Marty Baughman - Evidence for other bullets in Dealey Plaza
Ben Holmes
A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass has
been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation found on
McAdams site, he does post the pictures. (Sadly, he's not honest enough to tell
you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actually
was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores the
earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
earliest ones): http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a good synopsis
of some of the evidence for other bullets:
************************************************************************
As the limousine passed the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository,
five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the left
front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete in the
direction of the car (Michael Griffith, "Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in
Dealey Plaza"; Weisberg, Whitewash, 187-89).
Royce Skelton was a railroad worker watching the motorcade from atop the triple
underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a
bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the President's
car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- away from the
building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard
object, it will scatter -- it will spread" (6 H 238).
Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis was riding a motorcycle about 100 feet in front
of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned the
limousine and saw debris fly up, presumably from this same bullet strike (John
S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw it; she
believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple underpass (7 H
508-10).
One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just south of Elm
Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Foster was
standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw
the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was instructed
to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystanders were kept
away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, although, again,
it would have to have been a truly terrible shot.
Wayne and Edna Hartman were near Dealey Plaza when the shots rang out. They ran
through the Plaza and encountered a policeman on the grassy knoll. Edna Hartman
later recalled to Jim Marrs, "He pointed to some bushes near the railroad tracks
on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from. . . .
Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mounds
made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the policeman said,
'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs, Crossfire,
315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men in
plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a
bullet" (19 H 467-68).
Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of pictures
showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes) and
watching a blond-haired man he believed to be an FBI agent point at the dug-out
spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something up from the
turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry said the man was
FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI Special Agent
Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Murray also
photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been
cleared; this photograph ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star-Telegram,
captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy
lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reported in
reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime
lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where
one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
Richard Randolph Carr . . . heard four shots fired, the last three of which he
believed came from behind the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. He saw
a bullet strike the turf opposite the knoll where it "knocked a bunch of grass
up." Judging from the mark on the grass, Carr said the bullet had been
traveling in a southeast direction from the knoll toward the Criminal Courts
building at Elm and Houston (Shaw trial transcript; HSCA volumes; Craig).
Richard Dudman wrote in the December 21, 1963, New Republic: "On the say the
President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of
police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the
President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another
bullet in the grass."
The Warren Commission took Buddy Walthers' word that it wasn't a bullet or
bullet fragment.
There was another bullet strike only about three to five feet from this one,
but it wasn't noticed right away. Dealey Plaza witness John Martin discovered
it two and a half hours after the shooting, and quickly informed a policeman,
"you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that will
show you where the bullet came from" (Griffith; Trask, 573). The mark very
clearly does not point back to the Texas School Book Depository; it appears to
have struck from the direction of the County Records Building, where a 30.06
bullet shell was found later (Griffith; Trask, 573).
Jim Murray took a number of photographs of police officers examining the spot,
including identifications officer Lt. Carl Day, who spent some time at this
spot with his crime lab kit (Trask). Because of the close proximity of the
strikes, it is possible that a bullet struck the manhole and bounced into the
grass, but given the high visibility of the grass strike and the reasonably
deep gouge in the turf, it's unlikely.
Another bullet struck the sidewalk along the north side of Elm Street. It
apparently was first discovered a day or two later by Dallas resident Eugene
Aldredge -- a gash about four inches long and a quarter of an inch deep.
Aldredge didn't report it to anyone, assuming it had not gone unnoticed by the
authorities. At least one photograph of it was taken; it is pictured on several
books, including Groden's The Killing of the President, 40. After the Warren
Report came out, Aldredge was shocked not to see the missed bullet mentioned and
notified the FBI (Weisberg, Never Again, 383-390). The FBI located it and wrote
up a report describing it as approximately four inches long, a half inch wide,
and a "dug out" appearance. Dallas Morning News reporter Carl Freund also
identified the mark as a bullet strike. Groden notes that the gash lines up with
the southwest sixth floor TSBD window; Harrison Livingstone notes it also lines
up with the south storm drain by the triple underpass (Griffith; Livingstone,
High Treason 2).
There are numerous reports of other missed shots; some bullets have even been
found in Dealey Plaza, literally years after the assassination. In 1975, a
maintenance man named Morgan found a 30.06 shell on the roof of the County
Records Building, which is about half a block south of the Book Depository. The
casing has an odd crimp in its neck, suggesting it may have been fired from a
sabot, a device used to fire a smaller caliber bullet out of a large caliber
weapon. This is useful for criminals, as the caliber, type, and brand of the
recovered bullet cannot be linked with their gun (Marrs, Crossfire, 317). The
shell had been hidden underneath a lip of roofing tar, and was greatly
deteriorated from exposure to moisture; it had obviously been there a while.
A fired but intact bullet was found on the top of the Massey Roofing Co.
building on Elm Street, about eight blocks from the TSBD, by Richard Haythorne
in 1967. No official study was made until the HSCA pronounced it a jacketed,
soft-point .30 caliber bullet consistent with Remington-Peters ammunition; it
had not been fired from the 6.5 caliber Mannlicher-Carcano (7 HSCA 357; Carol
Hewett, "Silencers, Sniper Rifles & the CIA"; Craig).
In 1974, Dallas resident Richard Lester swept Dealey Plaza with a metal
detector, and discovered a fragment -- the base portion of a bullet -- 500
yards southwest of the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple underpass. Later he
turned it over to the FBI, and it was studied by the House Select Committee on
Assassinations in 1978. They found that the fragment was from a 6.5 mm bullet,
but that it had not been fired from the alleged "Oswald" Mannlicher-Carcano: its
rifling pattern was different (Associated Press, January 5, 1978; 7 HSCA 395;
Hewett). A whole, unfired .45 caliber bullet was found in 1976 by Hal Luster by
the concrete retaining wall on the knoll (Dallas Morning News,
December 23, 1978).
In the summer of 1966, an intact bullet was found lodged in the roof of a
building at 1615 Stemmons Freeway by William Barbee. The building was about a
quarter mile away from the Texas School Book Depository -- within rifle range
-- in the direction that Oswald had allegedly fired. The FBI identified the
bullet as a .30 caliber full metal jacketed military bullet; its rifling
pattern of four grooves, right hand twist is consistent with ammunition of US
manufacture. This is the type of bullet the CIA used with their silenced M-1
.30 caliber carbine rifles; civilians were not allowed to purchase them until
the middle of 1963, and full metal jacketed bullets are illegal for use in
hunting (Hewett, citing FBI Doc. #62-109060-5898).
Two spent Remington .222 bullet casings were found in Dealey Plaza by John
Rademacher, about eighty feet apart, one on each end of the concrete pergola
that stands midway between the Texas School Book Depository and the triple
underpass. One was just to the east, while the other was just west of it,
between the pergola and the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. One of
the casings has strange indentations which appear to be teeth marks on it.
Carol Hewett also notes, "The HSCA makes passing reference to the 'Walder'
bullet that was also submitted for testing; the author could find no other
mention of this particular item of evidence" (citing 7 HSCA 157). Hewett also
references "the report from a top FBI administrator, Alan Belmont, to Clyde
Tolson, Hoover's second in command, in which Belmont on the night of November
22nd advises that a bullet has been found lodged behind the President's ear"
(citing FBI Doc. #62-109060-1431), consistent with the Sibert-O'Neill evidence
envelope that was supposed to contain a "missile," not a fragment or fragments.
Is there any evidence that there were once more bullets or fragments than are
now in the record?
In Arlen Specter's published questioning of the autopsy pathologists, he makes
repeated references to a file originally designated CD 371, then renamed as it
was entered into evidence. Specter introduces Commission Exhibit 397, stating
it is the identical file previously marked CD 371 "for our internal purposes"
(2 H 323). Researcher Harold Weisberg was the first person to notice that CE
397 seemed to be missing several items, so he went to the National Archives to
inspect the CD 371. He found some interesting differences between the
'identical' files (Weisberg, Post Mortem, 251). One notable document is a list
of eleven items written by Secret Service officer Robert I . Bouck, head of the
Protective Research Section, on Treasury Department letterhead, dated November
26, 1963. It acknowledges receipt of eleven items from Admiral George G.
Burkley, who had been John F. Kennedy's personal physician, and who took
possession (not necessarily in a legal manner) of a number of the autopsy
records. The seventh item on the list reads, "One receipt from FBI for a
missile recovered during the examination of the body."
A missile is a bullet. It is not a bullet fragment; a fragment is a piece of a
ruptured missile. Numerous minute fragments were recovered from the President's
body during the autopsy. Not a single receipt for a fragment or fragments is
listed on this document; they were transferred separately. This is a receipt for
an intact bullet recovered from John F. Kennedy's body; it appeared in print for
the first time in Weisberg's 1975 book, Post Mortem, 527.
Researcher Anna-Marie Kuhns-Walko turned up some interesting items at the
National Archives in 1996: photographs (several) labeled as being of a bullet
"removed from President Kennedy's body." It is not one of the tiny fragments
that have been part of the record for thirty-five years. No other information
is available: no photographer listed; no indication of when it was recovered;
or what part of the body it came from; or if it was recovered at Parkland,
Bethesda, or elsewhere. Just several photos of a bullet "removed from President
Kennedy's body" that no one's ever seen before.
Anna-Marie also discovered an empty envelope, originally marked, "Shell 7.5
found in Dealey Plaza 11/22/63. This would be an expended cartridge found
somewhere in Dealey Plaza, presumably not far from where it was fired; and
regardless of where in Dealey Plaza it was found (which the envelope doesn't
state), it's a 7.5 caliber, not a 6.5 caliber like the Mannlicher-Carcano. No
one outside a very select circle, apparently, ever heard of this item before.
Why is the envelope empty? Written right after the previously quoted
description: "DETERMINED OF NO VALUE AND DESTROYED."
*********************************************************************
The above post was snipped to the relevant paragraphs dealing with evidence for
more than 3 bullets. I invite everyone to Google and read the original if
interested. There's more material in the original - and I snipped out some good
stuff that simply wasn't relevant to this post.
Clearly *some* of the snippets above could easily be referring to the *same*
bullet - simply at different perspective by different eyewitnesses. And some of
the snippets above could easily have had *no* relevance to 11/22/63. But the WC
ignored and ran from such evidence with a determination that can only lead
thoughtful people to the conclusion that they had already made up their minds.
The point I might make here is... where did the WC deal with all of this
evidence? Can anyone point to *ANY* attempt by the WC to explain away this
massive amount of evidence for more than three bullets? Examine the evidence at
all? Ask the FBI for clarification?
