FMJ bullets don't leave lead snowstorms
Irish 0001
Mike's web page describes how the fragments in JFK's head were a tiny "lead
snow storm" of a frangible bullet or one that explodes. A military Full Metal
Jacket (FMJ) bullet doesn't do this.
So its real simple.
Take the spent casings found in the Texas book depository. Who made them? See
that they were made with FMJ bullets.
Guess what?
Its impossible for these bullets fired from the Texas Book depository to have
hit JFK's head because the only ballistic evidence is of the tiny "lead
snowstorm" fragments. Wrong type of ammo.
And also why JFK's brain was "lost".
JFK's brain with a "lead snowstorm" would prove ANOTHER cartridge type was
fired that day from another gun and another gunman, which means....
CONSPIRACY.
Dreitzes
>
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MGriffith_2/head-1.htm
>
>Mike's web page describes how the fragments in JFK's head were a tiny "lead
>snow storm" of a frangible bullet or one that explodes.
Correct.
A military Full Metal
>Jacket (FMJ) bullet doesn't do this.
>
That's my understanding as well.
>So its real simple.
>
>Take the spent casings found in the Texas book depository. Who made them? See
>that they were made with FMJ bullets.
>
>Guess what?
>
>Its impossible for these bullets fired from the Texas Book depository to have
>hit JFK's head because the only ballistic evidence is of the tiny "lead
>snowstorm" fragments. Wrong type of ammo.
>
Actually, I don't believe that's *necessarily* so. They could theoretically
have been hand-loaded with hunting loads. However, I don't believe the
cartridges show any telltale signs of hand-loading, nor did Oswald own the
necessary equipment. Of course, he could have bought reloads (I believe a
certain individual in Dallas is even known to have sold hand-loaded
Mannlicher-Carcano ammo), but, again, I don't believe the cases showed any
signs of reloading.
So I think it's accepted that all three "Oswald" bullets were full-metal
jacketed.
>And also why JFK's brain was "lost".
>
Well, I'm afraid you're on shaky ground here. That's a Garrison factoid; it's
been known for many years that the brain and other materials disappeared while
in the custody of the Kennedy family. Gus Russo presents some compelling
circumstantial evidence in *Live by the Sword* that suggests RFK buried the
brain with JFK when the body was reinterred in 1967. Russo's book is "Oswald
did it" all the way, but he presents some extremely valuable research.
>JFK's brain with a "lead snowstorm" would prove ANOTHER cartridge type was
>fired that day from another gun and another gunman, which means....
>
>CONSPIRACY.
You should think these things through a bit, Irish. Are you arguing that the
government's position is that the head shot *didn't* fragment? You're aware,
are you not, that several fragments are in evidence from that alleged shot,
right? And you're aware that other fragments were used for spectrographic and
neutron activation analysis? And that the X-rays in evidence prove the bullet
fragmented?
And yet . . . many people seem to think that this doesn't in itself prove . . .
"CONSPIRACY."
The value of the brain would have been in determining the direction from which
the shots came. And the government should never have let the family take
custody of the evidence, which was *public* property.
Dave Reitzes
Sam McClung
and cut some slits in the forward end of the FMJ bullet before
shooting it? Could this result in a "frangible" bullet?
I wonder if the brain was lost or rather if the whole head was
lost. There is a web site online I am searching the address for
to provide you.
It has an interesting analysis of the similarities of physical
appearance between JFK and J.D. Tippit (the Dallas cop
killed within an hour of JFK, purportedly by Lee Oswald).
They looked strikingly similar. Some believe some or all of
J.D.'s body was used to replace some or all of JFK's.
Supposedly, family members remarked when JFK's body
was displayed post-mortem 'that doesn't even look like
him' (paraphrased to the best of my recollection). Maybe
it wasn't him.
Sam
Irish 0001 wrote:
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MGriffith_2/head-1.htm
>
> Mike's web page describes how the fragments in JFK's head were a tiny "lead
> snow storm" of a frangible bullet or one that explodes. A military Full Metal
> Jacket (FMJ) bullet doesn't do this.
>
> So its real simple.
>
> Take the spent casings found in the Texas book depository. Who made them? See
> that they were made with FMJ bullets.
>
> Guess what?
>
> Its impossible for these bullets fired from the Texas Book depository to have
> hit JFK's head because the only ballistic evidence is of the tiny "lead
> snowstorm" fragments. Wrong type of ammo.
>
> And also why JFK's brain was "lost".
>
Sam McClung
> Mike [i.e. Irish 0001] There is a web site online I am searching the address for
> to provide you.
Mike,
Take a look at the following if you have the opportunity and inclination:
http://www.mtexchange.com/morningstar3.htm
http://www.mtexchange.com/morningstar2.htm
The data there is especially timely in light of the recent revelations
regarding the bronze casket.
Sam
Irish 0001
I am in the military and shoot FMJs all the time. They don't break up into snow
storms.
You can get a block of gelatin and try it yourself.
But Dave brings up a good point.
What's wrong with the JFK family? They had the brain and didn't let anyone look
at it for the truth.
Why?
Speaking from personal experience here...my mom was murdered and we never found
the killer(s). There were a lot of love/hate rivalry type feelings us kids had
towards mom. Bottom line is we dropped the investigation after a while.
My guess is that the Kennedy family, all individualist/rivals were luke-warm to
finding the truth and just let it go.
Another possibility was death threats etc.
Here is an interesting idea.
Jackie was the one who suggested her husband's oresidency be remembered as
"Camelot". "Camelot" was also the name of the CIA covert action program against
Cuba. Was Jackie trying to say something with a hidden meaning?
I truly think Jackie knew a conspiracy killed her husband AND this is why she
left the country for years etc.
Irish 0001
The FMJ bullet is very pointy as you know, one of the benefits of a hard outer
core. I guess from trial/error you could come up with some cuts into and area
behind the nose that could break first.
Then this is what would happen...
The copper jacket would seperate, leaving one or a few sharp pieces and the
lead core would as a soft metal "slug" up as soon as it hit something hard.
These are my observations after shooting various type bullets into a mound of
clay I used to have.
But the "snow storm" of 40 or more fragments in JFK's head doesn't fit a FMJ
bullet even one with cuts made into it.
I could visualize maybe 10 pieces from a frangible FMJ but not 40. A "snow
storm" to me indicates a hollow core bullet or one with an explosive tip that
breaks up as soon as it hits the bone, not later as it passes through and
seperates.
Irish 0001
the order for it placed?
It seems like it showed up awfully quick after the killing.
Was it pre-ordered?
Irish 0001
Why don't we exhume JFK and have Cyril Wecht do the examination? To hell with
the competitive Kennedy family. This is about National security and who runs
our nation. Its a crime and their pathetic cowardice on this issue so they can
pursue their own ego-careers are secondary to the health of this nation.
Since when does a crime investigation take second seat to the wishes of a
victim's family?
The one thing I see constant in all the LN apologists is their unwillingness to
accept the possibility of criminals to put forth EFFORT. Evil people are not
lazy, ften its the lust for their crime's gains that make them "work a holics".
Afterall, most of the dirty work is paid out. E. Howard Hunt isn't going to
have to operate the back-hoe to dig up LHO's grave in a hot Texas morning
unless he wants to do it for the kicks.
Irish 0001
My goodness. Tippit and JFK look alike.
Think about it. You double LHO, you double JFK.
You double the patsy to conceal his origin of with the conspiracy.
You double the victim to coneal his origin of death.
This is a FACT--Tippit and JFK looked alike and that is no cooincidence seeing
how they were both killed in the same area on the same day.
Has anyone considered JFK's doubling with LHO's doubling as an idea from the
same source?
Sam McClung
Agreed 100%.
Sam
Domitian
of Hawaiian shirt thingie if I recall correctly and looking straight
into the camera with head tilted) and he didn't look overtly like JFK,
at least to me. Does anyone have another shot of Tippit that can be
posted, one that is more suggestive of this resemblance?
Appreciated.
Sam McClung
> I've only seen one picture of Tippit (the one where he's wearing a kind
> of Hawaiian shirt thingie if I recall correctly and looking straight
> into the camera with head tilted) and he didn't look overtly like JFK,
> at least to me. Does anyone have another shot of Tippit that can be
> posted, one that is more suggestive of this resemblance?
>
> Appreciated.
>
> Irish 0001 wrote:
> >
>
Dom, go to the following referenced web site to see the relevant comparison photos:
Sam
Martin Shackelford
JFK's was a different shade). Morningstar is really grasping at straws with this
one.
Martin
Irish 0001 wrote:
> http://www.mtexchange.com/morningstar3.htm
>
> My goodness. Tippit and JFK look alike.
>
> Think about it. You double LHO, you double JFK.
>
> You double the patsy to conceal his origin of with the conspiracy.
>
> You double the victim to coneal his origin of death.
>
> This is a FACT--Tippit and JFK looked alike and that is no cooincidence seeing
> how they were both killed in the same area on the same day.
>
> Has anyone considered JFK's doubling with LHO's doubling as an idea from the
> same source?
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Martin Shackelford
Dallas, following a request for one from the hospital (I don't recall if it was
Secret Service or someone else who requested it). It was an in-stock item at the
funeral home.
Martin
Irish 0001 wrote:
--
Domitian
if I don't watch it.
