The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle
Raymond
The story;
The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle were part of a
batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il.
They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid
during the Greek civil war. They were commonly avaible on the surplus
market during the early 1960's. They were packed in typical american
20 round boxes of white cardboard.
NOT SURE
What is the evidentiary basis for Dr. Guinn's "facts"? He clearly
based his entire neutron activation analysis in this case on the
proposition that Western Cartridge Company Mannlicher-Carcano
ammunition varied greatly from bullet to bullet but showed homogeneity
within a given Mannlicher bullet. This turns out to be contradicted by
the results of Dr. Guinn's own tests.
It appears that on the day Dr. Guinn told HSCA that "you simply do not
find a wide variation in composition within individual WCC Mannlicher-
Carcano bullets," the entire database on which he relied consisted of
three broken WCC Mannlicher bullets, one of which showed an intra-
bullet variation of 175%, one of which showed an intra-bullet
variation of 84%, and a third which showed an intra-bullet variation
of 16%. [See Appendix B for Guinn's test charts, as well as a
comparison of intra-bullet variations with lot variations in his
tests.] It is reasonable to assume that if Dr. Guinn had performed
other tests of fragments from single Mannlicher bullets and they had
shown greater homogeneity, he would have included them in his test
results. Further, the fact that he worked with only 14 bullets limited
the number he had available for fragmenting and testing.
THE WCC PRODUCTION LOTS
1. Dr. Guinn felt he could make his assertions about the nature of
Mannlicher bullets with certainty because he believed he had examined
bullets from every production lot manufactured by Western Cartridge
Company.
WOLF. Did you examine bullets from every lot produced by the Western
Cartridge Company?
GUINN. Yes. The Western Cartridge Company reportedly made 1 million
rounds of each of 4 production runs, lots 6000. 6001, 6002, and 6003.
They were made at different times in 1954, and reportedly those were
the only lots they ever produced, and we had boxes from each of those
lots. (HSCA, I, p. 494)
But Guinn was again in error. His assumptions were false. Western
Cartridge Company had produced ammunition for the 6.5 Mannlicher-
Carcano before 1954 and this ammunition had found its way into the
mainstream of sellers and distributors. This had been told to the
Warren Commission fourteen years before Guinn testified:
"on March 23, 1964, Mr. R. W. Botts (District Manager, Winchester-
Western) advised the Western Cartridge Company ... manufactured a
quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian
government during World War II. At the end of the war, the Italian
Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type of ammunition was
sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequently was
distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers and individual
purchasers." (WC Exhibit 2694, Vol XXVI, p. 62)
3. The purpose of Mr. Wolf's question and Dr. Guinn's answer was
clearly to establish the comprehensiveness of the work at Guinn's
laboratory and to insure that no kind of 6.5 Mannlicher ammunition had
evaded his testing. Once again, Dr. Guinn's answer is at variance with
known facts.
CONCLUSIONS
1. It is troubling that Dr. Guinn made blanket statements about the
characteristics of WCC Mannlicher-Carcano bullets while unaware of the
existence of Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition from production lots he had
never tested.
Oswald's ammo could have come from:
Western Cartridge Company had produced ammunition for the 6.5
Mannlicher-Carcano before 1954 and this ammunition had found its way
into the mainstream of sellers and distributors. This had been told to
the Warren Commission fourteen years before Guinn testified:
REMEMBER?
"on March 23, 1964, Mr. R. W. Botts (District Manager, Winchester-
Western) advised the Western Cartridge Company ... manufactured a
quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian
government during World War II. At the end of the war, the Italian
Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type of ammunition was
sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequently was
distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers and individual
purchasers." (WC Exhibit 2694, Vol XXVI, p. 62)
Walt
Oswald's ammo??? Oswald never had any ammo..... ( at least none to
fire).... He MAY? have had the ammo that was planted in the so called
"Sniper's Nest", That CIA ammo was NOT available to the general
public. The Cubans who were being trained by Bannister and Ferrie
(CIA) to invade Cuba certainly had access to that ammo and could have
walked off with some of it.
Raymond
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
WALT SAYS:
> Oswald's ammo??? Oswald never had any ammo..... ( at least none to
> fire).... He MAY? have had the ammo that was planted in the so called
> "Sniper's Nest", That CIA ammo was NOT available to the general
> public. The Cubans who were being trained by Bannister and Ferrie
> (CIA) to invade Cuba certainly had access to that ammo and could have
> walked off with some of it.
Was that a BB gun that Lee used to shoot at Walker?
Of course, I supoose you don't believe that LHO was the shooter at
Walker's house
Mr. McDONALD. Did he keep, did Oswald keep, ammunition, cartridges
around the apartment?
Mrs. PORTER. He kept rifle and I guess ammunition, what you call, all
together, and I wasn't fascinated by rifles, so I never took any
interest to look at it or see what it looks like, so I just simply
ignored it most of the time.
Mr. McDONALD. Did you ask him where he obtained this rifle?
Mrs. PORTER. No, I didn't.
Mr. McDONALD. Did he ever take it out, outside the apartment, to
practice with it, to do anything with it?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes, he did.
Mr. McDONALD. And what did he do?
Mrs. PORTER. He will, like before it gets very dark outside, he would
leave apartment dressed with the dark raincoat, even though it was a
hot summer night, pretty hot weather anyway, and he would be wearing
this, and he would be hiding the rifle underneath his raincoat. He
said he is going to target practice or something like that.
Mr. McDONALD. This was one occasion you are talking about with the
raincoat?
Mrs. PORTER. It is several occasions, maybe more than once.
Mr. McDONALD. He did the same thing on several occasions, put the
raincoat on?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And the rifle under the raincoat?
Mrs. PORTER. Yes.
Mr. McDONALD. And how long would he be gone?
Mrs. PORTER. A few hours.
Mr. McDONALD. Directing your attention to that day, April 10, 1963,
would you tell us what happened?
Mrs. PORTER. Well, I cannot remember the timing all the very vivid
details of day. I just can state it that that particular night he did
not come home until very late, and when he did not come home at
regular time, I was worried about him. So I found a note addressed to
me what to do in case if he did not come home. Of course I was
petrified. Nobody I can turn to. But then later that night when he
came home, I asked him to explain. He was out of breath and he was
pale, and asked him to explain this note, and he said that "I just
SHOT General Walker." So I was very upset and enraged about that, and
we had an argument over it.
robcap...@netscape.com
LOL!! Oh YES he does!
Quote on
“There is just too much evidence that Oswald was involved to firing
the
bullet through Walker's window. What his motive was, and if he
intended to kill Walker remains a mystery. It's very doubful that he
intended to kill Walker because according to the evidence Walker was
a
"sitting duck" who Oswald could not have missed if he had intended to
hit him. The distance from the fence to the window was less than 100
feet.” (Walt)
Quote off
Walt is a LNer undercover as a CTer!
> we had an argument over it.- Hide quoted text -
Nobody
Both of you are fart chasers
Walt
Pardon me, Raymond.... I'm sure you'll excuse me if I don't believe
that Oswald shot "AT" Walker..... Do you have PROOF that Oswald shot
"AT" Walker??
The evidence revealed a bullet hole in Walker's window so it's obvious
that a bullet was fired into Walker HOUSE.... But WHERE?? was Walker
at the time??
Do you have PROOF that Lee Oswald was the person who fired that
rifle?? Do you have PROOF that he was alone in that alley behind
Walker's House??
When was that bullet fired through walker's Window?? Could it have
been fired during the day and then later that night a firecracker was
set off to sound like a single gunshot??
Walker claimed that he just sat there behind his desk for a time after
the sound of the "shot" so if the shooter was firing a Mannlicher
Carcano he could have fired FIVE more times and INSURED that walker
had been hit if that was his INTENTION. Was the reason that there was
only a single shot because that "shot" was actually a firecracker??
> we had an argument over it.- Hide quoted text -
Walt
Hey Raymond..... I'm sure you'd rather listen to an "exprt" than use
your own God given eyes and brain.....but If you could employ those
God given gifts I'm confident that you'd find that the bullet that was
recovered in Walker's house (CE 573) was NOT ...NOT .... manufactured
by Western Cartridge Company ( the company that manufactured the
"Magic Bullet" (CE 399)
> we had an argument over it.- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
Take a hike government agent man!
JFK shot at Love Field! NOW that is a good one IF YOU ARE TRYING TO
DISCREDIT THE CT SIDE!
