LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD
DAnde9348
Anthony Marsh wrote:
>
> >Please don't try to convince us that you actually believe it was Oswald
> >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one left who
> >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It seems
> >that you only profess to believe these wacky things to start flame wars.
> >You'll find that we start to grow tired of your adolescent tactics soon.
> >Why not go over to the Freemasons newsgroup and try your flame war games
> >over there?
> >
> >--
> >Anthony Marsh
>
Walt replied:
> Nice try agent Mush.... but I believe you'll find there are many
researchers
> who still are unconvinced about the identity of the man on the steps of
the
> TSBD in the Altgen's photo. I know the gov't has been trying to bury the
idea
> that Lee was standing on the steps for the last 36 years.
> But before they can bury it they have to kill it ....and that's what yer
trying
> to do ...
>
> Good Luck....
>
> Walt
Toml Wrote:
Please count me among the peop;e that STILL believe that it's LHO & NOT
Lovelady in the Altgens photo...
Stand & be Counted!!
Hello Tom,
Regarding your contention about the man on the TSBD steps in James Altgens
photo, being LHO. Last night, I was reviewing some old correspondence between
myself and Dr. John Johnson of Belle Mead N.J. last night. Dr. Johnson pointed
out that Billy Lovelady said he was standing on the TSBD steps when JFK passed
in front of the TSBD, and many people think that his statement is verification
that the man in the Altgens photo is Lovelady…..
I'm fairly sure the man in the Altgens photo is Lee Harvey Oswald. I believe
that Lovelady was standing on the steps when JFK passed by…. BUT…. he was on a
lower step, closer to the street than the man in the Altgens photo. Bill
Shelley testified that Lovelady was SITTING on the steps IN FRONT of him when
the JFK passed by…. I can easily imagine Lovelady sitting on the steps until
the President's car came near. I believe he probably would have stood at that
time.
An amateur photographer named Martin took some movie footage which showed the
front step area of the TSBD at the time of the shooting, and he took some
footage about twenty minutes after the shooting. His film which he took
twenty minutes after the shooting ( see page 187 of TKOAP ) shows a balding man
in a red plaid shirt.
There is no doubt that this man is lovelady. ( THIS, Martin photo, and NOT the
Altgens photo is the photo that Lovelady is talking about when he swears that
the man in the picture is himself. )
There is no doubt that the Martin photo shows Lovelady near the entrance to the
TSBD…..AND …. he has his shirt buttoned to one button down from the collar
button. The shirt is pulled forward in the manner of a fully buttoned shirt.
True …this photo was taken twenty minutes after the shooting and he could have
buttoned his shirt during the interim but even allowing for that possibility
the shirt he's wearing in the Martin photo fits his body totally different that
the shirt seen on the man in the Altgens photo.
The shirt on the man in the Altgens photo appears to be unbuttoned at least
half way down the shirt front. ( Oswald's rust colored shirt had no buttons
above the halfway point so it would have been impossible for him to button his
shirt above the halfway point.
Furthermore the shirt on the man in the Altgens photo is NOT a pronounced plaid
like Lovelady's shirt. While there will be those who continue to believe the
man in the doorway is lovelady…..I believe the man is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Walt
Leo Sgouros
Get a tailor to confirm this button business.
DAnde9348 <dand...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991207152748...@ng-ce1.aol.com...
> that the man in the Altgens photo is Lovelady...
>
> I'm fairly sure the man in the Altgens photo is Lee Harvey Oswald. I
believe
> that Lovelady was standing on the steps when JFK passed by.. BUT.. he was
on a
> lower step, closer to the street than the man in the Altgens photo. Bill
> Shelley testified that Lovelady was SITTING on the steps IN FRONT of him
when
> the JFK passed by.. I can easily imagine Lovelady sitting on the steps
until
> the President's car came near. I believe he probably would have stood at
that
> time.
>
> An amateur photographer named Martin took some movie footage which showed
the
> front step area of the TSBD at the time of the shooting, and he took some
> footage about twenty minutes after the shooting. His film which he took
> twenty minutes after the shooting ( see page 187 of TKOAP ) shows a
balding man
> in a red plaid shirt.
> There is no doubt that this man is lovelady. ( THIS, Martin photo, and
NOT the
> Altgens photo is the photo that Lovelady is talking about when he swears
that
> the man in the picture is himself. )
>
> There is no doubt that the Martin photo shows Lovelady near the entrance
to the
> TSBD...AND .. he has his shirt buttoned to one button down from the collar
> button. The shirt is pulled forward in the manner of a fully buttoned
shirt.
> True .this photo was taken twenty minutes after the shooting and he could
have
> buttoned his shirt during the interim but even allowing for that
possibility
> the shirt he's wearing in the Martin photo fits his body totally different
that
> the shirt seen on the man in the Altgens photo.
>
> The shirt on the man in the Altgens photo appears to be unbuttoned at
least
> half way down the shirt front. ( Oswald's rust colored shirt had no
buttons
> above the halfway point so it would have been impossible for him to button
his
> shirt above the halfway point.
> Furthermore the shirt on the man in the Altgens photo is NOT a pronounced
plaid
> like Lovelady's shirt. While there will be those who continue to believe
the
> man in the doorway is lovelady...I believe the man is Lee Harvey Oswald.
>
> Walt
>
Sam McClung
> Dr. Johnson pointed
> out that Billy Lovelady said he was standing on the TSBD steps when JFK passed
> in front of the TSBD, and many people think that his statement is verification
> that the man in the Altgens photo is Lovelady…..
> <snippage>
> While there will be those who continue to believe the
> man in the doorway is lovelady…..I believe the man is Lee Harvey Oswald.
Walt,
On a different level of perspective, a person in the doorway would not
technically be on the steps, would they, but rather on the "floor" above
the steps?
Sam
JWOODSE...@webtv.net
Sprague prove that it was Lovelady on the steps of the TSBD back in the
late 1960's.
The best way to compare is to use the black and white film footage, the
color footages are often misleading.
Sincerely yours,
John R. Woods
"I speak truth, not so much as I would,
but as much as I dare; and I dare a little the more as I grow older."
{Montaigne}
Dr. Science
says...
...
> While there will be those who continue to believe the
>man in the doorway is lovelady…..I believe the man is Lee Harvey Oswald.
>
>Walt
>
Ahhhh, yes, but which Oswald? That's the question.
Martin Shackelford
in the doorway; matching the Wiegman and Couch films and the Altgens
photo.
Martin
--
Martin Shackelford
"You're going to find that many of the truths we
cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
-Obi-Wan Kenobi
"You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
Offissa Pup
Pup
archsta...@my-deja.com
dand...@aol.com (DAnde9348) wrote:
>
>
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
> >
> > >Please don't try to convince us that you actually believe it was
Oswald
> > >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one
left who
> > >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It
seems
> > >that you only profess to believe these wacky things to start flame
wars.
> > >You'll find that we start to grow tired of your adolescent tactics
soon.
> > >Why not go over to the Freemasons newsgroup and try your flame war
games
> > >over there?
> > >
> > >--
> > >Anthony Marsh
> >
>
> Walt replied:
> > Nice try agent Mush.... but I believe you'll find there are many
> researchers
of
> the
> > TSBD in the Altgen's photo. I know the gov't has been trying to
bury the
> idea
> > that Lee was standing on the steps for the last 36 years.
> > But before they can bury it they have to kill it ....and that's what
yer
> trying
> > to do ...
> >
> > Good Luck....
> >
> > Walt
>
> Toml Wrote:
> Please count me among the peop;e that STILL believe that it's LHO &
NOT
> Lovelady in the Altgens photo...
>
> Stand & be Counted!!
>
> Hello Tom,
> Regarding your contention about the man on the TSBD steps in James
Altgens
> photo, being LHO. Last night, I was reviewing some old correspondence
between
Johnson pointed
> out that Billy Lovelady said he was standing on the TSBD steps when
JFK passed
> in front of the TSBD, and many people think that his statement is
verification
> that the man in the Altgens photo is Lovelady…..
>
believe
was on a
> lower step, closer to the street than the man in the Altgens photo.
Bill
> Shelley testified that Lovelady was SITTING on the steps IN FRONT of
him when
steps until
> the President's car came near. I believe he probably would have stood
at that
> time.
>
> An amateur photographer named Martin took some movie footage which
showed the
> front step area of the TSBD at the time of the shooting, and he took
some
> footage about twenty minutes after the shooting. His film which he
took
> twenty minutes after the shooting ( see page 187 of TKOAP ) shows a
balding man
> in a red plaid shirt.
> There is no doubt that this man is lovelady. ( THIS, Martin photo,
and NOT the
> Altgens photo is the photo that Lovelady is talking about when he
> the man in the picture is himself. )
>
> There is no doubt that the Martin photo shows Lovelady near the
entrance to the
collar
> button. The shirt is pulled forward in the manner of a fully
buttoned shirt.
could have
> buttoned his shirt during the interim but even allowing for that
possibility
> the shirt he's wearing in the Martin photo fits his body totally
different that
> the shirt seen on the man in the Altgens photo.
>
> The shirt on the man in the Altgens photo appears to be unbuttoned at
least
> half way down the shirt front. ( Oswald's rust colored shirt had no
buttons
> above the halfway point so it would have been impossible for him to
button his
> shirt above the halfway point.
> Furthermore the shirt on the man in the Altgens photo is NOT a
pronounced plaid
believe the
> man in the doorway is lovelady…..I believe the man is Lee Harvey
Oswald.
>
> Walt
>
>
Walt, help me out here. Don't I remember seeing a photo of Oswald *in
custody* wearing a shirt exactly like the one the guy on the steps was
wearing? As I recall, that's what started the "Oswald on the Steps"
controversy in the first place.
--
Arch Stanton
"You just have to trust us. We're honorable men."
--Richard Helms
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Pittelli
>
>Sprague prove that it was Lovelady on the steps of the TSBD back in the
>late 1960's.
Don't you think "prove" (or proved) is a bit of a strong word? What can you
really prove from a photograph? I don't think you can even "prove" that it was
JFK in the limo.
DAnde9348
>From: JWOODSE...@webtv.net
>Date: Tue, 07 December 1999 05:10 PM EST
>Message-id: <3344-384...@storefull-267.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>
>Walt-
>
>Sprague prove that it was Lovelady on the steps of the TSBD back in the
>late 1960's.
>The best way to compare is to use the black and white film footage, the
>color footages are often misleading.
>
>
Hello John,
I'm not convinced one way or the other about this....I lean toward The man
being Oswald...... However, I'm still lokking for definitive"proof".... How
did Sprague "prove" that it was Lovelady?
Walt
Todd W. Vaughan
dand...@aol.com (DAnde9348) wrote:
>
>
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
> >
> > >Please don't try to convince us that you actually believe it was
Oswald
> > >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one
left who
> > >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It
seems
> > >that you only profess to believe these wacky things to start flame
wars.
> > >You'll find that we start to grow tired of your adolescent tactics
soon.
> > >Why not go over to the Freemasons newsgroup and try your flame war
games
> > >over there?
