Klein's Receives 100 Rifles On February 21, 1963 ( 36" or 40" MC)
curtjester1
We have no learned there was nothing in the documents from the
*Elletra Fascio*, the Harborside Terminal Warehouse, Fred Rupp, North
Penn, nor Lifschultz that showed a 40-inch Italian rifle, serial
number C2766, was delivered to Klein's in February 1963. According to
Fred Rupp, the shipment of T-38" rifles he serviced in the fall of
1962 were 36-inch rifles.
JFK researchers have long wondered how Klein's could have shipped a
*40-inch* Italian rifle to "A.Hidell", when the only Mannlicher-
Carcanos they offered for sale in early 1963 *were **36-inch**
rifles.* We will now review the shipping documents the FBI gave to
the WC to see if they offer a clue as to the length of the rifles
delievered to Klein's in February.
After servicing the rifles Fred Rupp re-packed each rifle in a
cardboard box and then put 10 of the boxes into a larger cardboard
carton for shipment to Klein's. North Penn Transfer and Lifschultz
transported the 10 cartons of rifles which weighed, according to the
bills of lading, a total of 750 pounds. Therefore each of the 100
rifles, *including packing materials*, weighed no more than 7.5
pounds.
According to the FBI a *40-inch* Mannlicher-Carcano weighs ***7
pounds, 11 ounces***. Ten cartons (100 rifles) of ***40-inch
rifles*** (7 lbs, 11 oz. each) and 110 cardboard cartons would weigh
over 800 pounds, which is *far in excess of the 750 pounds recorded on
the North Penn and Lifschultz bills of lading.*
According to the FBI a *36-inch* Mannlicher-Carcano weighs between 6
lbs. 8 1/2 ounces (91/24 TS) and 7 lbs (Model 38). Ten cartons of
(100 rifles) of *36-inch* rifles (6.5-7 lbs each) and 110 cardboard
cartons would weigh between 705 and 750 pounds-*precisely the weight
listed on North Penn Transfer and Lifschultz Fast Freight bills of
lading.*
*It is therefore almost certain that Fred Rupp shipped 10 cartons of
36-inch Italian carbine rifles to Kleins' via North Penn Transfer and
Lifschultz Fast Freight in February, 1963. These *36-inch* rifles are
consistent with Klein's order for 400 Model 91TS rifles, consistent
with their advertisements in early 1963, consistent with the "T"
designations gien to the Model "38 E" by Crescent which Fred Rupp
identified as the *36-inch* rifles, *not identified by carton or
serial number*, arrived at the Klein's receiving department on
February 21, 1963. *The **40-inch** Mannlicher Carcano later found on
the 6th floor of the Book Depository, serial number C2766, was not
among them.**
***NOTE*** It appears as though the carton numbers (and probably the
serial numbers) listed on the Harborside Warehouse, Fred Rupps', North
Penn, and Lifschultz documents were removed by the FBI prior to giving
them tothe Warren Commission so that none of the rifles could be
identified. **Neither the FBI nor the WC sought to locate the
Mannlicher-Carcano rifle, serial number C2766, which Crescent Firearms
sold to Kleins' on June 18, 1962.**
A 4-Power Scope Is Mounted On 36" Mannlicher-Carcano Rifles
The 40-inch Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on the 6th floor of the
TSBD by Dallas Police was equipped with a 4-power Japanese scope.
The idea of mounting a 4-power Japanese scope onto surplus 6.5 mm M-C
carbines originated with Klein's employee Mitchell Westra. The scope
was manufactured in Japan but stamped with the name of the company
that manufactured mounts for the scope, Ordinance Optics, Inc., of
Hollywood, Calif. Westra was not interviewed by the Warren
Commission, but told the House Select Committee on Assassinations
(HSCA), "*Klein's would not have mounted scopes on 40-inch Mannlicher-
Carcanos.*
William Sharp was Klein's in-house gunsmith and was the man who
actually mounted the scope and bracket onto the rifles. The scope
could not be mounted directly over the rifle barrel, like most scopes,
because the ammunition clip had to be loaded into the gun from the
top. The scope had to be offset and a special mounting bracket was
needed to position the scope above and to the left of the center of
the barrel. Sharp was never interviewed by the WC, but in 1978 was
asked by the HSCA, "Did you mount scopes on the 40.2 inch rifle"?
