Re: LEE HARVEY OSWALD, HIS RIFLE, AND THE PAPER BAG
David Von Pein
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/thread/f990c8781f3d8b38/a03a7224c4574038?#a03a7224c4574038
>>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
2.) An EMPTY 38-INCH-LONG PAPER BAG with two of Oswald's prints on it
was found under the same window from where OSWALD'S RIFLE positively
fired three bullets at President Kennedy.
3.) The lengthiest part of OSWALD'S RIFLE, when broken down, was 34.8
inches. So it could definitely fit inside the 38-inch PAPER BAG found
near the sniper's window.
4.) Oswald carried a long-ish and bulky PAPER BAG into the TSBD on
11/22/63.
5.) Oswald lied about the contents of that PAPER BAG to fellow worker
Buell Wesley Frazier.
6.) Oswald also lied when he told the police he did not carry any kind
of a large PAPER BAG into the Depository Building on November 22nd.
7.) Oswald also lied when he told the police that he had not recently
said anything at all to fellow worker Buell Wesley Frazier about
"curtain rods".
8.) Following the President's assassination, no curtain rods were
discovered in the Book Depository [CE2640]:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0465a.htm
9.) OSWALD'S RIFLE was not found in its known storage location (Ruth
Paine's garage in Irving, Texas) on the afternoon of November 22nd.
Lee Oswald, of course, spent the previous night (Nov. 21) at the Paine
house, and had easy access to the garage where he knew his rifle was
being stored.
10.) Ruth Paine discovered that someone had left the light on in the
garage at some point prior to approximately 9:00 PM CST on Thursday,
November 21st. Ruth was certain that she, herself, had not left the
light on, and Ruth was also fairly certain that Marina Oswald had not
left the light on either. It was Ruth's belief that the person who had
been in her garage prior to 9:00 PM on Nov. 21 and had not turned out
the light upon exiting the garage was Lee Harvey Oswald.
When a reasonable and sensible person adds up #1 through #10 above,
the answer becomes quite obvious. In fact, the answer couldn't be more
obvious -- Lee Oswald wrapped his own rifle in a handmade 38-inch
brown paper bag and carried that paper package containing his rifle
out of the Paine residence on the morning of November 22, 1963.
Lee H. Oswald then took that rifle package into his workplace at the
TSBD, unwrapped the rifle in private at some point prior to 12:30 PM,
assembled his rifle (which is reasonable to assume he knew how to do
without much difficulty or painstaking effort), secreted himself as
best he could in the southeast corner of the sixth floor (aided by the
shield of book cartons that Oswald himself had fashioned that same
morning), and shot and killed JFK when he drove down Elm Street at
12:30 PM.
For goodness sake, this is second-grade math we're dealing with here
concerning the rifle and the bag. ANY other explanation regarding
those two objects is laughable when compared to the scenario I just
laid out above.
Any alternate scenario must explain away many different things (things
that all FIT TOGETHER like a well-fitting glove via the 10-point
scenario I talked about above), such as:
1.) The need to explain away the FACT that Oswald's rifle was missing
from its known storage location on the same day the President was
killed via rifle fire that came from the same building where Lee
Oswald worked and from where three bullets from OSWALD'S RIFLE were
fired (via the three spent shells from OSWALD'S RIFLE found under the
sniper's window).
2.) If Lee Harvey Oswald didn't take his rifle to work in that large-
ish paper bag on 11/22/63, then when did he (or somebody else) take
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 into the Book Depository?
Prior to November 21, the last time Oswald was at Ruth Paine's house
was the weekend of November 8-11, 1963, which was more than one full
week before the President's motorcade route through Dallas was even
finalized or announced in the Dallas papers.
The earliest that Oswald could have known for sure that his workplace
would be a good and viable location for attempting to assassinate
President Kennedy was Tuesday morning, November 19th, when the details
of the motorcade route (including the Houston-to-Elm turn that would
take JFK's limousine directly in front of the TSBD) were printed in
the Dallas Morning News [CE1363]:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0323a.htm
It stands to reason, therefore, that Oswald probably did not remove
his rifle from Ruth Paine's garage prior to 11/19/63. And the only
possible dates after November 19th that he could have conceivably
retrieved his rifle from that location in Irving, Texas, were November
21-22.
3.) Conspiracy theorists also need to somehow explain away the
devastatingly-incriminating evidence against Lee Oswald known as CE142
(the EMPTY paper bag that was found in the Sniper's Nest with two of
Oswald's prints on it).
Most conspiracists like to cry foul when discussing that brown paper
sack, claiming that the police were up to no good and created a fake
bag in order to frame Oswald with it. But such arguments fall short in
the "proof it happened" department. Way short.
But it's obvious why CTers feel the need to distance themselves from
the reality of that paper bag. Because if those conspiracy believers
were to actually face the stubborn reality concerning the bag (with
that reality being: It was Oswald's homemade bag and Oswald took his
rifle to work in that bag), then those CTers would be forced to admit
that their precious "patsy" had probably taken that gun to work in
order to shoot somebody with it on the day when JFK came to town.
What other reasonable and logical conclusion could anyone (CTer or
otherwise) come to after they've admitted to themselves the obvious
truth: That Lee Oswald did, in fact, walk into the Book Depository on
November 22, 1963, with a rifle wrapped in brown paper?
4.) Another pesky item that conspiracists need to "explain away" is
the "curtain rod" lie that was told by Lee Harvey Oswald. And it
couldn't be more obvious (to a reasonable and rational person, that
is) that Oswald DID, indeed, lie to Wesley Frazier (and later to the
police after he was arrested) concerning the curtain rods. Oswald
never had any curtain rods, of course.
And why on Earth would Oswald want to lie about the contents of that
brown paper package? Again, the answer couldn't be more obvious: He
wanted to DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THE MURDER WEAPON.
5.) And two other pieces of evidence that conspiracy advocates must
avoid or twist or mangle are the fingerprint and the palmprint of
Oswald's that were found on the paper bag.
How did Oswald's prints get on that paper bag IF OSWALD HIMSELF WAS
NEVER IN POSSESSION OF THAT BAG ON THE DAY OF THE ASSASSINATION?
That's a question that no conspiracy theorist has ever been able to
reconcile with anything close to a believable or satisfactory answer
since 1963. And yet we've got certain conspiracists like James
DiEugenio who now want to say that Oswald didn't carry ANY large bag
into the TSBD on November 22. None at all!
Well, Jim, I've got a really good one-word response to such lunacy --
Hogwash!!
In summary---
All conspiracy theorists who love to argue about whether Lee Harvey
Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of the
assassination certainly have to realize (deep down) that the above 10-
item scenario is 100% accurate and based on the actual evidence in the
JFK case (not to mention being based on a whole lot of ordinary common
sense as well).
But, it seems that conspiracy promoters just love to argue....even
when they must certainly know in their own guts that their arguments
are filled with mush when compared with the actual truth.
Vincent Bugliosi said it quite well (as usual) when he said this to
the jury in London, England, in 1986 during the televised docu-trial,
"ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD":
"We...know from the firearms people that the three expended
cartridge casings found on the floor, right beneath that sixth-floor
window--undoubtedly the same casings that Mr. [Harold] Norman heard
fall from above--were fired in, and ejected from, Oswald's rifle to
the exclusion of all other weapons.
"So we KNOW, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, we know beyond
ALL doubt that OSWALD'S RIFLE WAS THE MURDER WEAPON....that caused
that terrible, terrible spray of brain matter to the front! The worst
sight that I have ever seen in my entire life!
"And it's obvious that Oswald carried that rifle into the
building that day in that large brown paper bag. It couldn't be more
obvious. As far as Mr. [Wesley] Frazier's testimony about Oswald
carrying the bag under his armpit, he conceded he never paid close
attention to just how Oswald was carrying that bag. He didn't have any
reason to.
