Guys Working on TSBD 6th Floor
RICLAND
when JFK was shot.
WHAT?!!!!
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!!!!
WHO THE HELL WERE THESE GUYS, ED!!!!?
And you better damn well have an answer, Mr. Know it all!
ricland
David Von Pein
(Specter, anyone??)
Bud never said there were TSBD workers working on the 6th Floor AT THE
TIME JFK WAS SHOT.
Here's what Bud said exactly......
"You really need to learn the basics of this case. The elevator was
working fine the day of the assassination. Both were used by the guys
who were working on the 6th floor when they broke for lunch. They were
the warehouse -type elevators that are tied up on a floor when the
doors are open."
~~~~~~
Ric,
A group of TSBD employees who were working on the sixth floor before
lunchtime "raced" the two elevators to the first floor shortly before
noon on 11/22/63, with Lee Oswald being THE ONLY EMPLOYEE who decided
not to join his co-workers downstairs for lunch....with Oswald staying
on the sixth floor when the others took the elevators downstairs.
Oswald even asked for one of the two elevators to be sent back up to
him.*
* = I can't quite figure out, however (via the witness testimony), if
an elevator actually WAS sent back up to Oswald or not. Charles
Givens' testimony doesn't say one way or the other; and Bonnie Ray
Williams' WC testimony verifies that Oswald yelled for one of the boys
(Williams says he probably yelled at Givens specifically) to send an
elevator back up to him by closing the gate when the elevator reached
the first floor, but Williams said he thinks an elevator did NOT go
back up after the boys raced them both to the bottom floor.
But if an elevator was sent back up, Oswald probably left the gate
open after it was sent back up to him; by doing this, the elevator
would have been stuck on the sixth floor.
So, there were no employees (other than Oswald) on the sixth floor at
the exact time of the assassination (12:30 PM).
A little more Nov. 22nd "Lunch" and "Elevator" talk (just for the heck
of it)......
TSBD employee Bonnie Ray Williams was on the 6th Floor for a short
time just after 12:00, eating his chicken-sandwich lunch (with Oswald
more-than-likely hiding in his "Nest" the whole time, without Williams
realizing he was there).
Before he joined James Jarman and Harold Norman on the 5th Floor
around 12:15, Williams left his empty lunch sack and Dr. Pepper soda
bottle near a hand cart ("two-wheeler truck") in the middle of the 6th
Floor.
Here's CE484, showing the cart/truck and soda bottle:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce484.jpg
Early news reports just after the assassination erroneously were
reporting that the assassin had been "snacking on a chicken lunch"
just before shooting President Kennedy....with some reporters going so
far as assuming the assassin had been camped out for "several days" in
the Sniper's Nest prior to performing the evil deed on November 22.
(That one always makes me laugh a tad bit.)
How both elevators came to be stuck on the FIFTH floor just after the
shooting.....
Bonnie Ray Williams, after eating his lunch on the 6th Floor, took the
east elevator down one floor to the 5th Floor to join Jarman and
Norman (although when he started down, Williams said he didn't know if
anyone was on that floor or not, but he thought there might have been,
because he heard someone "walking" around and the windows were "moving
or something").
Harold Norman testified that he and James Jarman took the west
elevator to the fifth floor a short time before the motorcade arrived
in Dealey Plaza.
This is perfectly consistent with Roy Truly's testimony....when Truly
said that both freight elevators were on the fifth floor when he and
Marrion Baker were trying to retrieve one of them around 12:31 to
12:32.
I was thinking about the "elevator" topic just today, in fact, and was
thinking to myself that those stuck elevators on the fifth floor were
indirectly responsible for Oswald almost getting caught coming down
the stairs. Because if one of the elevators had been available to
Truly and Baker, they would not have needed to take the stairs and
would have, instead, gone straight to the seventh floor by elevator
(seeing as how Baker thought the shots had come from the roof of the
building...via the pigeons flying off the roof).
Final analysis.....