Sharp answereed, "*The particular package deal Klein's was trying to
market was a 36-inch carbine with a 4-power scope."*
The magazine from which Oswald *allegedly* clipped the order coupon
and purchased the mail order rifle was the February 1963 issue of
*American Rifleman*. In this issue Klein's offered "only 36-inch
Mannlicher-Carcano carbines*, with or without the 4-powere Japanese
scope (*The 40-inch Mannlicher-Carcano was not advertised for sale
until April, 1963).*
***NOTE*** The Commission interviewed neither the Klein's employee who
came up with the idea of mounting scopes on the Mannlicher-Carcano nor
the man who mounted the scopes, ** because both men knew that Klein's
was trying to market the 36-inch rifles with scopes.**
End.
Pg. 459
When shown a photograph of Lee HARVEY Oswald, Ryder (Dwayne Dial) said
that he associated Oswald's picture with that of an individual who
brought in an Argentine made rifle about two weeks ago and had a scope
attached to the gun. But Ryder explained that an Argentine rifle has
a different bolt assembly than the gun found on the 6th floor of the
TSBD. *The FBI neither asked Ryder for the name and address of the
man who brought in the Argentine rifle, nor did they review the shop's
repair tickets, nor did they make any attempts to learn if the
individual ever existed.* ***NOTE** The owner of the Irving Sports
Shop, Mr. Charles W. Greene, telephoned all of the Oswalds listed in
the Dallas and Irving telephone directories in an attempt to locate
the "Oswald" listed on repair ticket 18374, but was unsuccessful.
Oswald At The Sports Drome Shooting Range
http://www.jfk-online.com/oswaldrifle.html
Here are interviews of people who had associated with LEE Oswald
(probably) on the range. Interests are his having a fancy scope on
his rifle from a nearby town for $18, and his superior prowess on the
range, with some of their dealings with him, and their opinion of
'his' rifle vs. the one found in the TSBD. Also in Harvey and Lee,
there are differing records of Harvey and Lee shooting on the range,
and I believe they had to suppress one. (Can't locate it in the
book). The gist was that LEE was an extremely good shot and shot in
the 230's for his score compared with the lesser outcomes for HARVEY
that are more noted in the research community.
CJ
Gil Jesus
> The magazine from which Oswald *allegedly* clipped the order coupon
> and purchased the mail order rifle was the February 1963 issue of
> *American Rifleman*. �In this issue Klein's offered "only 36-inch
> scope (*The 40-inch Mannlicher-Carcano was not advertised for sale
> until April, 1963).*
The significance of this is of course, staggering. According to this
information, the Oswald rifle was a 36-inch MC, while the MC found on
the sixth floor was a 40-inch weapon. This is probably the reason why
the WC printed the ad of the 40-inch Carcano to match the rifle found,
instead of the rifle Oswald owned. Because there was a discrepancy in
size.
Good post CJ
YoHarvey
Notice how our ever vigilant pathological liar uses the word
PROBABLY? CT's have done this for 44 years. It's "probably" this.
It's "probably" that. LHO "probably" didn't shoot JFK. The WR is
"probably" a lie. Chicojesus/Robcap ALWAYS covers his ass by using
"probably". He obviously does no research. He's "probably" not
capable of it. Is Chico/Jesus "probably" an idiot? I believe he
"probably" is.
Gil Jesus
THE 25 RULES OF DISINFORMATION
RULE # 5. SIDETRACK OPPONENTS WITH INSULTS. This is also
known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods
qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with
unpopular titles such as "kooks", "right-wing", "liberal", "left-
wing", "terrorists", "conspiracy buffs", "radicals", "militia",
"racists", "religious fanatics", "sexual deviates", and so forth.
This
makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same
label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
curtjester1
Was this guy in the limo with a 360 degree neck?
CJ
Gil Jesus
> Was this guy in the limo with a 360 degree neck?
>
> CJ-
YoHOMO's neck is usually up his arse.
YoHarvey
See how I absolutely intimidate Chico Jesus! Now he's using "usually"
rather than "probably". roflmao. Have I mentioned how he lacks
creativity? Of course, he prefers "young" boys...he can intimidate
them. Just as his daddy did.
