David Von Pein's Assertion
robcap...@netscape.com
A SERIES OF QUOTES PERTAINING TO THE NOVEMBER 22, 1963, ASSASSINATION
OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY BEGINS HERE:
"Not ONE SPECK of any bullets, bullet fragments, or bullet shells
OTHER THAN THOSE CONCLUSIVELY FROM OR CONSISTENT WITH LEE HARVEY
OSWALD'S MANNLICHER-CARCANO RIFLE were discovered anywhere in Dealey
Plaza, the limousine, the Texas School Book Depository, Parkland
Hospital, or in the victims."
Wow, what a statement! Totally false, but what a statement. This is
so misleading it is not funny. There were at least four bullets,
fragments and casings found in Dealey Plaza that DID NOT match the
Mannilicher-Carcano Lee H. Oswald allegedly used. There could be
more, but these were all found and turned into the FBI and HSCA for
analysis. Here they are again for the readers (I have told DVP about
these before, but he sees no need to mention them I guess.):
1) The Barbee Specimen: This was a fully intact bullet found at 1615
Stemmons Freeway in the summer of 1966. It was found by William
Barbee and it was embedded in the roof of a building that was about
1/4 of a mile from the TSBD and was in the line of fire from the
alleged SN. Mr. Barbee turned it over to the FBI in December 1967 for
analysis, he had not thoght before it could be tied to the
assassination, but recent publicity made him change his mind. The FBI
lab determined it to be a .30 caliber full metal jacketed bullet. Its
rifling patter of 4 grooves, right hand twist, was consistent with a .
30 government carbine (M-1 likely) NOT a Carcano rifle. The FBI lost
interest when it was determined not to be from LHO's alleged rifle,
why? The CIA had a number of M-1 .30 carbines with silencers as well,
but this was never explored. The M-1 was not used by hardly any
civilians in 1963 (were not released by the government for this use
until the summer of that year) for hunting, and the full metal
jacketed bullet was illegal for hunting purposes.
2) The Haythorne Specimen: Another bullet was found atop the Massey
bldg. in 1967 by Richard Haythorne, a roofer who was working on the
bldg. The Massey bldg. was about 8 blocks away from the TSBD and was
located at 1200 block of Elm St., and the bldg. has since been torn
down. Haythorne's attorney held it until it was given to the HSCA for
examination. The HSCA would utilize the services of the Washington
D.C. police dept., where it was determined that the bullet was a
jacketed, soft-point, .30 caliber bullet, weighing 149 grains and was
consistent with the .30 caliber ammo produced by Remington-Peters. The
six groove, right hand twist of the rifling marks on the bullet
indicated that the bullet was NOT shot from LHO's alleged Carcano.
This was a popular hunting load at the time.
3) The Lester Specimen: This was a bullet fragment and it was
discovered by Richard Lester in 1974. Its precise location was 500
yards from the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple overpass
abutment. Mr. Lester turned the fragment over to the FBI for testing
in December 1976. In July 1977, the FBI reported its findings for the
fragment, which consisted of the base portion of a bullet and weighed
52.7 grains, was consistent with the diameter of a 6.5mm bullet. It
was also determined that the fragment came from a metal jacketed
bullet that was a either hollow point or soft point. The rifling
characteristics DID NOT match those of a Carcano. It did have a 4
groove, right hand twist pattern like the Carcano, but the spacing was
further apart. Again, no one seemed interested in where it came
from.
4) The Dal-Tex Specimen: A rusty shell casing was found on the rooftop
of the Dal-Tex bldg. in 1977 by an air-conditioning repair man. The
bldg. is just east of the TSBD, across Houston St. What was most
interesting about this case was the crimping it had around the edges
of the neck, which indicates it was either hand-loaded or was used in
conjuction with a sabot (allows a smaller caliber bullet to be fired
from a higher velocity gun).
I guess these don't count for Davey since they DID NOT MATCH the
Carcano rifle.
"This fact, to me, is simply impossible for conspiracy advocates
to overcome, IF there had been (as some claim) up to three gunmen and
4 to 10 shots fired in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd, 1963."
This is why you need to be careful readers, DVP here calls it a FACT
that no other bullets, fragments or bullet shells were found and this
is NOT true, therefore, it is not a fact at all. There were several
other bullets found on the day of the shooting as well that were not
documented like the four specimens above. So one can see a number of
stray bullets in addition to those that did hit JFK and JBC. Always be
wary of the fact, unless you have done research yourself as some like
to twist things or only tell you what they want you to hear.
"HOW could every single scrap of ballistics evidence be completely
eradicated from the two (or more) non-Oswald weapons almost
immediately after the event? Couldn't have been accomplished by even
Kreskin!" -- David Von Pein; July 2003"
I'd lay of the humor and do more research if I were you.