Who wants to take on the daunting task of compiling an index of all
known JFK assassination sites, both pro-CT and anti-CT? There are web
rings, but none I know of covers all the really good sites, and few
rings I've seen take both viewpoints into account. Some rings miss the
best sites, too.
I want to see the pro and con sites for balance. I have my own murky
ideas about what happened but they are subject to change depending on
the best evidence. Both sides score points...and sometimes for each
other, without meaning to. They all drop into the soup for ingestion.
I think they HAVE to. I don't want to be an "Oswald Dunnit" or "CIA
Dunnit" or "Elvis Dunnit" just on the basis of studying a single
viewpoint. If that's fence-sitting and I get railed at, so be it. But
no detective worth his salt comes to a conclusion without checking all
available leads.
Sam McClung wrote:
> Dom, go to the following referenced web site to see the relevant comparison photos:
>
> Sam
>
Vern Pascal
facial features. But the chin in the backyard phots seems to belong to
another cop, Roscoe White, who just happened to hold back one of these
photos until his premature death. -----------------Vern
Ron Hepler
Irish 0001 wrote in message
<19990531181329...@ng-fz1.aol.com>...
The momentum transfer evident in the head snap, is also indicative of soft
hunting type ammo, not an FMJ.
But the evidence for this snowstorm, save for a few small fragments
recovered at the autopsy, is the "Lateral Xray". The problem with this Xray
is that it is proof of its own forgery. This Xray shows the rear of the
skull bone cracked but otherwise totally intact. While the Harper fragment,
a 5 x 7 cm piece of the occipital bone remained in Dallas until Saturday
11/23/63. So there is no way that it could have been "reinserted" for the
xray.
The extreme likelyhood that the "Snowstorm" existed, is reinforced by the
recent revelation of the TWO brains. The "Snowstorm" is also part of the
reason for the alteration of the head wound as described in the Sibert &
Oneil Report as "Surgery to the Head....the Top of the Skull", and further
elaborated on in Lifton's "Best Evidence".
Interesting Twists, Huh?
Ron
Martin Shackelford
White didn't "hold back" one of the backyard photos. He, and other
Dallas cops, kept copies of various photos. White worked in the photo lab,
and saved a boxful, which became available to the HSCA after a burglary
resulted in their theft and recovery, and consequent publicity. HSCA
obtained other copies of the same photo (see the chart in the HSCA volumes).
Similarly, the Dallas Police tapes were in a box in somebody's garage for
quite a while, until HSCA looked for them.
Martin
Vern Pascal wrote:
--
Vern Pascal
I know we're getting off topic here re: Roscoe White, but if you can get
hold of Groden's The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald, check out the pic on
p.213. You'll see that Roscoe's broad chin is a dead-ringer for the chin
on LHO in the BY photos. Groden makes this same comparison on p.248,
with the two portraits side by side.
Also, this comparison is made most comprehensively, and very
persuasively in Jack White's video, "Fake", utilizing several military
photos, and several other points of similarity in the two men's bodies.
Maybe Jerry McCleer, or someone else, can post these portraits side by
side. The similarity between them in their unusually prominent broad
chin type is astonishing. Of course, from the chin up, there is no
resemblance.---------------------------Vern
Joe Backes
emaciated JFK from back when he ran for Congress in the 40's and spliced that
with a 1960's photo of Tippit.
The same area? Dealey Plaza is at least a mile away from where Tippit was
killed.
Joe Backes
Dreitzes
>From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
>Date: 5/31/99 7:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <37531FB6...@concentric.net>
>
>Tippit and JFK don't look at all alike, except for both having dark hair (and
>JFK's was a different shade). Morningstar is really grasping at straws with
>this
>one.
>
>Martin
>
Yup.
Who exactly do these guys think is in Tippit's grave, anyway?
DR
Sam McClung
> As far as JFK and Tippit are concerned, I don't see much resemblance in
> facial features. But the chin in the backyard phots seems to belong to
> another cop, Roscoe White, who just happened to hold back one of these
> photos until his premature death. -----------------Vern
Interesting observation Vern. Maybe someone can post a photo of Roscoe for
comparison sake.
Sam
Irish 0001
To make a head shot to the eyes/nose is a difficult shot. If you missed
slightly high, you would want some extra "oomf" in case you hit the skull and
glanced off. This "extra insurance" to insure a kill isn't easily hidden.
Irish 0001
side-by-side of JFK/Tippit
Irish 0001
Irish 0001
I appreciate your candor. This is what we need to hear.
But what of the reports from his peers that he did look alike? Do you think
those are not true?
The question IS---what's a DPD officer--a friend of ruby's getting himself
killed on JFK kill day?
Why didn't Ruby say he killed LHO to avenge his pal Tippit?
Did anyone ask Ruby about Tippit?
Irish 0001
I'd like to see a SIMULTANEOUS exhumation of Tippit, JFK and Oswald by trusted
JFK researchers, followed by a "reality check" of what was discovered.
What do you think?
Irish 0001
Leo Sgouros
Irish 0001 wrote in message <19990601041335...@ng27.aol.com>...
Here is a reality check.
Trusted Jfk researchers.
Discuss.
037
Irish 0001
link him to the murder weapon?
"Chief, I can crops some photos in the lab".
"Who is about Oswald's build?"
Men look around.
"White. stand up."
Irish 0001
Who dumps empty shells when you still have two shots left? The whole pioint of
a revolver is that it leaves no spent casings unless YOU WANT TO DROP THEM. If
you reloaded 4 more, you'd catch ALL the casings and reload the unused two and
put 4 more in. You only dump and load when you are completely out.
Where are these shell casings?
Where are the 6 shell casings LHO's revolver had in the theater?
Were tests done to see if it were fired that day?
Were any extra shells found in LHO's jacket?
Irish 0001
don't quibble please!
I appreciate your appearance observation...
However JD Tippit's murder has juxtaposed itself with the assasination of the
century, perhaps all time. WHY?
Then a wallet with LHO's non-existant driver's license was dropped?
Lets focus on this one fact.
Was a LHO wallet dropped at the Tippit murder scene, YES or NO?
Was there a driver's license for LHO in it?
YES or NO?
Be careful how you answer.
If you have to answer YES, we have a conspiracy, PERIOD. Forget about all the
other aspects, just focus in on these two FACTs. If you are a LN Theorist and
in your heart you have to say yes, its over. There was/is a conspiracy.
Nobody drops a wallet with a phony ID after a gunfight unless he wants to frame
someone. Oh, yes didn't they find a wallet on LHO in the theater?
Who wears two wallets?
Let us all stop this LN silliness, and gird up our loins, join forces and begin
the fight.
I say lets demand that E. Howard Hunt be prosecuted for the JFK conspiracy.
Seems like a very "target-rich" environment there.
John Ritchson
>
> Hi Irish,
>
> Irish 0001 wrote in message
Greetings Ron:
I just thought I'd add that it was the appearent fineness of the so-
called lead snowstorm that led sniper Craig Roberts to conclude that
it was consistant with that produced by a mercury loaded bullet which
was the known MO of Corsican assassin, Lucien Sarti and the alledged
MO of triggerman, James Sutton Files.
I agree with Colonel Roberts that the initial observed wounds of
JFK as described by Dr. Perry are entirely consistent with having been
impacted by a high velocity, mercury loaded, frangible bullet in the 180
grain range with ballistics on par with a 30-06 or 300 Winchester
magnum.
If Lucien Sarti did in fact fire the kill-shot, it is possible he
was using a custom made 8x60mm Manufacture d'Armes MAS M36 sniper
rifle, with Swiss optics and his own loads which would definently put
it on par with American sniping systems.
I am also concidering the possibility of two closely spaced shots, both
of which impacted JFK's head, but on different tangents but as yet, I
remain unconvinced that there were two head-shots, although it would
explain some of the anomalies observed such as the large defect at the
left rear of JFK's skull, which if memory serves, was entirely too
large and regular to have been produced by a fragment.
However the scenerios ultimately play themselves out, the simple fact
remains that when JFK arrived at Parkland, he was basicly a dead man
missing a large part of his brain from wounds that could not have been
caused by a 6.5mm FMJ bullet.
At any rate, On the issue of a "Dum-Dum" FMJ disintegrating into a lead
snow-storm upon terminal impact; military FMJ's are usually made with
lead hardened by antimony, tin, and occasionally a little silver fluxed
in with cobalt chloride. "Dum-Dum's" made from such bullets tend to
break up into large chunks if they brake up at all, it all depends on
how well the bullet's core is swaged to the jacket.
I believe modern forensic examination of JFK's skull will reveal
positive evidence about the shot or shots that killed him which is why
I think it important to exhume his body for such an examination, and
I think the conspirators as well as the Kennedy family know this. In
fact, I think another autopsy should be performed using modern forensic
technology.
--
With Regard,
John Ritchson(SSGT. 499th TC USATC HG US Army Class of 69)
(GunSmith/Ballistician,Black Eagle Gun Works)
(Survivor, SE Asian Games, 11BRAVO7,Tet 1970)
************************************************************
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that
heralds new discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it) but
"That's Funny..." Isaac Asimov
************************************************************
Dreitzes
m>
>
[snip]
>However JD Tippit's murder has juxtaposed itself with the assasination of the
>century, perhaps all time. WHY?
Because he was killed 45 minutes after the assassination by John F. Kennedy's
accused assassin.