Raymond
The Walker Bullet
On April 10, 1963, a bullet was recovered from General Walker's home,
following an attempt on his life. The bullet, which was severely
mutilated, weighed 148. 25 grains. This bullet had the rifling
characteristics of the C2766 rifle and all its remaining physical
characteristics were the same as the Western 6. 5 millimeter
Mannlicher-Carcano bullet. However, while the bullet could have been
fired from the C2766 rifle, it was severely mutilated and in Frazier's
opinion could not be identified as having been fired or not fired from
that rifle. Nicol agreed that a positive identification could not be
made, but concluded there was "a fair probability" that the bullet had
been fired from the same rifle as the test bullets.
--- Appendix X - Expert Testimony
Firearms And Firearms Identification
Three experts gave testimony concerning firearms and firearms
identification: Robert A. Frazier and Cortlandt Cunningham of the FBI,
and Joseph D. Nicol, superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal
Identification and Investigation of the State of Illinois. Frazier has
been in the field of firearms identification for 23 years, following a
1 year course of specialized training in the FBI Laboratory.
Cunningham has been in the field for 5 years, having also completed
the FBI course. Nicol has been in the firearms identification field
since 1941, having begun his training in the Chicago police crime
laboratory. Each has made many thousands of firearms identification
examinations. Frazier testified on the rifle, the rifle cartridge
cases, and the rifle bullets; Cunningham on the revolver, the revolver
cartridge cases, the revolver bullets, and the paraffin test; and
Nicol on all the bullets and cartridge cases and the paraffin test.
Nicol's conclusions were identical to those of Frazier and Cunningham,
except as noted.
Walt
Just as I predicted..... You'd rather listen to an "expert" than use
your own God given eyes and brain. Is this because you are stupid, or
gullible or gutless...Or matbe you are all three.
Ben Holmes
robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
>On Nov 24, 9:34=A0am, Nobody <stanmoff...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 24, 8:31=A0am, "robcap...@netscape.com" <robcap...@netscape.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > On Nov 23, 10:59=A0pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Nov 23, 10:32 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Nov 23, 9:16 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > > The JFK Commerative Cartridge
>>
>> > > > > The story;
>of a
>> > > > > batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton=
> Il.
>> > > > > They were made for the government of Greece as part of US militar=
>y aid
>> > > > > during the Greek civil war. They were commonly avaible on the sur=
>plus
>> > > > > market during the early 1960's. They were packed in typical ameri=
>can
>> > > > > 20 round boxes of white cardboard.
>>
>> > > > > NOT SURE
>> > > > > What is the evidentiary basis for Dr. Guinn's "facts"? He clearly
>> > > > > based his entire neutron activation analysis in this case on the
>> > > > > proposition that Western Cartridge Company Mannlicher-Carcano
>neity
>> > > > > within a given Mannlicher bullet. This turns out to be contradict=
>ed by
>> > > > > the results of Dr. Guinn's own tests.
>>
>o not
>> > > > > find a wide variation in composition within individual WCC Mannli=
>cher-
>> > > > > Carcano bullets," the entire database on which he relied consiste=
>d of
>> > > > > three broken WCC Mannlicher bullets, one of which showed an intra=
>-
>> > > > > bullet variation of 175%, one of which showed an intra-bullet
>ion
>> > > > > of 16%. [See Appendix B for Guinn's test charts, as well as a
>> > > > > comparison of intra-bullet variations with lot variations in his
>d
>> > > > > other tests of fragments from single Mannlicher bullets and they =
>had
>> > > > > shown greater homogeneity, he would have included them in his tes=
>t
>> > > > > results. Further, the fact that he worked with only 14 bullets li=
>mited
>> > > > > the number he had available for fragmenting and testing.
>>
>> > > > > THE WCC PRODUCTION LOTS
>>
>f
>> > > > > Mannlicher bullets with certainty because he believed he had exam=
>ined
>> > > > > bullets from every production lot manufactured by Western Cartrid=
>ge
>> > > > > Company.
>>
>> > > > > WOLF. Did you examine bullets from every lot produced by the West=
>ern
>> > > > > Cartridge Company?
>>
>> > > > > GUINN. Yes. The Western Cartridge Company reportedly made 1 milli=
>on
>> > > > > rounds of each of 4 production runs, lots6000. 6001, 6002, and 60=
>03.
>> > > > > They were made at different times in 1954, and reportedly those w=
>ere
>> > > > > the only lots they ever produced, and we had boxes from each of t=
>hose
>> > > > > lots. (HSCA, I, p. 494)
>>
>> > > > > But Guinn was again in error. His assumptions were false. Western
>> > > > > Cartridge Company had produced ammunition for the 6.5 Mannlicher-
>e
>> > > > > mainstream of sellers and distributors. This had been told to the
>> > > > > Warren Commission fourteen years before Guinn testified:
>>
>-
>> > > > > Western) advised the Western Cartridge Company ... manufactured a
>> > > > > quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian
>n
>> > > > > Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type of ammunition=
> was
>> > > > > sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequentl=
>y was
>> > > > > distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers and individ=
>ual
>> > > > > purchasers." (WC Exhibit 2694, Vol XXVI, p. 62)
>>
>> > > > > 3. The purpose of Mr. Wolf's question and Dr. Guinn's answer was
>> > > > > clearly to establish the comprehensiveness of the work at Guinn's
>n had
>> > > > > evaded his testing. Once again, Dr. Guinn's answer is at variance=
> with
>> > > > > known facts.
>>
>> > > > > CONCLUSIONS
>>
>> > > > > 1. It is troubling that Dr. Guinn made blanket statements about t=
>he
>> > > > > characteristics of WCC Mannlicher-Carcano bullets while unaware o=
>f the
>> > > > > existence of Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition from production lots h=
>e had
>> > > > > never tested.
>>
>> > > > > Oswald's ammo could have come from:
>> > > > > Western Cartridge Company had produced ammunition for the 6.5
>way
>> > > > > into the mainstream of sellers and distributors. This had been to=
>ld to
>> > > > > the Warren Commission fourteen years before Guinn testified:
>>
>> > > > Oswald's ammo could have come from: Western Cartridge Company had
>> > > > produced ammunition for the 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano before 1954 and
>d
>> > > > distributors.
>>
>> > > > Oswald's ammo??? Oswald never had any ammo..... ( at least none to
>ed
>> > > > "Sniper's Nest", That CIA ammo was NOT available to the general
>> > > > public. The Cubans who were being trained by Bannister and Ferrie
>ve
>> > > > walked off with some of it.
>>
>> > > > > REMEMBER?
>-
>> > > > > Western) advised the Western Cartridge Company ... manufactured a
>> > > > > quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian
>n
>> > > > > Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type of ammunition=
> was
>> > > > > sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequentl=
>y was
>> > > > > distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers and individ=
>ual
>> > > > > purchasers." (WC Exhibit 2694, Vol XXVI, p. 62)- Hide quoted text=
> -
>>
>> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> > > > - Show quoted text -
>>
>>
>> > > > Oswald's ammo??? =A0Oswald never had any ammo..... ( at least none =
>to
>> > > > fire).... He MAY? have had the ammo that was planted in the so call=
>ed
>> > > > "Sniper's Nest", =A0That CIA ammo was NOT available to the general
>> > > > public. =A0The Cubans who were being trained by Bannister and Ferri=
>e
>> > > > (CIA) to invade Cuba certainly had access to that ammo and could ha=
>ve
>> > > > walked off with some of it.
>>
>> > > Was that a BB gun that Lee used to shoot at Walker?
>> > > Walker's house
>>
>> > LOL!! Oh YES he does!
>>
>> > Quote on
>>
>> > the
>> > bullet through Walker's window. What his motive was, and if he
>> > intended to kill Walker remains a mystery. It's very doubful that he
>> > intended to kill Walker because according to the evidence Walker was
>> > a
>> > "sitting duck" who Oswald could not have missed if he had intended to
>> > hit him. The distance from the fence to the window was less than 100
You mean like people who claim that a photo must be forged because the chin
doesn't match other photos, then denies that the chin difference is evidence?
Or that Oswald didn't wear a watch, didn't own a watch, a watch wasn't found
among his possessions, and no eyewitness to his wearing a watch could be found,
despite the fact that each of those assertions is false?
Or like people who deny that there's any evidence at all that Oswald traveled to
Mexico City?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ben Holmes
Learn to Make Money with a Website - http://www.burningknife.com
Bud
So, your contention is that rifle companies were selling a rifle
that you couldn`t get ammo for unless you were in the CIA, is that
right retard?
> The Cubans who were being trained by Bannister and Ferrie
> (CIA) to invade Cuba certainly had access to that ammo and could have
> walked off with some of it.
You make a big deal that it can`t be shown that Oswald had this
ammo. Yet you have just as much evidence that Ferrie or Bannister had
this ammo, and you have no trouble believing they did.
Bud
Do you have ny proof that the person who shot JFK wasn`t aiming at
LBJ, retard?