David Von Pein
Imagine that!
YEARS later we have ballistics stuff suddenly APPEARING.
Kinda reminds me of Beverly Oliver, Gordon Arnold, and Judyth Baker.
I wonder where they were in 1963?
And I wonder where those four bullet specimens were in 1963 as well?
robcap...@netscape.com
So under your premise the whole field of Anthropology would be done
away with, right? Its old so it has no value, right? Do you think
there were other cases of rifles being shot off in Dealey Plaza? You
said NOTHING was found, you did not limit it by timeframe.
YoHarvey
wrote:
Ok, ya got me. I left two of those hulls in Dealey Plaza just to
confuse lunatics like you! Arrest me. Prove I didn't do it. I love
being a copycat.
David Von Pein
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/6468bf49068b7a3e
www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/21acb8d9aa4254eb
>>> "The Barbee Specimen: This was a fully intact bullet found at 1615 Stemmons Freeway in the summer of 1966. It was found by William Barbee and it was embedded in the roof of a building that was about 1/4 of a mile from the TSBD and was in the line of fire from the alleged SN. .... The Haythorne Specimen: Another bullet was found atop the Massey bldg. in 1967 by Richard Haythorne, a roofer who was working on the bldg. The Massey bldg. was about 8 blocks away from the TSBD and was located at 1200 block of Elm St." <<<
I just love the locations where these two bullet "specimens" were
supposedly discovered -- "1/4 of a mile" and "8 blocks" from the Book
Depository Building. LOL.
I guess the plotters were attempting to frame Sweet Patsy Oswald
(i.e., a DEPOSITORY worker) by firing off guns A QUARTER OF A MILE
**AND** EIGHT BLOCKS AWAY from where the proverbial patsy was located.
A lovely (and brilliant) "Patsy Plan" there, huh?
And just think...kooks like Robcap believe it! That's the biggest howl
of all.
BTW, Vince Bugliosi talks about the Lester bullet and the 1967 "Massey
Roofing" bullet in "Reclaiming History"....but the name "Barbee"
doesn't appear in the book's index at all (although that person might
still be mentioned somewhere in the book, because I've discovered
several omissions in the index, including Steve Barber, Saundra
Spencer, and Robert Knudsen, who are all covered in great detail
within "RH", but they aren't mentioned in the index at all).
And as far as I can recall, these "other bullets" aren't mentioned
very frequently even in most pro-conspiracy books. Go figure. So, it
would appear that even most conspiracy theorists don't deem these
bullets that were supposedly "found" YEARS after the assassination to
be credible or valuable evidence regarding the events of 11/22/63.
Anyway, here's what VB says about two of the four bullet specimens
brought up in this thread:
"A bullet fragment and a mutilated slug, which critics have
touted as evidence of a second rifle, were subjected to analysis in
1978. The fragment had been found in 1967 by a roofer working on top
of the Massey Roofing Company building in the 1200 block of Elm
Street--eight blocks from Dealey Plaza. The roofer gave it to his
attorney, Bill Mason, who in turn gave it to the HSCA ten years later,
in April 1977. (7 HSCA 358)
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0184b.htm
"The technical assistant to the HSCA firearms panel, George R.
Wilson, determined that it was a jacketed, soft-point .30 caliber
bullet, probably manufactured by Remington-Peters. The HSCA found no
reason to connect it with the assassination. (7 HSCA 362, 358)
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0186b.htm
"The mutilated slug has become much more famous in assassination
lore. On November 26, 1976, Richard Harold "Dick" Lester, a Dallas
nighttime security guard with a seventh-grade education, called the
Dallas FBI office and stated that for several years he had been going
to Dealey Plaza "looking around," and claimed that approximately two
years earlier, while using a metal detector in the area of the
assassination, he discovered what he believed to be a 6.5-millimeter
slug.
"On December 1, two Dallas FBI special agents, Robert P.
Gemberling and Larry Steging, interviewed Lester. He showed them the
slug and said he had found it on the railroad overpass directly above
the south side of Commerce Street between the narrow roadway and the
fence.
"His only explanation for waiting two years to call them was
that a KRLD radio talk show on the assassination in the late evening
of November 22, 1976, had caused him to think it would be a good idea.
Lester turned the slug, heavily mutilated, over to the agents and they
sent it to the FBI lab in Washington, D.C., for analysis." -- Vincent
Bugliosi; Pages 446-447 of "Reclaiming History" (CD Endnotes)(c.2007)
robcap...@netscape.com
> www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/browse_thread/thread/6468bf49...