>Then a wallet with LHO's non-existant driver's license was dropped?
According to ONE GUY.
>Lets focus on this one fact.
>
>Was a LHO wallet dropped at the Tippit murder scene, YES or NO?
No.
>Was there a driver's license for LHO in it?
>
>YES or NO?
No.
>Be careful how you answer.
>
>If you have to answer YES, we have a conspiracy, PERIOD. Forget about all the
>other aspects, just focus in on these two FACTs. If you are a LN Theorist and
>in your heart you have to say yes, its over. There was/is a conspiracy.
>
>Nobody drops a wallet with a phony ID after a gunfight unless he wants to
>frame
>someone. Oh, yes didn't they find a wallet on LHO in the theater?
>
>Who wears two wallets?
Irish, you really need to read a book or two. Or ten.
>Let us all stop this LN silliness, and gird up our loins, join forces and
>begin
>the fight.
>
>I say lets demand that E. Howard Hunt be prosecuted for the JFK conspiracy.
>Seems like a very "target-rich" environment there.
Isn't he dead?
Not that that should be any barrier to prosecuting him. Hey, look at what Ollie
Stone did to Ferrie, Banister, Shaw, Ruby, etc.
DR
Dreitzes
Irish,
Oswald was linked to the murder weapon by his palm print -- an old print, not a
newly forged one -- and the mail order coupon in his handwriting. Today he's
been further linked to the rifle by his partial fingerprints from the trigger
housing, prints that were photographed in 1963, but were too small to be of any
use then. Today, digital technology allows us to combine the partials into one
accurate, complete print that is conclusively identifiable as that of Lee
Harvey Oswald.
Still don't think he owned a rifle? Not persuaded by Marina Oswald's testimony?
I don't blame you there. But George and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt saw the rifle
in the spring of 1963. George De M even mentioned it to a friend of his at the
time.
Meanwhile, Irish, there is no evidence that the backyard photos are fake.
Everyone admits they LOOK fake; I won't argue against that for a second. But
there's no evidence they are. There are other photos of Oswald that catch his
chin at the same angle, making it look flat -- look through Bob Groden's
*Search for LHO* book for some examples. The shadows are weird, but the HSCA
made comparison photos in the backyard at Neely Street and got similar results.
The grain analysis may not be 100% evidence that they weren't forged, as I was
led to believe, but in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it makes a
pretty good argument. And the "crop line" on the chin has been exaggerated by
people like Groden, who likes to "enhance" the photo by making copies of copies
of copies so that the photos lose detail and unconnected anomalies seem to form
a pattern that doesn't exist in the originals. As for alleged differences in
measurements in the different photos, I suspect it's due to the poor quality of
the Imperial Reflex camera's lens -- and Oswald's camera *did* take at least
one of those photographs; the arguments that a composite could have been
rephotographed with the Imperial Reflex is precluded by the poor quality of the
copies that result. The difference between an original and a rephotographed
copy is apparent, as the HSCA showed.
On top of that, four different people say they saw one of the photos well
before the assassination -- if you don't trust Marina (understandable) and
Michael Paine (vaguely understandable), there are two former employees of *The
Worker,* to whom Oswald sent a copy of one of the photos in the spring of 1963;
according to Marina, that was one of the reasons he had her take the photos in
the first place.
Last, if you think Roscoe White is a suspect, you need to look at the
fraudulent nature of the case that brought him to our attention
See David Perry's "Who Speaks for Roscoe White?" if you don't know about that.
http://www.flash.net/~dperry2/roscoew.htm
If you listen to nothing else I say, please listen to this: I'm not saying
there wasn't a conspiracy; I'm saying that you're only allowing yourself to
hear one side of the story. If you do that, you're not being any more
open-minded than a typical LN.
Just think about it.
Dave Reitzes
Dreitzes
>
>How did White die?
From Dave Perry's article, "Who Speaks for Roscoe White" . . .
(quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Roscoe White and Richard Adair were both burned in an industrial accident
(fire) while working at M&M Equipment. The fire report shows the accident
happening on 09/23/71 at 4:30 p.m. Adair survived. White died on 09/24/71 at
5:50 p.m. "of severe burns of the body."
Both Adair and the Estate of Roscoe White filed lawsuits against Arrow Chemical
to recover for damages. Each lawsuit described how the loss occurred. Adair's
is more specific, as he lived through the ordeal. What follows are the
descriptions of the loss as found in Adair's lawsuit.
Richard Adair was helping White "to weld a piece of metal by holding the piece
of metal while White did the actual welding. They were working on a metal table
which had been constructed for that purpose and under this metal table was
stored a can of liquid compound known as PC-68...a substance which is highly
volatile and inflammable and explosive in nature." Arrow Chemical marketed this
compound which they claim "was of merchantable quality, safe, and fit for the
purpose for which it was used." Adair claims that the defendant (Arrow
Chemical) failed "to test its product and provide an adequate warning of any
dangerous propensity..." of the product PC-68.
As to the claim of the Estate of Roscoe White: "Retired Dallas lawyer Lamar
Holley represented the White family in a lawsuit against the manufacturer of a
flammable chemical that apparently caused the explosion that resulted in Mr.
White's death. Mr. Holley said he considered the lawsuit nothing more than a
product liability case."
Conclusion
There was a fire, but the record shows it was not intentional. A can of
volatile liquid with the warning label missing was stored under a workbench for
an indeterminate period of time. No one knew of its dangers until metal slag
dripped onto the top of the can, burned through, and the liquid exploded.
I have interviewed four witnesses to the fire (including Adair) and the widow
of a fifth witnesses. Not one person indicated the fire mysterious, only
accidental. One witness stated "Roscoe was in the driveway, totally burned. He
said he was sorry for causing the accident and felt it would cost him his job."
(end quote) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For the full article:
http://www.flash.net/~dperry2/roscoew.htm
If you're under the impression that many witnesses have experienced "mysterious
deaths," I strongly recommend you check out the following URL:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm
Virtually every single person claimed to be a "mysterious death" either had no
substantial conection to the assassination or have had the details of their
deaths greatly distorted. There may be a couple exceptions, but I'm not even so
sure about *that* anymore.
Dave Reitzes
Dreitzes
>From: iris...@aol.com (Irish 0001)
>Date: 6/1/99 4:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <19990601041335...@ng27.aol.com>
>
>Frankly,
>
>I'd like to see a SIMULTANEOUS exhumation of Tippit, JFK and Oswald by
>trusted
>JFK researchers, followed by a "reality check" of what was discovered.
>
>What do you think?
Who's in Grant's Tomb, Irish?
DR
Dreitzes
>From: iris...@aol.com (Irish 0001)
>Date: 6/1/99 4:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <19990601041141...@ng27.aol.com>
>
>Dear Martin,
>
>I appreciate your candor. This is what we need to hear.
>
>But what of the reports from his peers that he did look alike? Do you think
>those are not true?
You ever hear someone say, "People always tell me that I look like [insert name
of attractive celebrity here]" and think to yourself, "HUH??"
I've seen exactly one photograph of Tippit that shows even the vaguest
resemblance.
>
>The question IS---what's a DPD officer--a friend of ruby's getting himself
>killed on JFK kill day?
>
He stopped the wrong guy, Irish. If you disagree, I dare you to read Dale
Myers' *With Malice.*
It's been available for six months or so, and no one has put forward a single
credible argument against it. There's a reason for that.
You can order it at:
If the Warren Commission had presented the evidence this well, there never
would have been the slightest doubt who killed J. D. Tippit. And I'm someone
who argued for years that Oswald *could not* have done it. I was wrong. I was
reading people's uninformed opinions in books, and not looking at the real
evidence.
>Why didn't Ruby say he killed LHO to avenge his pal Tippit?
Because Ruby didn't know J. D. Tippit. That's a myth. He *was* friendly with
another Dallas cop named "Tippitt" (two T's at the end, I believe).
>Did anyone ask Ruby about Tippit?
What about him?
DR
Richard Vizzutti
drei...@aol.com (Dreitzes) wrote:
>>Subject: Who is in Tippit's grave?
>>From: iris...@aol.com (Irish 0001)
>>Date: 6/1/99 4:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>>Message-id: <19990601041335...@ng27.aol.com>
>>
>>Frankly,
>>
>>I'd like to see a SIMULTANEOUS exhumation of Tippit, JFK and Oswald by
>>trusted
>>JFK researchers, followed by a "reality check" of what was discovered.
>>
>>What do you think?
>
>Who's in Grant's Tomb, Irish?
>
>DR
Hey what about John Wilkes Booths grave? DNA could tell if he was really killed.
-Rick-
--
*KENNEDY and BEYOND*
http://www.angelfire.com/me/carcano/index.html
Honouring the Son
http://www.angelfire.com/or/jesus/
Sam McClung
> Sam;
>
> I know we're getting off topic here re: Roscoe White, but if you can get
> hold of Groden's The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald, check out the pic on
> p.213. You'll see that Roscoe's broad chin is a dead-ringer for the chin
> on LHO in the BY photos. Groden makes this same comparison on p.248,
> with the two portraits side by side.
I don't have it, but it would be neat, I think, to currently
crop one of the Roscoe photos with Oswald's head. for
comparison sake.
