Garrison witnesses (was Ferrie and Del Valle . . .)
Dreitzes
>From: harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove)
>Date: 3/15/99 1:18 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36f0a44d...@news.enteract.com>
>
>
>I don't have NEARLY as much time for this as Reitzes does, but I'm trying to
>keep a list of all the witnesses related to the Garrison/Shaw case that he
>trashes. The list so far is woefully incomplete, but here 'tis, in his own
>words:
>
>1. "Perry Russo" ... "taken seriously by few."
>
See Lambert, *False Witness,* for the most thorough and well documented
analysis of Russo's story, including previously unpublished interview
statements and grand jury testimony. His own words prior to Shaw's arrest prove
his later allegations false.
>2. "Vernon Bundy" ... "story makes no sense" ... "had been thoroughly
> coached."
>
Identified "Oswald" in his ORIGINAL statement to the DA's office as a guy named
"Pete." Described Shaw quite differently. Did NOT mention anything about a
limp.
>3-6. "Corrie Collns, John Manchester, Henry Palmer, William Dunn" ... "their
> identification of Shaw is undoubtedly the weakest part of their
> testimony."
Anyone who still thinks the Clinton witnesses have a leg to stand on, kindly
see Lambert, pp. 185-200.
>7-8. "Dr. and Mrs. Nicholas Tadin" ... "their testimony's potency was
> somewhat reduced."
There is nothing in their testimony I know of that can be impeached. The jury
did not believe them, however, because they only became known to the DA's
office within hours previous to their testimony.
>9. "Raymond Broshears" ... "credibility is an open question."
Broshears claims that he once had sex with "Leon Oswald," who resembled Lee
Harvey Oswald but whom Broshears did not believe was actually Lee Harvey
Oswald. Is this an Oswald look-alike? Even John Armstrong has never publicly
touched the question.
>10. "Victor Marchetti" ... "credibility remains questionable."
Marchetti never claimed to have any first-hand knowledge of Shaw being a CIA
agent or the Agency interfering in the Garrison investigation. Even if all he
said was true -- which, yes, remains questionable -- he only would prove that
the CIA was concerned about Garrison's probe for undisclosed reasons -- and
even John McAdams has said he'd be surprised if CIA HADN'T been concerned about
Garrison for one reason or another. (Castro assassination plots? Mafia
collaborations? These aren't reasons to fear some New Orleans DA questioning
anti-Castro Cuban exiles about their activities of 1959-63?)
>11. "Robert Tanenbaum ... "allegations remain unsubstantiated."
I'm afraid that's a fact, unless Jim has something to contradict it. If there's
substantiation for Tanenbaum's claims to have seen documents linking the CIA to
attempts to sabotage the Garrison investigation, no one has yet come up with
any.
>12. "Vince Salandria" ... "simple paranoia."
As I've pointed out before to Jim, who simply doesn't care to hear it,
Salandria HIMSELF described Garrison's behavior as well as his own in the late
'60s as paranoid. He said flatly that he and Garrison believed anyone critical
of their investigation to be CIA agents. Sound familiar?
>13. "Aura Lee" ... "this report is uncomfirmed."
The woman, whose last name Jim Hargrove cannot even cite, was not Clay Shaw's
secretary as third-hand hearsay claimed her to be. Shaw's REAL and ONLY
secretary of nineteen (!) years, Goldie Naomi Moore, testified at his trial and
refuted the claims attributed to "Aura Lee [LNU]." I've posted her testimony
here.
>14. "William George Gaudet" ... "murky."
Refresh my memory, Jim -- what was Gaudet a witness to in the first place? Even
DiEugenio admits that Shaw was not the ITM executive who leased the ITM space
to Gaudet.
>15. "Robert Morrow" ... "not alive to substantiate the author's story," [that
refers to Tracy Barnes, BTW] and,
>in the post immediately above, "see what the source is."
The title of his book to the contrary, Morrow had NO first-hand knowledge
related to Clay Shaw OR the JFK assassination. Everything he claims to know
allegedly came from CIA employee Tracy Barnes. Did Barnes even know Shaw?
Hello? Jim? Lisa Pease? Bill Davy? Anyone? Any corroboration for Morrow's story
whatsoever?
>
>16. "Mrs. Jessie Parker" ... "threatened."
>
She admitted under oath that when she was first brought by the DA's people to
see Clay Shaw during jury selection, she DENIED he was the "Clay Bertrand" who
allegedly visited the Eastern Airport VIP Room in 1966. That's a fact.
>17. "Elizabeth McCarthy" ... "no formal training."
McCarthy claimed that a "Clay Bertrand" signature was in Shaw's handwriting.
She was flown in the night before the trial because Garrison apparently
couldn't find a single "expert" in New Orleans to confirm that. The jury
believed the defense's witness, who demonstrated with visual aids his precise
reasons for ruling out Shaw as the person who signed the name "Clay Bertrand"
-- assuming that Shaw would be stupid enough to even be using that alias in
December 1966. How confident of McCarthy's testimony was the prosecution?
Here's a hint: During his closing arguments, Assistant DA Jim Alcock said he
suspected that Shaw would have probably disguised his handwriting in this
instance anyway. Look it up, folks -- it's in the record.
>18. "James Hardiman" ... "based solely on his memory."
>
Anyone want to dispute that the claim that mail was delivered to a "Clem
Bertrand" in 1966 was based solely on mail carrier James Hardiman's memory?
Anyone? Meanwhile, Hardiman's relevant testimony is reprinted in my post, "Who
Speaks for Clay Shaw?" Does it inspire any confidence in Mr. Hardiman's memory?
>And, since he is sort of becoming an eyewitness with his many interviews:
>
>19. "Dick Russell" ... "Mr. Russell should know better than to rely on such
>sources."
>
Than Garrison himself? Yes, he should. And so should the rest of us.
>And, of course:
>
>20. "Jim Garrison" ... [I don't have Reitzes' direct slams at hand--my hard
>drive isn't big enough to hold them all--
How about this: Not a single word anyone says -- whether an eyewitness to a
crime, a New Orleans DA, or the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court -- should be
taken as fact without solid corroboration.
Anyone have a problem with that?
>but I thought his posting of claims
>that Garrison was a child molester kind of said it all.