>
> www.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/21acb8d9aa4254eb
>
> >>> "The Barbee Specimen: This was a fully intact bullet found at 1615 Stemmons Freeway in the summer of 1966. It was found by William Barbee and it was embedded in the roof of a building that was about 1/4 of a mile from the TSBD and was in the line of fire from the alleged SN. .... The Haythorne Specimen: Another bullet was found atop the Massey bldg. in 1967 by Richard Haythorne, a roofer who was working on the bldg. The Massey bldg. was about 8 blocks away from the TSBD and was located at 1200 block of Elm St." <<<
"I just love the locations where these two bullet "specimens" were
supposedly discovered -- "1/4 of a mile" and "8 blocks" from the Book
Depository Building. LOL."
I guess Davey doesn't understand for a bullet a 1/4 of a mile is no
big deal. He also doesn't get it probably was a miss that hit the
roof of the building. 8 blocks is NO real big deal and it was a
closer miss. For high-powered rifles (like the one listed as cause of
death) these distances are no big deal.
"I guess the plotters were attempting to frame Sweet Patsy Oswald
(i.e., a DEPOSITORY worker) by firing off guns A QUARTER OF A MILE
**AND** EIGHT BLOCKS AWAY from where the proverbial patsy was located.
A lovely (and brilliant) "Patsy Plan" there, huh?"
No, they were trying to kill JFK. The people who handled the planting
of "evidence" took care of the patsy, LHO, not the shooters. These
were not found for years, and if they had been they would have just
disappeared like all other evidence that did not match the LHO
scenario.
"And just think...kooks like Robcap believe it! That's the biggest
howl of all."
The biggest howl is that Davey has NO understanding of firearms at
all, yet he is so sure a man is guilty of killing two men with
firearms. It's like non-forensic pathologists doing an autopsy of a
man who was shot to death, oh wait, that happened in this case, didn't
it?
"BTW, Vince Bugliosi talks about the Lester bullet and the 1967
"Massey Roofing" bullet in "Reclaiming History"....but the name
"Barbee" doesn't appear in the book's index at all (although that
person might still be mentioned somewhere in the book, because I've
discovered several omissions in the index, including Steve Barber,
aundra Spencer, and Robert Knudsen, who are all covered in great
detail within "RH", but they aren't mentioned in the index at all)."
Who cares what Bugman lists in his index, certainly not I. I knew
Davey would run to his savior for help.
"And as far as I can recall, these "other bullets" aren't mentioned
very frequently even in most pro-conspiracy books. Go figure. So, it
would appear that even most conspiracy theorists don't deem these
bullets that were supposedly "found" YEARS after the assassination to
be credible or valuable evidence regarding the events of 11/22/63."
And you have read how many conspiracy books? You obviously have no
clue about the Cold Case department of each police department. If
bullets found a few years or even ten years later were of no value,
they wouldn't waste tax money on these departments. Your lack of
knowledge about them does not make them disappear, thus, your
statement of fact saying NOTHING was ever found in DP, etc... is not
true.
"Anyway, here's what VB says about two of the four bullet specimens
brought up in this thread:"
Yippee, I get to debate DVP and Bugman at the same time.
"A bullet fragment and a mutilated slug, which critics have touted as
evidence of a second rifle, were subjected to analysis in 1978. The
fragment had been found in 1967 by a roofer working on top of the
Massey Roofing Company building in the 1200 block of Elm Street--eight
blocks from Dealey Plaza. The roofer gave it to his
attorney, Bill Mason, who in turn gave it to the HSCA ten years later,
in April 1977. (7 HSCA 358)
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA...
"The technical assistant to the HSCA firearms panel, George R. Wilson,
determined that it was a jacketed, soft-point .30 caliber bullet,
probably manufactured by Remington-Peters. The HSCA found no reason to
connect it with the assassination. (7 HSCA 362, 358)"
What made them draw this conclusion? Do people go deer hunting in DP
very often? It is inexcuseable for them NOT to explore this bullet
and see why it was there. To just dismiss without looking into it
makes it seem like they have something to hide, then you wonder why
the CT group grows and grows.
> http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA...
"The mutilated slug has become much more famous in assassination lore.
On November 26, 1976, Richard Harold "Dick" Lester, a Dallas nighttime
security guard with a seventh-grade education, called the Dallas FBI
office and stated that for several years he had been going to Dealey
Plaza "looking around," and claimed that approximately two years
earlier, while using a metal detector in the area of the
assassination, he discovered what he believed to be a 6.5-millimeter
slug."
Talk about character assassination! Why is it important to state for
the whole world that Mr. Lester had a seventh-grade education? What
does that have to do with him finding this specimen? Nothing, Bugman
is justt attempting to discredit him and by extension, what he found.