Todd W. Vaughan
wrote:
> A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass has
> been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation found on
> McAdams site, he does post the pictures. ย (Sadly, he's not honest enough to tell
> you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actually
> was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores the
> earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
> earliest ones):http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
>
> These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a good synopsis
> of some of the evidence for other bullets:
One of your "snippets" reads "Officer J. W. Foster was standing on top
of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw the
bullet strike the turf."
But oficer Foster NEVER said he saw any such thing.
Why do you spread such lies?
aeffects
wrote:
[...]
> One of your "snippets" reads "Officer J. W. Foster was standing on top
> of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw the
> bullet strike the turf."
>
> But oficer Foster NEVER said he saw any such thing.
>
> Why do you spread such lies?
I believe it's called a "cite", Todd. It's up to you, or one of the
Lone Nut minions hereabouts to prove the "cite" incorrect. No more,
Lone Nut BUT'S....or spreading lies, toots!
Show us your stuff, Todd or is the material locked away in that
phantom file cabinet you've told us so much about, eh? :)
[...]
Gil Jesus
BULLET STRIKE ON MANHOLE COVER
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L6s*D7XbC*Dcv4xQp5Fd3Ig=/large/
DALLAS MOTORCYCLE OFFICE EXAMINES IT
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L1b3DvYLHw*Xv4xQp5Fd3Ig=/large/
PLAINCLOTHES OFFICER PICKS IT UP...........
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L-Cf0VfJG5f-v4xQp5Fd3Ig=/large/
...........AND PUTS IT IN HIS POCKET
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1LxgExi9-lWjLv4xQp5Fd3Ig=/large/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
and here are the witnesses on video :
THE .45 SLUG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbvpCGQP3oo
DEPUTY SHERIFF PICKED UP A BULLET AT MANHOLE COVER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7MXX72_g28
MORE PICTURES AT:
http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/
MORE VIDEOS AT:
Gil Jesus
> Ben, here are the pictures:
>
> BULLET STRIKE ON MANHOLE COVER
>
>
> DALLAS MOTORCYCLE OFFICE EXAMINES IT
>
>
> PLAINCLOTHES OFFICER PICKS IT UP...........
>
>
> ...........AND PUTS IT IN HIS POCKET
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> and here are the witnesses on video :
>
> THE .45 SLUG
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbvpCGQP3oo
>
> DEPUTY SHERIFF PICKED UP A BULLET AT MANHOLE COVER
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7MXX72_g28
>
> MORE PICTURES AT:
>
> http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/
>
> MORE VIDEOS AT:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/GJJdude
When the photographs support the witnesses and the witnesses support
the photographs, there's nothing the LN side can do to respond but to
resort to childish name-calling and insults.
So get ready.
Ben Holmes
Todd W. Vaughan says...
>
>On Dec 29, 12:37=A0am, Ben Holmes <ad...@websitewealthcollege.com>
>wrote:
>> A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass h=
>as
>> been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation fo=
>und on
>> McAdams site, he does post the pictures. =A0(Sadly, he's not honest enough=
> to tell
>> you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actu=
>ally
>> was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores =
>the
>> earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
>> earliest ones):http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
>>
>nopsis
>> of some of the evidence for other bullets:
>
>
>
>
>One of your "snippets" reads "Officer J. W. Foster was standing on top
>of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw the
>bullet strike the turf."
>
>But oficer Foster NEVER said he saw any such thing.
>
>Why do you spread such lies?
Mr. BALL - Did you tell sergeant or Sawyer, either one where you thought the
shots came from?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you then tell them?
Mr. FOSTER - Told them it came from the vicinity up around Elm and Houston.
Mr. BALL - Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to Sawyer?
Mr. FOSTER - Told that to inspector Sawyer.
Mr. BALL - You told that to Sawyer?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you tell that to the sergeant?
Mr. FOSTER - I don't know whether I told the sergeant or not.
Mr. BALL - What did you do after that?
Mr. FOSTER - I moved to -down the roadway there, down to see if I could find
where any of he shots hit.
Mr. BALL - Find anything?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir. Found where one shot had hit the turf there at the
location.
Mr. BALL - Hit the turf?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any marks on the street in anyplace?
Mr. FOSTER - No, a manhole cover. It was hit. they caught the manhole cover
right on the corner and -
Mr. BALL - You saw a mark on the manhole cover did you?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes sir.
Mr. BALL - I show you a picture here of a concrete slab. or manhole cover. Do
you recognize that picture?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Does the picture show - tell me what it shows there.
Mr. FOSTER - This looks like the corner here where it penetrated the turf right
here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - See any mark on the manhole cover?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir; I don't. not on the - well, it is on the turf, on the
concrete, right in the corner.
Mr. BALL - Can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw that?
Mr. FOSTER - Should have been approximately along here[indicating].
Mr. BALL - Make it deep enough to mark. The arrow marks the position that you
believe you saw the mark on the pavement?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - It was not on the manhole cover?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Went into the turf?
Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you recover any bullet?
Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. It ricocheted on out.
>> ************************************************************************
>> As the limousine passed the front steps of the Texas School Book Depositor=
>y,
>> five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the lef=
>t
>> front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete in the=
>
>> direction of the car (Michael Griffith, "Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in=
>
>> Dealey Plaza"; Weisberg, Whitewash, 187-89).
>>
>> Royce Skelton was a railroad worker watching the motorcade from atop the t=
>riple
>> underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I guess it w=
>as a
>> bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the Presid=
>ent's
>> car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- away from=
> the
>> building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hit with =
>a hard
>> object, it will scatter -- it will spread" (6 H 238).
>>
>> Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis was riding a motorcycle about 100 feet in f=
>ront
>> of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned the
>> limousine and saw debris fly up, presumably from this same bullet strike (=
>John
>> S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw it; sh=
>e
>> believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple underpass (=
>7 H
>> 508-10).
>>
>> One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just south of=
> Elm
>> Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Foster was
>> standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he s=
>aw
>> the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was instru=
>cted
>> to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystanders were=
> kept
>> away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, although, ag=
>ain,
>> it would have to have been a truly terrible shot.
>>
>> Wayne and Edna Hartman were near Dealey Plaza when the shots rang out. The=
>y ran
>> through the Plaza and encountered a policeman on the grassy knoll. Edna Ha=
>rtman
>> later recalled to Jim Marrs, "He pointed to some bushes near the railroad =
>tracks
>> on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from.=
> . . .
>> Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mou=
>nds
>> made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the policeman s=
>aid,
>> 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs, Crossf=
>ire,
>> 315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men i=
>n
>> plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for=
> a
>> bullet" (19 H 467-68).
>>
>> Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of pictures=
>
>> showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes) and
>> watching a blond-haired man he believed to be an FBI agent point at the du=
>g-out
>> spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something up from=
> the
>> turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry said the m=
>an was
>> FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI Special =
>Agent
>> Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Murray al=
>so
>> photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been
>> cleared; this photograph ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star-Telegr=
>am,
>> captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Ke=
>nnedy
>> lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reporte=
>d in
>> reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the cr=
>ime
>> lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot w=
>here
>> one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
>>
>> Richard Randolph Carr . . . heard four shots fired, the last three of whic=
>h he
>> believed came from behind the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. H=
>e saw
>> a bullet strike the turf opposite the knoll where it "knocked a bunch of g=
>rass
>> up." Judging from the mark on the grass, Carr said the bullet had been
>> traveling in a southeast direction from the knoll toward the Criminal Cour=
>ts
>> building at Elm and Houston (Shaw trial transcript; HSCA volumes; Craig).
>>
>> Richard Dudman wrote in the December 21, 1963, New Republic: "On the say t=
>he
>> President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A gro=
>up of
>> police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where th=
>e
>> President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found anot=
>her
>> bullet in the grass."
>>
>> The Warren Commission took Buddy Walthers' word that it wasn't a bullet or=
>
>> bullet fragment.
>>
>> There was another bullet strike only about three to five feet from this on=
>e,
>> but it wasn't noticed right away. Dealey Plaza witness John Martin discove=
>red
>> it two and a half hours after the shooting, and quickly informed a policem=
>an,
>> "you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that =
>will
>> show you where the bullet came from" (Griffith; Trask, 573). The mark very=
>
>> clearly does not point back to the Texas School Book Depository; it appear=
>s to
>> have struck from the direction of the County Records Building, where a 30.=
>06
>> bullet shell was found later (Griffith; Trask, 573).
>>
>> Jim Murray took a number of photographs of police officers examining the s=
>pot,
>> including identifications officer Lt. Carl Day, who spent some time at thi=
>s
>> spot with his crime lab kit (Trask). Because of the close proximity of the=
>
>> strikes, it is possible that a bullet struck the manhole and bounced into =
>the
>> grass, but given the high visibility of the grass strike and the reasonabl=
>y
>> deep gouge in the turf, it's unlikely.
>>
>> Another bullet struck the sidewalk along the north side of Elm Street. It
>> apparently was first discovered a day or two later by Dallas resident Euge=
>ne
>> Aldredge -- a gash about four inches long and a quarter of an inch deep.
>> Aldredge didn't report it to anyone, assuming it had not gone unnoticed by=
> the
>> authorities. At least one photograph of it was taken; it is pictured on se=
>veral
>> books, including Groden's The Killing of the President, 40. After the Warr=
>en
>> Report came out, Aldredge was shocked not to see the missed bullet mention=
>ed and
>> notified the FBI (Weisberg, Never Again, 383-390). The FBI located it and =
>wrote
>> up a report describing it as approximately four inches long, a half inch w=
>ide,
>> and a "dug out" appearance. Dallas Morning News reporter Carl Freund also
>> identified the mark as a bullet strike. Groden notes that the gash lines u=
>p with
>> the southwest sixth floor TSBD window; Harrison Livingstone notes it also =
>lines
>> up with the south storm drain by the triple underpass (Griffith; Livingsto=
>ne,
>> High Treason 2).
>>
>> There are numerous reports of other missed shots; some bullets have even b=
>een
>> found in Dealey Plaza, literally years after the assassination. In 1975, a=
>
>> maintenance man named Morgan found a 30.06 shell on the roof of the County=
>
>> Records Building, which is about half a block south of the Book Depository=
>. The
>> casing has an odd crimp in its neck, suggesting it may have been fired fro=
>m a
>> sabot, a device used to fire a smaller caliber bullet out of a large calib=
>er
>> weapon. This is useful for criminals, as the caliber, type, and brand of t=
>he
>> recovered bullet cannot be linked with their gun (Marrs, Crossfire, 317). =
>The
>> shell had been hidden underneath a lip of roofing tar, and was greatly
>> deteriorated from exposure to moisture; it had obviously been there a whil=
>e.