> Also, this comparison is made most comprehensively, and very
> persuasively in Jack White's video, "Fake", utilizing several military
> photos, and several other points of similarity in the two men's bodies.
> Maybe Jerry McCleer, or someone else, can post these portraits side by
> side. The similarity between them in their unusually prominent broad
> chin type is astonishing.
Chin points are quite unique to individuals.
> Of course, from the chin up, there is no
> resemblance
Except in the forged photo maybe
Thanks.
Sam
> .---------------------------Vern
Sam McClung
> Please look at the web site links I suggested, the author has a good
> side-by-side of JFK/Tippit
Mike,
Also, wax and cosmetics can make....well...someone
look like someone else...vis a vis Hollywood as an example.
Sam
Sam McClung
> OK men. We need to sweep this Oswald thing under the rug quick. Any way we can
> link him to the murder weapon?
>
> "Chief, I can crops some photos in the lab".
>
> "Who is about Oswald's build?"
>
> Men look around.
>
> "White. stand up."
"Chief, what do we do for a Carcano to use in the photo with White?"
Sam McClung
Kostikov, Sarti (or Souetre), Oswald, Mexico, Dallas.
Interesting topics, all.
> I agree with Colonel Roberts that the initial observed wounds of
> JFK as described by Dr. Perry are entirely consistent with having been
> impacted by a high velocity, mercury loaded, frangible bullet in the 180
> grain range with ballistics on par with a 30-06 or 300 Winchester
> magnum.
>
> If Lucien Sarti did in fact fire the kill-shot, it is possible he
> was using a custom made 8x60mm Manufacture d'Armes MAS M36 sniper
> rifle, with Swiss optics and his own loads which would definently put
> it on par with American sniping systems.
>
> I am also concidering the possibility of two closely spaced shots, both
> of which impacted JFK's head, but on different tangents but as yet, I
> remain unconvinced that there were two head-shots, although it would
> explain some of the anomalies observed such as the large defect at the
> left rear of JFK's skull, which if memory serves, was entirely too
> large and regular to have been produced by a fragment.
Gordon Arnold heard a bullet go right past his left ear
(presumably from the north-south leg of the fence).
Ed Hoffman (deaf mute) saw what may have been
someone on the north-south leg of the fence shoot.
Moorman may have captured in her photo a sniper
at this location.
Then Gordon Arnold heard a shot go overhead
(presumably from the east-west leg of the fence).
Moorman, Zapruder, and the person who took the
Hatman photo all captured on film the sniper on the
east-west leg of the fence with a smoking rifle in his hands.
Unfortunately, key areas in the photos are "blotched out",
potentially as a result of routine photo processing.
Lee Bowers saw from his railroad watchtower "something"
happen behind the fence.
"All along the watchtower..." Jimi Hendrix, 101st Airborne
Sam
Vern Pascal
It is a persistent, but pernicious factoid that the Kennedy family,
specifically RFK, took possession of his brother's brain and then had it
either destroyed, or re-interred with the body. But there is no
evidence, other than anecdotal. that this occurred. All we know for
certain is that the last anyone saw or heard of the brain is when Dr.
Burkley hauled it away in a canister from the autopsy (or one of the
autopsies, anyway). What happened to it after that, is only
conjecture.----Vern
Ron Hepler
John Ritchson
Greetings:
The initial reports stated that the spent cartridges located at the
scene were .38 autos which are a rimless cartridge which cannot be fired
in a revolver without being inserted into "Moon-Clips" and are quite
unmistakable from the much larger rimmed .38 specials that the revolver
alledgedly owned by LHO fired.
It is shear idiocy for any shooter to unload a revolver of its spent
cartridges, leaving evidence at a crime scene, after the crime has been
committed. However auto-cartridges are ejected with conciderable force
and their recovery would pose a time consuming effort on the part of the
shooter and would tend to be left at the crime scene.
I tend to trust the initial reports before any spin can be put on the
story, especially in the JFK case.
Martin Shackelford
at that time, not J.D. This came up in his testimony.
As for lookalikes, none of the known photos of Tippit look anything like JFK,
including the one Morningstar uses. Whether someone he knew thought he looked
like JFK doesn't change that.
Martin
Irish 0001 wrote:
> Dear Martin,
>
> I appreciate your candor. This is what we need to hear.
>
> But what of the reports from his peers that he did look alike? Do you think
> those are not true?
>
> The question IS---what's a DPD officer--a friend of ruby's getting himself
> killed on JFK kill day?
>
> Why didn't Ruby say he killed LHO to avenge his pal Tippit?
>
> Did anyone ask Ruby about Tippit?
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Irish 0001
1. Did a wallet get dropped by Tippit?
YES OR NO?
2. Did this wallet have a driver's license for LHO?
YES OR NO?
3. When LHO was apprehended in the movie theatre did he have yet another
wallet?
YES OR NO?
Don't give me hundreds of pages of a book, answer the questions.
The answers to all are yes. And a man who cannot drive a car with a lisence
"provided" to a wallet dropped by a murder created on his behalf = conspiracy
Put it to you, this way, if you or any LN person admits to the FACT that there
was a LHO driver's lisence the LN possibility collapses.
In fact, its over the moment LHO returns from Russia in the middle of the damn
Cold War and is not arrested as a traitor. Even going along with LHO as a lone
shooter, the U.S. Government (many people) are guilty for letting him act as a
free man in good 'ole U.S. THAT'S A CONSPIRACY.
So my admonition is, STOP QUIBBLING over 1% minutae and start owning up to the
99% of the facts we do know and those facts point to CONSPIRACY.
Irish 0001
JFK assassination?
YES OR NO?
Irish 0001
He was also charged with killing Tippit.
That means the two murders were related as a historical fact. The fact that a
wallet was dropped on the scene with LHO stuff in it links them together by
someone WILLING them to be related.
Or Dave, do you want an errant bullet from Dealey Plaza (perhaps CE 399?) to
wander in the air for 45 minutes and then come down into Tippit, and THEN you
will admit the murders are linked?
But of course, the bullet will still look like it was shot into a water barrel,
right?
Dreitzes
>
>Here is the bottom line. Don't reference a book, stay with me here.
>
>1. Did a wallet get dropped by Tippit?
Oswald or Tippit?
Oswald, no.
Tippit. no.
>YES OR NO?
No.
>2. Did this wallet have a driver's license for LHO?
No.
>YES OR NO?
Nope.
>3. When LHO was apprehended in the movie theatre did he have yet another
>wallet?
He had a wallet. He had his only wallet.
>YES OR NO?
Yup.
>Don't give me hundreds of pages of a book, answer the questions.
I already did. You think you're going to win any arguments this way, Irish?
>The answers to all are yes.
Your evidence, please?
And a man who cannot drive a car with a lisence
>"provided" to a wallet dropped by a murder created on his behalf = conspiracy
*Yawn.* If you say so, Irish.
Don't let any facts get in your way.
>Put it to you, this way, if you or any LN person admits to the FACT that
>there
>was a LHO driver's lisence the LN possibility collapses.
Okay, where's the license?
>In fact, its over the moment LHO returns from Russia in the middle of the
>damn
>Cold War and is not arrested as a traitor.
You're changing the subject, Irish.
Even going along with LHO as a
>lone
>shooter, the U.S. Government (many people) are guilty for letting him act as
>a
>free man in good 'ole U.S. THAT'S A CONSPIRACY.
No, it's not, Irish. You should acquaint yourself with the definition of the
word if you're going to throw it around so much.
>So my admonition is, STOP QUIBBLING over 1% minutae and start owning up to
>the
>99% of the facts we do know and those facts point to CONSPIRACY.
You seem to be awfully frightened of the prospect of debating any of those
facts, Irish.
Tell you what: You post to me the following words, and I'll never bother you
again:
"Dave, my mind's made up, and I don't want to hear about any facts, much less
debate them."
Deal?
Dave Reitzes'
Dreitzes
>From: iris...@aol.com (Irish 0001)
>Date: 6/2/99 9:24 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <19990602092409...@ng-bd1.aol.com>
>
>Did the murderer of LHO (Ruby) know the Tippit that was killed the day of the
>JFK assassination?
>
>YES OR NO?
No.
Do you have a some kind of vision problem, Irish?
DR
Irish 0001
grave.
Sorry, Dave.
Its called reality.
If you are a laid-back, lazy American who thinks everyone in the world is a
middle of the road consumer who doesn't do anything "extreme" you'll think
everything is what it appears to be.
I suppose you believe the tooth fairy exists because you got money the next day
under your pillow, huh?
Irish 0001
Dreitzes
>
>Until you prove the grave was not "robbed" we cannot be sure aNYONE is in any
>grave.
>
>Sorry, Dave.
>
>Its called reality.
Irish, just say these few simple words and I'll leave you alone forever:
"Dave, my mind is made up, and I don't want to hear about any facts, much less
debate them."
How hard can that be?
DR
Dreitzes
>From: iris...@aol.com (Irish 0001)
>Date: 6/2/99 9:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <19990602092902...@ng-bd1.aol.com>
Irish, it's clear you do not know the facts. The bullets, for example, were not
shot into water.
I have no desire to waste my time, Irish. If you don't want to take my advice
and research the facts, if you'd rather lap up certain people's unsupported
theories, that's your business.
If you want to get serious, you know where to find me.
Dave Reitzes
Irish 0001
If the witnesses have nothing to fear, lets start bringing them in to trial,
say against E. Howard Hunt or another likely conspirator. We could show them
your web link and they should be relieved to know that they are not in danger
and can tell the truth.
We could start with Marina, Robert Oswald, Nellie Connolly and a host of others
with real questions not human interest fluff.
Irish 0001
I just read a NG post by Mike Griffith where he had a photo expert detail how
they are.
What in tarnation is it that you want for evidence?
Didn't they find cut-out images in the DPD?
What was this for a kid's science project?
Irish 0001
"Don't mind givin it up?"
"No problem, I can buy one anywhere for a few dollars. I thought they'd be
worth something, I guessed wrong"
Haizen Paige
Irish 0001 wrote:
>
> Here is the bottom line. Don't reference a book, stay with me here.
>
> 1. Did a wallet get dropped by Tippit?
>
> YES OR NO?
>
> 2. Did this wallet have a driver's license for LHO?
>
> YES OR NO?
>
> 3. When LHO was apprehended in the movie theatre did he have yet another
> wallet?
>
> YES OR NO?
>
> Don't give me hundreds of pages of a book, answer the questions.
>
> The answers to all are yes. And a man who cannot drive a car with a lisence
> "provided" to a wallet dropped by a murder created on his behalf = conspiracy
>
> Put it to you, this way, if you or any LN person admits to the FACT that there
> was a LHO driver's lisence the LN possibility collapses.
>
> In fact, its over the moment LHO returns from Russia in the middle of the damn
> Cold War and is not arrested as a traitor. Even going along with LHO as a lone
> shooter, the U.S. Government (many people) are guilty for letting him act as a
> free man in good 'ole U.S. THAT'S A CONSPIRACY.
>
> So my admonition is, STOP QUIBBLING over 1% minutae and start owning up to the
> 99% of the facts we do know and those facts point to CONSPIRACY.
Irish, here's what Dreites and his colleagues are looking for to
establish foul play and conspiracy:
FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT
January 1, 1972
We, Lyndon Johnson, J. Edgar Hoover, Guy Bannister (ex post facto), the
DPD, David Ferrie (ex post facto) and Clay Shaw, do hereby leave this
Post-It note admitting that we were extremely peeved at John F. Kennedy
and decided to roast his ass but good. He was selling us out to the
commies and oil prices were dropping. It was perverse of us, you know,
but politicians will be politicians and I was getting on in years, and
well, hell, I just knew I'd be better at the job than the rich, Ivy
League, sonofabitchin' Kennedy -- who made me play second fiddle for far
too long. (But whoops!, ya know a little later, after I got our asses
whupped in Vietnam, I sorta saw was that Ivy League, condescending
sonofabitch was drivin' at to keep out our ground troops.)
I have also, just so there's no doubt about it, left a hard copy log of
my phone calls to Mr. Hoover; and Mr. Hoover to me. We double checked
with AT & T to be sure they were correct. And to show there's no mistake
what any of us were up to, we have provided a tape of the phone calls
between Allen Dulles and Gen. Landsdale, plus Bannister to Ferrie, plus
Ferrie to Shaw. They freely volunteered them, imagine that? Taped at
Ruby's Carousel Club, the conversations between Ferrie, Ruby and Osward
are a little hard to make out because of the strip show going on in
background. (Did Jada have a pair or what!) Ruby did us good ole boys a
big favor by knockin' of Oswald, but we decided we still needed to 86
him anyway for that extra ounce of protection.
The boys and I had a great time looking at the photos and films taken in
Dallas that were never returned to the original owners. As trophies, we
divvied up Kennedy's gray matter and sat around drinking whiskey and
applauding our wild and crazy bodaciousness. I guess we showed him,
didn't we? Everyone was given a little vial as a trophy of their
complicity. It's no wonder no one could find it after all these years.
And sorry about the witnesses who saw a rifle report or smelled gunsmoke
on the knoll. When one is taking over the presidency of a dead man, you
have to cover your ass, and well, if it comes down to making monkey's
ass out of these salf-of-the-earth Americans or myself, it just behooves
a president to put his gov't CIA journalist to work and drive the
reputations of these goodhearted but naive American fools into the
ground. -- And that gawdamn Garrison just couldn't keep his nose out of
our business! What kind of an American is it that hasn't the sense to
know when to lie down and let his gov't roll over him whenever it wants
to? We got him GOOD! Or we tried to.
Included in this envelop are the signed hard copy confessions of Hoover,
Dulles, Shaw, Ferrie, Landsdale, Sturgess, Bannister and Hunt. These
good American patriots had such a pang of conscience that they decided
to come clean on behalf of what's left of this country morally and
politically. How did we fool the people for this long? Well, some folks
would take the word of the devil if it was written down on official
looking stationary, or we never would have come up with the brilliant
idea of the Warren Commission. You'll see. Just wait until newsgroup are
invented and you have to read what McAdams and Reitzes have to say on
behalf of the conclusions of one of the greatest propaganda snow jobs
the world has ever seen. See, it IS possible to fool some of the people
some of the time.
After all is said and done, we had a ball -- admittedly at the expense
of democracy and the American public, but no one is perfect.
About the political astuteness of carrying out and concealing the
assassination to begin with?
Oops!
Was there a conspiracy? This hard copy, carboned, xeroxed confession is
the proof to convince the most skeptical of researchers -- as if some of
you hadn't known anyway. I knew these Post-IT notes would come in handy
in the future, so that's why I saved them. See? I DID have the interest
of the country at heart after all
Yours insincerely,
Lyndon B. Johnson
---
notarized: Arlen Spector
Dreitzes
>
>Dave,
>
>I just read a NG post by Mike Griffith where he had a photo expert detail how
>they are.
>
>What in tarnation is it that you want for evidence?
Have you read the HSCA report?
A simple yes or no will do.
>Didn't they find cut-out images in the DPD?
No, they found a cut-out from one of the REENACTMENT photos.
>What was this for a kid's science project?
Do you want to know the truth, or do you want to play games?
The choice is yours, Irish.
DR
duquesne
The LN's don't want facts. You show them photos's and they tell you
what you see isn't there or those are shadows, or bushes, or whatever.
Ya see, you come up with 50 witnesses who say X, they come up with 1 that
says Y, and guess what? Your 50 witnesses are either mistaken, liars, or
crackpots.
The LN's only accept the WCR or sometimes the HSCA when it suits them.
The LN's know better than the eyewitnesses, better than the earwitnesses,
and much better than any persons in the cars involved with the actual
shootings or any doctors at Parkland who were so rushed and so confused
that they didn't have time to notice anything about the person they were
treating!
They tell you tests were made which duplicate events that took place that
day, which in reality do no such thing.
What they like to do most however is to play games here by using
different ISP's to post under, change their nicks, pretend to be
something they are not and then swear that you are wrong when you catch
them red handed. They have to do these things because they know that the
government evidence is pure crap, so they have to disrupt and make
nuisances of themselves, or they have been killfiled by so many under
their usual nick, that they have to come back under an alias in order to
get back in the debates.
After you follow this group awhile, you get to know the people who really
have some interesting theories and things to say. They are easy to spot
too. They usually ask the LN's to try and refute one simple fact. What
happens then is the thread usually dies, because all of a sudden the LN's
end up losing interest in that particualr aspect of the crime.
This is only the beginning...wait till ya hear from the "I used to be a
CT until I really studied the assassination and saw the light" crowd.
They really crack me up the most!
When getting into a debate with some of these LN's, just keep one thing
in mind. Picture those 3 monkeys. The ones with their hands over their
mouth, ears and eyes. That way you'll you'll have a clear picture in your
mind of exactly what you are dealing with.
gene
Dreitzes
Gene, of course, has never debated facts in his life, at least as far as I can
tell.
But hey, facts aren't for everyone.
Just remember one simple thing, though, Irish -- I think Gene may have learned
this -- if you don't want the answers, there's just no point in asking the
questions.
Dave Reitzes
duquesne
> Gene, of course, has never debated facts in his life, at least as far as I can
> tell.
>
> But hey, facts aren't for everyone.
>
> Just remember one simple thing, though, Irish -- I think Gene may have learned
> this -- if you don't want the answers, there's just no point in asking the
> questions.
>
> Dave Reitzes
>
Notice who the first one to jump on it is too! What's the matter tough
guy? Don't like your new server?
gene
Dreitzes
>
>
>> Gene, of course, has never debated facts in his life, at least as far as I
>can
>> tell.
>>
>> But hey, facts aren't for everyone.
>>
>> Just remember one simple thing, though, Irish -- I think Gene may have
>learned
>> this -- if you don't want the answers, there's just no point in asking the
>> questions.
>>
>> Dave Reitzes
>>
>
>
>Notice who the first one to jump on it is too!
What's the matter tough
>guy? Don't like your new server?
>
>gene
Which "new server" would that be, Gene?
Is that the best evasion you can think of?
DR
gene
> >Notice who the first one to jump on it is too!
> Jump on what? Who's jumping where?
>
> What's the matter tough
> >guy? Don't like your new server?
> >
> >gene
>
>
> Which "new server" would that be, Gene?
>
> Is that the best evasion you can think of?