> When was that bullet fired through walker's Window?? Could it have
> been fired during the day and then later that night a firecracker was
> set off to sound like a single gunshot??
Yah, maybe they set off a firecracker to cover the noise of the
gunshot they fired during the day.
> Walker claimed that he just sat there behind his desk for a time after
> the sound of the "shot" so if the shooter was firing a Mannlicher
> Carcano he could have fired FIVE more times and INSURED that walker
> had been hit if that was his INTENTION.
You assume Oswald knew he missed. It appears he applied lessons he
learned in this assassination attempt in his later assassination
attempt.
Raymond
Maybe it's because I'm a hillbilly and a Republican. That would
account for it.
don't you think?
Walt
I'm not surprised that an imbecile like you wouldn't know that there
were millions of rounds of the ammo that had been manufactured in
Italy and confiscated by the US army when italy surrendered. But
there wasn't any of that high quality CIA ammo available to the
general public..... I defy you to find any of that CIA ammo
advertised in any gun magazine that was published prior to Nov
1963. I can produce dozens of ads for the old Italian made
ammo........
> > The Cubans who were being trained by Bannister and Ferrie
> > (CIA) to invade Cuba certainly had access to that ammo and could have
> > walked off with some of it.
>
> You make a big deal that it can`t be shown that Oswald had this
> ammo. Yet you have just as much evidence that Ferrie or Bannister had
> this ammo, and you have no trouble believing they did.
Duh..... It's common knowledge that ferrie was CIA...... And It's
common knowledge that Ferrie was training cuban "Freedom Fighters" for
the invasion of Cuba. It's also common knowledge that the Cubans were
using Mannlicher Carcanos that the CIA had bought and stamped "Made in
Italy". It's also common knowledge that Oswald was affiliated with
Ferrie in the summer of 1963 when ferrie was running the training
camps in Louisiana. Question;..... Do you think that Oswald could
not have received the spent shells and the live round from David
Ferrie??
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
> > > REMEMBER?
> > > "on March 23, 1964, Mr. R. W. Botts (District Manager, Winchester-
> > > Western) advised the Western Cartridge Company ... manufactured a
> > > quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian
> > > government during World War II. At the end of the war, the Italian
> > > Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type of ammunition was
> > > sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequently was
> > > distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers and individual
Walt
Well, a weak excuse is better than no excuse at all...... However
blaming your cowardice on being a William who lives in "the hills" or
a Replublican is really weak.... What does being either have to do
with the fear of using your God given senses and brain?
Bud
This site, dedicated to the Carcano, says "These rounds (WCC Carcano
ammunition) found their way into the surplus market of the early
60`s."
http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/ammo/history.html
> I defy you to find any of that CIA ammo
> advertised in any gun magazine that was published prior to Nov
> 1963. I can produce dozens of ads for the old Italian made
> ammo........
>
> > > The Cubans who were being trained by Bannister and Ferrie
> > > (CIA) to invade Cuba certainly had access to that ammo and could have
> > > walked off with some of it.
>
> > You make a big deal that it can`t be shown that Oswald had this
> > ammo. Yet you have just as much evidence that Ferrie or Bannister had
> > this ammo, and you have no trouble believing they did.
>
> Duh..... It's common knowledge that ferrie was CIA...... And It's
> common knowledge that Ferrie was training cuban "Freedom Fighters" for
> the invasion of Cuba. It's also common knowledge that the Cubans were
> using Mannlicher Carcanos that the CIA had bought and stamped "Made in
> Italy". It's also common knowledge that Oswald was affiliated with
> Ferrie in the summer of 1963 when ferrie was running the training
> camps in Louisiana.
All this "common knowledge" you claim doesn`t put Carcano ammunition
in their possession, retard. Oswald`s rifle did contain a Carcano
bullet, but as usual, what is in evidence is disregarded in favor of
evidence a retard imagines.
> Question;..... Do you think that Oswald could
> not have received the spent shells and the live round from David
> Ferrie??
Do you think that Castro could have put Oswald up to killing
Kennedy?
Walt
No.... I believe that Lee Oswald was an agent for the US
government...NOT the Cuban government.
Walt
The Dud wrote:...."Oswald`s rifle did contain a Carcano bullet,".....
Astute deduction Sherlock!..... What cartridge would you expect to
find in the chamber of a 6.5mm Mannlicher Carcano..... A 300
Winchester magnum. perhaps?....Idiot!
Bud
Should have said "WCC bullet". The point being that you have no
evidence Ferrie had any.
Walt
Here ya Sherlock..... I'll draw you a picture..... The CIA had 6.5mm
Mannlicher Carcano ammo manufactured for the Mannlicher Carcano rifles
that they had bought for the Cuban exiles. David Ferrie was the CIA
officer who was in charge of training those Cuban exiles. Only a
simpleton would have trouble adding up these facts and seeing the
picture.
robcap...@netscape.com
> In article <1740bd31-74ac-46cf-a308-bd966fc79...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
> robcap...@netscape.com says...
> >Take a hike government agent man!
>
> >JFK shot at Love Field! NOW that is a good one IF YOU ARE TRYING TO
> >DISCREDIT THE CT SIDE!
>
> You mean like people who claim that a photo must be forged because the chin
> doesn't match other photos, then denies that the chin difference is evidence?
Who denied this liar??? What I denied was that it was EVIDENCE THAT
LHO DID IT HIMSELF!!
YOU and your homo lover claimed LHO did it himself and then gave us
this point as evidence! It doesn't cut it liar.
When you have to lie to make your point all you have done is shown you
are willing to lie to make your point!
> Or that Oswald didn't wear a watch, didn't own a watch, a watch wasn't found
> among his possessions, and no eyewitness to his wearing a watch could be found,
> despite the fact that each of those assertions is false?
Lie all you want government agent man, IT WON'T change the truth.
MY point was LHO was NOT seen or known to wear a watch between the
time of the alleged BY photo session (3/31/63) and the assassination.
YOU gave us Marina's tesitmony as evidence for your claim that he did
and she EVEN SAID HIS WATCH BROKE IN 10/62 AND HE NEVER HAD IT FIXED
AS HE PURCHASED THE "LEE" BRACELET INSTEAD!
YOU also failed to prove the watch CLAIMED to be LHO's in the Paine's
garage was REALLY HIS WATCH TOO!
Why don't you prove each statement is false?? I doubt you will because
I gave you months to do so before and you FAILED as usual.
The ONLY false accusation is YOURS!
> Or like people who deny that there's any evidence at all that Oswald traveled to
> Mexico City?
Never said there wasn't, I said there was NONE that proved or showed
he actually went. YOU are the lamebrain who claimed there was
"overwhelming evidence" that he went! Then of course you FAILED to
list any beyond a name in a fake diary and a phony letter!
Quote on
Tis simple... he went to Mexico. The evidence is quite overwhelming.
He was *also* impersonated there. (Ben Holmes – 1/28/09)
Quote off
It is so "overwhelming" that the liar going by the name of Ben Holmes
RAN FROM DISCUSSING IT! OF course the liar would claim I did when I
was ready, willing and able to discuss the letter and Silvia Duran's
name in the fake diary!
Quote on
*YOU* are asserting that Oswald never went to Mexico - yet you refuse
to address
the evidence that he did.
Just like a LNT'er - you simply duck and run from the evidence that
doesn't fit
your faith. (Ben Holmes – 1/28/09)
Quote off
It was nice of him to admit he was RUNNING FROM THE EVIDENCE LIKE A
LNER!
He has NEVER shown how Silvia Duran's name in LHO's alleged diary
proves he went to Mexico City! EVEN if the diary is real, how does
this prove he went?
Stumpy has been running from this question for a long time now!
Bud
> On Nov 25, 1:11 am,Bud<sirsl...@fast.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 24, 9:14 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
>
> > > > On Nov 24, 6:08 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
I`m not retarded, Walt, I don`t draw these pretty pictures in my
head for my own amusement.
>
>
> > > but as usual, what is in evidence is disregarded in favor of
>
> > > > evidence a retard imagines.
>
> > > > > Question;..... Do you think that Oswald could
> > > > > not have received the spent shells and the live round from David
> > > > > Ferrie??
>
> > > > Do you think that Castro could have put Oswald up to killing
> > > > Kennedy?
>
> > > > > > .
>
> > > > > > > > REMEMBER?
> > > > > > > > "on March 23, 1964, Mr. R. W. Botts (District Manager, Winchester-
> > > > > > > > Western) advised the Western Cartridge Company ... manufactured a
> > > > > > > > quantity of 6.5 M/M Mannlicher-Carcano ammunition for the Italian
> > > > > > > > government during World War II. At the end of the war, the Italian
> > > > > > > > Carcano rifle, and no telling how much of this type of ammunition was
> > > > > > > > sold to the United States gun brokers and dealers and subsequently was
> > > > > > > > distributed by direct sales to wholesalers, retailers and individual
> > > > > > > > purchasers." (WC Exhibit 2694, Vol XXVI, p. 62)- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted
>
> ...