>>
>> A fired but intact bullet was found on the top of the Massey Roofing Co.
>> building on Elm Street, about eight blocks from the TSBD, by Richard Hayth=
>orne
>> in 1967. No official study was made until the HSCA pronounced it a jackete=
>d,
>> soft-point .30 caliber bullet consistent with Remington-Peters ammunition;=
> it
>> had not been fired from the 6.5 caliber Mannlicher-Carcano (7 HSCA 357; Ca=
>rol
>> Hewett, "Silencers, Sniper Rifles & the CIA"; Craig).
>>
>> In 1974, Dallas resident Richard Lester swept Dealey Plaza with a metal
>> detector, and discovered a fragment -- the base portion of a bullet -- 500=
>
>> yards southwest of the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple underpass. Lat=
>er he
>> turned it over to the FBI, and it was studied by the House Select Committe=
>e on
>> Assassinations in 1978. They found that the fragment was from a 6.5 mm bul=
>let,
>> but that it had not been fired from the alleged "Oswald" Mannlicher-Carcan=
>o: its
>> rifling pattern was different (Associated Press, January 5, 1978; 7 HSCA 3=
>95;
>> Hewett). A whole, unfired .45 caliber bullet was found in 1976 by Hal Lust=
>er by
>> the concrete retaining wall on the knoll (Dallas Morning News,
>> December 23, 1978).
>>
>> In the summer of 1966, an intact bullet was found lodged in the roof of a
>> building at 1615 Stemmons Freeway by William Barbee. The building was abou=
>t a
>> quarter mile away from the Texas School Book Depository -- within rifle ra=
>nge
>> -- in the direction that Oswald had allegedly fired. The FBI identified th=
>e
>> bullet as a .30 caliber full metal jacketed military bullet; its rifling
>> pattern of four grooves, right hand twist is consistent with ammunition of=
> US
>> manufacture. This is the type of bullet the CIA used with their silenced M=
>-1
>> .30 caliber carbine rifles; civilians were not allowed to purchase them un=
>til
>> the middle of 1963, and full metal jacketed bullets are illegal for use in=
>
>> hunting (Hewett, citing FBI Doc. #62-109060-5898).
>>
>> Two spent Remington .222 bullet casings were found in Dealey Plaza by John=
>
>> Rademacher, about eighty feet apart, one on each end of the concrete pergo=
>la
>> that stands midway between the Texas School Book Depository and the triple=
>
>> underpass. One was just to the east, while the other was just west of it,
>> between the pergola and the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. One=
> of
>> the casings has strange indentations which appear to be teeth marks on it.=
>
>>
>> Carol Hewett also notes, "The HSCA makes passing reference to the 'Walder'=
>
>> bullet that was also submitted for testing; the author could find no other=
>
>> mention of this particular item of evidence" (citing 7 HSCA 157). Hewett a=
>lso
>> references "the report from a top FBI administrator, Alan Belmont, to Clyd=
>e
>> Tolson, Hoover's second in command, in which Belmont on the night of Novem=
>ber
>> 22nd advises that a bullet has been found lodged behind the President's ea=
>r"
>> (citing FBI Doc. #62-109060-1431), consistent with the Sibert-O'Neill evid=
>ence
>> envelope that was supposed to contain a "missile," not a fragment or fragm=
>ents.
>>
>> Is there any evidence that there were once more bullets or fragments than =
>are
>> now in the record?
>>
>> In Arlen Specter's published questioning of the autopsy pathologists, he m=
>akes
>> repeated references to a file originally designated CD 371, then renamed a=
>s it
>> was entered into evidence. Specter introduces Commission Exhibit 397, stat=
>ing
>> it is the identical file previously marked CD 371 "for our internal purpos=
>es"
>> (2 H 323). Researcher Harold Weisberg was the first person to notice that =
>CE
>> 397 seemed to be missing several items, so he went to the National Archive=
>s to
>> inspect the CD 371. He found some interesting differences between the
>> 'identical' files (Weisberg, Post Mortem, 251). One notable document is a =
>list
>> of eleven items written by Secret Service officer Robert I . Bouck, head o=
>f the
>> Protective Research Section, on Treasury Department letterhead, dated Nove=
>mber
>> 26, 1963. It acknowledges receipt of eleven items from Admiral George G.
>> Burkley, who had been John F. Kennedy's personal physician, and who took
>> possession (not necessarily in a legal manner) of a number of the autopsy
>> records. The seventh item on the list reads, "One receipt from FBI for a
>> missile recovered during the examination of the body."
>>
>> A missile is a bullet. It is not a bullet fragment; a fragment is a piece =
>of a
>> ruptured missile. Numerous minute fragments were recovered from the Presid=
>ent's
>> body during the autopsy. Not a single receipt for a fragment or fragments =
>is
>> listed on this document; they were transferred separately. This is a recei=
>pt for
>> an intact bullet recovered from John F. Kennedy's body; it appeared in pri=
>nt for
>> the first time in Weisberg's 1975 book, Post Mortem, 527.
>>
>> Researcher Anna-Marie Kuhns-Walko turned up some interesting items at the
>> National Archives in 1996: photographs (several) labeled as being of a bul=
>let
>> "removed from President Kennedy's body." It is not one of the tiny fragmen=
>ts
>> that have been part of the record for thirty-five years. No other informat=
>ion
>> is available: no photographer listed; no indication of when it was recover=
>ed;
>> or what part of the body it came from; or if it was recovered at Parkland,=
>
>> Bethesda, or elsewhere. Just several photos of a bullet "removed from Pres=
>ident
>> Kennedy's body" that no one's ever seen before.
>>
>> Anna-Marie also discovered an empty envelope, originally marked, "Shell 7.=
>5
>> found in Dealey Plaza 11/22/63. This would be an expended cartridge found
>> somewhere in Dealey Plaza, presumably not far from where it was fired; and=
>
>> regardless of where in Dealey Plaza it was found (which the envelope doesn=
>'t
>> state), it's a 7.5 caliber, not a 6.5 caliber like the Mannlicher-Carcano.=
> No
>> one outside a very select circle, apparently, ever heard of this item befo=
>re.
>> Why is the envelope empty? Written right after the previously quoted
>> description: "DETERMINED OF NO VALUE AND DESTROYED."
>>
>> *********************************************************************
>>
>> The above post was snipped to the relevant paragraphs dealing with evidenc=
>e for
>> more than 3 bullets. =A0I invite everyone to Google and read the original =
>if
>> interested. =A0There's more material in the original - and I snipped out s=
>ome good
>> stuff that simply wasn't relevant to this post.
>>
>> Clearly *some* of the snippets above could easily be referring to the *sam=
>e*
>> bullet - simply at different perspective by different eyewitnesses. =A0And=
> some of
>> the snippets above could easily have had *no* relevance to 11/22/63. =A0Bu=
>t the WC
>> ignored and ran from such evidence with a determination that can only lead=
>
>> thoughtful people to the conclusion that they had already made up their mi=
>nds.
>>
>> The point I might make here is... where did the WC deal with all of this
>> evidence? =A0Can anyone point to *ANY* attempt by the WC to explain away t=
>his
>> massive amount of evidence for more than three bullets? =A0Examine the evi=
>dence at
>> all? =A0Ask the FBI for clarification?
>
Ben Holmes
Gil Jesus says...
Thanks Gil! Good corroboration ...
It doesn't take a genius to realize that there were multiple shooters that day.
tomnln
"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:eece6a0b-3e16-4196...@f53g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
So get ready.
RETALIATION to that Name-Calling, is when it gets to be FUN.
muc...@gmail.com
> "Gil Jesus" <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote in message
It seems strange to me that you'd get such enjoyment out of calling
other people child molesters, cunts, AIDS patients, etc.
Gil Jesus
> Gil implies that one of the multiple shooters was John Connally.
>
> Why don't you see if Gil can get you some "good corroboration" for
> that gem?-
SOMEBODY'S ANGRY !!!
Don't try to change the subject, Chuckles. The subject is evidence for
other bullets in Dealey Plaza. If you can't contribute to the subject
with citations, then sit in the corner and cry.
Your attempts at insults are like you, irrelevent.
justm...@gmail.com
Jesus thinks that if he start talking like Holmes people will listen
to him, WRONG!!!!!
muc...@gmail.com
Sic; did you mean irreverent?
Walt
> In article <60073c27-a77c-4a7c-aeca-5da449a9e...@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
I wish I had a way to post a photo that corroborates Foster's
testimony, because I the old saw goes...."A picture is worth a
thousand words." On page 497 Of Trask's POP there is a photo of
officer Foster pointing back toward the source of the shot that struck
the turf...He is pointing directly at the WIDE OPEN window on the WEST
end of the sixth floor of the TSBD. Also See pages 68-70, in TKOAP
Walt
Walt
> In article <b6207a33-8501-43dc-b270-77930ff6c...@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com>,
> Gil Jesus says...
Gil, Can you post a link to the photo of Officer Foster pointing to
the west end windo that is printed on page 497 of Trask's Pictures of
the Pain.
Thanks
Walt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Ben, here are the pictures:
>
> >BULLET STRIKE ON MANHOLE COVER
>
> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L6s...
>
> >DALLAS MOTORCYCLE OFFICE EXAMINES IT
>
> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L1b...
>
> >PLAINCLOTHES OFFICER PICKS IT UP...........
>
> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L-C...
>
> >...........AND PUTS IT IN HIS POCKET
>
> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1Lxg...
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >and here are the witnesses on video :
>
> >THE .45 SLUG
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbvpCGQP3oo
>
> >DEPUTY SHERIFF PICKED UP A BULLET AT MANHOLE COVER
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7MXX72_g28
>
> >MORE PICTURES AT:
>
> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/
>
> >MORE VIDEOS AT:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/GJJdude
>
> Thanks Gil! ย Good corroboration ...
>
> It doesn't take a genius to realize that there were multiple shooters that day.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Walt
> "Gil Jesus" <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote in message
RETALIATION to that Name-Calling, is when it gets to be FUN.
