Harold Norman: Key Assassination Earwitness....And Too Often Overlooked
David VP
knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear
the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt
action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth
floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly
above me." -- Via Harold Norman's 12/04/63 Affidavit
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does anyone truly think that Mr. Harold Norman was full of shit when he
claimed to hear the rifle's bolt being worked directly over his head on
11/22 during the shooting...and hearing exactly THREE shots fired from
over his head...and hearing EXACTLY THREE spent hulls hitting the floor
above him?
This is damning additional evidence of Oswald's guilt (coupled with all
the other ballistics, witness, fingerprint, and fiber evidence that
back up LHO's guilt as well).
And it's interesting to note in the Warren Report, that ALL 7
Commissioners for the WC (in three separate re-creations of bullet
shells hitting the floor above Norman's position on the 5th Floor) each
easily were able to hear the cartridge cases hitting the floor.
Now, either Harold Norman was an amazing liar, or somebody fired three
shots from just above Norman's 5th-Floor position on 11/22/63 (with
three shells hitting the floor too).
Many CTers think the three shells were "planted" in the SN after the
shooting. But Norman heard the shells dropping to the floor DURING THE
SHOOTING, not several seconds AFTER the shooting ceased. (Did the
plotters have a guy standing in the SN dropping shells to the floor IN
REAL TIME during the actual 8 seconds of assassination gunfire on
November 22nd?
"Real Time, As-It's-Happening Shell Planting!" Now THAT'S Patsy-Framing
organization and efficiency, for damn sure!
So, if Norman's not a liar (and there's absolutely no reason to think
he is), then three shots WERE definitely fired from that southeast
corner window of the Book Depository's sixth floor. Period. Which is
something that
very, very few conspiracy theorists I've ever talked to actually
believe occurred that day.
And --- Harold Norman's testimony, all by itself, makes Robert Groden's
crazy "No Shots Fired From The SN Window" theory look even MORE
ludicrous.
Walt
David VP wrote:
> "I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I
> knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear
> the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt
> action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth
> floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly
> above me." -- Via Harold Norman's 12/04/63 Affidavit
>
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
>
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Does anyone truly think that Mr. Harold Norman was full of shit when he
> claimed to hear the rifle's bolt being worked directly over his head
Yes indeed he was!
on 11/22 during the shooting...and hearing exactly THREE shots fired
from
> over his head...and hearing EXACTLY THREE spent hulls hitting the floor
> above him?
Again ...He's full of it.....He was just saying what the authorities
wanted him to say.
>
> This is damning additional evidence of Oswald's guilt (coupled with all
> the other ballistics, witness, fingerprint, and fiber evidence that
> back up LHO's guilt as well).
Nonsense!! It's not evidence at all ....it's a CROCK!!
>
> And it's interesting to note in the Warren Report, that ALL 7
> Commissioners for the WC (in three separate re-creations of bullet
> shells hitting the floor above Norman's position on the 5th Floor) each
> easily were able to hear the cartridge cases hitting the floor.
Were they there when the noisy motorcade was passing by??? Or were they
there when al traffic on Elm street was detoured and it was quiet?
Walt
Anthony Marsh
> "I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I
> knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear
> the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt
> action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth
> floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly
> above me." -- Via Harold Norman's 12/04/63 Affidavit
>
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
>
> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Does anyone truly think that Mr. Harold Norman was full of shit when he
> claimed to hear the rifle's bolt being worked directly over his head on
> 11/22 during the shooting...and hearing exactly THREE shots fired from
> over his head...and hearing EXACTLY THREE spent hulls hitting the floor
> above him?
>
No, and you can be like Harris and handpick your witnesses and claim
they are perfect. Guess what? The acoustical evidence found three and
only three shots from that window. So therefore you claim that the
scientists were full of shit? I see a double standard at work there.
> This is damning additional evidence of Oswald's guilt (coupled with all
> the other ballistics, witness, fingerprint, and fiber evidence that
> back up LHO's guilt as well).
>
That has nothing to do with Oswald. They did not SEE the man pulling the
trigger.
> And it's interesting to note in the Warren Report, that ALL 7
> Commissioners for the WC (in three separate re-creations of bullet
> shells hitting the floor above Norman's position on the 5th Floor) each
> easily were able to hear the cartridge cases hitting the floor.
>
Wonderful. So there were three shots fired from the sniper's nest. So what?
> Now, either Harold Norman was an amazing liar, or somebody fired three
> shots from just above Norman's 5th-Floor position on 11/22/63 (with
> three shells hitting the floor too).
>
Duh! You'd never claim that your handpicked witness was a liar.
> Many CTers think the three shells were "planted" in the SN after the
Many? Sure, 3 or 4.
> shooting. But Norman heard the shells dropping to the floor DURING THE
> SHOOTING, not several seconds AFTER the shooting ceased. (Did the
> plotters have a guy standing in the SN dropping shells to the floor IN
> REAL TIME during the actual 8 seconds of assassination gunfire on
> November 22nd?
>
> "Real Time, As-It's-Happening Shell Planting!" Now THAT'S Patsy-Framing
> organization and efficiency, for damn sure!
>
> So, if Norman's not a liar (and there's absolutely no reason to think
> he is), then three shots WERE definitely fired from that southeast
> corner window of the Book Depository's sixth floor. Period. Which is
> something that
> very, very few conspiracy theorists I've ever talked to actually
> believe occurred that day.
>
Very few? Virtually all.
> And --- Harold Norman's testimony, all by itself, makes Robert Groden's
> crazy "No Shots Fired From The SN Window" theory look even MORE
> ludicrous.
>
Groden never said anything like that. As usual you are lying about what
someone wrote to try to make him look like a kook.
David VP
Naturally! Wasn't EVERYBODY (per you kooks)?
Seemingly not a person had ANY will of his own to withstand the WC's
mighty pull and power....right?
In a word -- Bullshit!
>>> "Were they there when the noisy motorcade was passing by? Or were they there when all traffic on Elm street was detoured and it was quiet?" <<<
Well, actually, on the day of the first re-creation (March 20, 1964),
Norman stated that "the noise outside was less on the day of the
assassination than on the day of the test" (WR; Pg. 71). And the shells
were audible to Norman's ears when the bullet shells hit the floor on
that NOISIER day on 03/20/64.
Now, that first (of four) tests did not involve the actual Commission
members. But on THREE separate dates later in 1964 (May 9th; June 7th;
and September 6th), members of the WC participated in repeated
re-creations of the very same type -- and all seven WC members "clearly
heard the shells drop to the floor" (WR; Pg. 71). .....
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0048a.htm
So, if Norman's a bullshitter, I guess that makes his 5th-Floor
buddies, Bonnie Ray Williams and James Jarman, liars and bullshitters
too, huh? Because they both back up Norman's story. (I'm not saying
either Williams or Jarman claimed to hear the rifle's bolt or the
shells drop. I'm only saying that both of them said that Norman said
those things at the time of the shooting.)
CTers have no good reason at all to think that Harold Norman is a liar
(other than the reason of being stuck in Kooksville, which makes
certain CTers look at every witness sideways, except perhaps a witness
who supports some "CT" cause).
Norman never once swayed from his "3-Shots, I Heard Shells Dropping"
account of the event.
It's amazing how many witnesses who were supposedly strong-armed by the
WC, the FBI, or whoever, never felt the desire to get the "Real Truth"
off their chest in over 42 years of withholding it.
I guess the cover-uppers just got lucky (yet again) that the gobs of
witnesses they needed to strong-arm were virtually all weak sisters who
would keep the "truth" to themselves for decades on end.
Kooky.
David VP
crazy "No Shots Fired From The SN Window" theory look even MORE
ludicrous."
TONY: "Groden never said anything like that. As usual you are lying
about what someone wrote to try to make him look like a kook."
~~~~~~~
You'd better dust off your copy of TKOAP then, Tony. And get ready for
a whopper of a surprise too. For, in that 1993 publication, Mr. Groden
absolutely does postulate a shooting scenario featuring up to TEN
gunshots....with ZERO of these 10 likely coming from the SN window.
Groden does say that ONE, and only one, of these shots could have
"possibly" come from the SN window....but even THAT one shot he feels
came "more probably from the second floor of the Dal-Tex building"
(TKOAP; Pg. 28)....thereby putting it back down to a "0-of-10 From The
SN" shooting scenario.