>
> read more »
Ben Holmes
robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
>On Nov 24, 2:43=A0pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>> In article <1740bd31-74ac-46cf-a308-bd966fc79...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups=>> >JFK shot at Love Field! =A0NOW that is a good one IF YOU ARE TRYING TO
>> >DISCREDIT THE CT SIDE!
>>
>> You mean like people who claim that a photo must be forged because the chin
>> doesn't match other photos, then denies that the chin difference is
>> evidence?
>
>Who denied this liar???
You did, stupid. I warned you that it was self-destructive to your own
arguments. But you went ahead and did so anyway.
>What I denied was that it was EVIDENCE THAT
>LHO DID IT HIMSELF!!
You denied that it was evidence. And yet, as you certainly must know, it is
indeed evidence.
>YOU and your homo lover claimed LHO did it himself and then gave us
>this point as evidence! It doesn't cut it liar.
Sorry stupid, it is indeed evidence.
>When you have to lie to make your point all you have done is shown you
>are willing to lie to make your point!
If you deny again that you said the chin difference wasn't evidence, I'll merely
quote you.
>> Or that Oswald didn't wear a watch, didn't own a watch, a watch wasn't found
>> among his possessions, and no eyewitness to his wearing a watch could be
>> found, despite the fact that each of those assertions is false?
>
>Lie all you want government agent man, IT WON'T change the truth.
Yes, you did indeed get nailed on each of those lies. Oswald did wear a watch,
although quite obviously not all the time, in fact, probably only a very small
percentage of the time.
You did indeed state that a watch wasn't found among his belongings, and yet,
that also is a lie.
You argued that no eyewitness to Oswald wearing a watch could be found, I quoted
Marina on that exact issue... again, you lied. (in fact, you never retracted
your original statement.)
>MY point was LHO was NOT seen or known to wear a watch between the
>time of the alleged BY photo session (3/31/63) and the assassination.
Totally meaningless. He was also not seen to eat during that time period... no
eyewitness could step forth to assert that Oswald drew normal human sustenance.
Are we then to suppose that he sustained himself on water and air?
>YOU gave us Marina's tesitmony as evidence
As evidence that there WAS an eyewitness... if you lie, I can simply quote the
original along with the context.
>for your claim that he did
>and she EVEN SAID HIS WATCH BROKE IN 10/62 AND HE NEVER HAD IT FIXED
>AS HE PURCHASED THE "LEE" BRACELET INSTEAD!
She testified to Oswald's ownership of a wristwatch - something you denied
existed. She was indeed an eyewitness, and did indeed testify to Oswald wearing
a watch.
>YOU also failed to prove the watch CLAIMED to be LHO's in the Paine's
>garage was REALLY HIS WATCH TOO!
Moron, aren't you?
>Why don't you prove each statement is false??
The evidence does that. I don't need to do anything other than reference it.
>I doubt you will because
>I gave you months to do so before and you FAILED as usual.
>
>The ONLY false accusation is YOURS!
Why not quote your original assertions, and let's compare them to the actual
evidence?
Or why not simply present the evidence for your claims?
>> Or like people who deny that there's any evidence at all that Oswald
>> traveled to Mexico City?
>
>Never said there wasn't, I said there was NONE that proved or showed
>he actually went.
Why lie, stupid?
I cited several pieces of evidence, and you denied that they were evidence.
>YOU are the lamebrain who claimed there was
>"overwhelming evidence" that he went!
Yep... even gave an embarrassing list of CT'er authors who agree with me.
You promptly lied about what they said... and have been unable to document a
single assertion that you made.
>Then of course you FAILED to
>list any beyond a name in a fake diary and a phony letter!
See? Still no evidence.
>Quote on
>
>Tis simple... he went to Mexico. The evidence is quite overwhelming.
>
>He was *also* impersonated there. (Ben Holmes =96 1/28/09)
>
>Quote off
Both statements are still true.
>It is so "overwhelming" that the liar going by the name of Ben Holmes
>RAN FROM DISCUSSING IT!
The 50 or 100 posts on the topic would make nonsense of your assertion.
>OF course the liar would claim I did when I
>was ready, willing and able to discuss the letter and Silvia Duran's
>name in the fake diary!
When you refuse to even admit the possibility of any evidence that Oswald
traveled to Mexico, you illustrate your faith, nothing more.
>Quote on
>
>*YOU* are asserting that Oswald never went to Mexico - yet you refuse
>to address the evidence that he did.
>
>Just like a LNT'er - you simply duck and run from the evidence that
>doesn't fit your faith. (Ben Holmes =96 1/28/09)
Yep... still true. It's downright amazing that each time you quote my actual
words, they're still true.
>Quote off
>
>It was nice of him to admit he was RUNNING FROM THE EVIDENCE LIKE A
>LNER!
"Just like a LNT'er - you simply duck and run from the evidence that doesn't fit
your faith." (Ben Holmes 1/28/09)
Can't read, can you?
>He has NEVER shown how Silvia Duran's name in LHO's alleged diary
>proves he went to Mexico City!
You've *NEVER* proved that you are a CT'er.
>EVEN if the diary is real, how does
>this prove he went?
I *did* discuss this.
>Stumpy has been running from this question for a long time now!
Caught in so many lies, you don't know which way to turn...
Ed Dolan
> The JFK Commerative Cartridge
>
> The story;
> The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle were part of a
> batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il.
> They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid
> during the Greek civil war.
False! They were ordered by Army Ordnance for the ITALIAN government
They were shipped from the manufacturer to the Raritan (NJ) arsenal
for further shipment to Italy After the firs batch was shipped the
Italians canceled the rest The Army sold the rest on the open market
to be rid of them,It was from these that Oswald's cartridges came.
s/f Dlaan
Walt
> On Nov 23, 10:16 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > The JFK Commerative Cartridge
>
> > The story;
> > The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle were part of a
> > batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il.
> > They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid
> > during the Greek civil war.
>
> False! They were ordered by Army Ordnance for the ITALIAN government
> They were shipped from the manufacturer to the Raritan (NJ) arsenal
> for further shipment to Italy After the firs batch was shipped the
> Italians canceled the rest The Army sold the rest on the open market
> to be rid of them,It was from these that Oswald's cartridges came.
> s/f Dlaan
WHEN??... Were they manufactured .....and WHEN?? were they shipped??
Walt
Hey Raymond...... If you've got just one good eye you don't need these
"exprt" liars. Just compare the FBI phot of the Walker bullet (CE
573) with the FBI photo of the "Magic bullet" ( CE 399)
Anybody with one good eye can see that the serrations are coarser on
the Magic bullet. Ammunition manufacturers place identifiying
"signatures" on the ammo they manufacture. American ammo
manufacturers place serrations in the cannelure and the number of
serrations per inch is their "signature. The FBI found that the
"magic bullet" ( CE 399) was made by Western Cartridge Company and
officials from WCC confirmed that their company had manufactured CE
399. WHY didn't the FBI ask the WCC company officials if they had
manufactured the Walker bullet??
Perhaps they KNEW that the Walker bullet had NOT been manufactured by
WCC and they wanted the public to believe the bullet connected the two
shootings.
Walt
Duh!..... the evidence shows that Oswald had gone to great lengths in
staging the Walker incident. If Oswald had gone to lengths he did to
get a shot at Walker, and he was bent on killing him, don't you think
he would have made sure that he's accomplished the job?? He had
planned the episode for weeks by taking photos of Wakler's house and
the surrounding area.
According to Walker himself , he just sat there like a stationary
target in a shooting gallery. So IF Oswald was in fact alone, and IF
in fact Oswald was the man who pulled the trigger, and IF in fact
Oswald intended to KILL Walker he certainly had ample time to ensure
he had accomplished the job.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
robcap...@netscape.com
> In article <3927176e-4d0c-45c1-8a8d-291213470...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,
> robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >On Nov 24, 2:43=A0pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
> >> In article <1740bd31-74ac-46cf-a308-bd966fc79...@p32g2000vbi.googlegroups=
> >.com>,
> >> robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
> >> >Take a hike government agent man!
>
> >> >JFK shot at Love Field! =A0NOW that is a good one IF YOU ARE TRYING TO
> >> >DISCREDIT THE CT SIDE!
>
> >> You mean like people who claim that a photo must be forged because the chin
> >> doesn't match other photos, then denies that the chin difference is
> >> evidence?
>
> >Who denied this liar???
>
> You did, stupid. I warned you that it was self-destructive to your own
> arguments. But you went ahead and did so anyway.