>
> DR
>
>
statement an evasion...but obviously you do, you consider most direct
statements anyone makes here an evasion. Go back to playing your "I'm a
CT games." Maybe someone can give ya some 'puter usage lessons and
explain to ya what all those funny little things ya find in message
headers are. Oh sorry, there aren't any computer instructions in the WR,
so I guess you wouldn't believe anyone anyway.
gene
Martin Shackelford
We also know that the canister was later among the materials in the
crate in Evelyn Lincoln's office at the Archives. After that, it vanishes
from the record, and all is speculation.
Martin
Vern Pascal wrote:
--
Martin Shackelford
exploded. I don't recall the details, but they're probably on the Net.
Martin
Irish 0001 wrote:
> How did White die?
Martin Shackelford
Martin
Irish 0001 wrote:
> Did the murderer of LHO (Ruby) know the Tippit that was killed the day of the
> JFK assassination?
>
> YES OR NO?
--
Martin Shackelford
Many of us have seen Morningstar's work and his website. He's
been pushing these theories for quite some time now. He also claims to
be able to see bullet tracks in the air in the Zapruder film.
Martin
Irish 0001 wrote:
> Please look at the web site links I suggested, the author has a good
> side-by-side of JFK/Tippit
DAnde9348
>From: Haizen Paige <hai...@sedona.net>
>Date: Wed, Jun 2, 1999 15:18 EDT
>Message-id: <3755836D...@sedona.net>
>
>
Hey Haizen, where'd you find ol Lyin Bastard Johnson's notes? Did Lady Bird
put em up for sale? I heard she's down to her last 20 million so she's
looking around for things to sell. She was going to sell her soul but the
Devil showed her a bill of sale for that little black item .......
Seriously...... I believe you are awfully close to the truth with you're
satire...
Walt
Tony Pitman
>Irish 0001 wrote:
>
>> Dear Sam,
>>
>> The FMJ bullet is very pointy as you know, one of the benefits of a hard outer
>> core. I guess from trial/error you could come up with some cuts into and area
>> behind the nose that could break first.
>>
>> Then this is what would happen...
>>
>> The copper jacket would seperate, leaving one or a few sharp pieces and the
>> lead core would as a soft metal "slug" up as soon as it hit something hard.
>>
>> These are my observations after shooting various type bullets into a mound of
>> clay I used to have.
>>
>> But the "snow storm" of 40 or more fragments in JFK's head doesn't fit a FMJ
>> bullet even one with cuts made into it.
>>
>> I could visualize maybe 10 pieces from a frangible FMJ but not 40. A "snow
>> storm" to me indicates a hollow core bullet or one with an explosive tip that
>> breaks up as soon as it hits the bone, not later as it passes through and
>> seperates.
>>
>
>Agreed 100%.
>
>Sam
Well you'd best disagree again Sam.
FMJ rounds are not "pointy" as 0001 is trying to tell you.
They vary.
And in particular, the 6.5mm round that Oz is supposed to have been
using was round nosed.
It was a very blunt instrument indeed.
And if you want to create a Dum Dum as they were called you would cut
an X or whatever in the very nose of the thing.
If you start operating on the thing behind the nose it would be just
as likely to fly apart when it starts spinning and having it's lands
and grooves pressed into it by the rifling while still in the barrel.
I am also unaware of any "frangible" FMJ rounds.
If you want a bullet to fly apart it does not make a lot of sense to
use one that is encased in a Full Metal Jacket.
When you engineer a mercury cored round it is just as well to use a
hunting round.
The term frangible is a bit confusing to many people as they expect
something with some kind of explosive core.
But a rifle bullet is too small for that along with it's detonator and
all.
I spose nowadays you could came up with something using the kind of
rarified metals, elements and compounds they play with in Star Wars
and nuclear labs but this was 1963 and it is still not necessary.
Sure, an FMJ round did not cause any snowstorm in JFK's skull and I
think whatever was in there had been pretty much got at or got out
before those x-rays were exposed.
Tony
Tony Pitman
>http://www.mtexchange.com/morningstar3.htm
>
>My goodness. Tippit and JFK look alike.
>
>Think about it. You double LHO, you double JFK.
>
>You double the patsy to conceal his origin of with the conspiracy.
>
>You double the victim to coneal his origin of death.
>
>This is a FACT--Tippit and JFK looked alike and that is no cooincidence seeing
>how they were both killed in the same area on the same day.
>
>Has anyone considered JFK's doubling with LHO's doubling as an idea from the
>same source?
It all sounds Irish to me
Tony:-)
Sam McClung
> On Mon, 31 May 1999 23:12:34 GMT, Sam McClung <sa...@flash.net> wrote:
>
> >Irish 0001 wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Sam,
> >>
> >> The FMJ bullet is very pointy as you know, one of the benefits of a hard outer
> >> core. I guess from trial/error you could come up with some cuts into and area
> >> behind the nose that could break first.
> >>
> >> Then this is what would happen...
> >>
> >> The copper jacket would seperate, leaving one or a few sharp pieces and the
> >> lead core would as a soft metal "slug" up as soon as it hit something hard.
> >>
> >> These are my observations after shooting various type bullets into a mound of
> >> clay I used to have.
> >>
> >> But the "snow storm" of 40 or more fragments in JFK's head doesn't fit a FMJ
> >> bullet even one with cuts made into it.
> >>
> >> I could visualize maybe 10 pieces from a frangible FMJ but not 40. A "snow
> >> storm" to me indicates a hollow core bullet or one with an explosive tip that
> >> breaks up as soon as it hits the bone, not later as it passes through and
> >> seperates.
> >>
> >
> >Agreed 100%.
> >
> >Sam
>
> Well you'd best disagree again Sam.
> FMJ rounds are not "pointy" as 0001 is trying to tell you.
Tony,
That's a valid point. Not all FMJs are "pointy."
Where was my (ballistic) thinking?
Probably more focused in on the core of the discussion
as to the unlikelihood that someone (e.g. Oswald) could
have used a pocket knife or such to easily create a frangible
bullet the type of which caused the explosive wound which
blew JFK's head apart.
> They vary.
> And in particular, the 6.5mm round that Oz is supposed to have been
> using was round nosed.
> It was a very blunt instrument indeed.
> And if you want to create a Dum Dum as they were called you would cut
> an X or whatever in the very nose of the thing.
> If you start operating on the thing behind the nose it would be just
> as likely to fly apart when it starts spinning and having it's lands
> and grooves pressed into it by the rifling while still in the barrel.
> I am also unaware of any "frangible" FMJ rounds.
It seems "full metal jacket" implies there is no "break"
in the metal jacket (jacket not defined to mean covering
the entire bullet), so "frangible" would not apply.
Maybe someone here more familiar with bullet
manufacture can clarify this.
It seems like Hydra-Shoks, etc., which don't have a
"full metal jacket" are called jacketed hollow points
or some such description.
> If you want a bullet to fly apart it does not make a lot of sense to
> use one that is encased in a Full Metal Jacket.
Agreed.
> When you engineer a mercury cored round it is just as well to use a
> hunting round.
> The term frangible is a bit confusing to many people as they expect
> something with some kind of explosive core.
Rubbing a "lead" wheel weight against concrete,
then rubbing something steel and copper should
reveal lead is a softer metal than the other two,
and thus a lead bullet would more easily disintegrate
upon impact. Modifying the lead bullet by putting an
even softer metal inside it (e.g. mercury, etc.)
increases the "explosive" nature of it, I believe.
> But a rifle bullet is too small for that along with it's detonator and
> all.
Then there was the guy who called a patent attorney
and said he wanted to get a patent on atomic bullets,
but was having a problem with heat dissipation.
He was not telling the truth, I guess it goes without
saying, when the FBI showed up. : )
> I spose nowadays you could came up with something using the kind of
> rarified metals, elements and compounds they play with in Star Wars
> and nuclear labs but this was 1963 and it is still not necessary.
>
> Sure, an FMJ round did not cause any snowstorm in JFK's skull and I
> think whatever was in there had been pretty much got at or got out
> before those x-rays were exposed.
Or maybe even the x-rays are of someone else,
maybe even someone else killed on 11-22-63 in Dallas.
Whatever the case, something doesn't smell right.
Sam
> Tony
Vern Pascal
revealed the presence of Mercury, or if there's any record of this in
the Gov. tests. Maybe this could be pressed for at the present time
while CE567 is still under examination by the FBI.
-----------Vern
Vern Pascal
Do we actually kow for a fact that the canister containing the brain was
among the autopsy items in that crate in Evelyn Lincoln's office?
Did anyone comment on looking inside the canister to verify that a brain
was insde? The trail may grow cold with Burkley.---------Vern
Sam McClung
Sam
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> Roscoe White died at work when a container of flammable material
> exploded. I don't recall the details, but they're probably on the Net.
>
> Martin
>
> Irish 0001 wrote:
>
> > How did White die?
>
DAnde9348
>From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
>Date: Thu, Jun 3, 1999 02:26 EDT
>Message-id: <37562083...@concentric.net>
>
>
>Did the murderer of LHO (Ruby) know the Tippit that was killed the day of the
>JFK assassination?
>
>YES OR NO?
>
No, according to Ruby.
>
>Martin
>
Oh well hell....that makes it gospel then. If Ruby said it must be the truth.
walt
Martin Shackelford
The canister was of the type used to store a brain, and it was
labeled "gross matter," the typical labeling of a brain in such a canister.
I doubt that Evelyn Lincoln looked inside, or allowed anyone else to.