No it's not "fun" Tom.... It's childish, and it uses up a lot of
space. Don't get down in the gutter with them
Walt
Walt
Now THAT'S the way to respond to the crybabies.....
tomnln
It seems strange to me that you'd get such enjoyment out of calling
other people child molesters, cunts, AIDS patients, etc.
tomnln
"Chuck Schuyler" <chu...@am-mtg.com> wrote in message
news:77ee2cbb-821a-49a8...@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com...> <b6207a33-8501-43dc-b270-77930ff6c...@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.com>,
> Gil Jesus says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Ben, here are the pictures:
>
> >BULLET STRIKE ON MANHOLE COVER
>
>
> >DALLAS MOTORCYCLE OFFICE EXAMINES IT
>
>
> >PLAINCLOTHES OFFICER PICKS IT UP...........
>
>
> >...........AND PUTS IT IN HIS POCKET
>
> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >and here are the witnesses on video :
>
> >THE .45 SLUG
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbvpCGQP3oo
>
> >DEPUTY SHERIFF PICKED UP A BULLET AT MANHOLE COVER
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7MXX72_g28
>
> >MORE PICTURES AT:
>
> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/
>
> >MORE VIDEOS AT:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/GJJdude
>
> Thanks Gil! Good corroboration ...
>
> It doesn't take a genius to realize that there were multiple shooters that
>
Gil implies that one of the multiple shooters was John Connally.
Why don't you see if Gil can get you some "good corroboration" for
that gem?
Chuck STILL Runs from his own evidence/testimony>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/PROVEN%20LIES.htm
http://whokilledjfk.net/CASE%20DISMISSED.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
Ben Holmes
Walt says...
Say no more... http://www.websitewealthcollege.com/JFK/foster.html
Ben Holmes
Walt says...>> In article <b6207a33-8501-43dc-b270-77930ff6c...@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.=
>com>,
>> Gil Jesus says...
>
>Gil, Can you post a link to the photo of Officer Foster pointing to
>the west end windo that is printed on page 497 of Trask's Pictures of
>the Pain.
>
>Thanks
>
>Walt
Gil does videos... I'll fill in on photos... here you go:
http://www.websitewealthcollege.com/JFK/foster.html
>> >Ben, here are the pictures:
>>
>> >BULLET STRIKE ON MANHOLE COVER
>>
>> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L6s...
>>
>> >DALLAS MOTORCYCLE OFFICE EXAMINES IT
>>
>> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L1b...
>>
>> >PLAINCLOTHES OFFICER PICKS IT UP...........
>>
>> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L-C...
>>
>> >...........AND PUTS IT IN HIS POCKET
>>
>> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1Lxg...
>> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> >and here are the witnesses on video :
>>
>> >THE .45 SLUG
>>
>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DzbvpCGQP3oo
>>
>> >DEPUTY SHERIFF PICKED UP A BULLET AT MANHOLE COVER
>>
>> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DN7MXX72_g28
>>
>> >MORE PICTURES AT:
>>
>> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/
>>
>> >MORE VIDEOS AT:
>>
>> >http://www.youtube.com/GJJdude
>>
>> Thanks Gil! =A0Good corroboration ...
>>
>> It doesn't take a genius to realize that there were multiple shooters that=
Walt
> In article <ae160114-332d-4138-940a-97b599e91...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> Walt says...
>
>
>
> >On 29 Dec, 09:34, Ben Holmes <ad...@websitewealthcollege.com> wrote:
> >> In article <b6207a33-8501-43dc-b270-77930ff6c...@j20g2000hsi.googlegroups.=
> >com>,
> >> Gil Jesus says...
>
> >Gil, Can you post a link to the photo of Officer Foster pointing to
> >the west end windo that is printed on page 497 of Trask's Pictures of
> >the Pain.
>
> >Thanks
>
> >Walt
>
> Gil does videos... I'll fill in on photos... here you go:
Thanks Ben..... Did you notice the Cuban dressed in the Khaki
uniform? Why would the cops allow a "Taxi Driver" to pick up
evidence ?? There are several men dressed like this guy who can be
seen in the photos taken in Dealey Plaza right after the murder.
Notice that he's dressed very much like the man that Brennan saw in
the sixth floor window.
Walt
>
> http://www.websitewealthcollege.com/JFK/foster.html
>
>
>
> >> >Ben, here are the pictures:
>
> >> >BULLET STRIKE ON MANHOLE COVER
>
> >> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L6s...
>
> >> >DALLAS MOTORCYCLE OFFICE EXAMINES IT
>
> >> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L1b...
>
> >> >PLAINCLOTHES OFFICER PICKS IT UP...........
>
> >> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1L-C...
>
> >> >...........AND PUTS IT IN HIS POCKET
>
> >> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/41602cXrkH0*ic1Lb0imwIK1Lxg...
> >> >---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >> >and here are the witnesses on video :
>
> >> >THE .45 SLUG
>
> >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DzbvpCGQP3oo
>
> >> >DEPUTY SHERIFF PICKED UP A BULLET AT MANHOLE COVER
>
> >> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DN7MXX72_g28
>
> >> >MORE PICTURES AT:
>
> >> >http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/gjjmail/
>
> >> >MORE VIDEOS AT:
>
> >> >http://www.youtube.com/GJJdude
>
> >> Thanks Gil! =A0Good corroboration ...
>
> >> It doesn't take a genius to realize that there were multiple shooters that=
> > day.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Gil Jesus
> In article <ae160114-332d-4138-940a-97b599e91...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
Great photo shots Ben. Thanks. I was going to post the photo Walt
requested but I like yours better. Great job !!!
Walt
> On Dec 29, 12:37ย am, Ben Holmes <ad...@websitewealthcollege.com>
> wrote:
>
> > A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass has
> > been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation found on
> > McAdams site, he does post the pictures. ย (Sadly, he's not honest enough to tell
> > you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actually
> > was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores the
> > earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
> > earliest ones):http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
>
> > These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a good synopsis
> > of some of the evidence for other bullets:
>
> One of your "snippets" reads "Officer J. W. Foster was standing on top
> of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw the
> bullet strike the turf."
>
> But oficer Foster NEVER said he saw any such thing.
>
> Why do you spread such lies?
Hey Toad, What you really mean is;.... Why do you post irrefutable
evidence??
There were others that saw the bullet(s) hit in the turf on the south
side of Elm street. Jean Hill said the officers who questioned her
asked her if she didn't see the bullet strike near her. ... And One of
the steam fitters that was working with Howard Brennan said he saw a
man shot on either the ankle or foof on the south side of Elm street.
That man that was hit in the foot can be seen falling to the ground at
about Frame 320 /330 of the Z film.
Walt
Todd W. Vaughan
wrote:
> In article <60073c27-a77c-4a7c-aeca-5da449a9e...@b40g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Ben,
You must think this is amateur hour.
And for you and most of the rest of the brain dead dolts who I see
have now posted in this thread without engaging their brains it is.
Unlike you and them I'm very familiar with officer Foster's Warren
Commission testimony. In fact I studied it in great detail for years
before I was finally able to track Foster down and interview him way
back in the summer of 1985, some 23 years ago.
Let's review the facts as they developed here, shall we?
FACT: At the top of this thread you posted a "snippet" of a post by
Dave Reitz from 1998 that claimed as fact that "Officer J. W. Foster
was standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of
Elm; he saw the bullet strike the turf."
FACT: You characterized Reitz's post as a "good synopsis of some of
the evidence for other bullets"
FACT: I replied with, "...oficer (sic) Foster NEVER said he saw any
such thing."
FACT: You replied by cutting, pasting, and posting a portion of
Officer Foster's Warren Commission testimony.
FACT: Officer Foster's Warren Commission testimony in no way supports
Reitz's, and now your, claim that Officer Foster "saw the bullet
strike the turf.". Oh, it makes it clear that after the shooting
Officer Foster was looking around for a spot where a bullet might have
hit, and did in fact find a spot that he thought might have been where
a bullet hit, but nowhere did he testify to actually seeing a bullet
strike the turf.
So in the end not only are we are still left with your lie that
Officer Foster "saw the bullet strike the turf.", we now we have the
added twist that you tried to support your lie with a passage of
testimony that in fact refuted your lie.
Todd
> >p- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more ยป
martyb...@gmail.com
> A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass has
> been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation found on
> you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actually
> was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores the
> earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
> earliest ones):http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
>
> of some of the evidence for other bullets:
>
> ************************************************************************
> As the limousine passed the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository,
> five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the left
> front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete in the
>
> underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a
> bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the President's
> car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- away from the
> building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard
> object, it will scatter -- it will spread" (6 H 238).
>
> of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned the
> S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw it; she
> believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple underpass (7 H
> 508-10).
>
> One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just south of Elm
> Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Foster was
> the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was instructed
> to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystanders were kept
> away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, although, again,
> it would have to have been a truly terrible shot.
>
> through the Plaza and encountered a policeman on the grassy knoll. Edna Hartman
> later recalled to Jim Marrs, "He pointed to some bushes near the railroad tracks
> on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from. . . .
> Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mounds
> made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the policeman said,
> 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs, Crossfire,
> 315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men in
> plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a
> bullet" (19 H 467-68).
>
> Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of pictures
> spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something up from the
> turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry said the man was
> FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI Special Agent
> Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Murray also
> photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been
> captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy
> lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reported in
> reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime
> lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where
> one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
>
> believed came from behind the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. He saw
> a bullet strike the turf opposite the knoll where it "knocked a bunch of grass
> up." Judging from the mark on the grass, Carr said the bullet had been
> building at Elm and Houston (Shaw trial transcript; HSCA volumes; Craig).
>
> President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of
> police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the
> President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another
> bullet in the grass."
>
> The Warren Commission took Buddy Walthers' word that it wasn't a bullet or
>
> There was another bullet strike only about three to five feet from this one,
> but it wasn't noticed right away. Dealey Plaza witness John Martin discovered
> it two and a half hours after the shooting, and quickly informed a policeman,
> "you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that will
> show you where the bullet came from" (Griffith; Trask, 573). The mark very
> have struck from the direction of the County Records Building, where a 30.06
> bullet shell was found later (Griffith; Trask, 573).
>
> including identifications officer Lt. Carl Day, who spent some time at this
> spot with his crime lab kit (Trask). Because of the close proximity of the
> grass, but given the high visibility of the grass strike and the reasonably
> deep gouge in the turf, it's unlikely.
>
> Another bullet struck the sidewalk along the north side of Elm Street. It
> Aldredge -- a gash about four inches long and a quarter of an inch deep.
