ABC's 2003 POLL ON THE KENNEDY ASSASSINATION
David Von Pein
VIA ANOTHER JFK FORUM.....
DVP SAID:
Per a 2003 ABC poll (which included twice the number of respondents
than the Gallup Poll), only 7% of people asked thought that Oswald was
completely innocent (i.e., only 7 of every 100 think that Oswald
didn't fire a shot at JFK).
Compared to the paranoid fringe that appear on Internet sites, that's
quite a difference. Because probably better than 85% of those paranoid
kooks seem to think Oswald never fired a shot.
2003 poll:
www.pollingreport.com/news2.htm#Kennedy
PAT SPEER THEN SAID:
David, your interpretation of the poll results is incorrect, and
reflects an obvious bias. Although only 7% of conspiracy theorists
thought that Oswald was "not involved"[,] that by no means means the
rest thought he was a shooter. The majority of conspiracy theorists
believe he was involved on some level; some believe he was a lookout,
others believe he was infiltrating the plot on behalf of an
intelligence organization. Only a minority believe he fired a shot at
Kennedy.
DVP THEN SAID:
Yes, it does mean exactly that...because of the specific way ABC News
worded that particular question.
Better look again. 83% of the 1,031 people polled think Oswald was
definitely firing a gun at JFK via that "gunman" polling question:
www.pollingreport.com/news2.htm#Kennedy
NICK KENDRICK THEN SAID:
As usual, David is right and you [Pat Speer] are wrong.
Question, ABC news poll, November 5-9th, 2003.
"Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald was the only gunman in the Kennedy
assassination, do you think there was another gunman in addition to
Oswald there that day, or do you think Oswald was not involved in the
assassination at all?"
Only Oswald - 32% (All of them CIA, presumably - NSR)
Another Gunman - 52% [it was actually 51%]
Oswald Not Involved - 7%
No Opinion - 10%
Source: http://www.pollingreport.com/news2.htm#Kennedy
Plainly, the question is phrased so that people who (are insane enough
to) believe that Oswald was a "lookout" or a "government operative"
but (are insane enough to) believe that Oswald didn´t fire a single
shot, would answer "Oswald not involved". The figure for those who
(are insane enough to) believe Oswald wasn´t involved is clear - an
unlucky seven percent. When it comes to sheer arrogance and pomposity,
patspeer, you take the cake. You owe David an apology and you owe
yourself a reality check - either Oswald was innocent, which goes
against all the evidence, or he acted alone.
PAT SPEER THEN SAID:
Here is the question, David:
"Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald was the only gunman in the Kennedy
assassination, do you think there was another gunman in addition to
Oswald there that day, or do you think Oswald was not involved in the
assassination at all?"
By asking whether or not "Oswald was not involved in the assassination
at all" as opposed to the more logical third alternative "Oswald was
not a shooter on 11-22-63"[,] the question becomes blurred. The words
"at all" bit extend way beyond merely shooting.
FWIW: There is a book called "Tainting Evidence" which deals with this
very phenomena--the skewing of poll results via adding bits like "at
all" at the end of the question.
Over the years, I have discussed the Kennedy assassination with at
least 1,000 people beyond those I've met online or at conventions. The
vast majority have no real opinion on the assassination; many saw
[Oliver Stone's] JFK and were half-convinced but then saw the ABC or
the Discovery Channel and were half-convinced, etc. IMO, this
represents the bulk of Americans. Most of them--rightly or wrongly--
have doubts that Oswald could have fired the shots. A large
percentage--perhaps a majority--believe he was involved in some way,
however.
So, bottom line. You are correct to point out that the number of
people thinking Oswald was some innocent guy framed because he was a
leftist is small. But you are totally incorrect if you think the vast
majority of Americans think Oswald shot Kennedy.
NICK KENDRICK THEN SAID:
Now now, Pat Speer, it's very simple - David was right, and you were
(once again) wrong. Pompously, arrogantly and stupidly wrong. That's
all there is to it.
Naturally, I didn't really expect you to have the class to apologize
to David, but at the very least, you could have avoided compounding
your stupidity.
Oh well.
PAT SPEER THEN SAID:
Geez, Louise. Let's be CLEAR about this. David and Nick (assuming
they're not the same person--ha) are now BOTH claiming that 93% of
Americans think Oswald shot Kennedy. Is this right?
If so, I suggest they both get out a little bit, and talk to people
other than themselves (ha).