"At this point if we had nothing else....nothing else!....how
much do you need?!....if we had NOTHING else!....this would be enough
to prove Oswald's guilt beyond all REASONABLE doubt. But there's so
much more." -- Vincent Bugliosi; July 1986
http://www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
http://www.DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com
Raymond
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> >>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
>
> It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
> 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
>
> 1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
> Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
>
> 2.) An EMPTY 38-INCH-LONG PAPER BAG with two of Oswald's prints on it
> was found under the same window from where OSWALD'S RIFLE positively
> fired three bullets at President Kennedy.
>
> 3.) The lengthiest part of OSWALD'S RIFLE, when broken down, was 34.8
> inches. So it could definitely fit inside the 38-inch PAPER BAG found
> near the sniper's window.
>
> 4.) Oswald carried a long-ish and bulky PAPER BAG into the TSBD on
> 11/22/63.
>
> 5.) Oswald lied about the contents of that PAPER BAG to fellow worker
> Buell Wesley Frazier.
>
> 6.) Oswald also lied when he told the police he did not carry any kind
> of a large PAPER BAG into the Depository Building on November 22nd.
>
> 7.) Oswald also lied when he told the police that he had not recently
> said anything at all to fellow worker Buell Wesley Frazier about
> "curtain rods".
>
> 8.) Following the President's assassination, no curtain rods were
> discovered in the Book Depository [CE2640]:
>
Paper was SIMILAR
Accordingly, since paper and tape of this type are widely used for
packaging purposes, similar material could undoubtedly have been
obtained from many paper dealers,or from other users.
Sincerely yours,
Hoover
David Von Pein
Wow, what a sterling rebuttal by Raymond.
I guess I'm a cooked goose based on that paragraph from Hoover (who,
btw, was merely telling the truth regarding the TSBD paper in that
memo, which is something that a person who was bent ON PINNING THE
WHOLE THING ON OSWALD certainly would not be inclined to do).
Right, Ray?
Maybe ol' J. Edgar wasn't trying to frame Lee Harvey after all, ya
think?
aeffects
> Wow, what a sterling rebuttal by Raymond.
>
the only rebuttal you shithead really understand is: NO advertising,
asshole!
David Von Pein
>>> "the only rebuttal you shithead really understand is: NO advertising, asshole!" <<<
Apparently I don't even understand that rebuttal too well, seeing as
how your "no advertising" commands (whatever that's supposed to mean)
are perpetually ignored--quite naturally.
Raymond
Troy West testimony:
Mr. Belin.
If I wanted to use any of that tape, you know that tape that you use
to seal it, is there a way to make tape wet so I don't have to lick
it
myself with my tongue to make it wet and sticky? Or how did you get
it
to be sticky and stick together?
Mr. West.
Well, we have those machines with the little round ball that we fill
them up with water, and so we set them up. In to other words, I got a
rack that we set them in, and so we put out tape in a machine, and
whenever we pull the tape through, why then the water gets, you know,
it gets water on it as we pull it through.
Mr. Belin.
If I wanted to pull the tape, pull off a piece without getting water
on it, would I just lift it up without going over the wet roller and
get the tape without getting it wet?
Mr. West.
You would have to take it out. You would have to take it out of the
machine. See, it's put on there and then run through a little clamp
that holds it down, and you pull it, well, then the water, it gets
water on it.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol6/page357.php
Lt.Day noticed that there was a similar paper and tape of the
same width as that used to make the homemade bag somewhere else in
the Book Depository.
From Day's testimony:
Mr.Day. " On the first floor of the Texas Book Depository, and
I noticed from the wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a
SIMILAR- the tape was of the same width as the bag...
I directed one of the officers standing by me, I don't know
which, to get a piece of the paper from the wrapping bench."
(Vol. IV,p.268)
Lt. Day did not take any pictures of the wrapping bench on the
day of the assassination, but returned to the building on April 13,
1964 and took three pictures of the area (CE 730, 731, 732) and told
Commission Counsel Belin, "I don't think the benches had been changed
since the November shooting." (Vol.IV, p268)
"Mr. Belin: Do you recognize at any point on any of the exhibits
the actual tape machine that was used?
Mr. Day: The one that we removed this from was the north roll
and the tape on the east side of the bench.
Mr. Belin: You are now pointing at Exhibit 730. I notice a roll
of paper underneath the bench in the center of the picture. Is that
where you got the big paper, the main paper on Commission Exhibit
677?
Mr. Day: Yes , Sir. To the BEST of my knowledge that is the
roll we tore the paper off of." (Vol.IV,p.268)
The Depository normally used approximately one roll of paper
every 3 working days. (Not all from the same roll-average total
usage). Of course, Lt. Day did not mean that his sample came from the
same roll of paper that he photographed 5 months after the shooting,
and CE 730,731 and 732 clearly show that there were many working
areas with many rolls of wrapping paper and at least 3 visible
portable
tape machines. Despite the variety of paper and tape machines
available
for sampling, on November 22, Lt. Day was still able to select the
exact
roll of paper and the precise tape machine that Oswald allegedly used
for material to fashion his alleged rifle case. How fortunate it
would be to have a person like Lt.Day as a companion
at the racetrack, on a bad day, to help in making race selections.
Mr.Belin wondered about the tape machines:
Mr. Belin: Were there other tape machines there also?
Mr. Day: Yes, but I didn't notice them at the time."
(Vol.IV,p.268).
Mr. Cadigan. Expert on tape and paper: Testimony
I first saw this paper bag on November 23, 1963, in the FBI
laboratory, along with the sample of paper and tape from the Texas
School Book Depository obtained November 22, 1963, which is FBI
Exhibit D-1.
Mr. Cadigan.
This exhibit was brought to the laboratory by Special Agent Drain of
our Dallas office, who brought all of this evidence in for
examination.
Mr. Cadigan.
I might explain that these are made by a wheel in the paper-tape
dispenser. [Referring to an object in the room.] It is not quite this
size, but it is similar to this and it has horizontal markings
running
all around the wheel.
As you pull the operating handle that pulls the paper tape from the
roll through the machine and over the wetting brush, the wheel, in
the
process leaves these markings on the tape.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Excuse me, Mr. Cadigan, would this be in the type of tape dispenser
which is operated not merely by a handle---by a handpull--to the tape
from the dispenser, but is operated--that is operated by a lever?
Mr. Cadigan.
Yes; a lever, a handle.
Mr. Eisenberg.
And a given quantity of tape is dispensed, which you can cut off or
not as you choose---if you want to, you can pull some more tape and
cut it off, is that correct?
Mr. Cadigan.
That is correct.
Mr. Eisenberg.
And this wheel, as I understand it, when you pull the lever this
wheel
forces the paper out?
Mr. Cadigan.
It turns, and it is really pulling the paper from the roll and
pushing
it out from the slot
Mr. Eisenberg.
Now, getting back to the paper bag, 142, and the tape thereon, just
for a second, and the tape found on the, obtained from the, TSBD on
November 22, Exhibit 677, were the widths of the tapes the same?
Mr. Cadigan.
Similar. They were not exactly the same; no.
Mr. Eisenberg.
Can you explain that?
Mr. Cadigan.
Yes; the width of the tape on the paper sack, Exhibit 142, I measured
at 3 inches, and the width of the manila tape on Exhibit 677 obtained
the night of November 22, I measured as 2.975. There is twenty-five
one-thousandths of an inch difference.
http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol4/page89.php
I don't believe that LHO was the shooter. However, I believe that he
was well aware of what was to happen since he was blackmailed into
partcipating in the murder of the President. Blackmailed because it
was common knowledge to the plotters and planners that he was the one
who shot at Walker. I SUSPECT that the weapon was already in the
building before LHO even got to work and the shooter and another man
were in the building---on the seventh floor most of the night waiting
for the motorcade. I also believe the plan was to shoot from the west
side of the fifth floor since there was so much work being done on the
sixth floor and, in the end, the shooter had to go to the only place
where he could not be seen by employees on their lunch hour --- the
sixth floor sniper's nest.--- the worst place in the building to fire
from. It was the farthest place to exit from and the most likely
place to be seen from the street. There was nothing secure about that
building. Anyone could enter and leave during the dark hours of the
night and probably did on more than one occasion during the planning
of the murder of JFK.