>
>--Jim Hargrove
Jim knows I've never previously endorsed any such claims and I challenge him to
prove me wrong about that. Hell, I challenge him to prove me wrong about
anything in the above post or in my article, "Who Speaks for Clay Shaw?" at the
URL below. However, where that last mattter is concerned, I'd refer folks to
Patricia Lambert, *False Witness,* pp. 232-8.
Now, why does Jim's list of "credible witnesses" to some unspecified fact not
include Charles Spiesel, whose testimony was given considerable weight in Jim
Alcock's closing arguments? Why does the list not include Edward Whalen, who
told Jim Garrison he'd been personally hired by SHAW AND FERRIE to MURDER
GARRISON? (*ATTOTA,* 1988 paperback ed., pp. 141-4). As God is my witness, I
have not a shred of evidence with which to refute Whalen's claim. Why does the
list not include Jules R. Kimble, who told Garrison he'd met Shaw through
Ferrie and had first-hand knowledge that both men had CIA connections? Again, I
cannot refute Mr. Kimble's statements at this time; why doesn't Jim Hargrove
use him as a witness to Shaw's alleged evil-doings? Garrison certainly did --
at least in 1988, anyway (*ATTOTA,* pp. 136-9). Where are all the other
witnesses Garrison had? I don't think Hargrove's even trying.
Dave Reitzes
"Who Speaks for Clay Shaw?"
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shaw1.htm
For my series on Lee Harvey Oswald, spotlighting the research and theory of
John Armstrong, please see:
gopher://freenet.akron.oh.us:70/11/SIGS/JFK/Only/JA/DR
Jim Hargrove
CIA's Words Without End...
--Jim Hargrove
Jim Hargrove
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ferrie and del Valle not only knew each other, but they were also
partners in "business" ventures:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
From Dick Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much," pp. 292-293:
Eladio del Valle: Nicknamed "Yito," del Valle had been a young Cuban
congressman and city councilman in Havana during the final years of the
Batista dictatorship. According to several sources, he had also piled up a
small fortune smuggling in American cigarettes and other contraband--in
partnership with Florida mobster Santos Trafficante, Jr. [19] As Castro
approached the capital, del Valle fled into exile, where he bought a Miami
grocery store as a front for various operations.
"Now there was a gun for hire," I was told in 1975 by Al
Tarabocchia, then a Hispanic investigator for the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee. "Anything that had to do with smuggling, gun-running, del Vall
was with it. Both a bagman and a hit man, mainly involved with people from
the Batista regime."[20]
As early as 1960, del Valle was reportedly working with a New
Orleans pilot, David Ferrie, in flying clandestine missions over Cuba.[21]
In January 1961, shortly before the Bay of Pigs invasion, del Valle told the
_New York Daily News_ that he had a fighting force of "8,500 men in Cuba and
a skeleton force of about 200 working in Miami and Central America." [22] By
1963 he was also a leader of the Committee to Free Cuba, or "Cuba Libra".
[23]
On the night of February 22, 1967, del Valle's body was discovered
by Miami police, sprawled across the floor of his flaming-red Cadillac. He
had been brutally beaten, shot above the heart, and his head chopped open.
He was being sought for questioning at the time by Jim Garrison's
investigative staff. [24]
David Fenie: The same night del Valle died, so did his old friend
Ferrie. He had already been questioned once by Garrison about his possible
knowledge of the assassination. Ferrie's body was found in his New Orleans
partment, alongside two typed notes suggesting suicide. The coroner's ruling
said "natural causes," though Garrison suspected he had been poisoned. [25]
[. . . .]
NOTES
19. Del Valle and Trafficante: Hincle and Turner, The Fish is Red, p. 206.
20. Tarabochia on del Valle: author's interview (December 19, 1975).
21. Del Valle/Ferrie: Hinckle and Turner, The Fish Is Red, p.206. See also
Robert Morrow, The Senator Must Die (Santa Monica, Calif.: Roundtable,
1988), pp.31, 73.
22. Del Valle's force: Joseph Martin and Phil Santora, "Countdown for
Castro," New York Daily News (January 8, 1961). A
23. Del Valle/Free Cuba: Anthony Summers, Conspiracy (New York: McGraw-Hill,
1980), p. 347.
24. Del Valle's death: ibid., p.498. See also Charles Golden, "Mystery Miami
Murder Linked to JFK Plot," National Enquirer (April 30, 1967).
25. Ferrie's death: Jim Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins (New York:
Sheridan Square Press, 1988), pp. 140-44.
-----------------------------------------
From Jim Garrison's _Playboy_ interview (10/67):
GARRISON: I think it's a lovely explanation. Now perhaps Mr. Liebeler
will intercede with the Department of Justice to release 25 pages of the
FBI report on Ferrie that have been classified top secret in the
Archives. Then we'll all have a chance to see for ourselves how clear it
is that Ferrie wasn't involved. Every scrap of evidence we've
uncovered--and it hasn't been difficult to find--reveals not only the
fact of his involvement but the reasons for it. His politics were
ultra-right wing, as I indicated earlier, but we've been able to
determine conclusively that his motivation was closer to that of the
Cuban exiles on the "operative" level--a burning hatred of Fidel Castro.
When Castro was a guerrilla in the Sierra Maestra, Ferrie is reliably
reported to have piloted guns for him. But in 1959, when Castro started
to show his Marxist colors, Ferrie appears to have felt betrayed and
reacted against Castro with all the bitterness of a suitor jilted by his
girl. From that moment on, he dedicated himself to Castro's overthrow
and began working with exile groups such as the Cuban Democratic
Revolutionary Front and planning airborne missions against Castro's
military installations. He was reported to have been paid up to $1500 a
mission by an ex-Batista official named Eladio del Valle. But I haven't
been able to check out Del Valle's involvement with Ferrie, because on
February 22, 1967, the same day Ferrie died in New Orleans, Del Valle's
head was split open by a hatchet and he was shot through the heart in
Miami. His murder is listed as unsolved by the Miami police. In any
case, Ferrie was recruited by the CIA, which employed hundreds of such
people in their network of anti-Castro exile activities. From the Bay of
Pigs on, he hated Kennedy as much as he did Castro; he felt that J.F.K.
had betrayed the invasion brigade by not sending in air cover. As the
events I described earlier led to a dŠtente between Russia and America,
and as the FBI--under Kennedy's orders--started cracking down on the
CIA-supported anti-Castro underground, Ferrie's hatred for Kennedy grew
more and more obsessive. Let me add here that this isn't just
speculation on my part; we have a number of reliable witnesses who were
privy to Ferrie's thoughts at this period and saw his hatred of Kennedy
develop into a driving force. After the assassination, as a matter of
fact, something psychologically curious happened to Ferrie: He dropped
out of anti-Castro exile activities, left the pay of the CIA and drifted
aimlessly while his emotional problems increased to the point where he
was totally dependent on huge doses of tranquilizers and barbiturates. I
don't know if Ferrie ever experienced any guilt about the assassination
itself; but in his last months, he was a tortured man.