Walt
DAMNIT!!....HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO GO AROUND ON THIS MERRY -GO-
ROUND BEFORE YOU CATCH THE BRASS RING??
I've went back and cut a post from back in November....... I believe
it lays out you argument that the shipment.
You are making a common mistake.... You are mistaking the ..TARE ..
weight for the.. GROSS... weight.
TARE --- An allowance made TO A BUYER of goods by DEDUCTING from the
GROSS weight of his purchase the weight of the container.
In other words you don't ADD the weight of the container ( cartons,
crate ) to the weight of 100 rifles ( approx 750 lbs)
The BUYER pays for the weight of the merchandise he does NOT pay for
the weight of the contaner.
The weight listed on the bill of lading ( see link) is the TARE
weight. That weight is the weight of 100, 40 inch, model 38
Mannlicher Carcano SHORT RIFLES which weigh 7.5 pounds EACH.
Walt
"The Shipping Invoice, as completed by Lipschultz Fast Freight, (the
shipping company), indicates a total weight for the shipment as
having
been 750 pounds.
With 10 crates/cartons, this would equate to a weight of 75 pounds
per
carton.
Therefore, 10 of whatever rifle was shipped, plus the weight of the
shipping carton/crate/package which Crescent Firearms packed the 10
weapons in, weighed in at an even 75 pounds.
For verification that this weight is accurate please go here:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_...
Unloaded weight for the 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 Short Rifle (40.2 inch
length) is 7.6279 pounds per rifle. Therefore, 10 of these weapons,
by
themselves, without any shipping carton or crate, would weigh in at
76.279 pounds.
And, 100 of these weapons alone, without the weight of the shipping
crates/cartons, would weigh in at 762.79 pounds. 12.79 pounds more
than was the total shipping weight of 750 pounds which included the
rifles and the cartons/crates/containers in which the rifles were
packed.
However, the unloaded weight of the 6.5mm Carcano M91/38 TS Carbine
(36 inch length) is 7.0988 pounds per weapon. 10 rifles would equate
to 70.988 pounds, and 100 of these rifles would equate to a weight of
709.88 pounds of actual rifle.
Thereby leaving approximately 40.12 pounds of weight for the shipping
cartons/crates/containers. Or, a weight of 4.012 pounds of weight for
each of the 10 cartons in which the weapons were shipped.
Based upon the independent and seperate weighing of the weapons and
their carton/crate/container, by an independent third party,
(Lifschultz Freight), these 100 weapons could not have been the 6.5mm
Carcano M91/38 Short Rifle, as the weight of the rifles alone would
have exceeded the total shipping weight of the rifles and cartons/
crates/containers as determined by the shipping company and billed to
and paid by Klein's Sporting Goods.
Martin Shackelford
Ralston.
Ross detailed the evidence for the 36 in. rifle, as well as the strong case
that
Oswald entered the lunchroom from the second floor office area, not from the
stairway.
Martin
"Gil Jesus" <gjj...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:40ef315e-6f14-496d...@j78g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> The magazine from which Oswald *allegedly* clipped the order coupon
> and purchased the mail order rifle was the February 1963 issue of
> *American Rifleman*. ?In this issue Klein's offered "only 36-inch
Martin Shackelford
Martin
"YoHarvey" <bail...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:391e35a6-6884-44e5...@e4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 19, 2:14 pm, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
> > The magazine from which Oswald *allegedly* clipped the order coupon
> > and purchased the mail order rifle was the February 1963 issue of
> > *American Rifleman*. ?In this issue Klein's offered "only 36-inch
Walt
> This was discussed in the 70s in a fine book, History's Verdict by Ross
> Ralston.
> Ross detailed the evidence for the 36 in. rifle, as well as the strong case
> that
> Oswald entered the lunchroom from the second floor office area, not from the
> stairway.
>
> Martin
Martin.... Using the evidence before us, we can reach a solid
irrefutable conclusion about the make and model of the rifle that was
shipped to Alex Hidell at PO Box 2825 dallas in February of 1963.