"On December 1, two Dallas FBI special agents, Robert P. Gemberling
and Larry Steging, interviewed Lester. He showed them the slug and
said he had found it on the railroad overpass directly above the south
side of Commerce Street between the narrow roadway and the fence.
His only explanation for waiting two years to call them was that a
KRLD radio talk show on the assassination in the late evening of
November 22, 1976, had caused him to think it would be a good idea.
Lester turned the slug, heavily mutilated, over to the agents and they
sent it to the FBI lab in Washington, D.C., for analysis." -- Vincent
Bugliosi; Pages 446-447 of "Reclaiming History" (CD Endnotes)(c.2007)"
And this effects the fact that it DID NOT match the Carcano how? He
is a master at saying nothing, typical lawyer.
David Von Pein
So, let me get this straight -- You think that TWO different non-
Oswald gunmen fired bullets at JFK's car (which was ON ELM STREET),
and that one of these two bullets somehow ended up "embedded in the
roof of a building that was about 1/4 of a mile from the TSBD", while
the other bullet ended up "atop the Massey Building...about 8 blocks
away from the TSBD". Correct?
One logical question, therefore, needs to be asked at this point:
WHAT IN THE THE HELL WERE THOSE BLIND-AS-A-BAT GUNMEN AIMING AT?!
They surely weren't aiming their guns at John F. Kennedy if their
bullets ended up on the ROOFS of two different buildings many BLOCKS
from Dealey Plaza. They must have been aiming at some pigeons in the
area.
Or: Maybe those shooters were using rubber ("bouncing") bullets....the
kind that bounce onto rooftops after hitting the area on ELM STREET
where these goofs SHOULD be aiming their weapons.
Plus: The "Lester" bullet leads to another hilarious scenario, one
that would have to include some idiot (and also apparently-blind)
rifleman firing a shot at JFK (who is on the STREET below) and somehow
having his spent bullet ending up on the railroad overpass, many feet
HIGHER than Elm Street.
Again, was it a bouncing bullet? Or maybe the gunman was aiming at
S.M. Holland or Austin Miller on the overpass, huh?
Footnote --- I shall be big enough to eat my share of crow with
respect to my previous post on this subject. In looking over that
post, I realized I erred when I asserted that the (supposed) gunmen
who fired those bullets that (supposedly/allegedly) ended up on nearby
rooftops many blocks from the Depository would have been "firing off
guns A QUARTER OF A MILE **AND** EIGHT BLOCKS AWAY from where the
proverbial patsy was located".
I was thinking in terms of only bullet SHELL CASES being (supposedly)
found on those nearby rooftops, not the bullets themselves, which
would mean (if only shell cases were found on the roofs) that the
gunmen themselves would have been firing FROM those rooftops.
But I now realize I goofed in that assertion, because (supposedly)
we're talking about where the actual spent bullets ENDED UP in these
instances, and not the (supposed) shooting location(s) from where they
originated.
But, even though I had the "origin"/"destination" thing mixed up, it's
still quite easy to shoot down the idea that any of these alleged
"other" bullets were actually involved in the assassination on
11/22/63, which I've already done above. Ordinary common sense (and
basic trajectory lines) destroy that idea right off the bat. (Unless
some CTers really DO want to believe that TWO bullets ended up on
ROOFTOPS after the dust had settled in Dealey Plaza. Sounds pretty
loony to me though.)
>>> "They were trying to kill JFK. The people who handled the planting of "evidence" took care of the patsy, LHO, not the shooters." <<<
But I know damn well that you think Oswald was being "SET UP" in
ADVANCE of 11/22. All rabid "ABO" CT-Kooks like you believe in that
scenario, right? This is due to your crazy beliefs that the Backyard
Photos are "fakes" and that there were "Imposter Oswalds" running
around well PRIOR to November 22, etc.
Therefore, via those kind of pre-11/22 beliefs, it must mean that some
of the "plotters"/"assassins" WERE, indeed, attempting to frame Mr.
Oswald as their lone "Patsy" for the assassination.
Therefore, how much sense does it make to utilize several different
gunmen to kill JFK, firing from opposite directions and with different
types of guns (which could never be traced to the "patsy" in the
TSBD)?
It's just...stupid. And suicidal. And totally unnecessary, to boot, if
your killers are "pros", that is, which most of you kooks believe was
the case.
But, per these "other bullet specimens" we've been talking about here,
I guess maybe the kooks will have to retract that business about the
"real assassins" being "professional hit men".
Because, per the locations of those rooftop bullets, it seems to me
that those shooters might as well have stayed home on November 22,
1963. For, they didn't come within a country mile of hitting John F.
Kennedy with their bullets.
