Tippit Shot Close to 1:00 P.M.
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Tippit died at 1:00, not 1:15 Options Track this topic
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William Weston
View Member Profile Mar 12 2006, 02:34 AM Post #1
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The official time of 1:15 for the shooting of J.D. Tippit is an
estimation based on a reconstruction of Oswald’s movements after the
assassination. The timeline is exceptionally tight. If the shooting
occurred earlier, then another culprit was involved. Presented below
is evidence that the true time was 1:00 - a full fifteen minutes
earlier than the official time.
According to the Warren Commission, Oswald left Dealey Plaza at 12:33
and boarded a bus at 12:40. Four minutes later he got off the bus and
went to the Greyhound bus station where he got a taxi cab and went to
Oak Cliff. At 12:54 he got out of the cab and walked to his rooming
house. At 1:00, he surprised his housekeeper, Earlene Roberts, who did
not expect to see him at midday. He went into his room, got his
jacket, and rushed out of the house. Through a window Roberts observed
Oswald standing at a corner, apparently waiting for a bus.
Just as Oswald was getting out of the cab at 12:54, J. D. Tippit
radioed his location at the intersection of Lancaster and Eighth. At
this time the police dispatcher had broadcasted a description of the
suspect of the assassination - slender white male, about 30 years old,
5 feet 10 inches and weighing about 165 pounds, a description that fit
Oswald. About twenty minutes later, at the intersection of 10th and
Patton, Tippit stopped a pedestrian who supposedly fit the suspect’s
description. As Tippit got out of the car, the man pulled out a
handgun and shot Tippit at least four times, killing him instantly.
Shortly afterwards, at 1:16 a citizen called police headquarters on
Tippit’s radio, notifying them of the shooting.
If Oswald was the gunman, he had 12 minutes to walk nine-tenths of a
mile to reach 10th and Patton, which is barely possible. Evidence that
he had less than 12 minutes is provided by Sheriff’s Deputy Roger
Craig in a 1971 autobiographical manuscript. While searching the sixth
floor of the Texas School Book Depository, Craig was among officers
present when someone discovered a rifle. As they examined the rifle,
news of the shooting in Oak Cliff arrived.
“… At that exact moment an unknown Dallas police officer came running
up the stairs and advised Capt. Fritz that a Dallas policeman had been
shot in the Oak Cliff area. I instinctively looked at my watch. The
time was 1:06 p.m. A token force of uniformed officers was left to
keep the sixth floor secure and Fritz, Day, Boone, Mooney, Weitzman
and I left the building. …”
Given Craig’s professional experience, his 1:06 time is reliable.
Nevertheless, two problems arising from his account need resolution.
Craig said that the discovery of the rifle had preceded the
announcement that a policeman was shot. However, according to the
official timeline, the discovery of the rifle occurred at 1:22, six
minutes after the reception of the news of the shooting. If true, than
it disproves Craig’s account.
The solution to the first problem is simple. There were two rifles (at
least) in the Texas School Book Depository. The rifle that Craig saw
was a German Mauser. Shortly after hearing that a police officer was
shot, Craig left the building (along with some other officers) and
returned to the sheriff’s office. At 1:22 uniformed officers who
remained behind found the Mannlicher-Carcano.
The second problem concerns an apparent discrepancy in Craig’s
statements. In March 1968, Penn Jones and the Los Angeles Free Press
interviewed Craig. In response to a question regarding the time of
Tippit’s death, he said “about 1:40.” An excerpt from the interview
follows:
Craig: Tippit went to Oak Cliff, and subsequently was killed. Why he
went to Oak Cliff I can't tell you; I can only make an observation. He
was going to meet somebody.
Free Press: Do you know what time he was killed?
Roger Craig: It was about 1:40 —
Penn Jones: No, I think it was a little before 1:15.
Roger Craig: Was it?
Penn Jones: Yes, Bill Alexander —
Roger Craig: Oh, that's right. The broadcast was put out shortly after
1:15 on Tippit's killer, and it had not been put out yet on Oswald as
the assassin of President Kennedy.
Penn Jones knew that Tippit died instantly. It was therefore correct
to say that Tippit was killed “a little before 1:15.” Craig, on the
other hand, understood the question as referring to what he heard and
saw as he watched events unfold that day. The shooting occurred a
little before 1:15, but the news of Tippit’s death does not appear in
the police radio transcript until 1:32. The dispatcher was relaying an
NBC News Radio report that Tippit was dead on arrival at the Methodist
Hospital. This was not an official announcement. More time elapsed
before someone from the hospital staff confirmed that Tippit was dead
via a telephone call to the police department. The dispatcher did not
pass along this announcement because at that time there was heavy
radio traffic concerning the pursuit of a fugitive into the Texas
Theater. Probably the news arrived at the sheriff’s office via
telephone at 1:40.