PLAYBOY: After Ferrie's death, you called it "an apparent suicide," but
the coroner announced that the autopsy showed death was due to a
ruptured blood vessel at the base of the brain, which caused a fatal
hemorrhage. Have you subsequently resolved the discrepancy in your
points of view?
GARRISON: Dr. Nicholas Chetta is an excellent coroner, and inasmuch as
he found a total absence of traceable poisons or barbiturates in
Ferrie's system, I would respect his opinion that it was a natural
death. On the other hand, I can't help but lend a certain weight to two
suicide notes Ferrie left in his apartment, one of which said how sweet
it was to finally leave this wretched life. I suppose it could just be a
weird coincidence that the night Ferrie penned two suicide notes, he died
of natural causes.
------------------------
--Jim Hargrove
Jim Hargrove
I don't have NEARLY as much time for this as Reitzes does, but I'm trying to
keep a list of all the witnesses related to the Garrison/Shaw case that he
trashes. The list so far is woefully incomplete, but here 'tis, in his own
words:
1. "Perry Russo" ... "taken seriously by few."
2. "Vernon Bundy" ... "story makes no sense" ... "had been thoroughly
coached."
3-6. "Corrie Collns, John Manchester, Henry Palmer, William Dunn" ... "their
identification of Shaw is undoubtedly the weakest part of their
testimony."
7-8. "Dr. and Mrs. Nicholas Tadin" ... "their testimony's potency was
somewhat reduced."
9. "Raymond Broshears" ... "credibility is an open question."
10. "Victor Marchetti" ... "credibility remains questionable."
11. "Robert Tanenbaum ... "allegations remain unsubstantiated."
12. "Vince Salandria" ... "simple paranoia."
13. "Aura Lee" ... "this report is uncomfirmed."
14. "William George Gaudet" ... "murky."
15. "Robert Morrow" ... "not alive to substantiate the author's story," and,
in the post immediately above, "see what the source is."
16. "Mrs. Jessie Parker" ... "threatened."
17. "Elizabeth McCarthy" ... "no formal training."
18. "James Hardiman" ... "based solely on his memory."
And, since he is sort of becoming an eyewitness with his many interviews:
19. "Dick Russell" ... "Mr. Russell should know better than to rely on such
sources."
And, of course:
20. "Jim Garrison" ... [I don't have Reitzes' direct slams at hand--my hard
drive isn't big enough to hold them all--but I thought his posting of claims
Dreitzes
>Message-id: <36ecc74...@news.enteract.com>
>
>
>Reitzes will talk you... and talk you... to death. You cannot outlast him!
>He has all the time in the world. He HAS to win. That is his ASSIGNMENT!
>
>--Jim Hargrove
No, it's not an assignment. However, if anyone would care to pay me for posting
my own honest and reasonably well informed opinions as I've been doing for
about six months now, I'm open to offers. Just don't expect any favors: I say
what I want to say. As for those who imply or assert otherwise, that's their
problem.
A conspiracy did take the life of John F. Kennedy, folks -- a conspiracy
involving some very important officials of our government. However, Jim
Garrison didn't investigate that conspiracy; he made his own "conspiracy" up,
for whatever reasons he had. Why some people are more devoted to a New Orleans
DA than the truth in the JFK assassination is beyond me. Those who have eyes to
see and ears to hear, see Patricia Lambert's *False Witness* for the full
story.
Dave Reitzes
"Who Speaks for Clay Shaw?"
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shaw1.htm
Excerpts from the diary of Garrison investigator Tom Bethell:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/garrison.htm
Dreitzes
and time again; what choice does one have but to re-post one's responses?
Dave Reitzes
Excerpts from the diary of Garrison investigator Tom Bethell:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/garrison.htm
For my series on Lee Harvey Oswald, spotlighting the research and theory of
Dreitzes
>From: harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove)
>Date: 3/15/99 3:44 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36edc81...@news.enteract.com>
>
>
>CIA's Words Without End...
>
>--Jim Hargrove
Yup, I'm sure the CIA has nothing better to do with their time or money than
post to conspiracy newsgroups that only a handful of people read in the first
place. Then again, no one ever said the CIA were all that bright, except maybe
the Garrisonites, who can't seem to score any points against the Agency's
all-powerful anti-Garrison propaganda.
Whatever.
DR
Dreitzes
Subject: Re: Ferrie and del Valle worked together
From: drei...@aol.com (Dreitzes)
Date: 3/15/99 12:02 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <19990315000251...@ng-fz1.aol.com>
>Subject: Ferrie and del Valle worked together
>From: harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove)
>Date: 3/14/99 5:54 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <36ec3d1b...@news.enteract.com>
>
>
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Ferrie and del Valle not only knew each other, but they were also
> partners in "business" ventures:
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>From Dick Russell's "The Man Who Knew Too Much," pp. 292-293:
>
> Eladio del Valle: Nicknamed "Yito," del Valle had been a young Cuban
>congressman and city councilman in Havana during the final years of the
>Batista dictatorship. According to several sources, he had also piled up a
>small fortune smuggling in American cigarettes and other contraband--in
>partnership with Florida mobster Santos Trafficante, Jr. [19] As Castro
>approached the capital, del Valle fled into exile, where he bought a Miami
>grocery store as a front for various operations.