Go to Pages 20 through 40 of TKOAP and see for yourself.
I just love it when CT-Kooks don't even know what other kooks (like Mr.
Groden, a supposedly top-notch "JFK Researcher") are doing.
You'd think there'd be some cohesiveness amongst the kooks after 4-plus
decades. Esp. amongst the "top researchers". Strange, huh?
Ben Holmes
says...
>
>"I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I
>knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear
>the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt
>action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth
>floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly
>above me." -- Via Harold Norman's 12/04/63 Affidavit
>
>http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
>
>http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>Does anyone truly think that Mr. Harold Norman was full of shit when he
>claimed to hear the rifle's bolt being worked directly over his head on
>11/22 during the shooting...and hearing exactly THREE shots fired from
>over his head...and hearing EXACTLY THREE spent hulls hitting the floor
>above him?
Well, lets examine this assertion of Norman's.
First, he did *NOT* provide an affidavit in the first day or two, as most other
eyewitnesses this close to the case did. He was apparently first interviewed on
November 26th by FBI Agent Kreutzer. And although Norman was questioned about
this interview during his testimony - the WC didn't see fit to include this
interview among all the other exhibits. He was next interviewed on December 4th
by Secret Service Agent Carter (CE 493). It was this interview that comprised
the affidavit that Davey-boy references above. Interestingly, although this
affidavit claims what Norman said, Norman himself *denies* a part of it during
his testimony:
Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't you?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by
this witness, which I now mark 493.
(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for
identification.)
Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do
you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret
Service, on that day?
Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will
ask you if you told him that:
"Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I
heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and
I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the
bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the
fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above
me."
Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from
directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I
heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because
I didn't have any idea what time it was.
So we have an "earwitness" who heard a most valuable bit of evidence, but wasn't
taken to the police station to provide an affidavit. He "knows" that the
assassin is directly above him, but what did his *ACTIONS* show?
Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.
Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
And *why* did Norman feel the need to run and look at the Grassy Knoll?
Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the
railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running
that way for. I thought maybe--
Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?
Tis fortunate that Mr. Ball jumped in there... we might have discovered that Mr.
Norman thought the shots had *come* from the Grassy Knoll... This is far from
the only example of the staff jumping in to forestall an eyewitness from saying
something inconvenient to the Commission.
So we have an important earwitness... although he wasn't important enough in the
first few days to bother getting an affidavit from.
Then when the FBI *does* get around to talking with him - that particular report
is buried, and not included in the 26 volumes... Could it be that it conflicts
with what SS Agent Carter managed to put down as Norman's Affidavit? Certainly
*Norman* didn't like everything that Carter put down - he *denied* a part of his
"affidavit" under oath as quoted above.
Another rather interesting fact, is that the Commission didn't mention the six
witnesses, standing on the steps of the TSBD, not far from underneath where LHO
allegedly fired - all stated that they believed that the shots came from the
west - a location that fits with the Grassy Knoll. But they weren't young,
black, and able to be coerced like Norman, Jarman, and Williams.
My crystal ball tells me that Davey-boy will be unable to respond without
snipping, ducking, and running...
Ben Holmes
says...
If you really want to go there, let's look at Jarman's affidavit:
I work for the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm Street, as a Checker on the
first floor for Mr. Roy S. Truly. On Friday, November 22, 1963, I got to work at
8:05 a.m. The first time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was about
8:15 a.m. He was filling orders on the first floor. A little after 9:00 a.m. Lee
Oswald asked me what all the people were doing standing on the street. I told
him that the President was supposed to come this way sometime this morning. He
asked me, "Which way do you think he is coming?". I told him that the President
would probably come down Main Street and turn on Houston and then go down Elm
Street. He said, "Yes, I see". I only talked with him for about three or four
minutes. The last time I saw Lee Oswald on Friday, November 22, 1963 was between
11:30 a.m. and 12:00 noon when he was taking the elevator upstairs to go get
some boxes. At about 11:45 a.m. all of the employees who were working on the 6th
floor came downstairs and we were all out on the street at about 12:00 o'clock
noon. These employees were: Bill Shelley, Charles Givens, Billy Lovelady, Bonnie
Ray (last name not known) and a Spanish boy (his name I cannot remember). To my
knowledge Lee Oswald was not with us while we were watching the parade.
Interestingly, he says *nothing* about hearing the shots immediately above him.
He *does* however, illustrate that LHO wasn't even aware that JFK was coming
right in front of the TSDB.
And as his testimony makes perfectly clear, *he* thought the shots were out in
the street somewhere... He attributed at least the first shot to a backfire.
He also makes it clear that Norman *DID NOT* pinpoint the sounds as you believe
he did:
Mr. BALL - Did Norman say anything else that you remember?
Mr. JARMAN - He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the
building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't
sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the
building.
You want to look at the evidence, Davey-boy, and you're just going to look
foolish.
>CTers have no good reason at all to think that Harold Norman is a liar
>(other than the reason of being stuck in Kooksville, which makes
>certain CTers look at every witness sideways, except perhaps a witness
>who supports some "CT" cause).
>
>Norman never once swayed from his "3-Shots, I Heard Shells Dropping"
>account of the event.
Actually, he did, as I quoted from his testimony.
Liar, aren't you?
>It's amazing how many witnesses who were supposedly strong-armed by the
>WC, the FBI, or whoever, never felt the desire to get the "Real Truth"
>off their chest in over 42 years of withholding it.
Many of them *have*.
David VP
4th, instead of November 22nd. And did think that was a bit unusual.
But let me ask Ben-boy 2 questions......
1.) Do you think that the DPD (or the SS/FBI) performed a secret "test"
of some kind prior to December 4th (the date of Norman's affidavit),
with this test confirming the fact that when bullet shells were dropped
to the floor on the sixth floor, those shells could be heard on the
floor below?
Because the WC didn't conduct its first "Shells Dropping To The Floor"
test until March 20th, 1964....months after Norman gave his affidavit
stating that he had specifically HEARD BULLET SHELLS HITTING THE FLOOR
ABOVE HIM during the shooting on 11/22.
The above point will probably be tossed aside as a "Who Cares?" by
Ben-Kook, but in the "CT Scenario" that Ben likes to paint re. Norman
and his "lies" (or "coerced lies" if you will), it seems somewhat
important that the after-the-assassination "cover-up operatives" should
have MADE SURE that, in fact, bullet shells COULD be heard by people on
the 5th Floor. And they needed to make sure of this PRIOR to Norman
stating it in his December 4th affidavit.
Because, unless ALL SEVEN Warren Commissioners were also "in" on this
portion of the proverbial "cover-up" involving the bullet shells being
audible as they hit the plywood floor, the people putting those words
in Norman's mouth have got a potentially fairly-large problem. That
being -- what if shells positively could NOT have been heard by human
ears through the floorboards of the Depository (on ANY of the four
different 1964 re-creations of the event)?
What would the strong-arming plotters have done then? They'd be stuck
with forcing Norman to say something on December 4th that was PROVEN to
be untrue and physically impossible on 4 later occasions (the 4 tests
conducted in the TSBD throughout 1964).
I suppose Ben has a good answer for this nifty little hunk of
"smooth-sailing" for the plotters/cover-up agents, though.
Were all 7 Commission members lying when they said they could "easily
hear" shells hitting the floor above the 5th Floor?
Or is this just one more (of probably HUNDREDS) of the extremely lucky
breaks the grand Patsy Team experienced while they proceeded to frame a
completely-innocent man named Oswald for the murders of two men on
11/22/63?
~~~~~
2.) Are there ANY witnesses who you feel were not "gotten to" or
"coerced" in some fashion by the DPD, the FBI, the SS, or the WC? Let's
see a list of those witnesses who actually told the truth, the whole
truth, and nuttin' but (and then we'll see how many on that list had
something to say that CT-Kooks can use to spell "Conspiracy" with).
(I can now envision such a Ben-approved witness list with one single
name on it -- S.M. Holland.)
David VP
Well, for Christ sake, Ben, Jarman never mentions the shooting AT ALL
in his entire affidavit! Of course he didn't mention where he thought
the shots came from in a document which has zero comments in it at all
regarding the shooting in question. (Why he never mentions the shooting
in that document, I haven't a clue. Do you? Was he told by the evil
cover-uppers that he shouldn't mention anything about the actual
shooting in his affidavit? Prob'ly so, huh?)