Since Craig’s 1:06 time is accurate, the shooting occurred some
minutes before. Evidence that the true time of the shooting was 1:00
is provided by Shirley Martin, a researcher who went to Dallas in
February 1964 and contacted a number of witnesses. The following is an
excerpt from a letter written to Joachim Joesten concerning an
interview of Hugh Aynesworth, Dallas Morning News reporter.
“… It has intrigued me that Aynesworth was so convinced in his
conversation with me that Tippit had been killed around 1 p.m.
Aynesworth is extraordinarily proud of the fact that he is the only
reporter in the United States to have been at all four major scenes
(the assassination, the Tippit killing immediately after, the arrest
of Oswald in the Texas Theater, and the murder of Oswald in the police
basement). When I praised Mr. Aynesworth for this and suggested that
perhaps he should have been considered for the Pulitzer Prize (rather
than Mr. [Merriman] Smith whom Mr. Aynesworth claims does not deserve
the prize as another Dallas reporter did all his, Smith’s, writing for
him), Mr. Aynesworth modestly admitted to an oversight on the part of
the committee, but continued to speak at great length over his four
unique experiences. When I asked Mr. Aynesworth how and when he first
heard about Tippit, he replied: “I was standing near the Texas Book
Building, all the other reporters had gone to Parkland (Hospital), but
I felt a story was breaking near the building, when I heard a squad
radio blast out that a policeman had been shot in Oak Cliff. This was
around one o’clock. I ran to the car and went with it to Patton and
Tenth. I had a hunch that the policeman’s murder was tied in with the
assassination. I got to the Tenth Street area about 1:05, no later
than 1:10 p.m. …” [1]
Years later, Aynesworth gave author Larry Sneed additional details.
[2] He was at the police command post at the corner of Houston and Elm
with Inspector Herbert Sawyer, Sgt. Calvin Owens, Sgt. Gerald Hill,
Assistant District Attorney Bill Alexander, and news reporter Jim
Ewell. As Gerald Hill urged Sawyer to get the crime lab over to the
Texas School Book Depository, the police radio traffic was
interrupted: “This is a citizen. A policeman’s been shot! He’s hurt
pretty bad, I think!” The citizen then gave the location.
If Tippit was shot at precisely 1:00 p.m. and Aynesworth heard the
unknown citizen’s call twoto three minutes later, then Craig’s time of
1:06 represents the time that it took for a messenger from the command
post on the street to reach the search party on the sixth floor.
The unknown citizen’s call at 1:02 or 1:03 does not appear in the
transcript of police radio messages. On the audio recording at
precisely 1:02 there is 30 seconds of noise, indicating an erasure.
About a minute later, at 1:03, the dispatcher attempted to reach
Tippit and got no response.
After receiving the call, Hill, Alexander, and Owens promptly left for
Oak Cliff. Aynesworth went with WFAA-TV newsmen Ron Reiland and Vic
Robertson in the Channel 8 cruiser. Reiland drove the cruiser
recklessly, making a lot of fast moves to pass other cars and
barreling through intersections as fast as he could go, using an
illegal flashing light accessory to warn other drivers. These details
show how the three newsmen managed to reach the scene of the crime
between 1:05 and 1:10. Aynesworth statement to Martin agrees with that
of T.F. Bowley who arrived at the scene at about the same time. He
noted the time as 1:10 on his watch.
Callaway and Guinyard in their affidavits said that Tippit was killed
at 1:00. Virginia Davis said Tippit was killed at 1:30, which is
impossible unless she was thinking of the NBC News Radio announcement.
Helen Markham said the shooting occurred at 1:06, six minutes beyond
the time proposed here. It is possible she may have guessed at the
time based on her usual routine of leaving her apartment at 1:04. If
due to the stress of the day, she left the apartment earlier than
usual without looking at the clock, she may have gotten to the
intersection by 1:00.
Bill Drenas in his article on the Tippit shooting introduces two
incidents indicating that the time was not 1:00, but more towards
1:15. Louis Cortinas, an eighteen-year-old clerk who worked at the Top
Ten Record Shop, said that Tippit entered the shop and tried to make a
call, got no answer, and left in a hurry. Drenas suggests the reason
why the dispatcher got no response to his 1:03 call to Tippit was
because Tippit was inside the record shop. Cortinas said, “Maybe 10,
no more than 10 minutes Tippit had left, when I heard he had been shot
on the radio.” The first report of a policeman being shot in Oak Cliff
was on radio station KLIF at 1:33 P.M. If Cortinas was correct, than
the time of the shooting was 1:23. Obviously, he was inaccurate in his
time estimate. This does not mean that his story was untrue. Tippit
indeed entered the shop and tried to make a call but it was sometime
between 12:30 and 12:54.