> authorities. At least one photograph of it was taken; it is pictured on several
> books, including Groden's The Killing of the President, 40. After the Warren
> Report came out, Aldredge was shocked not to see the missed bullet mentioned and
> notified the FBI (Weisberg, Never Again, 383-390). The FBI located it and wrote
> up a report describing it as approximately four inches long, a half inch wide,
> and a "dug out" appearance. Dallas Morning News reporter Carl Freund also
>
> read more ยป
Thanks Ben. Some great info and some good follow along pictures from
others.
Marty
Todd W. Vaughan
Tortoise,
Here's "my stuff".
1. Ben is the one who used the word "snippet", in his entence "These
following snippets came from a post...", hence my use of the quotation
marks. Try and catch up.
2. Ben's "snippet" claims that officer Foster "saw the bullet strike
the turf." But when one check's officer Foster's Warren Commission
testimony, uh-oh, it turns out that Officer Foster said no such thing.
Boo-Hoo for Ben! Try and stay caught up.
3. So it looks like it's Ben who's the one spreading lies, David, and
it looks like it's you, "toots", as the one riding his coattails and
supporting his lies.
Enjoy.
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
The fact, Walt, is that Ben's post claims that Officer Foster "saw the
bullet strike the turf", yet the record shows that Officer Foster
NEVER said any such thing.
These are the kind of "facts" you like Walt?
> > >> Another bullet- Hide quoted text -
Walt
> On 29 Dec, 01:22, "Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaughan2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Dec 29, 12:37ย am, Ben Holmes <ad...@websitewealthcollege.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass has
> > > been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation found on
> > > McAdams site, he does post the pictures. ย (Sadly, he's not honest enough to tell
> > > you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actually
> > > was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores the
> > > earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
> > > earliest ones):http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
>
> > > These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a good synopsis
> > > of some of the evidence for other bullets:
>
> > One of your "snippets" reads "Officer J. W. Foster was standing on top
> > of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw the
> > bullet strike the turf."
>
> > But oficer Foster NEVER said he saw any such thing.
>
> > Why do you spread such lies?
>
Hey Toad, ย What you really mean is;.... Why do you post irrefutable
evidence??
There were others that saw the bullet(s) hit in the turf on the south
side of Elm street. Jean Hill said the officers who questioned her
asked her if she didn't see the bullet strike near her. ... And One of
the steam fitters ( A J Millican) that was working with Howard
Brennan said he saw a man shot on either the ankle or foof on the
south side of Elm street.
That man that was hit in the foot can be seen falling to the ground
at about Frame 320 /330 of the Z film.
Works for Sam P. Wallace and Claude Beard Plumbing Company
Fabricating pipe for the Republic Bank Building at the end of the Katy
Railroad yards and the west end of Pacific Street
I was standing on the North side of Elm Street, about half way
between Houston and the Underpass. About five or ten minutes before
the President came by I observed a truck from Honest Joe's Pawn Shop,
and parked by the Book
Depository Store. Then drove off about five or ten minutes before the
Presiden't car came by. Just after the President's car passed, I heard
three shots come from up toward Houston and Elm right by the Book
Depository Building, and then immediately I heard two more shots from
the Arcade between the Book Store and the Underpass, and then three
more shots came from the same direction only sounded further back. It
sounded approximately like a 45 automatic, or a high powered rifle.
Then everybody started running up the hill. A man standing on the
South side of Elm Street, was either hit in the foot, or the ankle and
fell down. And then I went back to work.
/s/ A.J. Millican
> ...
>
> read more ยป- Hide quoted text -
aeffects
facts being what they are, you're losing it...
> And for you and most of the rest of the brain dead dolts who I see
> have now posted in this thread without engaging their brains it is.
>
> Unlike you and them I'm very familiar with officer Foster's Warren
> Commission testimony. In fact I studied it in great detail for years
> before I was finally able to track Foster down and interview him way
> back in the summer of 1985, some 23 years ago.
so what?
> Let's review the facts as they developed here, shall we?
>
> FACT: At the top of this thread you posted a "snippet" of a post by
> Dave Reitz from 1998 that claimed as fact that "Officer J. W. Foster
> was standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of
> Elm; he saw the bullet strike the turf."
>
> FACT: You characterized Reitz's post as a "good synopsis of some of
> the evidence for other bullets"
>
> FACT: I replied with, "...oficer (sic) Foster NEVER said he saw any
> such thing."
>
> FACT: You replied by cutting, pasting, and posting a portion of
> Officer Foster's Warren Commission testimony.
>
> FACT: Officer Foster's Warren Commission testimony in no way supports
> Reitz's, and now your, claim that Officer Foster "saw the bullet
> strike the turf.". Oh, it makes it clear that after the shooting
> Officer Foster was looking around for a spot where a bullet might have
> hit, and did in fact find a spot that he thought might have been where
> a bullet hit, but nowhere did he testify to actually seeing a bullet
> strike the turf.
>
> So in the end not only are we are still left with your lie that
> Officer Foster "saw the bullet strike the turf.", we now we have the
> added twist that you tried to support your lie with a passage of
> testimony that in fact refuted your lie.
perhaps, you can dig some *cites* out of that mysterious-disappearing
file cabinet you have.... you studied this that and all the rest, Dave
Reitzes (aka David Von Pein) said this, that.... nonsense..... you're
perpetuating the big lie, no one here is impressed...
> ...
>
> read more ยป
aeffects
and the beat goes on......
> Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
You get ousted as the coattail-schmuck rider that you are, supporting
a lie, and the best you can do is "and the beat goes on"?
You're morally bankrupt, Healy, and intellectually inept.
>
>
>
> > Todd- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Get over the pettiness, Jerk .... Ben may not be precisely correct
in saying that Foster saw the bullet strike the turf, but you don't
know that he didn't actually see it, he may or may not have seen it
strike.....What's important ( and what you don't want others to see )
is the FACT that a bullet DID in fact strike there at the SW corner of
that sewer cover. Where Foster actually saw it or if someone lead him
to it is not important....(And you well know it) What's important is
the photos showing the police examining that area. Do you think they
posted a guard at that point because someone peed their pants there
during the shooting??
> ...
>
> read more ยป- Hide quoted text -
Todd W. Vaughan
Ah, that's it David, don't bother to actually READ officer Foster's
sworn WC testimony, you know, the same testimony that Ben posted in a
fraudulent attempt to support his bogus claim.
No, don't man up for once with the guts to address the lie, Ben's lie,
and your support of it. Instead ignore it, it'll go away, just like
any shred of decency you were ever taught in your pathetic existence
has.
> > > >> believed came from behind the wooden stockade- Hide quoted text -
Ben Holmes
martyb...@gmail.com says...
>
>On Dec 28, 9:37=A0pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@websitewealthcollege.com> wrote:
>> A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass h=
>as
>> been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation fo=
>und on
>> McAdams site, he does post the pictures. =A0(Sadly, he's not honest enough=
>> you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actu=
>ally
>> was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores =
>the
>> earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
>> earliest ones):http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
>>
>nopsis
>> of some of the evidence for other bullets:
>>
>> ************************************************************************
>y,
>> five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the lef=
>t
>> front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete in the=
>
>> direction of the car (Michael Griffith, "Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in=
>
>> Dealey Plaza"; Weisberg, Whitewash, 187-89).
>>
>riple
>> underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I guess it w=
>as a
>> bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the Presid=
>ent's
>> car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- away from=
> the
>> building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hit with =
>a hard
>> object, it will scatter -- it will spread" (6 H 238).
>>
>ront
>> of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned the
>John
>> S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw it; sh=
>e
>> believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple underpass (=
>7 H
>> 508-10).
>>
>> One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just south of=
> Elm
>> Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Foster was
>aw
>> the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was instru=
>cted
>> to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystanders were=
> kept
>> away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, although, ag=
>ain,
>> it would have to have been a truly terrible shot.
>>
>y ran
>> through the Plaza and encountered a policeman on the grassy knoll. Edna Ha=
>rtman
>> later recalled to Jim Marrs, "He pointed to some bushes near the railroad =
>tracks
>> on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from.=
> . . .
>> Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mou=
>nds
>> made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the policeman s=
>aid,
>> 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs, Crossf=
>ire,
>> 315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men i=
>n
>> plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for=
> a
>> bullet" (19 H 467-68).
>>
>
>> showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes) and
>g-out
>> spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something up from=
> the
>> turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry said the m=
>an was
>> FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI Special =
>Agent
>> Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Murray al=
>so
>> photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been
>am,
>> captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Ke=
>nnedy
>> lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reporte=
>d in
>> reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the cr=
>ime
>> lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot w=
>here
>> one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
>>
>h he
>> believed came from behind the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. H=
>e saw
>> a bullet strike the turf opposite the knoll where it "knocked a bunch of g=
>rass
>> up." Judging from the mark on the grass, Carr said the bullet had been
>ts
>> building at Elm and Houston (Shaw trial transcript; HSCA volumes; Craig).
>>
>he
>> President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A gro=
>up of
>> police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where th=
>e
>> President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found anot=
>her
>> bullet in the grass."
>>
>
>> bullet fragment.
>>
>> There was another bullet strike only about three to five feet from this on=
>e,
>> but it wasn't noticed right away. Dealey Plaza witness John Martin discove=
>red
>> it two and a half hours after the shooting, and quickly informed a policem=
>an,
>> "you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that =
>will
>> show you where the bullet came from" (Griffith; Trask, 573). The mark very=
>
>> clearly does not point back to the Texas School Book Depository; it appear=
>s to
>> have struck from the direction of the County Records Building, where a 30.=
>06
>> bullet shell was found later (Griffith; Trask, 573).
>>
>pot,
>> including identifications officer Lt. Carl Day, who spent some time at thi=
>s
>> spot with his crime lab kit (Trask). Because of the close proximity of the=
>
>> strikes, it is possible that a bullet struck the manhole and bounced into =
>the
>> grass, but given the high visibility of the grass strike and the reasonabl=
>y
>> deep gouge in the turf, it's unlikely.
>>
>> Another bullet struck the sidewalk along the north side of Elm Street. It
>ne
>> Aldredge -- a gash about four inches long and a quarter of an inch deep.
> the
>> authorities. At least one photograph of it was taken; it is pictured on se=
>veral
>> books, including Groden's The Killing of the President, 40. After the Warr=
>en
>> Report came out, Aldredge was shocked not to see the missed bullet mention=
>ed and
>> notified the FBI (Weisberg, Never Again, 383-390). The FBI located it and =
>wrote
>> up a report describing it as approximately four inches long, a half inch w=
>ide,
>> and a "dug out" appearance. Dallas Morning News reporter Carl Freund also
>p with
>> the southwest sixth floor TSBD window; Harrison Livingstone notes it also =
>lines
>> up with the south storm drain by the triple underpass (Griffith; Livingsto=
>ne,
>> High Treason 2).