YoHarvey
I found a bullet slug in Columbus, Ohio once. Guess I should have
called the FBI huh?
Walt
Hey Von Pea Brain.... If you'd just learn a little of the FACTUAL
information about this case then perhaps you'd learn that an aura of
fear permeated Dallas after the murders of President Kennedy and Lee
Oswald. Anybody who had witnessed anything that was contrary to the
official story learned real quick that is was unhealthy to reveal what
they had seen and heard. .... Ya really should put down da Bug's flop-
a-roo book, and do just a little HONEST research, perhaps then you
won't appear to be so damned dumb.
Walt
Gil Jesus
> On 28 Dec, 18:53, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Wow....bullets and shells turning up in 1966, 1967, 1974, and 1977!
> > Imagine that!
>
> > YEARS later we have ballistics stuff suddenly APPEARING.
>
> > Kinda reminds me of Beverly Oliver, Gordon Arnold, and Judyth Baker.
>
> > I wonder where they were in 1963?
>
> > And I wonder where those four bullet specimens were in 1963 as well?
It just goes to prove that the FBI never did a THOROUGH investigation,
otherwise that evidence would have been in the hands of Hoover's men.
Instead, Hoover IGNORED ALL evidence that did not point to Oswald as
the culprit. That's why this evidence, that had been there all along,
was not known about until someone stumbled upon it years later. Had
the FBI done a NORMAL and COMPLETE criminal investigation, that
evidence would be in the National Archives.
The fact that it was found years later is a testament to the failure
of the FBI to do a thorough investigation.
aeffects
> On 28 Dec, 18:53, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > Wow....bullets and shells turning up in 1966, 1967, 1974, and 1977!
> > Imagine that!
>
> > YEARS later we have ballistics stuff suddenly APPEARING.
>
> > Kinda reminds me of Beverly Oliver, Gordon Arnold, and Judyth Baker.
>
> > I wonder where they were in 1963?
>
> > And I wonder where those four bullet specimens were in 1963 as well?
>
> Hey Von Pea Brain.... If you'd just learn a little of the FACTUAL
> information about this case then perhaps you'd learn that an aura of
> fear permeated Dallas after the murders of President Kennedy and Lee
> Oswald.
He's too busy sorting through his Lone Nut daBugliosi database AND
copying and pasting to learn anything regarding "FACTUAL
INFORMATION" :)
robcap...@netscape.com
> >>> "I guess Davey doesn't understand for a bullet a 1/4 of a mile is no big deal. He also doesn't get it probably was a miss that hit the roof of the building. 8 blocks is NO real big deal and it was a closer miss." <<<
"So, let me get this straight -- You think that TWO different non-
Oswald gunmen fired bullets at JFK's car (which was ON ELM STREET),
and that one of these two bullets somehow ended up "embedded in the
roof of a building that was about 1/4 of a mile from the TSBD", while
the other bullet ended up "atop the Massey Building...about 8 blocks
away from the TSBD". Correct?"
Yes, there were multiple gunmen in DP that day. If you could get the
idea of a questionable Carcano with a loose scope out of your head and
look at the consistent mention of .30 caliber ammo being found you
would see it too. This type of ammo (.30 caliber) is common military
and hunting ammo. It has been shown, through research, that the CIA
purchased 1000 .30 caliber rifles with silencers from the military
when they were upgrading and did not need them anymore. The CIA has
been linked to the assassination in many ways, only the blind continue
not to see this for themselves.
"One logical question, therefore, needs to be asked at this point:
WHAT IN THE THE HELL WERE THOSE BLIND-AS-A-BAT GUNMEN AIMING AT?!"
Again, more ingnorance on Davey's behalf. Who said they had to be
fired? The bullets found on the roofs could have been left by the
shooters, right?
"They surely weren't aiming their guns at John F. Kennedy if their
bullets ended up on the ROOFS of two different buildings many BLOCKS
from Dealey Plaza. They must have been aiming at some pigeons in the
area."
No they weren't, that is why I believe they were left or drooped by
the shooters on that day. Provide another reason for them being there
then. Who knows what made them miss, perhaps they were just
distraction shots. Give me another reasonable explanation why bullets
are found on the roofs of building in DP and I'll consider them.
"Or: Maybe those shooters were using rubber ("bouncing")
bullets....the kind that bounce onto rooftops after hitting the area
on ELM STREET where these goofs SHOULD be aiming their weapons."
We know this was NOT the case smart-alick since these bullets were
analyzed by the FBI and the Washington D.C. police dept.