When all available evidence is weighed and considered, it can be
reasonably determined that nobody (except Lee Harvey Oswald) occupied
the 6th Floor of the Book Depository at the exact time of JFK's
murder.
eca...@tx.rr.com
Thanx,
MR ;~D
David Von Pein
By all accounts, it appears that Lee Harvey Oswald's request for an
elevator to be sent back up to him on the 6th Floor of the TSBD around
12:00 Noon on November 22nd was not granted.
Five TSBD employees raced the Book Depository's two freight elevators
from the 6th Floor to the 1st Floor at noontime on 11/22/63, with Lee
Oswald being the lone employee up on the sixth floor to not join this
group of five.
The five employees were: Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Charles Givens,
Bonnie Ray Williams, and Danny Arce.
Four of these five employees acknowledged the fact that Oswald yelled
down to the boys for an elevator to be sent back up, but none of the
employees actually verified that an elevator WAS sent back up to
Oswald.
Williams, in his Warren Commission testimony, said "I don't know what
happened after that", indicating that he didn't know if an elevator
was sent back up or not.
And this testimony from Charles Givens leads to the conclusion that an
elevator was never sent back up to LHO:
CHARLES GIVENS -- "I was getting ready on the elevator, and I say,
'Boy, are you going downstairs?'"
DAVID BELIN -- "What did he say to you?"
GIVENS -- "I say, 'It's near lunch time'. He said, 'No, sir. When you
get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator'. That meant the
elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will
come up by itself."
BELIN -- "What else did he say?"
GIVENS -- "That is all."
BELIN -- "What did you say to that? Did you say you would close the
elevator gate, or not say anything?"
GIVENS -- "I said, 'Okay', and got on the elevator."
BELIN -- "Do you know whether or not when you got down to the first
floor, the west elevator was there?"
GIVENS -- "No, sir, it wasn't; because I looked over there to close
the gate and it wasn't there."
BELIN -- "It wasn't there when you got down to the first floor?"
GIVENS -- "No, sir; it wasn't."
BELIN -- "Do you know where it was?"
GIVENS -- "No, sir; I don't."
~~~~~~~~~
What is interesting about Givens' testimony shown above (in a
"confusing" fashion) is that Givens says all of the above occurred
only AFTER Givens went back up to the sixth floor to retrieve his
jacket and cigarettes (which he had forgotten on his first trip
downstairs on the elevators with the other employees).
So, either Oswald TWICE asked Givens to send an elevator back up to
him -- or Givens is mistaken about exactly when Oswald made his
elevator request.
But, either way, it would seem that Oswald never did get that elevator
sent back up to him....an elevator that Oswald probably wanted to
freeze on his sixth floor so that he'd have a quick escape route off
of the Death Floor just after shooting at the President.
But, instead, Lee was forced to take the stairs at the very back of
the building....because he obviously wasn't going to just wait around
for an elevator to arrive on his floor just after he had fired a
series of bullets at the President of the United States from that very
same sixth floor.
But I always had the impression that an elevator WAS sent back up to
Oswald. (Perhaps this impression is merely an "impression", similar to
many of the "CT myths" that have been foisted upon us over the years
since '63.) ;)
Interestingly, however, the excellent (excellent, excellent!! Worthy
of three "excellents", IMO) 1964 David L. Wolper-produced documentary
film on the JFK assassination ("FOUR DAYS IN NOVEMBER") implies that
an elevator was sent back up to Oswald on the sixth floor.*
* = I think the exact verbiage in the movie (via actor Richard
Basehart's narration) is .... "Oswald even arranges for a fellow
worker to send the elevator back up".
Although that verbiage doesn't really verify that an elevator WAS, in
fact, sent back up. The words in the film, to be perfectly technical,
merely indicate that Oswald took measures to "arrange" for a fellow
worker to send an elevator back up to him. Whether that "arrangement"
materialized or not, the film stops short of saying.
I put a lot of trust in a Wolper documentary for accuracy. YMMV on
that, but I love Wolper programs....another great one from that same
year as "Four Days" is Wolper's haunting and poignant documentary on
Marilyn Monroe ("THE LEGEND OF MARILYN MONROE").
In Wolper's "Four Days", which I've watched countless times and have
yet to tire of it, I think I have found only one factual error....and
it was a minor one.
