Oswald or Lovelady in the doorway?
Mark The Shark
to recall Lovelady claiming he was on the steps, but he showed the WC the shirt
he was wearing that day, and it doesn't match the doorway man. But the doorway
man's shirt matched Oswald's.
Can anyhone shed any light?
Gil Jesus
to the FBI or WC.
On Page 159 of Robert Groden's book "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald, Oswald
is shown in the police station passing Lovelady, who is there seated. Lovelady
has on the same shirt as the man in the doorway and, according to this
photograph, Lovelady's shirt and Oswald's shirt were different, not the same.
"This crime was beyond the capability of any one person, Oswald or anyone else.
And on that basis, there was a conspiracy."--Harold Weisberg
Walt
"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021114191312...@mb-mc.aol.com...
> Mark, I believe that it was Lovelady in the doorway. He showed the wrong
shirt
> to the FBI or WC.
> On Page 159 of Robert Groden's book "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald,
Oswald
> is shown in the police station passing Lovelady, who is there seated.
Gil, the photo you refer to looks fake to me.......
It looks like Lovelady has been added to the picture....
Question.... Doesn't it seem strange that Lovelady would be just sitting
there at a desk ????
Walt
Martin Shackelford
matter was resolved by the 1970s.
It was Lovelady in the doorway. An FBI report erroneously stated that
the red and white striped shirt he wore to the interview was the one he
wore on Nov. 22, but photos and films from the day clearly show this was
incorrect, yet people still cite the FBI report as though it were
Lovelady himself making the claim.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
nonsensical theory.
The "photo" of Lovelady waiting to be questioned at the police station
as Oswald was brought in was a still from an NBC newsfilm broadcast that
day. Some published copies may have been touched up for publication, but
the newsfilm itself also exists, and has been widely used in
documentaries. It's authenticity has never been questioned, nor has
there ever been any reason to question it--too many people saw the live
broadcast and the taped re-broadcasts (taped, by the way, for archival
purposes).
Martin
charles wallace
I'm still unconvinced that it is Lovelady instead of Oswald. The
reasons I say that follows. I believe witness statements and Oswald
himself places him in that vicinity at that time but inside the
building. The fact that Oswald himself is not reported to have stated
that he went outside means very little in this case IMO. If one stands
on the front top landing right outside the entrance of the TSBD looking
down Houston, Lovelady was seen on the leftside of the stairs in later
photographs. On the rightside is the person seen whose identity is
questioned. The open unbuttoned part of the shirt and the sagging
tee-shirt that is seen matches Oswald's appearance when he was arrested.
The photograph that is printed on page 373 of 'Pictures of the Pain' by
Richard B. Trask that is apparently taken from the Wiegman film shows
two people of interest. Maintaining the aforementioned position of
looking down Houston there is a person on the left that appears to be
Lovelady. The other questionable person in the photograph that is also
in the Altgens photograph would be where you would be standing as
previously mentioned looking down Houston. The blow-ups of Altgen's
photograph shows comparable facial features to both Oswald and Lovelady.
One should not use this comparison alone as the deciding factor. For
instance there are several frames in the Zapruder film that I would have
to declare that it does not look like Kennedy. Of course even though
the camera has mottled his face I know it is Kennedy. Again I say I'm
not so sure that it is Lovelady we see in Altgen's photograph.
Regards, Charles
"He didn't even have the satisfaction of being killed for civil
rights......Its--It had to be some silly little communist". Mrs.
Kennedy, November 22, 1963; "I'm just a patsy". Lee H. Oswald,
November, 1963.
President Kennedy was assassinated " as a result of the hatred
and bitterness that has been injected into the life of our nation by
bigots." Chief Justice Earl Warren, November 22, 1963. Dallas Morning
News
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/JFKAssassins
Steve
wrote:
This has been gone over and over and over. It's Lovelady in the
doorway.
Steve
wrote:
>Gil, the photo you refer to looks fake to me.......
>
>It looks like Lovelady has been added to the picture....
>
>Question.... Doesn't it seem strange that Lovelady would be just sitting
>there at a desk ????
