Who Named Them Tramps ?
Sam McClung
Did they refer to themselves as tramps?
Were they referred to as vagabonds, vagrants, etc. on 11-22-63 prior to being
referred to as tramps?
Martin Shackelford
photos on the "Johnny Carson Show" in 1967.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Gary Mack
found the photos in the mid-60's.
"Sam McClung" <sa...@flash.net> wrote in message
news:390DF337...@flash.net...
Sam McClung
> Who first referred to them as tramps on 11-22-63?
.
I don't know.
> Did they refer to themselves as tramps?
.
I don't know.
> Were they referred to as vagabonds, vagrants, etc. on 11-22-63 prior to being
> referred to as tramps?
.
I don't know.
Doesn't tramp sound more Freddy The Freeloader earth friendly
than Valkyrie The Vagrant or Virgil The Vagabond?
I don't know.
What other v words could they have been, social commentary aside?
I don't know.
Hal
Sam,
In the early 1960s, particularly in the South/Southwest, they were
tramps. Sometimes hoboes, maybe. A "vagabond" was a tramp with a
guitar. A "vagrant" was a kid who wouldn't go to school. If you want
to get a feel of the political consciousness of the times, read the WCR
and note the "coloreds," "boys," "ladies," etc.
Hal
Sam McClung wrote:
>
> Who first referred to them as tramps on 11-22-63?
>
> Did they refer to themselves as tramps?
>
> Were they referred to as vagabonds, vagrants, etc. on 11-22-63 prior to being
> referred to as tramps?
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Debra Hartman
February-March FBI report, all three men travelled the country
together in the early sixties as migrant farm workers. One of them
went on to earn a college degree. The other two were less successful,
but Harold Doyle has supported himself and has been well-liked and
praised as a diligent worker by former employers. He never made it a
secret to those close to him that he was one of the three men pictured
in Dealey Plaza, and found the publicity amusing. His early pictures
leave no doubt whatsoever that he is the youngest, dark-haired man
nick-named--lord knows why---"Frenchy." He was later misidentified
(in 1996) by Silvia Odio as one of her three phantom "visitors," along
with Lee Oswald. Which reveals just how "serious" Odio's false
account can be taken.
Voyager
Whoever named them "tramps" was inaccurate. As detailed in a February-March
FBI report, all three men travelled the country
together in the early sixties as migrant farm workers. One of them went on
to earn a college degree. The other two were less successful, but Harold
Doyle has supported himself and has been well-liked and praised as a
diligent worker by former employers. He never made it a secret to those
close to him that he was one of the three men pictured in Dealey Plaza, and
found the publicity amusing. His early pictures leave no doubt whatsoever
that he is the youngest, dark-haired man nick-named--lord knows
why---"Frenchy." He was later misidentified (in 1996) by Silvia Odio as one
of her three phantom "visitors," along with Lee Oswald. Which reveals just
how "serious" Odio's false account can be taken.
Voyager:
Where are this photos of Doyle when he was younger Deborah?
I never saw any.
I you have them, please post them.
And this misidentification of Doyle by Odio happend because of
his early or of his late photos?
I feel pity sometimes, for the people who
read one or more newspapers, and they think
that they know what really happend in the world.
Thomas Jefferson
Former U.S. President.
Thanks
Voyager.
voyager
Sam McClung
>
> > Who first referred to them as tramps on 11-22-63?
>
> I don't know.
still
> > Did they refer to themselves as tramps?
>
> .
> I don't know.
still
> > Were they referred to as vagabonds, vagrants, etc. on 11-22-63 prior to being
> > referred to as tramps?
>
> .
> I don't know.
still
> Doesn't tramp sound more Freddy The Freeloader earth friendly
> than Valkyrie The Vagrant or Virgil The Vagabond?
>
> I don't know.
still
> What other v words could they have been, social commentary aside?
>
> I don't know.
still
IsabelKirk
>Where are this photos of Doyle when he was younger Deborah?
>I never saw any.
You didn't look very hard, obviously.
>I you have them, please post them.
They've already been published. You should know the subject before you make
long discredited arguments.
>And this misidentification of Doyle by Odio happend because of
>his early or of his late photos?
It obviously happened because Odio is a cornered woman, trying desperately to
bolster a lie to cover her association with Lee Oswald. She no doubt had no
idea Doyle had been identified, and resorted in her desperation to claiming he
was one of her "hallway" visitors. She figured she was safe in doing so, since
everyone knew the tramps would never be identified. Poor Silvia. Always a day
late and a dollar short.
Voyager
You didn't look very hard, obviously.
They've already been published. You should know the subject before you make
long discredited arguments.
It obviously happened because Odio is a cornered woman, trying desperately
to
bolster a lie to cover her association with Lee Oswald. She no doubt had no
idea Doyle had been identified, and resorted in her desperation to claiming
he
was one of her "hallway" visitors. She figured she was safe in doing so,
since
everyone knew the tramps would never be identified. Poor Silvia. Always a
day
late and a dollar short.
Voyager:
I know one thig.
That i never show any of those photos
IF YOU HAVE THEM WHY DON'T YOU POST THEM HERE?????
M.Shakelford has been researching this case for 26 years, and even
him doe's not have any of this photos as he admited.