I'm not going to waste my time and go into every detail and write a
book about something that is so elementary. I'm well aware that the
TEXT of the Klein ad specified a 36 inch Italian carbine that weighed
5 1/2 pounds. While the illustration accompanying that ad showed a
40
inch Mannlicher Carcano rifle with bottom sling swivels.
LOOK UP THE MEANING OF ...TARE WEIGHT
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh21/pages/WH_Vol21_...
When we LOOK at the bill of lading (see link above) for the shipment
of rifles, we can see that TARE weight for the shipment of 100 rifles
was 750 pounds. (The GROSS weight of 795 lbs can be seen on the left
hand side of the BOL) Since Kleins would have paid the freight on the
rifles only, and they would NOT have paid for the weight of any boxes
or crates the rifles were in, we can know that each rifle in that
shipment weighed 7.5 pounds. Which is the weight of a Model 38 40 inch
long Mannlicher Carcano Short Rifle.
Using the Klein ad as base..... If the rifles in that shipment had
been 36 inch Italian Carbines that weighed 5.5 lbs.the TARE weight of
the shipment would have been 550 pounds. And the GROSS weight would
have been 595 lbs.
Isn't it time that we CT's discard some of the old garbage and move
forward?? If we continue to ride a damned Merry - go - round we'll
get nowhere....only dizzy. And there's enough "dizzy" dopes in our
ranks already.
Walt
>
> "Gil Jesus" <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote in message
bigdog
You ignore the possibility that the shipment contained a mix of 36 and
40 inch rifles which changes the math completely. Klein's bought these
surplus rifles in bulk and I doubt they bothered to measure everyone
of them to determine exactly what they received. They had a shipment
of 100 rifles which they figured to resell. Did they really care
whether they were 36 or 40 inches long. Would Oswald have cared? Do
you think he even bothered to measure the rifle. He got what he
wanted. A deadly weapon at a bargain basement price.
I am making an educated guess that Oswald believed he had a 36 inch
rifle which is why he made the rifle bag only 38 inches long. When he
got the bag home on Thursday night, this may have been when he
discovered he hadn't received what he thought he ordered. At that
point, returning it to Klein's for an exchange was not an option so he
decided to break the weapon down to fit in the bag. Just a theory, but
one that I believe makes sense.
Walt
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, I guess there is a possibility that the rifles could have been a
mixture of Short rifles and carbines. Without doing a through
investigation I can only say that's it "MAY" be possible.
HOWEVER.... The rifle in the Klein illustration is a 40 inch long
rifle. That's easy enough to verify by knowing that the trigger
guard / magazine is the same unit on ALL models of Mannlicher
Carcanos. That trigger guard / magazine is 6 5/8" ( 6.625") long.
So you can use that as a scale to determine the length of the rifle in
the illustration, Or you can use the scope which is 11 1/4 inches long
as a scale.
You can use these same objects in the BY photos to determine the
length of the rifle.
This isn't rocket science...It's elementary ratio and proportion, that
you should have learned in the 5th grade.
Walt
No they probably weren't too concerned about the length or weight of
the guns they advertised and sold. They surely would have wanted to
make them as appealing as possible in their ads. Short length, and
light weight, rifles are two characteristics that are important to
hunters, who want a fast handling rifle in brush, and light weight for
carrying in the field. Therefore Kleins advertised a short, (36")
light weight (5 1/2 lbs) gun.
Would Oswald have cared? Do
> you think he even bothered to measure the rifle. He got what he
> wanted. A deadly weapon at a bargain basement price.
>
> I am making an educated guess that Oswald believed he had a 36 inch
> rifle which is why he made the rifle bag only 38 inches long. When he
> got the bag home on Thursday night, this may have been when he
> discovered he hadn't received what he thought he ordered. At that
> point, returning it to Klein's for an exchange was not an option so he
> decided to break the weapon down to fit in the bag. Just a theory, but
curtjester1
>
> - Show quoted text -
The thing is, there is no evidence that Oswald ordered it. The 40
inch couldn't have been ordered when Oswald was even purported to have
ordered it. All the evidence points to that the rifle was ordered in
the spring or summer of 1963, from N.O from a magazine in Alba's
garage when TSBD Oswald wasn't in that city. What is evidence is that
they had to fabricate all sorts of paper trails to implicate Oswald,
and they have been unmasked.