> > >
> > >--
> > >Anthony Marsh
> >
>
> Walt replied:
> > Nice try agent Mush.... but I believe you'll find there are many
> researchers
steps of
> the
Walt,
Assume for a minute that you're correct, that Oswald is standing on the
steps.
Then why did he claim he was eating his lunch in the TSBD lunchroom?
--
Todd W. Vaughan
Jerry
Walt is immune to logical argument. You'll just make him cross as a
baby ready to spitup if you implicitly demand that he think through to
the logical consequences of his position.
Better ask him about the bullet that drilled straight through JFK's tie
and transited the body, taking with it a piece of JFK's shirt -- which
Walt sees in the Croft photo.
Or let him explain that the Dillard photos PROVE that nobody was in the
SN window at the time of the assassination.
And ask him about the bullet that struck the windowsill near the SN --
Walt sees it's "contrail" in a Dillard photo and has verified the
damage to the window via binocular viewing.
Or ask him to explain how Oswald's undesireable discharge, signed
by "Good Schiffer" was a secret message to him in the USSR praising him
for the good work he was doing as a spy.
Jerry
Todd W. Vaughan
Jerry,
I don't think I could take all of that...I think I'll just cave and
agree that LHO is on the steps.
--
Todd W. Vaughan
Todd W. Vaughan
Jerry,
Did I tell you my theory about how I think Walt shot JFK?
--
Todd W. Vaughan
AnthonyMarsh
> custody* wearing a shirt exactly like the one the guy on the steps was
> wearing? As I recall, that's what started the "Oswald on the Steps"
> controversy in the first place.
Close. The shirt was very similar, but if you can follow what I mean the
small stripes were much brighter on Lovelady's plaid shirt than
Oswald's. On some poor quality prints the Lovelady shirt looks too dark
and thus easily confused with Oswald's.
> --
> Arch Stanton
>
> "You just have to trust us. We're honorable men."
> --Richard Helms
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
Anthony Marsh
The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
DAnde9348
>Date: Wed, 08 December 1999 04:41 AM EST
>Message-id: <82l942$rfj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>Walt, help me out here. Don't I remember seeing a photo of Oswald *in
>custody* wearing a shirt exactly like the one the guy on the steps was
>wearing? As I recall, that's what started the "Oswald on the Steps"
>controversy in the first place.
>--
Hello Arch...
Your asking a VERY VERY good question....
>I remember seeing a photo of Oswald *in
>custody* wearing a shirt exactly like the one the guy on the steps was
>wearing?
Oswald was wearing a rust colored shirt with the top two or three buttons
missing ( see page 186 of TKOAP ) at the time the TSBD that morning and at the
time of the shooting.....
He Changed his shirt at his rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley at 1:00 pm and
was wearing a GREY shirt at the time of his arrest in the Texas Theater....(see
page 101 TKOAP) There are color pics in the book THe search for LHO which show
the shirt to be GREY....and the GREY shirt is the source of the fibers that
were found on the butt. That's what the FBI claimed ...... Oswald was wearing
the BROWN shirt at the time of the shooting .......so how could the fibers on
the butt of the rifle match the GREY shirt....
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 07 December 1999 05:10 PM EST
>Message-id: <3344-384...@storefull-267.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>Walt-
>
>Sprague prove that it was Lovelady on the steps of the TSBD back in the
>late 1960's.
Hello John..... If Richard Sprague proved the man in the doorway of the TSBD
in the Altgens photo was Lovelady....Why did the HSCA send Robert Groden to
interview and photograph Lovelady in 1976?
Apparently the HSCA was convinced....
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Wed, 08 December 1999 12:43 PM EST
>Message-id: <82m5ca$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>Walt,
>
>Assume for a minute that you're correct, that Oswald is standing on the
>steps.
>
>Then why did he claim he was eating his lunch in the TSBD lunchroom?
>
>
>--
>Todd W. Vaughan
>
>
Hello Todd,..... Keep in mind that we don't have a certified record of what
Oswald said while in custody..... BUT IF IF he said he was eating his lunch
.... I see no great contradiction..... If they asked him where he was and what
he was doing at the time of the shooting he could very easily have replied that
he was in the lunchroom eating lunch.....meaning that was PRIMARILY eating his
lunch at the time....that doesn't mean that he didn't interrrupt his lunch to
go to the front steps.....
walt
AnthonyMarsh
>
> Arch,
>
> Here's a comparison graphic you may find of use.
>
> Sam
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
I do not believe that it was Oswald in the entrance of the TSBD, but
rather that it was Lovelady. However, I do notice something which would
tend to support the speculation. It appears that the guy in the entrance
to the TSBD had his shirt buttoned up almost exactly to the same extent
as Oswald did. But remember that the shirt Oswald was wearing in that
photo was the one he changed into after work. I don't think we have any
photos of Oswald in the shirt he wore to work, do we?
AnthonyMarsh
>
> In article <19991207152748...@ng-ce1.aol.com>,
> dand...@aol.com (DAnde9348) wrote:
> >
> >
> > Anthony Marsh wrote:
> > >
> > > >Please don't try to convince us that you actually believe it was
> Oswald
> > > >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one
> left who
> > > >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It
> seems
> > > >that you only profess to believe these wacky things to start flame
> wars.
> > > >You'll find that we start to grow tired of your adolescent tactics
> soon.
> > > >Why not go over to the Freemasons newsgroup and try your flame war
> games
> > > >over there?
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Anthony Marsh
> > >
> >
> > Walt replied:
> > > Nice try agent Mush.... but I believe you'll find there are many
> > researchers
> steps of
> > the
> entrance to the
>
> Assume for a minute that you're correct, that Oswald is standing on the
> steps.
>
> Then why did he claim he was eating his lunch in the TSBD lunchroom?
>
Not my theory, but assume for a minute that Oswald really had been
eating his lunch. Then why didn't he mention that he was in front of the
TSBD and how could both be true. One possibility is that Oswald HAD
eaten his lunch in the first floor lunchroom and went out the front of
the TSBD to see what all the commotion was about. So, both would be
true. He had already eaten his lunch on the first floor and went up to
the second floor to get a Coke, but did not know the exact time of the
assassination.
> --
> Todd W. Vaughan
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
tomnln
REPORTED that LHO said that!!!
> Walt,
>
> Assume for a minute that you're correct, that Oswald is standing on the
> steps.
>
> Then why did he claim he was eating his lunch in the TSBD lunchroom?
>
>
tomnln
have been
lying to us for 36 years...
> Not my theory, but assume for a minute that Oswald really had been
> eating his lunch. Then why didn't he mention that he was in front of the
> TSBD and how could both be true. One possibility is that Oswald HAD
> eaten his lunch in the first floor lunchroom and went out the front of
> the TSBD to see what all the commotion was about. So, both would be
> true. He had already eaten his lunch on the first floor and went up to
> the second floor to get a Coke, but did not know the exact time of the
> assassination.
>
> > --
> > Todd W. Vaughan
> >
> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Before you buy.
>
>
tomnln
of the rifle????
"AnthonyMarsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
news:384ED0C2...@quik.com...
Martin Shackelford
what Oswald was wearing. But various patterns, shot from that distance and
blown up, would look about the same. Color images show a pattern similar to
Lovelady's shirt as it appears in the Martin film.
Martin
archsta...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > There is no doubt that the Martin photo shows Lovelady near the
> entrance to the
> Walt, help me out here. Don't I remember seeing a photo of Oswald *in
> custody* wearing a shirt exactly like the one the guy on the steps was
> wearing? As I recall, that's what started the "Oswald on the Steps"
> controversy in the first place.
> --
> Arch Stanton
>
> "You just have to trust us. We're honorable men."
> --Richard Helms
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
--
DAnde9348
>Date: Wed, 08 December 1999 04:45 PM EST
>Message-id: <384ED0C2...@quik.com
I don't think we have any photos of Oswald in the shirt he wore to work, do we?
>Anthony Marsh
A coloreded picture of the shirt Oswald wore to work is displayed on page 186
of TKOAP... This shirt matches the discription that Mrs Bledsoe said she saw
him wearing on the bus just minutes after the shooting ( the right elbow has a
large hole ).....and it matches the color of the shirt that Linnie Mae Randle
saw LHO wearing that morning. It also matches the description of the shirt
that the DPD Detectives found in Oswalds Room at 1026 N. Beckley.......
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Wed, 08 December 1999 05:02 PM EST
>Message-id: <82mki2$s04$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>Walt is immune to logical argument. You'll just make him cross as a
>baby ready to spitup if you implicitly demand that he think through to
>the logical consequences of his position.
Hey Jelly ....we've got a good discussion going here ....you obviously don't
have anything to contribute.... so just pacify yourself with the "candy bar"
that the warren Commission gave you.....
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 01:56 AM EST
>Message-id: <384F525C...@concentric.net>
>
>
>When blown up from a tiny bit of negative, the shirt looks something like
>what Oswald was wearing. But various patterns, shot from that distance and
>blown up, would look about the same. Color images show a pattern similar to
>Lovelady's shirt as it appears in the Martin film.
>
>Martin
Martin..... I disagree I don't think the shirt on the man in the doorway has
the pronounced plaid of of Lovelady's shirt...BUT I find the way the shirt FITS
the man shows that it is NOT lovelady..... The photos of Lovelady which were
taken about twenty minutes after the shooting show that he has his shirt
buttoned AND the shirt fits him in a snug manner ( like a shirt that was a size
too small or a small cut shirt ) The shirt on the man in the doorway ( Oswald)
hangs on him like a shirt that was as size too large.
Walt
Blastforth
Does ANY witness claim to have seen Oswald on the steps of the TSBD at the time
of shooting?
Here's Lovelady's testismony:
Mr. Ball.
I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?
Mr. Lovelady.
Yes, sir.
Mr. Ball.
Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr. Lovelady.
Where I thought the shots are?
Mr. Ball.
No; you in the picture.
Mr. Lovelady.
Oh, here (indicating).
Mr. Ball.
Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and
one in the white pointing toward you. Where
were you when the picture was taken?
Mr. Lovelady.
Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be
here (indicating).
Mr. Ball.
You were standing on which step?
Mr. Lovelady.
It would be your top level.
Mr. Ball.
The top step you were standing there?
Mr. Lovelady.
Right.
Earlier in his testimony, Lovelady testified that he last saw Oswald that day
when he (Lovelady) was going down the elevator for lunch. Does anyone seriously
think Lovelady is lying or mistaken about this?
In article <19991209112343...@ng-ci1.aol.com>, dand...@aol.com
says...
DAnde9348
>Date: Wed, 08 December 1999 10:37 AM EST
>Message-id: <19991208103734...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
>
>
>>Walt, help me out here. Don't I remember seeing a photo of Oswald *in
>>custody* wearing a shirt exactly like the one the guy on the steps was
>>wearing? As I recall, that's what started the "Oswald on the Steps"
>>controversy in the first place.
Arch there are several pictures of Oswald in custody which show him in the GREY
shirt that the FBI said matched the fibers that were found on the butt of the
rifle that was found in the TSBD.....
The implication was that Oswald had fired the rifle while wearing that GREY
shirt and the rifle had snagged some fibers from that shirt.
There is documented proof from the DPD itself that Oswald changed shirts at the
roominghouse at 1:00pm. The FBI said the fibers were fresh and had not been on
the rifle for a long period of time. So how could the fibers possibly match
the shirt Oswald was wearing at the time of his arrest? IF Oswald had been the
killer the fibers should have matched the BROWN shirt he was wearing at the
TSBD this morning.
A couple of weeks ago there was a news story involving the FBI......I don't
recall where I heard the story ( maybe 60 Minutes? ) The story was about a
guy in Florida who had been convicted of a crime based on some fibers from a
blanket. The Fibers from the suspect had been sent to the FBI crime lab and a
blanet had also been sent.....The FBI lab found that the fibers matched the
blanket and that lab report convicted the suspect..... Later it was discovered
that a blanket that had no connection with the crime had been sent to the FBI
and it would have been impossible for those fibers to have matched.....
I was struck by the similarity between the two cases of the FBI labs finding
fibers "matching" where it was impossible .....
Walt
Gary Mack
co-workers and supervisor, who were standing near Lovelady on the steps,
have been lying since 1963. Are we to believe they would all go along with
"the story" knowing that Oswald was an innocent man?
Furthermore, controversial as Robert Groden is, he made blowups from the
original Altgens negative that were sharp enough to see the shirt pattern
clearly. He and an HSCA staffer interviewed Lovelady in person in Colorado
and photographed him in 1977 in that shirt. Lovelady also posed in the
shirt on the TSBD steps at least twice in the sixties, once for CBS and once
for the Dallas Times Herald, and those pictures survive.
Lovelady told me just a few months before his early death that when the FBI
asked him to come down to their office for photos, he offered to wear the
same shirt he had on that day. They said it wasn't necessary, so that's why
the pictures show him in a different shirt.
The shirt, by the way, was a 59 cent item from the Salvation Army. Wonder
where it is today?
--
Gary Mack
Archivist
The Sixth Floor Museum at Dealey Plaza
Blastforth <Blastfor...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:82oogt$26...@drn.newsguy.com...
> >><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD
> >>From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
> >>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 01:56 AM EST
> >>Message-id: <384F525C...@concentric.net>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >>When blown up from a tiny bit of negative, the shirt looks something
like
> >>what Oswald was wearing. But various patterns, shot from that distance
and
> >>blown up, would look about the same. Color images show a pattern similar
to
> >>Lovelady's shirt as it appears in the Martin film.
> >>
> >>Martin
> >
> >Martin..... I disagree I don't think the shirt on the man in the
doorway has
> >the pronounced plaid of of Lovelady's shirt...BUT I find the way the
shirt FITS
> >the man shows that it is NOT lovelady..... The photos of Lovelady which
were
> >taken about twenty minutes after the shooting show that he has his shirt
> >buttoned AND the shirt fits him in a snug manner ( like a shirt that was
a size
> >too small or a small cut shirt ) The shirt on the man in the doorway
DAnde9348
>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 02:32 PM EST
></PRE></HTML>
Hello AK.....
The pics you posted look like they came from page 186 & 187 of TKOAP. Why
didn't you post the pics of lovelady in the plaid shirt? Is it because the
pics of BL in the plaid shirt shows that he had his shirt buttoned? Or was it
because martin photos show that the shirt fits Lovelady much more snuggly than
the shirt on the guy in the Altgens photo?
Walt
Kane
>
> The pics you posted look like they came from page 186 & 187 of TKOAP.
Why
> didn't you post the pics of lovelady in the plaid shirt? Is it because
the
> pics of BL in the plaid shirt shows that he had his shirt buttoned? Or
was it
> because martin photos show that the shirt fits Lovelady much more snuggly
than
> the shirt on the guy in the Altgens photo?
>
> Walt
Hi walt
You're right they are from TKOAP, don't you at least agree that the guy in
the Altgens photograph is wearing a plaid shirt, look at the white lines on
his sleeve, this is not the shirt that Oswald had on.
About the buttoned thing, I think the way he is leaning in the Altgens
photograph is what causes his shirt to fall open, in the other photograph
(TKOAP 187 top right) his shirt looks buttoned but its not, its cause he's
standing up straight, if you look closely you can see the top button is
undone.
Or do you mean the top left images on the same page, in those there is a big
black shadow on his chest, you can't see if its buttoned or not.
Anyway I am convinced it's BL, would be great if this was oswald though.
Kane
DAnde9348
>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 12:22 PM EST
>Message-id: <82oogt$26...@drn.newsguy.com>
> Lovelady testified that he last saw Oswald that day
>when he (Lovelady) was going down the elevator for lunch. Does anyone
>seriously
>think Lovelady is lying or mistaken about this?
No, Lovelady was probably truthful and correct that the last time he saw Oswald
that day was while he was departing on the elevator.....
What's that got to do with anything??
walt
JWOODSE...@webtv.net
the photographic evidence, I gave up and I will state that it was Oswald
on the steps (but in my heart and soul, the truth is it was Lovelady)
Sincerely yours,
John R. Woods
"I speak truth, not so much as I would,
but as much as I dare; and I dare a little the more as I grow older."
{Montaigne}
DAnde9348
>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 04:54 PM EST
>Message-id: <0xV34.239$w3.1...@amoeba1.soneraplaza.nl>
>
>
Hello Kane.... to save time and confusion, I'll insert my reply or comment in
your post.
>Hi walt
>
>You're right they are from TKOAP, don't you at least agree that the guy in
>the Altgens photograph is wearing a plaid shirt, look at the white lines on
>his sleeve, this is not the shirt that Oswald had on.
Kane some copies of the Altgens photo seem to indicate the shirt is plaid while
others don't give that impression.... Since I KNOW that photos were tampered
with by the authorities I don't trust the "plaid" image in some of the
photos...
>About the buttoned thing, I think the way he is leaning in the Altgens
photograph is what causes his shirt to fall open, in the other photograph
(TKOAP 187 top right) his shirt looks buttoned but its not, its cause he's
standing up straight, if you look closely you can see the top button is
>undone. The pic at the top right was taken in 1971.... it is NOT one of the
Martin pics taken twenty minutes after the shooting... Those pics at seen on
the top LEFT of page 187 and his shirt is buttoned.... BUT more important
NOTICE how the shirt FITS him in the Martin pics....
>Or do you mean the top left images on the same page, in those there is a big
>black shadow on his chest, you can't see if its buttoned or not.
Perhaps not BUT Notice how the shirt is pulled forward in a manner of a
buttoned shirt......
>Anyway I am convinced it's BL, would be great if this was oswald though.
>
>Kane
>
I hope I've as least gave you pause to reconsider.....
walt
Martin Shackelford
the window, and published evidence of the altered Walker home photo. Those
liars?
Martin
tomnln wrote:
> The Law Officers who have been PROVEN to be Lying to us for 36 years
> REPORTED that LHO said that!!!
>
> > Walt,
> >
> > Assume for a minute that you're correct, that Oswald is standing on the
> > steps.
> >
> > Then why did he claim he was eating his lunch in the TSBD lunchroom?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Todd W. Vaughan
> >
> >
Martin Shackelford
The shirt and rifle were photographed lying together in a DPD evidence
photo.
Martin
tomnln wrote:
> Then HOW did they find fibres from the dhirt he was arrested in on the Butt
> of the rifle????
>
> "AnthonyMarsh" <ama...@quik.com> wrote in message
> news:384ED0C2...@quik.com...
> > Sam McClung wrote:
> > >
> > > Arch,
> > >
> > > Here's a comparison graphic you may find of use.
> > >
> > > Sam
> > >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > [Image]
> >
> > I do not believe that it was Oswald in the entrance of the TSBD, but
> > rather that it was Lovelady. However, I do notice something which would
> > tend to support the speculation. It appears that the guy in the entrance
> > to the TSBD had his shirt buttoned up almost exactly to the same extent
> > as Oswald did. But remember that the shirt Oswald was wearing in that
> > photo was the one he changed into after work. I don't think we have any
> > photos of Oswald in the shirt he wore to work, do we?
> >
> > --
> > Anthony Marsh
> > The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
--
Martin Shackelford
plaid shirt on Lovelady in the Martin film. Both are in color.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
posted, as opposed to the fine pattern on Oswald's shirts that day. The
pattern matches the Hughes and Martin films.
charles wallace
Since you study photos, could you look at the bottom of page 2 of my
website and give your opinion of what you see in the photo? The address
is below. Thanks.
My comment this thread:
This person shown on the steps in the front of the TSBD appears to be
on the left side of the stairs. Lovelady claimed to be on the right
side? In the book POTP, Trask shows another photo of this guy but he
appears to be in the middle and not to the left or right side of the
stairs.
Regards,
Charles C. Wallace
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/JFKAssassination
" If you don't see it, so be it." CCW 6/16/99
Todd W. Vaughan
"tomnln" <tom...@home.com> wrote:
> The Law Officers who have been PROVEN to be Lying to us for 36 years
> REPORTED that LHO said that!!!
>
The same ones who report that Oswald said his head was superimposed on
someone else's body in the backyard photographs. Yet you probably
accept that as the case.
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
"tomnln" <tom...@home.com> wrote:
> Please remember that ALL dialogue "attributed" to LHO comes from
people who
> have been
> lying to us for 36 years...
>
So then can we speculate that Oswald admitted owning the Carcano and
they lied when they reported that he denied it?
Todd
> > Not my theory, but assume for a minute that Oswald really had been
> > eating his lunch. Then why didn't he mention that he was in front
of the
> > TSBD and how could both be true. One possibility is that Oswald HAD
> > eaten his lunch in the first floor lunchroom and went out the front
of
> > the TSBD to see what all the commotion was about. So, both would be
> > true. He had already eaten his lunch on the first floor and went up
to
> > the second floor to get a Coke, but did not know the exact time of
the
> > assassination.
> >
> > > --
> > > Todd W. Vaughan
> > >
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Anthony Marsh
> > The Puzzle Palace http://www.boston.quik.com/amarsh
>
>
--
Todd W. Vaughan
> >Date: Wed, 08 December 1999 10:37 AM EST
> >Message-id: <19991208103734...@ng-fb1.aol.com>
> >
> >
>
> >>Walt, help me out here. Don't I remember seeing a photo of Oswald
*in
> >>custody* wearing a shirt exactly like the one the guy on the steps
was
> >>wearing? As I recall, that's what started the "Oswald on the Steps"
> >>controversy in the first place.
>
> Arch there are several pictures of Oswald in custody which show him
in the GREY
> shirt that the FBI said matched the fibers that were found on the
butt of the
> rifle that was found in the TSBD.....
The shirt was not grey, but rust colored.
>
> The implication was that Oswald had fired the rifle while wearing
that GREY
> shirt and the rifle had snagged some fibers from that shirt.
>
> There is documented proof from the DPD itself that Oswald changed
shirts at the
> roominghouse at 1:00pm. <
Wrong. According to the record, Oswald said on Friday that he only
changed his pants. Around midnight Friday his shirt was taken as
evidence. Come Saturday he modified his story to say he changed both
his short and pants. I'm sure you can see what is goinf on here.
--
rand...@my-deja.com
ft1.aol.com>,
pitt...@aol.com (Pittelli) wrote:
> >Walt-
> >
> >Sprague prove that it was Lovelady on the
steps of the TSBD back in the
> >late 1960's.
>
> Don't you think "prove" (or proved) is a bit of
a strong word? What can you
> really prove from a photograph? I don't think
you can even "prove" that it was
> JFK in the limo.
> DR. Pitelli, I thought Stephan said you had a
psych discussion group. We miss you at the
retreats and in process group
rand...@my-deja.com
pitt...@aol.com (Pittelli) wrote:
> >Walt-
> >
> >Sprague prove that it was Lovelady on the steps of the TSBD back in
the
> >late 1960's.
>
> Don't you think "prove" (or proved) is a bit of a strong word? What
can you
> really prove from a photograph? I don't think you can even "prove"
that it was
> JFK in the limo.
Could you please tell me how to find your psych question and answer
site? Thanks, Beverly
DAnde9348
>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 08:12 PM EST
>Message-id: <38505342...@concentric.net>
>Note the large patterning on the shirt in the Altgens photo blowup just
>posted, as opposed to the fine pattern on Oswald's shirts that day. The
>pattern matches the Hughes and Martin films.
>Martin
Martin the pattern doesn't mean doodlity....
There are copies of the Altgens photo that show a prounced plaid and others
that do not....
You cited a Robert Groden copy as prove.....Unfortunately Groden has damaged
his credibility by "enhancing" photos to make them say what he wants them to
say....
At this point BECAUSE we have had scoundrels like Groden messing with the
photos we can't rely on them .....
BUT if you look at the way the shirt FITS lovelady in the Martin pics that were
snapped about twenty mins after the shooting you'll see that the shirt is
buttoned up and it fits him snuggly..... The shirt on the man on the steps is
HANGING open and HANGING loosley like a shirt that is too big for the wearer...
Walt
Jfkcia
>> >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one left who
>> >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It seems
I am one of those people stupid enough to think that it is Oswald in the
Altgens's photo. He looks like Lee and is dressed like Lee and he is standing
in front of the building where Lee worked. If it looks like a duck and quacks
like a duck and moves like a duck, it's probably a duck. I'm very suspicious
that all the people surrounding Billy Lovelady- William Shelley, Wesley
Frazier, Sarah Stanton, Carolyn Arnold, are not in the Altgen's photo when they
should be. The area above Lee in the photo has been blackened out, no doubt on
purpose, to hide the fact that Lovelady and group are standing there.
jfkcia.com
Jerry
> >Date: Wed, 08 December 1999 04:45 PM EST
> >Message-id: <384ED0C2...@quik.com
>
work, do we?
>
>
> A coloreded picture of the shirt Oswald wore to work is displayed on
page 186
> of TKOAP... This shirt matches the discription that Mrs Bledsoe said
she saw
> him wearing on the bus just minutes after the shooting ( the right
elbow has a
> large hole ).....and it matches the color of the shirt that Linnie
Mae Randle
> saw LHO wearing that morning. It also matches the description of the
shirt
> that the DPD Detectives found in Oswalds Room at 1026 N.
Beckley.......
>
> Walt
Walt,
Thank you for the information. As fellow researchers, it is good when
we can help one another.
Jerry
DAnde9348
>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 08:30 PM EST
>Message-id: <13039-38...@storefull-136.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>
>This person shown on the steps in the front of the TSBD appears to be
>on the left side of the stairs. Lovelady claimed to be on the right
>side? In the book POTP, Trask shows another photo of this guy but he
>appears to be in the middle and not to the left or right side of the
>stairs.
>Regards,
>Charles C. Wallace
>
>
Hello Charles......
I agree the guy in the pic on page 373 of POTP looks to be in the middle of the
doorway opening...... Just where it would be logical for a person just stepping
out the door to be..... In Altgens photo he has moved to the left ( west) and
is leaning forward to see down Elm street around the corner of the
doorway......
I believe this guy is Oswald......
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Thu, 09 December 1999 03:43 PM EST
>Message-id: <s5055e...@corp.supernews.com>
>
>
>To say LHO was on the steps means one has to assume his co-workers and
supervisor, who were standing near Lovelady on the steps, have been lying since
1963. Are we to believe they would all go along with "the story" knowing that
Oswald was an innocent man?
Gary ... In the excitement and confusion of the moment it's possible that
Oswald could have stepped outside for a moment and not even have been noticed
by his fellow employees..... Their attention was focused on the shooting and
commotion down toward the RR underpass.....
>
>Furthermore, controversial as Robert Groden is, he made blowups from the
>original Altgens negative that were sharp enough to see the shirt pattern
>clearly.
Yes he did.... and since Groden is well known for "enhancing" photos to make
them show what he wants them to show, how can we know he didn't "enhance" the
photo to "show" the plaid of the shirt or how can we know that he didn't
"enhance" other aspects of the photo?
He and an HSCA staffer interviewed Lovelady in person in Colorado
>and photographed him in 1977 in that shirt.
That's a fact.....
Lovelady also posed in the shirt on the TSBD steps at least twice in the
sixties, once for CBS and once for the Dallas Times Herald, and those pictures
survive.
>
Bob Jackson of the DTH posed him on the steps in 1971 ....the pic is on the
upper right hand corner of page 187 of TKOAP.
>Lovelady told me just a few months before his early death that when the FBI
asked him to come down to their office for photos, he offered to wear the same
shirt he had on that day. They said it wasn't necessary, so that's why the
pictures show him in a different shirt.
>
>The shirt, by the way, was a 59 cent item from the Salvation Army. Wonder
>where it is today?
>
>--
>Gary Mack
Gary why did you omit the movie film clips that Martin took of Lovelady near
the TSBD entrance about twenty minutes after the shooting? Those Martin pics
are the best record that the guy on the steps is NOT lovelady....... The
Martin pics show that he has his shirt buttoned AND the shirt FITS him in a
snug fashion .....Not at all the loose hanging shirt that is seen on the man in
the Altgens photo....
Walt
Gary Mack
doorway. He, of course, knew both Lovelady and Oswald as he worked with
them. He had seen Oswald that morning and drove him to work, as you know.
With his friend standing in front of him, as you suggest, he would have to
be lying all these years when he confirms that Lovelady was on the steps and
Oswald was not. I know Frazier, as do a few researchers, and he just
wouldn't be covering up for either man.
The time period covered by the Martin and Hughes films is not well
established. However, having seen both many times, and recently handling
and transferring the original Hughes film to tape, I think your argument,
based on how well the shirt fits in those later sequences, ignores tucking
it into his pants and buttoning some of the buttons...either of which can
account for what you describe as a snug fit.
DAnde9348 <dand...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991210122241...@ng-fb1.aol.com...
DAnde9348
>Message-id: <s52mhk...@corp.supernews.com>
> I think your argument,
>based on how well the shirt fits in those later sequences, ignores tucking
>it into his pants and buttoning some of the buttons...either of which can
>account for what you describe as a snug fit.
Gary..... Not looking at the waist area of the shirt...... I'm referring to the
snugness around the arms, chest, and shoulders...
The red plaid shirt on Lovelady fits snuggly While the shirt of the man on the
steps hangs loosly.....
Walt.
Dr. Ford
his is wearing in the photos following his arrest is in fact not plaid at all.
Where can I find a copy of the Martin photo for comparison?
And does the footage you mention that was taken at the time of the shooting show
the figure you believe to be Oswald in the Altgens photo? Or is that figure no
longer on the steps?
DAnde9348 wrote:
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
> >
> > >Please don't try to convince us that you actually believe it was Oswald
> > >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one left who
> > >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It seems
> > >that you only profess to believe these wacky things to start flame wars.
> > >You'll find that we start to grow tired of your adolescent tactics soon.
> > >Why not go over to the Freemasons newsgroup and try your flame war games
> > >over there?
> > >
> > >--
> > >Anthony Marsh
> >
>
> Walt replied:
> > Nice try agent Mush.... but I believe you'll find there are many
> researchers
> > who still are unconvinced about the identity of the man on the steps of
> the
> > TSBD in the Altgen's photo. I know the gov't has been trying to bury the
> idea
> > that Lee was standing on the steps for the last 36 years.
> > But before they can bury it they have to kill it ....and that's what yer
> trying
> > to do ...
> >
> > Good Luck....
> >
> > Walt
>
> Toml Wrote:
> Please count me among the peop;e that STILL believe that it's LHO & NOT
> Lovelady in the Altgens photo...
>
> Stand & be Counted!!
>
> Hello Tom,
> Regarding your contention about the man on the TSBD steps in James Altgens
> photo, being LHO. Last night, I was reviewing some old correspondence between
> myself and Dr. John Johnson of Belle Mead N.J. last night. Dr. Johnson pointed
> out that Billy Lovelady said he was standing on the TSBD steps when JFK passed
> in front of the TSBD, and many people think that his statement is verification
> that the man in the Altgens photo is Lovelady…..
>
> I'm fairly sure the man in the Altgens photo is Lee Harvey Oswald. I believe
> that Lovelady was standing on the steps when JFK passed by…. BUT…. he was on a
> lower step, closer to the street than the man in the Altgens photo. Bill
> Shelley testified that Lovelady was SITTING on the steps IN FRONT of him when
> the JFK passed by…. I can easily imagine Lovelady sitting on the steps until
> the President's car came near. I believe he probably would have stood at that
> time.
>
> An amateur photographer named Martin took some movie footage which showed the
> front step area of the TSBD at the time of the shooting, and he took some
> footage about twenty minutes after the shooting. His film which he took
> twenty minutes after the shooting ( see page 187 of TKOAP ) shows a balding man
> in a red plaid shirt.
> There is no doubt that this man is lovelady. ( THIS, Martin photo, and NOT the
> Altgens photo is the photo that Lovelady is talking about when he swears that
> the man in the picture is himself. )
>
> There is no doubt that the Martin photo shows Lovelady near the entrance to the
> TSBD…..AND …. he has his shirt buttoned to one button down from the collar
> button. The shirt is pulled forward in the manner of a fully buttoned shirt.
> True …this photo was taken twenty minutes after the shooting and he could have
> buttoned his shirt during the interim but even allowing for that possibility
> the shirt he's wearing in the Martin photo fits his body totally different that
> the shirt seen on the man in the Altgens photo.
>
> The shirt on the man in the Altgens photo appears to be unbuttoned at least
> half way down the shirt front. ( Oswald's rust colored shirt had no buttons
> above the halfway point so it would have been impossible for him to button his
> shirt above the halfway point.
> Furthermore the shirt on the man in the Altgens photo is NOT a pronounced plaid
> like Lovelady's shirt. While there will be those who continue to believe the
> man in the doorway is lovelady…..I believe the man is Lee Harvey Oswald.
>
> Walt
--
TimeLord
Room 101 Magazine
http://www.room101rat.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Watch out I have a 'sig' and I know how to use it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"ALL major legitimate scientific breakthroughs are announced by actors on TV."
-Penn Jillette
DAnde9348
>Date: Fri, 10 December 1999 04:49 PM EST
>Message-id: <82rsbg$ak2$1...@ins20.netins.net>
>How pronounced was the plaid on the shirt of LHO on November 22, 1963? The
>shirt his is wearing in the photos following his arrest is in fact not plaid
at all.
The GREY shirt he was wearing at the time of his arrest was made exactly like
the BROWN shirt he was wearing at the TSBD that morning...... He apparently
bought two shirts of the same pattern ...one brown, and one grey.....
>Where can I find a copy of the Martin photo for comparison?
On the upper left side page 187 of TKOAP there is two frames of the Martin film
showing Lovelady in the red plaid shirt ...this film was taken about twenty
minutes after the shooting....
>
>And does the footage you mention that was taken at the time of the shooting
>show the figure you believe to be Oswald in the Altgens photo?
There is a pic on page 244 of POTP which was taken about a minute before the
shooting....He's not there yet. There is a pic on page 18 of TKOAP which
shows the Limo in front of the doorway of the TSBD.... he's not there yet.....
and there is a pic on page 373 of POTP which taken just seconds after the
previous pic and the man can be seen in the middle of the doorway.
( probably just emerged from the building ) Then there is the Altgens photo
which shows him at the west side of that doorway .
Walt
Dr. Ford
Also, there is some question about whether or not Oswald changed his shirt. His
testimony about this changes from one time to the other as it does on other items
that may link him to the shooting.
TimeLord
DAnde9348 wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD
> >From: "Dr. Ford" <timelord@*REMOVE*room101rat.com>
> >Date: Fri, 10 December 1999 04:49 PM EST
> >Message-id: <82rsbg$ak2$1...@ins20.netins.net>
> >
> >How pronounced was the plaid on the shirt of LHO on November 22, 1963? The
> >shirt his is wearing in the photos following his arrest is in fact not plaid
> at all.
>
> The BROWN shirt he was wearing at the TSBD on the morning of the assassination
> was NOT plaid it was almost identical to the GREY shirt he was wearing at the
> time of his arrest.... He apparently bought two shirts of the same pattern
> ...one BROWN and one GREY.
>
> >Where can I find a copy of the Martin photo for comparison?
>
> A couple of frames from the Martin film are displayed on the upper left hand of
> page 187 of TKOAP.
> >
> >And does the footage you mention that was taken at the time of the shooting
> >show the figure you believe to be Oswald in the Altgens photo?
> No the Martin film that shows the front doorway of the TSBD does not show
> "Oswald" there yet...... There is a pic on page 244 of POTP which was snapped
> by Weaver as the limo turned off from Main onto Houston ..."Oswald" is not yet
> in the doorway.......Then there is a pic on page 18 of TKOAP which was taken
> of the limo infront of the TSBD doorway...."Oswald" is not yet in the
> doorway..... Then there is the Wiegman film on page 373 of POTP which shows
> "Oswald" in the middle of the doorway and then the Altgen's pic which shows
> "Oswald" on the west side of the doorway leaning out with his shirt hanging
> loosly on his body.....
>
> Walt
>
> Or is that figure
> >no
> >longer on the steps?
> >
--
Dr. Ford
Putting aside the dispute about whether or not Oswald changed shirts, as it
seems that really does not matter in making my point. It was stated by Walt
that both shirts where made the same. Both having the same pattern. Again my
point is that the shirt worn by Oswald, as described by testimony, and
evidenced in photographs was not plaid. Whether he changed it or not it was
not plaid. The shirt worn by Lovelady was plaid. The figure in the doorway
is clearly wearing a plaid shirt.
That is my point.
TimeLord.
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> Here is a Martin frame and an extreme blowup from a Hughes frame.
>
> Martin
>
> --
> Martin Shackelford
>
> "You're going to find that many of the truths we
> cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
> -Obi-Wan Kenobi
>
> "You must unlearn what you have learned." --Yoda
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Image]
pamela mcelwain-brown
AnthonyMarsh wrote:
> Jfkcia wrote:
> >
> > >Oswald
> > >> >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one left who
> > >> >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It seems
> >
> > I am one of those people stupid enough to think that it is Oswald in the
> > Altgens's photo. He looks like Lee and is dressed like Lee and he is standing
>
> No, it looks like Lovelady and it is Lovelady.
to me, it looks like lovelady wearing lho's shirt.
pamela
>
>
> > in front of the building where Lee worked. If it looks like a duck and quacks
> > like a duck and moves like a duck, it's probably a duck. I'm very suspicious
> > that all the people surrounding Billy Lovelady- William Shelley, Wesley
> > Frazier, Sarah Stanton, Carolyn Arnold, are not in the Altgen's photo when they
> > should be. The area above Lee in the photo has been blackened out, no doubt on
>
> Who said that those people were standing shoulder to shoulder with
> Lovelady?
>
> > purpose, to hide the fact that Lovelady and group are standing there.
> > jfkcia.com
>
> What is blacked out? Nothing is blacked out on the original.
Martin Shackelford
which is quite detailed. We also have corroborating notes and reports by
others present for various interrogations. Did they all concoct the same
story?
Martin
Tony Pitman wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:52:11 GMT, Todd W. Vaughan
> <twvau...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <82mki2$s04$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Jerry <jer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >> In article <82m5ca$fvb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> >> Todd W. Vaughan <twvau...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> > In article <19991207152748...@ng-ce1.aol.com>,
> >> > Walt,
> >> >
> >> > Assume for a minute that you're correct, that Oswald is standing on
> >> the
> >> > steps.
> >> >
> >> > Then why did he claim he was eating his lunch in the TSBD lunchroom?
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Todd W. Vaughan
> >>
> >> Walt is immune to logical argument. You'll just make him cross as a
> >> baby ready to spitup if you implicitly demand that he think through to
> >> the logical consequences of his position.
> >>
> >> Better ask him about the bullet that drilled straight through JFK's
> >tie
> >> and transited the body, taking with it a piece of JFK's shirt -- which
> >> Walt sees in the Croft photo.
> >>
> >> Or let him explain that the Dillard photos PROVE that nobody was in
> >the
> >> SN window at the time of the assassination.
> >>
> >> And ask him about the bullet that struck the windowsill near the SN --
> >> Walt sees it's "contrail" in a Dillard photo and has verified the
> >> damage to the window via binocular viewing.
> >>
> >> Or ask him to explain how Oswald's undesireable discharge, signed
> >> by "Good Schiffer" was a secret message to him in the USSR praising
> >him
> >> for the good work he was doing as a spy.
> >>
> >> Jerry
> >>
> >> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> >> Before you buy.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Jerry,
> >
> >Did I tell you my theory about how I think Walt shot JFK?
> >
> >--
> >Todd W. Vaughan
>
> The fact is that none of us really know what LHO said during his
> interrogations about much of anything.
> All we have is a few brief notes Fritz left behind but LHO spent many
> hours with them so I'm sure he said a lot more than we have been told.
> We were also told by the technician who installed it that Fritz had a
> tape recording system in a nearbye closet with mics in that little
> office of his. And that they were installed prior to 11-22-63. Fritz
> apparently kept this very close to his chest.
> While I'm fairly sure that Jesse Curry was not involved in this I'm
> not so sure about Fritz. He could well have been one of H.L.Hunt's men
> in the DPD.
>
> Tony
DAnde9348
AnthonyMarsh
>
> >Oswald
> >> >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one left who
> >> >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It seems
>
> I am one of those people stupid enough to think that it is Oswald in the
> Altgens's photo. He looks like Lee and is dressed like Lee and he is standing
No, it looks like Lovelady and it is Lovelady.
> in front of the building where Lee worked. If it looks like a duck and quacks
Tony Pitman
Sam McClung
> AnthonyMarsh wrote:
>
> > Jfkcia wrote:
> > >
> > > >Oswald
> > > >> >seen in the Altgens photo in front of the TSBD. There is no one left who
> > > >> >is stupid enough to really believe that after all these years. It seems
> > >
> > > I am one of those people stupid enough to think that it is Oswald in the
> > > Altgens's photo. He looks like Lee and is dressed like Lee and he is standing
> >
> > No, it looks like Lovelady and it is Lovelady.
>
> to me, it looks like lovelady wearing lho's shirt.
> pamela
.
.
Who first had custody and developed the Altgens film?
Who had custody of the film and prints afterwards?
Sam
DAnde9348
>From: "Dr. Ford" <timelord@*REMOVE*room101rat.com>
>Message-id: <82scio$ev3$1...@ins23.netins.net>
>With all due respect, I will have to see for myself, but thanks for your help.
That's EXACTLY as it should be, .... everybody should check for themselves the
validity of information...
>Also, there is some question about whether or not Oswald changed his shirt.
Not really.... Look in Appendix XI of the Warren Report.... There is at least
three independent reports of the police confirming that Oswald said he changed
his shirt and there are police reports of that shirt being found in Oswald's
room just as he claimed...
>His testimony about this changes from one time to the other as it does on
other
>items that may link him to the shooting.
>
>TimeLord
>
Walt
Ms X
Debra Hartman
two people very close to Oswald have said it is him--including one who
commented that Oswald frequently wore his shirts open at the neck with
his t-shit "broken at the neck". (I don't even know what that means,
exactly, but this is from one of Oswald's marine corps buddies.) I
think it will always remain one of those lesser points on which
agreement cannot be reached.
As to the veracity of the DPD, the vast majority of the cops
(including Curry) seem to have been truthful about this case. Where
some have gotten into trouble is the point at which they try to
account for details they know nothing about. Some (but not all) of
this has to do with tremendous pressure from the FBI to withhold
details of Oswald's incarceration and interrogations *conducted by the
FBI*.
Most, if not all, of the posters to this group are unaware that, at
one point, Oswald was apparently questioned with at least one other
prisoner in the homicide office. I would venture to say that to this
day *no one* here knows when Oswald was first placed in a cell in the
city jail, and *no one* here is knowledgeable of the number and
composition of the police lineups in this case; anyone who claims to
be is deluded. Thus, the veracity of a small number of the DPD is
very much in doubt, but this lack of candor appears to stem mostly
from deliberate pressure by the FBI.
It is also impossible to take the word of the cops who investigated
the Tippit killing, or who were in attendance at the arrest of Oswald
Dallas police, for example, made a list of all the persons present in
the Texas Theater at the time of Oswald's arrest. That list has never
been made public. Who has it, the DPD or the FBI? Is there anyone
who would question the importance of such a list? Why has it not been
made public, and why was it not provided to the Warren Commission?
Quite recently, I noticed a post from someone debunking the witness
account that another man was removed from the theater through the
alley, and placed in a police car. The self-styled debunker failed to
note that there were at least *two* witnesses to this removal;
moreover, the police car which was located in the alley belonged to
the cop who reported that the theater arrest was made *in the
balcony*. All evidence that there *was* another arrest made at the
theater which has never come to light.
But my own award for the single most dishonest living cop has to go to
the man who led Oswald to his death. He has inserted himself in
all the major breakthroughs in this case, and always as a source of
misinformation. It was he who conducted the Tippit killing lineups,
and gave us Helen Markham.
Debra Hartman
wrote:
>to me, it looks like lovelady wearing lho's shirt.
>pamela
Wow, despite stiff competition, you're still batting a thousand for
newsgroup's dumbest posts. (Or is it a no-hitter you're pitching?)
You *keep* going, girl.
Deborah (I hate myself when I do things like this) Hartman
pamela mcelwain-brown
Debra Hartman wrote:
gee 'debra', i hate to live down to your expectations. however, i did
state this is my opinion, and that's what it is. the shirt is open at
the neck in the way lho wore his later that day, and the texture looks
the same. however, the hairline, and face, do tend to look like
lovelady.
pamela
Sam McClung
I still wonder if the chain of possession of the Altgens photos allowed for
manipulation of them.
Who knows, with Oswald's face on someone else in the backyard photos, that may be
someone else's face on Oswald's body in the Altgens photo.
Sam
pamela mcelwain-brown
Debra Hartman wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:43:17 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown <lame Pam>
> wrote:
>
> >to me, it looks like lovelady wearing lho's shirt.
> >pamela
>
> Wow, despite stiff competition, you're still batting a thousand for
> newsgroup's dumbest posts. (Or is it a no-hitter you're pitching?)
>
> You *keep* going, girl.
>
> Deborah (I hate myself when I do things like this) Hartman
and how do you spell your name 'debra', or is it now 'deborah'? btw,
what happened to izabel? are you giving her a break? interesting that
both of you have about the same number of posts archived on
dejanews...and on the same topics as well...
pamela
pamela mcelwain-brown
Sam McClung wrote:
sam,
this is altgen's recollection from POTP, p.318:
< q on> altgens remembers that while the bulletin was being readied, 'someone grabbed
my camera, removed the film and took it in to process it, because they wanted me on
the telephone reporting what i saw. we did an extraordinary good job, because within
20 minutes of the assassination we had a picture rolling on the wire -- and that's
good...one or more of the pictures i had taken were on page one of many of the world
newspapers<q off>
this account substantiates the fact that altgen's photos were uploaded too
quickly to have been altered...
btw, i did not intend to be misleading about my statement that it looked like
lho's shirt on lovelady's face -- it is a personal observation, without any reason
for it, other than that the shirt and t-shirt seem to closely resemble what lho was
wearing later that day...i also tend to agree that if he had been on the steps, he
would have said so, and others would have corroborated it...
pamela
Dr. Science
You people are completely missing it. Billy "The Manchurian Candidate" Lovelady
WAS the other Oswald. Earlier, Lovelady helped plant Oswald's MC and empty
shells on the sixth floor of the TSBD with the help of the right wing Dallas
County School Board. At the time of the Altgens photo he fired particle beams
out of his eyes that penetrated JFK and Connally. This could be proven by
veiwing the Altgens photo under ultra-violent light until it was tampered with
by the agents of Mother Teresa's leftist Sisters of the Poor. Lovelady fled the
scene with Tippet's help and killed Tippet because he knew too much. Lovelady
planted shells from Oswalds gun at the scene of Tippet's murder. He then
returned to the TSBD as if nothing happened.
Get with the program folks.
In article <3853CA68...@flash.net>, Sam says...
Sam McClung
> Sam McClung wrote:
>
> > Pam,
> >
> > I still wonder if the chain of possession of the Altgens photos allowed for
> > manipulation of them.
> >
> > Who knows, with Oswald's face on someone else in the backyard photos, that may be
> > someone else's face on Oswald's body in the Altgens photo.
> >
> > Sam
>
> sam,
> this is altgen's recollection from POTP, p.318:
> < q on> altgens remembers that while the bulletin was being readied, 'someone grabbed
> my camera, removed the film and took it in to process it, because they wanted me on
> the telephone reporting what i saw. we did an extraordinary good job, because within
> 20 minutes of the assassination we had a picture rolling on the wire -- and that's
> good...one or more of the pictures i had taken were on page one of many of the world
> newspapers<q off>
> this account substantiates the fact that altgen's photos were uploaded too
> quickly to have been altered...
> btw, i did not intend to be misleading about my statement that it looked like
> lho's shirt on lovelady's face -- it is a personal observation, without any reason
> for it, other than that the shirt and t-shirt seem to closely resemble what lho was
> wearing later that day...i also tend to agree that if he had been on the steps, he
> would have said so, and others would have corroborated it...
>
> pamela
.
.
It looks like Lovelady on the steps to me.
Keeping Lee inside the TSBD while the shooting was going on
was undoubtedly one thing the conspirators needed.
I believe he was kept away from any window on any floor that
would have allowed him to see behind the fence on the knoll,
also by the conspirators.
I also believe he was kept away from the 6th floor during the
assassination so he wouldn't see the team there.
Additionally, I believe he was kept from any window that would
have allowed him to see into the 2nd floor DalTex window by the
fire escape.
These simple rules of isolation indicate to me that the conspirators
would want Lee on the 1st floor or basement while the shooting was
going on under that scenario.
I am informed Lee said he ate lunch on the 1st floor, noticed the 2
guys playing dominoes, then went to the 2nd floor [amazingly
immediately after the shooting stopped] and returned to the 1st floor.
It seems Lee's only crime was being born poor.
Sam
JWOODSE...@webtv.net
Mr. Wallace-
Per your request, I access your website but I was unable to locate the
photograph or text regarding Lovelady in the doorway.
I have a number of stills taken from the Couch and Weigman film footage.
I examine these stills taken at the point of interest showing Lovelady
standing in the doorway.
The late Richard Sprague writes about this in a number of private
letters to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald and researchers back in the late
1960's (I believe a few letters are around 1967). These letters are in
the Richard Sprague Collection at Georgetown University.
A series of re-actment photographs taken by CBS showing Lovelady from
Altgens
postion is interesting. This photograph was to be use in the CBS
Special from the 1960's.
Gary point out a number of good points about Lovelady co-workers
standing next to him during the assassination.
I hope this helps.
Sincerely yours,
John R. Woods
"I speak truth, not so much as I would,
but as much as I dare; and I dare a little the more as I grow older."
{Montaigne}
DAnde9348
>Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 09:54 AM EST
>Message-id: <3853B724...@primenet.com>
> however, the hairline, and face, do tend to look like
>lovelady.
>
>pamela
Hello Pam..... what pic are you looking at..
The pic on page 186 of Grodens book does look a lot like Lovelady .... BUT
keep in mind that Groden is well known for "enhancing" photos.....
There are other copies of the Altgens photo which show the man looks more like
Oswald...... Damn the people "enhancing" photos.....
Walt
charles wallace
I'm sorry I misled you inadvertently. I used a thread that was unrelated
to my request of you and additionally made a comment about a potential
Lovelady photo. I was just simply asking what your opinion was of the
photo that is on page 2 of my webpages. I claim that it is the face of
the person who shot John F. Kennedy from the SN. Thanks for your
response.
Regards,
Charles
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/JFKAssassination
" If you don't see it, so be it." CCW 6/16/99
pamela mcelwain-brown
DAnde9348 wrote:
walt,
i've looked at a number of versions, including POTP; the one i'm most familiar
with is the one at http://www.jfk100x.com which, though the quality is not great i
consider fresh as it is from the front page of an ohio newspaper. i agree with you,
though, that it's important to consider to source of the photo as to whether it may
have been 'enhanced'....
pamela
Martin Shackelford
The Altgens photo was among the first published. That didn't leave much time
for manipulation. Many copies were made from the original negative in the years that
followed.
Martin
Sam McClung wrote:
> Pam,
>
> I still wonder if the chain of possession of the Altgens photos allowed for
> manipulation of them.
>
> Who knows, with Oswald's face on someone else in the backyard photos, that may be
> someone else's face on Oswald's body in the Altgens photo.
>
> Sam
--
Martin Shackelford
Martin
DAnde9348 wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD
> >From: pamela mcelwain-brown <pam...@primenet.com>
> >Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 09:54 AM EST
> >Message-id: <3853B724...@primenet.com>
>
> > however, the hairline, and face, do tend to look like
> >lovelady.
> >
> >pamela
>
> Hello Pam..... what pic are you looking at..
>
> The pic on page 186 of Grodens book does look a lot like Lovelady .... BUT
> keep in mind that Groden is well known for "enhancing" photos.....
>
> There are other copies of the Altgens photo which show the man looks more like
> Oswald...... Damn the people "enhancing" photos.....
>
> Walt
--
Sam McClung
Sam
Martin Shackelford wrote:
> Sam:
>
> The Altgens photo was among the first published. That didn't leave much time
> for manipulation. Many copies were made from the original negative in the years that
> followed.
>
> Martin
>
> Sam McClung wrote:
>
> > Pam,
> >
> > I still wonder if the chain of possession of the Altgens photos allowed for
> > manipulation of them.
> >
> > Who knows, with Oswald's face on someone else in the backyard photos, that may be
> > someone else's face on Oswald's body in the Altgens photo.
> >
> > Sam
>
Debra Hartman
<pam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
>
>Debra Hartman wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:43:17 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown <lame Pam>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >to me, it looks like lovelady wearing lho's shirt.
>> >pamela
>>
>> Wow, despite stiff competition, you're still batting a thousand for
>> newsgroup's dumbest posts. (Or is it a no-hitter you're pitching?)
>>
>> You *keep* going, girl.
>>
>> Deborah (I hate myself when I do things like this) Hartman
>
>and how do you spell your name 'debra', or is it now 'deborah'?
You'll just have to guess, hyphenatta.
>tw,
>what happened to izabel?
Please learn to spell.
>are you giving her a break?
*Nobody* tells Isabell what to do, hon.
>interesting that
>both of you have about the same number of posts archived
Yeah, we divided them up, added two, multiplied by four......
>n
>dejanews...and on the same topics as well...
Strange isn't it, how the same sorts of people stick together?
Lessee,
There's Barbed and Bud
And there's Burr and McAdams
And there's you and Barbed
And there's Barbed and McAdams
And there's Barbed and Russ
And there's Bud and McAdams
And there's Bud and Burr
And there's "Jer" and Russo
And there's "Jer" and Barbed
And there's "Jer" and McAdams
And there's "Jer" and Lipton
And there's Perry and Mack
And there's Howie and McAdams
And there's Howie and Russ
And there's Howie and Barbed
And there's Howie and Bud
And there's Dreitzes and anybody whose boots he can lick or whose
writing assignments he can fulfill with links to McA...@disinfo.com
AND THEY ALL JUST GIVE EACH OTHER AWARDS.
*THEN* there's me and Isabell....Sometimes.
I also like Robert Harris, Lurker, Keith Bruner, Tony Pitman, and all
the other guys with a sense of humor and obvious IQ points above 100.
And if you're referring to Mary La Fontaine, I've heard Mary talks
only to Ray, and Ray talks only to God, though it's possible they put
out that rumor themselves so no one would try to call them. Once in a
while, I've gotten a call through.
So, hypenatta, if I were you, I'd take a vacation. You're starting to
sound a little paranoid, and tha perpondrance o' tha evadence is
against ya. Sorry.
>
>pamela
>
>
pamela mcelwain-brown
Debra,(Deborah, Isabel, Mary)Hartman wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 1999 11:11:31 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown
> <pam...@primenet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >Debradeborahisabelmary Hartman wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:43:17 -0600, pamela mcelwain-brown
> <pam...@primenet.com>
> ><old yawn snip>
> >>
> >> Deborah (I hate myself when I do things like this) Hartman
> >
> >and how do you spell your name 'debra', or is it now 'deborah'?
>
> You'll just have to guess, hyphenatta.
that sounds reminiscent of lho when presented with two sets of id, doesn't
it? what an amateur response that is.
> >what happened to izabel?
>
> Please learn to spell.
after you, madam . interesting you correct the spelling of isabel and get
tripped up with debra, deborah.
>
> >are you giving her a break?
>
> *Nobody* tells Isabell what to do, hon.
and who should know better than you, it seems
> >interesting that
> >both of you have about the same number of posts archived
>
> Yeah, we divided them up, added two, multiplied by four......
>
> >n
> >dejanews...and on the same topics as well...
>
> Strange isn't it, how the same sorts of people stick together?
'debra' has about 240, 'isabel' has about 175, both on the same
elrod-centric topics. hmmm, what can that mean?
>
>
> Lessee,
>
> There's Barbed and Bud
>
> And there's Burr and McAdams
>
> And there's you and Barbed
well, if you can't get along with barb, maybe that's your problem...
<yawn snip>
> AND THEY ALL JUST GIVE EACH OTHER AWARDS.
so that's it? all this vicious posturing because you feel LEFT OUT?
> *THEN* there's me and Isabell....Sometimes.
>
> I also like Robert Harris, Lurker, Keith Bruner, Tony Pitman, and all
> the other guys with a sense of humor and obvious IQ points above 100.
if you have an iq greater than the clothes in your closet why not use it to
increase information rather than to try to protect an untenable position?
and why do you bite at every troll?
>
> And if you're referring to Mary La Fontaine, I've heard Mary talks
> only to Ray, and Ray talks only to God, though it's possible they put
> out that rumor themselves so no one would try to call them. Once in a
> while, I've gotten a call through.
yes, i'm sure your calls do get through
> So, hypenatta, if I were you, I'd take a vacation. You're starting to
> sound a little paranoid, and tha perpondrance o' tha evadence is
> against ya. Sorry.
unfortunately, debradeborahizzymary, maybe you should check out a place to
rest yourself, until you can get your aliases straight, and understand that
'evadence' is not just what you decide it will be at any given moment.
pamela
>
>
> >
> >pamela
> >
> >
DAnde9348
>From: pamela mcelwain-brown <pam...@primenet.com>
>Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 12:55 PM EST
>Message-id: <3853E18B...@primenet.com>
> this account substantiates the fact that altgen's photos were uploaded too
>quickly to have been altered...
Hello Pam.... This account is erroneous....
Your error is made by many researchers who believe Altgen's #5 was immediately
made available to the public.
The Altgens photo that was on the front page of many papers around the world
was the shot of Clint Hill climbing onto the back of the Lincoln..... His #5
remained unknown to the public until Feb of 1964
Plenty of time to "enhance" a photo....
Walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 11:33 PM EST
>Message-id: <3854770E...@concentric.net>
>
>
> The Altgens photo was among the first published. That didn't leave much
>time
>for manipulation. Many copies were made from the original negative in the
>years that
>followed.
>
>Martin
Martin the "Altgens photo" that was published immediately was the shot of Clint
hill climbing onto the trunk of the Limo as it is headed for the RR
underpass....
Algen's # 5 was NOT printed for several months...... as I recall a woman in
Florida saw the Altgens # 5 in LIFE and noticed that Oswald was standing in the
doorway....
Walt
Walt
pamela mcelwain-brown
DAnde9348 wrote:
walt,
i appreciate your input; however, it is not entirely correct. first, i was
quoting what altgens said in POTP; that, as you suggest, is open to question,
surely. however, the version of the altgens 1-6 (not 5) which is available at
http://www.jfk100x.com, was published saturday, november 23, in the plain dealer,
from cleveland ohio. so, for that reason, i do believe it was uploaded without
alteration (optimist that i am)...
pamela
DAnde9348
>From: pamela mcelwain-brown <pam...@primenet.com>
>Message-id: <385538AC...@primenet.com>
>
>
>walt,
> i appreciate your input; however, it is not entirely correct. first, i
>was
>quoting what altgens said in POTP; that, as you suggest, is open to question,
>surely. however, the version of the altgens 1-6 (not 5) which is available
>at
>http://www.jfk100x.com, was published saturday, november 23, in the plain
>dealer,
>from cleveland ohio. so, for that reason, i do believe it was uploaded
>without
>alteration (optimist that i am)...
>
>pamela
>
>
Hello Pam...
Are you certain that Altgens photo was published in the Cleveland paper on Nov
23??
It seems a bit odd that only one newspaper would publish that picture......
You may be right .... and if you've verified that it is a fact I'll take your
word for it....
I've been trying to find the date when it was first published in a national
publication.....
I Think Oswald's mother saw it in Feb of 1964 and I know she thought the man in
the photo was her son.......
To be perfectly candid with you...I think it was Oswald....If you've been
reading the thread then you know I don't base that so much on the facial
features or hairline . I base my conviction on the WAY that shirt FITS the
guy.....
Lovelady's shirt was snug and it appers to be buttoned in the martin film which
was taken shortly after the shooting....The shirt hangs loosley on the guy in
the photo....
Walt
pamela mcelwain-brown
DAnde9348 wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD, altgens
> >From: pamela mcelwain-brown <pam...@primenet.com>
> >Date: Mon, 13 December 1999 01:19 PM EST
> >Message-id: <385538AC...@primenet.com>
> >
> >
>
> >walt,
> > i appreciate your input; however, it is not entirely correct. first, i
> >was
> >quoting what altgens said in POTP; that, as you suggest, is open to question,
> >surely. however, the version of the altgens 1-6 (not 5) which is available
> >at
> >http://www.jfk100x.com, was published saturday, november 23, in the plain
> >dealer,
> >from cleveland ohio. so, for that reason, i do believe it was uploaded
> >without
> >alteration (optimist that i am)...
> >
> >pamela
> >
> >
>
> Hello Pam...
>
> Are you certain that Altgens photo was published in the Cleveland paper on Nov
> 23??
>
> It seems a bit odd that only one newspaper would publish that picture......
walt,
it wasn't just one paper; that's why you need to question that information. i
haven't gone through all the papers here, but have also found it in the rochester,
ny democrat-chronicle monday, sept 28, and the chicago tribune sat, nov 23. will
check further later...
> You may be right .... and if you've verified that it is a fact I'll take your
> word for it...
let's get information instead...
> I've been trying to find the date when it was first published in a national
> publication.....
>
> I Think Oswald's mother saw it in Feb of 1964 and I know she thought the man in
> the photo was her son.......
>
> To be perfectly candid with you...I think it was Oswald....If you've been
> reading the thread then you know I don't base that so much on the facial
> features or hairline . I base my conviction on the WAY that shirt FITS the
> guy.....
>
> Lovelady's shirt was snug and it appers to be buttoned in the martin film which
> was taken shortly after the shooting....The shirt hangs loosley on the guy in
> the photo....
i know, the shirt's what has been intriguing to me too...
pamela
>
>
> Walt
Sam McClung
.
.
Well Heavens to Murgatroid, exit stage left!
I'm confused now. <g>
Sam
Tony Pitman
>><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD
>>From: "Dr. Ford" <timelord@*REMOVE*room101rat.com>
>>Date: Fri, 10 December 1999 04:49 PM EST
>>Message-id: <82rsbg$ak2$1...@ins20.netins.net>
>
>>How pronounced was the plaid on the shirt of LHO on November 22, 1963? The
>>shirt his is wearing in the photos following his arrest is in fact not plaid
>at all.
>
>The GREY shirt he was wearing at the time of his arrest was made exactly like
>the BROWN shirt he was wearing at the TSBD that morning...... He apparently
>bought two shirts of the same pattern ...one brown, and one grey.....
>
>>Where can I find a copy of the Martin photo for comparison?
>
>On the upper left side page 187 of TKOAP there is two frames of the Martin film
>showing Lovelady in the red plaid shirt ...this film was taken about twenty
>minutes after the shooting....
>>
>>And does the footage you mention that was taken at the time of the shooting
>>show the figure you believe to be Oswald in the Altgens photo?
>
>There is a pic on page 244 of POTP which was taken about a minute before the
>shooting....He's not there yet. There is a pic on page 18 of TKOAP which
>shows the Limo in front of the doorway of the TSBD.... he's not there yet.....
>and there is a pic on page 373 of POTP which taken just seconds after the
>previous pic and the man can be seen in the middle of the doorway.
>( probably just emerged from the building ) Then there is the Altgens photo
>which shows him at the west side of that doorway .
>
>
>Walt
That is interesting.
So this guy was on the move and would appear to have come from inside
the building.
That does not fit what Lovelady says of his movements at all.
One witness said that he saw Lovelady sitting on the bottom step
outside before the limmo arrived but you would not expect him to be
still seated as the limmo came by as shown on P 18 of TKOAP where his
place in the doorway is still vacant as the limmo passes.
Tony
Martin Shackelford
It's not you who is confused, Sam, it's Walt, when he says that
"Altgens #5 was NOT printed for several months."
The photo went out over the AP wires the weekend of the
assassination.
After it's publication, the station manager of WFAA-TV in Dallas noted
that the man in the doorway resembled Oswald, and contacted the FBI on
Monday, November 25. Someone at the Associated Press office in
Philadelphia also reported the resemblance to the FBI around the same
time. The FBI interviewed Depository employees on November 25 in an
attempt to determine the man's identity. Roy Truly identified the man
that day as Billy Lovelady. Asked if he appeared in the picture,
Lovelady immediately pointed himself out in the doorway. Later, Bill
Shelley, who had stood near Lovelady, also identified him in the photo.
Walt seems to be focusing on the January 1964 letter to the
Secret Service from a woman in Jacksonville, Florida, who pointed out
the same thing.
Richard Trask obtained a contact print made from the original
negative, and published it in Pictures of the Pain, p. 312. He prints
the photo full-page on p. 314, and a blowup of the doorway area on p.
320. It shows a large-pattern shirt, and the face of Billy Lovelady. It
helps to work from original materials.
The two-page copy in Robert Groden, The Killing of a President,
though less clear, distinctly shows the large pattern on the shirt (for
those who don't trust Groden, find an identical photo on p. 202 of
Whitewash, the 1965 book by Harold Weisberg). A blowup from a clearer
copy appears on p. 186, along with a color photo of Oswald's shirt,
which in no way resembles the shirt in the Altgens photo. Color and
black and white John Martin film frames appear on p. 187, along with two
color photos of Lovelady in the shirt he wore that day.
A clear full-page copy can also be found on p. 64 of Trask's
That Day in Dallas. A blowup appears on p. 72 showing the doorway area.
A 1964 photo of Lovelady can be found on p. 73, along with Bob Jackson's
1971 photo of Lovelady wearing the shirt.
The distinctive semicircular feature in the front of Lovelady's
hair can be seen both in the 1964 photo, and the Altgens photo, as well
as in frontal views from the Martin film. In contrast, Oswald's hair was
fuller in the center than on the sides.
Walt is 100% wrong on this issue, whether or not he ever
admits it.
Martin
Martin Shackelford
assassination, and the FBI was already getting calls about it on November 25--see
my other post in this thread.
Martin
DAnde9348 wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD, altgens
> >From: pamela mcelwain-brown <pam...@primenet.com>
> >Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 12:55 PM EST
> >Message-id: <3853E18B...@primenet.com>
>
> > this account substantiates the fact that altgen's photos were uploaded too
> >quickly to have been altered...
>
> Hello Pam.... This account is erroneous....
> Your error is made by many researchers who believe Altgen's #5 was immediately
> made available to the public.
> The Altgens photo that was on the front page of many papers around the world
> was the shot of Clint Hill climbing onto the back of the Lincoln..... His #5
> remained unknown to the public until Feb of 1964
>
> Plenty of time to "enhance" a photo....
>
> Walt
--
Jerry
dand...@aol.com (DAnde9348) wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD
> >From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
> >Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 11:33 PM EST
> >Message-id: <3854770E...@concentric.net>
> >
> >
>
> > The Altgens photo was among the first published. That didn't
leave much
> >time
> >for manipulation. Many copies were made from the original negative
in the
> >years that
> >followed.
> >
> >Martin
>
shot of Clint
> hill climbing onto the trunk of the Limo as it is headed for the RR
> underpass....
>
> Algen's # 5 was NOT printed for several months...... as I recall a
woman in
> Florida saw the Altgens # 5 in LIFE and noticed that Oswald was
standing in the
> doorway....
Walt -
Either you are a shameless LIAR or you are hopelessly IGNORANT!
Which is it, Walt?
Jerry
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Todd W. Vaughan
Jerry,
Could it be both???
Todd
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.
>
--
Todd W. Vaughan
DAnde9348
>From: pamela mcelwain-brown <pam...@primenet.com>
>Message-id: <38554D13...@primenet.com>
>walt,
> it wasn't just one paper; that's why you need to question that
>information. i
>haven't gone through all the papers here, but have also found it in the
>rochester,
>ny democrat-chronicle monday, sept 28, and the chicago tribune sat, nov 23.
>will
>check further later...
SEPT 23??...... Nov 23?? What year??
walt
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 14 December 1999 12:53 AM EST
>Message-id: <3855DB14...@concentric.net>
> Walt. the photo was published the weekend of the
>assassination, and the FBI was already getting calls about it on November
>25--see
>my other post in this thread.
>
>Martin
Hey Martin.. I read your other posts....
I guess it's too much trouble for you to verify where and when Altgens # 6 was
FIRST printed.....
Since I know you are prone to posting inaccurate and misleading info ......
I'll wait for Pam to confirm that Altgen's #6 was printed immediately after the
assassination.....
Walt
pamela mcelwain-brown
DAnde9348 wrote:
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD, altgens
> >From: pamela mcelwain-brown <pam...@primenet.com>
> >Date: Mon, 13 December 1999 02:46 PM EST
> >Message-id: <38554D13...@primenet.com>
>
> >walt,
> > it wasn't just one paper; that's why you need to question that
> >information. i
> >haven't gone through all the papers here, but have also found it in the
> >rochester,
> >ny democrat-chronicle monday, sept 28, and the chicago tribune sat, nov 23.
> >will
> >check further later...
>
> SEPT 23??...... Nov 23?? What year??
sorry, NOV 28 and NOV 23, 1963...plus the st louis globe-democrat nov 23-24 1963
(uploaded under its own heading).
pamela
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 14 December 1999 12:52 AM EST
>Message-id: <3855DAD2...@concentric.net>
> It's not you who is confused, Sam, it's Walt, when he says that
Yer right Martin I typed the wrong number I should have typed Altgens # 6....
I hope that didn't create too much confusion.
And I also plead guilty to being unsure about when Altgens #6 was FIRST
published.
>A blowup from a clearer
>copy appears on p. 186, (TKOAP) along with a color photo of Oswald's shirt,
>which in no way resembles the shirt in the Altgens photo.
Oswald's shirt ( pp 186) doesn't resemble the shirt of the guy in the
doorway....You're kidding.... the shirt on page 186 bears a strong resemblance
to the shirt of the man in the doorway.
Color and black and white John Martin film frames appear on p. 187, in the
upper left hand corner.
These pics were taken about twenty minutes after the shooting.
The pic on the upper right hand corner was taken in 1971 and the other one
showing Lovelady with a mustache was taken in 1976...for the HSCA
The fact that the shirt was a subject of controversy over all those years
points out that many people were not convinced that the guy in the doorway was
Lovelady.
along with two
>color photos of Lovelady in the shirt he wore that day
> A clear full-page copy can also be found on p. 64 of Trask's
>That Day in Dallas. A blowup appears on p. 72 showing the doorway area.
>A 1964 photo of Lovelady can be found on p. 73, along with Bob Jackson's
>1971 photo of Lovelady wearing the shirt.
> The distinctive semicircular feature in the front of Lovelady's
>hair can be seen both in the 1964 photo, and the Altgens photo, as well
>as in frontal views from the Martin film. In contrast, Oswald's hair was
>fuller in the center than on the sides.
The way the shirt FITS..... is totally different than the way Lovelady's shirt
fit him.
> Walt is 100% wrong on this issue, whether or not he ever admits it.
>
What Martin means Is: In HIS OPINION I'm wrong......
No LNer would ever admit that the guy is Oswald..... because it's obvious that
if oswald is standing on the steps and he's not firing a mannlicher Carcano
then he definitely could NOT have been guilty.
Walt
>Martin
>
DAnde9348
>Date: Tue, 14 December 1999 11:30 AM EST
>Message-id: <835rbk$9jj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>
>
>In article <835h6i$1kh$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Jerry <jer...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> In article <19991213111824...@ng-cn1.aol.com>,
>> dand...@aol.com (DAnde9348) wrote:
>> > >From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
Hey Todd..... I don't claim to be infallible, and I may be ignorant about some
aspects of the assassination.... but I will not lie about this case.... I
have stated many times that lying is stupid and self defeating..... My primary
interest is to find the truth.....regardless where the facts lead me.
If I were to make up a lie that convinced most people that Oswald was
innocent. and history was rewritten by that lie, I would only have succeeded in
creating a bigger mess ..... Therefore, I sincerely believe that a true truth
seeker must be very careful NOT to create a lie nor should they perpetuate any
information that they think may not be the truth...
I'm 100% certain that the Warren commission's finding that Oswald fired from
the SN window is a gargantuan lie, so that eliminates a lot of doubt that
others have to struggle with....
Walt
Gary Mack
were fed to Associated Press subscribers at 1:03pm CST. The full story is
in Trask's Pictures of the Pain and the specific feed time is on page 318.
I knew Altgens and he confirmed the time. He also donated his camera to The
Sixth Floor Museum. There are original 11/22/63 wire copy photos with the
time signature in the caption.
Gary Mack
DAnde9348 <dand...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991213111824...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
> ><HTML><PRE>Subject: Re: LHO ON THE STEPS OF THE TSBD
> >From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
> >Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 11:33 PM EST
> >Message-id: <3854770E...@concentric.net>
> >
> >
>
> > The Altgens photo was among the first published. That didn't leave
much
> >time
> >for manipulation. Many copies were made from the original negative in the
> >years that
> >followed.
> >
> >Martin
>
> Martin the "Altgens photo" that was published immediately was the shot of
Clint
> hill climbing onto the trunk of the Limo as it is headed for the RR
> underpass....
>
> Algen's # 5 was NOT printed for several months...... as I recall a woman
in
> Florida saw the Altgens # 5 in LIFE and noticed that Oswald was standing
in the
> doorway....
>
> Walt
>
> Walt
JCCarbo3
>were fed to Associated Press subscribers at 1:03pm CST. The full story is
>in Trask's Pictures of the Pain and the specific feed time is on page 318.
>I knew Altgens and he confirmed the time. He also donated his camera to The
>Sixth Floor Museum. There are original 11/22/63 wire copy photos with the
>time signature in the caption.
>
>Gary Mack
>
>DAnde9348 <dand...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:19991213111824...@ng-cn1.aol.com...
>> >From: Martin Shackelford <msh...@concentric.net>
>> >Date: Sun, 12 December 1999 11:33 PM EST
>> >Message-id: <3854770E...@concentric.net>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > The Altgens photo was among the first published. That didn't leave
>much
>> >time
>> >for manipulation. Many copies were made from the original negative in the
>> >years that
>> >followed.
>> >
>> >Martin
>>
>> Martin the "Altgens photo" that was published immediately was the shot of
>Clint
>> hill climbing onto the trunk of the Limo as it is headed for the RR
>> underpass....
>>
>> Algen's # 5 was NOT printed for several months...... as I recall a woman
>in
>> Florida saw the Altgens # 5 in LIFE and noticed that Oswald was standing
>in the
>> doorway....
>>
>> Walt
>>
>> Walt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Sorry, Walt, your info is incorrect. All three Altgens Dealey Plaza photos
>were fed to Associated Press subscribers at 1:03pm CST. The full story is
>in Trask's Pictures of the Pain and the specific feed time is on page 318.
>I knew Altgens and he confirmed the time.
Gary: This must also be some of the "disinformation" Walt contends you
spread. :>). Again, while I disagree with your conclusions of the
assassination, I recognize that your knowledge of the basic facts is superior
to 99.99% on this board, including Walt.
Thanks for the info.
Dr. Ford
From my perspective, it is not about what I feel, think, or believe, but
what the evidence shows. All the evidence provided by the other posters
and myself when looked at as a whole points to the conclusion that it
could not have been LHO on the steps. We have been presented with two
scenarios concerning the shirt LHO wore on that day, in both scenarios the
shirt was not plaid and it was not red. In the extreme blow ups provided
by others, and in the extreme blow ups of the Altgens photo that I have,
the person in the doorway is clearly wearing a plaid shirt, not the small
patterned gray, or brown shirts that LHO was wearing according to either
scenario.
We also have to account for the fact that LHO did in fact leave latent
fingerprints on the rifle, a fact that you seldom here discussed, and that
he left a palm print on the so called riffle rest made of boxes in the
"snipers nest" which was discovered on the day of the assassination.
These two clues do tend to point to the LHO having been at the sixth floor
window. While they do not prove he actually fired a shot from there, it
does tend to establish his presence there.
My contention is this, if there is a conspiracy, you do not have to
eliminate LHO as the shooter for it to come together. A lot is made of
his shooting ability. It should be considered though that this is not a
feat LHO was said to be able to repeat at any time he wanted to. In fact,
Oswald's shooting was inconsistent in the Marines, he would do rather well
at times, and then rather poorly at other times. But there is only one
assassination of JFK, and he need only gotten those shots of on one
occasion to have been the assassin. He need not have been an expert
marksman to do this task one time. I would probably have to be an expert
to be able to repeat it consistently but that is not a requirement for
this case nor has anyone alleged that he could have done so.
Dr. Ford.
Debra Hartman wrote:
> Personally I do not believe the man on the steps is Oswald. However,
> two people very close to Oswald have said it is him--including one who
> commented that Oswald frequently wore his shirts open at the neck with
> his t-shit "broken at the neck". (I don't even know what that means,
> exactly, but this is from one of Oswald's marine corps buddies.) I
> think it will always remain one of those lesser points on which
> agreement cannot be reached.