I'd recommend those two David Wolper films highly. Excellent music
scores accompany each of those motion pictures as well.
=========================================
"FOUR DAYS IN NOVEMBER" (1964):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.video/msg/5093634b419405d5
"THE LEGEND OF MARILYN MONROE" (1964):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/discussions/start-thread.html/ref=cm_rdp_dp/002-2065385-6525668?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00005RDRQ&authorID=A1FDW1SPYKB354&store=yourstore&reviewID=R3T7KHKEKLUNN5&displayType=ReviewDetail
=========================================
Bud
David Von Pein wrote:
> Once again, we have a CTer misrepresenting what someone has said.
> (Specter, anyone??)
>
> Bud never said there were TSBD workers working on the 6th Floor AT THE
> TIME JFK WAS SHOT.
He knows that, hes just trying to provoke a reaction now. hes just
another uninformed member of the majority the kooks are so proud to
hold. Excellent synopsis of "flooring crew" information though (and in
the other posts on the subject). Maybe the information will help him
to at least construct more plausible kook scenarios.
RICLAND
Yes, it was a good piece of writing and I'm stunned DVP wrote it. It
seems when he stops playing the clown he actually has something to add
to the discussion.
ricland
aeffects
> ecag...@tx.rr.com wrote:
> > A SIX STAR POST DVP!!
> > Thanx,
> > MR ;~D
>
> Yes, it was a good piece of writing and I'm stunned DVP wrote it. It
> seems when he stops playing the clown he actually has something to add
> to the discussion.
DVP is the best the Nutter's have, daBugliosi is Davey's man,
breakfast, lunch and dinner! Dave does write a mean oldtime TV show
internet based reviews, not bad with baseball related matters, either.
We're being prepped for daBugliosi's forthcoming **tome**
Rest of the Lone Nutter's around here are keeping the City of Dallas
PR image intact... they're the distraction-sideshow --
RICLAND
> Once again, we have a CTer misrepresenting what someone has said.
> (Specter, anyone??)
>
> Bud never said there were TSBD workers working on the 6th Floor AT THE
> TIME JFK WAS SHOT.
>
> Here's what Bud said exactly......
fine, now let's address the question of the supposed photo of lovelady
standing in the door of SBD. By all indications, that's Oswald.
ricland
aeffects
> David Von Pein wrote:
> > Once again, we have a CTer misrepresenting what someone has said.
> > (Specter, anyone??)
>
> > Bud never said there were TSBD workers working on the 6th Floor AT THE
> > TIME JFK WAS SHOT.
>
> He knows that, hes just trying to provoke a reaction now. hes just
> another uninformed member of the majority the kooks are so proud to
> hold. Excellent synopsis of "flooring crew" information though (and in
> the other posts on the subject). Maybe the information will help him
> to at least construct more plausible kook scenarios.
>
gosh.... after the assassination when TSBD employee noses were
counted, were all those temporary 6th floor "workers" present and
accounted for? We wouldn't want to have *OTHER* possible suspect[s]
out there, would we? Rumors abound and testimony is said to exist that
only Oswald was missing....
David Von Pein
Okay. With a "Huh??" response by me the other day when you mentioned
something about Lovelady & Oswald (which I think was written by you in
an unintentional juxtaposed manner), I was asking for a clarification,
but never got one specifically. But I thought you probably meant the
"Oswald In Doorway" thing.
To be (kinda) brief.......
It's definitely NOT Lee Harvey Oswald in that doorway. That was proven
many different ways....including via photo analysis, but the BEST
evidence for the "Doorway Man" being Billy Nolan Lovelady is
LOVELADY'S OWN WORDS, when he verified to the WC in 1964 that it was
HIM (Lovelady) standing in that doorway on 11/22/63. ......
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
~~~~~~~
Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you
on that picture?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?
Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an
arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were
you when the picture was taken?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on
the the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?
Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.
Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
~~~~~~~
Here is CE369 (please note arrow that was drawn BY LOVELADY HIMSELF):
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0495a.htm
~~~~~~~
In addition, if it had actually been Oswald in that doorway, then WHY
DIDN'T OSWALD TELL ANYBODY HE WAS STANDING ON THE STEPS DURING THE
ASSASSINATION?!