> "Now there was a gun for hire," I was told in 1975 by Al
>Tarabocchia, then a Hispanic investigator for the Senate Internal Security
>Subcommittee. "Anything that had to do with smuggling, gun-running, del Vall
>was with it. Both a bagman and a hit man, mainly involved with people from
>the Batista regime."[20]
> As early as 1960, del Valle was reportedly working with a New
>Orleans pilot, David Ferrie, in flying clandestine missions over Cuba.[21]
Notice that the above passage does not contain a single piece of evidence
linking Ferrie to Del Valle. Please also check out the endnote and see what the
source is. Now get out those books and see what THEIR sources are. Mr. Russell
should know better than to rely upon such sources.
>In January 1961, shortly before the Bay of Pigs invasion, del Valle told the
>_New York Daily News_ that he had a fighting force of "8,500 men in Cuba and
>a skeleton force of about 200 working in Miami and Central America." [22] By
>1963 he was also a leader of the Committee to Free Cuba, or "Cuba Libra".
>[23]
> On the night of February 22, 1967, del Valle's body was discovered
>by Miami police, sprawled across the floor of his flaming-red Cadillac. He
>had been brutally beaten, shot above the heart, and his head chopped open.
Please see the document recording the indictment of the suspect in Del Valle's
murder. Pay close attention to the murder weapon, which is described, and which
is not quite the same as Garrison and his followers allege:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/delvaD02.jpg
>He was being sought for questioning at the time by Jim Garrison's
>investigative staff. [24]
>
This is simply not true. Please look at the source citations for this
statement. Then -- again -- try to figure out what the original source actually
was. You won't find any contemporaneous source for the claim; you will only
find Garrison's claims AFTER Del Valle's murder was reported. It was THEN that
Garrison spoke of Del Valle for the very FIRST time in connection with the
assassination OR with David Ferrie.
> David Fenie: The same night del Valle died, so did his old friend
>Ferrie.
Source, please? I consider Dick Russell a fine and conscientious researcher,
but -- like many intelligent people -- he takes Garrison's assertions too
readily as fact.
>He had already been questioned once by Garrison about his possible
>knowledge of the assassination.
And, as Assistant DA James Alcock has admitted, the office turned up absolutely
NOTHING on him. Contrary to Garrison's later claims, the DA's office had no
intention of arresting Ferrie; they couldn't; they had not a whit of evidence
tying him to the assassination except the wild claims of Jack S. Martin.
>Ferrie's body was found in his New Orleans
>partment, alongside two typed notes suggesting suicide.
Suggesting suicide to SOME people. Why doesn't Mr. Hargrove post the PRIMARY
SOURCES -- the notes in their entirety -- so we here at the NG can be the
judge?
>The coroner's ruling
>said "natural causes," though Garrison suspected he had been poisoned. [25]
>
Of course, Russell got that wrong, but it doesn't much matter. If Jim Hargrove
or anyone else has evidence that Ferrie did not die of natural causes, now is
the time to present it.
>[. . . .]
>
>NOTES
>
>19. Del Valle and Trafficante: Hincle and Turner, The Fish is Red, p. 206.
>
>20. Tarabochia on del Valle: author's interview (December 19, 1975).
>
>21. Del Valle/Ferrie: Hinckle and Turner, The Fish Is Red, p.206. See also
>Robert Morrow, The Senator Must Die (Santa Monica, Calif.: Roundtable,
>1988), pp.31, 73.
>
>22. Del Valle's force: Joseph Martin and Phil Santora, "Countdown for
>Castro," New York Daily News (January 8, 1961). A
>
>23. Del Valle/Free Cuba: Anthony Summers, Conspiracy (New York: McGraw-Hill,
>1980), p. 347.
>
>24. Del Valle's death: ibid., p.498. See also Charles Golden, "Mystery Miami
>Murder Linked to JFK Plot," National Enquirer (April 30, 1967).
>
Notice the above date -- over two months AFTER Ferrie and Del Valle died.
>25. Ferrie's death: Jim Garrison, On the Trail of the Assassins (New York:
>Sheridan Square Press, 1988), pp. 140-44.
Ah, yes, the most reliable of all possible sources . . . Anyone who stills
think so should check out Patricia Lambert's *False Witness.*
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>From Jim Garrison's _Playboy_ interview (10/67):
>
>GARRISON: I think it's a lovely explanation. Now perhaps Mr. Liebeler
>will intercede with the Department of Justice to release 25 pages of the
>FBI report on Ferrie that have been classified top secret in the
>Archives.
Well, we've seen these pages now, haven't we, Mr. Hargrove? What do they prove?
Hmm?
>Then we'll all have a chance to see for ourselves how clear it
>is that Ferrie wasn't involved.
Is that true, Mr. Hargrove?
>Every scrap of evidence we've
>uncovered--and it hasn't been difficult to find--reveals not only the
>fact of his involvement but the reasons for it.
But Jim Alcock -- one of the last of the Garrison loyalists -- now admits that
this wasn't so -- that they had NOTHING on Ferrie. But we know this already --
from the utter lack of evidence in the DA's files. Or are you holding back on
us, Mr. Hargrove? Please tell us what this evidence is that Garrison spoke of?
Or did the CIA steal it while he was being interviewed?
>His politics were
>ultra-right wing, as I indicated earlier, but we've been able to
>determine conclusively that his motivation was closer to that of the
>Cuban exiles on the "operative" level--a burning hatred of Fidel Castro.
>When Castro was a guerrilla in the Sierra Maestra, Ferrie is reliably
>reported to have piloted guns for him.
Please cite Garrison's source for this, Mr. Hargrove.
>But in 1959, when Castro started
>to show his Marxist colors, Ferrie appears to have felt betrayed and
>reacted against Castro with all the bitterness of a suitor jilted by his
>girl. From that moment on, he dedicated himself to Castro's overthrow
>and began working with exile groups such as the Cuban Democratic
>Revolutionary Front and planning airborne missions against Castro's
>military installations. He was reported to have been paid up to $1500 a
>mission by an ex-Batista official named Eladio del Valle. But I haven't
>been able to check out Del Valle's involvement with Ferrie, because on
>February 22, 1967, the same day Ferrie died in New Orleans, Del Valle's
>head was split open by a hatchet and he was shot through the heart in
>Miami. His murder is listed as unsolved by the Miami police.
