
Bugliosi. That's like comparing Bob Uecker (Mellen) to Johnny Bench
(Bugliosi). Your "Farewell To Justice" comment is absolutely
hilarious! So I thank you for the giggle, if for nothing else.
www.amazon.com/VINCENT-BUGLIOSI/lm/2KJFLIXOW29IX/ref=cm_lmt_dtpa_f_3_rdssss0/002-2065385-6525668
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b3a8181c73cfa095
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- Many people smelled gunpowder all through Dealey Plaza. Oswald
was six stories above. How could this be?
DVP -- I don't have the full answer to every single last question
connected with the JFK murder case. But I do know that the following
pieces of pro-conspiracy craziness don't exactly "add up" to the type
of "plot" that many CTers seem to believe (including Oliver Stone, via
his 1991 motion picture).....
1.) A team of assassins uses guns that emit gobs of smoke and
lingering gunpowder odors even in a stiff breeze.
2.) They don't use any silencing equipment (per most CT accounts).
3.) They fire multiple bullets into the body of the one target from a
variety of locations, making the "One Patsy" plan incredibly difficult
to pull off (without God's help).
4.) And they allow their only "patsy" to wander around at his leisure
at exactly 12:30 PM when the President is being shot. Therefore,
Oswald is free to garner for himself a potentially ironclad alibi to
clear himself later.
Could these plotters have BEEN any more reckless and silly? I wonder.
But if CT-Kooks say it's so, I guess we must listen. (Just don't wager
any cash on such looniness.)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2856a17a96dbc808
-------------------------------------------
CTer -- No conspirator is going to worry about details like that
{e.g., the gunsmoke and the smell of gunpowder}.
DVP -- LOL. Yeah, why worry about such trivialities when you need only
Oswald fingered for the crime? A crime which is, per CT accounts,
being pulled off by this gun over here on the Grassy Knoll which is
making noise, emitting enough odor to be noticed many yards away for
several minutes after the shooting event, and is producing enough
smoke to be seen MINUTES later by a passenger on one of the press
busses at the VERY END of the motorcade.
And why worry about pelting JFK with frontal shots either (within the
context of a "One Patsy In The Depository" plot)? Obviously, these
grand plotters didn't give a damn and couldn't have cared less about
the consequences of riddling the one target with several non-Oswald
bullets from the opposite direction of the Patsy's Perch.
And why worry about WHERE your one patsy is located at 12:30 when you
need the bum on the 6th Floor firing a gun? Let's just allow the goof
to wander around loose, gaining a possible (probable in fact) alibi.
Great plan there.
Sure...why worry about those pesky little meaningless details of your
Patsy Plot? These things are all just trivial tidbits that don't
matter. Just go ahead and fire with all barrels, from all DP
locations, with loud noises and smoke and odorous powders that linger
and linger in places where it's impossible for your one patsy to be
located.
It won't matter anyway (per CT-Kooks) -- because the "evil Government"
will take over and smooth out all the wrinkles that were created by
this band of needlessly-reckless conspirators who put together a
Presidential assassination plot that would only have been assembled by
a team of total morons.
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/c0189f6da4be3133
eca...@tx.rr.com
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> CTer -- Marina Oswald did NOT take ALL of the backyard photos.
>
> DVP -- So, per some CTers, Marina did take ONE backyard picture; but
> this evidently wasn't good enough for these brain-dead plotters
> attempting to frame their patsy.
>
> No, they wanted MORE pics of Lee Harvey holding his guns in the same
> Neely Street backyard environment. So, they decide to "fake" two (or
> three) more of the exact same type photos, showing the exact same
> thing.
>
> The next logical question is a short one....
>
> Why?
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> CTer (of the "hip" persuasion evidently) -- Hate to break it to you,
> dude, that the Bugliosi book has thoroughly been debunked by recent
> books such as "Ultimate Sacrifice" and "Farewell To Justice". The only
> purpose, as I can tell, is to line Mr. Bugliosi's pockets.
>
> DVP -- Hate to break it to YOU, "dude" --- but you don't have the
> slightest idea what you're talking about. Nor, evidently, do you have
> the slightest idea who it is you just bashed via your ridiculously-
> absurd "lining his pockets" comment.
>
> And you must be high on copious quantities of Goofy Conspiracy Gas if
> you think for one minute that Ms. Mellen's hunk of pro-Garrison tripe
> can even begin to "thoroughly debunk" ANYTHING written by Vincent T.
> Bugliosi. That's like comparing Bob Uecker (Mellen) to Johnny Bench
> (Bugliosi). Your "Farewell To Justice" comment is absolutely
> hilarious! So I thank you for the giggle, if for nothing else.
>
>
> www.amazon.com/VINCENT-BUGLIOSI/lm/2KJFLIXOW29IX/ref=cm_lmt_dtpa_f_3_...
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/b3a8181c73cfa095
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> CTer -- Many people smelled gunpowder all through Dealey Plaza. Oswald
> was six stories above. How could this be?
>
> DVP -- I don't have the full answer to every single last question
> connected with the JFK murder case. But I do know that the following
> pieces of pro-conspiracy craziness don't exactly "add up" to the type
> of "plot" that many CTers seem to believe (including Oliver Stone, via
> his 1991 motion picture).....
>
> 1.) A team of assassins uses guns that emit gobs of smoke and
> lingering gunpowder odors even in a stiff breeze.
>
> 2.) They don't use any silencing equipment (per most CT accounts).
>
> 3.) They fire multiple bullets into the body of the one target from a
> variety of locations, making the "One Patsy" plan incredibly difficult
> to pull off (without God's help).
>
> 4.) And they allow their only "patsy" to wander around at his leisure
> at exactly 12:30 PM when the President is being shot. Therefore,
> Oswald is free to garner for himself a potentially ironclad alibi to
> clear himself later.
>
> Could these plotters have BEEN any more reckless and silly? I wonder.
>
> But if CT-Kooks say it's so, I guess we must listen. (Just don't wager
> any cash on such
>
Great points DVP.. Especially this one:
"This is a perfect illustration of what
CTers are famous for doing; i.e.,
"isolating" a single piece of useless
and obviously-wrong evidence in the JFK
case and then claiming it "proves
conspiracy."
Thanx,
MR ;~D 0324Mar1607