The defenders of the Warren Commission's claim that LHO constructed a
paper container from materials in the TSBD to transport his Mannlicher
- Carcano from the Paine garage, in Irving, to the sixth floor of the
building where he worked, have got some questions to answer. If Lee
snitched paper and tape from the shipping room, when did he do this
without Troy West seeing him and when and where did he manufacture the
final container? Troy West testified that he seldom moved away from
his station.
A replica bag was made of similar materials from the same area of Troy
West's shipping room by SA Bardwell D. ODUM on Sunday, December 1 when
West wasn't there to watch over his coffee business and his paper
rolls. Did ODUM construct his sack while in the shipping room or did
he too take the paper and tape home with him, hidden in his trousers
and construct his container without being seen?
If Lee did have his weapon in the mysterious bag and carried it from
Frazier's car into the TSBD, where did he deposit it until needed to
shoot at the President?. Since he was allegedly seen entering the
back door of the building empty handed, how did he make his package
disappear?
When last seen by Frazier, he had the alleged rifle under his arm and
by the time he was seen by Dougherty the package was no longer an
issue. If true, Lee had about four hours to retrieve his murder
weapon and take it up to the sixth floor without being seen.
Considering the above, we must conclude that the package was hidden
outside the building without Frazier seeing Lee conceal it. This would
indicate that at some point during the morning Lee had to leave the
building, recover his package and carry it, unseen again, to the sixth
floor where he had to assemble it.
Difficult to explain? Indeed !
Now, the defenders of the curtain rod story also have some explaining
to do.
If Lee did take paper and tape from the shipping room and was able at
some point to construct the brown paper bag, the same scenario exists.
If he had curtain rods in the package when he exited Frazier's car and
was seen empty handed by Dougherty, what happened to his rods?
Let's examine Dougherty's testimony since so much value is placed on
his seeing Lee enter the back door empty handed.
He says he was sitting on the wrapping table "when Lee came through
the rear door" empty handed. When asked about the location of the door
and if it was the only door, he said , "Yes." He was not necessarily
lying. However, what he said was misleading. To explain, we must
examine the floor plan drawing of the first floor of the TSBD. (CE
1061). Where he was seated, he could not have seen Lee enter the rear
door to the building from outside since that door only deposits a
person onto the deck of the rear loading dock-not the first floor
proper where Dougherty described seeing Lee enter empty handed.
LOOKING AT THE DRAWING: After entering the loading dock from outside,
we see a door from the dock to the first floor and the shipping floor
equipment where Dougherty was sitting. So now we have our antinomy!
Both sides of the argument can argue that Lee left the package
(containing the rods or rifle) someplace on the loading dock where
neither Frazier or Dougherty would have seen it.
Of course, that does not exclude the possibility of the rifle, or a
similar rifle, having been brought into the building before the
morning of the 22nd., especially since we are not sure when the rifle
might have been removed from the Paine's garage, are we?
And obviously, Lee had not planned on returning home again to Irving,
and logic says that he at least wanted to see his family for possibly
the last time, so he fibbed to Frazier about why he wanted to go home
a day early.
And not to be seen as a liar, he did have a set of Ruth's curtain
rods, already wrapped from the Paine garage. Hell, Ruth had lots of
cheap rods and wasn't using them anyhow.
See Testimony of both Ruth and Mike Paine and you will see that they
disagree on how many sets of unused rods were wrapped and stored in
the garage.--- in brown wrapping paper. The rods were 27 inches long.
Scan down to Vol.XVII and view CE 730, 731, and 732 to see the
wrapping benches where Dougherty was sitting when he saw Lee enter at
8:am. Then scan to CE 1061----- the floor plan and observe the outer
door to the loading dock and the door from the dock into the first
floor
Could Lee, himself, have hid a rifle at some time before the
motorcade for the real assassin who could have entered the building
during the night and hid on the seventh floor until time for the
motorcade, then come down to the fifth floor to rerieve the weapon
from behind the boxes marked The Chicago Order
CE 490) to see where the rifle was possibly hidden behind a box marked
with the notation: CHICAGO ORDER.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/pdf/WH17_CE_490.pdf
I wonder what that means. It was the only box in the building so
marked. Does it mean, here is a rifle from Klein's in Chicago ?
Compare the handwriting with Lee's script and compare the word CHICAGO
with the envelope where Lee wrote the address of Klein's Sporting
Goods CHICAGO. ILL.
( see envelope ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassination_rifle
word Chicago
They appear to be the same handwriting.
The Commission suspected that Lee used wrapping paper from Ruth
Paine's home to make the sack found in the TSBD.
Read;
Measuring the Evidence
The Fourth Decade, Volume 4, Issue 6
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId...
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=520107
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do;jsessionid=225B7E3688CA5AFF5E9427BC0A7C278A?docId=48701&relPageId=5
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=48701&relPageId=6
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=48701&relPageId=7
lazu...@webtv.net
have needed 3 foot arms to do as Frazier said, cupping it from his
palm under his armpit. Couldn't be done...P.S. When SEE BS Reporter Dan
Rather attempted this in 1967,the package came up to his chin...didn't
faze old Danny Boy...not when you have an agenda, a career, and money
to be made off our last real President's death... Laz...
Gil Jesus
> I guess Oswald could tie his shoes standing up straight eh?...He would
> have needed 3 foot arms �to do as Frazier said, cupping it from �his
> palm under his armpit. Couldn't be done...P.S. When SEE BS Reporter Dan
> Rather attempted this in 1967,the package came up to his chin...
HERE'S THE PROOF:
robcap...@netscape.com
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> >>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
>
> It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
> 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
>
> 1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
> Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
Prove it. Show us the evidence that links the rifle found with LHO!
> 2.) An EMPTY 38-INCH-LONG PAPER BAG with two of Oswald's prints on it
> was found under the same window from where OSWALD'S RIFLE positively
> fired three bullets at President Kennedy.
It was? Where is it located in the crime scene photos?
I believe your TWO witnesses testified to it NOT being 38 inches long
either liar!
> 3.) The lengthiest part of OSWALD'S RIFLE, when broken down, was 34.8
> inches. So it could definitely fit inside the 38-inch PAPER BAG found
> near the sniper's window.
Yes, IF the bag was really 38 inches long, but YOUR OWN TWO WITNESSES
SAID IT WAS NOT!
Where is your evidence for showing us LHO made this bag that had NO
oil on it?
> 4.) Oswald carried a long-ish and bulky PAPER BAG into the TSBD on
> 11/22/63.
He did?? Who saw this? I ask because the ONLY witness you have
described him carrying it in a way that was PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for
him to do IF the bag was 38 inches as you claim!
> 5.) Oswald lied about the contents of that PAPER BAG to fellow worker
> Buell Wesley Frazier.
He did? Where is your proof for this claim of yours? If you provide
none we will know YOU are the liar.
> 6.) Oswald also lied when he told the police he did not carry any kind
> of a large PAPER BAG into the Depository Building on November 22nd.
Ditto. Prove he did or we will know you are the liar.
> 7.) Oswald also lied when he told the police that he had not recently
> said anything at all to fellow worker Buell Wesley Frazier about
> "curtain rods".
Ditto.
> 8.) Following the President's assassination, no curtain rods were
> discovered in the Book Depository [CE2640]:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0...
Neither was ANY rifle that belonged to LHO, but that doesn't stop you
from lying!
> 9.) OSWALD'S RIFLE was not found in its known storage location (Ruth
> Paine's garage in Irving, Texas) on the afternoon of November 22nd.