"Plus: The "Lester" bullet leads to another hilarious scenario, one
that would have to include some idiot (and also apparently-blind)
rifleman firing a shot at JFK (who is on the STREET below) and somehow
having his spent bullet ending up on the railroad overpass, many feet
HIGHER than Elm Street."
This was a "fragment" so we know it was fired at the limo and it
missed. Quite a few bullets missed and there are records of damage
done by these misses. Nothing funny about it. Dave thinks every shot
is going to hit I guess, it shows how littel he knows about shooting a
rifle I guess. Even the best snipers in the world miss, so it is not
uncommon for this to happen. Especially when shooting at the
President, adreline and nerves play a part.
"Again, was it a bouncing bullet? Or maybe the gunman was aiming at
S.M. Holland or Austin Miller on the overpass, huh?"
Quit trying to joke your way out of the outright falsehood you
posted. You should learn the facts of the case and maybe you wouldn't
believe this ludicrous theory anymore.
"Footnote --- I shall be big enough to eat my share of crow with
respect to my previous post on this subject. In looking over that
post, I realized I erred when I asserted that the (supposed) gunmen
who fired those bullets that supposedly/allegedly) ended up on nearby
rooftops many blocks from the Depository would have been "firing off
guns A QUARTER OF A MILE **AND** EIGHT BLOCKS AWAY from where the
proverbial patsy was located".
I was thinking in terms of only bullet SHELL CASES being (supposedly)
found on those nearby rooftops, not the bullets themselves, which
would mean (if only shell cases were found on the roofs) that the
gunmen themselves would have been firing FROM those rooftops.
But I now realize I goofed in that assertion, because (supposedly)
we're talking about where the actual spent bullets ENDED UP in these
instances, and not the (supposed) shooting location(s) from where they
originated."
Not necessarily, although that is a possibility, as the possibility
the two whole bullets were left by the shooters on the roofs of those
buildings. Now, I'll admit, they had rifling characteristics so this
meant they were fired at least once, but as we saw with the planted
evidence for the Carcano, so I it is not far-fetched to think they
were fired into something soft and then re-used. I can't prove it, so
the miss as a distraction is the other good explanation for these two
shots that went off course.
"But, even though I had the "origin"/"destination" thing mixed up,
it's still quite easy to shoot down the idea that any of these alleged
"other" bullets were actually involved in the assassination on
11/22/63, which I've already done above. Ordinary common sense (and
basic trajectory lines) destroy that idea right off the bat. (Unless
some CTers really DO want to believe that TWO bullets ended up on
ROOFTOPS after the dust had settled in Dealey Plaza. Sounds pretty
loony to me though.)"
Sure it does (sounds loony) if you stick with the alleged shooting
scenario, but if we consider other positions for the shooters it
doesn't. Obviously this confirms there were shooters in the FRONT of
the car for sure since the bullets were found BEHIND the car's
location. This is why Davey does NOT want to acknowledge them,
because it shows shooters were in front and back of the car. This
means conspiracy.
> >>> "They were trying to kill JFK. The people who handled the planting of "evidence" took care of the patsy, LHO, not the shooters." <<<
"But I know damn well that you think Oswald was being "SET UP" in
ADVANCE of 11/22. All rabid "ABO" CT-Kooks like you believe in that
scenario, right? This is due to your crazy beliefs that the Backyard
Photos are "fakes" and that there were "Imposter Oswalds" running
around well PRIOR to November 22, etc.
Therefore, via those kind of pre-11/22 beliefs, it must mean that some
of the "plotters"/"assassins" WERE, indeed, attempting to frame Mr.
Oswald as their lone "Patsy" for the assassination.
Therefore, how much sense does it make to utilize several different
gunmen to kill JFK, firing from opposite directions and with different
types of guns (which could never be traced to the "patsy" in the
TSBD)?"
You are confused. They used good guns to shoot JFK, and by extension
JBC, as no professional would use the Carcano with a loose scope. The
evidence for the Carcano was created before the day as the shells were
fired (and one may have been fired from another rifle as well based on
the marks) and the plant bullet, CE399, and fragments (found in the
limo) were also prepared ahead of time. The Carcano MAY have been
fired once as a distraction shot, but it is likely it was not fired at
all that day. The WC and the FBI made sure only the "evidence" that
matched the Carcano would wind-up in the ledger and everything else
would be discarded. You have proof of this as these bullets,
fragments and casing were given to the authorities and they showed no
interest whatsoever because they were not from the Carcano.
"It's just...stupid. And suicidal. And totally unnecessary, to boot,
if your killers are "pros", that is, which most of you kooks believe
was the case."