Ah, but that's not exactly true, now is it? A suspect was indicted. Please see
the URL above.
And notice that Garrison admits, "I haven't
been able to check out Del Valle's involvement with Ferrie." Interesting.
>In any
>case, Ferrie was recruited by the CIA, which employed hundreds of such
>people in their network of anti-Castro exile activities.
Please, Mr. Hargrove . . . Garrison's sources for the above claims. He wouldn't
have made these claims had he not had numerous relaible sources. Please
describe them for us.
>From the Bay of
>Pigs on, he hated Kennedy as much as he did Castro; he felt that J.F.K.
>had betrayed the invasion brigade by not sending in air cover. As the
>events I described earlier led to a dŠtente between Russia and America,
>and as the FBI--under Kennedy's orders--started cracking down on the
>CIA-supported anti-Castro underground, Ferrie's hatred for Kennedy grew
>more and more obsessive. Let me add here that this isn't just
>speculation on my part; we have a number of reliable witnesses who were
>privy to Ferrie's thoughts at this period and saw his hatred of Kennedy
>develop into a driving force.
Really? Is that true, Mr. Hargrove? Could you name some of these "secret
witnesses" for us? I can think of ONE witness, but I wouldn't call him very
reliable . . .
>After the assassination, as a matter of
>fact, something psychologically curious happened to Ferrie: He dropped
>out of anti-Castro exile activities, left the pay of the CIA and drifted
>aimlessly while his emotional problems increased to the point where he
>was totally dependent on huge doses of tranquilizers and barbiturates.
Pleasse, Mr. Hargrove . . . Garrison's sources for the above claims.
I
>don't know if Ferrie ever experienced any guilt about the assassination
>itself; but in his last months, he was a tortured man.
>
>PLAYBOY: After Ferrie's death, you called it "an apparent suicide," but
>the coroner announced that the autopsy showed death was due to a
>ruptured blood vessel at the base of the brain, which caused a fatal
>hemorrhage. Have you subsequently resolved the discrepancy in your
>points of view?
>
>GARRISON: Dr. Nicholas Chetta is an excellent coroner, and inasmuch as
>he found a total absence of traceable poisons or barbiturates in
>Ferrie's system, I would respect his opinion that it was a natural
>death.
How interesting.
>On the other hand, I can't help but lend a certain weight to two
>suicide notes Ferrie left in his apartment, one of which said how sweet
>it was to finally leave this wretched life. I suppose it could just be a
>weird coincidence that the night Ferrie penned two suicide notes, he died
>of natural causes.
>
>------------------------
>
>--Jim Hargrove
>
Yup -- that coincidence (that a man who knew for some time he was dying would
write a couple of despondent notes) is the same bit of evidence you've cited
previously, Mr. Hargrove. What else do you have?
Meanwhile, allow a quick re-post:
This is excerpted from A. J. Weberman's Web site (www.weberman.com):
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - -
DAVID FERRIE DID NOT KNOW ELADIO DEL VALLE
In 1962 David Ferrie was alleged to have worked with Rolando Masferrer's
associate, Eladio Del Valle. New Orleans District Attorney Jim Garrison
hadinformation that Eladio Del Valle occasionally paid him $1,500 per mission.
[Flammonde Kennedy Conspiracy p19] Who had given Garrison this information? In
Plot or Politics? Rosemary James and Jack Wardlaw may have identified that
source: "Oddly enough, a man who reportedly knew Ferrie and had been questioned
by Garrison's Staff, was murdered in Miami on the same day Ferrie died,
February 22, 1967. Diego Gonzales Tendedera, a Cuban exile and Miami
correspondent for El Tiempo, a Spanish language paper in New York, wrote a
story after the mutilated body of Eladio Del Valle was found in a Miami parking
lot...According to Tendedera, Del Valle fled Cuba with most of his wealth
before Castro took over. In Miami he set up a grocery store as a front for
gathering freedom fighters, procuring guns, grenades, bombs and sabotage
equipment. Tendedera said that he frequently visited Del Valle and that he met
Ferrie in the store. During one six month period, he said, Ferrie and Del Valle
flew over Cuba two or three times a week in Del Valle's twin engine Apache to
drop incendiaries, and rescue anti-Communist Cubans who wanted to escape.
Tendedera said the federal agents put a stop to the raids in 1961 by
confiscating his plane." In a story in the National Enquirer Diego Gonzales
Tendedera wrote that Manuel Artime told him Del Valle was killed on the orders
of Fidel Castro: "He knew too much about the Kennedy assassination." There
were no references to William David Ferrie in Eladio Del Valle's FBI file nor
were there any references to Eladio Del Valle in William David Ferrie's FBI
file. . . .
ANALYSIS
The death of Eladio Del Valle was unconnected to the JFK assassination. Gerry
Patrick Hemming helped perpetuate the myth that Del Valle had known David
Ferrie: "Del Valle did know Ferrie. We called Del Valle 'Gito.' Gito took the
heavy fall for some of Strugis' shit in setting up operations and blowing
airplanes up to collect the fucking insurance on them. It didn't take me long
to determine who had killed him. I went there to identify the body. Tony
Fontana, who is now head of the Florida Parole Commission, wanted to know what
I was doing there. He asked about Del Valle's body. I said, 'You ought to give
a call to Garrison's people in New Orleans. They'd be interested this guy was
hit.'"
(end) - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some references on Garrison's investigation:
"Who Speaks for Clay Shaw?"
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shaw1.htm
Excerpts from the diary of Garrison investigator Tom Bethell:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/garrison.htm
Also see Edward Jay Epstein's *Counterplot* (anthologized in *The Assassination
Chronicles*), James Kirkwood's *American Grotesque* and Patricia Lambert's new
*False Witness* to see how the contemporaneous record compares to Garrison's
memoirs. You may also wish to seek out Garrison advocate Jim DiEugenio's book,
*Destiny Betrayed,* and see how it compares to the others.
Excerpts from the diary of Garrison investigator Tom Bethell:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/garrison.htm
Not to mention Edward Jay Epstein's *Counterplot* (anthologized in *The
Assassination Chronicles*), James Kirkwood's *American Grotesque* and Patricia
Lambert's new *False Witness.* You may also wish to seek out Garrison advocate
Jim DiEugenio's book, *Destiny Betrayed,* and see how it compares to the
others.
