The .38 Smith & Wesson Pistol
curtjester1
File, by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry. The item was a full-page
Klein's advertisement from Guns And Ammo magazine, with a circle drawn
around a .38 Smith and Wesson revolver and a 6.5 mm Italian carbine.
The clear implication is that while looking through sports magazines,
Oswald found the rifle and pistol which he used to shoot President
Kennedy and officer Tippit on November 22, 1963.
During the Spanish-American War, Smith & Wesson produced 3000 .38
caliber double-action revolvers-2000 for the Navy and 1000 for the
Army. Production continued after the war and by 1942 over 1,000,000
had been manufactured. The gun was chambered for the .38 Colt long
range cartridge and was manufactured with a 4-inch barrel for the
commercial model, and a 6 1/2 inch barrel for the military model.
The cylinder held six bullets and was equipped with a center extractor
which ejected all of the hulls simultaneously. In April 1942 Smith &
Wesson began production of the Victory Model, which featured a gray
sandblast finish. The serial numbers of the Victory Model, which was
used extensively in WWII, began with the letter "V."
Smith & Wesson produced some 1,000,000 Victory Model .38's for English
and Canadian troops that ws known as a .38-200 British Service
revolver. All weapons entering England had to be proof-tested and
marked with "English proof marks" on the barrel, cylinder, and frame.
(These English proof marks were on the .38 Smith and Wesson revolver,
SN V510210, that was taken from Lee HARVEY Oswald when he was arrested
by the Dallas Police at the Texas Theater.
In the late 1940's and early 1950's millions of surplus military
rifles and pistols were imported into the United States, and Canada
and sold to sports enthusiasts. The S&W pistol take from Oswald on
November 22 was imported from Europe by Empire Wholesale Sporting
Goods, Ltd., 300 Craig Street West, Montreal 1, Quebec, Canada.
Canadian law exempted wholesalers of surplus firearms from keeping a
record of the serial numbers of weapons that were exported from
Canada. U.S. Law, however, required that importers record the serial
numbers of all weapons imported into the country.
On October 19, 1962 George Rose & Company (aka Seaport Traders), 1221
S. Grand Avenue, Los Angeles, placed an order for 500 pistols from
Empire. The guns were sent from Montreal to Century Arms, Inc. of St.
Albany, Vermont and then re-shipped to George Rose & Company in Los
Angeles on January 3, 1963. (The .38 Smith & Wesson revolver
allegedly used to kill Officer J.D. Tippit and a Mannlicher-Carcano
rifle (SN 2766) were shipped from Empire Wholesale Sporting Goods to
Century Arms. The pistol was re-shipped to George Rose & Company in
Los Angeles while the Italian rifle was shipped to Aldens in Chicago).
Before the .38 pistols were sold to the public several modifications
were made by gunsmith M.L. Johnson of 13440 Burbank Blvd. in Van Nuys,
California. The hand grips were changed,the swivel hole in the butt
of the gun was filled, the gun was re-chambered to a .38 Special (the
cylinder chambers were lengthened to accommodate the longer .38
Special cartridge as was the front of the cylinder where the tip of
the cartridge fit into the cylinder), the words "CAL. . 38 Special"
were stamped on the left side of the frame, the barrel was shortened
from 5-inch to 2 1/4-inch, and a front sight was added. In addition to
regular .38 ammunition the gun could now fire the longer (.35" longer)
and smaller diameter .38 Special cartridge.
On March 13, 1963 Seaport Traders allegedly received a coupon (from an
unknown publication) dated January 27 (year unknown) along with $10.00
cash deposit from "A.J. Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas.
The order coupon listed 19 items for sale, including a ".38 S&W Spec."
for $39.95 and a ".38 St. W. 2" Bbl." for $29.95. (A ".38 S&W Spec."
is an abbreviation for a.38 Smith & Wesson Special. The abbreviation
".38 St. W 2" is for an unknown model).
On March 20, 1963 the order from "A.J. Hidell" was allegedly filled by
Emma Vaughn at Seaport Traders. But neither Vaughn nor the Warren
Commission explained why the order was filled by subsituting the more
expensive $39.95 ".38 S.&W. Spec." for the $29.95 model that was
ordered. The pistol, known as a S&W .38 Special Commando, was
allegedly sent C.O.D. via Railway Express Agency (REA) to "Hidell" at
P.O.Box 2915 in Dallas, Texas. (A "S&W .38 Special Commando" was
never manufactured by Smith & Wesson. This name was created and used
by Seaport Traders to advertise their version of the .38-200 British
Service revolver with a shortened "2 barrel.)
Railway Express Agency Vice President Robert C. Hendon was in charge
of operations and explained the company's regulations when shipping
firearms. Hendon told the Dodd Committee, "We have always required
that shipments of small arms be handled through our moneys department
and each employee handling such shipments sign a receipt for same."
REA allegedly shipped a package to "A.J. Hidell" at P.O. Box 2915 in
Dallas, Texas, according to a copy REA receipt #70638, the original of
which was never obtained by the FBI. REA employee "Paxton" allegedly
signed the receipt on March 20, 1963.
Attached to the receipt was a C.O.D. form which alerted the REA office
in Dallas to collect the amount due to Seaport Traders ($19.95) and to
collect $1.27 for their C.O.D. charges. The amount to be collected
should have been $20.22, but the amount listed under the "Amounts to
Be Paid" on the REA form was $19.95.
Robert C. Hendon also told the Dodd Committee their regulations
required that the shipper declare the contents of the package and the
methology of delivery. On the REA copy of the express receipt the
article shipped was noted as"1 Crtn Pistol."