Can you show us that if it had been searched on 11/21/63 it would have
been there? IF not, this is meaningless.
(This is even not mentioning the issue of whether there was really
EVER a gun there in the first place.)
> Lee Oswald, of course, spent the previous night (Nov. 21) at the Paine
> house, and had easy access to the garage where he knew his rifle was
> being stored.
So did other people, prove LHO took the rifle with him to work. SO
far you have listed NO evidence or proof for this contention of yours.
> 10.) Ruth Paine discovered that someone had left the light on in the
> garage at some point prior to approximately 9:00 PM CST on Thursday,
> November 21st. Ruth was certain that she, herself, had not left the
> light on, and Ruth was also fairly certain that Marina Oswald had not
> left the light on either.
What made her so "certain" of all of this?
Who else had access to the garage besides LHO? Did anyone see LHO?
By the way they "CHANGED" the light story to him leaving it on in the
morning AFTER the police advised her.
> It was Ruth's belief that the person who had
> been in her garage prior to 9:00 PM on Nov. 21 and had not turned out
> the light upon exiting the garage was Lee Harvey Oswald.
Beliefs prove nothing.
> When a reasonable and sensible person adds up #1 through #10 above,
> the answer becomes quite obvious.
It does -- LHO was framed.
> In fact, the answer couldn't be more
> obvious -- Lee Oswald wrapped his own rifle in a handmade 38-inch
> brown paper bag and carried that paper package containing his rifle
> out of the Paine residence on the morning of November 22, 1963.
NOW all you have to do is provide some evidence that supports all of
these claims of yours!
> Lee H. Oswald then took that rifle package into his workplace at the
> TSBD, unwrapped the rifle in private at some point prior to 12:30 PM,
> assembled his rifle (which is reasonable to assume he knew how to do
> without much difficulty or painstaking effort), secreted himself as
> best he could in the southeast corner of the sixth floor (aided by the
> shield of book cartons that Oswald himself had fashioned that same
> morning), and shot and killed JFK when he drove down Elm Street at
> 12:30 PM.
Show us the evidence that supports these claims of yours.
> For goodness sake, this is second-grade math we're dealing with here
> concerning the rifle and the bag. ANY other explanation regarding
> those two objects is laughable when compared to the scenario I just
> laid out above.
When someone is willing to lie about everything like you do -- of
course things become "simple."
> Any alternate scenario must explain away many different things (things
> that all FIT TOGETHER like a well-fitting glove via the 10-point
> scenario I talked about above), such as:
Hardly difficult to do.
> 1.) The need to explain away the FACT that Oswald's rifle
When was it proven a rifle was in the Paine's garage in the first
place? When was it proven LHO owned a 40" Carcano similar to the one
found in the TSBD?
> was missing
> from its known storage location
How do we know there was a "known storage location" in the first
place?
> on the same day the President was
> killed via rifle fire that came from the same building where Lee
> Oswald worked and from where three bullets from OSWALD'S RIFLE were
> fired (via the three spent shells from OSWALD'S RIFLE found under the
> sniper's window).
Too bad you have NO evidence showing LHO fired a rifle and that any of
the ballistic evidence can be TIED to the victims, huh?
> 2.) If Lee Harvey Oswald didn't take his rifle to work in that large-
> ish paper bag on 11/22/63, then when did he (or somebody else) take
> Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 into the Book Depository?
Too bad you can't prove or show evidence that supports your claim that
he took the rifle to work on 11/22/63, huh?
> Prior to November 21, the last time Oswald was at Ruth Paine's house
> was the weekend of November 8-11, 1963, which was more than one full
> week before the President's motorcade route through Dallas was even
> finalized or announced in the Dallas papers.
Boy, when you have to RELY on stuff like this you know you are in
trouble, huh?
> The earliest that Oswald could have known for sure that his workplace
> would be a good and viable location for attempting to assassinate
> President Kennedy was Tuesday morning, November 19th, when the details
> of the motorcade route (including the Houston-to-Elm turn that would
> take JFK's limousine directly in front of the TSBD) were printed in
> the Dallas Morning News [CE1363]:
So you think he could plan everything in 3 days, huh?
How would he know the motorcade would be 5 minutes late?
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0...
> It stands to reason, therefore, that Oswald probably did not remove
> his rifle from Ruth Paine's garage prior to 11/19/63. And the only
> possible dates after November 19th that he could have conceivably
> retrieved his rifle from that location in Irving, Texas, were November
> 21-22.
When did you prove LHO had a rifle and he kept it in the Paine's
garage again? Without proving this it is silly to move on and claim
the stuff you are claiming.
> 3.) Conspiracy theorists also need to somehow explain away the
> devastatingly-incriminating evidence against Lee Oswald known as CE142
> (the EMPTY paper bag that was found in the Sniper's Nest with two of
> Oswald's prints on it).
We do? When did you prove or show supporting evidence for the WC's
claim that he made the bag, that it was 38 inches long and that LHO
did OWN a 40" Carcano rifle and he brought it to work in that bag
again?
> Most conspiracists like to cry foul when discussing that brown paper
> sack, claiming that the police were up to no good and created a fake
> bag in order to frame Oswald with it. But such arguments fall short in
> the "proof it happened" department. Way short.
The did create a "fake" bag and the FBI admitted it as they said they
destroyed the original one during "chemical tests!"
> But it's obvious why CTers feel the need to distance themselves from
> the reality of that paper bag.
What reality is this? YOU have NOT shown one piece of supporting
evidence for the claim of the bag.
> Because if those conspiracy believers
> were to actually face the stubborn reality concerning the bag (with
> that reality being: It was Oswald's homemade bag and Oswald took his
> rifle to work in that bag),
That is funny! THE WC said he made it at the TSBD, but DVP says it
was "homemade!"
> then those CTers would be forced to admit
> that their precious "patsy" had probably taken that gun to work in
> order to shoot somebody with it on the day when JFK came to town.
Why "probably" Dave? I thought if a "reasonable person" (and you
always claim to be one) added up 1 to 10 they would KNOW he did it?
> What other reasonable and logical conclusion could anyone (CTer or
> otherwise) come to after they've admitted to themselves the obvious
> truth: That Lee Oswald did, in fact, walk into the Book Depository on
> November 22, 1963, with a rifle wrapped in brown paper?
NOW all you have to do is prove it or show supporting evidence for
this conclusion. When will we get that from you?
> 4.) Another pesky item that conspiracists need to "explain away" is
> the "curtain rod" lie that was told by Lee Harvey Oswald.
Why do we need to "explain away" a claim that was NEVER shown to be
true in the first place?
> And it
> couldn't be more obvious (to a reasonable and rational person, that
> is) that Oswald DID, indeed, lie to Wesley Frazier (and later to the
> police after he was arrested) concerning the curtain rods. Oswald
> never had any curtain rods, of course.
How does one prove this claim? YOU can't as all you have is Frazier's
word, and that is it.
NO one else could be found to say they saw LHO enter the TSBD on the
morning of 11/22/63 with a bag like you describe.
> And why on Earth would Oswald want to lie about the contents of that
> brown paper package?
Exactly! So why are you so ready to believe he did?
> Again, the answer couldn't be more obvious: He
> wanted to DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THE MURDER WEAPON.
LOL!! Too bad you have NO supporting evidence for this claim, huh?
What is it like to make claims you CAN NEVER SUPPORT?
> 5.) And two other pieces of evidence that conspiracy advocates must
> avoid or twist or mangle are the fingerprint and the palmprint of
> Oswald's that were found on the paper bag.
Isn't it funny how his "palmprint" kept showing up everywhere?
How could he handle the bag as much as your side claims and only leave
these two types of prints?
How could he carry a 38 inch package in the way Frazier said?
> How did Oswald's prints get on that paper bag IF OSWALD HIMSELF WAS
> NEVER IN POSSESSION OF THAT BAG ON THE DAY OF THE ASSASSINATION?