Another incident concerns James A. Andrews, an employee of American
National Life Insurance, who worked briefly with Roscoe White.
According to Andrews, he was driving west on Tenth Street about eight
or nine blocks west of Patton “a little after 1:00.” Tippit was also
traveling west on Tenth. He caught up to Andrews, passed him, and
stopped Andrews by cutting in front and parking his squad car at an
angle to the curb. Tippit jumped out of his car, ran back to Andrews’
car, and looked in the space between the front seat and the back seat.
Without saying a word he went back to the patrol car and drove off
quickly. Andrews knew it was Tippit because he saw his nameplate.
Andrews never explained why Tippit stopped him.
Andrews may have seen Tippit just before he was shot, but his “a
little after 1:00” statement does not have the weight to overturn the
statements of such time-conscious professionals as Aynesworth and
Craig. More likely, Andrews saw Tippit “a little before 1:00.”
A 1:00 shooting time solves the apparent contradictions among
witnesses at the scene regarding who made the first call to police
headquarters. Domingo Benavides, a used car lot mechanic, said that
the call was made by his employer, Ted Callaway.
“. . .when Ted Callaway got around there, he opened the car door and
picked up the phone and called in and told them there was an officer
that had been killed. But the officer on the other side of the radio
told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or something of
that sort. …”
According to Callaway:
“… I saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people
that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. Then I saw he had
been shot in the head. So the first thing I did, I ran over to the
squad car. I didn’t know whether anybody reported it or not. So I got
on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been
shot, told them the location, I thought the officer was dead. They
said we know about it [from a telephone call?], and to stay off the
air, so I went back. …”
Since about five or six minutes had passed since Callaway made the
first call, and no police had arrived (although the three newsmen had
arrived), Benavides decided to try the radio.
“… I mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot,
and I didn’t get an answer, so I said it again, and this guy asked me
whereabouts all of a sudden, and I said, on Tenth Street. I couldn’t
remember where it was at the time. So I looked up and I seen this
number and I said 410 East Tenth Street . . . I put the radio back. I
mean, the microphone back up, and this other guy was standing there,
so I got up out of the car, and I don’t know, I wasn’t sure if he
heard me, and the other guy sat down in the car . . . I don’t know
what he said to the officer or the phone, but the officer told him to
keep the line clear. …”
The “other guy” was T. F. Bowley. Benavides was the one who reached
the dispatcher at 1:16. Since Benavides seemed to be mishandling the
microphone, Bowley was the next to try. He reached the dispatcher at
1:18.
The ambulance came about a minute later. Bowley and Callaway helped
the attendants put the body in the ambulance. Immediately afterwards
Callaway took Tippit’s gun and embarked on a hunt for the suspect with
cab driver William Scoggins. Just as the two vigilantes were leaving
in Scoggins’ cab, and before even the ambulance had a chance to get
underway, the police arrived. Officer Kenneth Croy came first in his
own vehicle. He was followed by H. W. Summers and Roy Walker.
1. Joachim Joesten, The Garrison Inquiry (Hills and Lacy, Limited:
London, 1967), pp. 102-103. The letter was written on October 29,
1964.
2. Larry Sneed, No More Silence, An Oral History of the Assassination
of President Kennedy (Three Forks Press: Dallas, TX, 1998), pp.
292-293.
David Von Pein
>>> "Tippit Shot Close to 1:00 P.M." <<<
Yep. 1:14 or 1:15 is relatively "close" to "1:00".
900 seconds, at most, from 1:00 exactly.
========================================================
Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
"Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
the CD-ROM disc.
I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
have.....
"For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
"Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
How he managed to get there on time to do it would only have academic
value. If we didn't know (by reference to the testimony of many
eyewitnesses and firearms evidence) that Oswald killed Tippit, then
Bowley's affidavit would be more relevant. But even then we can't be
sure at all that Bowley was accurate.
"Apart from the improbability that with an officer lying apparently
mortally wounded on the ground, Bowley would want to look at his
watch, we don't know that Bowley's watch was not off by several
minutes, as so many watches are.
"Just one example among countless others: We know the assassination
took place at 12:30 p.m., yet a Dealey Plaza witness, Mrs. Phillip
Willis, said she looked at her watch and "it was 12:35 p.m." (CD 1245,
p.44, FBI interview of Mrs. Willis on June 17, 1964).
"Indeed, if we're going to resort to citing Bowley for when the murder
happened, we can't pick and choose, and Bowley, in the same affidavit,
says that the first thing he did at the scene was to try to help
Tippit, and he suggests that while he was doing this, Benavides was
trying to operate the police radio but couldn't, so he did.
