Re: Oswald "defection" chronology
curtjester1
> jpshin...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > On Jan 6, 1:03 am, greg <magicremovebul...@octa4.net.au> wrote:
>
> >>http://reopenjfkcase.interodent.com/index.php?option=com_content&task...
>
> >>Co-authored by JKO.
>
> >>May be updated periodically.
>
> >>Also check out new poll on Pres. candidates.
>
> >>Which is most likely to be open to a new JFK inquiry?
>
> >>(note: that I have not included a "none of the above" option, as one (or
> >>more) must be more inclined to be open to it than the others - even if
> >>that is still not very open)
>
> >>greghttp://reopenjfkcase.interodent.com
>
> > This document places Golub's announcement about
> > visas in July, not September.
>
> > DISPATCH- COSTILLE'S LUNCH WITH GRIGORY GOLUB
> > RIF#: 104-10172-10301 (07/17/59) CIA#: 80T01357A
>
> >http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=18382
>
> > Paragraph 9: "Golub remarked that now Moscow had given him the authority
> > to give Americans visas without prior approval from Moscow. He stated this
> > would make his job much easier, and as long as he was convinced the
> > American was 'all right' he could give him his visa in a matter of
> > minutes."
>
> Jerry.
>
> It's taken a little while to sort out, but here is reason for confusion...
>
> HSCA Final Report p212 quotes the same passage as coming from the first
> of two dispatches regarding quick visas. It does not specify a date.
>
> The 2nd dispatch was dated 10/09/59 and appears to reference the first
> mention of quick visas as being "that evening [September 4, 1959]".http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId...
>
> The cable of 10/09/59 makes reference to Sept 4 regarding a conversation
> with Golub on that date, but does not specify all subjects discussed.
> Based on the selectively misleading quote from the HSCA report, it was
> assumed this was the date of the luncheon, and among the topics was the
> visa issue.http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do
>
> It is only in reading the dispatch of 27/07 you linked to that it
> becomes clear that Golub gave out the information to Costille during a
> one-on-one lunch meeting on July 7 - *not* during any conversation had
> on Sep 4.
>
> Obviously this has an effect on the timeline, but I don't think it hurts
> the thesis being put forward.
>
> 1. The HSCA mentioned Golub was suspected of being KGB -- but concealed
> the fact that he was a target for CIA recruitment in a REDCAP op
> utilizing a female exchange student recruited as a REDSKIN agent.
>
> 2. The 07/07 date is only a week and half after Snyder settled into his
> new post as Consul in the US Moscow Embassy.
>
> 3. There is only evidence that 2 people obtained quick visas from Golub
> prior to Oswald and no evidence anyone got one after that. In fact,
> Golub was sent back to moscow at the start of 1960 (if memory hasn't
> failed). Those two just prior to Oswald provide all too convenient
> evidence that such quick visas were in fact made. Absent them, and hard
> evidence evaporates. You're left with Golub's advice and no one but
> Oswald ever taking advantage of the new system.
>
> 4. Come Oct 31 and Snyder just happens to have an exchange student in
> his office when LHO arrives. Said exchange student had also been
> recruited as a REDSKIN agent. Snyder would later lie to the WC and deny
> anyone else but he and Oswald were present.
>
> I'll make the necessary corrections. Thanks for keeping me on the ball!
>
> greg
Armstrong's book, Harvey and Lee, details all events of their lives by
chronology in 900+ pages with references.
On this issue it's presented as follows:
A memo describing the CIA's investigation was sent to J. Lee Rankin of the
Warren Commission on July 31, 1964. It reads, "The Soviet consul in
Helsinki stated that he could issue a transit visa (valid for 24 hours) in
five minutes, but that for a longer stay he would need about a week to
process a visa application and have Intourist arrange for lodgings."111
*This memo, however, was merely a ruse that was intended to placate the
Warren Commission and keep them from asking more detailed questions.*
* = italicization
What the CIA knew, and wasn't about to tell the WC, was that (underlined)
the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki was the only place in all of Europe where
the consul (Mr. Golub) had the authority to issue a visa "in a matter of
minutes." (end of underline) In all other European capitols the Soviet
Consul was required to send visa applications to Moscow.