DVP THEN SAID:
Again, Pat Speer misses the boat (and point). I was talking about the
SPECIFIC POLL done by ABC News in Nov. 2003.
And that's a poll (whether you like its results or not) that shows,
undeniably, that 83% (not 93%, because 10% had "no opinion" one way or
the other) of the respondents--which numbered 1,031 people, twice the
number of the Gallup Poll, btw--were of the opinion that Lee Harvey
Oswald was firing a gun at JFK on 11/22/63.
Live with it, Pat.
www.pollingreport.com/news2.htm#Kennedy
PAT SPEER THEN SAID:
Weak sauce, David. You prop up a poll with misleading data and then
run from it when I ask you to say you believe what it implied.
Once again...It was a flawed poll because it had a flawed question.
Think of it in the reverse. If the same group of people had been asked
if they 1) thought the Warren Commission deliberately misled the
public, or 2) thought the Warren Commission told the truth ABOUT
EVERYTHING, how many do you think could bring themselves to go along
with #2? Almost no one, right?
It is the use of the absolute that steers the vote. Same thing with
the ABC poll. By saying "not involved at all"[,] the pollsters knew
damn well they were steering their subjects in the opposite direction.
DVP THEN SAID:
Pat, you must be totally blind not to recognize that the first two
parts of the question (within that particular 2003 ABC Poll question
being discussed here) have the word "GUNMAN" in them:
1.) "Do you think Lee Harvey Oswald was the only gunman in the Kennedy
assassination."
2.) "Do you think there was another gunman in addition to Oswald there
that day."
32% of the 1,031 people responding voted for #1 above, while another
51% said #2 was their choice.
Which means, by definition, Pat, that 83% total thought that Oswald
was, indeed, shooting at Kennedy.
You cannot slide by those figures and pretend that that 83% really
didn't understand the question or utilize some other excuse to skew
the plain-as-day figures regarding the "GUNMAN" topic in the JFK
assassination.
The fact is that more than 8 out of every 10 of those respondents said
they thought that Oswald was either the lone gunman in Dallas or that
Oswald was one of the gunmen -- hence, the words "ANOTHER GUNMAN" in
the wording of the second part of that particular question.
And since the words "ANOTHER GUNMAN" are followed by the words "IN
ADDITION TO OSWALD" in the wording of the poll's question, those
respondents who fall into that "Another Gunman" category are telling
ABC News that Oswald was ONE OF THE GUNMEN they thought were shooting
at President Kennedy.
Get it now, Pat? Or should we dance around this Mulberry bush a few
more times before the obviousness of this whole thing sinks in?
www.pollingreport.com/news2.htm#Kennedy
ABC'S 2003 ASSASSINATION POLL -- 83% THINK OSWALD WAS SHOOTING AT JFK:
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/c0189f6da4be3133
"BOOGIE KNIGHT" THEN SAID:
Pat, once again proving that a self-taught man has an idiot for both a
teacher and a student, is showing that polling, like other topics such
as "science" and "forensics", is just beyond his grasp.
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Source -- IMDB.com:
www.imdb.com/title/tt0102138/board/flat/128662388
www.imdb.com/title/tt0102138/board/threads
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http://www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
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David Von Pein
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/7c280d9b25ca6a96
>>> "I see your point, David, but I assure you that the [2003 ABC News poll] question is deceptive." <<<
Well, your "assurance" doesn't mean much.
>>> "If asked, point blank, "Do you believe Lee Harvey Oswald shot John F. Kennedy?"[,] do you REALLY believe 83% of those asked would say "yes"[?]" <<<
Yes. Absolutely.
But you don't need my opinion on that matter, because we have the
results of just such a "Do You Think LHO Shot JFK?" inquiry in black-
and-white via the ABC News poll from 2003:
www.pollingreport.com/news2.htm#Kennedy
The "gunman" question in that ABC poll couldn't be any clearer, with
ABC asking those 1,031 people if they thought Oswald was the "ONLY
GUNMAN" or if there was "ANOTHER GUNMAN IN ADDITION TO OSWALD" or if
Oswald was "NOT INVOLVED IN THE ASSASSINATION AT ALL".
I think you're probably confusing the answer you'd get from kooks at
Internet forums like this one with the answer you'd get to that
question from the vast majority of Americans who don't frequent pro-
conspiracy Internet boards.
The Anybody-But-Oswald nuts that are abundant online certainly do not
reflect the thinking of the majority of America.
