Jean
charles wallace
You asked John if he believed it was Oswald or Lovelady in the TSBD
doorway in the Altgens photograph. My answer if the question had been
directed to me would be yes, it is Lovelady in the doorway in the
Altgens photograph. But that photograph was taken at the same instant
that it is claimed that Wiegman films a man in the middle of the doorway
that I believe is OSWALD! If you look at Altgens photo it shows the SS
car behind the Vice President's car on Elm but Wiegman shows Earl
Cabell, the Dallas Mayor's car where the SS car is. Altgens has been
fixed at Z255. Wiegman has been fixed by the JFK limo starting to go
through the underpass at 10 seconds into the film. The observed Wiegman
film does not match what Wiegman says he did in turning on his camera.
Mrs. Cabell said their car stopped before the last shot at the
intersection of Elm and Houston. It has been claimed that the Mayor's
car did not stop and Wiegman shows it moving continuously on Elm.
Has evidence been manipulated? I believe CE 399 is legitimate. I
believe it was from Oswald's rifle and was found on the little boy's
stretcher next to Connally's at Parkland Hospital. But if John is right
and the bullet was switched then I believe frames of Wiegman have been
edited and possibly the Couch film as well.
We all know that the FBI destroyed Oswald's note to them. Where did
they stop in manipulating evidence?
A quick view of where I am in this case so you will know where I'm
coming from is that I believe that the evidence shows that two racists
killed JFK and framed Oswald who knew nothing of the plot until shots
were fired.
So I can not believe all this manipulation of evidence by the FBI, CIA,
and etc. is to protect the public from learning that two racists killed
JFK. Now I can believe that Oswald was a CIA agent and that the
authorities believed he and other agents killed JFK. If so then they
would want to keep secrets and operations from being revealed. And I
can believe that some in government told others that Oswald was part of
a communist plot and unless they didn't go along in keeping it secret
there would be WWIII and millions of Americans would die. I believe
lies have been placed on the top of ignorance in this case.
I know you believe Oswald alone did it all but there is evidence that he
did not do it and that is not ever going away.
Do you know how to explain the Wiegman film and Altgens photo recording
the same instant of time but yet cars are in significantly different
places?
Regards, Charles
Case Wide Open: A JFK Murder Investigation
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/CaseWideOpenAJFK
charles wallace
Re: Now let's examine the early timeline of CE 399
Jean,
You wrote: "I'm not sure they do show the same instant of time, Charles"
Thanks for keeping your mind open. I have not heard or I do not remember
hearing about this comment of Oswald's to a reporter. But I can believe
he said that he was inside when JFK passed by and that would be truthful
imo. Seconds are critical between when the Altgens photograph was taken
and when the opening frames of the Wiegman film were taken. I contend
that immediately after Altgens was taken Lovelady and Bill Shelley left
the doorway to go to the traffic island because that's where they were
when they saw DPD Baker and Truly enter the TSBD. IMO Oswald came
outside into the middle of the TSBD doorway at the same time that
Shelley and Lovelady left. DPD Fritz had in his notes "out with Bill
Shelley in front" This was next to notes about the first floor lunchroom
and getting a coke at the second floor lunchroom. IMO these three notes
are Oswald saying where he was right before the shots, during the shots,
and after the shots. Fritz never explained at any time what the note
"out with Bill Shelley in front" was in reference to but in his WC
testimony he inadvertently (imo) said Oswald told him he saw the
excitement.
What is your opinion about Oswald saying he saw Jarman and Norman going
through the room (to the west elevator at about 12:23pm)? Was he just a
good guesser?
Jean Davison
"charles wallace" <ccwa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:19411-43B...@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net...
> Jean,
> You wrote: "I'm not sure they do show the same instant of time, Charles"
>
> Thanks for keeping your mind open. I have not heard or I do not
> remember hearing about this comment of Oswald's to a reporter. But I
> can believe he said that he was inside when JFK passed by and that would
> be truthful imo.
Here is the quote, Charles, from McAdams' site:
QUOTE:
>>>
Reporter: Did you shoot the President?
Oswald: I work in that building.
Reporter: Were you in that building at the time?
Oswald: Naturally if I work in that building, yes sir.
(Source: Video "The Men Who Killed Kennedy," Reel 4, "The Patsy")
>>>>
UNQUOTE
Of course, most of the people who worked in that building was
not inside "at the time." They were outside watching the motorcade. If
Oswald had been outside, don't you think he would've said so?
> Seconds are critical between when the Altgens
> photograph was taken and when the opening frames of the Wiegman film
> were taken.
There are people who've studied the exact timing of the films and
photos, but unfortunately, I'm not one of them.
>I contend that immediately after Altgens was taken Lovelady
> and Bill Shelley left the doorway to go to the traffic island because
> that's where they were when they saw DPD Baker and Truly enter the TSBD.
No, Lovelady and Shelley didn't leave the steps until right after
the shooting stopped. Shelley said:
QUOTE:
>>>
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up
there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and
myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped
there for a minute.