CJ
curtjester1
that, but do you think that if the tare weight were consider, would
the heavier by a poung I think of the 40" been able to be possibly
still considered? I would have to look it up, as Armstrong went into
a lot of depth (without tare weight consideration), and I think there
was something like a 50-60 lb difference in the rifles if a 100 count
lot was considered.
CJ
> and paid by Klein's Sporting Goods.- Hide quoted text -
bigdog
>
> - Show quoted text -
Get your facts straight. The rifle was ordered on March 13 using a
coupon in an ad placed in the February issue of American Rifleman. He
could have found that ad anywhere at anytime from January to March. In
any case the order contained a shipping address of a Dallas PO Box to
someone named A. Hiddell. When arrested, Oswald was carrying a phoney
ID card with the name Alek Hiddell. Amazing coincidence. No evidence
was fabricated against Oswald. The fabrication is by you. The order
form, the money order, and the PO Box application were all identified
as being in Oswald's writing. Also amazing is that the rifle you want
to claim Oswald didn't order would show up 8 months later in a
building he worked at with his palm print on it and fibers matching
the shirt he was wearing on the day it was found. Only in the fantasy
world of an anybody-but-Oswald CT would this not constitute proof that
Oswald order and received the rifle in question. The mental gymnastics
you guys will perform in order to deny Oswald's guilt are just plain
silly.
bigdog
ago you were using Howard Brennan's description of the rifle he saw as
being a hunting rifle to claim it couldn't have been the Mannlicher-
Carcano. So two weeks ago it wasn't a hunting rifle, but now it is a
hunting rifle. Shemp, it's amazing how you can change your tune to
suit whatever silly argument you want to make at the time. You really
should keep a better record of the fairy tales you dream up so you
don't shoot yourself in the foot like you just did.
Walt
If you use the actual factory weight of a MC carbine (6.6 lbs) then
of course the weight of 100 rifles would have been 660 lbs. The Gross
shipping weight would have approximately 705 pounds. ( based on the 45
pound difference in between the TARE weight and the Gross weight on
Lipshutz invoice)
If you use the 5 1/2 lb weight given in the Klein the the TARE weight
of the shipment would have been 550 lbs and the gross weight would
have been 595 lbs. ( There is no Mannlicher Carcano that weighs only 5
1/2 lbs.)
There's no doubt in my mind that the rifles tha Kleins received and
sold were 40 inch 7 1/2 pound Carcanos.
I really don't know how you can continue to deny that Oswald Ordered
the rifle in Feb of 1963.... His hand writing is on the envelope and
the money order. HOWEVER..... He was working with George de
Morhenschildt and Mike Paine at that time so there is no way to know
that he didn't actually order the rifle for De Morhenschildt. Since he
didn't have any money to spare it seems that De M probably bought the
Money order.
Simply because Oswald had a Carcano in his possession in March of 63
does NOT mean that it was actually his rifle.
Furthermore there is at least two Carcanos involved during the period
when Oswald lived on Neeley street...Because the ONLT authentic photo
( CE 133A) that Marina snapped of Lee shows the rifle in his hands has
bottom sling swivels. Wheras the fake photos CE 133B and 133c show a
rifle with side swivels like the TSBD rifle.
Walt
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Walt
DUH.... There are thousands of military rifles that have been
sporterized and made into hunting rifles. The simplest conversations
are just a matter of removing some of the wooden parts that are found
on military rifles. Arnold Rowland said the gunman had a hunting
rifle with a large scope on it in his hands ... He didn't say the man
had a military rifle like a Mannlicher Carcano. Howard Brennan said
he could see "all of the barrel from the muzzle all the way back to
the mans hand" He was describing a hunting rifle.
Shemp, it's amazing how you can change your tune to
> suit whatever silly argument you want to make at the time. You really
> should keep a better record of the fairy tales you dream up so you
> don't shoot yourself in the foot like you just did.- Hide quoted text -
bigdog
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Keep dancing, Shemp. It's quite entertaining to watch. Face it. You
stepped right into it. You suggested Klein's wanted to market the MCs
as hunting rifles after claiming Brennan's description of a hunting
rifle precluded it being an MC. You are so totally head fucked I'm
sure this actually makes sense to you. Admit it. You just plain fucked
up.