Your line of thinking is way off. The cover-up is the key part of any
conspiracy as it makes sure the "evidence" matches the alleged doer,
and it is also responsible for the destruction of evidence that shows
the real scenario. This is not what you are getting, of course they
had no fear doing it the right way on 11/22/63 as they knew it would
be "cleaned-up" later. Nothing suicidal about it.
"But, per these "other bullet specimens" we've been talking about
here, I guess maybe the kooks will have to retract that business about
the "real assassins" being "professional hit men"."
No, it shows there were shooters in front and back of the car, this is
why Davey wants to deny their existence.
"Because, per the locations of those rooftop bullets, it seems to me
that those shooters might as well have stayed home on November 22,
1963. For, they didn't come within a country mile of hitting John F.
Kennedy with their bullets."
This is all so far-fetched Dave was honest about them being found,
right? No, Dave fibbed because he knows the IMPORTANCE of these items
in the case for conspiracy.
Walt
wrote:
> On Dec 29, 1:04 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > >>> "I guess Davey doesn't understand for a bullet a 1/4 of a mile is no big deal. He also doesn't get it probably was a miss that hit the roof of the building. 8 blocks is NO real big deal and it was a closer miss." <<<
>
> > >>> "I guess Davey doesn't understand for a bullet a 1/4 of a mile is no big deal. He also doesn't get it probably was a miss that hit the roof of the building. 8 blocks is NO real big deal and it was a closer miss." <<<
Yer right Rob....Von Pea Brain really don't know much about
anything..... Because he's never learned to THINK.. I just happen to
have a box of .22 shells right here in front of me. These puny
little shells are not anywhere near as powerful as a center-fire rifle
cartridge, and yet The manufacturer ( Winchester) puts this warning on
the box:...
CAUTION: Dangerous within 1 1/2 miles
David Von Pein
Yeah...that's why people like Bill Newman, Skinny Holland, Jean Hill,
J.C. Price, Acquilla Clemmons, and James Simmons (and scads more so-
called "pro-CT" witnesses) were allowed to live after telling their
tales of "conspiracy" to the world, right Walt The Moron?
You kooks actually think people like Lee Bowers and Earlene Roberts
(et al) were "bumped off" by the "Mystery Death Squad"...even though
they had ALREADY TALKED ON THE RECORD (AND ON FILM!) about what they
saw on 11/22.
Nothin' like bumping off a guy AFTER the beans have already been
spilled, huh?
IOW--Why the fuck bother? (Just for the practice?)
David Von Pein
Thanks. Now I get to ridicule this "other bullets" theory from my
first POV (which I later corrected, due to at least one of the bullets
supposedly being found in a "mutilated" condition and another having
been "embedded" in the roof's surface; I guess one of the shooters was
Hercules, in that he was able to "embed" an UNFIRED bullet into the
roof somehow; <lol time>).....
.....but now it appears that Rob-Kook apparently wants to actually
believe that the plotters WOULD, indeed, have placed shooters some
EIGHT BLOCKS and/or ONE-FOURTH OF A MILE from the Depository within an
assassination plot where they are attempting to FRAME ONLY OSWALD IN
THE TSBD.
Ya gotta love the idiocy of this plan -- the always-unnamed "They" are
trying to frame that hapless sap named Oswald by putting a couple of
shooters on top of buildings that aren't even located in DEALEY PLAZA
at all! Lovely.
And then they evidently put yet another shooter on top of the Overpass
ACROSS THE STREET FROM OSWALD ON THE COMMERCE SIDE OF MAIN STREET! (So
this shooter's bullets, if they strike anyone in the limo, can never
in a million years be traced back to Oswald's window.)
A gorgeous plot, huh? (If you WANT your "single patsy" plan to crumble
to bits within two seconds of the shots ringing out, that is.)
And to think....people actually believe similar nonsense...Oliver
Stone and his faithful following to name but a few thousand.
============================================
COMMON SENSE BREAK.......
THE "PATSY PLOT" SILLINESS (PART 1):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/606503e4d63e74ad
THE "PATSY PLOT" SILLINESS (PART 2):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/dd321914097fcd2d
THE "PATSY PLOT" SILLINESS (PART 3):
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/30f318ea48653a72
============================================
robcap...@netscape.com
> On 29 Dec, 13:21, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 29, 1:04 am, David Von Pein <davevonp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > >>> "I guess Davey doesn't understand for a bullet a 1/4 of a mile is no big deal. He also doesn't get it probably was a miss that hit the roof of the building. 8 blocks is NO real big deal and it was a closer miss." <<<
>
> > > >>> "I guess Davey doesn't understand for a bullet a 1/4 of a mile is no big deal. He also doesn't get it probably was a miss that hit the roof of the building. 8 blocks is NO real big deal and it was a closer miss." <<<
>
> Yer right Rob....Von Pea Brain really don't know much about
> anything..... Because he's never learned to THINK.. I just happen to
> have a box of .22 shells right here in front of me. These puny
> little shells are not anywhere near as powerful as a center-fire rifle
> cartridge, and yet The manufacturer ( Winchester) puts this warning on
> the box:...