Probably 85% of the kooks online think Oswald never fired a shot. But,
as the ABC poll demonstrates, the majority of people in the mainstream
who have an opinion on the subject believe Oswald was firing a gun at
JFK.
That doesn't mean, however, that that same mainstream doesn't believe
in a conspiracy, as these numbers from the exact same 2003 ABC News
poll readily suggest:
"Do you feel the Kennedy assassination was the work of one man, or was
it part of a broader plot?":
One Man -- 22%
Broader Plot -- 70%
No Opinion -- 8%
Also, let me add this:
You, Pat Speer, seem to think the ABC poll's "gunman" question is
deceptive and misleading. But let me ask you this:
If the 83% of people who comprise the first two categories of that
"gunman" question really DIDN'T believe that Oswald was a "gunman" at
all, then why on Earth would they have responded the way they did to
that poll's question (which, as I said, couldn't be any clearer with
respect to the first two segments of that inquiry, with the word
"gunman" appearing in both segments)?
Why would 83% say that LHO was a gunman if a certain percentage of
those respondents really DIDN'T believe such a thing?
I'll leave you to sort out my last question in your own mind.
lazu...@webtv.net
conspiracy.Can you get it through your cement head there are good
reasons why people don't believe the magic bullet theory,why they
believe someone fired from the knoll, why they believe Oswald had
intelligence connections???...with the garbage the Establishment media
has foisted on us since the day of the Assassination, endless specials
usually timed for the anniversaries with the latest disinfo, getting the
network's producers seal of approval, and such well respected Newsman as
Cronkite, Sevareid,Huntley, brinkley etc. all buying it, you know there
must be something seriously wrong with the oswald did it alone story
that doesn't wash with the folks. Ya think?????????? Hello???????
David Von Pein
Another kook misses the point. What a shock.
David Von Pein
>>> "The point is the majority of people have always believed there was a conspiracy." <<<
I guess Laz The Kook must've missed it when I said this earlier:
Walt
There's no doubt in my mind that the Government's propaganda machine
has influenced many people who are casually interested in the murder
of President Kennedy. I witnessed many of that type of person in the
sixth floor museum a couple of weeks ago. Most of them were their
because they are curious, and suspictious. They have no real
knowledge about the murder, but they instinctively know that something
stinks. They're not willing to go so far as to claim their
government covered up the truth...they feel much more comfortable with
the idea that the conspirators were so clever that they fooled all of
the investigators. Of course if they were better educated about the
murder, they would know that the "investigators" did NOT
investigate.
Bud
> The point is the majority of people have always believed there was a
> conspiracy.
The point also is that the majority does not believe what you kooks
do. They think Oswald was shooting at Kennedy.
>Can you get it through your cement head there are good
> reasons why people don't believe the magic bullet theory
Perhaps because conspiracy mongers early on were showing them
diagrams with the bullet zig-zagging in space.
>,why they
> believe someone fired from the knoll, why they believe Oswald had
> intelligence connections???...with the garbage the Establishment media
> has foisted on us since the day of the Assassination, endless specials
> usually timed for the anniversaries with the latest disinfo,
You have to get used to that idea that any applications of actual
science in this case will favor the lone gunman position. This doesn`t
happen because of some multi-generational conspiracy amongst tens of
thousand of people (impossibly all keeping silent about their roles),
this only exists in your retarded imagination.
Bud
I`ve never seen a poll about the assassination that doesn`t leave
me with more questions than answers. They never seem to ask the right
questions, and this one here is typical. Why not say "Oswald Alone"
instead of "One Man"? What does "Broader Plot" mean? Is Oswald part of
this broader plot? The problem seems to be that the polls require
categories, and the categories are usually poorly defined. I`d be
interested in what Americans actually do think about this event, and I
can`t really determine this from most polls. Kooks are content to
misuse, misconstrue and misunderstand the poll results in their usual
"this is all I need to know" manner, as if a vague feeling that
something fishy went on translates into vindication of their position.
But when it comes down to specifics, more of the public seems to
believe in the WC`s conclusions than what the kooks in these
newsgroups believe. Even "conspiracy" is too vague, does it mean a
group planning Kennedy`s death, or a cover-up afterwards? You can have
one, neither or both.
Trying to think of the poll I would like to see. Something like...
Who planned and carried out Kennedy`s murder?
Oswald alone?
Oswald with a group?
A group that didn`t include Oswald?
An individual who was not Oswald?