Companies involved in the intrastate transportation of firearms, such
as REA and Seaport Traders, are charged with the responsibility of
conforming to the laws of the various states in which they conduct
business. In 1963 Texas state law required that anyone desiring to
purchase a pistol or handgun first obtain a "certificate of good
character" from a Justice of the Peace, County Judge, or District
Judge, of the county of his residence. Seaport Traders should have
never shipped a pistol to "A.J. Hidell" or anyone in the state of
Texas without receiving a "certificate of good character." REA
offices in Texas should have withheld shipments of pistols and
handguns to any consignee who failed to display a "certificate of good
character." Failing to do so could subject REA to civil and criminal
penalties. (Klein's Sporting Goods, from whom Oswald allegedly ordered
the Italian carbine, published a notation at the bottom of
advertisements which included handguns. It read," ..... send permit
if your city or state requires."
REA issued rules and instruction to employees pertaining to the
shipment and delivery of firearms which stated:
*Employees must use their best judgment in respect to identification
and, unless fully convinced of the claimant's identity, the must
decline to make the delivery. The REA employee who allegedly released
the gun to "A. Hidell" should have asked for identification and a
"certificate of good character" before releasing the firearm.
*If consignee is an entire stranger and is unable to obtain personal
indentification, he must furnish evidence that the shipment was sent
to him-first by correctly describing the contents thereof before the
shipment is opened, which must be done in the presence of employee
effecting delivery; and, second, by surrendering shipping receipt, if
in consignee's possession. Whoever picked up the package could have
described the contents of the package, but there was no evidence that
a shipping receipt was surrendered.
* A hand-to-hand check must be made and receipts taken on form 5024 or
other approved register forms for the following described shipments.
Firearms-small pistols and revolvers. There is no evidence REA
conducted a hand-to-hand check or filled out form 5024 or another
approved registered form.
The package allegedly sent by Seaport Traders via REA to "A.J. Hidell"
in Dallas could not possibly have been delivered to P.O. Box 2915--
only the United States Post Office can deliver packages to postal
boxes. When the package arrived at the REA in Dallas they would have
notified "A.J. Hidell" by sending a postcard to P.O. Box 2915. The
date of mailing the postcard would have been noted on their
documentation, but there was no evidence that REA mailed a postcard to
"Hidell."
The package containing the pistol was allegedly picked up at the REA
Office at 515 South Houston in Dallas. Yet the REA office had no
notification card, no receipt, for the payment of C.O.D. charges, no
signed receipt for the package, no form 5024 as required, and no
record of the person who picked up the package. REA had nothing to
that showed either the identity of the individual who picked up the
package or the date of pickup.
The FBI failed to obtain proof that the payment for either the pistol
or C.O.D. charges were remitted by anyone to REA or that REA remitted
payment to Seaport Traders. If the Warren Commission or the FBI
wanted to prove the package was sent to Seaport Traders to the REA
office in Dallas they needed only to obtain REA Express bank records.
They could have easily located a deposit which corresponded to the
payment and C.O.D. charges received for the gun by REA in Dallas and
REA's remittance to Seaport. They could have checked Seaport Traders
bank records to confirm receipt of payment of REA.
With a total lack of documentation, there is no proof that "A.J.
Hidell" or Oswald, picked up a package at the REA Express office in
Dallas. The overwhelming weight of evidence suggests that Seaport
Traders did not send a pistol to "A.J. Hidell," but if a package were
sent it did not contain a firearm. (No receipts of any kind relating
to the pistol (shipping notice, invoice, notification from REA,
receipt of payment of C.O.D. charges, delivery receipt, etc.) were
found among Oswald's possessions.
Not a single person, barring the unproven claims of Marina, saw HARVEY
Oswald with a pistol, holster, or bullets during the next 9 months.
Not a single gun shop was known to have sold Oswald .38 Special
ammunition. No ammunition of any kind (.38 Special or 6.5 mm) was
found among Oswald's possessions after the assassination. (If someone
wanted to create the illusion that Oswald ordered a pistol using the
name "A.J. Hidell," they could have sent $10 in cash to Seaport
Traders and ordered a pistol or any other items. By calling the REA
shipping and receiving departments in Dallas anyone could have
determined if and when a package was scheduled to arrive. By knowing
the contents of the package, it could be picked up without any
identification.)
In the final analysis "A.J. Hidell/Oswald, or anyone else, could have
ordered the pistol from Seaport Traders and had it shipped via REA
Express to Dallas. But there is no records that anyone was notified
of its arrival, no signed receipt for the pistol, and no receipt for
C.O.D. charges. The only time the .38 Smith & Wesson, V510210, was
known to be in Oswald's possession was on November 22, 1963, at the
Texas Theater.
Marina's Knowledge of The Pistol
On November 23, 1963 the Dallas Police found two photographs of Oswald
holding a rifle with a pistol strapped to his waist in Ruth Paine's
garage. One of the photos, known as "133-A," was pictured on the
front cover of Life Magazine on February 21, 1964. Warren Commission
attorney J. Lee Rankin questioned Marina about the photo:
Mr. R - Do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you
remember?"
Marina - "He had that on Neely Street, but I think he acquired the
rifle before he acquired the pistol. The pistol I saw twice-once in
his room, and the second time when I took these photographs."
In 1978 the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) also asked
Marina about the pistol, but she was much more evasive and seemed to
have forgotten the story she told the Warren Commission:
HSCA - "Had you seen the handgun before, before you took the
photographs?