> CAUTION: Dangerous within 1 1/2 miles
Walt, hopefully Dave won't wander into the wrong area when he goes
deer hunting the next time. I guess he doesn't get this is the reason
so many people get hurt hunting, not because someone actually shot at
them, but a stray hit them.
> > in the case for conspiracy.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
> >>> "Who said they had to be fired? The bullets found on the roofs could have been left by the shooters, right?" <<<
"Thanks. Now I get to ridicule this "other bullets" theory from my
first POV (which I later corrected, due to at least one of the bullets
supposedly being found in a "mutilated" condition and another having
been "embedded" in the roof's surface; I guess one of the shooters was
Hercules, in that he was able to "embed" an UNFIRED bullet into the
roof somehow; <lol time>)....."
You are right, it was a thought and I was trying to get you off the
hook. I personally think they came from the front and missed.
".....but now it appears that Rob-Kook apparently wants to actually
believe that the plotters WOULD, indeed, have placed shooters some
EIGHT BLOCKS and/or ONE-FOURTH OF A MILE from the Depository within an
assassination plot where they are attempting to FRAME ONLY OSWALD IN
THE TSBD."
You just don't get it, do you. A 1/4 mile away is nothing for a
professional with a high-velocity gun and a good scope (you know, not
loose). The scope will bring the target so close it will feel like
you are right behind or in front of him. Obviously wind plays a
greater role the further away you are, and it was windy, that is why
it had to be a professional shooting. Dave just can't seperate the
deed from the cover-up, he is hopeless.
"Ya gotta love the idiocy of this plan -- the always-unnamed "They"
are trying to frame that hapless sap named Oswald by putting a couple
of shooters on top of buildings that aren't even located in DEALEY
PLAZA at all! Lovely."
They "they" really doesn't matter in terms of the shooters. It is the
powers that control the shooters and the cover-up that matter. If
anyone has read the true history of America, and all powers over time,
it is not hard to see what groups are behind the shooting. If simple
is what you want, you shouldn't be studying the assassination of the
leader of a world superpower then. You don't change the course of a
democracy with a lone nut.
"And then they evidently put yet another shooter on top of the
Overpass ACROSS THE STREET FROM OSWALD ON THE COMMERCE SIDE OF MAIN
STREET! (So this shooter's bullets, if they strike anyone in the limo,
can never in a million years be traced back to Oswald's window.)"
Boy, you are slow, why do I bother? Practice I guess.
"A gorgeous plot, huh? (If you WANT your "single patsy" plan to
crumble to bits within two seconds of the shots ringing out, that
is.)"
The definition of patsy is a fall guy, of course they don't need real
evidence to frame him, thus the term, frame. Get with it.
"And to think....people actually believe similar nonsense...Oliver
Stone and his faithful following to name but a few thousand."
Dave's total lack of the world history is showing. I guess kings,
emperors, and other rulers have always died do to "lone nuts." I
think this is an American invention.
David Von Pein
<chuckle/chortle>
I sure hope like hell that I never get within six miles of those
crappy assassins that you've got firing bullets in Dealey Plaza....you
know, those whiz-bang ace gunmen who are aiming at JFK on the STREET
BELOW THEM, but having their bullets landing on rooftops many blocks
from the Plaza.
Or would you rather go back to "Plan 9 From Kookville" today, Rob?
I.E., the scenario that has the shooters themselves, within the
confines of a "LET'S FRAME LHO" plot, being placed on those rooftops
as they drop mutilated spent bullets on the roofs of buildings before
fleeing the area.
Either scenario is goofy as all get out. But I'm sure they both sound
highly plausible to a goof like Rob.
David Von Pein
What were those gunmen aiming at? Were they aiming at JFK on Elm
Street or Superman in his red cape flying over Dealey Plaza?
robcap...@netscape.com
I wasn't there so I don't know for sure, but they probably were firing
in an upward trajectory from street level and it hit the roof.
Another possibility is someone was higher up (the triple underpass has
been mentioned before) and that would line up with the Dal-Tex miss.
I notice you did not take me up on the offer of explaining how they
got there. I don't know of any other time rifles were fired in DP,
how about you?
YoHarvey
wrote:
WHAT IN THE THE HELL WERE THOSE BLIND-AS-A-BAT GUNMEN AIMING AT?!
roflmao David. ^5