Dreitzes
Subject: Re: Ferrie and del Valle worked together
From: black...@aol.com (Blackburst)
Date: 3/14/99 11:16 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <19990314231658...@ng-ce1.aol.com>
In a post asserting that David Ferrie and Eladio del Valle worked together, Jim
Hargrove's only reference to a link between the two men is Dick Russell's "The
Man Who Knew Too Much", pp292-3.
But Russell's assertion of a link between the two men derives from Warren
Hinckle and Bill Turner's "The Fish Is Red", p206. Hickle and Turner do not
give a citiation for the assertion, but it appears to be the same information
contained in the oft-cited El Tiempo article by Diego Gonzales Tendedera.
(I do not have Morrow's "The Senator Must Die", but if it is the same Robert
Morrow who wrote "Betrayal" and "First Hand Witness", I regard his assertions
about Ferrie with some skepticism.)
It appears that all published accounts of a Ferrie-del Valle relationship
derive from the Tendedera article, so the allegation stands or falls on
Tendedera's accuracy, which has not been corroborated. An examination of
Ferrie's employment records suggests that Tendedera's assertion that "during
one six-month period...Ferrie and del Valle were together [presumably in Miami]
every day...[flying] over Cuba two or three times a week...[until] federal
agents put a stop to the raids in 1961" does not seem likely. Except for the
last 4 months of 1961, Ferrie flew a commercial airliner three times a week
from New Orleans to Houston and other cities in Texas. He would have been
hard-pressed to commute to Miami on a daily basis. And the flight log of his
Stinson does not reveal any frequent commuting to Miami.
Judging from the title, I looked forward to this post from the generally
well-informed Jim Hargrove, but I was disappointed to find that the assertion
was not supported by any new evidence beyond the Tendedera article.
oo
David Blackburst
For the record, Jim responded . . .
Subject: Re: Ferrie and del Valle worked together
From: harg...@enteract.com (Jim Hargrove)
Date: 3/15/99 12:58 AM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <36ec98bd...@news.enteract.com>
CIA contract agent Robert Morrow clearly corroborates the positioning of
Ferrie and del Valle in the Kennedy assassination, and surely the fact that
they knew each other (I don't have any of Morrow's books at hand).
This newsgroup has seen several food fights over Morrow's credibility during
the 7 years I've been trying to follow it, but published reports in the _New
York Times_ and other dailies from 1963 indicating that Morrow and his wife
(spying is a family business, you know!) were trying to wreck the Cuban
economy by counterfeiting Cuban currency clearly tend to support Morrow's
claim that he was a CIA hell-raiser.
From memory, here is the short version of Morrow's allegation: In the summer
of 1963, he was ordered to buy several Mannlicher Carcano rifles which were
collected by David Ferrie a month or so later. According to Morrow, Ferrie
said the rifles would be used to assassinate a president of a foreign
country--not the United States (I think he says that Ferrie named the
country, but I can't remember it). Sometime later, Morrow claims, del Valle
told him the guns were for the Kennedy hit.
If Morrow's allegations are even close to the truth, you can bet that there
is a mountain of well tested CIA propaganda designed to make us disbelieve
them. Perhaps we will see foothills immediately....
And since I started off with a Dick Russell quote, I'd like to end with
another. Long after publication of TMWKTM, Russell published an update
article called "JFK & THE CUBAN CONNECTION: Havana's Spies Spill the Beans
at Top-Level Conference!"
The full story can be read here:
http://www.hightimes.com/hightimes/ht/mag/9608/jfkcuba.html
Here is an excerpt that seems germane:
<QUOTE ON>
Havana's Missing Pieces
The Cubans' information comes from Tony Cuesta, a Cuban exile leader taken
prisoner in a 1966 raid. "Cuesta was blinded in an explosion and spent most
of his time in the hospital," Escalante recalls. In 1978, he was among a
group of imprisoned exiles released through a deal with the Carter
Administration. "A few days before he was to leave," continues Escalante, "I
had several conversations with him, and he wrote up a declaration. Cuesta
volunteered, `I want to tell you something very important, but I do not want
to make this public--because I am returning to my family in Miami, and this
could be very dangerous.' I think this was a little bit of thanks on his
part for the medical care he received." Cuestra died in 1994.
In his written statement, Tony Cuesta named two other exiles involved in the
JFK assassination, Eladio del Valle and Herminio Diaz Garcia. "We asked, but
he did not want to be questioned further about this," Escalante says.
Eladio Del Valle was murdered in Miami in 1967, on the same night that David
Ferrie--Carlos Marcello's personal pilot, and an associate of both del Valle
and Oswald--supposedly committed suicide in New Orleans, hours before he was
to be questioned by District Attorney Jim Garrison about the assassination.
According to Escalante, del Valle served in both military intelligence and
the judicial police in the regime of Fulgencio Batista, the Cuban dictator
ousted by Castro. "Del Valle was in charge of narcotics in a town south of
Havana, where he had business dealings with Santos Trafficante," Escalante's
Cuban files show. After Castro's triumph, del Valle fled to Miami and formed
the "Anti-Communist Cuban Liberation Movement."
"We managed to penetrate this organization," reveals Escalante. "We came to
know a lot of plans for exile invasions, secret overflights to provide arms
to internal rebel groups. David Ferrie was the pilot for some of these
flights. One of our agents talked on many occasions with del Valle, who in
1962 told him that Kennedy must be killed to solve the Cuban problem."
<QUOTE OFF>
--Jim Hargrove
Bill Parker
Number 21 above is the only citation for Russell's allegation that Ferrie knew Del Valle.
In my copy of Deadly Secrets (the 1992 retitled version of "The Fish is Red") , Del Valle is
mentioned on pages 233, 270, and 321.
pg 233 states:
"Ferrie got into the anti-Castro action early. He flew fire bomb raids in 1959 in the pay of former
cuban congressman Eladio "Yito" Del Valle..."
Hinckle/Turner provide no note citing their source of this information. I guess we just "believe".
On page 270 they repeat this unsubstantiated allegation.
On page 321 they add that Del Valle paid Ferrie $1500 per fire bombing raid, and that they died the
same day. Again, no source.