>>>
UNQUOTE
They saw Truly and Baker enter very shortly after they left the
steps, but this was after Z313, well after Altgens. Links to their
testimony:
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/shelley1.htm
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/lovelady.htm
> IMO Oswald came outside into the middle of the TSBD doorway at the same
> time that Shelley and Lovelady left. DPD Fritz had in his notes "out
> with Bill Shelley in front"
Which Shelley denied. Oswald was lying.
>This was next to notes about the first
> floor lunchroom and getting a coke at the second floor lunchroom. IMO
> these three notes are Oswald saying where he was right before the shots,
> during the shots, and after the shots. Fritz never explained at any
> time what the note "out with Bill Shelley in front" was in reference to
> but in his WC testimony he inadvertently (imo) said Oswald told him he
> saw the excitement.
When he exited the TSBD after the shooting, he'd have seen the
excitement.
>What is your opinion about Oswald saying he saw
> Jarman and Norman going through the room (to the west elevator at about
> 12:23pm)? Was he just a good guesser?
You're trying to help him out, Charles, by adding "to the west
elevator at about 12:23pm," which Oswald never said. He's not worthy of
your efforts.
Assuming that Norman was "Shorty," I suspect that Oswald may've
seen the two walk far out into the Houston/Elm intersection (under the 6th
floor window) and then turn up Houston headed toward the TSBD back door.
Oswald may've assumed they'd decided to go to the domino room, where
the workers usually ate lunch. Instead, they went upstairs. But that's
just a guess.
Jean
charles wallace
It's my understanding of witness info that B. R. Williams was over near
the SN window according to him (but really at the SN window according to
two other sources of info) until 12:25 pm when on the floor below Jarman
and Norman showed up and he (Williams) heard them. So I don't think
your theory of Oswald seeing J&N out the window of the 6th floor has any
validity. I added the info of time, the west elevator, and Jarman and
Norman's name because that is derived from their testimony and matched
Oswald's info. I have no desire to help Oswald. I do have a desire to
help seek justice for JFK. Just blaming somebody who was not part of
JFK's murder is not right.
Right after or at 12:25 pm Williams leaves and goes to the fifth floor.
It is about then that Carolyn Walther sees a man stick a rifle out of a
TSBD window. I know witnesses make mistakes and I think she may have
made some mistakes in what she told the FBI. At this time (12:25pm) you
think there is only one guy (Oswald) in the SN window at the TSBD with
CE139. Well, I think the same thing except the man seen in the light
colored sport shirt that all witnesses saw and reported was not Oswald.
I believe Carolyn Walther was correct in saying she saw a man extend
both hands through the window with a rifle in it. Do you believe
Carolyn Walther was correct in this? I know why this is a true thing
she saw but you have to claim she is mistaken, right?
A few minutes after the shots Lillian Mooneyham told the FBI that she
saw a man in the SN window. Do you believe she was correct in what she
told the FBI?
Jean Davison
> Jean,
> It's my understanding of witness info that B. R. Williams was over near
> the SN window according to him (but really at the SN window according to
> two other sources of info) until 12:25 pm when on the floor below Jarman
> and Norman showed up and he (Williams) heard them. So I don't think
> your theory of Oswald seeing J&N out the window of the 6th floor has any
> validity. I added the info of time, the west elevator, and Jarman and
> Norman's name because that is derived from their testimony and matched
> Oswald's info. I have no desire to help Oswald. I do have a desire to
> help seek justice for JFK. Just blaming somebody who was not part of
> JFK's murder is not right.
>
voices that Oswald didn't.
I don't think it's right to blame somebody who wasn't part of JFK's
murder, either.
>
> Right after or at 12:25 pm Williams leaves and goes to the fifth floor.
> It is about then that Carolyn Walther sees a man stick a rifle out of a
> TSBD window. I know witnesses make mistakes and I think she may have
> made some mistakes in what she told the FBI. At this time (12:25pm) you
> think there is only one guy (Oswald) in the SN window at the TSBD with
> CE139. Well, I think the same thing except the man seen in the light
> colored sport shirt that all witnesses saw and reported was not Oswald.
> I believe Carolyn Walther was correct in saying she saw a man extend
> both hands through the window with a rifle in it. Do you believe
> Carolyn Walther was correct in this? I know why this is a true thing
> she saw but you have to claim she is mistaken, right?
Not all witnesses said "sport shirt." At least one (as I recall)
said it may've been a T-shirt. Other witnesses who looked at the SN at
about the same time as Walther didn't see a rifle. Do I think she was
wrong? Yes. Witnesses reported all sorts of things that didn't happen --
JFK standing up, a little white dog in the limo, and so on....
>
> A few minutes after the shots Lillian Mooneyham told the FBI that she
> saw a man in the SN window. Do you believe she was correct in what she
> told the FBI?
By her estimate, 4 to 5 minutes after the shot. I think she's
mistaken, about the time or the floor or both. Do you think a shooter hung
around that long?
Jean
charles wallace
Arnold Rowland saw a black man in the SN window at the same time he saw
the man in the western window with Oswald's rifle at about 12:15pm.
