Exposing Postal Inspector/FBI Informant Harry D. Holmes, Exposting The WC
curtjester1
Exposing Postal Inspector/FBI Informant Harry D. Holmes
In 1963, 57-year old Dallas Postal Inspector Harry D. Holmes was an
active informant for the FBI (Dallas "T-2"). He was also the only non-
law enforcement officer allowed to sit in during one of Oswald's
interrogations. But from Holmes' testimony we realize that he played
a much larger role between the scenes.
Postal inspectors took an interest in Oswald soon after he returned
from the Soviet Union. Theyknew he was receiving subversive materials
in Fort Worth and intereviewed his neighbors on Mercedes Street.
Postal employees in Dallas also notified the FBI that Oswald was
receiving "The Worker" at his box, probably with Holmes' knowledge.
If a lookout was placed on Oswald's post office box 2915, as it should
have been, then a firearm or other large package addressed to "A.
Hidell" or Oswald would almost certainly have been brought to the
attention of postal inspectors.
FBI INFORMANT. On November 22, 1963 Holmes played a
very active role as events began to unfold in Dallas and told the
Commission:
"Well, throughout the entire period I was feeding change of
addressses as bits of information to the FBI and Secret Service, and
sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then
about Sunday morning about (9:20....."
Commission attorney Belin interruped Holmes and said, "Pardon me a
second." Belin then had a discussion with Holmes "off the record" and
probably warned him not to say anything else about feeding bits of
information to the FBI and Secret Service.
PO BOX 2915. Harry Holmes never explained when he first
learned that Oswald rented a box at the General Post Office, but as a
postal inspector it was his job to know about people who received
"subversive" materials, such as Oswald. Holmes claimed that he
received a telephone call from a postal clerk at the Dallas Terminal
Annex who remembered renting Oswald PO Box 6225 on November 2, 1963,
but neither Holmes nor anyone identified the the postal clerk. Lloyd
H. Stephens, Postal Inspector in Charge at Fort Worth, tried to locate
the clerk so that he could send him a letter of commendation, but the
clerk was never located, and probably existed only in Harry Holmes'
mind.
THREE STORIES BY HOLMES. Holmes told the Warren Commission
that on the morning of November 23, "The FBI furnished me information
that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had
been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from
Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963"
According to Holmes, it was this inaccurate information which caused a
delay of several hours in locating the correct money order in the
amount of $21.45.
STORY#1. Holmes told the Commission that he found the correct
price of the rifle by locating an advertisement in a magazine. He
said, "I had my secretary go out and purchae about half a dozen books
on outdoor-type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought
that I might locate the gun to identify it, and I did." The
Commission never sought to verify the accuracy of this statement with
Holmes' secretary.
NOTE: Anyone who has ever looked at the rifle pictured in
Klein's small black and white advertisement knows that Holmes'
statement is ridiculous. The picture is nothing more than a black
silhouette and could not possibly be used to identify the rifle.
STORY#2. Holmes told a different story to the FBI and said
that he found a magazine in the "Nixie" section at the post office and
after looking through the magazine found a Klein's ad that showed the
price of an identical rifle for $21.45.
STORY#3. In a letter dated April 10, 1965 to J.V. Staples,
Assistant Inspector in Charge at Fort Worth, Harry Holmes wrote, "In
the afternoon of November 23, through information furnished by
Inspector McGee of Chicago at our request, it was possible for me to
isolate and identify the number of the money order...." Holmes told
one story to Assistant Inspector Staples and a different story to the
Warren Commission.
$12.78 RIFLE. Another reason to doubt Holmes' story is that on
Saturday morning the FBI announced that the rifle used to assassinate
President Kennedy was purchased for $12.78. Why would the Bureau tell
Holmes to look for a postal money order in the amount of $21.95 after
announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle?
THE INVISIBLE MONEY ORDER STUB. Holmes told the Commission, "I
passed the information to the men who were looking for this money
order 'stub' to show the only way you could find ne.....within 10
minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that
amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this
post office box was at the time box 2915, and the money order had been
issued early on the morning of March 12th, 1963. But Harry Holmes
never produced a money order "stub," it was never seen by anybody in
Dallas, and not a single post office employee corrroborated Holmes'
story.
EARLY ON THE MORNING OF MARCH 12, 1963. On April 2, 1964
Harry Holmes told the Warren Commission that he knew the money order
had been issued early on the morning of March 1, 1963. But how did
he know?......There is no time stamp on postal money orders and the
only indication that it was purchased on the morning of March 12 was
the postmark on the envelope allegedly mailed to Klein's, that read
"10:30 am." A copy of this envelope was allegedly found on Klein's
microfilm, but the microfilm was confiscated by FBI agents on November
23 and was not seen again until the Commission deposed William Waldman
on May 20, 1964-seven weeks after Holmes testified. Harry Holmes
could not possibly have known that postal money order No,
2,202,130,462 was issued early on the morning of March 12, 1963,
unless he had previously seen the mailing envelope from Klein's
microfilm or issued the money order himself on the morning of March
12.
MONEY ORDER IN WASHINGTON, DC. Holmes told the Warren
Commission, "This number (2,202,130,462) was transmitted to the Chief
Inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at
Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out
this money order, and about 7 o'clock (actually 8:00 PM) Saturday
night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over, so
they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of the
Secret Service at Washington now, and turned out, so they said, to be
the correct money order.
Holmes is the only person, anywhere in the US Post Office system, who
knew the number of the postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 on the
afternoon of November 23. No other Dallas Postal employee was
interviewed by the FBI or Warren Commission and there is no
confirmation whatsoever that a "stub" for this money order was found
at the GPO in Dallas, despite Holmes' claim.
The money order was allegedly found by National Archives employee
Robert Jackson, but there were no witnesses present and this man was
never questioned by the FBI or Warren Commission. Jackson delivered
the money order to the home of postal finance officer J. Harold Marks
and it was soon picked up by Secret Service agent Parker.
Holmes lied to the Commission. Holmes version of events
surrounding the money order were essential in linking Oswald with the
mail order rifle from Klein's and went unchallenged. But when David
Belin questioned Holmes about statements made by Oswald during his
last interrogation, attended by Captain Fritz, Forrest Sorrels, Thomas
Kelly, and Holmes, Belin immediately noticed some glaring
contradictions.
Belin asked Holmes, "Did he (Oswald) ever say anything about going to
Mexico?" Holmes, replied, "Yes. To the extent that mostly about-well-
he didn't spend, 'Where did you get the money?' He didn't say that
where he stayed it cost $26 some off, ridiculous amount to eat, and
another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to
the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by
Cuba, but most of the talks that we want to talk about was how he got
by with a little amount....They refused him and he became angry and he
said he burst out of there, and I don't know I don't recall now why
he went into the business about how mad it made him...he goes over to
the Russian Embassy. he was already at the American. This was the
Mexican-he wanted to go to Cuba. Then he went to the Russian Embassy
and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of
Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused
and said, 'Come back in 30 days,' or something like that. And, he
went out of there angry and disgusted"
Harry Holmes was the only person who sat in on the interrogations of
November 24 who claimed that Oswald said he had been in Mexico City.
Belin recognized the contradiction and said, "Is this something that
you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, ir is
this something you remember?" Holmes replied, "That is what said in
there." Belin must have realized that Holmes was clearly trying to
link Oswald to Cuba, and also must have realized that Holmes was
lying.
NOTE: On December 17, 1963, four months before he was
interviewed by the Warren Commission, Holmes wrote a detailed
"Memorandum of Interview" of Oswald's interrogations on November 24,
1963. This memorandum was published in the Warren Volumes as Holmes
Ex. No. 4, but Holmes wrote nothing about Oswald's alleged trip to
Mexico City.
David Belin then discussed the postal money order with Holmes who
said, "Oswald had bee questioned about it (the money order) from about
10 A.M. to noon on November 24, before he was killed." Once again
Holmes lied to the Warren Commission, because neither Captain Fritz,
Forrest Sorrels, or Thomas Kelly remembered that Oswald was asked or
said anything about a postal money order.
Holmes' lies and contradictory statements are not enough to prove that
he colluded with the FBI and fabricated the money order that linked
Oswald with the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle. But Holmes was the first
person in Dallas to know the number of the money order, the only
person who claimed to have located the money order "stub," and he had
access to postal money orders and GPO cancellation stamps. If Holmes
was not involved, then why did he wait 4 hours before telling postal
inspectors that this never-deposited, never-cashed money order could
be found at the Federal Records Center in Washington, DC?
Exposing the Warren Commission
The Warren Commission was certainly aware that Oswald's alleged
purchase of a rifle from Klein's was based on highly questionable and
inconclusive evidence. They relied not only on dubious evidence (mis-
dated bank deposits/an uncashed money order/bills of lading that
failed to identify the rifles), they knowingly suppressed evidence
(Oswald's application for PO Box 2915), ignored evidence (postal form
2162), failed to interview crucial witnesses (Louis Feldsott, Fred
Rupp, J.A. Mueller, William Sharp, Robert Jackson), failed to properly
question Klein's employees (about 36-inch Italian carbines, the
mounting of scopes, regulations concerning the shipment of firearms
through the USPO), failed to properly evaluate evidence (postal money
order, envelope mailed to Klein's, Klein's bank statements), and
allowed the introduction of irrelevant and misleading evidence
(November, 1963 ad from Field and Stream). The Commission broke so
many rules of civil procedure in trying to "prove" that Oswald
purchased C2766 from Klein's, that we have learned not to trust them,
their methods, or their conclusions.
Harvey and Lee pgs 477-81
(I have found that writing things from one's hotmail account can allow
one to use bold print, italics, and underlining, as well as other word
processing functions).
(Unfortunately it doesn't appear that it will transfer from a C,C, and
P)
CJ
Walt
CJ This flys in the face of what I've accepted as the truth about WHEN
and HOW the FBI discovered that the rifle had been ordered from Klein
Sporting goods. I've always thought that the FBI discovered that the
rifle had been order from Kleins after an FBI agent in New Orleans
revealed that Oswald had bought the rifle fro a Chicago mail order
house. Then armed with that information they when to Kleins and
tracked down the order.
The whole thing never made a lot of sense to me, but I accepted that
they had in fact uncovered the order blank in the wee early hours of
11-23-63. Is that true or is it not true?/
curtjester1
> On 23 Jan, 12:45, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Exposing Postal Inspector/FBI InformantHarryD.Holmes
>
> > active informant for the FBI (Dallas "T-2"). He was also the only non-
> > law enforcement officer allowed to sit in during one of Oswald's
> > a much larger role between the scenes.
>
> > Postal inspectors took an interest in Oswald soon after he returned
> > from the Soviet Union. Theyknew he was receiving subversive materials
> > in Fort Worth and intereviewed his neighbors on Mercedes Street.
> > Postal employees in Dallas also notified the FBI that Oswald was
> > If a lookout was placed on Oswald's post office box 2915, as it should
> > have been, then a firearm or other large package addressed to "A.
> > Hidell" or Oswald would almost certainly have been brought to the
> > attention of postal inspectors.
>
> > very active role as events began to unfold in Dallas and told the
> > Commission:
>
> > "Well, throughout the entire period I was feeding change of
> > addressses as bits of information to the FBI and Secret Service, and
> > sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then
> > about Sunday morning about (9:20....."
>
> > second." Belin then had a discussion withHolmes"off the record" and
> > probably warned him not to say anything else about feeding bits of
> > information to the FBI and Secret Service.
>
> > learned that Oswald rented a box at the General Post Office, but as a
> > postal inspector it was his job to know about people who received
> > received a telephone call from a postal clerk at the Dallas Terminal
> > Annex who remembered renting Oswald PO Box 6225 on November 2, 1963,
> > H. Stephens, Postal Inspector in Charge at Fort Worth, tried to locate
> > the clerk so that he could send him a letter of commendation, but the
> > clerk was never located, and probably existed only inHarryHolmes'
> > mind.
>
> > that on the morning of November 23, "The FBI furnished me information
> > that a money order of some description in the amount of $21.95 had
> > been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from
> > Klein's in Chicago, and that the purchase date was March 20, 1963"
> > delay of several hours in locating the correct money order in the
> > amount of $21.45.
>
> > price of the rifle by locating an advertisement in a magazine. He
> > said, "I had my secretary go out and purchae about half a dozen books
> > on outdoor-type magazines such as Field and Stream, with the thought
> > that I might locate the gun to identify it, and I did." The
> > Commission never sought to verify the accuracy of this statement with
> >Holmes' secretary.
>
> > NOTE: Anyone who has ever looked at the rifle pictured in
> > Klein's small black and white advertisement knows thatHolmes'
> > statement is ridiculous. The picture is nothing more than a black
> > silhouette and could not possibly be used to identify the rifle.
>
> > that he found a magazine in the "Nixie" section at the post office and
> > after looking through the magazine found a Klein's ad that showed the
> > price of an identical rifle for $21.45.
> > STORY#3. In a letter dated April 10, 1965 to J.V. Staples,
> > the afternoon of November 23, through information furnished by
> > Inspector McGee of Chicago at our request, it was possible for me to
> > isolate and identify the number of the money order...." Holmestold
> > one story to Assistant Inspector Staples and a different story to the
> > Warren Commission.
> > Saturday morning the FBI announced that the rifle used to assassinate
> > President Kennedy was purchased for $12.78. Why would the Bureau tell
> > announcing that Oswald paid $12.78 for the rifle?
> > passed the information to the men who were looking for this money
> > order 'stub' to show the only way you could find ne.....within 10
> > minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that
> > amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this
> > post office box was at the time box 2915, and the money order had been
> > issued early on the morning of March 12th, 1963. ButHarryHolmes
> > never produced a money order "stub," it was never seen by anybody in
> > Dallas, and not a single post office employee corrroboratedHolmes'
> > story.
> > EARLY ON THE MORNING OF MARCH 12, 1963. On April 2, 1964
> > had been issued early on the morning of March 1, 1963. But how did
> > he know?......There is no time stamp on postal money orders and the
> > only indication that it was purchased on the morning of March 12 was
> > the postmark on the envelope allegedly mailed to Klein's, that read
> > "10:30 am." A copy of this envelope was allegedly found on Klein's
> > microfilm, but the microfilm was confiscated by FBI agents on November
> > 23 and was not seen again until the Commission deposed William Waldman
> > on May 20, 1964-seven weeks afterHolmestestified. HarryHolmes
> > could not possibly have known that postal money order No,
> > 2,202,130,462 was issued early on the morning of March 12, 1963,
> > unless he had previously seen the mailing envelope from Klein's
> > microfilm or issued the money order himself on the morning of March
> > 12.
> > Commission, "This number (2,202,130,462) was transmitted to the Chief
> > Inspector in Washington, who immediately got the money order center at
> > Washington to begin a search, which they use IBM equipment to kick out
> > this money order, and about 7 o'clock (actually 8:00 PM) Saturday
> > night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over, so
> > they said, by special conveyance to the Secret Service, chief of the
> > Secret Service at Washington now, and turned out, so they said, to be
> > the correct money order.
>
> > knew the number of the postal money order No. 2,202,130,462 on the
> > afternoon of November 23. No other Dallas Postal employee was
> > interviewed by the FBI or Warren Commission and there is no
> > confirmation whatsoever that a "stub" for this money order was found
>
> > The money order was allegedly found by National Archives employee
> > Robert Jackson, but there were no witnesses present and this man was
> > never questioned by the FBI or Warren Commission. Jackson delivered
> > the money order to the home of postal finance officer J. Harold Marks
> > and it was soon picked up by Secret Service agent Parker.
> > surrounding the money order were essential in linking Oswald with the
> > mail order rifle from Klein's and went unchallenged. But when David
> > last interrogation, attended by Captain Fritz, Forrest Sorrels, Thomas
> > contradictions.
>
> > Belin askedHolmes, "Did he (Oswald) ever say anything about going to
> > Mexico?" Holmes, replied, "Yes. To the extent that mostly about-well-
> > he didn't spend, 'Where did you get the money?' He didn't say that
> > where he stayed it cost $26 some off, ridiculous amount to eat, and
> > another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to
> > the Mexican Embassy to try to get this permission to go to Russia by
> > Cuba, but most of the talks that we want to talk about was how he got
> > by with a little amount....They refused him and he became angry and he
> > said he burst out of there, and I don't know I don't recall now why
> > he went into the business about how mad it made him...he goes over to
> > the Russian Embassy. he was already at the American. This was the
> > Mexican-he wanted to go to Cuba. Then he went to the Russian Embassy
> > and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to Russia by way of
> > Cuba, still trying to get to Cuba and try that angle and they refused
> > and said, 'Come back in 30 days,' or something like that. And, he
> > went out of there angry and disgusted"
>
> > November 24 who claimed that Oswald said he had been in Mexico City.
> > Belin recognized the contradiction and said, "Is this something that
> > you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, ir is
> > there." Belin must have realized thatHolmeswas clearly trying to
> > link Oswald to Cuba, and also must have realized thatHolmeswas
> > lying.
>
> > NOTE: On December 17, 1963, four months before he was
> > "Memorandum of Interview" of Oswald's interrogations on November 24,
> > 1963. This memorandum was published in the Warren Volumes asHolmes
> > Mexico City.
>
> > David Belin then discussed the postal money order withHolmeswho
> > said, "Oswald had bee questioned about it (the money order) from about
> > 10 A.M. to noon on November 24, before he was killed." Once again
> > Forrest Sorrels, or Thomas Kelly remembered that Oswald was asked or
> > said anything about a postal money order.
>
> >Holmes' lies and contradictory statements are not enough to prove that
> > he colluded with the FBI and fabricated the money order that linked
Walt, I believe the FBI said that there 'was' an order from via the
microfilm that they took and never returned to Klein's. Of course
they had forever to do anything like make a form up, make copies and
such.That was allegedly the A. HIdell form...which is very dubious.
They said the form 'was' from an American Rifleman issue that was from
Feb. 1963, but they didn't know that there were no 40-inch rifles sold
at the time, only 36-inch. Caught. The FBI was trying to track the
money order....and never could substantiate anything through Klein's
with any banking endorements, all on Nov. 23.
9:00 am, November 23, 1963 - Crescent City Garage - New Orleans
A few hours after FBI agents left Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago a
young man walked into Adrian Alba's garage (where they previously saw
LEE getting an envelope by FBI people) in New Orleans (next door to
Reily Coffee where Oswald worked in the summer of 1963) around 9:00
am. The young man told Alba's employee, Jesse Patrick McNeil, that he
was one of Adrian's best friends and wanted to borrow some sports
magazines. After receiving permission the unidentified man helped
himself to the magazines and left within two or three minutes.
On the afternoon of November 23 FBI agents visited Alba's garage and
picked up 7 magazines: American Rifleman. June thru November, 1963;
Guns and Hunting, Jan. 1964; Field and Stream, Dec. 1958. These
magazines were immediately sent to the FBI laboratory in Washington
DC. On page 59 of the June 1963 edition of the American Rifleman a
Klein's order coupon had been torn out. The FBI laboratory was
requested to determine if the order blank mailed to Klein's on March
12 by "A. Hidell" was torn from this magazine. The FBI laboratory
determined the order coupon mailed by Hidell did not come from any of
the 7 magazines.
On the afternoon of November 23 the Dallas Police searched Ruth
Paine's garage and found that two Klein's order coupons had been torn
from magazines that were nearly identical to the order coupon which
"A. Hidell" ALLEDGELY sent to Klein's on March 12, 1963. The only
difference between the coupons ws the "Department Number," which
identified the month and year of the publication in which the ad
appeared. The police turned the coupons over to the FBI agent James
Bookout on Dec. 2, 1963.
One of the coupons contained the notation "Dept. 425," which meant it
was printed in the June 1963 edition of the American Rifleman. In
1970 researcher Paul Hoch discovered that this coupon MATCHED
PERFECTLY with the June 1963 edition of American Rifleman-one of the 7
magazines given to the FBI by Adrian Alba on November 23, 1963. The
magazine in which the second coupon was published, with the notation
"Dept. 222," remains unknown. Harvey and Lee pgs. 456-7.
NOTE: The FBI did not find Oswald's fingerprints on either order
coupon.
I hope this makes it perfectly clear as mud, Walt...-:)
CJ
Walt
So the answer is .....YES, they did know early on 11 -23-63 that A
Hidell had ordered a MC from Klein's
Of course they had forever to do anything like make a form up, make
copies and such.That was allegedly the A. HIdell form...which is very
dubious. They said the form 'was' from an American Rifleman issue that
was from
Feb. 1963, but they didn't know that there were no 40-inch rifles
sold at the time, only 36-inch. Caught. The FBI was trying to track
the money order....and never could substantiate anything through
Klein's with any banking endorements, all on Nov. 23.
If I understand you....Then you're saying that The FBI had six months
to create false documents like the envelope, the money order; etc....
If they had all that time and they were planning on setting LHO up all
that time don't you think they could have created an undetectable
false trail??
The order blank is definitely from the the February 1963 issue of
American Rifleman. That FACT is verified by the Department number on
the order blank. Dept 358 identifies it as being published in the Feb.
63 issue of American Rifleman.
And Kleins definitely had 40 inch Carcanos in their possession in
February of 1963. The shipping invoice from lipshutz verifies this
FACT. So no matter that the ad specified a 36 inch Carbine, they
could have sent a 40 inch rifle to Dallas Texas.
>
> 9:00 am, November 23, 1963 - Crescent City Garage - New Orleans
>
> A few hours after FBI agents left Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago a
> young man walked into Adrian Alba's garage (where they previously saw
> LEE getting an envelope by FBI people) in New Orleans (next door to
> Reily Coffee where Oswald worked in the summer of 1963) around 9:00
> am. The young man told Alba's employee, Jesse Patrick McNeil, that he
> was one of Adrian's best friends and wanted to borrow some sports
> magazines. After receiving permission the unidentified man helped
> himself to the magazines and left within two or three minutes.
>
> On the afternoon of November 23 FBI agents visited Alba's garage and
> picked up 7 magazines: American Rifleman. June thru November, 1963;
> Guns and Hunting, Jan. 1964; Field and Stream, Dec. 1958. These
> magazines were immediately sent to the FBI laboratory in Washington
> DC. On page 59 of the June 1963 edition of the American Rifleman a
> Klein's order coupon had been torn out. The FBI laboratory was
> requested to determine if the order blank mailed to Klein's on March
> 12 by "A. Hidell" was torn from this magazine.
This doesn't even make sense..... How could an orderblank from a
magazine published in June have been used to order a rifle in
February???
However..... I would like to know more about the FBI grabbing
magazines at Alba's... Do you know anymore??
The FBI laboratory
> determined the order coupon mailed by Hidell did not come from any of
> the 7 magazines.
It doesn't take the FBI to figure out where the order blank came from.
>
> On the afternoon of November 23 the Dallas Police searched Ruth
> Paine's garage and found that two Klein's order coupons had been torn
> from magazines that were nearly identical to the order coupon which
> "A. Hidell" ALLEDGELY sent to Klein's on March 12, 1963. The only
> difference between the coupons ws the "Department Number," which
> identified the month and year of the publication in which the ad
> appeared. The police turned the coupons over to the FBI agent James
> Bookout on Dec. 2, 1963.
>
> One of the coupons contained the notation "Dept. 425," which meant it
> was printed in the June 1963 edition of the American Rifleman. In
> 1970 researcher Paul Hoch discovered that this coupon MATCHED
> PERFECTLY with the June 1963 edition of American Rifleman-one of the 7
> magazines given to the FBI by Adrian Alba on November 23, 1963. The
> magazine in which the second coupon was published, with the notation
> "Dept. 222," remains unknown. Harvey and Lee pgs. 456-7.
CJ in Chief Curry's book on page 99 Curry shows a page fom a magazine
which is the Klein Sporting Goods ad. The caption below the ad
reads:......
Exhibit No.43
" A Duplicate of the ad from which Oswald purchased the rifle in the
name of A.Hidell, PO Box 2915, Dallas Texas". Both the order coupon
and money order used for the purchase were idebtified by handwriting
experts ashaving been filled out by Lee Harvey Oswald.
On page 248 of Gary savage's book 1st Day Evidence there is a copy of
the same ad that is on page 99 of Curry's book. Here's what savage
wrote about that Klein's ad..
Quote on
"One piece of evidence which Rusty has that will help settle another
controversial charge against investigators is a copy of a magazine ad
FOUND AMONG ( caps mine) Oswald's belongings. The 6.5 Mannlicher
Carcano rifle and .38 special Smith & Wesson revolver were circled on
the discovered magazine ad from Klein's Sporting Goods in the American
Rifleman. Rusty alsi has a copy of the magazine facing page the one
with the ad on it.
The importance of Rusty's copy lies in the fact that it was made from
the original ad found by the Dallas police showing a rifle with a
length of 40 " overall. This wa before the warren Commission published
a similar ad in the Commission exhibits showing a 36" rifle. This
discrepancy was discovered by researchers , and another charge was
leveled concerning manipulation of the evidence. The charge is
understandable , but is shown to be a moot point. The original ad
which Rust copied shows the rifle to be 40" overall. Whatever happened
to the later ad in it's handling by others is meaningless since now an
independent source can verify the validity of the original ad."
Quote off
The ad that the DPD had was ffrom the November issue of Guns & Ammo
( Dept 472)
Obviously Oswald never used this ad from a November 1963 magazine to
order a rifle in February 1963.
The FACT that someone circled the MC and the S&W pistol is stong
evidence that someone at DPD was using it evidence against Oswald.
They claimed the found it among his possessions, but this is highly
doubful. The whole episode about the Klein ad stinks like a rotten
fish...
YoHarvey
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Commission attorney Belin interruped Holmes and said, "Pardon me a
second." Belin then had a discussion with Holmes "off the record"
and
probably warned him not to say anything else about feeding bits of
information to the FBI and Secret Service.
Probably? Very popular word with Ct's.....along with maybe, couldbe,
perhaps, hypothetically, amazingly...and the beat goes on.
Speculation, theory and innuendo. 44 years of it...never changes
until these guys are in the grave. Can't wait for that moment.
curtjester1
if there was an order there, was it Klein's modus operandi to throw
those forms away?
> Of course they had forever to do anything like make a form up, make
> copies and such.That was allegedly the A. HIdell form...which is very
> dubious. They said the form 'was' from an American Rifleman issue that
> was from
> Feb. 1963, but they didn't know that there were no 40-inch rifles
> sold at the time, only 36-inch. Caught. The FBI was trying to track
> the money order....and never could substantiate anything through
> Klein's with any banking endorements, all on Nov. 23.
>
> If I understand you....Then you're saying that The FBI had six months
> to create false documents like the envelope, the money order; etc....
> If they had all that time and they were planning on setting LHO up all
> that time don't you think they could have created an undetectable
> false trail??
>
Once they had the microfilm, they had control. They didn't have to
say or show anything til the WC was underway.
> The order blank is definitely from the the February 1963 issue of
> American Rifleman. That FACT is verified by the Department number on
> the order blank. Dept 358 identifies it as being published in the Feb.
> 63 issue of American Rifleman.
That was the FBI's alleged order blank. That advertisement read: 6.5
ITALIAN CARBINE. Only 36" overall, weighs only 5 1/2 lbs. Shows only
slight use, lightly oiled, test fired, and head spaced, ready for
shooting. Turned down bolt, thumb safety, 6-shot clip fed. Rear open
sight. Fast loading and fast firing. C20-T1196, Specially priced....
$12.88. C20- T750. Carbine with Brand New Good Quality 4X Scope- 3/4"
diamter, as illustrated...$19.95. E20- T751. 6.5mm Italian military
ammo with free 6-shot clip. 108 rds...$7.50
>
But carton #3376 was not listed on the delivery sheet. Somehow they
knew it came from Crescent as it showed they sold C2766 to Klein's,
and that didn't match the dates....Crescent sold them in June of 1962.
> And Kleins definitely had 40 inch Carcanos in their possession in
> February of 1963. The shipping invoice from lipshutz verifies this
> FACT. So no matter that the ad specified a 36 inch Carbine, they
> could have sent a 40 inch rifle to Dallas Texas.
>
Not according to Armstong. Klein's advertised and sold only 36-inch
through March of 1963.
>
>
> > 9:00 am, November 23, 1963 - Crescent City Garage - New Orleans
>
> > A few hours after FBI agents left Klein's Sporting Goods in Chicago a
> > young man walked into Adrian Alba's garage (where they previously saw
> > LEE getting an envelope by FBI people) in New Orleans (next door to
> > Reily Coffee where Oswald worked in the summer of 1963) around 9:00
> > am. The young man told Alba's employee, Jesse Patrick McNeil, that he
> > was one of Adrian's best friends and wanted to borrow some sports
> > magazines. After receiving permission the unidentified man helped
> > himself to the magazines and left within two or three minutes.
>
> > On the afternoon of November 23 FBI agents visited Alba's garage and
> > picked up 7 magazines: American Rifleman. June thru November, 1963;
> > Guns and Hunting, Jan. 1964; Field and Stream, Dec. 1958. These
> > magazines were immediately sent to the FBI laboratory in Washington
> > DC. On page 59 of the June 1963 edition of the American Rifleman a
> > Klein's order coupon had been torn out. The FBI laboratory was
> > requested to determine if the order blank mailed to Klein's on March
> > 12 by "A. Hidell" was torn from this magazine.
>
> This doesn't even make sense..... How could an orderblank from a
> magazine published in June have been used to order a rifle in
> February???
>
They didn't. They either picked out a blank or if they had one then
they would have got a 36 inch rifle.
> However..... I would like to know more about the FBI grabbing
> magazines at Alba's... Do you know anymore??
>
No, and I don't know how or why they got there so quick.
> The FBI laboratory
>
> > determined the order coupon mailed by Hidell did not come from any of
> > the 7 magazines.
>
> It doesn't take the FBI to figure out where the order blank came from.
>
Well, Klein's 'claimed' it was on microfilm, but didn't have the
banking system support for the rifle or corresponding payment for
it...and found no records for the sale of C2766 in March of 1963.
I would just speculate that the FBI released copies from the microfilm
that would have all that in 'apple pie order', and really most
researchers at the time would have taken their word for it.
> The FACT that someone circled the MC and the S&W pistol is stong
> evidence that someone at DPD was using it evidence against Oswald.
> They claimed the found it among his possessions, but this is highly
> doubful. The whole episode about the Klein ad stinks like a rotten
> fish...
>
They have stuff in the book on the pistol, but I haven't read it yet.
CJ
curtjester1
And of course being off the record is obviously for ordering some food
at the local deli.
CJ
curtjester1
> On 24 Jan, 14:56, curtjester1 <curtjest...@hotmail.com> wrote:> On 23 Jan, 21:34, Walt <papakochenb...@evertek.net> wrote:
>
> However..... I would like to know more about the FBI grabbing
> magazines at Alba's... Do you know anymore??
>
> The FBI laboratory
>
> > determined the order coupon mailed by Hidell did not come from any of
> > the 7 magazines.
>
> It doesn't take the FBI to figure out where the order blank came from.
>
>
The more I think about this, the only reason they would even to Alba's
is if they were tipped off. And to go through and OBTAIN order blanks
from magazines when there are many other sources to get magazines with
MC's in them beckons scrutiny. Of course they wouldn't have to get
these magazines as in many of them (7) unless they wanted to examine
something. One magazine with an MC ad would have sufficed. So,
obviously what they did, is find a mail order place that they could
create a paper trail from, so they took a month (Feb. 1963) that would
probably fit in with the fake backyard photos, and give them something
concrete to pin it (already as in soon) on Oswald. Unfortunately they
made a mistake in creating a form from an issue that didn't have the
weapon's length found in the TSBD. Now you say Klein's had those in
stock prior. Can you prove that?
CJ