He's got a perfect, ironclad, foolproof alibi (with a bunch of
witnesses all around him on the steps) and he says NOTHING about it
after he was arrested?????
Come now...not even the O.J. jury would buy that!!! (And they bought
EVERYTHING, except the truth!) ;)
More on "Doorway Man":
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/lovelady.jpg
=================================
Footnotes......
Jim Garrison and Mark Lane had the audacity to still assert that
"Doorway Man" was, in fact, Lee Oswald many YEARS after the above
testimony was given by Lovelady on April 7th, 1964. THAT always burns
both sides of my toast when I think about it!
Wouldn't a reasonable researcher call that kind of total deception by
Garrison and Lane rather shady and underhanded and "agenda-based"? I
sure would. And shouldn't such OBVIOUS deception and misrepresentation
make just about anything ELSE of a "conspiratorial" nature being
purported by those two men worthy of major skepticism and probable
scoffing by researchers? If not....why not?
Slightly Off-Topic (with a Lovelady/Oswald connection in the middle),
here's a gob of stuff that paints Jim Garrison as the total fraud and
evidence-manipulator he so obviously was right up to the day of his
death:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2317ac73008b3c8a
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9d4772fbe4df0bcd
And Mark Lane did the same thing in "Rush To Judgment" (both book and
film versions):
David Von Pein
Learn the case, David H.
No "temporary" workers were used/hired by Truly/Shelley (et al) for
the floor-laying project. Regular TSBD employees were used to put down
the new flooring, including Williams and (I think) Givens.
lazu...@webtv.net
they all TSBD employees, or were some subcontracted from elsewhere? What
were their names, and their locations immediately after the shooting?
Since they were presumably laying floor, Which end of the floor were
they working on? If at the west end, why weren't all the boxes thus
concentrated on the east end? Recall that the rifle was found in a
cavern of boxes at the west end. And if they were working on the east
end, what about the SN's construction? Did LHO do that all in the last
few minutes prior to the shooting? Seems a little unlikely. Besides, his
prints were not all over those boxes, as they would have to be. The post
assassination photos don't show the boxes concentrated in any particular
area on the floor, just scattered throughout, except of course for the
SN. Hell of a way to run a floor crew. Or is there something I'm missing
here?
Old Laz
David Von Pein
You're missing something. And the "something" can easily be fact-
checked by merely looking up the WC testimony of the floor-laying
crew. Charlie Givens and (especially) Bonnie Ray Williams gave
detailed testimony about the floor-laying project. Let's look:
DAVID BELIN. What were you doing on November 22?
CHARLES GIVENS. We were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on
the floor.
Mr. BELIN. What floor would this have been on?
Mr. GIVENS. Sixth.
Mr. BELIN. What part of the sixth floor?
Mr. GIVENS. We were working. on the west end.
~~~~~~
JOE BALL. And how long did you work at that place {the TSBD on Elm
Street}?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I worked there until business began to get slow. I
think that was--it was before November. I think it was some time
during October. I am not sure.
Mr. BALL. And what did they put you to work at at that time?
Mr. WILLIAMS. They called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth
floor, they wanted more boards over it. As I say, business was slow,
and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time.
So I was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood.
Mr. BALL. You were laying a wood floor over the old floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. On the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move
up to the sixth floor. But at the time we didn't complete the sixth
floor. We only completed just a little portion of it.
Mr. BALL. By the time, you are talking about November 22d?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in
the building at Houston and Elm?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the
fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up
there just about 4 weeks, I think.
Mr. BALL. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before how long
have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have
been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days,
approximately 2 days.
Mr. BALL. Before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move
any cartons?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; we did.
Mr. BALL. From what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We moved cartons from, I believe, the west side of the
sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because I think there
was a vacancy in there.
Mr. BALL. Clear over to the east side?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the
east side were there cartons on the floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes; there was.
Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the
floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor.
Then we had to move the cartons. As we go we would move cartons to
vacate the space, so we could lay the floor.