Provable Lies of the Warren Commission (#15)
Ben Holmes
a rifle nor did she know that he owned a pistol.
Commission finding.--There is no evidence that Marina Oswald ever told this to
any authorities. On the afternoon of November 22, she told the police that her
husband owned a rifle and that he kept it in the garage of the Paine house in
Irving. Later, at Dallas police headquarters, she said that she could not
identify as her husband's the rifle shown her by policemen. When Marina Oswald
appeared before the Commission she was shown the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 rifle
found on the sixth floor of the Depository and identified it as the "fateful
rifle of Lee Oswald."
But unfortunately for the WCR's claim that there is no evidence for Marina ever
denying that Oswald owned a rifle, you can find it in her testimony:
Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him clean the rifle?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think you
understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for
concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything. (1H 14)
Whether she was originally lying, or started lying later - matters little. The
*fact* is that there is certainly evidence that Marina originally *was*
asserting that Oswald didn't have a rifle.
Once again, the WCR simply lied.
Walt
No, I don't think that there is evidence that Marina ever denied that
Lee "OWNED" a rifle.
The Warren Commission "CLAIMED" that she did not know that her husband
"OWNED"
a rifle.
Speculation.--Marina Oswald stated that she did not know that her
husband owned
> a rifle nor did she know that he owned a pistol.
The Warren Commission made the CLAIM that she said that in an attempt
to show that he in fact DID "OWN" a rifle. Marina knew that Lee HAD
POSSESSION of a rifle, and I suspect that she KNEW that the OWNER of
the rifle was George De Morhenschildt, but that was kept secret.
When Marina Oswald appeared before the Commission she was shown the
Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository
and identified it as the "fateful
rifle of Lee Oswald."
This is not correct......When the TSBD rifle was brought before Marina
AT Police Headquarters ( NOT THE WARREN COMMISSION) on the evening
after the assassination. She allegedly said in RUSSIAN " So this is
the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald."..... Who knows what she meant by
that??? Was it in the form of a Question?? Was it a acknowledgement
that it was Lee's rifle?? or did she mean something else?? We'll never
know because she was speaking in Russian and good ol Ruth Paine was
doing the translating.
>
> Once again, the WCR simply lied.
You can say that again....> Once again, the WCR simply lied.
Walt
Walt
Walt
Ben Holmes
>
>
>Ben Holmes wrote:
>>"Speculation.--Marina Oswald stated that she did not know that her husband owned
>> a rifle nor did she know that he owned a pistol.
>>
>>Commission finding.--There is no evidence that Marina Oswald ever told this to
>>any authorities. On the afternoon of November 22, she told the police that her
>> husband owned a rifle and that he kept it in the garage of the Paine house in
>> Irving. Later, at Dallas police headquarters, she said that she could not
>>identify as her husband's the rifle shown her by policemen. When Marina Oswald
>> appeared before the Commission she was shown the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 rifle
>> found on the sixth floor of the Depository and identified it as the "fateful
>> rifle of Lee Oswald."
>>
>>But unfortunately for the WCR's claim that there is no evidence for Marina ever
>> denying that Oswald owned a rifle, you can find it in her testimony:
>>
>> Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him clean the rifle?
>> Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think you
>> understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for
>> concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything. (1H 14)
>>
>> Whether she was originally lying, or started lying later - matters little.
>> The *fact* is that there is certainly evidence that Marina originally *was*
>> asserting that Oswald didn't have a rifle.
>
>No, I don't think that there is evidence that Marina ever denied that
>Lee "OWNED" a rifle.
>The Warren Commission "CLAIMED" that she did not know that her husband
>"OWNED" a rifle.
This is in contradiction to their own statements, quoted above.
And Marina's own words indicate that she was originally claiming not to know
anything about a rifle.
>> Speculation.--Marina Oswald stated that she did not know that her
>> husband owned a rifle nor did she know that he owned a pistol.
>
>The Warren Commission made the CLAIM that she said that in an attempt
>to show that he in fact DID "OWN" a rifle. Marina knew that Lee HAD
>POSSESSION of a rifle, and I suspect that she KNEW that the OWNER of
>the rifle was George De Morhenschildt, but that was kept secret.
>
>> When Marina Oswald appeared before the Commission she was shown the
>> Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository
>> and identified it as the "fateful rifle of Lee Oswald."
>
>This is not correct......When the TSBD rifle was brought before Marina
>AT Police Headquarters ( NOT THE WARREN COMMISSION) on the evening
>after the assassination. She allegedly said in RUSSIAN " So this is
>the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald."..... Who knows what she meant by
>that??? Was it in the form of a Question?? Was it a acknowledgement
>that it was Lee's rifle?? or did she mean something else?? We'll never
>know because she was speaking in Russian and good ol Ruth Paine was
>doing the translating.
>
>> Once again, the WCR simply lied.
>
>You can say that again....
Okay:
Walt
Hello Ben.... There is evidence that "someone' denied that Lee owned (
had possession) of a rifle. A couple of hours after the murder of JFK,
Detectives from the DPD visited the Paine house. When the cops asked
Marina if Lee had a rifle, she replied (IN RUSSIAN) that yes, Lee did
have a rifle. Ruth Paine who spoke fluent Russian, answered the
question to the Police in English...and she said "No, Lee does not have
a rifle" She had just heard Marina acknowledge that Lee DID have a
rifle but she deliberately lied when she said that Lee did not have a
rifle. Marina understood enough English that she realized immediately
that Ruth had just lied to the police. She was quite upset and
motioned the cops to follow her to the garage, and she would show them
the rifle. Ruth Paine attempted to stand in front of the blanket to
prevent Marina from seeing it, but Marina recognized the blanket which
she thought contained the rifle. And the cops found the empty blanket.
Later when they were in the police car and on the way downtown to the
Police Station, Marina confronted Ruth about the lie....She asked..."
Why did you do that? Is it that you suddenly could not understand
Russian??
Walt
Walt
Not ORIGINALLY....They do when she appeared before the Warren
Commission.... She said " I said before I had never seen it before."
She said she had never seen "IT" ( the TSBD rifle) before. This kinda
fits with her words " So this is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald?" At
the police station, where she was puzzled by the scope that was mounted
on the rifle. She said that she had seen the rifle that Lee had in
his possession in the apartment, but she didn't recall seeing a scope
on that rifle.
Walt
Not ORIGINALLY....They do when she appeared before the Warren
Commission.... She said " I said before I had never seen it before."
She said she had never seen "IT" ( the TSBD rifle) before. This kinda
fits with her words " So this is the fateful rifle of Lee Oswald?" At
the police station, where she was puzzled by the scope that was mounted
on the rifle. She said that she had seen the rifle that Lee had in
his possession in the apartment, but she didn't recall seeing a scope
on that rifle.
Walt
get on record that Marina DID say that the TSBD rifle was OWNED by her
husband. Of course she never said that...but to the unwary it APPEARS
that she acknowledged that the TSBD rifle was OWNED by Lee Oswald.
The W.C. liars wrote:....Later, at Dallas police headquarters, she said
that she could not identify as her husband's the rifle shown her by
policemen.
"She could not identify as her husband's the rifle shown her"
That's slimey lawyer talk and tricky wording......Translated it
reads...She could not IDENTIFY the TSBD rifle, as the rifle she had
seen in their apartment .
That doesn't necessarily mean that it was NOT the rifle that Lee had in
his closet in the apartment..... But Marina did not recognize it as
that rifle.
She was puzzled about the scope on the rifle....she said she had never
seen that before.
Walt
David VP
The WC didn't need Marina's confirmation to know that Oswald owned
C2766. Nor does anyone else need such a Marina confirmation in this
regard. The paper trail (in LHO's own handwriting) does that amply well.
Walt
Just last night I heard a dectective in the Jon Ramsey investigation
say "There is no way they can convict____ ( what ever the pervert's
name is) by the handwriting on the Ransom note.....because it is to
subjective.
So just what hand writing are you claiming is Lee Oswald's?
Walt
Ben Holmes
Mone of this would explain Marina's own words... where she asserted that
"I said before I had never seen it before." She didn't say that Ruth had said
that...
You are, as well, describing a scene that only two people could have correctly
described. I wouldn't trust either of them.
Ben Holmes
>
>Ben.....The motive behind the Warren Commission's blather below was to
>get on record that Marina DID say that the TSBD rifle was OWNED by her
>husband. Of course she never said that...but to the unwary it APPEARS
>that she acknowledged that the TSBD rifle was OWNED by Lee Oswald.
>
>The W.C. liars wrote:....Later, at Dallas police headquarters, she said
>that she could not identify as her husband's the rifle shown her by
>policemen.
>
>"She could not identify as her husband's the rifle shown her"
>
>That's slimey lawyer talk and tricky wording......Translated it
>reads...She could not IDENTIFY the TSBD rifle, as the rifle she had
>seen in their apartment .
You can certainly read it that way... but it's far from proof.
>That doesn't necessarily mean that it was NOT the rifle that Lee had in
>his closet in the apartment..... But Marina did not recognize it as
>that rifle.
>
>She was puzzled about the scope on the rifle....she said she had never
>seen that before.
>
>Walt
Sorry Walt... that's just far too much speculation for me. This is really
simple... did Marina at any time deny that LHO owned, or that she knew that he
owned, a rifle.
The facts are rather clear that she *DID*.
The WCR lied.
Furthermore, the WC knew quite well that Marina gave contradictory testimony on
a wide range of topics...
Walt
Ben Holmes wrote:
>
>
>
> Mone of this would explain Marina's own words... where she asserted that
> "I said before I had never seen it before." She didn't say that Ruth had said
> that...
>
> You are, as well, describing a scene that only two people could have correctly
> described. I wouldn't trust either of them.
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think
you
understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for
concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything. (1H 14)
Ben....read that very carefully.....It's obvious that Marina is
frightened and has been threatened with being charged as an accessory
to murder . She was willing to say whatever they wanted her to say.
She seems to be acknowledging that she had previously denied that she
had ever seen the TSBD rifle. Then she says... "I think you will
understand ( why I wasn't completely truthful) Then she plainly says
"I WANT TO HELP YOU".... ( I'll say whatever you want me to say)
I hope you will continue the dialog .....I believe we both might
benefit from an honest exchange of thoughts.... I don't want to get
into the... "Yes you did"...."No I didn't"... kind of crap.... And I
don't believe you do either. So keep postin, and perhaps we will both
learn something.
Walt
Walt
True the W.C. lawyers were a pack of liars....No doubt about it. And
Yes Marina did give conflicting testimony on many topics..... What was
her motive?? I believe the Intelligence agent, Pricella McMillan, who
was at Marina's elbow from January of 64 through the closing of the
hearings, "guided" and controlled her, and told her what to say to the
W.C. Lawyers.
Walt
tomnln
See page 250 of Dr. John Lattimer's book "Lincoln and Kennedy".
John Lattimer OWNED the M-C Rifle with serial number 2766.
I scanned that page of Lattimer's book and can be found HERE>>>>
http://whokilledjfk.net/Lattimer.htm
Your Comments Please??
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1155923437.6...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
David VP
Nowhere on that page does Lattimer claim he owned the SAME CE139 rifle.
He mentions the serial number "C2766". But that is obviously an error,
however, because the WC determined there were NOT two MC rifles with
that same serial number. But the other comments made by Lattimer on
that same page indicate he's obviously NOT talking about the SAME
weapon as Oswald's MC (CE139).