>
>Walt
As usual, Walt Cakebread, the pillar of paranoia, throws in the "fake"
picture crap.
Steve
wallace) wrote:
>Martin,
>I'm still unconvinced that it is Lovelady instead of Oswald. The
>reasons I say that follows.
Snip....
The goddamn picture doesn't even look like Oswald. The person however
DOES look like Lovelady. You guys never give up.
Walt
"Steve" <T...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:8atdtu0m1g86uf4sj...@4ax.com...
There's nothing "paranoid" about rendering an opinion about a photo..... It
looks like Lovelady has been added to the photo to me....
I realize you have a difficult time rendering an opinion that requires the
use of your eyes and head ....It difficult to use either, when yer heads in
yer ass.....
Walt
Ritchie Linton
> On Page 159 of Robert Groden's book "The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald, Oswald
> is shown in the police station passing Lovelady, who is there seated.
####
####
Good for you=everybody got that? See the big 'bald spot' on the crown
of Lovelady's head? Its even more obvious than the fact that he was
wearing the striped shirt he wore that day when the FBI asked him to
attend later wearing the same shirt=which we know he did.
Anybody got any photos of Oswald displaying such a bald spot on his
head?
Oswald was just innocent, you know=that doesn't tell us very much
about who actually killed Kennedy=but it tells us a lot about who did
not.Its a good place to start with the process of elimination,as the
field of available suspects narrows like it does when we talk about
who could have planted the SB found at Parkland=process of elimination
of suspect being the norm in murder case investigation.
Martin Shackleford argues that Oswald was actually downstairs in the
Domino room rather than on the front steps in the Altgens photo=but
either way Oswald is still just innocent.
Ritchie
Gil Jesus
less, that proves that Oswald was not in the doorway ?
Gil Jesus
mentioned with the Altgen's picture of the man in the doorway.
Then tell me there not the same man.
C'mon now , some things are obvious.
Walt
> Why would Groden, a Conspiracy Theorist, publish a fake photograph, and
one no
> less, that proves that Oswald was not in the doorway ?
>
the photo that appears on page 159 of TSFLHO. The photo on page 159 shows
Oswald in handcuffs being led past Lovelady who "APPEARS" to be seated at a
desk. In my opinion Lovelady's image appears to have been inserted into
the photo.
Walt
Steve
wrote:
>I realize you have a difficult time rendering an opinion that requires the
>use of your eyes and head ....It difficult to use either, when yer heads in
>yer ass.....
>
>Walt
>
Walt has a fascination with the human rectal system since he's been
violated by the LaFontaines so many times. Time to bend over again,
Walt.
O.H. LEE
"Walt" <Papakoc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20021117052433...@mb-mn.aol.com...
>> Why would Groden, a Conspiracy Theorist, publish a fake photograph, and
>one no
>> less, that proves that Oswald was not in the doorway ?
>>
>Gil I believe you are confusing the Altgen's "Man in the Doorway" photo
with
>the photo that appears on page 159 of TSFLHO. The photo on page 159 shows
>Oswald in handcuffs being led past Lovelady who "APPEARS" to be seated at
a
>desk. In my opinion Lovelady's image appears to have been inserted into
>the photo.
>
>Walt
Hi Walt.
While I am 95% certain in my own mind that it was indeed Lovelady captured
standing on the TSBD stairway in the Altgens photo, you bring up a curious
point that I never thought of before. Yes, I have this book of Groden's,
and I recall seeing this photo. Anyway, I wonder what the odds were that
following his arrest, Oswald would be in such close proximity to Lovelady
that they would be able to be captured in the same picture? Hell, did the
DPD normally process potential witnesses at a desk that suspects were paraded
by? Seems just a tad curious to me.
Regards,
O.H. LEE (Gary)
>
>
>> "This crime was beyond the capability of any one person, Oswald or anyone
>else.
>> And on that basis, there was a conspiracy."--Harold Weisberg
>
>
O.H. LEE (ga...@aol.com)
Walt
"O.H. LEE" <ga...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3dd8...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
Thanks Gary,...That's my thinking also ..... and please take a look at the
photo on page 159 and see if it looks like Lovelady has been inserted into
that photo.