"But we know from Dallas police radio dispatch records that Benavides
didn't start trying to operate the police radio until 1:16 p.m. (which
would prove that Bowley's watch was five to six minutes off), and
Bowley established contact with the police close to 1:18 p.m." -- VB;
Pages 51-52 of "RH" Endnotes
===================
I also took note of this good (and related) observation by VB
regarding Helen Markham's "1:06" timeline for the Tippit murder (which
CTers love to prop up like it was the "Holy Grail Of Timelines")......
"Markham is so confused on the timing that after she gave her
affidavit on the afternoon of Tippit's murder, she told an FBI agent
that the shooting of Tippit took place "around 1:30 p.m." (Interview
of Helen Markham by FBI agent Bardwell D. Odum on November 22, 1963)"
-- VB; Page 52 of "RH" Endnotes
===================
THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 1):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/cbcca847390ffca8
THE MURDER OF DALLAS POLICE OFFICER J.D. TIPPIT (PART 2):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/3959008382f45641
THE TIPPIT MURDER AND THE HILARIOUS DEFENSE OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/85fe573544d89f90
========================================================
curtjester1
scenarioizing forever. Aynesworth corroborates, Craig, Markham,
Bowley, Callaway...and they all corroborate each other. Jack Davis,
and Butch Burroughs, the Texas Theater patron and concessionaire
corroborate Oswald not near that area anyway. Somebody killed Tippit
and left Oswald's calling card in the form of a purposed drop wallet.
Time for a Vinnie Bug's book burning....
CJ
Walt
> >>> "Tippit Shot Close to 1:00 P.M." <<<
>
> Yep. 1:14 or 1:15 is relatively "close" to "1:00".
>
> 900 seconds, at most, from 1:00 exactly.
>
> ========================================================
>
> Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
> "Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
> the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
> order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
>
> For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
> the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
> And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
> bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
> the CD-ROM disc.
>
> I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
> have.....
>
David Von Pea Brain babbled:
"For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
Hey DVP you dumbass, since Tippit was already lying on the street when
Bowley arrived it's academic that he had to have been shot PRIOR to
Bowley's arrival at 1:10.
DVP continues babbling:
"Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
How he managed to get there on time to do it would only have academic
value.
Ha, ha,ha,ha,hee,hee,hee......This is a belly buster... Rotflmao!!
This passes for logic in DVP's little tiny brain.....Quoting Pea
Brain.. "even if Bowley is correct and Tippit was killed at 1:10 or
earlier, it would be irrelevant since we know Oswald killed
him." ......unquote.
Correcting DVP's gibberish..... Obviously Tippit was shot earlier
than 1:10 because Tippit was already lying in the street when Bowley
arrived at 1:10. Bowley wasn't there when Tippit was shot ...he
arrived a few minutes after the shooting.
Even an elementary school kid is smart enough to know that if Tippit
was lying on the street when Bowley arrived then he had to have been
shot before Bowley arrived... Unless DVD is suggesting that Tippit was
simply lying down for a nap and someone came by and shot him as he lay
on the street.
Von Pea Brain's "logic" continues.....Quote..."it would be irrelevant
since we know Oswald killed him." ......unquote.
DVP must be a member of the Dallas PD... because that's the same
"logic" they used
Which is basically the employment of an old axiom.....Don't confuse me
with the facts, my mind's made up.
In DVP's case it isn't truely applicable..... because he doesn't have
a "mind" to work with.
Ben Holmes
Walt says...
>
>On 28 May, 23:25, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>> >>> "Tippit Shot Close to 1:00 P.M." <<<
>>
>> Yep. 1:14 or 1:15 is relatively "close" to "1:00".
>>
>> 900 seconds, at most, from 1:00 exactly.
>>
>> ========================================================
>>
>> Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
>> "Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
>> the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
>> order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
>>
>> For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
>> the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
>> And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
>> bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
>> the CD-ROM disc.
Yet when we point out that Bugliosi DID NOT "cover all the bases," you simply
lie and say he did - without being able to cite any page where he did so.
Tell everyone just *where* in the "end notes" ... or anywhere else... where
Bugliosi dealt with the 16 Smoking Guns...
Sadly, you can't argue that he didn't know about them...
>> I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
>> have.....
>>
>
>David Von Pea Brain babbled:
>
> "For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
>1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
>front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
>2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
>say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
>
>Hey DVP you dumbass, since Tippit was already lying on the street when
>Bowley arrived it's academic that he had to have been shot PRIOR to
>Bowley's arrival at 1:10.
>
>DVP continues babbling:
>
> "Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
> or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
> How he managed to get there on time to do it would only have academic
> value.
>
>Ha, ha,ha,ha,hee,hee,hee......This is a belly buster... Rotflmao!!
ROTFLMAO!!! Absolutely! DVP is at his best as a comedian here...
'Oswald did it, and if the evidence shows he couldn't, then the evidence is
wrong because Oswald did it...'
Do these trolls seriously believe that they are going to convince anyone?
MSwanberg
further, shall we?