>>
>> There are numerous reports of other missed shots; some bullets have even b=
>een
>> found in Dealey Plaza, literally years after the assassination. In 1975, a=
>
>> maintenance man named Morgan found a 30.06 shell on the roof of the County=
>
>> Records Building, which is about half a block south of the Book Depository=
>. The
>> casing has an odd crimp in its neck, suggesting it may have been fired fro=
>m a
>> sabot, a device used to fire a smaller caliber bullet out of a large calib=
>er
>> weapon. This is useful for criminals, as the caliber, type, and brand of t=
>he
>> recovered bullet cannot be linked with their gun (Marrs, Crossfire, 317). =
>The
>> shell had been hidden underneath a lip of roofing tar, and was greatly
>e.
>>
>> A fired but intact bullet was found on the top of the Massey Roofing Co.
>orne
>> in 1967. No official study was made until the HSCA pronounced it a jackete=
>d,
>> soft-point .30 caliber bullet consistent with Remington-Peters ammunition;=
> it
>> had not been fired from the 6.5 caliber Mannlicher-Carcano (7 HSCA 357; Ca=
>rol
>> Hewett, "Silencers, Sniper Rifles & the CIA"; Craig).
>>
>> In 1974, Dallas resident Richard Lester swept Dealey Plaza with a metal
>
>> yards southwest of the TSBD and 61 paces east of the triple underpass. Lat=
>er he
>> turned it over to the FBI, and it was studied by the House Select Committe=
>e on
>> Assassinations in 1978. They found that the fragment was from a 6.5 mm bul=
>let,
>> but that it had not been fired from the alleged "Oswald" Mannlicher-Carcan=
>o: its
>> rifling pattern was different (Associated Press, January 5, 1978; 7 HSCA 3=
>95;
>> Hewett). A whole, unfired .45 caliber bullet was found in 1976 by Hal Lust=
>er by
>> the concrete retaining wall on the knoll (Dallas Morning News,
>> December 23, 1978).
>>
>> In the summer of 1966, an intact bullet was found lodged in the roof of a
>t a
>> quarter mile away from the Texas School Book Depository -- within rifle ra=
>nge
>> -- in the direction that Oswald had allegedly fired. The FBI identified th=
>e
>> bullet as a .30 caliber full metal jacketed military bullet; its rifling
> US
>> manufacture. This is the type of bullet the CIA used with their silenced M=
>-1
>> .30 caliber carbine rifles; civilians were not allowed to purchase them un=
>til
>> the middle of 1963, and full metal jacketed bullets are illegal for use in=
>
>> hunting (Hewett, citing FBI Doc. #62-109060-5898).
>>
>
>> Rademacher, about eighty feet ...
>>
>
>Thanks Ben. Some great info and some good follow along pictures from
>others.
>
>Marty
I've also posted just an hour ago, some relevant photos here:
http://www.websitewealthcollege.com/JFK/foster.html
Todd W. Vaughan
You know as well as I do, asshole, that if a LN'er made a claim as
demonstrably false as Ben's that Ben would be blowing his tiny little
wad all over it and stroking it for all it's worth.
>What's important ( and what you don't want others to see )
> is the FACT that a bullet DID in fact strike there at the SW corner of
> that sewer cover.
There is no evidence that a bullet struck the cement of the manhole
cement apron.
The mark that exists there today could not have been casued by a
bullet, it's way too deep and it's upper boundaries overhang it's
lower ones in a way that no bullet hitting concrete would ever do.
The DPD photos of the manhole taken that day, as well as those by the
FWST, show that no one even cleared or reflected the grass/sod
overgrowth of the very corner of the manhole cement apron to check.
>Where Foster actually saw it or if someone lead him
> to it is not important....(And you well know it)
What's important is to not claim a wintess saw something that he did
not.
Can you grasp that basic fact?
>What's important is
> the photos showing the police examining that area. ย Do you think they
> posted a guard at that point because someone peed their pants there
> during the shooting??
No, I think they thought a bullet have struck the turf there and they
wanted to preserve the area for evidence. A bullet may have hit there,
or a bullet fragment, but at present there is just no solid evidence
one way or the other. Other's who saw the mark (Cabluck, Murray,
Allen) were not persuaded that it was a bullet mark.
> > > > >> building at Elm and- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more ยป
Ben Holmes
Walt says...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 29 Dec, 09:31, Ben Holmes <ad...@websitewealthcollege.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > >wrote:
>> > > >> A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the =
>grass h=3D
>> > > >as
>> > > >> been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresenta=
>tion fo=3D
>> > > >und on
>> > > >> McAdams site, he does post the pictures. =3DA0(Sadly, he's not hone=
>st enough=3D
>> > > > to tell
>> > > >> you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byli=
>ne actu=3D
>> > > >ally
>> > > >> was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John i=
>gnores =3D
>> > > >the
>> > > >> earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradic=>> > > >> These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a =
>good sy=3D
>> > > >nopsis
>> > > >> of some of the evidence for other bullets:
>>
>p
>> > > >of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw the
>> > > >bullet strike the turf."
>>
>> > > >But oficer Foster NEVER said he saw any such thing.
>>
>> > > >Why do you spread such lies?
>>
>ht the
>> > > shots came from?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - What did you then tell them?
>ston.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that =
>to Sawyer?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Told that to inspector Sawyer.
>> > > Mr. BALL - You told that to Sawyer?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Did you tell that to the sergeant?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - I don't know whether I told the sergeant or not.
>> > > Mr. BALL - What did you do after that?
>d find
>> > > where any of he shots hit.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Find anything?
>the
>> > > location.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Hit the turf?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Did you see any marks on the street in anyplace?
>cover
>> > > right on the corner and -
>> > > Mr. BALL - You saw a mark on the manhole cover did you?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes sir.
>ver. Do
>> > > you recognize that picture?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Does the picture show - tell me what it shows there.
>urf right
>> > > here [indicating].
>> > > Mr. BALL - See any mark on the manhole cover?
>n the
>> > > concrete, right in the corner.
>that?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Should have been approximately along here[indicating].
>hat you
>> > > believe you saw the mark on the pavement?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - It was not on the manhole cover?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - No, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Went into the turf?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Did you recover any bullet?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - No, sir. It ricocheted on out.>>
>>
>> > Excellent post Ben.... The bastards can't HONESTLY refute the FACTS.
>>
>> The fact, Walt, is that Ben's post claims that Officer Foster "saw the
>> bullet strike the turf", yet the record shows that Officer Foster
>> NEVER said any such thing.
>>
>> These are the kind of "facts" you like Walt?
>
>Get over the pettiness, Jerk .... Ben may not be precisely correct
>in saying that Foster saw the bullet strike the turf,
Actually, and Toddy is well aware of this, I merely lifted the majority of a
post from someone else.
And no, I didn't proof it statement by statement - I knew simply by reading it
that what I knew of the evidence didn't contradict anything I was reading.
Toddy enjoys doing this... picking a small inconsistency out of a large mass of
evidence, and saying "Hey Look!!", as if it indicts the entire post.
So yes, I have no problem with a small inaccuracy being pointed out - indeed, I
quoted the testimony that proves that the snippet was not correct.
But Toddy knows quite well that Foster was an excellent eyewitness to a bullet
Toddy can't admit existed.
>but you don't
>know that he didn't actually see it, he may or may not have seen it
>strike.....What's important ( and what you don't want others to see )
>is the FACT that a bullet DID in fact strike there at the SW corner of
>that sewer cover. Where Foster actually saw it or if someone lead him
>to it is not important....(And you well know it) What's important is
>the photos showing the police examining that area. Do you think they
>posted a guard at that point because someone peed their pants there
>during the shooting??
Like all LNT'ers, Toddy can't explain the evidence in non-conspiratorial terms.
>> > I wish I had a way to post a photo that corroborates Foster's
>> > testimony, because I the old saw goes...."A picture is worth a
>> > thousand words." On page 497 Of Trask's POP there is a photo of
>> > officer Foster pointing back toward the source of the shot that struck
>> > the turf...He is pointing directly at the WIDE OPEN window on the WEST
>> > end of the sixth floor of the TSBD. Also See pages 68-70, in TKOAP
>>
>> > Walt
>>
>> > ************************************************************************=
>
>>
>> > > >> As the limousine passed the front steps of the Texas School Book De=
>positor=3D
>> > > >y,
>> > > >> five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near =
>the lef=3D
>> > > >t
>> > > >> front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete=
> in the=3D
>>
>> > > >> direction of the car (Michael Griffith, "Extra Bullets and Missed S=
>hots in=3D
>>
>> > > >> Dealey Plaza"; Weisberg, Whitewash, 187-89).
>>
>> > > >> Royce Skelton was a railroad worker watching the motorcade from ato=
>p the t=3D
>> > > >riple
>> > > >> underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I gue=
>ss it w=3D
>> > > >as a
>> > > >> bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the=
> Presid=3D
>> > > >ent's
>> > > >> car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- aw=
>ay from=3D
>> > > > the
>> > > >> building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hi=
>t with =3D
>> > > >a hard
>> > > >> object, it will scatter -- it will spread" (6 H 238).
>>
>> > > >> Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis was riding a motorcycle about 100 fe=
>et in f=3D
>> > > >ront
>> > > >> of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned=
> the
>> > > >> limousine and saw debris fly up, presumably from this same bullet s=
>trike (=3D
>> > > >John
>> > > >> S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw=
> it; sh=3D
>> > > >e
>> > > >> believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple unde=
>rpass (=3D
>> > > >7 H
>> > > >> 508-10).
>>
>> > > >> One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just s=
>outh of=3D
>> > > > Elm
>> > > >> Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Fost=
>er was
>> > > >> standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of El=
>m; he s=3D
>> > > >aw
>> > > >> the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was=
> instru=3D
>> > > >cted
>> > > >> to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystande=
>rs were=3D
>> > > > kept
>> > > >> away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, altho=
>ugh, ag=3D
>> > > >ain,
>> > > >> it would have to have been a truly terrible shot.