Walt
I know that the order blank coupon did in fact come from the FEB issue
of American rifleman, no doubt about it because it has Dept 358 on it
which identifies the magazine it came from.
HOWEVER the page that the Warren Commission used as evidence came from
the Nov issue of Guns & Ammo. The DPD claimed that they had found
that page from the Nov issue of Guns &ammo among Oswald's possessions
at the rooming house. And the Carcano rifle and the .38 S&W pistol are
both circled in that Klein ad.
The FACT that the DPD presented a page from the Nov issue of Guns and
Ammo to the W.C. as evidence against Oswald is just one more easily
proven examples of the cops framing Oswald.
He
> could have found that ad anywhere at anytime from January to March. In
> any case the order contained a shipping address of a Dallas PO Box to
> someone named A. Hiddell. When arrested, Oswald was carrying a phoney
> ID card with the name Alek Hiddell. Amazing coincidence.
There are a lot of "amazing coincidences" .... For example how did
Ruth Paine know that Oswald had received a rifle on March 20 ?? On
her personal appointment and reminder calendar for the month of March
1963 she made a note that read..."LHO purchase rifle" for the date
March 29 1963. She told the W.C. she had no knowledge of Oswald
having a rifle.
No evidence
> was fabricated against Oswald. The fabrication is by you. The order
> form, the money order, and the PO Box application were all identified
> as being in Oswald's writing. Also amazing is that the rifle you want
> to claim Oswald didn't order would show up 8 months later in a
> building he worked at with his palm print on it and fibers matching
> the shirt he was wearing on the day it was found. Only in the fantasy
> world of an anybody-but-Oswald CT would this not constitute proof that
> Oswald order and received the rifle in question. The ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Martin Shackelford
accuse me of being a LNer. Apparently I discard some of their cherished
garbage.
Martin
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:2911b699-cda2-4057...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On 20 Jan, 00:12, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> This was discussed in the 70s in a fine book, History's Verdict by Ross
>> Ralston.
>> Ross detailed the evidence for the 36 in. rifle, as well as the strong
>> case
>> that
>> Oswald entered the lunchroom from the second floor office area, not from
>> the
>> stairway.
>>
>> Martin
>
> Martin.... Using the evidence before us we can reach a solid
> irrefutalble conclusion about the make and model of the rifle that was
> shipped to Alex Hidell at PO Box 2825 dallas in February of 1963.
>
> I'm not going to waste my time and go into every detail and write a
> book about something that is so elementary. I'm well aware that the
> TEXT of the Klein ad specified a 36 inch Italian carbine that weighed
> 5 1/2 pounds. While the illustration accompanying that ad showed a 40
> inch Mannlicher Carcano rifle with bottom sling swivels.
>
> When we go to the bill of lading for the shipment of rifles we can see
> that TARE weight for the shipment of 100 rifles was 750 pounds. Since
> Kleins would have paid the freight on the rifles only and they would
> not have paid for the weight of any boxes or crates the rifles were in
> we can know that each rifle in that shipment weighed 7.5 pounds.
> Which is the weight of a Model 38 40 inch long Mannlicher Carcano
> Short Rifle.
>
> Using the Klein ad as base..... If the rifles in that shipment had
> been 36 inch Italian Carbines that weighed 5.5 lbs.the weight of the
> shipment would have been 550 pounds.
>
> Isn't it time that we CT's discard some of the old garbage and move
> forward?? It's self evident that if we continue going around on the
> Merry -go -round all we're going to do is get dizzy. Unfortunatly
> there are already way too many "dizzy" clowns who call themselves
> CTs.
>
>
>
>>
>> "Gil Jesus" <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote in message
Walt
> Gee, Walt, when I talk about discarding old garbage, the yahoo CTs here
> accuse me of being a LNer. Apparently I discard some of their cherished
> garbage.
>
> Martin
Martin, I can understand why some folks would think that you're
wearing a disguise. That you pretend to be a CT when you're actions
indicate that you're a LNer.... I've noticed it myself. For
example you deny with absolute certainty that the guy on the TSBD
steps in the Altgen's photo, is Oswald. You nor anybody else can say
with absolute certainty that the man is or is not Oswald. Why you
put yer neck in a noose like that yer sure ta get choked....