Show I denied what you claim! That discussion was in reference to LHO
altering his own chin!
Twisting the truth won't save you!
> >What I denied was that it was EVIDENCE THAT
> >LHO DID IT HIMSELF!!
>
> You denied that it was evidence. And yet, as you certainly must know, it is
> indeed evidence.
This same retort is old liar. I denied it was evidence in SUPPORT OF
YOUR CLAIM -- which was LHO altered his own chin!
> >YOU and your homo lover claimed LHO did it himself and then gave us
> >this point as evidence! It doesn't cut it liar.
>
> Sorry stupid, it is indeed evidence.
NOT for showing LHO did it himself.
> >When you have to lie to make your point all you have done is shown you
> >are willing to lie to make your point!
>
> If you deny again that you said the chin difference wasn't evidence, I'll merely
> quote you.
Go ahead, and make sure you quote that part about it NOT BEING
EVIDENCE for showing LHO altered the chin himself!
But of course this deceiver won't.
> >> Or that Oswald didn't wear a watch, didn't own a watch, a watch wasn't found
> >> among his possessions, and no eyewitness to his wearing a watch could be
> >> found, despite the fact that each of those assertions is false?
>
> >Lie all you want government agent man, IT WON'T change the truth.
>
> Yes, you did indeed get nailed on each of those lies. Oswald did wear a watch,
> although quite obviously not all the time, in fact, probably only a very small
> percentage of the time.
He did? Did he wear one between the time of the alleged BY photo
session and the assassination? That is the time I was referring to and
you never showed he did.
Lied, didn't you?
> You did indeed state that a watch wasn't found among his belongings, and yet,
> that also is a lie.
It wasn't. A watch was found, but it was NEVER proven or showed to be
LHO's. YOUR claim was it was definitely his.
Lied, didn't you?
> You argued that no eyewitness to Oswald wearing a watch could be found, I quoted
> Marina on that exact issue... again, you lied. (in fact, you never retracted
> your original statement.)
Was her claim between 3/31/63 and 11/22/63?? That was the time I was
talking about -- NOT 1960!
Lied, didn't you?
> >MY point was LHO was NOT seen or known to wear a watch between the
> >time of the alleged BY photo session (3/31/63) and the assassination.
>
> Totally meaningless.
ONLY to a liar like you! Of course it is relevant as we are
discussing the BY photos and the assassination, NOT his whole life!
Why is this time period meaningless to this LNer? Because Marina said
his watch broke in 10/62 and he did NOT have it fixed!
> He was also not seen to eat during that time period... no
> eyewitness could step forth to assert that Oswald drew normal human sustenance.
> Are we then to suppose that he sustained himself on water and air?
Distraction won't save you. I made the time period CLEAR upfront, but
being the liar and deceiver you are, YOU ignored it.
> >YOU gave us Marina's tesitmony as evidence
>
> As evidence that there WAS an eyewitness... if you lie, I can simply quote the
> original along with the context.
Go ahead. She did NOT say she saw him wear one on 3/31 or anytime up
to the assasination because he purchased the "Lee" bracelet instead.
NO wonder he runs from the time period given. What a distorter this
WC shill is, huh?
> >for your claim that he did
> >and she EVEN SAID HIS WATCH BROKE IN 10/62 AND HE NEVER HAD IT FIXED
> >AS HE PURCHASED THE "LEE" BRACELET INSTEAD!
>
> She testified to Oswald's ownership of a wristwatch - something you denied
> existed. She was indeed an eyewitness, and did indeed testify to Oswald wearing
> a watch.
What year did you say he wore a wristwatch? Unless it is 1963 who
cares! As for ownership he did own one, but you can't prove the one
they found in the Paine's garage was that watch, now can you?
> >YOU also failed to prove the watch CLAIMED to be LHO's in the Paine's
> >garage was REALLY HIS WATCH TOO!
>
> Moron, aren't you?
See? He knows he can't so he relies on insults instead. Most liars do
this.
> >Why don't you prove each statement is false??
>
> The evidence does that. I don't need to do anything other than reference it.
LOL!! NO evidence you gave us proves anything, and you have said you
do NOT care about proving anything!
“I already told you, Rob... I have no intention of *EVER* providing
"proof"... for obvious reasons.” (Bendsie Holmes)
> >I doubt you will because
> >I gave you months to do so before and you FAILED as usual.
>
> >The ONLY false accusation is YOURS!
>
> Why not quote your original assertions, and let's compare them to the actual
> evidence?
Why don't you do the work since you are the one making the claims?
> Or why not simply present the evidence for your claims?
They are YOUR claims and it has been shown the points we discuss you
LIED about.
> >> Or like people who deny that there's any evidence at all that Oswald
> >> traveled to Mexico City?
>
> >Never said there wasn't, I said there was NONE that proved or showed
> >he actually went.
>
> Why lie, stupid?
I ask you this all the time. We DISCUSSED THE EVIDENCE THE WC GAVE us
so why would I say there was NONE? YOU ARE A DUMB LIAR!
> I cited several pieces of evidence, and you denied that they were evidence.
I denied they showed he went. YOU lied and we all know it.
> >YOU are the lamebrain who claimed there was
> >"overwhelming evidence" that he went!
>
> Yep... even gave an embarrassing list of CT'er authors who agree with me.
NONE of them said there was "overwhelming" evidence he went. Most of
them leave it open as to whether he went or not.
MOST of the really good ones say he did not go.
> You promptly lied about what they said... and have been unable to document a
> single assertion that you made.
I said you paraphrased, and you did, to hide what they really
thought.
YOU lied, tis that simple.
> >Then of course you FAILED to
> >list any beyond a name in a fake diary and a phony letter!
>
> See? Still no evidence.
What does it show or prove? It is evidence, just of the worthless
kind. It is hardly "overwhelming" like you lied about.
> >Quote on
>
> >Tis simple... he went to Mexico. The evidence is quite overwhelming.
>
> >He was *also* impersonated there. (Ben Holmes =96 1/28/09)
>
> >Quote off
>
> Both statements are still true.
LOL! Liar, aren't you? The evidence the WC gave us is NOT
overwhelming, and the blantant claim he did go is false too.
> >It is so "overwhelming" that the liar going by the name of Ben Holmes
> >RAN FROM DISCUSSING IT!
>
> The 50 or 100 posts on the topic would make nonsense of your assertion.
YOU disussed one item -- the diary. Since anyone with a brain knows
this is NOT overwhelming in terms of showing he went, where is the
rest of it?
> >OF course the liar would claim I did when I
> >was ready, willing and able to discuss the letter and Silvia Duran's
> >name in the fake diary!
>
> When you refuse to even admit the possibility of any evidence that Oswald
> traveled to Mexico, you illustrate your faith, nothing more.
Who said this liar? This is your common tactic, but it is false. I am
happy to disucss the WC's evidence BECAUSE IT NEVER SUPPORTS THE CLAIM
IT IS TIED TO!
YOU make the same claims the WC did and can't support it any better
than they did.
Hurts, doesn't it WC shill?
> >Quote on
>
> >*YOU* are asserting that Oswald never went to Mexico - yet you refuse
> >to address the evidence that he did.
>
> >Just like a LNT'er - you simply duck and run from the evidence that
> >doesn't fit your faith. (Ben Holmes =96 1/28/09)
>
> Yep... still true. It's downright amazing that each time you quote my actual
> words, they're still true.
Liar, aren't you? YOU are the one that runs from showing us the
"overwhelming" evidence that he did go, aren't you?
Why are you so afraid to list it?
> >Quote off
>
> >It was nice of him to admit he was RUNNING FROM THE EVIDENCE LIKE A
> >LNER!
>
> "Just like a LNT'er - you simply duck and run from the evidence that doesn't fit
> your faith." (Ben Holmes 1/28/09)
>
> Can't read, can you?
YOU are a liar, and a coward, tis that simple.
> >He has NEVER shown how Silvia Duran's name in LHO's alleged diary
> >proves he went to Mexico City!
>
> You've *NEVER* proved that you are a CT'er.
Run Stumpy, run. It won't save you Reitzes.
> >EVEN if the diary is real, how does
> >this prove he went?
>
> I *did* discuss this.
NO you did NOT liar. Simply add the link then for us to go and see.
> >Stumpy has been running from this question for a long time now!
>
> Caught in so many lies, you don't know which way to turn...
Self-reflection is good for the soul, nice of you to admit what you
do!
Ben Holmes
robcap...@netscape.com says...