Well, we know that Oswald killed Kennedy, and we also know that at the
time of the assassination Oswald was drinking a Coke... so therefore
Oswald killed Kennedy with a Coke!
Or better... Kennedy was killed in the lunchroom because that's where
Oswald was! Every piece of evidence that says that Kennedy was in the
limo is just plain wrong!
Ben, I agree 125% that the idea of attaching blame and then using that
as sacrosanct to say that any evidence to the contrary is incorrect...
well, that's just irresponsible logic.
-Mike
David Von Pein
>>> "Obviously Tippit was shot earlier than 1:10 because Tippit was already lying in the street when Bowley arrived at 1:10." <<<
This is what passes as "solving" the case for kooks like Walter -- a
witness' totally-unconfirmed timing of an event.
Hilarious.
ANYONE who would be stupid enough to TOSS AWAY the mountain of "OSWALD
WAS DEFINITELY ON 10TH ST. SHOOTING OFFICER TIPPIT" evidence due to
some speculative timing differences from witnesses is more than a fool
-- he's a retarded fool!
I guess Walt qualifies as the latter (and has for years).
BTW, I didn't write that Bowley "irrelevant" comment. Vince B. wrote
that in his RH book (and I fully credited VB with that quote).
Bugliosi's right, of course....but I can't take credit for it.
I guess Walt can't comprehend direct quoted book passages now either.
Just one of the many reasons to continue to place the "Kook" banner
above Walter's cranium (in large, neon lights).
David Von Pein
>>> "Well, we know that Oswald killed Kennedy, and we also know that at the time of the assassination Oswald was drinking a Coke...so therefore Oswald killed Kennedy with a Coke! Or better...Kennedy was killed in the lunchroom because that's where Oswald was! Every piece of evidence that says that Kennedy was in the limo is just plain wrong! Ben, I agree 125% that the idea of attaching blame and then using that as sacrosanct to say that any evidence to the contrary is incorrect...well, that's just irresponsible logic." <<<
You're nuts if you think the above type of silly example in any way
applies to Lee Harvey Oswald's obvious guilt in Tippit's murder.
Since we KNOW that there is much, much BETTER EVIDENCE to rely on when
it comes to identifying the person who killed J.D. Tippit than merely
having to rely on subjective and unsupportable "timelines" provided by
witnesses --- e.g., the bullet shells at the crime scene that
POSITIVELY CAME OUT OF THE GUN OSWALD HAD ON HIM WHEN ARRESTED A HALF-
HOUR LATER; plus the positive IDing of LHO by multiple witnesses at or
near the murder scene --- we can therefore disregard ANY of these
subjective and obviously not-completely-accurate "timelines" offered
up by witnesses.
But if you're in the "Anybody But Oswald" gang, I guess the MUCH
BETTER EVIDENCE I was just talking about doesn't hold nearly as much
weight than does Bowley's "1:10" timing, or Markham's supposedly-
perfectly-accurate "1:06" timestamping.
Such is the horrible disadvantage of being an "ABO" conspiracy
theorist. No matter how much reliable, hard evidence is piled up
against the door....the weakest chaff always seems to trump it.
Truly...pitiable.
Ben Holmes
MSwanberg says...
>
>That was exactly what I was thinking... let's take that type of logic
>further, shall we?
>
>Well, we know that Oswald killed Kennedy, and we also know that at the
>time of the assassination Oswald was drinking a Coke... so therefore
>Oswald killed Kennedy with a Coke!
Kennedy drowned... that's why his hands were raising... he was choking on an
overabundance of Coca Cola.
>Or better... Kennedy was killed in the lunchroom because that's where
>Oswald was! Every piece of evidence that says that Kennedy was in the
>limo is just plain wrong!
That explains why the extant Z-film doesn't show the turn on to Elm... they were
carrying his body back into the limo from the TSBD...
>Ben, I agree 125% that the idea of attaching blame and then using that
>as sacrosanct to say that any evidence to the contrary is incorrect...
>well, that's just irresponsible logic.
>
>-Mike
Unfortunately, it's the sort of logic that most people must contend with when
dealing with the infamous "10%" of any group.
I've often likened LNT'ers to the Queen in Alice in Wonderland:
"I can't believe that!" said Alice.
"Can't you?" the Queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again: draw a long breath,
and shut your eyes."
Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said "one can't believe impossible
things."
"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age,
I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as
six impossible things before breakfast."
This is the picture of LNT'ers... simply believe in the impossible, and avoid
facts long enough, and you can uphold your faith in the theory put forth by the
WCR.