P.S. I remember seeing a photo that was snapped infront of the TSBD
shortly after the assassination. That photo was taken by a photographer who
was behind Lovelady and it showed Lovelady looking toward the railroad
yards.....just as he is seen in the photo on page 159....... His image
could easily have been lifted from that photo and inserted in the other.
Just as Oswald's face was lifted from the photo taken on the streets of New
Orleans and added to the fake B.Y. photos CE 133B and 133C......
Walt
Martin Shackelford
for study purposes. Last night, I applied it to a point in the "Man in
the Doorway" controversy.
Some have argued that Lovelady was sitting down in the doorway.
They were right.
Others, myself included, have argued that Lovelady was standing.
We were also right.
The films show that Lovelady was initially sitting on the steps in the
doorway. As the President passes, he stands, and remains standing as the
shots are fired.
The films:
Tina Towner film of limo passing the Depository and proceeding down Elm.
(Lovelady is seated on the steps)
F. Mark Bell film of limousine passing the Depository.
(Lovelady is rising)
(this is the chronological order--the video reverses them for purposes
of continuity).
John Martin film of limo passing the Depository.
(Lovelady is standing)a
Mal Couch and Dave Weigman films, taken during the shots.
(Lovelady is standing)
These would be during the period when Altgens took his photo.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Martin Shackelford
It is WFAA-TV footage. Copies were all over the place right away. Nobody
inserted Lovelady. The network distributed it widely.
Martin
Mark The Shark
>could easily have been lifted from that photo and inserted in the other.
>Just as Oswald's face was lifted from the photo taken on the streets of New
>Orleans and added to the fake B.Y. photos CE 133B and 133C......
Okay, now you're telling me something I didn't know...the image of Oswald's
head used in the backyard photos comes from a known photo? Has it been
published? I'd love to see it.
Steve
<msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>It isn't a photo, Walt.
>It is WFAA-TV footage. Copies were all over the place right away. Nobody
>inserted Lovelady. The network distributed it widely.
>
>Martin
>
Don't waste your time, Martin. Walt is in a world of his own
surrounded by male anatomy.
O.H. LEE
Understood Martin. But this still seems like terribly shoddy police procedure
at best. Should potential witnesses have been sequestered or processed at
a desk in a room that suspects in that very crime were paraded past as they
were brought in? Shouldn't these material witnesses have been processed in
a room far removed from where suspects were taken? What if, instead of Lovelady,
this had been a Tippit killing witness that Oswald was paraded by? Don't
you think this would have hopelessly tarnished any line-up by having such
a witness see this person hauled in in handcuffs and then seeing them appear
in the line-up? It would be hard not to know who the arrested suspect was
at the line-up if he was paraded right by you in handcuffs a couple of hours
earlier, no? It just seems as though any witnesses should have been processed
quite apart from where Oswald was paraded, that's all. Otherwise, any line-ups
would be hopelessly tainted.
Regards,
O.H. LEE
O.H. LEE (ga...@aol.com)
John McAdams
The "image of Oswald's head used in the backyard photos" is different in
each of the three photos. And it "comes from" those photos -- not from
anywere else.
..John
Walt
"Mark The Shark" <marksh...@cs.comedy> wrote in message
news:20021118124228...@mb-fz.news.cs.com...
Hello Mark.....Someone was filming Oswald while he was handing out leaflets
on the streets of N.O.
There are many photos that have been produced from that movie. Take a look
at the photo at the top of page 75 of Groden's "TSFLHO"..... That face is
very simular to the one that was added to the man in the fake BY photo CE
133B and 133C..... ( Notice that I did NOT include CE 133A .....CE 133A is
the authentic photo that Marina snapped )
Walt
Ritchie Linton
> It isn't a photo, Walt.
> It is WFAA-TV footage. Copies were all over the place right away. Nobody
> inserted Lovelady. The network distributed it widely.