Martin
Vern Pascal wrote:
--
Martin Shackelford
Martin Shackelford
his connection with a Tippit on the force. But I guess you rather go for sarcasm
than check context.
Martin
DAnde9348 wrote:
--
Robert Milner
The Kennedy/Tippitt look-a-like theory was published back in 1983 in
a book titled" Is Kennedy Alive and Well?" by Bernard Bane from Mass.
The theory flopped, and so did the book.
Thanks
Maranatha!
Bob
Robert Milner
with Jack Ruby. She did not know if J.D knew him personally. I'm not
sure if Marie Tippit Thomas is still alive or not.
Maranatha!
Bob
Martin Shackelford
It helps to be reminded how old and tired some of these theories are.
Martin
Robert Milner wrote:
--
Tony Pitman
That's right Irish. You do as you're damn well told.
Q; What do you say to an Arafat with a machine gun?
A; Yasser
John McAdams
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MGriffith_2/head-1.htm
>
>Mike's web page describes how the fragments in JFK's head were a tiny "lead
>snow storm" of a frangible bullet or one that explodes. A military Full Metal
>Jacket (FMJ) bullet doesn't do this.
>
>So its real simple.
>
>Take the spent casings found in the Texas book depository. Who made them? See
>that they were made with FMJ bullets.
>
>Guess what?
>
>Its impossible for these bullets fired from the Texas Book depository to have
>hit JFK's head because the only ballistic evidence is of the tiny "lead
>snowstorm" fragments. Wrong type of ammo.
>
>And also why JFK's brain was "lost".
>
>JFK's brain with a "lead snowstorm" would prove ANOTHER cartridge type was
>fired that day from another gun and another gunman, which means....
>
>CONSPIRACY.
I'm afraid this is yet another factoid. Howard Donahue has had a lot
to do with spreading this around.
In fact, the experiments of Olivier (for the WC) and Lattimer showed
that an FMJ bullet hitting a skull did shatter and leave a bunch of
fragments in test skulls.
BTW, the "lead snowstorm" thing is a misreading of DeMaio. Again,
blame Donahue.
.John
--
Kennedy Assassination Home Page
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm
Bill Parker
Still propping up the tired old lies, eh Perfesser?
Since this is the "Nuthouse", aren't you admitting to being a Nut by posting here?
Have you ever considered working for a living?
No, I didn't think so.
Bill Parker
DAnde9348
>Message-id: <37574C13...@concentric.net>
>In case you missed it, Walt, the original question related to what Ruby said
>about
>his connection with a Tippit on the force. But I guess you rather go for
>sarcasm
>than check context.
>
>Martin
>
Well thank you Martin, I know what the original question was...... I guess it
makes all the difference in the world..... whether Ruby knew Tippit 1 or Tippit
2.... If he said he didn'y know Tippit 1 we can believe him, but if said he
didn't know Tippit 2 we can't.... does this make sense to you? The point I
was making was:.... Ruby was a liar and a conman.... his word is worthless.
Walt
DAnde9348
>From: 6489mc...@mu.edu (John McAdams)
>Date: Sat, Jun 5, 1999 23:46 EDT
>Message-id: <3759ee74...@news.primenet.com>
>
>
>In fact, the experiments of Olivier (for the WC) and Lattimer showed
>that an FMJ bullet hitting a skull did shatter and leave a bunch of
>fragments in test skulls.
Hey perfesser you should refrain from posting about subjects that you are ill
prepared to to talk about.... You make yourself look even more foolish.....
Is readily apparent that you know nothing about how the various types of
bullets act when they strike different substances.....
A 6.5 FMJ is one of the best bullets in the world for penetrating capability
.....It has been used to bag elephants because it will penetrate the thick
skull and not shatter.
walt
Bill Parker
can you cite a ref to support your elephant skull remark?
Bill "Dogturd" Parker
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, Jun 8, 1999 12:12 EDT
>Message-id:
><C6755FB2CCAB7C00.6F7DEBE4...@library-proxy.airnews.
>can you cite a ref to support your elephant skull remark?
>
>Bill "Dogturd" Parker
Sorry Dogturd,
I'd have to go to the library and spend hours looking up references for you....
and then you'd probably not believe it anyway. I know you won't take my word
for it but perhaps there's a lurker or two out there that are avid readers
about hunting big game, who can verify the penetrating power of the 6.5mm
bullet.
Walt
AnthonyMarsh
> >>Date: Sat, Jun 5, 1999 23:46 EDT
> >>Message-id: <3759ee74...@news.primenet.com>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >>In fact, the experiments of Olivier (for the WC) and Lattimer showed
> >>that an FMJ bullet hitting a skull did shatter and leave a bunch of
> >>fragments in test skulls.
> >
> >Hey perfesser you should refrain from posting about subjects that you are ill
> >prepared to to talk about.... You make yourself look even more foolish.....
> >Is readily apparent that you know nothing about how the various types of
> >bullets act when they strike different substances.....
> >
> >A 6.5 FMJ is one of the best bullets in the world for penetrating capability
> >.....It has been used to bag elephants because it will penetrate the thick
> >skull and not shatter.
> >
> >walt
> >
>
>
> Bill "Dogturd" Parker
Guns & Ammo May 1977 p.56.
Petzal, David E. "Encyclopedia of Sporting Firearms, Facts on File,
pages 4-6.
Williams, Stuart M. "Mannlicher Mystique," American Rifleman, January
1988, pp. 39-41, 75-77.
James, C. Rodney, "Our Most Lethal Military Rifle?", Guns Illustrated,
29th Edition, 1997, pp. 15-19.
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
AnthonyMarsh
>
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: FMJ bullets don't leave lead snowstorms
> >Date: Tue, Jun 8, 1999 12:12 EDT
> >Message-id:
> ><C6755FB2CCAB7C00.6F7DEBE4...@library-proxy.airnews.
>
> >
> >Bill "Dogturd" Parker
>
> I'd have to go to the library and spend hours looking up references for you....
> and then you'd probably not believe it anyway. I know you won't take my word
> for it but perhaps there's a lurker or two out there that are avid readers
> about hunting big game, who can verify the penetrating power of the 6.5mm
> bullet.
>
> Walt
Been there, done that. You know where to go when you are looking for
facts. Don't even think about asking any of the WC defenders for facts
like this.
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, Jun 8, 1999 21:52 EDT
>Message-id: <375DC9C1...@quik.com>
>> >>Date: Sat, Jun 5, 1999 23:46 EDT
>> >>Message-id: <3759ee74...@news.primenet.com>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >>In fact, the experiments of Olivier (for the WC) and Lattimer showed
>> >>that an FMJ bullet hitting a skull did shatter and leave a bunch of
>> >>fragments in test skulls.
>> >
>> >Hey perfesser you should refrain from posting about subjects that you are
>ill
>> >prepared to to talk about.... You make yourself look even more
>foolish.....
>> >Is readily apparent that you know nothing about how the various types of
>> >bullets act when they strike different substances.....
>> >
>> >A 6.5 FMJ is one of the best bullets in the world for penetrating
>capability
>> >.....It has been used to bag elephants because it will penetrate the thick
>> >skull and not shatter.
>> >
>> >walt
>> >
>>
>>
>> Bill "Dogturd" Parker
>
>
>Petzal, David E. "Encyclopedia of Sporting Firearms, Facts on File,
>pages 4-6.
>Williams, Stuart M. "Mannlicher Mystique," American Rifleman, January
>1988, pp. 39-41, 75-77.
>James, C. Rodney, "Our Most Lethal Military Rifle?", Guns Illustrated,
>29th Edition, 1997, pp. 15-19.
>
>Anthony Marsh
>The Puzzle Palace
There ya go Dogturd.......Isn't this group amazing!!! Ask the question and
someone will have the answer......
Walt
Tony Pitman
>>From: iris...@aol.com (Irish 0001)
>>
>>Dave,
>>
>>I just read a NG post by Mike Griffith where he had a photo expert detail how
>>they are.
>>
>>What in tarnation is it that you want for evidence?
>
>
>Have you read the HSCA report?
>
>A simple yes or no will do.
>
>
>>Didn't they find cut-out images in the DPD?
>
>
>No, they found a cut-out from one of the REENACTMENT photos.
>
>
>>What was this for a kid's science project?
>
>
>Do you want to know the truth, or do you want to play games?
>
>The choice is yours, Irish.
>
>DR
And you can guarantee that the cut out was from a re-enactment 100%
can you?
You were there perhaps? Saw this take place with your own eyes?
Who were the people who actually did this re-enactment? Who was the
photo expert or experts who actually did the work.
I dont mean the name of the guy who they said was cut out of the
picture. I mean those who worked with the film and what were their
credentials?
I know what the HSCA panel said but I also know what their medical
panel said and they basically told the autopsists that they were lying
about where they placed the wounds and measured them.
You speak of truth while quoting the HSCA report that is full of
untruths.
There are as many if not more photo experts who have examined the
photos and say they are fake as the HSCA produced to say they were not
and that panel had a political agenda. The whole thing was a political
excercise. Being run by a bunch of politicians, how could it be
anything else?