Walt
>
> "Walt" <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote in message
> >> Good post CJ- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Nope.... I'm not changin my tune, I'm whistling the same refrain I've
always whistled
If yer too ignorant to know that tens of thousands of military rifles
have been converted to sporting arms, that's your problem. It's a
shame that you would expose yer ignorance cuz you lose credibility
when you demonstrate that you aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Walt
>
>
>
> > suit whatever silly argument you want to make at the time. You really
> > should keep a better record of the fairy tales you dream up so you
> > don't shoot yourself in the foot like you just did.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
tomnln
curtjester1
so that in itself would make the weight over the 750 lbs recorded on
the invoice.
The 36 inch weighed between 6 lbs 8.5 oz and 7 lbs depending whether
it was a 91/24 TS or the Model 38.
The money order was not signed by Oswald as the number was taken out
of a stack of money orders so one could be created. The sequence in
which it was taken would have placed the money order if it had come up
in probable sequence would have come up in 1964 or 1965. They had to
get a trail of liars from Kleins to Harry Holmes to the FBI folk. The
planted order forms they found at the Paines when researched properly
came from the summer of 1963 issue of American Rifleman. There is no
proof that Klein's even sent the rifle.
CJ
bigdog
Christ alfuckingmighty. Here we go again. Anyone who says anything
that incriminates Oswald is a liar. Now it is the the folks at
Klein's. You stupid fucking asshole. It is obvious there are a lot
more than just Three Stooges on ACJ.
Walt
Disreguarding yer obvious lack of vocabulary.....which necessitates
your use of crude languge, I'll simply point out to you once again
that tens of thousands of military rifles have been converted to
sporting arms. Depending on what kind of game the hunter is planning
to hunt he may choose a smaller bore rifle like a .223 or a larger
bore like a 8mm. There are military rifles, and hunting rifles, made
in both calibers so buying a surplus military rifle and converting it
to a hunting rifle can save a hunter some money. If a hunter is
planning to hunt whitetail deer in bushy country the 36 inch
Mannlicher Carcano carbine Italian Army rifle is easily converted to a
sporting rifle by simply removing the hand guard and cutting off the
front of the foregrip. The short light weapon would wok well where
the rifle has to be aimed and fired quickly. On the other hand a
heavier longer rifle of larger caliber, like an 8mm Mauser would be
better suited to hunting Mule deer in open country where the prey
might by as far as a thousand yards away.
The point is the rifle that Rowland and Brennan saw appeared to be a
hunting rifle and NOT a military rifle.
On that note I strongly suspect that the rifle Brennan and Rowland saw
in the hands of the white clothing clad gunman was a customized 6.5mm
Mannlicher Carcano 36 inch carbine. The CIA had ordered Murrow to
build several Mannlicher Carcanos that could be assembled and
disassembled very quickly. The gunman that Rowland and Brennan saw
could have been armed with one of those modified Carcanos.
bigdog
Apparently the CIA was planning on hunting white tailed deer.
curtjester1
It's the same ol'....categorize Oswald, and not look any further. Why
don't you get to know the folks at Klein's and incriminate them.
Learn about rifles and banking systems then you might get somewhere
instead of huffing and puffing.
CJ
bigdog
Oh, now the banking system was in on it. While we're at it, let's
throw in the Boy Scouts of America and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.
Anybody else we've left out?
Martin Shackelford
Martin
"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
news:f14ce067-c2cd-470a...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Ben Holmes
says...
>
>The shirt is the key, Walt. The clearest blowups match the Martin film.
>
>Martin
>
>"Walt" <papakoc...@evertek.net> wrote in message
>news:f14ce067-c2cd-470a...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>On 20 Jan, 23:45, "Martin Shackelford" <msha...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Gee, Walt, when I talk about discarding old garbage, the yahoo CTs here
>> accuse me of being a LNer. Apparently I discard some of their cherished
>> garbage.
>>
>> Martin
>
>Martin, I can understand why some folks would think that you're
>wearing a disguise. That you pretend to be a CT when you're actions
>indicate that you're a LNer.... I've noticed it myself.
The key is Martin's treatment of eyewitnesses. Virtually indistinguishable from
LNT'ers.