>
>On Nov 25, 6:57=A0pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>> In article <3927176e-4d0c-45c1-8a8d-291213470...@c34g2000yqn.googlegroups=
>.com>,
>> robcap...@netscape.com says...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Nov 24, 2:43=3DA0pm, Ben Holmes <ad...@burningknife.com> wrote:
>> >> In article <1740bd31-74ac-46cf-a308-bd966fc79...@p32g2000vbi.googlegro=
>ups=3D>> >> >JFK shot at Love Field! =3DA0NOW that is a good one IF YOU ARE TRYING=
> TO
>> >> >DISCREDIT THE CT SIDE!
>>
> chin
>> >> doesn't match other photos, then denies that the chin difference is
>> >> evidence?
>>
>> >Who denied this liar???
>>
>> You did, stupid. I warned you that it was self-destructive to your own
>> arguments. But you went ahead and did so anyway.
>
>Show I denied what you claim! That discussion was in reference to LHO
>altering his own chin!
>
>Twisting the truth won't save you!
***************************************************
�The appearance of the chin in the photo. The fact that Oswald did
photographic work.� (Ben Holmes � 11/17/09)
This is NOT evidence liar, it is speculation!
***************************************************
It's clear to any intelligent reader that you did indeed deny that Oswald's chin
appearance in photos wasn't evidence. You stated "This is NOT evidence..." so
why do you deny it now?
>> >What I denied was that it was EVIDENCE THAT
>> >LHO DID IT HIMSELF!!
>>
>> You denied that it was evidence. And yet, as you certainly must know,
>> it is indeed evidence.
>
>This same retort is old liar. I denied it was evidence in SUPPORT OF
>YOUR CLAIM -- which was LHO altered his own chin!
"This is NOT evidence liar, it is speculation!" Nothing in there about it not
being evidence in support of a specific "claim".
Lied, didn't you?
>> >YOU and your homo lover claimed LHO did it himself and then gave us
>> >this point as evidence! It doesn't cut it liar.
>>
>> Sorry stupid, it is indeed evidence.
>
>NOT for showing LHO did it himself.
It's simple to prove otherwise... let us presume for a moment that there is a
roomful of eyewitnesses and a video of Oswald making the alteration and
explaining to the camera what he was doing.
If *that* were known history, no-one would believe that the alteration seen in
his chin in photos was NOT additional evidence (along with the roomful of
eyewitnesses and the video) that Oswald did it.
But because additional evidence isn't there, suddenly *THIS* isn't "evidence"
either.
But I suspect that you're too stupid to follow such an easy example of simple
logic.
>> >When you have to lie to make your point all you have done is shown you
>> >are willing to lie to make your point!
>>
>> If you deny again that you said the chin difference wasn't evidence, I'll
>> merely quote you.
>
>Go ahead, and make sure you quote that part about it NOT BEING
>EVIDENCE for showing LHO altered the chin himself!
I can't quote what you didn't say, stupid. Here it is again:
***************************************************
�The appearance of the chin in the photo. The fact that Oswald did
photographic work.� (Ben Holmes � 11/17/09)
This is NOT evidence liar, it is speculation!
***************************************************
>But of course this deceiver won't.
Just did, stupid.
>> >> Or that Oswald didn't wear a watch, didn't own a watch, a watch
>> >> wasn't found among his possessions, and no eyewitness to his
>> >> wearing a watch could be
>> >> found, despite the fact that each of those assertions is false?
>>
>> >Lie all you want government agent man, IT WON'T change the truth.
>>
>> Yes, you did indeed get nailed on each of those lies. Oswald did
>> wear a watch, although quite obviously not all the time, in fact,
>> probably only a very small percentage of the time.
>
>He did?
I've provided two photos of him wearing a watch, as well as an eyewitness.
You've provided ZERO evidence to the contrary.
>Did he wear one between the time of the alleged BY photo
>session and the assassination?
Did Oswald eat between the time of the alleged BY photo session and the
assassination?
>That is the time I was referring to and
>you never showed he did.
Your argument falls completely apart once you admit that Oswald owned a watch,
and was known to wear it.
>Lied, didn't you?
Why not quote the "lie", and provide the cite that shows it to be a lie???
>> You did indeed state that a watch wasn't found among his belongings,
>> and yet, that also is a lie.
>
>It wasn't.
Of course it was. A watch was indeed inventoried among his possessions.
>A watch was found, but it was NEVER proven or showed to be
>LHO's.
Was it inventoried? Was it found among his possession? Did anyone else try to
claim it?
>YOUR claim was it was definitely his.
Sorry stupid, but the presumption is quite clear. Indeed, even a *LEGAL*
presumption. For otherwise, the police were simply thieves.
>Lied, didn't you?
Lied, didn't you?
>> You argued that no eyewitness to Oswald wearing a watch could be found,
>> I quoted Marina on that exact issue... again, you lied. (in fact, you
>> never retracted your original statement.)
>
>Was her claim between 3/31/63 and 11/22/63?? That was the time I was
>talking about -- NOT 1960!
>
>Lied, didn't you?
Well, let's look at your assertion, and see if it was addressing the time period
of 3/31/63 to 11/22/63 as you claim:
************************************************
> Address the watch for us.
> What watch??? There is NO watch visible in CE 133A
There is one, and NOT one person could be found to say LHO ever seen
wearing a watch.
************************************************
"...NOT one person could be found to say LHO ever seen wearing a watch"
"EVER SEEN WEARING A WATCH"
Since when does the word "EVER" refer to a specified time period?
Lied, didn't you?
>> >MY point was LHO was NOT seen or known to wear a watch between the
>> >time of the alleged BY photo session (3/31/63) and the assassination.
>>
>> Totally meaningless.
>
>ONLY to a liar like you! Of course it is relevant as we are
>discussing the BY photos and the assassination, NOT his whole life!
>
>Why is this time period meaningless to this LNer? Because Marina said
>his watch broke in 10/62 and he did NOT have it fixed!
Your argument makes sense only if Oswald was *NOT* known to own or wear a watch.
>> He was also not seen to eat during that time period... no
>> eyewitness could step forth to assert that Oswald drew normal human
>> sustenance. Are we then to suppose that he sustained himself on water
>> and air?
>
>Distraction won't save you. I made the time period CLEAR upfront, but
>being the liar and deceiver you are, YOU ignored it.
Sorry stupid, it's not "distraction", it's PRECISELY the same argument that
you're making, simply utilizing a different subject.
>> >YOU gave us Marina's tesitmony as evidence
>>
>> As evidence that there WAS an eyewitness... if you lie, I can simply
>> quote the original along with the context.
>
>Go ahead. She did NOT say she saw him wear one on 3/31 or anytime up
>to the assasination because he purchased the "Lee" bracelet instead.
Your assertion was that "NOT one person could be found to say LHO ever seen
wearing a watch." - and Marina's testimony shows this to be a lie.
>NO wonder he runs from the time period given. What a distorter this
>WC shill is, huh?
What time period? Here's the quote again: "There is one, and NOT one person
could be found to say LHO ever seen wearing a watch." Where's the time period,
moron?
Just what dates does "ever" refer to?
>> >for your claim that he did
>> >and she EVEN SAID HIS WATCH BROKE IN 10/62 AND HE NEVER HAD IT FIXED
>> >AS HE PURCHASED THE "LEE" BRACELET INSTEAD!
>>
>> She testified to Oswald's ownership of a wristwatch - something you denied
>> existed. She was indeed an eyewitness, and did indeed testify to Oswald
>> wearing a watch.
>
>What year did you say he wore a wristwatch?
Was it "ever"?
>Unless it is 1963
No stupid, unless it was "ever".
>who
>cares! As for ownership he did own one, but you can't prove the one
>they found in the Paine's garage was that watch, now can you?
Sorry stupid, I win that presumptive argument.
>> >YOU also failed to prove the watch CLAIMED to be LHO's in the Paine's
>> >garage was REALLY HIS WATCH TOO!
>>
>> Moron, aren't you?
>
>See? He knows he can't so he relies on insults instead. Most liars do
>this.
You're the one implying that the DPD were thieves, not me.
You're the one implying that people would allow the police to take their
property without complaint, not me.
>> >Why don't you prove each statement is false??
>>
>> The evidence does that. I don't need to do anything other than reference it.
>
>LOL!! NO evidence you gave us proves anything, and you have said you
>do NOT care about proving anything!
>
>=93I already told you, Rob... I have no intention of *EVER* providing
>"proof"... for obvious reasons.=94 (Bendsie Holmes)
Yep... still true.
>> >I doubt you will because
>> >I gave you months to do so before and you FAILED as usual.
>>
>> >The ONLY false accusation is YOURS!
>>
>> Why not quote your original assertions, and let's compare them to
>> the actual evidence?
>
>Why don't you do the work since you are the one making the claims?
Went ahead and did so above with your assertion about eyewitnesses.
>> Or why not simply present the evidence for your claims?
>
>They are YOUR claims and it has been shown the points we discuss you
>LIED about.