So Russell quotes two sources, one of which (Hinckle/Turner) only offer a bald, unsourced,
unsubstantiated allegation.
The other source, Morrow's "The Senator Must Die" (which I do not have) embroiled Morrow in a
lawsuit when he was sued by the Pakistani Photographer he accused in the book of shooting RFK with a
gun hidden in his camera. Morrow lost the lawsuit.
If you can provide Morrow's source for his allegation that Ferrie and Del Valle were aquainted that
would be appreciated.
Bill Parker
Jim Hargrove
>The assertion that David Ferrie was training Cuban troops in training camps
>north of Lake Ponchartrain is often repeated, but hard to find convincing
>primary evidence to support. [. . . .]
On 2/24/67, before he even met with Garrison or anyone at the DA's office,
Perry Russo was interviewed by Bill Bankston of the State-Times newspaper, a
summary of which appeared about three weeks later in the Morning-Advocate:
"On two occassions, Russo said, he saw Ferrie in the company of Spanish
speaking individuals dressed in green fatigue uniforms. They wore helmets,
Russo said. [. . . .] The friend told Russo that he was training with Ferrie
in jungle warfare 'to help bring about more democratic government.' Russo
said Ferrie never mentioned Castro in connection with the training.
["Here's What Russo Said Here Before Going to New Orleans," Baton Rouge
Morning-Advocate, 3/15/67]
<...>
>3) The evidence does not support the idea that Ferrie was a trainer at the
>famous camp in July-August 1963. None of the participants there remember him.
>The camp was run by the Movimiento Democratico Christiano. Delphine Roberts and
>Joe Newbrough have made suggestions that Ferrie and Banister were connected
>with this camp, but for reasons I have stated elsewhere, I would like to have
>corroboration from a more reliable source.
The FBI raid/weapons conficscation occurred on 7/31/63. Please cite your
source that "none of the participants there remember him."
>The only verifyable istance of gunrunning on the part of Banister and Ferrie
>was the September 1961 Houma heist. Nearly all published accounts actually
>refer to this one incident.
I think that's probably true (although the date doesn't sound quite right),
but does this sort of thing strike you as normal for someone merely intenet
on finding a few good [and young] men?
>The Frente Revolucionario Democratico was founded in July 1960, and Ferrie was
>not involved.
Dick Russell reports otherwise. How do you know Ferrie was not involved?
>In November, Sergio Arcacha Smith was sent to New Orleans to open
>a branch office there. Shortly after his arrival, Ferrie volunteered to help,
>but was regarded as a gringo and was not fully accepted into the group. After
>the Bay of Pigs in April 1961, a despondent Arcacha became much closer to
>Ferrie, but it didn't last long. After Ferrie's August 1961 morals arrests, he
>was ostracized by the exile community, and was out by the end of the year. My
>research reveals very little, if any, anti-Castro activity on his part after
>this time.
Let me get this straight. Bitter, paramilitary exiles, intent on going to
war against Castro, would ostracize a proven weapons provider because they
didn't like the fact that he was gay?
--Jim Hargrove
Blackburst
>Perry Russo was interviewed by Bill Bankston of the State-Times newspaper, a
>summary of which appeared about three weeks later in the Morning-Advocate:
>"On two occassions, Russo said, he saw Ferrie in the company of Spanish
>speaking individuals dressed in green fatigue uniforms. They wore helmets,
>Russo said. [. . . .] The friend told Russo that he was training with Ferrie
>in jungle warfare 'to help bring about more democratic government.'
Certainly Ferrie was involved with several Cubans - in the 1961-2 period - with
whom he hoped to foment a counterrevolution in Cuba. But Russo's quote does not
chronologically connect Ferrie with the 1963 Mandeville area training camp.
>Please cite your
>source that "none of the participants there [at the Mandeville camp] remember
him [Ferrie]."
>
My principal source would be an interview I conducted with Victor Paneque, who
was the MDC trainer at the camp. I will find the tape and transcribe the
relevant portion. My notes indicate that Paneque did all the training, did not
ever see Ferrie at the camp, and ascertained (in 1967) that nobody else there
had seen him.
In NODA interviews, Laureano Batista Falla (2/5/67) said there were no
English-speaking people at the camp except Ricardo Davis and Fernando
Fernandez. Angel Vega (2/5/67) said he never saw Arcacha or "Lindbergh" (NODA
code name for Ferrie) at the camp, that the only other Americans he saw there
were the delaBarres.
Ricardo Davis, who helped organize the MDC camp, gave a joint interview with
Arcacha to Holland McCombs of Time (3/21/67). Both told McCombs that "Arcacha
and Ferrie did not run any training camp, that Ferrie did not run any training
camp..., that Ferrie did not concentrate on any one thing long enough to
operate a training camp."
While Quiroga and Bringuier were not directly involved in the MDC camp, they
both had heard that Ferrie had nothing to do with it. And there are other bits
of evidence to this effect, which I will dig up.
>>The only verifyable istance of gunrunning on the part of Banister and Ferrie
>>was the September 1961 Houma heist.
>I think that's probably true (although the date doesn't sound quite right)
There is a lot of confusion about the date of the heist, even on the NODA
staff. Novel and Ehlinger both related the date as early September 1961 in 2/67
interviews with NODA and the FBI. Arcacha actually contacted the FBI on 9/18/61
and gave them a very redacted account of the recent incident.
The early September date squares nicely with Vernon Gerdes famous observation
of Schlumberger boxes in Banister's office in the September-October 1961 time
frame.
The August 21, 1961 date chosen by Garrison seems quite unlikely, as the
Jefferson Parish deputies who swarmed through Ferrie's home the next morning on
morals charges could hardly have missed the armaments stored there. And the
"pre-Bay of Pigs" date is not supported by any of the principals.
>>The Frente Revolucionario Democratico was founded in July 1960, and Ferrie
>was
>>not involved.
>
>Dick Russell reports otherwise. How do you know Ferrie was not involved?
>
Ferrie was not active with the FRD in July 1960, by his own account becoming
involved five months later. The group was formed in Miami(?) by the leaders of
various anti-Castro groups, at a much higher level than Ferrie.
>Bitter, paramilitary exiles, intent on going to
>war against Castro, would ostracize a proven weapons provider because they
>didn't like the fact that he was gay?