That and the fact that Martin uses many of the same forum tactics as LNT'ers.
curtjester1
Hey, after this the dog might learn what endorsing a check is.
CJ
bigdog
Another totally irrelevent point from the King of Irrelevance.
curtjester1
Keep reading on in my third thread, about what a money might look like
after it has been through the banking system. Hint, it won't be
blank.
CJ
Martin Shackelford
using
"LNer tactics" some of which are only "LNer" by your definition.
In this post, you use exactly the same tactic being used on the McAdams
newsgroup
by LNer Dave Reitzes in his attacks on me, and for the same reason--to avoid
having to deal with the evidence.
There is no question that the man in the doorway is Lovelady, and I have
posted
the evidence here a number of times in the past:
1) Clear blowups from Altgens show the same shirt pattern as Lovelady is
wearing
in the Martin film.
2) Clear blowups from the Hughes film show the shirt is the same color as
Lovelady
is wearing in the Martin film.
3) Oswald himself said he was in the lunchroom at this time, not in the
doorway.
I am sorry to see you and Walt trying to perpetuate a long-discredited myth.
I am not surprised to see you using "LNer tactics" while accusing me of
doing it.
Martin
"Ben Holmes" <ad...@khadaji.com> wrote in message
news:fn50h...@drn.newsguy.com...
Walt
> Frankly, Ben, you are the one using "LNer tactics"--while accusing me of
> using
> "LNer tactics" some of which are only "LNer" by your definition.
> In this post, you use exactly the same tactic being used on the McAdams
> newsgroup
> by LNer Dave Reitzes in his attacks on me, and for the same reason--to avoid
> having to deal with the evidence.
> There is no question that the man in the doorway is Lovelady, and I have
> posted
> the evidence here a number of times in the past:
> 1) Clear blowups from Altgens show the same shirt pattern as Lovelady is
> wearing
> in the Martin film.
> 2) Clear blowups from the Hughes film show the shirt is the same color as
> Lovelady
> is wearing in the Martin film.
> 3) Oswald himself said he was in the lunchroom at this time, not in the
> doorway.
>
> I am sorry to see you and Walt trying to perpetuate a long-discredited myth.
> I am not surprised to see you using "LNer tactics" while accusing me of
> doing it.
>
> Martin
Martin, I know you "believe" that the man in the doorway is
Lovelady....And you're entitled to your belief, but that does not make
your belief a FACT. I could be just as adamant and say that it is Lee
Oswald.... But that doesn't make it a FACT.
>
> "Ben Holmes" <ad...@khadaji.com> wrote in message
>
> news:fn50h...@drn.newsguy.com...
>
>
>
> > In article <NQflj.111$xq2...@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net>, Martin
> > Shackelford
> > says...
>
> >>The shirt is the key, Walt. The clearest blowups match the Martin film.
>
> >>Martin
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
bigdog
>
> Martin, I know you "believe" that the man in the doorway is
> Lovelady....And you're entitled to your belief, but that does not make
> your belief a FACT. I could be just as adamant and say that it is Lee
> Oswald.... But that doesn't make it a FACT.
>
Walt
Oh really??.... Can you read that name badge on his shirt? O-s-w-a-l-
d.......
bigdog
That's right, Shemp. When you have no facts, make something up.
Walt
Hey asshole.... I just asked a simple question ( I try to keep em
simple when I'm inquiring of a simpleton)
Can you read that name badge on his shirt? Does it say O-s-w-a-l-d ?
tomnln
"bigdog" <jecorb...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4b60d266-2a58-4f6c...@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
The FBI says "You're Full of Shit!"
Walt
> "bigdog" <jecorbett1...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Tom. in Shanefelt exhibit #24 on your WS that is NOT the shirt Oswald
was wearing when he was arrested, and that is NOT Oswald wearing
it. The shirt in Shaneyfelt #24... IS ... The reddish brown shirt
that LHO wore in the TSBD that morning, so it could be the same shirt
seen in the Altgens photo. The FBI used an imposter to make
Shaneyfelt #24. They admitted that the man was not Oswald but the
"explained that they just wanted to photograph the shirt on a person,
for investigative purposes. The bastards were lying..... If that's
all they were doing why did they crop off the man's head and why was
he in handcuffs??