You seem to have them.
SO I'LL BE WATING FOR YOUR NEXT POST, WHERE THISE PHOTOS
WILL BE INSIDE. OK???????????????????????????????????????
As for S.Odio, i know how she get arested in the first place and the things
that she said.
Voyager.
Martin Shackelford
available to post.
Martin
Voyager wrote:
--
Sam McClung
>
> > Who first referred to them as tramps on 11-22-63?
>
> .
> I don't know.
.
nobody knows
> > Did they refer to themselves as tramps?
>
> .
> I don't know.
.
nobody knows
> > Were they referred to as vagabonds, vagrants, etc. on 11-22-63 prior to being
> > referred to as tramps?
>
> .
> I don't know.
.
nobody knows
> Doesn't tramp sound more Freddy The Freeloader earth friendly
> than Valkyrie The Vagrant or Virgil The Vagabond?
>
> I don't know.
> What other v words could they have been, social commentary aside?
>
> I don't know.
Sam McClung
secret agent man
he's giving you a number
and takin away your name
S W
"tramp" photo. It's the guy. One of the tramps. This article
is from the San Diego Union Tribune. It is in their
archives.
Chauncey Holt; claimed inside scoop in JFK killing
Valerie Alvord
STAFF WRITER
05-Jul-1997 Saturday
He was born into a circus family, and spent his early years
literally walking a tightrope for audiences.
In his later years, Chauncey Holt walked a figurative
tightrope, trying to convince the world that he had inside
information about the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy.
Mr. Holt, who was born in Kentucky and moved to San Diego
County in the 1970s, died June 28 after a short battle with
cancer. He was 75, and had lived in La Mesa for the past
decade.
He burst onto the national scene in 1991 with a story in
Newsweek magazine about the Oliver Stone movie "JFK." In the
article, Mr. Holt claimed to have been one of the so-called
"three tramps" photographed in Dealey Plaza in Dallas on
Nov. 22, 1963.
The men had been pulled from a railroad car just yards from
an area known as "the grassy knoll," from which witnesses
initially claimed the shots that killed Kennedy had been
fired.
The official report on the assassination by the Warren
Commission concluded that the shots were fired from a
different location -- the Texas School Book Depository -- by
Lee Harvey Oswald, a gunman acting alone.
But many Americans came to believe that Oswald, shot to
death himself two days later, was part of a conspiracy spun
by big business, the CIA and the underworld, all of whom,
according to the theories, had reasons to hate the
president.
The ideas, which have been debated, debunked and decried,
were passed to a new generation of believers by Stone's
blockbuster movie.
Mr. Holt, who never claimed to know who killed Kennedy, was
among those Stone interviewed for the script, and his
version of events was prominently featured. His story
created controversy in the world of Kennedy conspiracy
researchers.
In an interview, Mr. Holt told his story to The San Diego
Union-Tribune.
He said he was in Dallas that day on orders from the CIA,
delivering phony Secret Service documents to various people.
He said he had been told an "incident" might occur and, if
so, he should run to an open rail car and wait. When he got
there, Mr. Holt said, he saw two other men, both of whom
he knew as fellow operatives.
A trained artist, Mr. Holt claimed he was a CIA "asset"
running front companies and producing forgeries on demand.
He joined up, he said, while working as an accountant for
organized crime figures such as Meyer Lansky.
Documented milestones in his life include a federal prison
sentence for forgery, running a survivalist gun camp in the
Antelope Valley, and becoming the subject of a five-year,
unsuccessful investigation into the slaying of an Oceanside
businessman. Mr. Holt vehemently denied anything to
do with the killing.
In recent years, he lived quietly on the estate of an
ex-wife, painting portraits and piecing together a book and
video about his life.
His publicist, Anthony Davi, said Mr. Holt's work --
including recently recovered letters and documents -- will
be released this fall and will lay to rest any suspicions
that his claims about his life were fabricated.
"The book and the video will show the interlocking web of
the intelligence community, politicians and the underworld
that formed during the Cold War and may be relevant even
today," Davi said. "We'll put what we have out
there and people can make up their own minds about what's
true."
Mr. Holt, who appeared on television and radio nationwide,
could be heard often on local radio talk shows, particularly
around the anniversary of the assassination.
Most who knew Mr. Holt in recent years say they were drawn
in as much by his charm as by fascination with his stories
about Oswald, the CIA, the underworld and the early days of
Las Vegas.
He claimed to have known movie stars and mobsters, and said
his picture was snapped not only as a "tramp" but also in
the background of a photo of Oswald passing out political
leaflets in New Orleans before the assassination.
Mr. Holt could converse eloquently on almost any subject,
his friends said, from politics and history to arts and
entertainment.
"Chauncey was an old-fashioned raconteur, a sort of
Renaissance man," said Mike McIntyre, a former San Diego
Union reporter who said he met Holt through a mutual friend.
"Ultimately, it didn't matter to me whether he was telling
the truth or not," McIntyre said. "I wasn't writing about
him. It was a friendship. I just enjoyed knowing him for the
short time that I did."
Mr. Holt is survived by a daughter, Karin Harcourt, and
granddaughter, Chauncey Harcourt, of San Diego. There will
be a private memorial gathering today.
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