>
Ferrie was not a proven weapons provider in August 1961. The morals arrests did
him great harm among the exiles (see accounts by Quiroga and Bringuier), not
because he was gay, but due to the bad publicity that the boys in question were
minors. Homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things. Ferrie's
difficulties also hastened the demise of Arcacha, whose rivals were looking for
an excuse to depose him. And as Garrison himself relates, Ferrie and Arcacha
were deposed by early 1962.
oo
David Blackburst
jpsh...@my-dejanews.com
machine gun bullets or were they the kinds of explosives a company
like Schlumberger would normally use?
>
>
> The August 21, 1961 date chosen by Garrison seems quite unlikely, as the
> Jefferson Parish deputies who swarmed through Ferrie's home the next morning on
> morals charges could hardly have missed the armaments stored there. And the
> "pre-Bay of Pigs" date is not supported by any of the principals.
>
> >>The Frente Revolucionario Democratico was founded in July 1960, and Ferrie
> >was
> >>not involved.
> >
> >Dick Russell reports otherwise. How do you know Ferrie was not involved?
> >
>
> Ferrie was not active with the FRD in July 1960, by his own account becoming
> involved five months later. The group was formed in Miami(?) by the leaders of
> various anti-Castro groups, at a much higher level than Ferrie.
>
> >Bitter, paramilitary exiles, intent on going to
> >war against Castro, would ostracize a proven weapons provider because they
> >didn't like the fact that he was gay?
> >
>
> Ferrie was not a proven weapons provider in August 1961. The morals arrests did
> him great harm among the exiles (see accounts by Quiroga and Bringuier), not
> because he was gay, but due to the bad publicity that the boys in question were
> minors. Homosexuality and pedophilia are two different things. Ferrie's
> difficulties also hastened the demise of Arcacha, whose rivals were looking for
> an excuse to depose him. And as Garrison himself relates, Ferrie and Arcacha
> were deposed by early 1962.
>
> oo
> David Blackburst
>
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Blackburst
>Were the materials involved [in the Houma heist] real military ordnance like
.50 caliber
>machine gun bullets or were they the kinds of explosives a company
>like Schlumberger would normally use?
2/21/67 FBI report of interview with Gordon Dwane Novel:
"[Novel] advised [that Arcacha] Smith and his compatriots had obtained from the
magazine hand grenades, time bombs, explosives, thousands of rounds of .30
caliber ammunition, tracer ammunition, bazooka projectiles and rifle grenades.
He said all of this ammunition bore the U.S. Army Ordnance emblem."
oo
David
Dreitzes
>Date: 3/20/99 2:53 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990320145312...@ng-cf1.aol.com>
Thank you, Mr. Blackburst. You make more and more of my own Oswald-related work
obsolete everytime you share such information with us, but I'm getting used to
that, and I prefer knowing the truth to seeing my own theories confirmed, as
much fun as it might be to have the satisfaction of both.
Dave Reitzes
Dreitzes
>From: black...@aol.com (Blackburst)
>Date: 3/20/99 2:53 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <19990320145312...@ng-cf1.aol.com>
>
>Jim Hargrove wrote:
>>summary of which appeared about three weeks later in the Morning-Advocate:
>>"On two occassions, Russo said, he saw Ferrie in the company of Spanish
>>speaking individuals dressed in green fatigue uniforms. They wore helmets,
>>Russo said. [. . . .] The friend told Russo that he was training with Ferrie
>>in jungle warfare 'to help bring about more democratic government.'
>
>Certainly Ferrie was involved with several Cubans - in the 1961-2 period -
>with
>whom he hoped to foment a counterrevolution in Cuba. But Russo's quote does
>not
>chronologically connect Ferrie with the 1963 Mandeville area training camp.
>
You know, David, although some are not going to believe this, I really wasn't
looking very seriously for any evidence tending to cast doubt upon Robert
Tanenbaum's credibility. Just a few short months ago I labeled him very
honestly as being "100% credible" in my opinion. Now, well . . .
Anybody who hasn't heard about the mysteriously vanished 8mm film Tanenbaum
claims to have seen during his HSCA days depicting Oswald, Ferrie and numerous
others at the Mandeville training camp: If you don't want to spring for his
novel *Corruption of Blood* in order to read a description of it, you'd better
hightail it to part two of my *Oswald in New Orleans* article at Deanie
Richards' JFK Place:
gopher://freenet.akron.oh.us:70/11/SIGS/JFK/Only/JA/DR
Don't dilly-dally; those mysterious vanishings could be contagious.
Dave Reitzes
My Marijuana Cards
Christopher Strimbu
Hank Sienzant
> I would like to thank "My Marijuana Cards" for bring me onto this interesting trip back to 1999. Never thought I'd thank a drug company, but that's life for you.
Today we get stuff like "Iiar" and "coward", from Ben (when he bothers to reply at all to rebuttal arguments, which lately he hasn't done) and stuff like "baby killer" from Sky Throne.
Sky Throne 19efppp
Hank Sienzant
Christopher Strimbu
Ben Holmes
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, March 10, 2022 at 4:29:38 PM UTC-5, christoph...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> I would like to thank "My Marijuana Cards" for bring me onto this interesting trip back to 1999. Never thought I'd thank a drug company, but that's life for you.
>
>More than that, compare and contrast the level of discourse from 1999 to today's. People were civil to each other and willing to exchange ideas.
much easier for you to lie about the evidence back then. Nowadays
it's almost impossible for you to get away with your lies, and you
HATE that.
> Today we get stuff like "Iiar" and "coward", from Ben
to the facts posted that you run from...
> (when he bothers to reply at all to rebuttal arguments, which lately he hasn't done)
responding, so I'm doing the same thing. Why are you complaining
about me doing what **YOU** showed me?
>and stuff like "baby killer" from Sky Throne.
Ben Holmes
<hsie...@aol.com> wrote:
>You see what I mean? Look at what we get from CT Sky Throne.
to killfile the trolls, that's *YOUR* problem. "Sky Throne" was
killfiled by me almost the instant he appeared.
Ben Holmes
than in earlier years.
And more people are knowledgeable on the evidence in this case than in
the past.
There are *REASONS* people are more unforgiving these days.