What paper bag? That is the whole point!
> That's a question that no conspiracy theorist has ever been able to
> reconcile with anything close to a believable or satisfactory answer
> since 1963. And yet we've got certain conspiracists like James
> DiEugenio who now want to say that Oswald didn't carry ANY large bag
> into the TSBD on November 22. None at all!
He didn't and we can say this BASED ON THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE unlike
what you do!
> Well, Jim, I've got a really good one-word response to such lunacy --
> Hogwash!!
Prove it!
> In summary---
>
> All conspiracy theorists who love to argue about whether Lee Harvey
> Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of the
> assassination certainly have to realize (deep down) that the above 10-
> item scenario is 100% accurate and based on the actual evidence in the
> JFK case (not to mention being based on a whole lot of ordinary common
> sense as well).
There is NO argument as you can't show any supporting evidence for
your claims.
> But, it seems that conspiracy promoters just love to argue....even
> when they must certainly know in their own guts that their arguments
> are filled with mush when compared with the actual truth.
Lying, aren't you?
> Vincent Bugliosi said it quite well (as usual) when he said this to
> the jury in London, England, in 1986 during the televised docu-trial,
> "ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD":
Oh goodie, we get to hear from a PAID PROPAGANDIST again!
> "We...know from the firearms people that the three expended
> cartridge casings found on the floor, right beneath that sixth-floor
> window--undoubtedly the same casings that Mr. [Harold] Norman heard
> fall from above--were fired in, and ejected from, Oswald's rifle to
> the exclusion of all other weapons.
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim?
> "So we KNOW, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, we know beyond
> ALL doubt that OSWALD'S RIFLE WAS THE MURDER WEAPON....that caused
> that terrible, terrible spray of brain matter to the front! The worst
> sight that I have ever seen in my entire life!
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim?
> "And it's obvious that Oswald carried that rifle into the
> building that day in that large brown paper bag. It couldn't be more
> obvious. As far as Mr. [Wesley] Frazier's testimony about Oswald
> carrying the bag under his armpit, he conceded he never paid close
> attention to just how Oswald was carrying that bag. He didn't have any
> reason to.
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim?
> "At this point if we had nothing else....nothing else!....how
> much do you need?!....if we had NOTHING else!....this would be enough
> to prove Oswald's guilt beyond all REASONABLE doubt. But there's so
> much more." -- Vincent Bugliosi; July 1986
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim?
Walt
wrote:
> On Dec 10, 2:44 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> > >>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
>
> > It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
> > 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
>
> > 1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
> > Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
>
> Prove it. Show us the evidence that links the rifle found with LHO!
Hey Stupid Bastard ...Hoover and his "Extra Special" special agents
had selected Lee Oswald as the patsy ...
Whose rifle do you think they would have planted under those boxes of
books.....Sgt York's??
>
> > 2.) An EMPTY 38-INCH-LONG PAPER BAG with two of Oswald's prints on it
> > was found under the same window from where OSWALD'S RIFLE positively
> > fired three bullets at President Kennedy.
>
> It was? Where is it located in the crime scene photos?
>
> I believe your TWO witnesses testified to it NOT being 38 inches long
> either liar!
>
> > 3.) The lengthiest part of OSWALD'S RIFLE, when broken down, was 34.8
> > inches. So it could definitely fit inside the 38-inch PAPER BAG found
> > near the sniper's window.
Hey Von Pea Brain, you lyin sack-o-shit.....Perhaps you'd better check
to see if that bag in evidence matches the bag that Linnie Mae Randle
and Wes Frazier SAW Lee Oswald carry that rainy morning. The Record
shows that both of the only two witnesses who saw the sack that Oswald
carried said it was NOT LONGER THAN 28 inches.
It's true there was no rifle in the blanket..... But was the TSBD
rifle ever in that blanket??? The FBI found not an iota of evidence
that the rifle had been in that blanket. There was no dirt or
gungrease reported found on the blanket and there was a SINGLE (none,
nada, zip, zero) blanket fiber found on the rifle. Only an idiot
would believe that rough rifle wouldn't have snagged some fibers from
the blanket if it had been in the blanket.... Are you an Idiot ???
>
> Can you show us that if it had been searched on 11/21/63 it would have
> been there? IF not, this is meaningless.
>
> (This is even not mentioning the issue of whether there was really
> EVER a gun there in the first place.)
>
> > Lee Oswald, of course, spent the previous night (Nov. 21) at the Paine
> > house, and had easy access to the garage where he knew his rifle was
> > being stored.
>
> So did other people, prove LHO took the rifle with him to work. SO
> far you have listed NO evidence or proof for this contention of yours.
>
> > 10.) Ruth Paine discovered that someone had left the light on in the
> > garage at some point prior to approximately 9:00 PM CST on Thursday,
> > November 21st. Ruth was certain that she, herself, had not left the
> > light on, and Ruth was also fairly certain that Marina Oswald had not
> > left the light on either.
A light left burning.... WOW!!....what exactly is this supposed to
prove??? That you're an idiot?
The speculation of an idiot and a liar......
robcap...@netscape.com
> On Dec 10, 10:16 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 10, 2:44 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> > > >>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
>
> > > It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
> > > 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
>
> > > 1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
> > > Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
>
> > Prove it. Show us the evidence that links the rifle found with LHO!
>
> Hey Stupid Bastard ...Hoover and his "Extra Special" special agents
> had selected Lee Oswald as the patsy ...
> Whose rifle do you think they would have planted under those boxes of
> books.....Sgt York's??
I thought you said the rifle found in the TSBD was NOT the same one he
ordered? IF not, remember this?
“Hello Dave.... I may not be posting much longer...I'm getting tired
of presenting information for lurkers to research, and verify for
themselves only to find that most folks really don't give a damn. The
murder of JFK is just some damned parlor game of "Who Done It" to 95%
of the people. Just recently I read the post of a well known
"researcher" who is highly
regarded by many. His post argued that the rifle Oswald ordered was a
36 inch Mannlicher Carcano CARBINE. Therefore the TSBD rifle ( 40 inch
M.C. short rifle) was not Oswald's because it's not the rifle Oswald
ordered.
***While I agree that the TSBD rifle was NOT Oswald's rifle***..... I
strongly disagree with the argument that Oswald was shipped a 36 inch
carbine. Any good researcher can easily verify that the Mannlicher
Carcanos being sold by
Kleins were the 40 inch, 7.5 pound, Mannlicher Carcano short rifle,
regardless what the Klein ad said.
It's so damned frustrating to have to argue with a "highly respected"
researcher, when the information has been presented over and over but
they simply ignore the facts." (Walt 1/27/04)
The rifle was NOT buried under boxes as you claim liar, and the first
rifle found was a Mauser.
Lying, aren't you?
Boy this guy Reitzes is unravelling rapidly!
Walt
wrote:
> On Dec 10, 12:49 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 10, 10:16 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 10, 2:44 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> > > > >>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
>
> > > > It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
> > > > 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
>
> > > > 1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
> > > > Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
>
> > > Prove it. Show us the evidence that links the rifle found with LHO!
>
> > Hey Stupid Bastard ...Hoover and his "Extra Special" special agents
> > had selected Lee Oswald as the patsy ...
> > Whose rifle do you think they would have planted under those boxes of
> > books.....Sgt York's??
>
> I thought you said the rifle found in the TSBD was NOT the same one he
> ordered? IF not, remember this?
Well for a Stupid Bastard your memory seems to be good.... That
isn't exactly what I've said but it's close. I didn't say anything
about what he "ordered"... The TSBD rifle is NOT the rifle that
Kleines sent to PO Box 2915 in Dallas.