>>
>> > > >> Wayne and Edna Hartman were near Dealey Plaza when the shots rang o=
>ut. The=3D
>> > > >y ran
>> > > >> through the Plaza and encountered a policeman on the grassy knoll. =
>Edna Ha=3D
>> > > >rtman
>> > > >> later recalled to Jim Marrs, "He pointed to some bushes near the ra=
>ilroad =3D
>> > > >tracks
>> > > >> on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots cam=
>e from.=3D
>> > > > . . .
>> > > >> Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked l=
>ike mou=3D
>> > > >nds
>> > > >> made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the poli=
>ceman s=3D
>> > > >aid,
>> > > >> 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs,=
> Crossf=3D
>> > > >ire,
>> > > >> 315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and som=
>e men i=3D
>> > > >n
>> > > >> plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were look=
>ing for=3D
>> > > > a
>> > > >> bullet" (19 H 467-68).
>>
>> > > >> Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of p=
>ictures=3D
>>
>> > > >> showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes)=
> and
>> > > >> watching a blond-haired man he believed to be an FBI agent point at=
> the du=3D
>> > > >g-out
>> > > >> spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something =
>up from=3D
>> > > > the
>> > > >> turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry sai=
>d the m=3D
>> > > >an was
>> > > >> FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI S=
>pecial =3D
>> > > >Agent
>> > > >> Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Mu=
>rray al=3D
>> > > >so
>> > > >> photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had=
> been
>> > > >> cleared; this photograph ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star=
>-Telegr=3D
>> > > >am,
>> > > >> captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of Presi=
>dent Ke=3D
>> > > >nnedy
>> > > >> lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald =
>reporte=3D
>> > > >d in
>> > > >> reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of=
> the cr=3D
>> > > >ime
>> > > >> lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the=
> spot w=3D
>> > > >here
>> > > >> one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
>>
>> > > >> Richard Randolph Carr . . . heard four shots fired, the last three =
>of whic=3D
>> > > >h he
>> > > >> believed came from behind the wooden stockade fence on the grassy k=
>noll. H=3D
>> > > >e saw
>> > > >> a bullet strike the turf opposite the knoll where it "knocked a bun=
>ch of g=3D
>> > > >rass
>> > > >> up." Judging from the mark on the grass, Carr said the bullet had b=
>een
>> > > >> traveling in a southeast direction from the knoll toward the Crimin=
>al Cour=3D
>> > > >ts
>> > > >> building at Elm and Houston (Shaw trial transcript; HSCA volumes; C=
>raig).
>>
>> > > >> Richard Dudman wrote in the December 21, 1963, New Republic: "On th=
>e say t=3D
>> > > >he
>> > > >> President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]=
>. A gro=3D
>> > > >up of
>> > > >> police officers were examining the area at the side of the street w=
>here th=3D
>> > > >e
>> > > >> President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just fou=
>nd anot=3D
>> > > >her
>> > > >> bullet in the grass."
>>
>> > > >> The Warren Commission took Buddy Walthers' word that it wasn't a bu=
>llet or=3D
>>
>> > > >> bullet fragment.
>>
>> > > >> There was another bullet strike only about three to five feet from =
>this on=3D
>> > > >e,
>> > > >> but it wasn't noticed right away. Dealey Plaza witness John Martin =
>discove=3D
>> > > >red
>> > > >> it two and a half hours after the shooting, and quickly informed a =
>policem=3D
>> > > >an,
>> > > >> "you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, becaus=
>e that =3D
>> > > >will
>> > > >> show you where the bullet came from" (Griffith; Trask, 573). The ma=
>rk very=3D
Ben Holmes
Todd W. Vaughan says...
>
>On Dec 29, 5:45=A0pm, aeffects <aeffect...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 29, 2:08 pm, "Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaughan2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Dec 29, 10:31 am, Ben Holmes <ad...@websitewealthcollege.com>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > >wrote:
>> > > >> A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the =
>grass h=3D
>> > > >as
>> > > >> been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresenta=
>tion fo=3D
>> > > >und on
>> > > >> McAdams site, he does post the pictures. =3DA0(Sadly, he's not hone=
>st enough=3D
>> > > >> you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byli=
>ne actu=3D
>> > > >ally
>> > > >> was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John i=
>gnores =3D
>> > > >the
>> > > >> earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradic=>> > > >> These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a =
>good sy=3D
>> > > >nopsis
>> > > >> of some of the evidence for other bullets:
>>
>p
>> > > >of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw the
>> > > >bullet strike the turf."
>>
>> > > >But oficer Foster NEVER said he saw any such thing.
>>
>> > > >Why do you spread such lies?
>>
>ht the
>> > > shots came from?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - What did you then tell them?
>ston.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that =
>to Sawyer?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Told that to inspector Sawyer.
>> > > Mr. BALL - You told that to Sawyer?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Did you tell that to the sergeant?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - I don't know whether I told the sergeant or not.
>> > > Mr. BALL - What did you do after that?
>d find
>> > > where any of he shots hit.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Find anything?
>the
>> > > location.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Hit the turf?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Did you see any marks on the street in anyplace?
>cover
>> > > right on the corner and -
>> > > Mr. BALL - You saw a mark on the manhole cover did you?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes sir.
>ver. Do
>> > > you recognize that picture?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Yes, sir.
>> > > Mr. BALL - Does the picture show - tell me what it shows there.
>urf right
>> > > here [indicating].
>> > > Mr. BALL - See any mark on the manhole cover?
>n the
>> > > concrete, right in the corner.
>that?
>> > > Mr. FOSTER - Should have been approximately along here[indicating].
The same testimony that you CANNOT accept.
And are too dishonest to admit that you can't accept it.
The exact testimony that illustrates that you were correct... yet you've
dishonestly imputed to me a "fradulent attempt to support (my) bogus claim."
Anyone can see that his testimony does *NOT* state that he saw a bullet
striking. I'd ask if you really think I'm so stupid as to provide a citation
that fails to prove what I'm supposedly providing it for - but you're just
enough of a dishonest moron to say yes.
>No, don't man up for once with the guts to address the lie, Ben's lie,
Who's lie? Let's hear it, Toddy... who made the original statement?
>and your support of it. Instead ignore it, it'll go away, just like
>any shred of decency you were ever taught in your pathetic existence
>has.
>
>> > Todd
>>
>> > > >> *******************************************************************=
>*****
>> > > >> As the limousine passed the front steps of the Texas School Book De=
>positor=3D
>> > > >y,
>> > > >> five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near =
>the lef=3D
>> > > >t
>> > > >> front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete=
> in the=3D
>>
>> > > >> direction of the car (Michael Griffith, "Extra Bullets and Missed S=
>hots in=3D
>>
>> > > >> Dealey Plaza"; Weisberg, Whitewash, 187-89).
>>
>> > > >> Royce Skelton was a railroad worker watching the motorcade from ato=
>p the t=3D
>> > > >riple
>> > > >> underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I gue=
>ss it w=3D
>> > > >as a
>> > > >> bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the=
> Presid=3D
>> > > >ent's
>> > > >> car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- aw=
>ay from=3D
>> > > > the
>> > > >> building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hi=
>t with =3D
>> > > >a hard
>> > > >> object, it will scatter -- it will spread" (6 H 238).
>>
>> > > >> Dallas policeman Starvis Ellis was riding a motorcycle about 100 fe=
>et in f=3D
>> > > >ront
>> > > >> of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned=
> the
>> > > >> limousine and saw debris fly up, presumably from this same bullet s=
>trike (=3D
>> > > >John
>> > > >> S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw=
> it; sh=3D
>> > > >e
>> > > >> believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple unde=
>rpass (=3D
>> > > >7 H
>> > > >> 508-10).
>>
>> > > >> One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just s=
>outh of=3D
>> > > > Elm
>> > > >> Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Fost=
>er was
>> > > >> standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of El=
>m; he s=3D
>> > > >aw
>> > > >> the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was=
> instru=3D
>> > > >cted
>> > > >> to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystande=
>rs were=3D
>> > > > kept
>> > > >> away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, altho=
>ugh, ag=3D
>> > > >ain,
>> > > >> it would have to have been a truly terrible shot.
>>
>> > > >> Wayne and Edna Hartman were near Dealey Plaza when the shots rang o=
>ut. The=3D
>> > > >y ran
>> > > >> through the Plaza and encountered a policeman on the grassy knoll. =
>Edna Ha=3D
>> > > >rtman
>> > > >> later recalled to Jim Marrs, "He pointed to some bushes near the ra=
>ilroad =3D
>> > > >tracks
>> > > >> on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots cam=
>e from.=3D
>> > > > . . .
>> > > >> Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked l=
>ike mou=3D
>> > > >nds
>> > > >> made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the poli=
>ceman s=3D
>> > > >aid,
>> > > >> 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs,=
> Crossf=3D
>> > > >ire,
>> > > >> 315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and som=
>e men i=3D
>> > > >n
>> > > >> plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were look=
>ing for=3D
>> > > > a
>> > > >> bullet" (19 H 467-68).
>>
>> > > >> Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of p=
>ictures=3D
>>
>> > > >> showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes)=
> and
>> > > >> watching a blond-haired man he believed to be an FBI agent point at=
> the du=3D
>> > > >g-out
>> > > >> spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something =
>up from=3D
>> > > > the
>> > > >> turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry sai=
>d the m=3D
>> > > >an was
>> > > >> FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI S=
>pecial =3D
>> > > >Agent
>> > > >> Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Mu=
>rray al=3D
>> > > >so
>> > > >> photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had=
> been
>> > > >> cleared; this photograph ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star=
>-Telegr=3D
>> > > >am,
>> > > >> captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of Presi=
>dent Ke=3D
>> > > >nnedy
>> > > >> lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald =
>reporte=3D
>> > > >d in
>> > > >> reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of=
> the cr=3D
>> > > >ime
>> > > >> lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the=
> spot w=3D
>> > > >here
>> > > >> one of the bullets was recovered at 100 yards."
>>
>> > > >> Richard Randolph Carr . . . heard four shots fired, the last three =
>of whic=3D
Gil Jesus
Do you think they
> posted a guard at that point because someone peed their pants there
> during the shooting??
ROFLMAO...
Todd W. Vaughan
> In article <4975b3bf-3959-44be-abdd-0a65abd29...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Of course you lifted it from someone else. You also posted it as if it
were fact, I pointed as much out.
Problem is you got caught.
>
> And no, I didn't proof it statement by statement - I knew simply by reading it
> that what I knew of the evidence didn't contradict anything I was reading.
> Toddy enjoys doing this... picking a small inconsistency out of a large mass of
> evidence, and saying "Hey Look!!", as if it indicts the entire post.