A State Department dispatch from the US Embassy in Helsinki explained how
two Americans obtained Soviet visas in 1 or 2 days. The dispatch of
October 9, 1959, *sent the day BEFORE Harvey Oswald's arrival in
Helskinki* reads, "They (two Americans) had previously been in American
Consulate inquiring about the possibility of obtaining a Soviet visa in 1
or 2 days. (We) advised them to go directly to Golub.....which they did.
Golub phoned (us) to state that he would give them their visas as soon as
they made Intourist reservations. When they did this, Golub immediately
gave the their visas.."
If this dispatch were given to the Warren Commission, they would have
reason to believe that Oswald had been coached by the US Embassy in
Helskinki (CIA). The CIA knew that Helsinki was the only capital in
Europe where the Soviet consul was allowed to issue visas "*in a matter of
minutes*", and they also knew that it was Golub's practice *to contact the
applicant's Embassy, instead of the applicant directly*, after he had
approved the visas. If the Commission had this information they would
have known *that Oswald had been in contact with the US Embassy (CIA
personnel) in Helsinki.*
It is worth noting in the 4 days prior to entering Russia, Oswald's
spending habits changed dramatically. The normally frugal Oswald resided
in one of the most expensive hotels in Helsinki. and booked first-class
accommodations Intourist (a private guided tour of Moscow). The most
logical explanation for his free spending and the speed with which he
obtained a visa is that he received direction and money from the CIA.
After arriving in Helsinki on October 14th, Harvey Oswald boarded a train
on October 15th and crossed into the Soviet Union at Vainikkala. After 7
years of preparation, the CIA had successfully placed their
Russian-speaking agent in the Soviet Union. Oswald's next assignment was
to convince the Soviets he wanted to "defect."
NOTE: ** When Oswald arrived at the US Embassy in Moscow he told Richard
Snyder that he had applied for a Soviet tourist visa in Helsinki on
(underlined) October 14. (end of underline) 112 In 1962 Oswald told Max
Clark (George DeMohrenshild's attorney in Dallas) that he gad gotten into
the USSR by writing a Russian tour agency in either New York or
Washington.113 This may have been a cover story, planted by Clark who had
connections with US intelligence, to minimize speculation about Oswald's
ability to obtain a Soviet visa in one day.**
Pg 255 Harvey and Lee
CJ
greg
Gary,
This was in response to an inquiry from Rankin. The Consul was not Golub
(who had left Helsinki in Feb '60). The info pertained to 1964 and was
accurate at that time. Why didn't Armstrong mention that the 5 minute
transit visas for 24 hr stay could only be issued to businessmen?
> *This memo, however, was merely a ruse that was intended to placate the
> Warren Commission and keep them from asking more detailed questions.*
If it was supposed to stop further questions, why would it say all but
BUSINESSMEN in transit had to wait about a week?
The response received by Rankin actually begged further inquiry.
> * = italicization
>
> What the CIA knew, and wasn't about to tell the WC, was that (underlined)
> the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki was the only place in all of Europe where
> the consul (Mr. Golub) had the authority to issue a visa "in a matter of
> minutes." (end of underline) In all other European capitols the Soviet
> Consul was required to send visa applications to Moscow.
This just isn't factual. Helms sent a second memo to Rankin advising
that "Soviet Consulates in at least some Western European cities issued
Soviet tourist visas in 5 to 7 days..."
That only just falls short of admitting Helsinki was THE place to go.
> A State Department dispatch from the US Embassy in Helsinki explained how
> two Americans obtained Soviet visas in 1 or 2 days. The dispatch of
> October 9, 1959, *sent the day BEFORE Harvey Oswald's arrival in
> Helskinki* reads, "They (two Americans) had previously been in American
> Consulate inquiring about the possibility of obtaining a Soviet visa in 1
> or 2 days. (We) advised them to go directly to Golub.....which they did.