David Von Pein
"Only people who subscribe to rules of absurdity, not rules of
life, could possibly believe that a conspiracy to kill [John] Kennedy
ever existed. The conspiracy argument in the Kennedy assassination
requires the belief that for over forty years a great number of people
have been able to keep silent about the plot behind the most important
and investigated murder of the 20th century. In other words, it
requires a belief in the impossible." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Page 1442
of "Reclaiming History" (c.2007)
curtjester1
They were either 'neutralized', or they were afraid of being
neutralized, or they hedged around it,or they said they were hounded,
or they spoke in code, or they just blurted it out. Vinnie just
broadswipes what he won't investgate or won't deal with.
CJ
Walt
Excellent post, Mike..... Using DVP's form of "logic" to use a
preformed idea to reach the conclusion that Oswald was guilty while
disregarding some of the facts, leads to bizarre conclusions, as you
illustrated.
Walt
> >>> "Obviously Tippit was shot earlier than 1:10 because Tippit was already lying in the street when Bowley arrived at 1:10." <<<
This is what passes as "solving" the case for kooks like Walter -- a
witness' totally-unconfirmed timing of an event.
Why must you lie?? Nevermind....I know the answer. You lie because
you are compelled to... There is no other way for you to attempt to
refute the facts.
Here are those facts.....
1) Helen Markham said that she was on her way to catch a 1:12 pm bus
when she saw Tippit shot at about 1:06 pm
2) TF Bowley picked up his daughter at school at about 1:00pm and
drove a few blocks enroute to pick up his wife when he reached 10th
and Patton, where he saw Tippit lying in the street by the left front
wheel of his patrol car. Bowley got out of his car and glanced at his
watch ( checking to see if he was going to be late in picking up his
wife) He noticed that the time was 1:10pm
3) A couple of minutes after arriving on the scene Bowley picked up
Tippit's radio mike and notified the dispatcher that a policeman had
been shot. The time was 1:12pm.
4) Lt JC Day testified that he arrived at the TSBD at 1:12. Detective
Gerald Hill met Lt. Day as he approached the TSBD and informed him
that spent shells had been found on the sixth floor of the TSBD.
While standing near the curb of Elm street in front of the TSBD Hill
heard Bowley's 1:12 message to the police dispatcher, about an officer
having been shot and "I think he's dead".
Now Pea Brain tell me again about ....." a witness' totally-
David Von Pein
Repeating.....
Only an idiot would disregard the BEST evidence of Oswald's guilt in
the Tippit murder (shells, positive witness IDing via multiple people,
Oz's behavior just after the shooting, and Oz having the Tippit murder
weapon ON HIM when arrested) in favor of much WORSE and subjective
evidence (times given by witnesses).
I guess we can consider Walt an "idiot" then, can't we?
Nothing new there though, of course.
tomnln
The shells from the Tippit murder came from THREE (3) Seperate weapons.
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/tippit.htm
(Near bottom of page)
Submitted by the man who TEACHES at the FBI School at Quantico.
"David Von Pein" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:8c6640b3-c29f-46d9...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
David Von Pein
>>> "The shells from the Tippit murder came from THREE (3) Seperate [sic] weapons." <<<
And yet one of the main goals of the whole day's activities was to
frame just a SINGLE "patsy" named Oswald, right?
Brilliant plan....if the patsy-framers were completely brain-dead.
(BTW, you're an idiot. Still.)
Bud
Ben Holmes wrote:
> In article <c9573001-30b7-4f86...@56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com>,
> Walt says...
> >
> >On 28 May, 23:25, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >>> "Tippit Shot Close to 1:00 P.M." <<<
> >>
> >> Yep. 1:14 or 1:15 is relatively "close" to "1:00".
> >>
> >> 900 seconds, at most, from 1:00 exactly.
> >>
> >> ========================================================
> >>
> >> Vince Bugliosi covers the Bowley "1:10" timing in the book's extensive
> >> "Endnotes" section. Many, many very good VB arguments are made within
> >> the Endnotes on the CD-ROM, so those notes are essential reading in
> >> order to get the complete "VB-authored" picture.
> >>
> >> For some reason, though, some readers just flat-out refuse to explore
> >> the 900+ pages of Endnotes on the CD-ROM. (Laziness, I would surmise.)
> >> And then those same readers think that VB hasn't covered all the
> >> bases...when, in actuality, he very likely has touched those bases on
> >> the CD-ROM disc.
>
>
> Yet when we point out that Bugliosi DID NOT "cover all the bases," you simply
> lie and say he did - without being able to cite any page where he did so.
>
> Tell everyone just *where* in the "end notes" ... or anywhere else... where
> Bugliosi dealt with the 16 Smoking Guns...
DVP did show where Bugs addressed the issues raised in those
questions. Denial is all you have.
> Sadly, you can't argue that he didn't know about them...
You think Bug`s book was a "submit your kook questions" exercise?
> >> I've looked up the "Bowley" material on the CD, and here's what we
> >> have.....