Naturally, a kook overlooks all the other remarks (like "exactly as on
the rifle from the same lot, WC Exhibit 139...") that clearly indicate
Lattimer's rifle was NOT the exact same rifle as CE139.
Plus -- Only an outright idiot/kook could possibly think that Lattimer
ACTUALLY meant that he (Lattimer) owned the SAME rifle as CE139, which
resides in the National Archives.
But, then again, a CT-Kook will believe anything I guess. (As long as
it can lead to something that smells fishy.)
Ben Holmes
>
>
>Ben Holmes wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Mone of this would explain Marina's own words... where she asserted that
>>"I said before I had never seen it before." She didn't say that Ruth had said
>> that...
>>
>>You are, as well, describing a scene that only two people could have correctly
>> described. I wouldn't trust either of them.
>
>Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before. But I think
>you
>understand. I want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for
>concealing anything. I will not be charged with anything. (1H 14)
>
>Ben....read that very carefully.....It's obvious that Marina is
>frightened and has been threatened with being charged as an accessory
>to murder .
You're going deeper than I have any need to do. I *know* she was coerced and
threatened. That's simply a done deal...
I'm interested here in proving that the WC simply lied.
And amused that no LNT'er has been able to refute any of them...
Anthony Marsh
>>>> "John Lattimer OWNED the M-C Rifle with serial number 2766." <<<
>
> Nowhere on that page does Lattimer claim he owned the SAME CE139 rifle.
> He mentions the serial number "C2766". But that is obviously an error,
That's the polite way of saying that he lied.
> however, because the WC determined there were NOT two MC rifles with
> that same serial number. But the other comments made by Lattimer on
No, that is not exactly what the WC determined. There could be several
M-C rifles with the same serial number. There were several factories and
several models.
> that same page indicate he's obviously NOT talking about the SAME
> weapon as Oswald's MC (CE139).
>
> Naturally, a kook overlooks all the other remarks (like "exactly as on
> the rifle from the same lot, WC Exhibit 139...") that clearly indicate
> Lattimer's rifle was NOT the exact same rifle as CE139.
>
No, Lattimer is trying to claim that his test rifle is as identical to
Oswald's as possible. Then again he may not even know the difference
between a carbine and a short rifle.
tomnln
Volume I page 79. Marina
Volume I page 410. Robert
"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
news:ec56c...@drn.newsguy.com...
tomnln
Titled LATTIMER.
I also refer you to the Book "The Gun" by Bloomgarten.
"David VP" <davev...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1155932206.1...@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com...
Walt
Walt wrote:
> David VP wrote:
> > The WC didn't need Marina's confirmation to know that Oswald owned
> > C2766. Nor does anyone else need such a Marina confirmation in this
> > regard. The paper trail (in LHO's own handwriting) does that amply well.
>
>
>
> What hand writing are you claiming is Lee Oswald's?
>
> Walt
cdddraftsman
Bud
Ben Holmes wrote:
> "Speculation.--Marina Oswald stated that she did not know that her husband owned
> a rifle nor did she know that he owned a pistol.
>
> Commission finding.--There is no evidence that Marina Oswald ever told this to
> any authorities. On the afternoon of November 22, she told the police that her
> husband owned a rifle and that he kept it in the garage of the Paine house in
> Irving. Later, at Dallas police headquarters, she said that she could not
> identify as her husband's the rifle shown her by policemen. When Marina Oswald
> appeared before the Commission she was shown the Mannlicher-Carcano 6.5 rifle
> found on the sixth floor of the Depository and identified it as the "fateful
> rifle of Lee Oswald."
>
> But unfortunately for the WCR's claim that there is no evidence for Marina ever
> denying that Oswald owned a rifle, you can find it in her testimony:
>
> Mr. RANKIN. Did you ever see him clean the rifle?
> Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. I said before I had never seen it before.
The "it" she could be referring to could be the act of seeing Oz
clean his rifle. You know, what she was specifically asked about.
Stupid ass.