>
> So yes, I have no problem with a small inaccuracy being pointed out - indeed, I
> quoted the testimony that proves that the snippet was not correct.
Pure cowardice.
Nothing more needs to be said.
>
> But Toddy knows quite well that Foster was an excellent eyewitness to a bullet
> Toddy can't admit existed.
But he wasn't a witness to a bullet striking there during the
shooting, was he?
He only found a mark in the grass after the shooting that he THOUGHT
might have been caused by a bullet.
And you know quite well (or should know) that other witnesses to the
same mark in the turf did not think it was neccessarily caused by a
bullet.
It would be one thing if Foster saw a bullet strike there and then
went there and found the mark, as you tried to claim he did, but
that's not what happened.
Foster also is certain that no one picked a bullet up from the
location, as you CT'ers would like to believe.
>
> >but you don't
> >know that he didn't actually see it, he may or may not have seen it
> >strike.....What's important ( and what you don't want others to see )
> >is the FACT that a bullet DID in fact strike there at the SW corner of
> >that sewer cover. Where Foster actually saw it or if someone lead him
> >to it is not important....(And you well know it) What's important is
> >the photos showing the police examining that area. ย Do you think they
> >posted a guard at that point because someone peed their pants there
> >during the shooting??
>
> Like all LNT'ers, Toddy can't explain the evidence in non-conspiratorial terms.
Plenty of explanations for the mark in the turf exist. You just
haven't done your research.
> >> > > >> FBI, but he didn't know his name; some- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more ยป
Todd W. Vaughan
> In article <05a4fdfb-5d2e-458c-812c-e8e7e6cbb...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>,
Of course I accept Foster's testimony, Benny - it's his interpretation
of what he found that is open to question.
>
> And are too dishonest to admit that you can't accept it.
>
> The exact testimony that illustrates that you were correct... yet you've
> dishonestly imputed to me a "fradulent attempt to support (my) bogus claim."
>
> Anyone can see that his testimony does *NOT* state that he saw a bullet
> striking. ย I'd ask if you really think I'm so stupid as to provide a citation
> that fails to prove what I'm supposedly providing it for - but you're just
> enough of a dishonest moron to say yes.
>
> >No, don't man up for once with the guts to address the lie, Ben's lie,
>
> Who's lie? ย Let's hear it, Toddy... who made the original statement?
>
Yours of course, in posting it as fact and claiming it was a "good
synopsis of some of the evidence for other bullets".
Tell us Ben, in that fantasy land that is Ben World does a "good
synsopis" contain a false claim regarding what a wintess saw?
> >e- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:97083d49-2523-467e...@s27g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking of Liars>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/todd_vaughan.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tomnln
tomnln
THIS toad>>> http://whokilledjfk.net/todd_vaughan.htm
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:65dbaea0-db67-4a1b...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Walt
> In article <4975b3bf-3959-44be-abdd-0a65abd29...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Ben, It's not only Toad who attempts to discredit a FACTUAL post by
pointing out tiny inaccuracies or misspellings.
Dud and Von Pea Brain, and most LNer's also engage in this petty
crap. They think that if they point out that a CT author of a post,
has misspelled a word then what he's saying isn't accurate, and he's
lying. I doubt that they fool anybody with their petty crap. In fact
I'd wager that they damage their own credibility more than the CT
they intend to discredit.
Walt
Walt
> toad thinks Foster was looking for a Missing Piano there.
>
> THIS toad>>> ย http://whokilledjfk.net/todd_vaughan.htm
>
Hey Toad..... Could you list about a half dozen of those reason's for
that bullet divot??
Walt
Yes, I think he probably DID see the bullet strike the SW corner of
the concrete apron around the iron sewer cover. How else would he have
known about it??
Walt
> ...
>
> read more ยป- Hide quoted text -
bcsor...@msn.com
> A citation to the photograph showing a bullet being dug out of the grass has
> been asked for, and as much as I dislike the lies and misrepresentation found on
> McAdams site, he does post the pictures. (Sadly, he's not honest enough to tell
> you that the picture was published in the paper, and what it's byline actually
> was - see below for the answer - also - pay attention to how John ignores the
> earliest statments in favor of much later assertions that contradict the
> earliest ones): http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/slug.htm
>
> These following snippets came from a post by Dave Reitz in 1998, a good synopsis
>
> As the limousine passed the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository,
> five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the left
> front of the car; it kicked up a cloud of dust and bits of concrete in the
> direction of the car (Michael Griffith, "Extra Bullets and Missed Shots in
>
> underpass. He told the Warren Commission, "I saw a bullet, or I guess it was a
> bullet -- I take for granted it was -- hit in the left front of the President's
> car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it -- away from the
> building. . . . on the pavement -- you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard
>
> of the President's limousine. When the shooting began, Ellis turned the
> limousine and saw debris fly up, presumably from this same bullet strike (John
> S. Craig, "The Guns of Dealey Plaza"). Mrs. Virginia Baker also saw it; she
> believed the shots came from in front of the car by the triple underpass (7 H
> 508-10).
>
> One shot missed the limousine and struck a spot in the grass just south of Elm
> Street, about 350 feet from the Book Depository. Officer J. W. Foster was
> standing on top of the triple underpass, and had a clear view of Elm; he saw
> the bullet strike the turf. He reported this to a superior, and was instructed
> to guard the area (Shaw and Harris, 72-75. Journalists and bystanders were kept
> away from the area. This could be the first shot that missed, although, again,
>
> on the north side of the street and said that's where the shots came from. . . .
> Then I noticed these two parallel marks on the ground that looked like mounds
> made by a mole. I asked, 'What are these, mole hills?' and the policeman said,
> 'Oh no, ma'am, that's where the bullets struck the ground'" (Marrs, Crossfire,
> 315-16). Photographer Hugh Betzner noticed "police officers and some men in
> plain clothes . . . digging around in the dirt as if they were looking for a
> bullet" (19 H 467-68).
>
> Photographers Jim Murray and Bill Allen took a famous sequence of pictures
> showing Deputy Sheriff E. R. "Buddy" Walthers (in civilian clothes) and
> watching a blond-haired man he believed to be an FBI agent point at the dug-out
> spot on the ground just off Elm Street, bend over, scoop something up from the
> turf, then put the item in his pocket. Police Chief Jesse Curry said the man was
> FBI, but he didn't know his name; some have identified him as FBI Special Agent
> Robert Barrett . . . The photographs have been widely published. Murray also
> photographed the hole that was left in the turf after the scene had been
> cleared; this photograph ran in the following day's Fort Worth Star-Telegram,
> captioned, "One of the rifle bullets fired by the murderer of President Kennedy
> lies in the grass across Elm Street . . ." The Dallas Times-Herald reported in
> reference to the hole in the grass, "Dallas Police Lt. J. C. Day of the crime
> lab estimated the distance from the sixth-floor window . . . to the spot where
>
>
> believed came from behind the wooden stockade fence on the grassy knoll. He saw
> a bullet strike the turf opposite the knoll where it "knocked a bunch of grass
> up." Judging from the mark on the grass, Carr said the bullet had been
> traveling in a southeast direction from the knoll toward the Criminal Courts
> building at Elm and Houston (Shaw trial transcript; HSCA volumes; Craig).
>
> Richard Dudman wrote in the December 21, 1963, New Republic: "On the say the
> President was shot I happened to learn of a possible fifth [bullet]. A group of
> police officers were examining the area at the side of the street where the
> President was hit, and a police inspector told me they had just found another
> bullet in the grass."
>
> The Warren Commission took Buddy Walthers' word that it wasn't a bullet or
> bullet fragment.
>
> There was another bullet strike only about three to five feet from this one,
> but it wasn't noticed right away. Dealey Plaza witness John Martin discovered
> it two and a half hours after the shooting, and quickly informed a policeman,
> "you better get your boss down here to check this thing out, because that will
> show you where the bullet came from" (Griffith; Trask, 573). The mark very
> clearly does not point back to the Texas School Book Depository; it appears to
> have struck from the direction of the County Records Building, where a 30.06
>
> including identifications officer Lt. Carl Day, who spent some time at this
> grass, but given the high visibility of the grass strike and the reasonably
>
> Another bullet struck the sidewalk along the north side of Elm Street. It
> authorities. At least one photograph of it was taken; it is pictured on several
> books, including Groden's The Killing of the President, 40. After the Warren
> Report came out, Aldredge was shocked not to see the missed bullet mentioned and
> notified the FBI (Weisberg, Never Again, 383-390). The FBI located it and wrote
> up a report describing it as approximately four inches long, a half inch wide,
> the southwest sixth floor TSBD window; Harrison Livingstone notes it also lines
> up with the south storm drain by the triple underpass (Griffith; Livingstone,
> High Treason 2).
>
> There are numerous reports of other missed shots; some bullets have even been
> casing has an odd crimp in its neck, suggesting it may have been fired from a
> sabot, a device used to fire a smaller caliber bullet out of a large caliber
> weapon. This is useful for criminals, as the caliber, type, and brand of the
> recovered bullet cannot be linked with their gun (Marrs, Crossfire, 317). The
> A fired but intact bullet was found on the top of the Massey Roofing Co.
> in 1967. No official study was made until the HSCA pronounced it a jacketed,
> soft-point .30 caliber bullet consistent with Remington-Peters ammunition; it
> had not been fired from the 6.5 caliber Mannlicher-Carcano (7 HSCA 357; Carol
>
> In 1974, Dallas resident Richard Lester swept Dealey Plaza with a metal
> detector, and discovered a fragment -- the base portion of a bullet -- 500
> turned it over to the FBI, and it was studied by the House Select Committee on
> Assassinations in 1978. They found that the fragment was from a 6.5 mm bullet,
> but that it had not been fired from the alleged "Oswald" Mannlicher-Carcano: its
> rifling pattern was different (Associated Press, January 5, 1978; 7 HSCA 395;
> Hewett). A whole, unfired .45 caliber bullet was found in 1976 by Hal Luster by
> December 23, 1978).
>
> In the summer of 1966, an intact bullet was found lodged in the roof of a
> quarter mile away from the Texas School Book Depository -- within rifle range
> -- in the direction that Oswald had allegedly fired. The FBI identified the
> manufacture. This is the type of bullet the CIA used with their silenced M-1
> .30 caliber carbine rifles; civilians were not allowed to purchase them until
>
curtj...@hotmail.com
http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09/fp.back_issues/11th_Issue/guns_dp.html
Keep comin' around Rip (Van Winkle)!