Who lied about the nonexistence of eyewitnesses to Oswald wearing a watch?
>> >> Or like people who deny that there's any evidence at all that Oswald
>> >> traveled to Mexico City?
>>
>> >Never said there wasn't, I said there was NONE that proved or showed
>> >he actually went.
>>
>> Why lie, stupid?
>
>I ask you this all the time. We DISCUSSED THE EVIDENCE THE WC GAVE us
>so why would I say there was NONE? YOU ARE A DUMB LIAR!
And yet, you said that I'd provided none. Lied, didn't you?
>> I cited several pieces of evidence, and you denied that they were
>> evidence.
>
>I denied they showed he went. YOU lied and we all know it.
No stupid, you denied that I'd provided evidence.
>> >YOU are the lamebrain who claimed there was
>> >"overwhelming evidence" that he went!
>>
>> Yep... even gave an embarrassing list of CT'er authors who agree with me.
>
>NONE of them said there was "overwhelming" evidence he went.
None of them said that Santa wears a red suit, either.
But they all agreed that the evidence shows that Oswald traveled to Mexico City.
>Most of
>them leave it open as to whether he went or not.
Untrue... You keep lying about this, and refusing to quote any of those authors
in support of your lie.
>MOST of the really good ones say he did not go.
Again, simply untrue. No cites, no quotes, no evidence at all... just a naked
lie.
>> You promptly lied about what they said... and have been unable to
>> document a single assertion that you made.
>
>I said you paraphrased,
I QUOTED their exact words... as you well know.
Let's look at the original post, and see if anyone can find a "paraphrase":'
*************************************************************
Rob states: "...I asserted that LHO did NOT go to Mexico City!"
What is his evidence for this?
"I gave a bunch of authors who have stated there is NO proof LHO
ever went to Mexico City."
Sadly, Rob can't quote them, so we can see whether or not he's being truthful...
but I was perfectly willing to do so. I presented a list of "real CT'ers who
*DO* state that LHO went to Mexico. Here it is again, with some further
additions:
Harold Weisberg, WC Shill - "He made a brief trip to Mexico at the end of
September 1963 and returned to Dallas" - Whitewash, pg. 43
Gerald McKnight, WC Shill - "As discussed in Chapter 3, there is a hard
certainty that someone was impersonating Oswald while he was in Mexico City..."
- Breach of Trust, pg 328
Michael Kurtz, WC Shill - "The mysterious trip that Lee Harvey Oswald made to
Mexico City..." - JFK Assassination Debates, pg 169
Henry Hurt, WC Shill - "Out of all this confusion arises the strong possibility
that while the real Oswald may have been in Mexico City, the person who
presented himself at the Cuban consulate and at the Soviet embassy was someone
else bearing the real Oswald's papers and passport." Reasonable Doubt, pg 396
Mark North, WC Shill - "Oswald arrives in Mexico City, checking into room 18 of
the Hotel Commercio." - Act of Treason, pg 316
Jim Marrs, WC Shill - "It is apparent to many researchers that while Oswald most
probably did order a rifle and a pistol through the mail and may have made some
sort of trip to Mexico, he likely was following orders from persons he
considered to be his superiors in intelligence." - Crossfire, page 569
Anthony Summers, WC Shill - "There can be no serious doubt that the young man on
the bus and the man in Room 18 was indeed Lee Oswald." - Conspiracy, pg 370
Silvia Meagher, WC Shill - "The literal meaning of this testimony is that,
contrary to the written accounts of the interrogation session provided by Fritz,
Hosty, and Bookhout, Oswald *did* volunteer full information about his trip to
Mexico in September 1963." - Accessories After The Fact, pg 227
John Newman, WC Shill - "Had the CIA shared all it knew about Oswald in Mexico
City with the FBI, John Kennedy might be alive today. That, tragically was part
of the smoke rising from the Oswald files on November 22, 1963." - Oswald And
The CIA, pg 419
David Kaiser, WC Shill - "In any event, Oswald arrived in Mexico City on Friday,
September 27, around 10 a.m. and went directly to the Cuban consulate to attempt
to get a visa to enter Cuba." - The Road to Dallas, pg 266
Peter Dale Scott, WC Shill - "Both Oswald and Ray are said to have visited
Mexico prior to the events for which they were arrested, and in both cases after
the preparations for implicating them had clearly begun." -
http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkgen/AssassinationsDeepEvents...
Edward Jay Epstein, WC Shill - "The same day Oswald crossed the border into
Mexico at Nuevo Laredo, Texas, on a Continental Trailways bus" - Legend, pg 235
Ray & Mary La Fontaine, WC Shills - "Oswald leaves New Orleans on the 24th or
25th, alone, and presumably traveling by bus. He is spotted on a bus in Mexico,
heading for Mexico City. Later he appears at the Cuban and Soviet embassies.
He is denied a visa to enter Cuba. (Though Oswald was photographed several
times, the CIA was never able to produce its surveillance photos of Oswald,
leading some to speculate that he was accompanied by others.)" - Oswald Talked,
pg 354.
Gaeton Fonzi, HSCA Shill - "I believe David Phillip's key role was affirmed when
he lied under oath. The very fact that he *had* to lie - both about his
manipulation of Oswald in Mexico City and his covert operations as Maurice
Biship - was the definitive statement of his guilt." - The Last Investigation,
pg 410
Thomas G. Buchanan, WC Shill - "On September 26th, Lee Oswald, armed with his
new passport, went to Mexico to use it." - Who Killed Kennedy, pg 160
Alan J. Weberman & Michael Canfield, WC Shills - "Traveling by bus, Oswald
arrived in Mexico on September 27, 1963 and checked into the Hotel Commercio." -
Coup D'Etat in America, pg. 47
Sybil Leek & Bert R. Sugar, WC Shills - "There is also the remarkable
coincidence of E. Howard Hunt being the head of the CIA in Mexico City when Lee
Harvey Oswald mad eh is mysterious trip there shortly before the assassination."
- The Assassination Chain, pg. 191
Fabian Escalante, WC Shill - "In summary, Lee Harvey Oswald went to Mexico with
the intention of traveling to Cuba, using the cover that had been created for
him. Due to immigration technicalities that trip was frustrated and this
significantly affected the plan to incriminate him. If the trip had occurred,
the CIA would have had substantial evidence to back up its charges against Fidel
Castro..." - JFK: The Cuba Files, pg. 132
Of course, the 'battle of the secondary sources' is amusing... On a sheer
numbers basis, Robsie has lost. But the issue isn't going to be decided by
adding up the "Real CT'ers" who agree that Oswald went to Mexico, or by adding
up those "Real CT'ers" who believe that the evidence isn't persuasive... the
issue can only be decided by intelligent people by looking at the actual
evidence... the evidence that Robsie will not even look at - indeed, refuses to
admit that even exists.
So where is his evidence that "LHO did NOT go to Mexico City"? People are
wondering...
*************************************************************
Where's the paraphrases, stupid? Can you quote one for us?
Or retract your outright lie?
>and you did, to hide what they really
>thought.
You're a blatant liar, aren't you? Why not quote a *SINGLE* "paraphrase", and
I'll list the source for anyone to check for themselves?
>YOU lied, tis that simple.
You're lying, tis that simple. The proof, should anyone need it, is your
refusal to support your lies.
>> >Then of course you FAILED to
>> >list any beyond a name in a fake diary and a phony letter!
>>
>> See? Still no evidence.
>
>What does it show or prove? It is evidence,
Then why did you assert that I'd provided no evidence?
Are you retracting that assertion now?
>just of the worthless
>kind. It is hardly "overwhelming" like you lied about.
>
>> >Quote on
>>
>> >Tis simple... he went to Mexico. The evidence is quite overwhelming.
>> >He was *also* impersonated there. (Ben Holmes =3D96 1/28/09)
>>
>> >Quote off
>>
>> Both statements are still true.
>
>LOL! Liar, aren't you? The evidence the WC gave us is NOT
>overwhelming, and the blantant claim he did go is false too.
Both statements are still true.
>> >It is so "overwhelming" that the liar going by the name of Ben Holmes
>> >RAN FROM DISCUSSING IT!
>>
>> The 50 or 100 posts on the topic would make nonsense of your assertion.
>
>YOU disussed one item -- the diary. Since anyone with a brain knows
>this is NOT overwhelming in terms of showing he went, where is the
>rest of it?
The 50 or 100 posts on the topic would make nonsense of your assertion.
>> >OF course the liar would claim I did when I
>> >was ready, willing and able to discuss the letter and Silvia Duran's
>> >name in the fake diary!
>>
>> When you refuse to even admit the possibility of any evidence that Oswald
>> traveled to Mexico, you illustrate your faith, nothing more.
>
>Who said this liar?
You did.