> Golub phoned (us) to state that he would give them their visas as soon as
> they made Intourist reservations. When they did this, Golub immediately
> gave the their visas.."
>
> If this dispatch were given to the Warren Commission, they would have
> reason to believe that Oswald had been coached by the US Embassy in
> Helskinki (CIA). The CIA knew that Helsinki was the only capital in
> Europe where the Soviet consul was allowed to issue visas "*in a matter of
> minutes*", and they also knew that it was Golub's practice *to contact the
> applicant's Embassy, instead of the applicant directly*, after he had
> approved the visas. If the Commission had this information they would
> have known *that Oswald had been in contact with the US Embassy (CIA
> personnel) in Helsinki.*
>
> It is worth noting in the 4 days prior to entering Russia, Oswald's
> spending habits changed dramatically. The normally frugal Oswald resided
> in one of the most expensive hotels in Helsinki. and booked first-class
> accommodations Intourist (a private guided tour of Moscow). The most
> logical explanation for his free spending and the speed with which he
> obtained a visa is that he received direction and money from the CIA.
The Intourist vouchers were a compulsory purchase for the quick tourist
visa. Does Armsrong explain why he purchased 10?
If "defecting" was the main goal, why didn't he just opt for a business
transit visa which could be obtained in five minutes and didn't require
the purchase of vouchers? After all... he did have travel docs stating
he was in the import/export business...
> After arriving in Helsinki on October 14th, Harvey Oswald boarded a train
> on October 15th and crossed into the Soviet Union at Vainikkala. After 7
> years of preparation, the CIA had successfully placed their
> Russian-speaking agent in the Soviet Union. Oswald's next assignment was
> to convince the Soviets he wanted to "defect."
Yet waited until his visa expired...
greg
http://reopenjfkcase.interodent.com
curtjester1
I suppose he could have, but what would that have bearing on the meaning
for the defectors? The norm was 5-7 days, and 5 was exceptional, and the
defectors was 1 or 2. Any which way one looks at, Helsinki was the 'in'
way. Oswald, like all the defectors would have had to have that way
greased for them.
> > *This memo, however, was merely a ruse that was intended to placate the
> > Warren Commission and keep them from asking more detailed questions.*
>
> If it was supposed to stop further questions, why would it say all but
> BUSINESSMEN in transit had to wait about a week?
>
They were wanting to know why Oswald got in a short time of a day. With
mere transit visas it could be done in 24 hours, and that could easily be
looked at as something not too profound of a time discrepancy. And in the
case of the WC, we would have to ask, did they ask any more questions
about time discrepancies?
> The response received by Rankin actually begged further inquiry.
>
> > * = italicization
>
> > What the CIA knew, and wasn't about to tell the WC, was that (underlined)
> > the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki was the only place in all of Europe where
> > the consul (Mr. Golub) had the authority to issue a visa "in a matter of
> > minutes." (end of underline) In all other European capitols the Soviet
> > Consul was required to send visa applications to Moscow.
>
> This just isn't factual. Helms sent a second memo to Rankin advising
> that "Soviet Consulates in at least some Western European cities issued
> Soviet tourist visas in 5 to 7 days..."
>
If that is so, then why did the two defectors before Oswald get advice to
go to Golub? Did the other fifteen defectors go to other Western European
cities? Why didn't Oswald go to another one, since he was in France and
got also got a passport good for 3 months in England? What Helms seems to
have said too, is that the time is of no big essence (and not to be looked
at seriously) because other cities in his opinion are in the ballpark.
Is Helms saying in your opinion that these other western european cities
didn't send the their approved applications directly to Moscow?
> That only just falls short of admitting Helsinki was THE place to go.
>
It does? It seems it did, and I have a feeling that all the defectors
were advised to go there.
Sounds like you are trying to 'derail' Mr. Armstrong, somehow. Isn't the
essence that the defector got Intourist backing for his lodgings?
> If "defecting" was the main goal, why didn't he just opt for a business
> transit visa which could be obtained in five minutes and didn't require
> the purchase of vouchers? After all... he did have travel docs stating
> he was in the import/export business...
>
The truth is that the State department dispatched from their spot in
Helsinki when Oswald was in transit to Helsinki BEFORE his arrival. As it
was a business visa was good for only 24 hours, and Oswald got a 6-day
visa by Golub stamped No. 4173339 into his passport.
> > After arriving in Helsinki on October 14th, Harvey Oswald boarded a train
> > on October 15th and crossed into the Soviet Union at Vainikkala. After 7
> > years of preparation, the CIA had successfully placed their
> > Russian-speaking agent in the Soviet Union. Oswald's next assignment was
> > to convince the Soviets he wanted to "defect."
>
> Yet waited until his visa expired...
>
On Oct. 21, 1959 was his so-called 'suicide attempt', 10 days before
denouncing.
From Armstrong pg 262 in the Chapter Defection: Harvey arrived in
Moscow by train on Friday morning, Oct. 16. He was met by Intourist
guide Rimma Shirakova, who worked for the Soviet travel bureau which
was an organ of State Security. Rimma drove Oswald to the Hotel
Berlin where he registered as a student, and *said he didn't know a
single word of Russian* ( a lie of course...mine).
Rimma took Oswald on a brief tour of Moscow and then dropped him off
at his hotel for lunch. That afternoon, while continuing the tour,
Oswald told Rimma that he was a former Marine and had come to Russia
to see the country. He thought the Soviet people lived good lives,
but when Oswald told her that he wanted to apply for Russian
citizenship she was shocked. Rimma immediately informed her
supervisor of Oswald's intentions and was told to help him write a
letter to the Supreme Soviet and request citizenship. Oswald then
wrote the letter and mailed it that afternoon.
According to Rimma she spent Oct 21 with Oswald and she was the perons
who told him that he would not be allowed to stay in the Soviet
Union. Rimma dropped Oswald off for lunch. At prior to 4:00 P.M,
Rimma and hotel staff found Oswald in the bathtub with his left wrist
bleeding and at $:00 was admitted to Botkinskaya Hospital. Oswald
remained 3 day in the hospital and transfered to the "somatic"
department with 11 other patients. (Doctors knew he could speak
Russian by his ability to answer questions). Oct 28, Oswald is
interviewed by Soviet passport officials who ask where he would like
to stay, and Oswald says that he wanted to stay in Russia, and they
said at that time they would meet and see about it, after Oswald left
his MC discharge papers. Oct. 31, Oswald goes to the American Embassy
to dissolve his American Citizenship.
During that time he stated about giving away radar secrets, which
would have put him in the position to be arrested, but 'of course'
wasn't.
CJ
James K. Olmstead
can't just assume they were.
jko
"curtjester1" <curtj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:e6d0cba9-ba38-4225...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
curtjester1
> The others who used Golub's easy visa may not have been "defectors". One
> can't just assume they were.
>
> jko
>
But they were on a defectors list that Otepka had which came from the
CIA, and Oswald was on that list, as SECRET. I believe the two prior
to Oswald had intelligence backgrounds. Why would Marchetti say there
were 35-40 being trained from ONI for foreign assignments?
CJ
> "curtjester1" <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
James K. Olmstead
On 18 Jan, 23:00, "James K. Olmstead" <jolmst...@neo.rr.com> wrote:
> The others who used Golub's easy visa may not have been "defectors". One
> can't just assume they were.
>
> jko
>
But they were on a defectors list that Otepka had which came from the CIA,
and Oswald was on that list, as SECRET. I believe the two prior to Oswald
had intelligence backgrounds. Why would Marchetti say there were 35-40
being trained from ONI for foreign assignments?
Name the "defectors" that entered the USSR from visa granted by Golub that
were on Otepka's "list". The CIA prepared defector's list is a published
document and I have it and the detailed evaluation prepared on each
individual. You maybe abit confused so let's go through the list name by
name.
Who are you claiming got visa from Golub prior to Oswald? As to
Marchetti, he is known for streching the truth in more then one area he
can't backup.
jko
greg
Gary, we're talking about Oswald. There is no evidence that defectors (the
"false" variety or otherwise) took this route. You (or Armstrong?) seem to
assume that the 6 who obtained quick visas through Golub prior to LHO were
all false defectors. There is zero evidence as to who they were, let alone
any evidence any of the 6 defected.
The norm was 5-7 days, and 5 was exceptional, and the
> defectors was 1 or 2. Any which way one looks at, Helsinki was the 'in'
> way. Oswald, like all the defectors would have had to have that way
> greased for them.
The "norm" from July '59 (when Golub first advised he could issue quick
visas) through Feb '60 (when Golub was sent back to Moscow) was 1 or 2
days *if* they met the following criteria:
They were US citizens
They were applying for tourist visas
They had purchased Intourist vouchers
They were deemed "all right" by Golub.
The 6 in question all had one thing in commmon - they had all been
referred to Golub by William Costille - a CIA officer under US consulate
cover.
One of Costille's jobs was recruiting agents for OPERATION REDSKIN. These
agents *ostensibly* were people who were already going to the Soviet Union
on business, as tourists, students - or for any other legal reason. I say
ostensibly because at least on doc shows some were asked if/when they
could go to SU (so obviously had no prior plans to do so). Other docs show
Costille recruited a female exchange student as a REDSKIN agent for the
express purpose of "turning" Golub.
In short, those who obtained one of Golub's quick visas were most likely
REDSKIN agents, if anything.
>>>*This memo, however, was merely a ruse that was intended to placate the
>>>Warren Commission and keep them from asking more detailed questions.*
>>
>>If it was supposed to stop further questions, why would it say all but
>>BUSINESSMEN in transit had to wait about a week?
>>
>
>
> They were wanting to know why Oswald got in a short time of a day. With
> mere transit visas it could be done in 24 hours, and that could easily be
> looked at as something not too profound of a time discrepancy. And in the
> case of the WC, we would have to ask, did they ask any more questions
> about time discrepancies?
I don't know if Helms' second memo was in response to further questions
or not.
>>The response received by Rankin actually begged further inquiry.
>>
>>
>>>* = italicization
>>
>>>What the CIA knew, and wasn't about to tell the WC, was that (underlined)
>>>the Soviet Embassy in Helsinki was the only place in all of Europe where
>>>the consul (Mr. Golub) had the authority to issue a visa "in a matter of
>>>minutes." (end of underline) In all other European capitols the Soviet
>>>Consul was required to send visa applications to Moscow.
>>
>>This just isn't factual. Helms sent a second memo to Rankin advising
>>that "Soviet Consulates in at least some Western European cities issued
>>Soviet tourist visas in 5 to 7 days..."
>>
>
>
> If that is so, then why did the two defectors before Oswald get advice to
> go to Golub?
See above.
Did the other fifteen defectors go to other Western European
> cities?
What other 15 defectors?
Why didn't Oswald go to another one, since he was in France and
> got also got a passport good for 3 months in England? What Helms seems to
> have said too, is that the time is of no big essence (and not to be looked
> at seriously) because other cities in his opinion are in the ballpark.
> Is Helms saying in your opinion that these other western european cities
> didn't send the their approved applications directly to Moscow?
No. And the difference between 5 to 7 days and 1 to 2 days may in your
opinion be in the same ballpark - and maybe that was also Helms' opinion
- but it's irrelavent as 5 to 7 days does not fit the Oswald timeline.
That's why I said...>>That only just falls short of admitting Helsinki
was THE place to go.
>>
>
>
> It does? It seems it did, and I have a feeling that all the defectors
> were advised to go there.
What other defectors?
"The defector"? Are talking about Oswald or someone else?
Oswald purchased 10 for $300.00. In your opinion this goes against the
usually frugal Oaswald ethos. Why would he do that when he only had a 6
day visa with a 2 day extension?