> >>
> >
> >David Von Pea Brain babbled:
> >
> > "For years, critics have cited T.F. Bowley's affidavit on December 2,
> >1963, that when he saw Tippit lying on the street next to the left
> >front of his car, he looked at his watch "and it said 1:10 p.m." (CE
> >2003, 24 H 202). So the murder happened at 1:10, or even earlier they
> >say, making it even more difficult for Oswald to have been the killer.
> >
> >Hey DVP you dumbass, since Tippit was already lying on the street when
> >Bowley arrived it's academic that he had to have been shot PRIOR to
> >Bowley's arrival at 1:10.
> >
> >DVP continues babbling:
> >
> > "Of course, even if Bowley is correct, and Tippit was killed at 1:10
> > or earlier, it would be irrelevant, since we know Oswald killed him.
> > How he managed to get there on time to do it would only have academic
> > value.
> >
> >Ha, ha,ha,ha,hee,hee,hee......This is a belly buster... Rotflmao!!
Yes, very funny. But why do you think Bowley`s look at his watch
trumps Markham`s look at the shooter`s face?
> ROTFLMAO!!! Absolutely! DVP is at his best as a comedian here...
>
> 'Oswald did it, and if the evidence shows he couldn't, then the evidence is
> wrong because Oswald did it...'
The kook version is that any evidence that indicates Oswald`s
involvment is faked.
> Do these trolls seriously believe that they are going to convince anyone?
No. But reading Bugliosi`s book affords them the opportunity to draw
the correct conclusions about this evnt. He makes it clear that it
could not have gone down any other way but the official "lone nut"
conclusion. Kook inability to put up to put up a contending
explaination that doesn`t require the impossibility of all types of
people cutting across all walks of life working with seemless
precision and perfect harmony against an innocent man.
Bud
MSwanberg wrote:
> That was exactly what I was thinking... let's take that type of logic
> further, shall we?
>
> Well, we know that Oswald killed Kennedy, and we also know that at the
> time of the assassination Oswald was drinking a Coke...
What would member of the motorcade protecting the President be on
the 2nd floor of the TSBD at the time of the murder?
>so therefore
> Oswald killed Kennedy with a Coke!
>
> Or better... Kennedy was killed in the lunchroom because that's where
> Oswald was! Every piece of evidence that says that Kennedy was in the
> limo is just plain wrong!
>
> Ben, I agree 125% that the idea of attaching blame and then using that
> as sacrosanct to say that any evidence to the contrary is incorrect...
> well, that's just irresponsible logic.
You think that there should be no contrary evidence in a murder
case? What do you base this expectation on?
> -Mike
Bud
He won`t gobble up that kook fodder you feast on at those kook
sites. Those places are run by idiots, for idiots.
>
> CJ
Bud
Ben Holmes wrote:
> In article <2ef5cbe8-3588-4ead...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
> MSwanberg says...
> >
> >That was exactly what I was thinking... let's take that type of logic
> >further, shall we?
> >
> >Well, we know that Oswald killed Kennedy, and we also know that at the
> >time of the assassination Oswald was drinking a Coke... so therefore
> >Oswald killed Kennedy with a Coke!
>
> Kennedy drowned... that's why his hands were raising... he was choking on an
> overabundance of Coca Cola.
I guess the think here is that if Kato saw OJ at Rockingham, he
could not have committed the murder at Bundy.
> >Or better... Kennedy was killed in the lunchroom because that's where
> >Oswald was! Every piece of evidence that says that Kennedy was in the
> >limo is just plain wrong!
>
>
> That explains why the extant Z-film doesn't show the turn on to Elm... they were
> carrying his body back into the limo from the TSBD...
Not the worst idea I`ve seen advanced by kooks.
> >Ben, I agree 125% that the idea of attaching blame and then using that
> >as sacrosanct to say that any evidence to the contrary is incorrect...
> >well, that's just irresponsible logic.
> >
> >-Mike
>
> Unfortunately, it's the sort of logic that most people must contend with when
> dealing with the infamous "10%" of any group.
I don`t think the number of people who think Oswald wasn`t involved
in Kennedy`s death is that high.
> I've often likened LNT'ers to the Queen in Alice in Wonderland:
>
> "I can't believe that!" said Alice.
>
> "Can't you?" the Queen said in a pitying tone. "Try again: draw a long breath,
> and shut your eyes."
>
> Alice laughed. "There's no use trying," she said "one can't believe impossible
> things."
>
> "I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was your age,
> I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as
> six impossible things before breakfast."
>
> This is the picture of LNT'ers... simply believe in the impossible, and avoid
> facts long enough, and you can uphold your faith in the theory put forth by the
> WCR.