***************************************************************
>We recently were engaged in a discussion of Mexico City, if one can
>call it a discussion since Bendsie was AFRAID to list any evidence
>that LHO actually went there,
Indeed, this is one example of the whoppers you keep telling.
Any lurker can go back and review the letter to the Russian Embassy by Oswald
that I first cited (and that you keep lying about), then follow up with my
pointing out of the Silvia Duran notation in his notebook - which you *STILL*
have no reasonable explanation for.
But you will keep right on asserting that I've offered no evidence. What a
kook!
***************************************************************
Are you willing to retract now? Or will you continue to lie?
***************************************************************
>> Yep. Both the Russian Embassy Letter, and the Silvia Duran notation
>> in Oswald's notebook can easily be located by anyone wishing to verify
>> that I offered both as evidence.
>It is CLAIMED evidence since it was NEVER accepted into a court of
>law!
The dictionary contains no such definition of the term "evidence".
***************************************************************
Since there was never a court opportunity for Oswald, there is no "evidence"
according to you.
But you can't provide a definition of "evidence" that fits your apparent
beliefs.
Lied, didn't you?
>This is your common tactic, but it is false. I am
>happy to disucss the WC's evidence BECAUSE IT NEVER SUPPORTS THE CLAIM
>IT IS TIED TO!
No stupid, you deny that any evidence even exists.
>YOU make the same claims the WC did and can't support it any better
>than they did.
Sorry stupid, JFK really *DID* die on 11/22/63.
>Hurts, doesn't it WC shill?
>
>> >Quote on
>>
>> >*YOU* are asserting that Oswald never went to Mexico - yet you refuse
>> >to address the evidence that he did.
>>
>> >Just like a LNT'er - you simply duck and run from the evidence that
>> >doesn't fit your faith. (Ben Holmes =3D96 1/28/09)
>>
>> Yep... still true. It's downright amazing that each time you quote my
>> actual words, they're still true.
>
>Liar, aren't you? YOU are the one that runs from showing us the
>"overwhelming" evidence that he did go, aren't you?
As I carefully explained to you before, if you refuse to admit that what I
already provided is evidence, then nothing else I take the time to list will be
"evidence" either.
>Why are you so afraid to list it?
Why are you so dishonest, stupid?
>> >Quote off
>>
>> >It was nice of him to admit he was RUNNING FROM THE EVIDENCE LIKE A
>> >LNER!
>>
>> "Just like a LNT'er - you simply duck and run from the evidence that
>> doesn't fit your faith." (Ben Holmes 1/28/09)
>>
>> Can't read, can you?
>
>YOU are a liar, and a coward, tis that simple.
Can't read, can you?
>> >He has NEVER shown how Silvia Duran's name in LHO's alleged diary
>> >proves he went to Mexico City!
>>
>> You've *NEVER* proved that you are a CT'er.
>
>Run Stumpy, run. It won't save you Reitzes.
You've *NEVER* proved that you are a CT'er.
>> >EVEN if the diary is real, how does
>> >this prove he went?
>>
>> I *did* discuss this.
>
>NO you did NOT liar. Simply add the link then for us to go and see.
Sorry stupid, you couldn't produce any evidence for your claim that the notebook
was "fictitious".
>> >Stumpy has been running from this question for a long time now!
>>
>> Caught in so many lies, you don't know which way to turn...
>
>Self-reflection is good for the soul, nice of you to admit what you
>do!
Caught in so many lies, you don't know which way to turn...
Bud
> > LBJ, retard?
>
> > > When was that bullet fired through walker's Window?? Could it have
> > > been fired during the day and then later that night a firecracker was
> > > set off to sound like a single gunshot??
>
> > Yah, maybe they set off a firecracker to cover the noise of the
> > gunshot they fired during the day.
>
> > > Walker claimed that he just sat there behind his desk for a time after
> > > the sound of the "shot" so if the shooter was firing a Mannlicher
> > > Carcano he could have fired FIVE more times and INSURED that walker
> > > had been hit if that was his INTENTION.
>
> > You assume Oswald knew he missed.
>
> Duh!..... the evidence shows that Oswald had gone to great lengths in
> staging the Walker incident.
The evidence shows Oswald tried to kill Walker. A retard has gone to
great lengths to create some sort of alternate story.
> If Oswald had gone to lengths he did to
> get a shot at Walker, and he was bent on killing him, don't you think
> he would have made sure that he's accomplished the job??
A retard unsatisfied with reality will always argue against it.
> He had
> planned the episode for weeks by taking photos of Wakler's house and
> the surrounding area.
> According to Walker himself , he just sat there like a stationary
> target in a shooting gallery. So IF Oswald was in fact alone, and IF
> in fact Oswald was the man who pulled the trigger, and IF in fact
> Oswald intended to KILL Walker he certainly had ample time to ensure
> he had accomplished the job.
In what meaningful way have you ruled out Oswald pulling the
trigger, assuming he hit Walker, and leaving?
Walt
The Dud whined:..... "In what meaningful way have you ruled out Oswald
pulling the trigger, assuming he hit Walker, and leaving? "
I'll type this real slow so even the Village idiot should be able to
comprehend........ According to your thinking, Oswald was a
coldblooded killer who was bent on killing Walker. The evidence
(Photos and hand drawn maps of walker's house and the surrounding
area) indicates that Oswald did in fact "APPEAR" to have been
stalking Walker in the weeks before the Walker incident. Did Walker
actually help Oswald create that record??
IF Oswald was in fact a coldblooded killer who stalked his prey and
carefully planned the attack, ...Do you believe that he would have
only fired one shot, and then without knowing whether he had hit that
shooting gallery target, merely jumped up and ran away?? Isn't it
far more logical that IF Oswald had carefully planned to "KILL"
Walker he would have followed through by firing as many shoots as
necessary to ensure he accomplished the task??
>
>
>
> > It appears he applied lessons he> learned in this assassination attempt in his later assassination
> > > attempt.
>
> > > > Was the reason that there was
> > > > only a single shot because that "shot" was actually a firecracker??
>
> > > > > Of course, I supoose you don't believe that LHO was the shooter at
> > > > > Walker's house
>
> > > > > Mr. McDONALD. Did he keep, did Oswald keep, ammunition, cartridges
> > > > > around the apartment?
> > > > > Mrs. PORTER. He kept rifle and I guess ammunition, what you call, all
> > > > > together, and I wasn't fascinated by rifles, so I never took any
> > > > > interest to look at it or
>
Ed Dolan
> On Nov 25, 8:41 pm, Ed Dolan <74030.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 23, 10:16 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > The JFK Commerative Cartridge
>
> > > The story;
> > > The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle were part of a
> > > batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il.
> > > They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid
> > > during the Greek civil war.
>
> > False! They were ordered by Army Ordnance for the ITALIAN government
> > They were shipped from the manufacturer to the Raritan (NJ) arsenal
> > for further shipment to Italy After the firs batch was shipped the
> > Italians canceled the rest The Army sold the rest on the open market
> > to be rid of them,It was from these that Oswald's cartridges came.
> > s/f Dlaan
>
> WHEN??... Were they manufactured .....and WHEN?? were they shipped??
Western caetridge shortky being sent to the Army arsenal.. I would
have to find my documents , I don't know if they state when they were
shipper from the plant. four million rounds were produced. My
documents came from the Marine Corps. It was not interested when the
Army shipped 2 million to Italy.
Bud
So your answer is that in no meaninfgul way can you rule out Oswald
shot and left, but a retard figures this wouldn`t have happened.
Walt
> On Nov 25, 9:59 pm, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 25, 8:41 pm, Ed Dolan <74030.3...@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 23, 10:16 pm, Raymond <Bluerhy...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > The JFK Commerative Cartridge
>
> > > > The story;
> > > > The cartridges recovered with Lee Harvy Oswald's rifle were part of a
> > > > batch made in 1949 by the Western Cartridge Company in East Alton Il.
> > > > They were made for the government of Greece as part of US military aid
> > > > during the Greek civil war.
>
> > > False! They were ordered by Army Ordnance for the ITALIAN government
> > > They were shipped from the manufacturer to the Raritan (NJ) arsenal
> > > for further shipment to Italy After the firs batch was shipped the
> > > Italians canceled the rest The Army sold the rest on the open market
> > > to be rid of them,It was from these that Oswald's cartridges came.
> > > s/f Dlaan
>
> > WHEN??... Were they manufactured .....and WHEN?? were they shipped??
>
> Western caetridge shortky being sent to the Army arsenal.. I would
> have to find my documents , I don't know if they state when they were
> shipper from the plant. four million rounds were produced. My
> documents came from the Marine Corps. It was not interested when the
> Army shipped 2 million to Italy.
>
In other words.... You can't document your claim. I'm not at all
surprised.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -