JACK RUBY -- LONE KILLER OR "HIT MAN"?
David Von Pein
Many people seem to feel that it's the LNers who are the naive ones
when it comes to assessing the Jack Ruby situation. But I'd favor the
CTers being the naive group in the "Ruby" regard.
Conspiracy believers are forced to believe in a string of coincidences
that were really "contrivances" evidently, per CTers, in order for
Ruby to have rubbed out a certain Mr. Oswald as part of some pre-
arranged plot.
In addition to a pooch named "Sheba" and the amazing co-inky of having
the "Patsy" HIMSELF delaying his own rendezvous with death by
requesting a change of clothing at the 11th hour just before his
transfer....CTers, by default, are also forced to include Ruby's
nightclub stripper (Karen Carlin) as one of THE MAIN CONSPIRATORS.
And I ask -- Is it likely that nightclub employee Karen Carlin was
"in" on a conspiracy plot to kill Lee Oswald?
The conspiracists do, indeed, need Carlin "in" on any plot, due to the
mere fact that it was Carlin's phone call to Jack Ruby on the morning
of November 24th that set the wheels in motion for Ruby to be in the
general area of the police basement at just the proper time to kill
Oswald.
Without Carlin's request for that money order, Jack Ruby would have
had no reason whatsoever to be at that Western Union office in
downtown Dallas (which was just half-a-block away from the city jail
where Oswald was about to be moved).
Yes, Ruby told Carlin that he was going downtown anyway that
morning...but without Carlin's specific request for $25 from her
employer (Ruby), it's very doubtful that Jack would have gone to a
location downtown that would have placed him in very close proximity
of the city jail (where he saw people gathered).
Ruby, at the time he left his apartment at about 11 AM, was of the
opinion that Oswald had ALREADY BEEN TRANSFERRED to the county jail.
But when he got downtown, he saw the crowd near the jail and decided
to have a look-see.
4 minutes is all that separated Jack's Western Union order to Carlin
(stamped "11:17 AM") and the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald (at 11:21
AM).
Ruby being in a position to pull that trigger was via pure ordinary
happenstance. And if the "conspirators" were THAT good, that they
could make a pre-arranged "plot" equate in every way to
"happenstance"....heck, they almost deserve to get away with it.
Because such a beautifully-in-sync, choreographed performance
(including that little "delay" caused by the patsy himself!) is just
too good a performance to be spat upon indeed.
David Von Pein
April 24, 2007
YoHarvey
The idea that has existed for 44 years that Ruby "executed" Oswald on
orders is ludicrous. So distressed by JFK's killing, Ruby had called
his sister in Chicago to inform her he was going to visit. She talked
him out of it. To believe Ruby would have waited 48 hours while
Oswald "spilled" the beans defies logic. Ruby was a very emotional
guy. Throughout his life he acted on impulse. Ruby had about four
minutes from the time he left the Wester Union office to pull the
trigger. Does this sound like a well thought out plot?
robcap...@netscape.com
Dave, answer this one question truthfully, how did Ruby shoot LHO at
11:20 when the announced transfer time was 10:00 AM?
I mean there was no announcement that things were behind schedule, so
why would he show up at 11:20 when the transer was supposed to be at
10:00? More to the point, how was he ABLE to shoot LHO at 11:20 when
the transfer was supposed to be at 10:00 AM? Did really take LHO an
hour and 20 minutes to change clothes?
YoHarvey
wrote:
>
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Right place at the right time. Ruby had no way of knowing the
transfer was delayed. According to his roommate Senator, Ruby was
walking around his apartment in his underwear at 10:00 AM. Had he not
gotten the call from his stripper to wire money, there is no way of
knowing what Ruby had planned for the day. History often is made this
way.
curtjester1
From Survivor Guilt, Chapter 11
Agent Warner interviewed Ruby stripper Karen Carlin on November 24,
1963.His report reads in part: “She stated to me that she was under
the impressionthat Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, and other individuals
unknown to her wereinvolved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy
and that she would be killedif she gave any information to the
authorities.” Karen Carlin came out of hiding in October 1992, as she
had been living under an assumed name. She con-firmed the contents of
her Secret Service interview with Warner, and added that Ruby was
definitely in on a conspiracy to silence Oswald
I could have got this from a number of places. Even Ruby stated like
he always did when he used his Lawyer Prose on the quesionaire's, "you
must think she is in on the conspiracy too." He did this on numerous
occasions, which was saying of course it's true, catch
me..nananananana.
Carlin only admitted she was part of a gang that spoke at her
employment about a conspiracy. She could hardly be called a
conspirator, for she probably didn't think they were that serious.
As far as the money scheme between Carlin and Ruby. They were seen
the night before in conversation for a good while. Ruby had tons of
money on his person at the time of his arrest. Why would he even need
to have a moneygram sent. He couldn't have been more than a few
minutes from his apartment. And what stripper do you think DIDN'T
have Ruby's phone number?
Ruby was seen at DPD in the basement from 7:00 A.M - 10:00 A.M. that
morning by at least 10-15 people.
Oh, yes and Ruby did admit later to being a part of a conspiracy to
murder JFK.
David P. KNOWS this. That's why David P. is on a terrible, sinister,
agenda.
CJ
Todd W. Vaughan
That's the point exaclty. He didn't "show up" to shoot LHO. He saw the
activity at the DPD and walked down to see what was going on.
> More to the point, how was he ABLE to shoot LHO at 11:20 when
> the transfer was supposed to be at 10:00 AM?
Because the transfer did not take place at 10:00AM.
> Did really take LHO an
> hour and 20 minutes to change clothes?
Why do you only tell half the story?
The delay wasn't casued soley by LHO changing clothes, was it? No, it
was also caused by more questions being asked of LHO.
YoHarvey
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>
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YoHarvey
>
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Mark Lane and Ruby's Warren Commission
Testimony
The following is from the autobiographical "Introduction" to
Jean Davison's OSWALD'S GAME, pp. 17-19. It tells of her initial
experiences researching the assassination.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I found the blue-bound Hearings in a local university
library. Volumes I-XV contained the testimony of witnesses
who appeared at the Commission's hearings or gave
depositions before a Commission lawyer. The
question-and-answer format made the transcripts read like
the text of a play. The remaining volumes contained exhibits
entered as evidence -- FBI reports, photographs, and similar
documents. The first thing that struck me was how
disorganized this material was. An FBI report on ballistics
might be followed by a psychiatric report on Jack Ruby's
mother or a description of the preparations for the
motorcade. And there was no index. I began taking notes,
wondering if I could ever find an underlying order in this
jumble of information.
During the reading I checked some of Mark Lane's
footnotes. The testimony he had cited as evidence that the
Warren Report was a cover-up had often been quoted out of
context, so that what he quoted changed the meaning of what
had actually been said. For example, the way Lane wrote
about Jack Ruby's testimony led readers to believe that Ruby
was denied the opportunity to reveal the existence of a
conspiracy.
After Ruby had been convicted of Oswald's murder and
sentenced to death, Warren Commission members Earl Warren
and Gerald R. Ford questioned him at the Dallas jail. For
many months, there had been rumors that Ruby was a hit man
whose job had been to silence Oswald. To hear Lane tell it,
Ruby seemed eager to disclose his part in this conspiracy:
Ruby made it plain that if the Commission took
him from the Dallas County Jail and permitted him
to testify in Washington, he could tell more
there; it was impossible for him to tell the
whole truth so long as he was in the jail in
Dallas. . . . "I would like to request that I go
to Washington and . . . take all the tests that I
have to take. It is very important.... Gentlemen,
unless you get me to Washington, you can't get a
fair shake out of me."
After quoting similar statements by Ruby, Lane continued:
Representative Ford asked, not a little
redundantly, "Is there anything more you can tell
us if you went back to Washington?" Ruby told him
that there was, and just before the hearing ended
Ruby made one last plea to the Chief Justice of
the United States.
RUBY: But you are the only one that can save me.
I think you can.
WARREN: Yes?
RUBY: But by delaying minutes, you lose the
chance. And all I want to do is tell the truth,
and that is all.
But Warren didn't take him to Washington. Reading Lane's
account, one is horrified. His implication is clear: Ruby
was begging to be allowed to expose the conspiracy, and the
Chief Justice of the Supreme Court wouldn't listen.
Everything Lane quoted was in the record. What he
*didn't* say, however, was that the "tests" Ruby wanted to
take were simply a lie detector test--and the reason Ruby
wanted to take one was to prove that he was *not* part of a
conspiracy.
After his arrest, Ruby had been diagnosed as a
"psychotic depressive." His testimony to the Commission
indicates that he believed he was the victim of a political
conspiracy by right-wing forces in Dallas. He suggested
that the John Birch Society was spreading the falsehood that
he, a Jew, was implicated in the president's death in order
to create anti-Jewish hysteria. "The Jewish people are being
exterminated at this moment," Ruby insisted. "Consequently,
a whole new form of government is going to take over our
country." To foil this supposed plot, Ruby repeatedly asked
to be given a lie detector test. At various points in their
conversation Ruby told Warren:
No subversive organization gave me any idea. No
underworld person made any effort to contact me.
It all happened that Sunday morning.. . . If you
don't take me back to Washington tonight to give
me a chance to prove to the President that I am
not guilty, then you will see the most tragic
thing that will ever happen.... All I want is a
lie detector test.. . . All I want to do is tell
the truth, and that is all. There was no
conspiracy.
The following month Ruby was allowed to take a
polygraph test in his jail cell, and he showed no signs of
deception when he denied being part of a conspiracy. Because
of the doubts about his sanity, however, the test results
were considered inconclusive.
The only part of this background that appears in Lane's
book is Ruby's statement, "All I want to do is tell the
truth, and that is all." Had he presented the accompanying
material, Lane might have argued that Ruby was faking.
Instead, Lane cheated. He transformed a man who seemed
pathetically anxious to prove his innocence into an honest
conspirator desperate to reveal everything he knew. And this
was only one of many similar distortions in RUSH TO
JUDGMENT.
I remember feeling outraged when I realized what Lane
had done. Evidently, the Warren records were like a vast
lumberyard. By picking up a few pieces here and there, and
doing some cutting and fitting, any theory could be built
for which someone had a blueprint.
lazu...@webtv.net
in reference to Ruby's cover story in the shooting of Oswald.
lazu...@webtv.net
suspect here is Gordon McClendon co-owner of the Dallas Cowboys, &( was
a pioneer in top 40 radio) with Clint Murchison, and listed by Jack Ruby
as one of his six closest friends. Ruby tried to contact McCendon, to no
avail the night of the Assassination. McClendon was also involved with
chief suspect David Atlee Phillips in the retired former Intelligence
Officers Association and willfully spread CIA Propoganda...
lazu...@webtv.net
believe everything a low life hoodlum who didn't even vote for JFK, told
Earl Warren, a guy who beat the hell out of customers with brass
knuckles, pimped women for the police ..and yet, they won't believe the
Phil Willis's, Bill Newman's etc..
David Von Pein
>>> "Dave, answer this one question truthfully, how did Ruby shoot LHO at 11:20 when the announced transfer time was 10:00 AM? I mean there was no announcement that things were behind schedule, so why would he show up at 11:20 when the transer was supposed to be at 10:00?" <<<
Well, Rob, that's kinda THE WHOLE POINT in a nutshell -- i.e., Ruby
DID think that the transfer had probably already taken place when he
left his apartment at around 11:00 AM on Sunday; hence, Ruby didn't
set out on Sunday to specifically murder Lee Oswald. Otherwise, Ruby
WOULD have, indeed, been in place downtown by 10:00.
Hence the reason I said this in my initial post in this thread:
"Ruby being in a position to pull that trigger was via pure
ordinary happenstance. And if the "conspirators" were THAT good, that
they could make a pre-arranged "plot" equate in every way to
"happenstance"....heck, they almost deserve to get away with it.
Because such a beautifully-in-sync, choreographed performance
(including that little "delay" caused by the patsy himself!) is just
too good a performance to be spat upon indeed." -- DVP
>>> "More to the point, how was he ABLE to shoot LHO at 11:20 when the transfer was supposed to be at 10:00 AM? Did really take LHO an hour and 20 minutes to change clothes?" <<<
Once again, the major point eludes the Rob-ster.
Plus, it wasn't only the "change of clothes" that delayed the transfer
(slightly), but more importantly in the "delay" department, there are
the actions of U.S. Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, who just happened
to go downtown on Sunday morning (after dropping his wife off at
church) to see if he could help out Captain Fritz before Oswald was
moved to the county jail.
Holmes' interrogation of Oswald is the thing that delayed the transfer
the most. So, if there was a concerted, pre-arranged "plot" to stall
around in some manner so that Ruby could do the job, you're going to
have to paint Harry Holmes as a very, very key "conspirator" in this
"delay" plot.
Do you really want to travel down the CT road marked: "Harry D. Holmes
of the U.S. Postal Department was a major player in the plot to
silence Lee Harvey Oswald"?
If you do wish to travel down that road, how about producing some
evidence and/or some PROOF to show that Harry D. Holmes was something
other than merely a post-office inspector who dropped by the city jail
on the morning of November 24th to see if he could help out the DPD
before they moved LHO.
aeffects
naive comes to mind... simple-minded AND naive... pathetic
tomnln
<lazu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21076-484...@storefull-3231.bay.webtv.net...
It's called "BIRDS OF A FEATHER".
robcap...@netscape.com
> >>> "Dave, answer this one question truthfully, how did Ruby shoot LHO at 11:20 when the announced transfer time was 10:00 AM? I mean there was no announcement that things were behind schedule, so why would he show up at 11:20 when the transer was supposed to be at 10:00?" <<<
"Well, Rob, that's kinda THE WHOLE POINT in a nutshell -- i.e., Ruby
DID think that the transfer had probably already taken place when he
left his apartment at around 11:00 AM on Sunday; hence, Ruby didn't
set out on Sunday to specifically murder Lee Oswald. Otherwise, Ruby
WOULD have, indeed, been in place downtown by 10:00."
Dave, I agree with you in principle. I DON'T think Ruby wanted to
shoot LHO, but he was ordered to do it. I think he dragged his heels
and stalled and showed up an hour and 20 minutes late, and if I could
only see his face when he realized they WAITED for him anyway, that
would be worth a million bucks. Ruby was an FBI informant in the late
50s and he had definite, provable, ties to the mob, so the big
question is, who held up the transfer until Ruby and his lawyer showed
up (remember his lawyer was right next to him)?
"Hence the reason I said this in my initial post in this thread:
"Ruby being in a position to pull that trigger was via pure
ordinary happenstance. And if the "conspirators" were THAT good, that
they could make a pre-arranged "plot" equate in every way to
"happenstance"....heck, they almost deserve to get away with it.
Because such a beautifully-in-sync, choreographed performance
(including that little "delay" caused by the patsy himself!) is just
too good a performance to be spat upon indeed." -- DVP"
Pure happenstance of someone's making, but who or whom's? Ruby was
trying to squeal out of this duty but stalling and making calls to
alert the police of the shooting, but even with all his efforts, LHO
was delivered on a silver platter. Only someone or some group with
power could have made this work so well despite Ruby's obvious desire
not to do it.
> >>> "More to the point, how was he ABLE to shoot LHO at 11:20 when the transfer was supposed to be at 10:00 AM? Did really take LHO an hour and 20 minutes to change clothes?" <<<
"Once again, the major point eludes the Rob-ster."
It doesn't allude me, it highlights for me the power behind the
shooting.
"Plus, it wasn't only the "change of clothes" that delayed the
transfer (slightly), but more importantly in the "delay" department,
there are the actions of U.S. Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, who just
happened to go downtown on Sunday morning (after dropping his wife off
at church) to see if he could help out Captain Fritz before Oswald was
moved to the county jail."
Who is this Harry Holmes? I mean he provides the ad (an incorrect one)
for the alledged rifle order by LHO, he is there for the
interrogations of LHO, he throws away the page 3 of the postal
contract that would have showed LHO listed NO aliases or additional
people to pickup or receive mail at his Dallas P.O. Box, he claimed to
witness the assassination and incorrectly said the shots were 20
seconds apart (the only person to do so), and now he shows up to help
Fritz with the transfer? How could a postal inspector help the police
with a custody transfer? Please explain this. Furthermore, who was
Fritz on the phone with when LHO was shot? Someone delibrately called
him at the exact moment of transfer and kept him on the phone, who was
this?
"Holmes' interrogation of Oswald is the thing that delayed the
transfer the most. So, if there was a concerted, pre-arranged "plot"
to stall around in some manner so that Ruby could do the job, you're
going to have to paint Harry Holmes as a very, very key "conspirator"
in this "delay" plot."
We now know Holmes was an FBI informant, but still this should NOT
give him the authority to interrogate LHO. I think Harry Holmes
actions on the 3 days of the assassination weekend have "painted" him
as a key contributor to the conspiracy. He was everywhere with no
legal authority, so one has to wonder on whose orders he was being
allowed this kind of leeway.
"Do you really want to travel down the CT road marked: "Harry D.
Holmes of the U.S. Postal Department was a major player in the plot to
silence Lee Harvey Oswald"?"
Once again his actions have proven he was a contributor to the
assassination as he was involved in things that had NOTHING to do with
Post Office. There have been many articles about this man already,
obviously you have ignored them.
"If you do wish to travel down that road, how about producing some
evidence and/or some PROOF to show that Harry D. Holmes was something
other than merely a post-office inspector who dropped by the city jail
on the morning of November 24th to see if he could help out the DPD
before they moved LHO."
Much evidence has been given (and it is listed above), but before we
get into that, please tell me why a Postal inspector was interrogating
a man accused of shooting the President and a police officer. What
authority would he have to do this? He didnt' just "drop by" as you
said he was interrogating LHO, why? Was he sent to delay the transfer
since chicken little (Ruby) had not shown up?
curtjester1
Laz,
McClendon as well as LBJ were at that Murchison Party....and Ruby came
in late with a girl, the night before the assassination. I wouldn't
doubt it to be Karen Carlin, because she was a prostitute. Also, H.L.
Hunt used Ruby as a conduit for girls. And Ruby blamed who, when
things weren't going his way while in jail? LBJ!
Now here's the SS Agent with and describing Carlin on the 24th, the
day Ruby shot Oswald. "Mrs. Carlin was highly agitated and was
reluctant to make any statement to me. She stated to me that she was
under the impression that Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby and other
individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to assassinate
President Kennedy and that she would be killed if she gave any
information to the authorities."...."She twisted in her chair,
stammered in her speech, and seemed on the point of hysteria. She
would give information only "through the aid of her husband" and then
asked, "that all information she had related be kept confidential to
prevent retaliation against her in case there was a plot afoot."
Carlin was also arrested for carrying a gun to Ruby's bond hearing and
after being questioned by the WC related a further incident:
Q. Do you recall during the course of the Ruby trial when you were
waiting to testify that there was a jail break there and some people
got out of jai, and I think they passed right near you, I believe?
Mrs. Carlin: Yes
Q. Do you remember what you screamed or said?
Mrs. Carlin: "Oh, my God, they're after me."
Q. Yes---what made you believe that "they" were after you?
Mrs. Carlin: Because I was scared I was going to get killed before I
ever got to court." ----pg. 137-38 Contract On America - Scheim
Anyway, I guess she went into hiding and resurfaced in the 1990's, and
still kept her stance on the events she related here.
CJ