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/jarman1.htm
>>> "He {Jarman} *does*, however, illustrate that LHO wasn't even aware that JFK was coming right in front of the TSDB [sic]." <<<
Yeah, Ben, be sure and use that hunk of evidence to help exonerate your
hero named Lee. That information there will surely help completely
ERASE the fact that Oswald's gun, shells, and fingerprints were found
upstairs later that day.
Lee Harvey Oswald, IMO, was smarter than some people give him credit
for (on occasion anyway; his lousy escape plan notwithstanding).*
* = Although it's fairly obvious that LHO really hadn't the slightest
idea whether if he'd get a good chance to kill JFK that day or not,
right up to 12:30. In fact, he almost HAD to have had a mindset of "IF
I GET A CHANCE TO SHOOT HIM, FINE; IF NOT, THAT'S FINE, TOO".
Because there is no way in hell he shoots from that window if there's
anybody else on that 6th Floor at 12:30. That, IMO, partially explains
his crappy escape plan. Because Oswald HIMSELF really didn't believe
he'd get a chance to commit that crime.
How COULD he have thought he'd have a good chance at doing it from a
location that could have conceivably been crawling with other employees
(which it almost was; because several employees, including Norman,
Jarman, Shelley, Lovelady, and Arce, were discussing, shortly before
12:30, the possibility of going back up to the 6th Floor to watch the
motorcade; luckily for Oswald, none of those employees decided to go to
that floor to watch the parade).
Back to Lee Harvey's "smarts":
It was certainly smart of Lee to spout "I'm just a patsy" in the DPD
corridor (that great-big lie worked to perfection, setting the "Patsy"
wheels in motion amongst wide-eyed CT-Kooks; and those are wheels that
haven't stopped turning to this day).
And it was smart of Oswald, IMO, to play it kinda dumb on the morning
of 11/22, when he asked fellow employees questions like "What's going
on outside?"; and "Which direction will he be coming from?".
Oswald was probably playing a cute little "game" on those occasions,
IMO. And that patented Oswald smirk probably crossed his murdering face
after he asked those seemingly-"innocent" questions prior to the
motorcade's arrival in DP on that Friday morning.
But there is absolutely NO DOUBT at all that Oswald positively KNEW
that the President was going to be in Dallas on Friday, 11/22. We know
he knew this because Ruth Paine told him (on Thursday night) that JFK
was coming to town the following day. Oswald played a little game with
Ruth on that occasion too -- as he shrugged, mumbled something
incoherent, and then brushed on by Ruth on the Paine's front lawn on
11/21 PM.
But, quite obviously, Oswald knew of Kennedy's impending 11/22 visit
PRIOR to that Ruth Paine remark on Thursday night -- because he went to
Irving on Thursday to get his rifle out of Ruth's garage. That is a
rock-solid certainty, based on all the circumstantial evidence that
tells any reasonable person examining the case that he went there to
get that rifle.
It's quite possible, however, that one of Oswald's questions to fellow
employees was not part of his cute "game" he was playing with them that
day -- the question about the exact streets JFK's car would be
travelling. Oswald might have simply guessed that the motorcade would
proceed through town on Main Street....but perhaps he was not aware of
the Elm St. turn.
I think he probably did read it in the paper on Wednesday (via his
habit of reading day-old newspapers while at work in the TSBD's Domino
Room). The precise routing of the motorcade was published in both
Dallas papers on Tuesday (11/19).
It really wouldn't have mattered, however. Because Oswald could still
have fairly-easily shot JFK on Main Street, if the turn onto Elm had
been eliminated.
>>> "He {Jarman} also makes it clear that Norman *DID NOT* pinpoint the sounds as you believe he did:
Mr. BALL - Did Norman say anything else that you remember?
Mr. JARMAN - He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside
the
building..." <<<
Big LOL here!
For crying out loud, Ben! Can you possibly split those hairs to a finer
pulpy mass?!
Jarman said that Norman claimed the shots came "from inside the
building" (the TSBD), but that's not nearly good enough testimony for
Ben-Kook FROM A SECOND-HAND WITNESS WHO WAS TELLING THE WC WHAT
SOMEBODY ELSE SAID! Ben wants the whole nine yards from Jarman re. what
another person (Norman) said.
And I guess Ben would rather search through Jarman's testimony when it
comes to what NORMAN said, instead of going to the horse's mouth to see
what Norman HIMSELF had to say on the matter to the WC....which was
this, btw:
Mr. BALL -- "And you said you thought it came from where?"
Mr. NORMAN -- "Above where we were, above us."
Oh, yes, I forgot. ~slaps forehead~
Norman's been "coerced" by the evil bad guys! So nothing Norman says
can be trusted! It's ALL lies! Right, Ben-K?
Tell me, is Jarman's testimony about Norman's saying "the shots came
from inside the building" worth a hoot either? Or is Jarman merely a
pawn too, being manipulated every which way but loose by the evil
conspirators?
Ben Holmes
Snipped, ducked, and is running so fast, we can't see the evidence...
In article <1154156385.3...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>, David VP
says...
Ben Holmes
As I predicted, Davey-boy was unable to respond without snipping, ducking, and
running.
Note that he snipped *MY ENTIRE POST*, and is not responding to *any* of my
points made. Indeed, he is skipping ahead to new points of his own.
In article <1154152369.5...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com>, David VP
says...
Anthony Marsh
> DVP: "Harold Norman's testimony, all by itself, makes Robert Groden's
> crazy "No Shots Fired From The SN Window" theory look even MORE
> ludicrous."
>
> TONY: "Groden never said anything like that. As usual you are lying
> about what someone wrote to try to make him look like a kook."
>
> ~~~~~~~
>
> You'd better dust off your copy of TKOAP then, Tony. And get ready for
> a whopper of a surprise too. For, in that 1993 publication, Mr. Groden
> absolutely does postulate a shooting scenario featuring up to TEN
> gunshots....with ZERO of these 10 likely coming from the SN window.
>
You said "no shots fired." That is a lie. On page 28 Groden speculates
that one shot was fired from the sniper's nest window.
You must be thinking of Lifton, Groden's enemy, who claims that no shots
came from behind.
> Groden does say that ONE, and only one, of these shots could have
> "possibly" come from the SN window....but even THAT one shot he feels
> came "more probably from the second floor of the Dal-Tex building"
> (TKOAP; Pg. 28)....thereby putting it back down to a "0-of-10 From The
> SN" shooting scenario.
>
Groden does not specify the location of the shooter for the other shots,
so you can't exclude the sniper's nest.
> Go to Pages 20 through 40 of TKOAP and see for yourself.
>
> I just love it when CT-Kooks don't even know what other kooks (like Mr.
> Groden, a supposedly top-notch "JFK Researcher") are doing.
>
Sure, sure. Coming from a WC kook who's never actually talked to Bob
Groden, I think we can dismiss anything you say.
> You'd think there'd be some cohesiveness amongst the kooks after 4-plus
> decades. Esp. amongst the "top researchers". Strange, huh?
>
Then why isn't there more cohesiveness amongst the WC kooks now? Each
one seems to have his own SBT, like a flavor of the month club. Posner
has his Magic Twig Theory. Then Sturdivan comes out with his kooky book.
Then Fuhrman destroys the SBT, the sine qua non of the WC. Why can't you
police your own people better?
charles wallace
Harold Norman is one of the best earwitness for Conspiracy Theorists.
Norman didn't claim to know the timing of the 3 shots but other evidence
indicates he heard 'boom' click-click, 'boom' click-click, 'boom' with
about 2 and 1/2 seconds between the first and second shots and about 5
seconds between the last two shots. The click-click describes the
rifle's bolt working and the empty shell hitting the floor above him
that he heard.
Now what makes Norman such a good witness for Oswald not being the
shooter? He DID NOT hear a click-click after the last shot and he heard
NO ONE walking or running away after the last shot. The rifle was found
with a live bullet in the firing chamber. Witness Walter Brennan on the
street below supports the notion that the shooter was not in any hurry
by Brennan's saying that after the last shot the shooter slowly pulled
the rifle muzzle back inside the building. Tom Dillard on Houston
photographed this shooter standing in the closed adjacent window after
the shooter had removed a light colored jacket he had on and he moved a
box or two. A couple of minutes after this eyewitness Lillian Mooneyham
saw this man still standing there slightly back from the very dirty
window.
Now if you believe that Harold Norman heard that third shell drop after
the last shot could you explain how Gerald Posner in his book 'Case
Closed' got Norman's direct quote wrong? Oh, BTW in the same book
Posner shows Dillard's photo saying it was taken seconds after the last
shot. The photo shows Norman at the fifth floor window. The gunman's
face is light in the photo but he is there dressed in a policeman's
uniform IMO.
Regards, Charles
Case Wide Open: A JFK Murder Investigation
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/CaseWideOpenAJFK
David VP
Yep...that should qualify as enough of a reason to let Saint O. off the
hook....in a Kook World that is.
>>> "And he {Norman} heard NO ONE walking or running away after the last shot." <<<
A kook excuse, of course.
Which doesn't mean that Oswald didn't walk or run away. Amongst the
confusion, and the men on the 5th Floor talking to one another...why
WOULD Norman have been LISTENING for the sound of the killer's
footsteps?
>>> "Witness Walter Brennan on the street below..." <<<
I didn't know Walter was in DP that day!! Was Walter a plotter, too,
perhaps? .....
charles wallace
You claim he heard a small piece of brass hit the floor above him but
didn't hear a foot hitting the floor while walking or running. You
claim Oswald went down the staircase. Yet none of the three guys on the
fifth floor claim that they heard someone going down the WOODEN
staircase.
You take the shooter for an idiot to satisfy your fantasy. The shooter
could hear the three guys below him talking so he knew if he past by the
fifth floor on the staircase that someone there might see who he was.
He waited until they left.
Bud
Which could mean that the DPD was trying to develop information
about Oz`s whereabout at the time Jarman gave this affidavit, and not
where the shots came from, which was well established by then (but not
so much that kooks like Walt can figure it out).
> He *does* however, illustrate that LHO wasn't even aware that JFK was coming
> right in front of the TSDB.
That statement illustrates what a stupid ass you are. By playing
dumb he gets information fed to him without divulging any. He was a
crafty and cunning commie cunt.
> And as his testimony makes perfectly clear, *he* thought the shots were out in
> the street somewhere... He attributed at least the first shot to a backfire.
Yah, you`d think if the DPD was telling them what to say, their
statements would be all pretty much identicle. And what does it say
about people`s ability to detect the direction of sound when two people
close to each other place the source of the same noise in two
distinctly different locations?
> He also makes it clear that Norman *DID NOT* pinpoint the sounds as you believe
> he did:
>
> Mr. BALL - Did Norman say anything else that you remember?
> Mr. JARMAN - He said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the
> building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't
> sound like it was too far off anyway. And so we ran down to the west side of the
> building.
How does this trump what Norman said?
> You want to look at the evidence, Davey-boy, and you're just going to look
> foolish.
In Norman`s affidavit, he mentions hearing shells hiting the floor
above him, if I remember corectly. He never went up stairs, but guess
what corroborating physical evidence was found above when people did?
> >CTers have no good reason at all to think that Harold Norman is a liar
> >(other than the reason of being stuck in Kooksville, which makes
> >certain CTers look at every witness sideways, except perhaps a witness
> >who supports some "CT" cause).
> >
> >Norman never once swayed from his "3-Shots, I Heard Shells Dropping"
> >account of the event.
>
>
> Actually, he did, as I quoted from his testimony.
You quoted Jarman. Stupid ass.
> Liar, aren't you?
Idiot.
> >It's amazing how many witnesses who were supposedly strong-armed by the
> >WC, the FBI, or whoever, never felt the desire to get the "Real Truth"
> >off their chest in over 42 years of withholding it.
>
>
> Many of them *have*.
To kook satisfaction they have. Tell us about Carr again.
David VP
Which, of course, is exactly what I already said in prior posts. I said
that Groden had one shot possibly coming from the SN window....but that
even THAT shot "most probably" (Groden's words on Page 28) came from
the Dal-Tex. So even that one single SN shot is "most probably" not
correct in Groden's mind. Which makes it 0-for-10 when accounting for
Groden's "best guess" re. all the shots.
>>> "Groden does not specify the location of the shooter for the other shots, so you can't exclude the sniper's nest." <<<
Bullshit! Are you blind??
Groden certainly DOES specify the location of EACH & EVERY proposed
make-believe shot in TKOAP. He's used a diagram of DP for each shot and
has drawn a black line from the source of EACH proposed shot (with just
a single diagram used to illustrate the last 4 shots that Groden has
invented in his own mind; with four separate lines coming from various
places to represent where each one was supposedly coming from).
And that's interesting too on Groden's part....because even on the page
he's made for "Additional Shots" (beyond the "Oliver Stone Six", or a
close version of the Stone theory anyway), when he could have easily
saved some embarrassment by having one or two of those made-up shots
coming from the SN -- he's decided that ZERO of those four "maybe"
shots could have come from the SN either! Incredible.
Bud
Only kooks see this as critical information. Likely most
investigators concluded shots from the sniper`s nest in the first half
hour or so. Norman only corroborates what they already knew.
> He "knows" that the
> assassin is directly above him, but what did his *ACTIONS* show?
That he wasn`t curious enough to go up to the sixth floor and look.
> Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do?
> Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.
> Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right?
> Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
>
> And *why* did Norman feel the need to run and look at the Grassy Knoll?
>
> Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
> Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the
> railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running
> that way for. I thought maybe--
> Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?
>
> Tis fortunate that Mr. Ball jumped in there...
That way Ben can complete Norman`s sentence for him <snicker>.
> we might have discovered that Mr.
> Norman thought the shots had *come* from the Grassy Knoll... This is far from
> the only example of the staff jumping in to forestall an eyewitness from saying
> something inconvenient to the Commission.
Luckily, we have Ben the Kook to complete their thoughts for them.
> So we have an important earwitness... although he wasn't important enough in the
> first few days to bother getting an affidavit from.
Likely not the information they were most interested at the time.
They had plenty to indicate where the shots came from.
> Then when the FBI *does* get around to talking with him - that particular report
> is buried, and not included in the 26 volumes... Could it be that it conflicts
> with what SS Agent Carter managed to put down as Norman's Affidavit? Certainly
> *Norman* didn't like everything that Carter put down - he *denied* a part of his
> "affidavit" under oath as quoted above.
>
> Another rather interesting fact, is that the Commission didn't mention the six
> witnesses, standing on the steps of the TSBD, not far from underneath where LHO
> allegedly fired - all stated that they believed that the shots came from the
> west - a location that fits with the Grassy Knoll.
Really? Isn`t the grassy knoll south of the steps of the TSBD? And,
if these witness heard three shots from the grassy knoll, what does
that say about the reliability of witness accounts?
> But they weren't young,
> black, and able to be coerced like Norman, Jarman, and Williams.
Ben is using his mystical powers of assigning reasons for the way
things occurred. So the kook version is that the conspirators jumped on
the horn, called Fritz or someone else in charge, and said "Look, if
you don`t get those witnesses on the 5th floor to say they heard shots
above them, we`ll strangle your children with their own entrails." And
so, the DPD moved with such efficiency that all three of the accounts
look totally different, with much less corroboration than if they had
been a coordinated effort to dictate to them what they saw.
> My crystal ball tells me that Davey-boy will be unable to respond without
> snipping, ducking, and running...
Is that the same devise you use to divine what witnesses would have
said if they weren`t interupted, or to tell when witnesses have been
coerced?
David VP
Quite obviously, yes. That's what MUST have happened. Period. But it's
not like Norman or the other men on the 5th Floor were LISTENING
intently for the sound of Oswald's footsteps.
>>> "You claim Oswald went down the staircase." <<<
There can be no doubt of this fact.
>>> "Yet none of the three guys on the fifth floor claim that they heard someone going down the WOODEN staircase." <<<
LOL. Why WOULD they have HAD the "hear" Oswald going down the stairs?
The stairs were on the OTHER SIDE OF THE BUILDING, not on the south
side.
>>> "You take the shooter for an idiot..." <<<
No, I take YOUR phantom "I Think I'll Wait Here In The Exact Spot Where
I Pulled The Trigger And Where A Bunch Of Attention Will Undoubtedly Be
Focused On Me Very Shortly" assassin for an "idiot" via your version of
events....a crazy version which has a killer with a gun just standing
there in the SN for XX number of minutes after shooting at the
President.
>>> "The shooter could hear the three guys below him talking..." <<<
You talked to the "real" shooter and got this info from him, did ya??
(Oh brother.)
charles wallace
that floor but the sound of walking and talking can not?
(Oh, brother)
David VP
audible....I just said that Norman, et al, didn't hear them (i.e., they
weren't paying attention to them).
Ben Holmes
says...
Actions speak louder than words... what did Norman *do* after supposedly hearing
the assassin directly above him?
charles wallace
I'm not sure what you mean. Norman and his two buddies went to the
western windows on the fifth floor to see what the crowd was doing by
running to the grassy knoll.
Regards, Charles
charles wallace
getting caught or seen. He stayed at the window to watch and see if his
partner on the knoll was killed or arrested. He also waited til the
fifth floor witnesses left before leaving himself. He ejected the final
shell and chambered a live round on his way to the stairs. The round
was to kill any curious fifth floor guy that might come up the stairs.
He would use his revolver only as a last resort.
David VP
Oh, yeah....Norman was supposed to play hero (like the dozens & dozens
of people who, per CTers, did just that by running directly at a person
with a gun when they "Stormed the Knoll").
Norman should have dashed upstairs and tackled Oswald...and then tied
him up and gagged him.
And the fact that Norman didn't play the part of hero (and the fact
that Norman went to the west-end windows to look out at the Knoll
activity) indicates that Oswald is innocent.*
* = Kook Rule 794B.
tomnln
grassy knoll.
WHY didn't they holler to those below (Including DPD) that the shots came
from above them?
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154211815.6...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>>>> "Actions speak louder than words... what did Norman *do* after
>>>> supposedly hearing the assassin directly above him?" <<<
>
>
> Oh, yeah....Norman was supposed to play hero (like the dozens & dozens
> of people who, per CTers, did just that by running directly at a person
> with a gun when they "Stormed the Knoll").
>
> Norman should have dashed upstairs and tackled Oswald...and then tied
> him up and gagged him.
>
> And the fact that Norman didn't play the part of hero indicates that
> Oswald's is innocent.*
David VP
And to think the kooks treat Specter like dirt for his "invention".
There's a pot and a kettle in here someplace.
Bud
In what way is the concept that Norman went to the west windows
after the shots negate the idea that he heard shells hitting the floor
above him? Should he have stayed still? Should he have went
immediately to the stairwell? He did what he did, and it isn`t an unual
reaction to try to gather information to help plot a course of action.
David VP
Oh great! That'll make it THREE murders to have to frame Oswald for on
11/22!
William of Ockham was definitely not friends with these
plotters....plotters who would have had an easier time changing the
course of the Mississippi River than they had at pulling off the
laughable multi-shooter Patsy Plot that the kooks believe was in place
on 11/22/63.
Ben Holmes
>
>I'm not sure what you mean. Norman and his two buddies went to the
>western windows on the fifth floor to see what the crowd was doing by
>running to the grassy knoll.
If you believe that this is perfectly understandable behavior after hearing an
assassin shoot the President from just above you - then there's nothing I can
say to further explain.
charles wallace
I suppose that we all wish different things had taken place. Brennan
could have rushed in and up to the floor he had seen the rifle, yelling
'follow me' all the way with perhaps Officer Baker and Mr. Truly joining
him. I believe the three fifth floor guys knew they were not armed and
that the killer above them was and would not hesitate in killing them.
The times also were such that black men might have felt that they should
not interfere with white men's business and that they should remain
observers. I believe Williams for instance initially neglected to even
mention that he had been on the sixth floor right before the shooting in
the effort to stay out of it.
I think we have a missing black couple from the knoll because they saw a
white man kill the president and believe he would not hesitate in
killing them.
tomnln
the grassy
knoll that the shots came from Abonve Him.
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1154216262.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Donald Willis
>
>
>David VP wrote:
>> "I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I
>> knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear
>> the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt
>> action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth
>> floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly
>> above me." -- Via Harold Norman's 12/04/63 Affidavit
>>
>> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
>>
>> http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Does anyone truly think that Mr. Harold Norman was full of shit when he
>> claimed to hear the rifle's bolt being worked directly over his head
>
>
>
>on 11/22 during the shooting...and hearing exactly THREE shots fired
>from
>> above him?
>
>Again ...He's full of it.....He was just saying what the authorities
>wanted him to say.
>>
And note that it took some time to prep him. He didn't make any statement until
the next Monday, I believe, 11/25! Pretty long time to let such an important
witness cool his heels....
dw
>> This is damning additional evidence of Oswald's guilt (coupled with all
>> the other ballistics, witness, fingerprint, and fiber evidence that
>> back up LHO's guilt as well).
>
>
>>
>> And it's interesting to note in the Warren Report, that ALL 7
>> Commissioners for the WC (in three separate re-creations of bullet
>> shells hitting the floor above Norman's position on the 5th Floor) each
>> easily were able to hear the cartridge cases hitting the floor.
>
>there when al traffic on Elm street was detoured and it was quiet?
>
>Walt
Donald Willis
>
>In article <15415-44C...@storefull-3176.bay.webtv.net>, charles wallace
>says...
>>
>>Ben,
>>
>>I'm not sure what you mean. Norman and his two buddies went to the
>>western windows on the fifth floor to see what the crowd was doing by
>>running to the grassy knoll.
>
>If you believe that this is perfectly understandable behavior after hearing an
>assassin shoot the President from just above you - then there's nothing I can
>say to further explain.
>
Williams' contention that the former opened the first western window they
supposedly ran to. It had been open for at least 4 or 5 minutes....
dw
Bud
tomnln wrote:
> He should have hollered to ALL the people Below (including DPD) running to
> the grassy
> knoll that the shots came from Abonve Him.
Yet didn`t.
Bud
Ben Holmes wrote:
> In article <15415-44C...@storefull-3176.bay.webtv.net>, charles wallace
> says...
> >
> >Ben,
> >
> >I'm not sure what you mean. Norman and his two buddies went to the
> >western windows on the fifth floor to see what the crowd was doing by
> >running to the grassy knoll.
>
> If you believe that this is perfectly understandable behavior after hearing an
> assassin shoot the President from just above you - then there's nothing I can
> say to further explain.
Who says their behavior has to be perfectly understandable, or that
it was hard to understand? Kook criteria and expectations
notwithstanding, they did what they did, and what they did doesn`t
negate what they related later.
Bud
He isn`t that important a witness. He only corroborates what the
knew a half hour after the shooting stopped, that shots came from the
6th floor of the TSBD. The investigative resources where probably
stretched thin chasing down more important leads, not interviewing
witnesses that could only tell them what they already knew. He only
becomes "important" when kooks contest shots were fired from the SN,
something I doubt the investigators could have forseen happening a few
days after the assassination.
Note that Don the Kook assumes this delay in interviewing Norman
must mean that the time in the interm was spent prepping him on what to
say. Such nonsense is what passes for rational thought in the CT
community.
David VP
Yet another worthwhile and intelligently-thoughtful post by Bud.
Thanks.
I've NEVER run across a person (who has studied the JFK case) who has
more common sense than Bud. Never. (And I think I have quite a bit of
it myself.) ~wink~
This EXACT same type of rational and logical approach to the JFK and
Tippit murders is what we will be finding in the many pages of "Final
Verdict" by Vince Bugliosi.
Which is a goodly part of the reason I'm so looking forward to that
volume(s).
Re. what Bud just said above.....
If, as CTers seem to think, several of the witnesses were "gotten to"
and prepped by the "evil cover-up conspirators" before these witnesses
testified, then why weren't these witnesses "prepped" a little better
in order to solidify the official LN story even more?
That is to say -- Why didn't they tell Brennan what to say with regard
to the assassin's clothes (in order to match perfectly, or at least
closer, the rust-colored shirt Oswald wore on 11/22)?
And why didn't they just tell Brennan to say that the SN window was
only open part of the way (which it was in fact), instead of it being
wide open?
And why didn't the cover-up agent in charge of Harold Norman tell him
to keep quiet about the fact that Norman and the other Negroes had
moved over to the west-side windows just after the shots were fired?
Seems to me that the CTers who favor the likelihood that many of the
witnesses were mere pawns in the hands of the conspirators (the
after-the-fact "cover-up" agents that is) want to have their cake and
eat it too.
I.E., it would seem that some CTers feel that many witnesses were
talking out of both sides of their mouths -- sometimes telling the WC,
et al, what they wanted to hear....but on other key occasions, these
same witnesses slipped and said something that might lead certain
people to the idea that something hinky was going on during the
assassination.
I guess that's one of the advantages of being in the CT-Kook camp --
you can spout CT-favoring stuff all day long and don't have to worry
too much about any of it making a great deal of sense at the end of the
day (or at the end of the theory).
Walt
David VP wrote:
> >>> "Note that Don the Kook assumes this delay in interviewing Norman must mean that the time in the interim was spent prepping him on what to say. Such nonsense is what passes for rational thought in the CT community." <<<
>
>
> Yet another worthwhile and intelligently-thoughtful post by Bud.
> Thanks.
>
> I've NEVER run across a person (who has studied the JFK case) who has
> more common sense than Bud. Never. (And I think I have quite a bit of
> it myself.) ~wink~
>
read the Warren Commission's fable and accepted it as true. Now you
think your well informed, go about regurgitating nonsense and make
fools of yourselves.
> This EXACT same type of rational and logical approach to the JFK and
> Tippit murders is what we will be finding in the many pages of "Final
> Verdict" by Vince Bugliosi.
>
> Which is a goodly part of the reason I'm so looking forward to that
> volume(s).
>
> Re. what Bud just said above.....
>
> If, as CTers seem to think, several of the witnesses were "gotten to"
> and prepped by the "evil cover-up conspirators" before these witnesses
> testified, then why weren't these witnesses "prepped" a little better
> in order to solidify the official LN story even more?
>
> That is to say -- Why didn't they tell Brennan what to say with regard
> to the assassin's clothes (in order to match perfectly, or at least
> closer, the rust-colored shirt Oswald wore on 11/22)?
>
> And why didn't they just tell Brennan to say that the SN window was
> only open part of the way (which it was in fact), instead of it being
> wide open?
Dear Dumbass.... The Warren Commission lawyers couldn't "tell" Brennan
what to say. ( He had already submitted a couple of written affidavits
about what he had OBSERVERED at the time of the murder) They could
only badger him and attempt to twist his words (as slimey lawyers are
prone to do).
Brennan DESCRIBED the actions and clothing of the gunman.....He
DESCRIBED a man who was "about 30 to 35 years old" who "weighed 170 to
175 pounds" who was dressed in a "dingy WHITE shirt" and trousers that
were a shade lighter than the shirt. He DESCRIBED the man a
"standing and steadying the rifle against the left side of a window".
He said he could see the entire upper half of the man's body from the
hips to the top of his head. Any way you look at it he was not
DESCRIBING the partly open window of the make believe "Sniper's Nest"
nor was he DESCRIBING Lee Oswald, who was just 24, weighing 140 pounds,
and dressed in a brick red shirt and gray trousers.
>
> And why didn't the cover-up agent in charge of Harold Norman tell him
> to keep quiet about the fact that Norman and the other Negroes had
> moved over to the west-side windows just after the shots were fired?
>
> Seems to me that the CTers who favor the likelihood that many of the
> witnesses were mere pawns in the hands of the conspirators (the
> after-the-fact "cover-up" agents that is) want to have their cake and
> eat it too.
>
> I.E., it would seem that some CTers feel that many witnesses were
> talking out of both sides of their mouths --
It wasn't the witnesses who were talking out both sides of their
mouths. ( Many protested that the words that were attributed to them,
were not their words.)
Walt
David VP
So what? Don't tell me you actually think the WC and other authorities
were morally above the notion of falsifying an official affidavit or
two?
You must be kidding!!
Per many/most CT-Kooks, those bums on the WC and with the DPD/FBI would
do anything it took to frame their lone patsy....they'll tamper with
the official evidence all day long....they'll actually completely alter
the "best evidence" (JFK's own body!), per Mr. Lifton's idiocy....and
they'll strong-arm witnesses until the cows come home!
And you think a piece of paper, like Brennan's initial affidavit, would
be off limits for this ever-efficient band of "I'll Do Anything It
Takes To Subvert The Truth" cover-up operatives?
Come now!
David VP
Vince Bugliosi is a "fool" too, then....correct? And he also believes
in "nonsense" too....correct?
Think again, my kooky friend. ......
"I am writing two volumes on the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy. My conclusion is that I believe beyond ALL doubt that Lee
Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy, and beyond all REASONABLE doubt that he
acted alone." -- Vincent Bugliosi
~~~~~
"If there's one thing I take pride in, it's that I never, ever make a
charge without supporting it. You might not agree with me, but I
invariably offer an enormous amount of support for my position." --
Vincent Bugliosi
Donald Willis
And any witness who was asked (generally by Belin, who seems to have been
curious about this particular subject, tho we don't have his conclusions) said
the window was "wide open"--Fischer, Edwards, Brennan, Couch. LNers like to
ignore this startling unanimity & switch to happier subjects (for them) like the
hulls that Capn Fritz pocketed. (Did he replace them with the same shells? Did
he put them down in a different spot? We'll never know, thanks to DPD
tampering....)
dw
tomnln
You seem to know in Advance what "Da Bug" will do.
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154281734.8...@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
David VP
Just using CS&L to know that VB isn't silly enough to say this......
"I agree with all of {Gerald} Posner's conclusions -- that Oswald
killed Kennedy and acted alone -- but I disagree with his methodology.
There's a credibility problem. When he is confronted with a situation
antithetical to the view he's taking, he ignores or distorts it." -- V.
Bugliosi
......and then not follow through with enacting his own quote.
Worried just a tad, Tomnln?
I don't blame ya.
tomnln
It illustrates your WIDE knowledge on the subject.
You would be the perfect candidate to address these Official Records.
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1154265145.9...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Bud
tomnln wrote:
> I just Love your Scientific reply Bud.
And I love your warm full lips, your firm, taunt buttock (yes,
singular), your scent (vaguely like moth crystals), the wool under your
fingernails, your girlish giggle when you read "Doonesbury", your
perforated scrotum, just about everything about you except your
scientific replies, which grate on my nerves.
> It illustrates your WIDE knowledge on the subject.
I love it when you write "wide" all in capitals. It`s so naughty.
> You would be the perfect candidate to address these Official Records.
I`ll bet I would be.
Ben Holmes
says...
>
>Ben,
>
>I suppose that we all wish different things had taken place.
Wishing has nothing to do with it. If *YOU* believe that the actions of
Williams, Jarman, and Norman after allegedly hearing an assassin above them is
logical, then as I stated, there's really nothing more for me to say.
>Brennan
>could have rushed in and up to the floor he had seen the rifle, yelling
>'follow me' all the way with perhaps Officer Baker and Mr. Truly joining
>him. I believe the three fifth floor guys knew they were not armed and
>that the killer above them was and would not hesitate in killing them.
That fails to explain their actions.
tomnln
tom Gives worry.
Nobody worries about someone evaluating a book that hasn't even been written
yet.
You're the one who Refuses to address the Official Records.
http://whokilledjfk.net/ Go For It Bunky.
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1154285411....@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Bud
Ben Holmes wrote:
> In article <19903-44C...@storefull-3171.bay.webtv.net>, charles wallace
> says...
> >
> >Ben,
> >
> >I suppose that we all wish different things had taken place.
>
>
> Wishing has nothing to do with it. If *YOU* believe that the actions of
> Williams, Jarman, and Norman after allegedly hearing an assassin above them is
> logical, then as I stated, there's really nothing more for me to say.
KOOKFIGHT! Charles leads with an insinuation that Ben lives in a
dream world, where rocking horse people eat marshmallow pies. Ben is
quick to counter with logic (no telling what orifice he produced that
from), which is akin to trying to stop a werewolf with a crucifix. Stay
tuned fight fans, this could get ugly.
> >Brennan
> >could have rushed in and up to the floor he had seen the rifle, yelling
> >'follow me' all the way with perhaps Officer Baker and Mr. Truly joining
> >him. I believe the three fifth floor guys knew they were not armed and
> >that the killer above them was and would not hesitate in killing them.
>
>
> That fails to explain their actions.
And as we all know, when an explaination isn`t available, a kook is
required to invent one, and insert it.
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1154289477.2...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "You said "no shots fired." That is a lie. On page 28 Groden speculates that one shot was fired from the sniper's nest window." <<<
>
> Which, of course, is exactly what I already said in prior posts. I said
> that Groden had one shot possibly coming from the SN window....but that
> even THAT shot "most probably" (Groden's words on Page 28) came from
> the Dal-Tex. So even that one single SN shot is "most probably" not
> correct in Groden's mind. Which makes it 0-for-10 when accounting for
> Groden's "best guess" re. all the shots.
>
>
No, you only have 0 for 6 at most. You don't know, and he does not say
where the other four came from.
>>>> "Groden does not specify the location of the shooter for the other shots, so you can't exclude the sniper's nest." <<<
>
> Bullshit! Are you blind??
>
> Groden certainly DOES specify the location of EACH & EVERY proposed
> make-believe shot in TKOAP. He's used a diagram of DP for each shot and
> has drawn a black line from the source of EACH proposed shot (with just
> a single diagram used to illustrate the last 4 shots that Groden has
> invented in his own mind; with four separate lines coming from various
> places to represent where each one was supposedly coming from).
>
No, he diagrams only 6 and in one of them shows a line from the sniper's
nest.
> And that's interesting too on Groden's part....because even on the page
> he's made for "Additional Shots" (beyond the "Oliver Stone Six", or a
> close version of the Stone theory anyway), when he could have easily
> saved some embarrassment by having one or two of those made-up shots
> coming from the SN -- he's decided that ZERO of those four "maybe"
> shots could have come from the SN either! Incredible.
>
Groden never said that no shots came from the sniper's nest.
David VP
LOL!
As if "0 for 6" isn't absurd enough?
>>> "He {Groden-Kook} does not say where the other four came from." <<<
Yes...he does. Kook.
Page 40. Plain as day. Via 4 separate lines. And not a one of them
drawn from the SN.
0-of-10. Plain as day.
Not my fault you can't see it, or won't admit it.
But even 1-of-10 is utterly silly (given the 3 shells within the SN).
But, as stated several times previously, that one SN shot proposed in
the book is really reduced to Zero via Groden's own words.
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "No, you only have 0 for 6 at most." <<<
>
> LOL!
>
> As if "0 for 6" isn't absurd enough?
>
>
We are not talking about what is absurd. Groden already knows that I
think his shooting sequence is absurd. What I object to is your lying
about what he said.
Walt
David VP wrote:
> I did, indeed, notice that Harold Norman's affidavit was dated December
> 4th, instead of November 22nd. And did think that was a bit unusual.
>
> But let me ask Ben-boy 2 questions......
>
> 1.) Do you think that the DPD (or the SS/FBI) performed a secret "test"
> of some kind prior to December 4th (the date of Norman's affidavit),
> with this test confirming the fact that when bullet shells were dropped
> to the floor on the sixth floor, those shells could be heard on the
> floor below?
As I recall when Norman was asked if he could hear the shells hitting
the floor during a "recreation" of the shooting, he replied..." Yes, I
could hear them,... Or WHATEVER they were dropping up there"
Makes one wonder if they were dropping 50 caliber machine gun shells to
ensure that Norman would hear them. Norman's ad lib remark indicates
that he wasn't sure they were dropping spent 6.5mm Carcano shells.
Walt
>
> Because the WC didn't conduct its first "Shells Dropping To The Floor"
> test until March 20th, 1964....months after Norman gave his affidavit
> stating that he had specifically HEARD BULLET SHELLS HITTING THE FLOOR
> ABOVE HIM during the shooting on 11/22.
>
> The above point will probably be tossed aside as a "Who Cares?" by
> Ben-Kook, but in the "CT Scenario" that Ben likes to paint re. Norman
> and his "lies" (or "coerced lies" if you will), it seems somewhat
> important that the after-the-assassination "cover-up operatives" should
> have MADE SURE that, in fact, bullet shells COULD be heard by people on
> the 5th Floor. And they needed to make sure of this PRIOR to Norman
> stating it in his December 4th affidavit.
>
> Because, unless ALL SEVEN Warren Commissioners were also "in" on this
> portion of the proverbial "cover-up" involving the bullet shells being
> audible as they hit the plywood floor, the people putting those words
> in Norman's mouth have got a potentially fairly-large problem. That
> being -- what if shells positively could NOT have been heard by human
> ears through the floorboards of the Depository (on ANY of the four
> different 1964 re-creations of the event)?
>
> What would the strong-arming plotters have done then? They'd be stuck
> with forcing Norman to say something on December 4th that was PROVEN to
> be untrue and physically impossible on 4 later occasions (the 4 tests
> conducted in the TSBD throughout 1964).
>
> I suppose Ben has a good answer for this nifty little hunk of
> "smooth-sailing" for the plotters/cover-up agents, though.
>
> Were all 7 Commission members lying when they said they could "easily
> hear" shells hitting the floor above the 5th Floor?
>
> Or is this just one more (of probably HUNDREDS) of the extremely lucky
> breaks the grand Patsy Team experienced while they proceeded to frame a
> completely-innocent man named Oswald for the murders of two men on
> 11/22/63?
>
> ~~~~~
>
> 2.) Are there ANY witnesses who you feel were not "gotten to" or
> "coerced" in some fashion by the DPD, the FBI, the SS, or the WC? Let's
> see a list of those witnesses who actually told the truth, the whole
> truth, and nuttin' but (and then we'll see how many on that list had
> something to say that CT-Kooks can use to spell "Conspiracy" with).
>
> (I can now envision such a Ben-approved witness list with one single
> name on it -- S.M. Holland.)
David VP
I didn't (of course).
But you did, when you said this......
"He {Robert J. Groden} does not say where the other four came from.
.... He diagrams only 6..." -- T. Marsh
Care to retract that false statement yet?
David VP
Yeah, a kook might wonder that. But probably not any non-kooks. (Maybe
they dropped a bowling ball on the floor, huh??)
BTW -- Norman's "whatever he had up there" remark was actually
referring specifically to the RIFLE, not the shells being dropped.
.....
"Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three
something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle
or whatever he had up there" -- Harold Norman (WCR; Pg. 71)
Walt
David VP wrote:
> >>> "Makes one wonder if they were dropping 50 caliber machine gun shells to ensure that Norman would hear them." <<<
>
> Yeah, a kook might wonder that. But probably not any non-kooks. (Maybe
> they dropped a bowling ball on the floor, huh??)
>
> BTW -- Norman's "whatever he had up there" remark was actually
> referring specifically to the RIFLE, not the shells being dropped.
> .....
>
> "Well, I heard the same sound, the sound similar. I heard three
> something that he dropped on the floor and then I could hear the rifle
I heard three something that he dropped on the floor..... "SOMETHING"
that he dropped on the floor
Does that sound like Norman was ABSOLUTELY SURE that the sound he heard
was the small little 6.5 brass cartridges hitting the floor?
Walt
David VP
Oh for Christ sake. Norman said the sound was the "same" (or "similar")
during the re-creation. What the fuck more do you want out of him? Is
he supposed to have X-ray vision and see through the floor above to
verify the "something" as being 6.5mm bullet shells?
Can you split these hairs any finer?
Your efforts to exonerate a double-murderer are utterly laughable. But
you'll keep trying to take Saint O. off the hook....right?
Walt
Right!!..... Only I don't think of him as Saint O. I think of him as
a naive, dumbass kid, who got suckered in by a band of of wily, old,
cutthroat pirates. He was playin with C-4 and thought it was a bar of
soap..... It blew his lights out.
Walt
Walt
Right!!..... Only I don't think of him as Saint O. I think of him as
Walt
Bud wrote:
> Ben Holmes wrote:
> > says...
> > >
> > >"I heard a shot and several seconds later I heard two more shots. I
> > >knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and I could hear
> > >the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I also could here the bolt
> > >action of the rifle. I saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth
> > >floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly
> > >above me." -- Via Harold Norman's 12/04/63 Affidavit
> > >
> > >http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/norman_1.htm
> > >
> > >http://jfkassassination.net/russ/m_j_russ/norman.htm
> > >
> > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > >
> > >Does anyone truly think that Mr. Harold Norman was full of shit when he
> > >claimed to hear the rifle's bolt being worked directly over his head on
> > >11/22 during the shooting...and hearing exactly THREE shots fired from
> > >over his head...and hearing EXACTLY THREE spent hulls hitting the floor
> > >above him?
> >
> > Well, lets examine this assertion of Norman's.
> >
> > First, he did *NOT* provide an affidavit in the first day or two, as most other
> > eyewitnesses this close to the case did. He was apparently first interviewed on
> > November 26th by FBI Agent Kreutzer. And although Norman was questioned about
> > this interview during his testimony - the WC didn't see fit to include this
> > interview among all the other exhibits. He was next interviewed on December 4th
> > by Secret Service Agent Carter (CE 493). It was this interview that comprised
> > the affidavit that Davey-boy references above. Interestingly, although this
> > affidavit claims what Norman said, Norman himself *denies* a part of it during
> > his testimony:
> >
> > Mr. BALL. You did make a statement later to the Secret Service, didn't you?
> > Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
> > Mr. BALL. I have here a document 493, which is a copy of a statement made by
> > this witness, which I now mark 493.
> > (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 493, for
> > identification.)
> > Mr. BALL. The document that I have here shows the date 4th of December 1963. Do
> > you remember having made a statement to Mr. Carter, Special Agent of the Secret
> > Service, on that day?
> > Mr. NORMAN. I can't remember the exact date but I believe I remember Mr. Carter.
> > Mr. BALL. I want to call your attention to one part of the statement and I will
> > ask you if you told him that:
> > "Just after the President passed by, I heard a shot and several seconds later I
> > heard two more shots. I knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and
> > I could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. I could also hear the
> > bolt action of the rifle. I also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the
> > fifth floor and I felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above
> > me."
> > Did you make that statement to the Secret Service man?
> > Mr. NORMAN. I don't remember making a statement that I knew the shots came from
> > directly above us. I didn't make that statement. And I don't remember saying I
> > heard several seconds later. I merely told him that I heard three shots because
> > I didn't have any idea what time it was.
> >
> > So we have an "earwitness" who heard a most valuable bit of evidence, but wasn't
> > taken to the police station to provide an affidavit.
>
> Only kooks see this as critical information. Likely most
> investigators concluded shots from the sniper`s nest in the first half
> hour or so. Norman only corroborates what they already knew.
>
> > He "knows" that the
> > assassin is directly above him, but what did his *ACTIONS* show?
>
> That he wasn`t curious enough to go up to the sixth floor and look.
>
> > Mr. BALL. After that happened, what did you do?
> > Mr. NORMAN. Well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway.
> > Mr. BALL. The farthest window, is that right?
> > Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
> >
> > And *why* did Norman feel the need to run and look at the Grassy Knoll?
> >
> > Mr. BALL. Why did you run down to that window?
> > Mr. NORMAN. Well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the
> > railroad tracks, and we ran over there. Curious to see why everybody was running
> > that way for. I thought maybe--
> > Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor?
> >
> > Tis fortunate that Mr. Ball jumped in there...
>
> That way Ben can complete Norman`s sentence for him <snicker>.
>
> > we might have discovered that Mr.
> > Norman thought the shots had *come* from the Grassy Knoll... This is far from
> > the only example of the staff jumping in to forestall an eyewitness from saying
> > something inconvenient to the Commission.
That's true...... One of my favorite examples of the lawyers leading
and coaching a witness is in the testimony of Cap't Fritz. Fritz is
on record as saying he took no notes during his interrogation of Oswald
( which we now know is a lie) But at anyrate the lawyer was attempting
to get Fritz to say something that would be recorded in the records. (
I don't recall what the lawyer wanted Fritz to say, but he tried
several times to get Fritz to say it, and Fritz kept sayin he could
remember......Finally in exasperation the lawyer told Fritz "You took
notes, you've got them right there, look at them."......
Walt
>
> Luckily, we have Ben the Kook to complete their thoughts for them.
>
> > So we have an important earwitness... although he wasn't important enough in the
> > first few days to bother getting an affidavit from.
>
> Likely not the information they were most interested at the time.
> They had plenty to indicate where the shots came from.
>
> > Then when the FBI *does* get around to talking with him - that particular report
> > is buried, and not included in the 26 volumes... Could it be that it conflicts
> > with what SS Agent Carter managed to put down as Norman's Affidavit? Certainly
> > *Norman* didn't like everything that Carter put down - he *denied* a part of his
> > "affidavit" under oath as quoted above.
> >
> > Another rather interesting fact, is that the Commission didn't mention the six
> > witnesses, standing on the steps of the TSBD, not far from underneath where LHO
> > allegedly fired - all stated that they believed that the shots came from the
> > west - a location that fits with the Grassy Knoll.
>
> Really? Isn`t the grassy knoll south of the steps of the TSBD? And,
> if these witness heard three shots from the grassy knoll, what does
> that say about the reliability of witness accounts?
>
> > But they weren't young,
> > black, and able to be coerced like Norman, Jarman, and Williams.
>
> Ben is using his mystical powers of assigning reasons for the way
> things occurred. So the kook version is that the conspirators jumped on
> the horn, called Fritz or someone else in charge, and said "Look, if
> you don`t get those witnesses on the 5th floor to say they heard shots
> above them, we`ll strangle your children with their own entrails." And
> so, the DPD moved with such efficiency that all three of the accounts
> look totally different, with much less corroboration than if they had
> been a coordinated effort to dictate to them what they saw.
>
> > My crystal ball tells me that Davey-boy will be unable to respond without
> > snipping, ducking, and running...
>
> Is that the same devise you use to divine what witnesses would have
> said if they weren`t interupted, or to tell when witnesses have been
> coerced?
>
> > >This is damning additional evidence of Oswald's guilt (coupled with all
> > >the other ballistics, witness, fingerprint, and fiber evidence that
> > >back up LHO's guilt as well).
> > >
> > >And it's interesting to note in the Warren Report, that ALL 7
> > >Commissioners for the WC (in three separate re-creations of bullet
> > >shells hitting the floor above Norman's position on the 5th Floor) each
> > >easily were able to hear the cartridge cases hitting the floor.
> > >
> > >Now, either Harold Norman was an amazing liar, or somebody fired three
> > >shots from just above Norman's 5th-Floor position on 11/22/63 (with
> > >three shells hitting the floor too).
> > >
> > >Many CTers think the three shells were "planted" in the SN after the
> > >shooting. But Norman heard the shells dropping to the floor DURING THE
> > >SHOOTING, not several seconds AFTER the shooting ceased. (Did the
> > >plotters have a guy standing in the SN dropping shells to the floor IN
> > >REAL TIME during the actual 8 seconds of assassination gunfire on
> > >November 22nd?
> > >
> > >"Real Time, As-It's-Happening Shell Planting!" Now THAT'S Patsy-Framing
> > >organization and efficiency, for damn sure!
> > >
> > >So, if Norman's not a liar (and there's absolutely no reason to think
> > >he is), then three shots WERE definitely fired from that southeast
> > >corner window of the Book Depository's sixth floor. Period. Which is
> > >something that
> > >very, very few conspiracy theorists I've ever talked to actually
> > >believe occurred that day.
> > >
> > >And --- Harold Norman's testimony, all by itself, makes Robert Groden's
> > >crazy "No Shots Fired From The SN Window" theory look even MORE
> > >ludicrous.
> > >
Walt
David VP
Roberto Clemente, Bill Mazeroski, et al??? (Great team in '60.)
BTW...do you think Oswald killed J.D. Tippit?
David VP
Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to
you?
Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said
to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning
those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these
notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days
later, and the questions may be in the wrong place.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please tell us how Fritz "lied" re. the note-taking issue?
Walt
There are copies of Fritz's hand scribbled notes available.....Find
them and read them, then come back here and we'll discuss them.
Walt
happy to send them to you.
Walt
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "There are copies of Fritz's hand scribbled notes available..." <<<
>
>
> "These notes and things that I have made I would have to make several
> days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place."
>
> below) were scribbled? .....
>
> http://www.jfklancer.com/docs.maps/hostynotes_LHO.gif
>
Which notes do you mean? Do you mean the notes that he denied taking or
the notes he claimed that he destroyed?
aeffects
really on top of the game, huh? oh-wee!
David VP
post....posting some Hosty notes by mistake.
Why do people insist on responding to deleted stuff? I truly do not
understand why posters do this? Weird indeed.