What kook theory requires is the impossible. Too much effort
against Oz, coming from all directions, and you can show any of the
mechanics, logistics or coordination. Just assuming it all occurred
isn`t good enough, you have to show it.
tomnln
>
>
>>>> "The shells from the Tippit murder came from THREE (3) Seperate [sic]
>>>> weapons." <<<
>
>
> And yet the main idea of the whole day's activities was designed to
> frame just a SINGLE "patsy" named Oswald, right?
>
> Brilliant plan....if the patsy-framers were completely brain-dead.
>
> (BTW, you're an idiot. Still.)
They TRIED to frame one man....Oswald.
The evidence does NOT support that claim.
ps;
Thanks for the insult;
it gives me another opportunity to remind people that You're a "child
molester."
it gives me another opportunity to remind people that You're a
"KOOK-SUCKER".
PPS;
We KNEW you would RUN from official Reports.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------.
tomnln
We all KNEW you would RUN from official records David.
BTW;
You're STILL a KOOK-SUCKER.
curtjester1
about 150 feet away? Don't forget the beginning of the thread Bud,
with Aynesworth, Andrews, Callaway, and Day making some timeboggling
statements that seem to corroborate Mrs. Markham's time as well as
Mr.Bowley's.
What did they do, wake you up out of a deep sleep at FBI
headquarters? You better call your boss, the one who usually comes a
day or two behind you, The Big Mutt.
CJ
> > >> ========================================================- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
aeffects
there he goes again, quoting himself, of course.....
Bud
Of course this factor could never be used to determine which
information was reliable. And Oswald moved closer to Markham after
shooting Tippit.
> Don't forget the beginning of the thread Bud,
> with Aynesworth, Andrews, Callaway, and Day making some timeboggling
> statements that seem to corroborate Mrs. Markham's time as well as
> Mr.Bowley's.
We have the police tapes, with the times.
> What did they do, wake you up out of a deep sleep at FBI
> headquarters? You better call your boss, the one who usually comes a
> day or two behind you, The Big Mutt.
Do you have a theory that we are both the same person?
curtjester1
but still quite away? And with her hands covering her eyes?
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ce523.gif
> > Don't forget the beginning of the thread Bud,
> > with Aynesworth, Andrews, Callaway, and Day making some timeboggling
> > statements that seem to corroborate Mrs. Markham's time as well as
> > Mr.Bowley's.
>
> We have the police tapes, with the times.
>
This is better, Bud. We don't have to rely on what they might need
those police tapes to say. And do you mean the ones with the
splices? I believe there is a lot of watches that must be wrong that
day. How many, Bud...5 watches, 10 watches, the watch they had the
death certificate as marked 1:15?
> > What did they do, wake you up out of a deep sleep at FBI
> > headquarters? You better call your boss, the one who usually comes a
> > day or two behind you, The Big Mutt.
>
> Do you have a theory that we are both the same person?
>
No, better yet, I have a theory you might be from the same Field
Office.
CJ
Bud
I used the word "closer", and it was accurate.
> And with her hands covering her eyes?
How do you know Bowley`s eyes were open when he looked at his
watch?
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ce523.gif
>
> > > Don't forget the beginning of the thread Bud,
> > > with Aynesworth, Andrews, Callaway, and Day making some timeboggling
> > > statements that seem to corroborate Mrs. Markham's time as well as
> > > Mr.Bowley's.
> >
> > We have the police tapes, with the times.
> >
> This is better, Bud.
The best, Curt.
> We don't have to rely on what they might need
> those police tapes to say. And do you mean the ones with the
> splices?
Yah, probably some conspiracy monger inserted the part where they
say the shells found were from an automatic. But the rest is solid,
the times are provided often and throughout.
> I believe there is a lot of watches that must be wrong that
> day. How many, Bud...5 watches, 10 watches, the watch they had the
> death certificate as marked 1:15?
Tippit probably did die close to that time.
> > > What did they do, wake you up out of a deep sleep at FBI
> > > headquarters? You better call your boss, the one who usually comes a
> > > day or two behind you, The Big Mutt.
> >
> > Do you have a theory that we are both the same person?
> >
> No, better yet, I have a theory you might be from the same Field
> Office.
Of course you do.
> CJ
>
> >
> >
> > > CJ
> >
> > > > > ROTFLMAO!!! �Absolutely! �DVP is at his best as a comedian here...
> >
> > > > > 'Oswald did it, and if the evidence shows he couldn't, then the evidence is
> > > > > wrong because Oswald did it...'
> >
> > > > � The kook version is that any evidence that indicates Oswald`s
> > > > involvment is faked.
> >
> > > > > Do these trolls seriously believe that they are going to convince anyone?
> >
> > > > � No. But reading Bugliosi`s book affords them the opportunity to draw
> > > > the correct conclusions about this event. He makes it clear that it
aaronhi...@yahoo.com
came over the radio of Tippitt being shot. He looked at his watch.
1:06 p.m.
Aaron Hirshberg