The TSBD rifle does carry the same serial number that the rifle that
was sent to Oswald's PO Box carried, but that means NOTHING.... It's a
simple matter to replace the barrel of the rifle and stamp any number
you want on the replacement barrel. The PROOF that the TSBD rifle is
NOT the rifle sent to PO Box 2915 can be seen in the photo that Marina
took of Lee holding a Carcano with BOTTOM sling swivels. The rifle in
Oswald's hands probably does carry the serial number C 2766.... but
it's NOT the rifle seen in the authentic photo that Marina took.
Wouldn't Hoover and his "Extra Special" agents have wanted to plant a
rifle that would "APPEAR" to have been shipped to Oswald?? Hoover
knew long before the assassination that Oswald had ordered a
Mannlicher carcano from Klein's..... Don't you believe that he would
have made sure that the rifle planted carried the correct serial
number??
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Raymond
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
One Rifle or Two
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq25loEpBro
The Second Carcano
http://jfkresearch.freehomepage.com/c2766.html
The Rifle
He Didn't Frame Himself
The rifle is the secret to the death of JFK.
The weapon in the Archives will prove what here I say.
The photos in the backyard will show the Oswald gun,
But the rifle in the Archives is a completely other one.
Someone has to check it and examine it with care.
The number on the barrel wasn't always there.
There's another number under- the one that's on there
now,
So now you know the secret and it's time to prove the
"how."
Oswald was a "patsy" and knew the plan indeed,
But he didn't know that number would blame him for the
deed.
So, the rifle is the secret that Lee was not to blame,
And the rifle in the Archives will reveal what I claim.
Raymond
June 7, 2002
post
"The sling is not a standard rifle sling but appears to be a
musical
instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag." 3H
397 SA Frazier, FBI.
The sling on the TSBD rifle was a part of a U.S. Air Force holster
and harness set, patented by Norris N. Murray, on March 6, 1956,
patent No. 2,819,830. ( see U.S. Military Holsters and Pistol
cartridge Boxes By Edward Scott Meadows, 1987 ,p 376.)
The alleged Oswald (TSBD) rifle was not just another Italian
surplus Carcano. The rifle was part of a small lot of rifles that
were specially ordered to be the rifles of the Guardie del Duce, an
elite group of one hundred men charged with the job of guarding
Mussolini .
The stocks were thinner, lighter and were dyed black. ( R.HOBBS, The
Carcano, Italy's Military Rifle)
And, it was not the rifle that LHO had delivered in the spring of
1963. The TSBD weapon was a longer rifle by four inches with sling
swivels on the side of the rifle. The backyard photo rifle had the
swivels on the bottom . The problem!! The rifle delivered from
Klein's had the serial number C-2766. So did the TSBD rifle . That
can't be, unless someone changed the number, which would have been
very easy to do. This weapon had the serial number on the back end of
the barrel, where it screws into the receiver . A simple matter of
minutes to remove and not much more to remove and replace the serial
number. Which means, if I am right, the rifle in the National
Archives has a number that it did not have prior to 11-22-63.
From Martha Moyer, well known to the JFK assassination community.:
"Do you know how easy it is to change a SN on a rifle? I do!!!
About six months ago I considered having the SN on my MC changed to
read C2766. The gunsmith told me "no problem - in fact, quite
simple" (Oh, by the way, my MC is a 36")
If I wanted to frame somebody - I would
get the serial number of their gun - registered to them - find a
duplicate and change to their SN. I would then leave it at the scene
of the crime"
Martha Moyer
Carcano Information
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/armindex.htm
http://www.rememuseum.org.uk/arms/rifles/armisrc.htm
robcap...@netscape.com
> On Dec 10, 2:27 pm, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 10, 12:49 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Dec 10, 10:16 am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 10, 2:44 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> > > > > >>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
>
> > > > > It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
> > > > > 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
>
> > > > > 1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
> > > > > Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
>
> > > > Prove it. Show us the evidence that links the rifle found with LHO!
>
> > > Hey Stupid Bastard ...Hoover and his "Extra Special" special agents
> > > had selected Lee Oswald as the patsy ...
> > > Whose rifle do you think they would have planted under those boxes of
> > > books.....Sgt York's??
>
> > I thought you said the rifle found in the TSBD was NOT the same one he
> > ordered? IF not, remember this?
>
> Well for a Stupid Bastard your memory seems to be good.... That
> isn't exactly what I've said but it's close. I didn't say anything
> about what he "ordered"... The TSBD rifle is NOT the rifle that
> Kleines sent to PO Box 2915 in Dallas.
OF course NOT since there is NO supporting evidence showing Klein's
sent ANY rifle to LHO via his post office box!
> The TSBD rifle does carry the same serial number that the rifle that
> was sent to Oswald's PO Box carried, but that means NOTHING....
You're lying again Wally as there is NO supporting evidence to show
LHO EVER received any rifle at his Dallas P.O. Box.
Tis that simple.
IF he got it another way you need to list YOUR evidence for this since
the WC NEVER claimed he did.
Furthermore, more up-to-date research has shown Klein's had NO 40"
Carcanos in stock when LHO allegedly placed his order so when an
honest person COUPLES this with the alleged order from they see HE
would have been requesting a 36" CARBINE IF he ordered anything!
Raymond gave you some very good stuff but of course you have IGNORED
IT as usual.
> It's a
> simple matter to replace the barrel of the rifle and stamp any number
> you want on the replacement barrel.
Especially when the BATCH THE SUPPOSED C2766 was in had been REFITTED
at Riva's workshop and ONE of their DUTIES was to REMOVE all serial
numbers!
Furthermore, it has been shown by research in more recent years that
there was more than one gun bearing the serial number C2766.
> The PROOF that the TSBD rifle is
> NOT the rifle sent to PO Box 2915 can be seen in the photo that Marina
> took of Lee holding a Carcano with BOTTOM sling swivels.
Boy, LHO did NOT need any enemies with Wally around, huh? While he is
acting like he is supporting LHO by saying the rifle found at the TSBD
was not the one LHO owned, he is throwing him under the bus in the
following ways:
1) He keeps insisting LHO ordered a 40" Carcano when EVERYTHING on the
money order showed he was allegedly ordering a 36" Carbine.
2) He keesp insisting LHO was dumb enough to pose with it in the ONE
and ONLY authentic BY photo (CE-133A) taken by Marina (fear NOT he
says LHO ALTERED HIS OWN CHIN TO THROW FOLKS OFF!).
3) He keesp insisting LHO received the 40" Carcano at his Dallas P.O.
Box when there is NOT one piece of supporting evidence for this
claim. In fact, the evidence shows LHO NEVER listed A. Hidell as a
person who could receive mail at his Dallas box like he did in New
Orleans.
I think LHO would tell Wally, if he was still alive, TO GET OFF HIS
SIDE!
> The rifle in
> Oswald's hands probably does carry the serial number C 2766.... but
> it's NOT the rifle seen in the authentic photo that Marina took.
More speculation, huh? Remember your gay lover has said this about
speculation!
“Pure speculation with no evidence is the forte of the LNT'er. “ (Ben
Holmes – 12/4/09)
> Wouldn't Hoover and his "Extra Special" agents have wanted to plant a
> rifle that would "APPEAR" to have been shipped to Oswald??
Nice of you to FINALLY admit it just was made to "appear" to have been
shipped to him!
> Hoover
> knew long before the assassination that Oswald had ordered a
> Mannlicher carcano from Klein's.....
He did? Cite for this claim of yours!
> Don't you believe that he would
> have made sure that the rifle planted carried the correct serial
> number??
YOU have to prove that LHO ordered the rifle first and that Hoover
"knew this" before you can move on!
Walt
wrote:
Hey Stupid Bastard...... You're about to be fired as a shill....
You've lost all credibility.
Walt
Duh ...Stupid Bastard..... The rifle I was refering to was the rifle
that was planted beneath those heavy boxes of books. ( do you see the
word "plant" in my statement?)
It would not have been cool to plant a rifle that didn't have the same
serial number as the one with the bottom sling swivels. They thought
they were planting a rifle exactly like the one that Klein's had
shipped to Oswald's PO Box. They simply didn't know that there was a
slight but distinct difference between the two rifles.
That's what I meant when I said....They prepared and planted a rifle
that "APPEARED" ( same model and serial number) to be the rifle that
Klein's had ent to PO Box 2915.
robcap...@netscape.com
I saw MOSTLY lies as I always do in all of your posts.
YOU have insisted a rifle was sent by Klein's to LHO's mail box, NOW
show us some supporting evidence you lying WC shill!
> It would not have been cool to plant a rifle that didn't have the same
> serial number as the one with the bottom sling swivels. They thought
> they were planting a rifle exactly like the one that Klein's had
> shipped to Oswald's PO Box.
There you go again liar. NOW list the supporting evidence for this
claim of yours (same one the WC made too)!
Of course the liar won't because there is NONE to list.
Even your gay lover said speculation is a "favored tool" of the LNers!
> They simply didn't know that there was a
> slight but distinct difference between the two rifles.
There was a major difference since there is NO evidence to show LHO
ordered a 40" Carcano or ever received one.
YOU are a liar and a WC shill!
> That's what I meant when I said....They prepared and planted a rifle
> that "APPEARED" ( same model and serial number) to be the rifle that
> Klein's had ent to PO Box 2915.
Prove they sent to LHO's P.O. Box liar.
tomnln
Oswald had No Need for jack Ruby ! ! !
"robcap...@netscape.com" <robc...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:88b521ff-f4ec-4598...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
Tis that simple.
�Pure speculation with no evidence is the forte of the LNT'er. � (Ben
Holmes � 12/4/09)
> Wouldn't Hoover and his "Extra Special" agents have wanted to plant a
> rifle that would "APPEAR" to have been shipped to Oswald??
Nice of you to FINALLY admit it just was made to "appear" to have been
shipped to him!
> Hoover
> knew long before the assassination that Oswald had ordered a
> Mannlicher carcano from Klein's.....
He did? Cite for this claim of yours!
> Don't you believe that he would
> have made sure that the rifle planted carried the correct serial
> number??
YOU have to prove that LHO ordered the rifle first and that Hoover
"knew this" before you can move on!
> > �Hello Dave.... I may not be posting much longer...I'm getting tired
> read more �- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:79485fc3-c8e7-4774...@k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Hey Stupid Bastard...... You're about to be fired as a shill....
You've lost all credibility.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wally World's own words Prove HIM to be a WC "SHILL" ! ! !
SEE>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/wally_world.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> �Pure speculation with no evidence is the forte of the LNT'er. � (Ben
> Holmes � 12/4/09)
>
> > Wouldn't Hoover and his "Extra Special" agents have wanted to plant a
> > rifle that would "APPEAR" to have been shipped to Oswald??
>
> Nice of you to FINALLY admit it just was made to "appear" to have been
> shipped to him!
>
> > Hoover
> > knew long before the assassination that Oswald had ordered a
> > Mannlicher carcano from Klein's.....
>
> He did? Cite for this claim of yours!
>
> > Don't you believe that he would
> > have made sure that the rifle planted carried the correct serial
> > number??
>
> YOU have to prove that LHO ordered the rifle first and that Hoover
> "knew this" before you can move on!
>
>
>
> > > �Hello Dave.... I may not be posting much longer...I'm getting tired
> read more �- Hide quoted text -
Walt
I couldn't prove to you that ocean water is salty......... I couldn't
do it because you'd have to pull your head out of your ass to taste
it. For the same reason I can't prove to you that Klein's sent a 40
inch long model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano short rifle to PO Box 2915 in
Dallas. There is a mountain of evidence that proves the rifle was
sent to Oswald's PO box, but when you've got your head up your ass
NOBODY could show you that evidence.
robcap...@netscape.com
Of course you could moron...you could tell me to drink some! NOW that
is proof!
Do you have anything like this for your lying claim about LHO
receiving a 40" Carcano?
> I couldn't
> do it because you'd have to pull your head out of your ass to taste
> it.
I think you have me confused with Ben!
> For the same reason I can't prove to you that Klein's sent a 40
> inch long model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano short rifle to PO Box 2915 in
> Dallas.
Ah, because there is NO evidence to support your lying claim as I
thought.
> There is a mountain of evidence that proves the rifle was
> sent to Oswald's PO box, but when you've got your head up your ass
> NOBODY could show you that evidence.
Here we see the old "mountain of evidence" (his gay lover uses the
variant allowed by the LNer Troll handbook--overwhelming) ploy, but
for some reason they NEVER seem able to list any of it.
Hmmm.
tomnln
Wally drinks the white ones on Even days !
Wally drinks the yellow ones on ODD days !
"robcap...@netscape.com" <robc...@netscape.com> wrote in message
news:03eb3ecf-0df3-4122...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > > > �Pure speculation with no evidence is the forte of the LNT'er. �
> > > > (Ben
> > > > Holmes � 12/4/09)
Walt
> All Wally knows about drinkin is>>>>>>>
>
> Wally drinks the white ones on Even days !
> Wally drinks the yellow ones on ODD days !
>
> > > > > (Ben
> > > > > Holmes – 12/4/09)
Sure I could, But your so damned stupid and obstinate you would
refuse, or if you did taste it you'd argue that it wasn't really ocean
water, it's fake. As the old axiom goes....You can lead a jackass to
water but you can;t make him drink.
NOW that
> is proof!
>
> Do you have anything like this for your lying claim about LHO
> receiving a 40" Carcano?
>
> > I couldn't
> > do it because you'd have to pull your head out of your ass to taste
> > it.
>
> I think you have me confused with Ben!
>
> > For the same reason I can't prove to you that Klein's sent a 40
> > inch long model 91/38 Mannlicher Carcano short rifle to PO Box 2915 in
> > Dallas.
>
> Ah, because there is NO evidence to support your lying claim as I
> thought.
>
> > There is a mountain of evidence that proves the rifle was
> > sent to Oswald's PO box, but when you've got your head up your ass
> > NOBODY could show you that evidence.
>
> Here we see the old "mountain of evidence" (his gay lover uses the
> variant allowed by the LNer Troll handbook--overwhelming) ploy, but
> for some reason they NEVER seem able to list any of it.
>
> Hmmm.- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:b9eafee4-f8a8-45d1...@v25g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
> > > > > �Pure speculation with no evidence is the forte of the LNT'er. �
> > > > > (Ben
> > > > > Holmes � 12/4/09)
***************************************************************************
The SHILL wrote;
Sure I could, But your so damned stupid and obstinate you would
refuse, or if you did taste it you'd argue that it wasn't really ocean
water, it's fake. As the old axiom goes....You can lead a jackass to
water but you can;t make him drink.
I write;
Whatta Stupid Bastard ! ! !
Just feed him SALT, He'll drink O K ! ! !
***********************************************************************************
curtjester1
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassination.jfk/browse_thread/th...
>
> >>> "You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desparately [sic]." <<<
>
> It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense
> 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
>
> 1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the
> Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.
>
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/2cdcf6b82e23d650
(Exposing Postal Inspector Harry Holmes)
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/9dd20b1b30fbd11a
(Proof the Rifle Was Not Oswald's - The Origin of the $21.45 Money
Order)gle.com/group/alt.
> 2.) An EMPTY 38-INCH-LONG PAPER BAG with two of Oswald's prints on it
> was found under the same window from where OSWALD'S RIFLE positively
> fired three bullets at President Kennedy.
>
> 3.) The lengthiest part of OSWALD'S RIFLE, when broken down, was 34.8
> inches. So it could definitely fit inside the 38-inch PAPER BAG found
> near the sniper's window.
>
> 4.) Oswald carried a long-ish and bulky PAPER BAG into the TSBD on
> 11/22/63.
>
> 5.) Oswald lied about the contents of that PAPER BAG to fellow worker
> Buell Wesley Frazier.
>
> 6.) Oswald also lied when he told the police he did not carry any kind
> of a large PAPER BAG into the Depository Building on November 22nd.
>
> 7.) Oswald also lied when he told the police that he had not recently
> said anything at all to fellow worker Buell Wesley Frazier about
> "curtain rods".
>
> 8.) Following the President's assassination, no curtain rods were
> discovered in the Book Depository [CE2640]:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/html/WC_Vol25_0...
>
> 9.) OSWALD'S RIFLE was not found in its known storage location (Ruth
> Paine's garage in Irving, Texas) on the afternoon of November 22nd.
> Lee Oswald, of course, spent the previous night (Nov. 21) at the Paine
> house, and had easy access to the garage where he knew his rifle was
> being stored.
>
> 10.) Ruth Paine discovered that someone had left the light on in the
> garage at some point prior to approximately 9:00 PM CST on Thursday,
> November 21st. Ruth was certain that she, herself, had not left the
> light on, and Ruth was also fairly certain that Marina Oswald had not
> left the light on either. It was Ruth's belief that the person who had
> been in her garage prior to 9:00 PM on Nov. 21 and had not turned out
> the light upon exiting the garage was Lee Harvey Oswald.
>
> When a reasonable and sensible person adds up #1 through #10 above,
> the answer becomes quite obvious. In fact, the answer couldn't be more
> obvious -- Lee Oswald wrapped his own rifle in a handmade 38-inch
> brown paper bag and carried that paper package containing his rifle
> out of the Paine residence on the morning of November 22, 1963.
>
> Lee H. Oswald then took that rifle package into his workplace at the
> TSBD, unwrapped the rifle in private at some point prior to 12:30 PM,
> assembled his rifle (which is reasonable to assume he knew how to do
> without much difficulty or painstaking effort), secreted himself as
> best he could in the southeast corner of the sixth floor (aided by the
> shield of book cartons that Oswald himself had fashioned that same
> morning), and shot and killed JFK when he drove down Elm Street at
> 12:30 PM.
>
> For goodness sake, this is second-grade math we're dealing with here
> concerning the rifle and the bag. ANY other explanation regarding
> those two objects is laughable when compared to the scenario I just
> laid out above.
>
> Any alternate scenario must explain away many different things (things
> that all FIT TOGETHER like a well-fitting glove via the 10-point
> scenario I talked about above), such as:
>
> 1.) The need to explain away the FACT that Oswald's rifle was missing
> from its known storage location on the same day the President was
> killed via rifle fire that came from the same building where Lee
> Oswald worked and from where three bullets from OSWALD'S RIFLE were
> fired (via the three spent shells from OSWALD'S RIFLE found under the
> sniper's window).
>
> 2.) If Lee Harvey Oswald didn't take his rifle to work in that large-
> ish paper bag on 11/22/63, then when did he (or somebody else) take
> Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 into the Book Depository?
>
> Prior to November 21, the last time Oswald was at Ruth Paine's house
> was the weekend of November 8-11, 1963, which was more than one full
> week before the President's motorcade route through Dallas was even
> finalized or announced in the Dallas papers.
>
> The earliest that Oswald could have known for sure that his workplace
> would be a good and viable location for attempting to assassinate
> President Kennedy was Tuesday morning, November 19th, when the details
> of the motorcade route (including the Houston-to-Elm turn that would
> take JFK's limousine directly in front of the TSBD) were printed in
> the Dallas Morning News [CE1363]:
>
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0...
>
> It stands to reason, therefore, that Oswald probably did not remove
> his rifle from Ruth Paine's garage prior to 11/19/63. And the only
> possible dates after November 19th that he could have conceivably
> retrieved his rifle from that location in Irving, Texas, were November
> 21-22.
>
> 3.) Conspiracy theorists also need to somehow explain away the
> devastatingly-incriminating evidence against Lee Oswald known as CE142
> (the EMPTY paper bag that was found in the Sniper's Nest with two of
> Oswald's prints on it).
>
> Most conspiracists like to cry foul when discussing that brown paper
> sack, claiming that the police were up to no good and created a fake
> bag in order to frame Oswald with it. But such arguments fall short in
> the "proof it happened" department. Way short.
>
> But it's obvious why CTers feel the need to distance themselves from
> the reality of that paper bag. Because if those conspiracy believers
> were to actually face the stubborn reality concerning the bag (with
> that reality being: It was Oswald's homemade bag and Oswald took his
> rifle to work in that bag), then those CTers would be forced to admit
> that their precious "patsy" had probably taken that gun to work in
> order to shoot somebody with it on the day when JFK came to town.
>
> What other reasonable and logical conclusion could anyone (CTer or
> otherwise) come to after they've admitted to themselves the obvious
> truth: That Lee Oswald did, in fact, walk into the Book Depository on
> November 22, 1963, with a rifle wrapped in brown paper?
>
> 4.) Another pesky item that conspiracists need to "explain away" is
> the "curtain rod" lie that was told by Lee Harvey Oswald. And it
> couldn't be more obvious (to a reasonable and rational person, that
> is) that Oswald DID, indeed, lie to Wesley Frazier (and later to the
> police after he was arrested) concerning the curtain rods. Oswald
> never had any curtain rods, of course.
>
> And why on Earth would Oswald want to lie about the contents of that
> brown paper package? Again, the answer couldn't be more obvious: He
> wanted to DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THE MURDER WEAPON.
>
> 5.) And two other pieces of evidence that conspiracy advocates must
> avoid or twist or mangle are the fingerprint and the palmprint of
> Oswald's that were found on the paper bag.
>
> How did Oswald's prints get on that paper bag IF OSWALD HIMSELF WAS
> NEVER IN POSSESSION OF THAT BAG ON THE DAY OF THE ASSASSINATION?
>
> That's a question that no conspiracy theorist has ever been able to
> reconcile with anything close to a believable or satisfactory answer
> since 1963. And yet we've got certain conspiracists like James
> DiEugenio who now want to say that Oswald didn't carry ANY large bag
> into the TSBD on November 22. None at all!
>
> Well, Jim, I've got a really good one-word response to such lunacy --
> Hogwash!!
>
> In summary---
>
> All conspiracy theorists who love to argue about whether Lee Harvey
> Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of the
> assassination certainly have to realize (deep down) that the above 10-
> item scenario is 100% accurate and based on the actual evidence in the
> JFK case (not to mention being based on a whole lot of ordinary common
> sense as well).
>
> But, it seems that conspiracy promoters just love to argue....even
> when they must certainly know in their own guts that their arguments
> are filled with mush when compared with the actual truth.
>
> Vincent Bugliosi said it quite well (as usual) when he said this to
> the jury in London, England, in 1986 during the televised docu-trial,
> "ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD":
>
> "We...know from the firearms people that the three expended
> cartridge casings found on the floor, right beneath that sixth-floor
> window--undoubtedly the same casings that Mr. [Harold] Norman heard
> fall from above--were fired in, and ejected from, Oswald's rifle to
> the exclusion of all other weapons.
>
> "So we KNOW, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, we know beyond
> ALL doubt that OSWALD'S RIFLE WAS THE MURDER WEAPON....that caused
> that terrible, terrible spray of brain matter to the front! The worst
> sight that I have ever seen in my entire life!
>
> "And it's obvious that Oswald carried that rifle into the
> building that day in that large brown paper bag. It couldn't be more
> obvious. As far as Mr. [Wesley] Frazier's testimony about Oswald
> carrying the bag under his armpit, he conceded he never paid close
> attention to just how Oswald was carrying that bag. He didn't have any
> reason to.
>
> "At this point if we had nothing else....nothing else!....how
> much do you need?!....if we had NOTHING else!....this would be enough
> to prove Oswald's guilt beyond all REASONABLE doubt. But there's so
> much more." -- Vincent Bugliosi; July 1986
>
> http://www.DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
>
> http://www.DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com