>
> Martin
####
Either way=the AP network distributed the Altgens photo(possibly of
Oswald as I argue) and the WFAA-TV footage distributed the Lovelelady
bald spot "widely" as you say.Either way Oswald was still innocent
whether he was in the Domino Room as you say,OR photographed BEHIND
all the other witnesses who saw Lovelady's bald spot in front of them
as they testified.It comes to the same thing either way=Oswald was
just inocent.Oswald's mere innocence takes him out of the story=except
for the simple role we know he played by the incriminating evidence
found."I am just a patsy" holds true even if Oswald was in the Domino
room instead of the doorway.
Martin Shackelford
Lovelady.
Martin
O.H. LEE
Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net> wrote:
>There would be no reason for Oswald to be in a lineup viewed by
>Lovelady.
Of course not Martin. Which is why I wrote "what if, instead of Lovelady,
this had been a Tippit killing witness"..... Do you see the problem then?
Or do you think that care was taken to parade Oswald only past known associates
that early in the game?
Regards,
O.H. LEE
O.H. LEE (ga...@aol.com)
Walt
"Ritchie Linton" <rli...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:d0a32e7f.02111...@posting.google.com...
Rich Linton wrote: "Oswald's mere innocence takes him out of the
story=".... You're absolutely right Richie...and therein lies the
conundrum for 99% of the researchers...
If Oswald is eliminated as a suspect then everybody is forced to return to
square one ..... The government has entwined Oswald in the case too deeply
and it's nearly impossible to discuss the case without involving Oswald.
THAT'S the primary reason that many people like Shackleford are so intent on
discrediting any information that supports the Altgens photo of Oswald on
the front steps of the TSBD. They understand that if it is in fact Oswald
standing there, then the whole phoney case against Oswald is smashed beyond
repair......
Because he simply could not have been on he sixth floor and on the steps at
the same instant......
Walt
dcwi...@netscape.net
eating lunch with Norman & Jarman circa 12:30. Truly (Biffle stories in '63 &
'64) & Baker (1st Day Evidence recounting) ran into O on the 1st floor just
after the shooting; meanwhile, Euins (as per Underwood & Biffle) saw only one
black man upstairs at the window, Brennan (as per McCloy's questioning of
Williams) saw only Williams, & Patrolman Hill's "2nd window from the end"
witness saw only one man on the 5th floor, too. All 3 witnesses thot Williams
was the shooter. He was not, but their singling out of him proves that Norman &
Jarman were not there at 12:30. And it was you who showed me (from Curry's
book) how DPD & co. (probably Dallas SS) altered photos....
dw
Martin Shackelford
Lovelady expected a suspect would be brought in at that time.
Ritchie Linton
> Rich Linton wrote: "Oswald's mere innocence takes him out of the
> story=".... You're absolutely right Richie...and therein lies the
> conundrum for 99% of the researchers...
>
> If Oswald is eliminated as a suspect then everybody is forced to return to
> square one ..... The government has entwined Oswald in the case too deeply
> and it's nearly impossible to discuss the case without involving Oswald.
>
> THAT'S the primary reason that many people like Shackleford are so intent on
> discrediting any information that supports the Altgens photo of Oswald on
> the front steps of the TSBD. They understand that if it is in fact Oswald
> standing there, then the whole phoney case against Oswald is smashed beyond
> repair......
> Because he simply could not have been on he sixth floor and on the steps at
> the same instant......
+++
+++
Bingo...either way.Two failed theories either way=Oswald was not 'with
others' on the 6th floor any more than Oswald was there alone=and for
all the same reasons.Of course its clear that someone else still shot
and killed Kenedy=and the question then becomes what options are left
by the evidence once you eliminate Oswald as a suspect either way? The
process of elimination narrows suspect rather than enlarging into
absurd "massive conspiracy"=as you appear to appreciate.As you
eliminate Oswald either way applying process=what does the narrowness
of suspect leave you with?As you know I have asked this before about
who could have cleared security at Parkland in order to plant the SB
found as it was found.Eliminating implausible suspects according to
evidence is the correct way to proceed...waddya' get from what you
say?
> Walt