Tony
Tony Pitman
wrote:
>On 31 May 1999 05:54:46 GMT, iris...@aol.com (Irish 0001) wrote:
>
>>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MGriffith_2/head-1.htm
>>
>>Mike's web page describes how the fragments in JFK's head were a tiny "lead
>>snow storm" of a frangible bullet or one that explodes. A military Full Metal
>>Jacket (FMJ) bullet doesn't do this.
>>
>>So its real simple.
>>
>>Take the spent casings found in the Texas book depository. Who made them? See
>>that they were made with FMJ bullets.
>>
>>Guess what?
>>
>>Its impossible for these bullets fired from the Texas Book depository to have
>>hit JFK's head because the only ballistic evidence is of the tiny "lead
>>snowstorm" fragments. Wrong type of ammo.
>>
>>And also why JFK's brain was "lost".
>>
>>JFK's brain with a "lead snowstorm" would prove ANOTHER cartridge type was
>>fired that day from another gun and another gunman, which means....
>>
>>CONSPIRACY.
>
>
>I'm afraid this is yet another factoid. Howard Donahue has had a lot
>to do with spreading this around.
>
>In fact, the experiments of Olivier (for the WC) and Lattimer showed
>that an FMJ bullet hitting a skull did shatter and leave a bunch of
>fragments in test skulls.
>
>BTW, the "lead snowstorm" thing is a misreading of DeMaio. Again,
>blame Donahue.
>
>.John
Misreading or not everyone can see for themselves the size of of the
fragments in the x-rays that gave rise to this expression and they are not
consistent with what you get when an FMJ round breaks up. The big
fragments that the SS claim were found in the front of the limmo are more
like what you would expect but how in hell the mid section of an FMJ round
turned to dust, while the base and nose sections did not, after only
passing thru the back of his skull. The WC's own autopsy report shows that
the bullet must have hit flush on as Humes et al say that the hole in the
back of the skull was small and round enough to show evidence of entry on
the inner table of the occipital bone. Never mind the HSCA panel as they
never saw the actual wound in the skull bone adjacent to the EOP. They
should have as Dr Finck said he had it photographed so god knows what
happened to the photo.
The round would have been stable in flight until it passed thru the back
of the skull and strictly speaking, should not have broken up until it hit
the next solid object while tumbling or whatever. Ie. while exiting the
skull in this case. Look what it took to break off only a tiny amount of
CE 399 and we are assured that this one was crashing into solid bone while
travelling backwards, sideways, you name it.
Tony
DAnde9348
>From: a...@southern.co.nz (Tony Pitman)
>Date: Tue, 15 June 1999 09:58 PM EDT
>Message-id: <375b3880...@news.southern.co.nz>
Irish asked....
>>Didn't they find cut-out images in the DPD?
>>
>>No, they found a cut-out from one of the REENACTMENT photos.
>>
The cutouts found in the Dallas police archives were of "OSWALD" as he was
posed in 133C.... the photo that the Dallas police kept hidden for thirteen
years..
It was NOT a reenactment photo....Rietzes you're a liar...
Walt
Bob Cutler
At the risk of sticking my foot into someone elses
pissing-contest.....
Seeing as there is SO much misinformation, opinion stated as fact,
misunderstood evidence, urban legend and unavailable hard evidence...I
dont think its quite right to accuse someone of "Lying" simply because
they might not understand the origin of the evidence they are citing,
or whether they are citing actual evidence as opposed to someone elses
theory(s), without realizing it.
Its one thing to be "mistaken"
or "in error"
Or even to honestly believe things that may not be true because there
seems to be substantive evidence to support it.
Its an entirely different thing to outright "lie" or deliberately
mislead others.
If we are truely concerning ourselves with fact-finding and solving
the miriad of mysteries, and untagling the webs of conspiracy, then
gratuitiously calling people "Liars" is anti-productive, and
distracting to the process.
Obviously there are a wide range of opinions, theories and
philosophies represented here...Sticking to the facts, or the
disection of the facts and evidence is productive, anything else is
distracting and juvenile.
From the viewpoint of someone who just stumbled in without knowing the
whole soap-opra history of this NG, when I see one person calling
names like "Liar"...I really begin to question the name-callers
credibility, not the "liars".
Just a thought...carry on.
bob cutler
Dave Reitzes
>
dand...@aol.com (DAnde9348) wrote:
You too, huh? \:^)
>
>Just a thought...carry on.
>
>bob cutler
I'll take this opportunity to let people see for themselves whether or not my
post about the Oswald "ghost" photo qualifies as some kind of exercise in
deception. Since the accuracy of my observations can easily be checked by
following the instructions in the text, I can't understand why Walt Cakebread
hasn't shown precisely where these alleged lies occur.
I've also added some comments from Jerry McLeer.
The Origin of the Oswald "Ghost" Picture
Take a look at the tree branches visible over the wall in back of the various
"backyard" photos. CE 133-A, 133-B and 133-C show the trees to be thick with
leaves (consistent with the testimony that they were taken in the spring) while
the "ghost picture" or cut-out version and the unretouched reenactment photo
(top left, TKOAP, p. 170) show the tree to be virtually bare (consistent with
the testimony that they were taken after the assassination, in the winter).
Now look at the unretouched reenactment photo (top left) and try to view it for
the two dimensional image it is; in other words, try to tune out the depth in
the photo. (Painters in the fine arts are generally trained to do this when
painting from life.) Find the small, dark, rectangular shape located directly
over the lawman's head at about an eleven o'clock or eleven-thirty position. It
appears to be a window that has been bricked over on the neighboring house.
Found it?
Okay. Now look at the obviously retouched reenactment photo (TKOAP, p. 170, top
right). Find the same bricked-over window in this picture. Notice that it's not
in the same position in relation to the rearmost wooden post of the staircase.
The window appears lower, and its left edge is slightly obscured by the post.
(It's also been unnaturally darkened like many other details in this photo, and
the tree branches have been retouched to look fuller. These details aren't
important; they were apparently just done to make the retouched version LOOK as
retouched as possible.) The camera lens has shifted slightly to the right and
is higher.Everybody with me so far?
[Jerry McLeer comments: "The photo wasn't retouched. It was taken with a
flash, hence the differences in appearance."]
Okay. Now look at the same bricked-over window in the cut-out version or "ghost
picture" (TKOAP, p. 170, center). The window is farther right and higher in
relation to the post than in the obviously retouched reenactment photo (but
slightly lower than in the unretouched reenactment photo). In other words, the
camera lens is in a different position in each picture, and we can judge this
by certain "landmarks" in the pictures themselves.
Is this important? Only if you want to know where the "ghost picture" came
from.
Turn to page 168 and look at the large photo in the center, the wide-angle
backyard view. Find the bricked-over window. Notice it appears to be in the
exact same position as in the "ghost picture." Also notice on page 168 the
unusual shadow that darkens a little less than the top third of the roughly
four-foot-tall bush towards the right, the same bush that is visible at the
right of all the "backyard" photos. This shadow looks unnatural and could
conceivably have been retouched already, but that's not important.
Notice that nothing even vaguely like this shadow appears in CE 133-A, -B and
-C, although it is similar to the one in the unretouched reenactment photo.
Okay, still with me? This shadowed area of the bush is partly cut from the
"ghost picture," but careful study of the details of the bush that are still
visible around the edge of the excision. The bush appears to have been
artifically darkened just below the "ghost" image of Oswald's left arm (on the
right to the viewer -- the arm holding the rifle). However, as far as the
natural details go, this appears to be the same exact photograph as the
wide-angle photo in the center of page 168.
[Jerry McLeer comments: "No, it's not. But you can't tell from Groden's book
because the ghost photo is cropped. Check out the photos in Oswald Talked pgs.
384-385, and pay close attention to the corner of the shed, and then compare it
to the center photo on pg.168 Groden. Also, disregard the bottom photo on that
page, it's not real."]
From some of the odd minute details that are visible, I can state confidently
that the photo that was cut to make the "ghost picture" was one of two things:
It was either the exact same photograph as the one in the center of page 168,
or a second photograph taken at approximately the same time, with the camera
situated on a tripod, keeping the angle precisely the same. In all probability,
it is the same photograph as the one on TKOAP, page 168.
Obviously, the "ghost" image was cut out to approximate Oswald's figure in CE
133-C, the one that turned out in the Whites' possession. (There is also -- for
reasons I don't know -- a white line running almost vertically, angled just
slightly towards the left, just to the left of the "Oswald" cut-out.)
[Jerry McLeer comments: "The white lines are IMNSHO the edges of an acetate
overlay used to superimpose the ghost image onto the empty backyard photo.
There is also a second version without the white lines. I don't see how you can
say something is *obvious* when you don't have all the facts. Someone has
admitted creating the ghost photo -- DPD Detective Bobby Brown. Allow me to
suggest First Day Evidence and Oswald Talked."]
I could only guess why this cut-out was made. The common-sense explanation is
that it was an intermediate step in the creation of the police reenactment
photo. There is no way I know to prove or disprove this. The photo was only
found something like ten years ago, which means it could have been created long
after the assassination for unknown reasons. But one thing is clear: The "ghost
image" has absolutely nothing to do with the alleged forgery of any of the
"backyard" photos.
[Jerry McLeer comments: "Again, you're jumping to conclusions without knowing
the facts. According to Brown, the ghost photo was done shortly after the
re-enactment photos, not long after the assassination. Pay close attention to
where Brown got the copy of 133-C from. And nothing is clear about these
photos."]
Dave Reitzes