He could have maintained some semblance of his frugal cover by applying
for a 5 minute business transit visa (You surely only need one day to
announce your intention to defect). OR, he could have purchased only the
number of vouchers he needed to cover the length of his visa. He didn't do
either of those things. He not only spent up big on the vouchers - he
bought more than he needed.
As for "derailing" Armstrong... I don't have to. His "evidence" does that
(imo). You're free to believe it if you want. But I've examined some of
it...
>>If "defecting" was the main goal, why didn't he just opt for a business
>>transit visa which could be obtained in five minutes and didn't require
>>the purchase of vouchers? After all... he did have travel docs stating
>>he was in the import/export business...
>>
>
>
> The truth is that the State department dispatched from their spot in
> Helsinki when Oswald was in transit to Helsinki BEFORE his arrival. As it
> was a business visa was good for only 24 hours, and Oswald got a 6-day
> visa by Golub stamped No. 4173339 into his passport.
With a 2 day extension... but Oswald had 10 days worth of vouchers.
>>>After arriving in Helsinki on October 14th, Harvey Oswald boarded a train
>>>on October 15th and crossed into the Soviet Union at Vainikkala. After 7
>>>years of preparation, the CIA had successfully placed their
>>>Russian-speaking agent in the Soviet Union. Oswald's next assignment was
>>>to convince the Soviets he wanted to "defect."
>>
>>Yet waited until his visa expired...
>>
>
>
> On Oct. 21, 1959 was his so-called 'suicide attempt', 10 days before
> denouncing.
Yes. His visa was just about to expire.
> From Armstrong pg 262 in the Chapter Defection: Harvey arrived in
> Moscow by train on Friday morning, Oct. 16. He was met by Intourist
> guide Rimma Shirakova, who worked for the Soviet travel bureau which
> was an organ of State Security. Rimma drove Oswald to the Hotel
> Berlin where he registered as a student, and *said he didn't know a
> single word of Russian* ( a lie of course...mine).
>
> Rimma took Oswald on a brief tour of Moscow and then dropped him off
> at his hotel for lunch. That afternoon, while continuing the tour,
> Oswald told Rimma that he was a former Marine and had come to Russia
> to see the country. He thought the Soviet people lived good lives,
> but when Oswald told her that he wanted to apply for Russian
> citizenship she was shocked. Rimma immediately informed her
> supervisor of Oswald's intentions and was told to help him write a
> letter to the Supreme Soviet and request citizenship. Oswald then
> wrote the letter and mailed it that afternoon.
That is what he claimed in his historic diary. But that was written well
after the fact. The letter was not among anything the Soviets have handed
over, nor is it mentioned in any Soviet document they handed over. On that
basis, I conclude writing it in his Historic Diary was an attempt to
suggest he had gone there with the intention of "defecting" and had taken
immediate steps on arrival to do so. There is nothing I can find which
even vaguely supports that claim.
> According to Rimma she spent Oct 21 with Oswald and she was the perons
> who told him that he would not be allowed to stay in the Soviet
> Union. Rimma dropped Oswald off for lunch. At prior to 4:00 P.M,
> Rimma and hotel staff found Oswald in the bathtub with his left wrist
> bleeding and at $:00 was admitted to Botkinskaya Hospital. Oswald
> remained 3 day in the hospital and transfered to the "somatic"
> department with 11 other patients. (Doctors knew he could speak
> Russian by his ability to answer questions). Oct 28, Oswald is
> interviewed by Soviet passport officials who ask where he would like
> to stay, and Oswald says that he wanted to stay in Russia, and they
> said at that time they would meet and see about it, after Oswald left
> his MC discharge papers. Oct. 31, Oswald goes to the American Embassy
> to dissolve his American Citizenship.
>
> During that time he stated about giving away radar secrets, which
> would have put him in the position to be arrested, but 'of course'
> wasn't.
Yes. And the Justice Dept's reasons for not - as reported in the HSCA -
are plain silly on the face of it - basically saying they could not pursue
charges because Oswald had denied doing it after he returned to the US.
greg