Marina- "I don't think so. I do not recall."
HSCA- "Well, do you recall if this was the first time when you were
taking the photograph that you had seen him, or that you had known
that he owned both the rifle and handgun?"
Marina - "It is possible."
Harvey and Lee pgs. 481-84
CJ
Walt
> An interesting item of evidence appeared in the book, Assassination
> File, by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry. The item was a full-page
> Klein's advertisement from Guns And Ammo magazine, with a circle drawn
> around a .38 Smith and Wesson revolver and a 6.5 mm Italian carbine.
> The clear implication is that while looking through sports magazines,
> Oswald found the rifle and pistol which he used to shoot President
> Kennedy and officer Tippit on November 22, 1963.
Initially the authorities claimed they had found this Kleins Sporting
Goods ad in Oswald's room after the assassination, and it was this ad
that led them to search the files of Klein's in Chicago. Of course
the manager at Kleins knew at a glance that the ad was from the
November 1963 issue of GUNS & AMMO and not the February 1963 issue of
The American Rifleman.
The FACT that the ad from the November issue of Guns & Ammo made it's
way into the evidence and remainded there permantly ( it appears in
Jesse Curry's book, and Gary Savage's, 1st Day Evidence, and The WC
R.) is stark proof that the authorities thought that it was evidence
against Oswald. In reality that ad had no connection to
Oswald...."someone" presented the G&A ad and the authorities took it
and ran with it before they realized that it could NOT have been the
ad that "Hidell" used to order the guns. And once it was in the
record they could not erase it,....In fact It appears that the DPD
never ever did learn or understand that the ad they had used was NOT
connected to Oswald...but WHOEVER gave them that ad on the evening of
the assassination ( a time when they didn't even know what kind of
rifle they had) KNEW that the ad depicted the guns that could be
connected to Oswald. WHO?? on the evening of the assassination,
knew that Oswald had ordered those guns from Kleins???? ...
Answer.... Harry Holmes.
curtjester1
could be with ads in a setup, yet you do like 'the other ad' that
makes Oswald the orderer, and pickerupper of the rifle. I just hope
someone like you would read about the fabrication process in this
revolver, so one could see how easily BOTH weapons had to go through a
convuluted process like they were ordered and delivered. They
weren't. And we know how Harry Holmes picked a money order out of
sequence to make it look like Oswald ordered a rifle, by two years. I
can only scratch my head at your rifle reasoning and lack of seeing it
through the 'process' for the revolver.
CJ
Bud
>
> > An interesting item of evidence appeared in the book, Assassination
> > File, by Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry. The item was a full-page
> > Klein's advertisement from Guns And Ammo magazine, with a circle drawn
> > around a .38 Smith and Wesson revolver and a 6.5 mm Italian carbine.
> > The clear implication is that while looking through sports magazines,
> > Oswald found the rifle and pistol which he used to shoot President
> > Kennedy and officer Tippit on November 22, 1963.
>
> Initially the authorities claimed they had found this Kleins Sporting
> Goods ad in Oswald's room after the assassination, and it was this ad
> that led them to search the files of Klein's in Chicago. Of course
> the manager at Kleins knew at a glance that the ad was from the
> November 1963 issue of GUNS & AMMO and not the February 1963 issue of
> The American Rifleman.
>
> The FACT that the ad from the November issue of Guns & Ammo made it's
> way into the evidence and remainded there permantly ( it appears in
> Jesse Curry's book, and Gary Savage's, 1st Day Evidence, and The WC
> R.) is stark proof that the authorities thought that it was evidence
> against Oswald. In reality that ad had no connection to
> Oswald...."someone" presented the G&A ad and the authorities took it
> and ran with it before they realized that it could NOT have been the
> ad that "Hidell" used to order the guns.
As usual, you`re retarded. Harry Holmes said in his testimony that
he had his secretary go out and buy that issue. You can see where it
got entered into evidence in section 293, here...
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm
Walt
I think you're assuming too much......You assume that the only way a
person could receive a gun through the mail ( in 1963) is if all the
I's were dotted, and all of the "T" s crossed. No doubt there were
rules and regulations that were supposed to be followed.... but
realistically, those regs weren't strigently observed.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
curtjester1
First, think if a person were to want to just have a gun, why go to
the bother of ordering it by mail. If you think LHO was a spy, or a
big planner to kill a POTUS, why get something that is going to come
back to HIM?
Second, these agencies were high end businesses that had all sorts of
regulations and monitoring's by inspector's and the threat of closing
one's doors if they didn't comply. They all had forms and employees
and documentation was their daily routine. Would you expect the clerk
at a DMV to hand over a license to you without you filling out a form
and producing some valid form of identification?
CJ
Walt
You're a very poor thinker..... Your reasoning ability is on par with
a rock.
There's no doubt that Lee Oswald was a spy.....but he certainly wasn't
one of the conspirators who plotted to murder JFK. He was used by
those plotters, and made the patsy. At the time he ordered the guns
he and De Morhenschildt were involved with Walker in a scheme to make
it appear that Oswald was a radical communist revolutionary who had
taken a shot at one of Castro's most vocal foes ( General Edwin
Walker) THAT'S when the guns were ordered....they were intended to be
easily traced to Oswald who had fled the county after the ruse at
Walker's house. Oswald had left the rifle near Walker's house after
the shot was fired with the expectation that he cops would find it and
trace it to him. The hare brained scheme didn't work as they had
planed and the cops never found the rifle.
Later when the conspirators realized how gullible Oswald was, they
decided to use him as their patsy when they murdered JFK.
>
> Second, these agencies were high end businesses that had all sorts of
> regulations and monitoring's by inspector's and the threat of closing
> one's doors if they didn't comply.
You're talking through your hat......
curtjester1
(proven), and the gun remotely could have been ordered, but most
probably wasn't because of the non-verification process that surely
would have happened. LOL, so they went back and picked up the rifle
and hid it in Oswald's closet??!! ROTF
> Later when the conspirators realized how gullible Oswald was, they
> decided to use him as their patsy when they murdered JFK.
>
>
He knew what was going on all the time, as did Marina, since they were
both in spydom. He knew he was being set up, and knew about the
assassination, but didn't quite know what happened when he got
caught. Hence, he started drastically trying to make a phone call and
see about a high end lawyer.
>
> > Second, these agencies were high end businesses that had all sorts of
> > regulations and monitoring's by inspector's and the threat of closing
> > one's doors if they didn't comply.
>
> You're talking through your hat......
>
Like you want to think you were ordering a pistol from the back page
of a comic book!! HohohoHeeheehee
CJ
Walt
If you didn't have your head in your ass, you'd know that Lee Oswald
went back and retrieved the rifle when it became clear that the cops
weren't going to find the rifle, a couple of days after the ruse at
Walker's house. He then stored it back in the closet where it remained
until George de M picked it up on Saturday evening 4 / 13 /63
ROTF
>
> > Later when the conspirators realized how gullible Oswald was, they
> > decided to use him as their patsy when they murdered JFK.
>
> He knew what was going on all the time, as did Marina, since they were
> both in spydom.
Hey Rock.....Many many spies have no knowledge of what other spies may
be doing. Simply because LHO was an intelligence agent doesn't mean
he knew the details of the plot to kill JFK. Hundreds of people had
heard that there were people conspiring to kill JFK ....that doesn't
mean they knew WHO was involved.
You're a nut.
curtjester1
Probably took it and hid in that washroom on the sixth floor, right?
Why don't you just have him handing it off to George DeM at the Walker
house, since he was his handler? You can make anything up your heart
desires, can't you see? LOL.
>
> > > Later when the conspirators realized how gullible Oswald was, they
> > > decided to use him as their patsy when they murdered JFK.
>
> > He knew what was going on all the time, as did Marina, since they were
> > both in spydom.
>
> Hey Rock.....Many many spies have no knowledge of what other spies may
> be doing. Simply because LHO was an intelligence agent doesn't mean
> he knew the details of the plot to kill JFK. Hundreds of people had
> heard that there were people conspiring to kill JFK ....that doesn't
> mean they knew WHO was involved.
>
Why not? LHO was in the middle of all the folks that were. All those
N.O. right-wingers. How would he know not to go outside when the
motorcade came? Hint: He knew there was going to be something going
on, since he was told to stay out of the way. Ever hear of Sylvia
Odio or Richard Case Nagell??!!
CJ
Gil Jesus
> As usual, you`re retarded. Harry Holmes said in his testimony that
> he had his secretary go out and buy that issue. You can see where it
> got entered into evidence in section 293, here...
>
> http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm
>
As usual, YOU'RE retarded. Holmes says nothing about Guns & Ammo.
The magazine he had his secretary buy was Field & Stream.
Mr. HOLMES. I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen
books on outdoor type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the
thought that I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.
Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?
Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.
( 7 H 294 )
idiot.
Bud
What makes you say that there is a Guns and Ammo ad in evidence?
Walt`s say so? There are two different Klein ads in Field and Stream,
the one that Oswald ordered his rifle from March, and it shows the 36"
carbine, and the one that Holmes bought in November, which showed the
T-38 40" 7 pound rifle like Oswald received. Apparently Klein`s
started shipping the 40" model before they changed the ad.
David Von Pein
The following hunk of logic never occurs to the conspiracy kooks who
want to believe that everything connected to Oswald's rifle purchase
is phony and fake:
If the whole rifle transaction was phony from the get-go, then why
wouldn't the plotters who cooked up the scheme have made sure that the
rifle's length MATCHED the ad from the magazine from which it was
ordered?
In a truly "fake" and made-up-from-whole-cloth scenario regarding the
rifle, would the conspirators have wanted to have a mis-match of rifle
lengths so that the kooks could now say what they are saying today? --
i.e., "Look! The C2766 rifle is the wrong length!"
This is just one more example (among dozens) of the built-in idiocy of
the so-called "patsy framers" in this case. Everything is supposedly
"manufactured" and planted ALL THROUGHOUT THE CASE to make it look as
though Oswald did certain things and bought certain things and shot
certain people -- but the retard plotters apparently didn't know their
asses from the hole in Tom Rossley's head.
E.G.,
1.) The brainless plotters also evidently couldn't tell "36 inches"
from "40 inches".
2.) They plant a "Mauser" in the Depository (even though the patsy
owned a Carcano).
3.) They shoot JFK from the front (even though their one and only
patsy was located in the rear).
4.) They allow their one and only patsy to wander around on the lower
floors of the Book Depository at the precise time they need him
upstairs on the sixth floor shooting at the 35th U.S. President.
(Brilliant planning and organizing here on the plotters' behalf!)
5.) They plant a bullet shell in the Sniper's Nest that could not
possibly (per the conspiracy kooks) have been fired on the day of the
assassination, due to the dented lip. And yet the retard plotters
evidently expected this "impossible" shell to go unnoticed by everyone
in officialdom.
6.) They shoot J.D. Tippit with an AUTOMATIC gun (again, per the
conspiracy kooks who will do and say anything to try and exonerate cop-
killer Oswald)....even though their patsy owns a revolver and not an
automatic.
7.) And, according to some CTers, they place into evidence a Smith &
Wesson revolver (#V510210) that could not possibly have been fired on
11/22/63, due to a bad/broken firing pin. And yet, at the same time,
these same plotters (with a combined I.Q. of a Hostess cupcake) are
attempting to make it look like Oswald DID, in fact, use that
IMPOSSIBLE-TO-FIRE gun to kill Officer Tippit by placing into evidence
four phony bullet shells from Revolver V510210.
A brilliant patsy plot all the way around, wasn't it? (Well, maybe if
the plotters were Gomer and Goober Pyle.)
Bud
> The following hunk of logic never occurs to the conspiracy kooks who
> want to believe that everything connected to Oswald's rifle purchase
> is phony and fake:
>
> If the whole rifle transaction was phony from the get-go, then why
> wouldn't the plotters who cooked up the scheme have made sure that the
> rifle's length MATCHED the ad from the magazine from which it was
> ordered?
>
> In a truly "fake" and made-up-from-whole-cloth scenario regarding the
> rifle, would the conspirators have wanted to have a mis-match of rifle
> lengths so that the kooks could now say what they are saying today? --
> i.e., "Look! The C2766 rifle is the wrong length!"
>
> This is just one more example (among dozens) of the built-in idiocy of
> the so-called "patsy framers" in this case. Everything is supposedly
> "manufactured" and planted ALL THROUGHOUT THE CASE to make it look as
> though Oswald did certain things and bought certain things and shot
> certain people -- but the retard plotters apparently didn't know their
> asses from the hole in Tom Rossley's head.
>
> E.G.,
>
> 1.) The brainless plotters also evidently couldn't tell "36 inches"
> from "40 inches".
Right, and just by sheer happenstance Klein`s just previously got a
shipment of the 40" rifle, and soon changed their ad to the 40"
version.
And then the conspiracy makes the blunder of having a Klein`s stamp
made to endorse the postal money order instead of faking a signature,
so it can be picked up on by just about the stupidest stump on the
planet.
> 2.) They plant a "Mauser" in the Depository (even though the patsy
> owned a Carcano).
And they allow the discovery to be covered by the media, because you
want the news around when you are planning to mess with evidence.
> 3.) They shoot JFK from the front (even though their one and only
> patsy was located in the rear).
And consider that the conspiracy wouldn`t know whether there were
dozen of people with movie cameras going to film at the place they
chose to do the shooting. It`s possible there could have been multiple
Zapruder films from different angles, maybe some with sound that would
catch the shots and establish them to be too close together for one
weapon.
> 4.) They allow their one and only patsy to wander around on the lower
> floors of the Book Depository at the precise time they need him
> upstairs on the sixth floor shooting at the 35th U.S. President.
> (Brilliant planning and organizing here on the plotters' behalf!)
Some put him in the lunchroom and lunchtime. Thats a good place to
insure Oswald doesn`t get an alibi, because nobody would be in a
lunchroom at lunchtime. Apparently the conspiracy did all this
planning and plotting and just hoped Oswald wouldn`t blunder into an
alibi.
> 5.) They plant a bullet shell in the Sniper's Nest that could not
> possibly (per the conspiracy kooks) have been fired on the day of the
> assassination, due to the dented lip. And yet the retard plotters
> evidently expected this "impossible" shell to go unnoticed by everyone
> in officialdom.
Yah, on one hand the conspiracy is omnipotent and brilliant, but
then inept and incompetent.
I saw recently that the ATF allowed some automatic weapons to be
smuggled in the hope that these weapons would lead to a drug cartel.
The weapons were used to kill a federal agent. This is the government
that the kooks think can perform the miracles their ideas require.
> 6.) They shoot J.D. Tippit with an AUTOMATIC gun (again, per the
> conspiracy kooks who will do and say anything to try and exonerate cop-
> killer Oswald)....even though their patsy owns a revolver and not an
> automatic.
And totally ignore that there is no evidence of any shells being
found in the vicinity of the shooting, something that would occur had
an automatic been used.
> 7.) And, according to some CTers, they place into evidence a Smith &
> Wesson revolver (#V510210) that could not possibly have been fired on
> 11/22/63, due to a bad/broken firing pin. And yet, at the same time,
> these same plotters (with a combined I.Q. of a Hostess cupcake) are
> attempting to make it look like Oswald DID, in fact, use that
> IMPOSSIBLE-TO-FIRE gun to kill Officer Tippit by placing into evidence
> four phony bullet shells from Revolver V510210.
If the gun had a broken firing pin, how could it be used to fake the
hammer strikes on the shells in evidence?
> A brilliant patsy plot all the way around, wasn't it? (Well, maybe if
> the plotters were Gomer and Goober Pyle.)
The kooks have the luxury of seeing everything as it played out,
everything is on the table, so they can play the game of steering
Oswald around the hazards to the finish line of patsyhood. But a
conspiracy beforehand would have no such knowledge, everything they
did would be flying blind.
Walt
> On Mar 5, 10:50 pm, Gil Jesus <JFK63Conspir...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 4, 8:54 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > As usual, you`re retarded. Harry Holmes said in his testimony that
> > > he had his secretary go out and buy that issue. You can see where it
> > > got entered into evidence in section 293, here...
>
> > > http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm
>
> > As usual, YOU'RE retarded. Holmes says nothing about Guns & Ammo.
> > The magazine he had his secretary buy was Field & Stream.
There are THREE different magazines involved in this discussion....
1) The February issue of The American Rifleman ( a publication printed
for the members of the NRA)
2) The November issue of Guns & Ammo
3) The November issue of Field and Stream
The ad that was used to order the rifle was the February 1963 issue of
The American Rifleman
Question:... Where did Oswald get a copy of the American Rifleman?
( LHO wasn't a member of the NRA...just something to think about)
The Dallas police said that they had found a copy of the Klein add in
Oswald's room on the afternoon of the assassination.
The Ad they had came from the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo. It
is shown on page 99 of Curry's "JFK Assassination File" It is also
shown on page 248 of Gary Savage's "JFK 1st Day Evidence".
The copy of the ad that the DPD had from G&A has the Carcano and the
pistol circled. If the ad was found in Oswald's room as they
claimed, It's highly unlikely that Oswald would have left it there, so
"someone else" knew that the rifle could be traced to Oswald by
searching the files at Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago, and presented
that ad as if it had been found in Oswald's room. The pistol was NOT
ordered from Kleins but "someone" apparently thought that it had been,
because bothe the Carcano and the S&W revolver are circled on that ad.
Postal Inspector Harry Holmes admitted that he was an FBI informant
and he had Oswald's PO box under surveillance, so very likely he knew
that the rifle had been sent to Oswald's PO box, and he knew that
Kleins had sent it. Therefore he presented the Klein ad from the
November issue of Field and Stream to the FBI to help them in their
search.
The big unanswred question is....WHERE did the DPD get the copy of the
ad from the November issue of Guns and Ammo?? Who presented it as
evidence???
>
> > Mr. HOLMES. I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen
> > books on outdoor type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the
> > thought that I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.
>
> > Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?
>
> > Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.
>
> > ( 7 H 294 )
>
> > idiot.
>
> What makes you say that there is a Guns and Ammo ad in evidence?
> Walt`s say so? There are two different Klein ads in Field and Stream,
> the one that Oswald ordered his rifle from March, and it shows the 36"
> carbine, and the one that Holmes bought in November, which showed the
> T-38 40" 7 pound rifle like Oswald received. Apparently Klein`s
> started shipping the 40" model before they changed the ad.- Hide quoted text -
David Von Pein
>>> "Question:... Where did Oswald get a copy of the American Rifleman? ( LHO wasn't a member of the NRA...just something to think about)" <<<
Oswald, the cheapskate, could have simply borrowed a magazine from
someone at work one day, ripped the ad out of it, and then given it
back to his co-worker.
There are many other ways he could have obtained a copy of the
magazine too -- found it in the trash; saw a copy of it one day at the
barber shop perhaps; or -- HERE'S A BRAINSTORM -- maybe he actually
dug down deep and purchased the magazine with his own money! (What did
it cost--35 cents or something?)
But since Oswald wasn't a member of NRA, Walt The Retard thinks it's
fishy that LHO could have acquired a copy of a rifle magazine in the
state of Texas in 1963. <belly laugh>
The kook world just got kookier.
curtjester1
> want to believe that everything connected to Oswald's rifle purchase
> is phony and fake:
>
trail.
> If the whole rifle transaction was phony from the get-go, then why
> wouldn't the plotters who cooked up the scheme have made sure that the
> rifle's length MATCHED the ad from the magazine from which it was
> ordered?
>
Ooops, he goofed again. What transaction? Ha, they were stupid
enough to have it on the INVOICE for their frameee! Well, I can see
he is off into spittle and not into the case! Exit stage left.
CJ
Bud
> On Mar 6, 3:14 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 10:50 pm, Gil Jesus <JFK63Conspir...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 4, 8:54 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > As usual, you`re retarded. Harry Holmes said in his testimony that
> > > > he had his secretary go out and buy that issue. You can see where it
> > > > got entered into evidence in section 293, here...
>
> > > > http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm
>
> > > As usual, YOU'RE retarded. Holmes says nothing about Guns & Ammo.
> > > The magazine he had his secretary buy was Field & Stream.
>
> There are THREE different magazines involved in this discussion....
>
> 1) The February issue of The American Rifleman ( a publication printed
> for the members of the NRA)
>
> 2) The November issue of Guns & Ammo
>
> 3) The November issue of Field and Stream
>
> The ad that was used to order the rifle was the February 1963 issue of
> The American Rifleman
>
> Question:... Where did Oswald get a copy of the American Rifleman?
> ( LHO wasn't a member of the NRA...just something to think about)
This guy said Oswald borrowed a gun magazine (he didn`t know which
one, but the guy was a NRA member so it could have been the American
Rifleman) when he was in New Orleans.
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10408&relPageId=208
> The Dallas police said that they had found a copy of the Klein add in
> Oswald's room on the afternoon of the assassination.
> The Ad they had came from the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo. It
> is shown on page 99 of Curry's "JFK Assassination File" It is also
> shown on page 248 of Gary Savage's "JFK 1st Day Evidence".
>
> The copy of the ad that the DPD had from G&A has the Carcano and the
> pistol circled.
Thats right here...
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/40/4098-001.gif
But where do you get that it was found in Oswald`s room from?
> If the ad was found in Oswald's room as they
> claimed, It's highly unlikely that Oswald would have left it there,
So when there is a connection from Oswald to a particular magazine
it is suspicious, and when there is no connection from Oswald to a
particular magazine that`s suspicious also.
> so
> "someone else" knew that the rifle could be traced to Oswald by
> searching the files at Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago, and presented
> that ad as if it had been found in Oswald's room. The pistol was NOT
> ordered from Kleins but "someone" apparently thought that it had been,
> because bothe the Carcano and the S&W revolver are circled on that ad.
Could have been circled post assassination as weapons of interest on
the page. As usual you just keep heaping on more complexity and more
people "in on it" all over, and your collapse under the weight of all
the things they require that you can`t show.
> Postal Inspector Harry Holmes admitted that he was an FBI informant
> and he had Oswald's PO box under surveillance,
After the assassination, right?
Walt
> On Mar 6, 9:38 am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 6, 3:14 am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 5, 10:50 pm, Gil Jesus <JFK63Conspir...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 4, 8:54 pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
> > > > > As usual, you`re retarded. Harry Holmes said in his testimony that
> > > > > he had his secretary go out and buy that issue. You can see where it
> > > > > got entered into evidence in section 293, here...
>
> > > > > http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holmes1.htm
>
> > > > As usual, YOU'RE retarded. Holmes says nothing about Guns & Ammo.
> > > > The magazine he had his secretary buy was Field & Stream.
>
> > There are THREE different magazines involved in this discussion....
>
> > 1) The February issue of The American Rifleman ( a publication printed
> > for the members of the NRA)
>
> > 2) The November issue of Guns & Ammo
>
> > 3) The November issue of Field and Stream
>
> > The ad that was used to order the rifle was the February 1963 issue of
> > The American Rifleman
>
> > Question:... Where did Oswald get a copy of the American Rifleman?
> > ( LHO wasn't a member of the NRA...just something to think about)
>
> This guy said Oswald borrowed a gun magazine (he didn`t know which
> one, but the guy was a NRA member so it could have been the American
> Rifleman) when he was in New Orleans.
DUH!!!...... The rifle was ordered in March, Oswald went to New
Orleans in April, and Alba was talking about JULY.
>
> http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=104...
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Bud
Somewhere between May and July, when Oswald was employed at Reily
Coffee. I was aware of the timeline, but you think that if you can`t
determine exactly when Oswald picked up the particular issue he
ordered from then there is nothing of value from Alba. Even though the
guy says Oswald pored over his collection of gun magazines, and Oswald
doesn`t hunt you don`t find this suspicious. Why the intense interest?
And do you think Oswald would only be intensely interested only at
this one time and this one place? Doesn`t it make sense that he would
be interested any time he came across such periodicals? And if he was
this interested that he would seek out such periodicals? It shows an
interest in rifles and rifle magazines, and both are central to the
case and evidence against Oswald. But such things don`t appear on the
radars of the types of kooks that fancy themselves investigators found
in this newsgroup.
Walt
One of the objectives of Oswald's mission in New Orleans was to find
out who was supplying the Cuban exiles with guns.... Do you suppose
his "interest" was feined?? He never showed any great interest in
guns when he was in the Marina Corps..
Walt
Hey Von Pea Brain....apparently you have a reading comprehension
problem, because I said "LHO wasn't a member of the NRA...just
something to think about)" "JUST SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT"...
Moron!
Ben Holmes
Walt says...
>
>On Mar 6, 11:29=A0am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>> On Mar 6, 11:59=A0am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Mar 6, 10:36=A0am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Mar 6, 9:38=A0am, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Mar 6, 3:14=A0am, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > On Mar 5, 10:50=A0pm, Gil Jesus <JFK63Conspir...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > On Mar 4, 8:54=A0pm, Bud <sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > > > =A0 As usual, you`re retarded. Harry Holmes said in his testi=
>mony that
>> > > > > > > he had his secretary go out and buy that issue. You can see w=
>here it
>> > > > > > > got entered into evidence in section 293, here...
>>
>>
>> > > > > > As usual, YOU'RE retarded. Holmes says nothing about Guns & Amm=
>o.
>> > > > > > The magazine he had his secretary buy was Field & Stream.
>>
>> > > > There are THREE different magazines involved in this discussion....
>>
>ted
>> > > > for the members of the NRA)
>>
>> > > > 2) The November issue of Guns & Ammo
>>
>> > > > 3) The November issue of Field and Stream
>>
> of
>> > > > The American Rifleman
>>
>> > > > Question:... Where did Oswald get a copy of the American Rifleman?
>> > > > ( LHO wasn't a member of the NRA...just something to think about)
>>
>h
>> > > one, but the guy was a NRA member so it could have been the American
>> > > Rifleman) when he was in New Orleans.
>>
>> > DUH!!!...... The rifle was ordered in March, Oswald went to New
>> > Orleans in April, and Alba was talking about JULY.
>>
>> Coffee. I was aware of the timeline, but you think that if you can`t
>> determine exactly when Oswald picked up the particular issue he
>> ordered from then there is nothing of value from Alba. Even though the
>> guy says Oswald pored over his collection of gun magazines, and Oswald
>> doesn`t hunt you don`t find this suspicious. Why the intense interest?
>
>One of the objectives of Oswald's mission in New Orleans was to find
>out who was supplying the Cuban exiles with guns.... Do you suppose
>his "interest" was feined?? He never showed any great interest in
>guns when he was in the Marina Corps..
I think you implied something other than what you meant... :)
>> And do you think Oswald would only be intensely interested only at
>> this one time and this one place? Doesn`t it make sense that he would
>> be interested any time he came across such periodicals? And if he was
>> this interested that he would seek out such periodicals? It shows an
>> interest in rifles and rifle magazines, and both are central to the
>> case and evidence against Oswald. But such things don`t appear on the
>> radars of the types of kooks that fancy themselves investigators found
>> in this newsgroup.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > > =A0http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=
>=3D104...
>>
>> > > > The Dallas police said that they had found a copy of the Klein add =
>in
>> > > > Oswald's room on the afternoon of the assassination.
>> > > > The Ad they had came from the November 1963 issue of Guns and Ammo.=
> It
>> > > > is shown on page 99 of Curry's "JFK Assassination File" =A0It is al=
>so
>> > > > shown on page 248 of Gary Savage's "JFK 1st Day Evidence".
>>
>> > > > The copy of the ad that the DPD had from G&A has the Carcano and th=
>e
>> > > > pistol circled.
>>
>> > > =A0 Thats right here...
>>
>> > > =A0http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/40/4098-001.gif
>>
>> > > =A0 But where do you get that it was found in Oswald`s room from?
>>
>> > > >=A0 If the ad was found in Oswald's room as they
>> > > > claimed, It's highly unlikely that Oswald would have left it there,
>>
>> > > =A0 So when there is a connection from Oswald to a particular magazin=
>e
>> > > it is suspicious, and when there is no connection from Oswald to a
>> > > particular magazine that`s suspicious also.
>>
>> > > > so
>> > > > "someone else" knew that the rifle could be traced to Oswald by
>> > > > searching the files at Kleins Sporting Goods in Chicago, and presen=
>ted
>> > > > that ad as if it had been found in Oswald's room. =A0The pistol was=
> NOT
>> > > > ordered from Kleins but "someone" apparently thought that it had be=
>en,
>> > > > because bothe the Carcano and the S&W revolver are circled on that =
>ad.
>>
>> > > =A0 Could have been circled post assassination as weapons of interest=
> on
>> > > the page. As usual you just keep heaping on more complexity and more
>> > > people "in on it" all over, and your collapse under the weight of all
>> > > the things they require that you can`t show.
>>
>> > > > Postal Inspector Harry Holmes admitted that he was an FBI informant
>> > > > and he had Oswald's PO box under surveillance,
>>
>> > > =A0 After the assassination, right?
>>
>> > > > so very likely he knew
>> > > > that the rifle had been sent to Oswald's PO box, and he knew that
>> > > > Kleins had sent it. =A0Therefore he presented the Klein ad from the
>> > > > November issue of Field and Stream to the FBI to help them in their
>> > > > search.
>>
>> > > > The big unanswred question is....WHERE did the DPD get the copy of =
>the
>> > > > ad from the November issue of Guns and Ammo?? =A0 Who presented it =
>as
>> > > > evidence???
>>
>> > > > > > Mr. HOLMES. I had my secretary go out and purchase about half a=
> dozen
>> > > > > > books on outdoor type magazines such as Field and Stream, with =
>the
>> > > > > > thought that I might locate this gun to identify it, and I did.
>>
>> > > > > > Mr. BELIN. You have what magazine?
>>
>> > > > > > Mr. HOLMES. Field and Stream of November 1963.
>>
>> > > > > > ( 7 H 294 )
>>
>> > > > > > idiot.
>>
>> > > > > =A0 What makes you say that there is a Guns and Ammo ad in eviden=
>ce?
>> > > > > Walt`s say so? There are two different Klein ads in Field and Str=
>eam,
>> > > > > the one that Oswald ordered his rifle from March, and it shows th=
>e 36"
>> > > > > carbine, and the one that Holmes bought in November, which showed=
> the
>> > > > > T-38 40" 7 pound rifle like Oswald received. Apparently Klein`s
>> > > > > started shipping the 40" model before they changed the ad.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
Bud
Bud
That is the retard script. Nothing is ever as it seems with Oswald,
everything is a clever ruse that only conspiracy kooks can detect.
> He never showed any great interest in
> guns when he was in the Marina Corps..
He wasn`t planning on killing anyone in the Marines.
Walt
If you were a critical thinking person ( second thought; if you could
reason at all) you would probably understand that a spy never presents
his true self, or his real objectives. Spies are chameleons .....and
Lee Oswald was a spy. Even a mentally challenged person like yourself
should be able to sift through the information and determine that Lee
Oswald was a US government agent.
Since part of his mission there in New Orleans was to find out about
the illegal training camps for the Cuban exiles, and who was supplying
them with the guns and bomb making materials, do you think he'd have
been able to report back to RFK that he had found the training camps
if he'd have walked into Carlos Bringuer's store and said..." I'm here
to find out who is supplying you Cuban's with guns and bombs, and
where your men are being trained"???
Walt
Huh??... I hope this doesn't come as a big surprise to you....But
Marines are trained to kill people. Didn't you know that?
Walt
Hey Dud.....Perhaps you should look at the "dept number" on the order
blanks in the Klein ads.
That "Dept number" was in reality a tracking number that allowed
Kleins to determine which magazine was being used to order the
mercahandize.
Field and Stream did NOT have two different ads and Oswald did NOT use
one of them to order the rifle.....
The "Dept number" on the order blank for the rifle was #358 ... And
that identifies it as being printed in the February issue of the
American Rifleman
The "Dept number" on Harry Holmes exhibit #2 is 486 and that
identifies it as being printed in the November issue of Field and
Stream
The "Dept number" on the ad in this link... http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/40/4098-001.gif
... is Dept 472, and that identifies it as being printed in the
November issue of Guns & Ammo.