Rowland gave the best description of the rifle and what the man holding
it was wearing. Rowland saw the black man in the window right up to the
time he left at 12:25 pm and then he looked no more. This had to be
Williams. Williams had a chicken sandwich that had bones in it. An
investigating police officer later said he found fresh chicken bones on
a box at that window.
Carolyn Walther imo made many mistakes in her report but the basic thing
that she was right about was that she saw a man extend his arms through
the window with a rifle in it. Now you believe she sought out the FBI
to tell them a story for no reason.
If Oswald was a patsy like he said he was and that he didn't shoot
anybody like he said then someone had to get his rifle from him without
his knowledge. If that someone wanted to tell a co-conspirator that the
assassination was on and that he had the rifle, then what better way
than to just show it to his partner by thrusting it through the window?
Most folks were still focused on the ambulance picking up the epileptic
seizure victim anyway.
Lillian Mooneyham was mistaken in her estimate of 4 to 5 minutes. She
described where she was when the shots were fired and where she went
when she saw the man in the window. She described what was happening
when she saw the man. There were people starting to run up the grassy
knoll. The distance she described can be walked in about a minute. She
saw the man in a time span of around something like two minutes or less.
Yes, the man stuck around a little while.
I suppose you think Walther and Mooneyham just made some reports that
just happened to be coincidental to an imagined conspiracy. I suppose
you think it was coincidental to conspiracy thinking that Wednesday
afternoon (November 20) that the Dallas police were trying to get around
behind the two guys that were at the parking lot fence on the grassy
knoll aiming a rifle at passing cars?
Did Earlene Roberts see two uniformed police officers drive up and toot
the horn at the roominghouse on Beckley while Oswald was in his room at
1:00 pm?
How did Inspector Sawyer know about Charles Givens being able to point a
finger at someone being the shooter before either Givens or Oswald were
in custody?
How did Captain Fritz know Oswald's roominghouse address before Oswald
told anybody?
Why do you think there is photographs of people that appear to have been
shooters and they also appear to have been dressed in police uniforms?
All conspiracy suspicions are just based on coincidences?
Ben Holmes
says...
Oh, come on! Charles!! You're only giving eyewitness testimony!!! And
*everyone* knows how unreliable mere eyewitnesses are! They were *all*
mistaken, it's the PHYSICAL evidence that's reliable here...
Jean Davison
"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
news:dprln...@drn.newsguy.com...
Don't blame me, Ben, if that's what the research shows.
The keywords "eyewitness," "memory," and "unreliable" produce
55,000+
hits:
Since witnesses frequently contradict one another, they can't all
be right, can they?
Jean
Jean Davison
> Jean,
> Arnold Rowland saw a black man in the SN window at the same time he saw
> the man in the western window with Oswald's rifle at about 12:15pm.
> Rowland gave the best description of the rifle and what the man holding
> it was wearing. Rowland saw the black man in the window right up to the
> time he left at 12:25 pm and then he looked no more. This had to be
> Williams. Williams had a chicken sandwich that had bones in it. An
> investigating police officer later said he found fresh chicken bones on
> a box at that window.
>
> Carolyn Walther imo made many mistakes in her report but the basic thing
> that she was right about was that she saw a man extend his arms through
> the window with a rifle in it. Now you believe she sought out the FBI
> to tell them a story for no reason.
What makes you believe that she's right about the rifle, Charles,
when no other witness reported this?
>
> If Oswald was a patsy like he said he was and that he didn't shoot
> anybody like he said then someone had to get his rifle from him without
> his knowledge. If that someone wanted to tell a co-conspirator that the
> assassination was on and that he had the rifle, then what better way
> than to just show it to his partner by thrusting it through the window?
> Most folks were still focused on the ambulance picking up the epileptic
> seizure victim anyway.
You're quoting two witnesses who don't agree. Rowland
claimed he saw a black man in the same window in which Walther (among
others) saw a white man. Maybe Rowland saw one of the black
men on the fifth floor and misremembered the floor. I say this because no
other witness reported a black man in that window.
I think Walther was sincere, too, but she didn't report this to
the police immediately, even by her own statement. She watched
the motorcade with a coworker, Pearl Springer, who said that
Walther didn't say anything to her about seeing a man with a rifle, either.
Read Springer's account here:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0271a.htm
Here's Walther's:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0270b.htm
Walther's statement says, "Almost immediately after noticing
this man with the rifle and the other man standing beside him, someone in
the crowd said 'Here they come," and she looked to her left, looking
south on Houston street, to see the Presidential Party."
Fischer and Edwards were looking at this man at the same time
she was.
Ronald Fischer said, "....about 10 or 15 seconds before the
first car came around that corner, Bob [Edwards] punched me and said, "Look
at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark---said, "He looks
like he's uncomfortable"--or something. And I looked up
and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It
was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And,
then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of
the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my
attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one,
and, secondly, he wasn't watching-uh---he didn't look like he was watching
for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River
and the triple underpass down at the end-toward the end of Elm Street.
And--uh--all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never-he
never moved anything. Just was there transfixed."
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/fischer.htm
These witnesses looked at the same window at the same time
and remembered it differently. I'll go with Fischer and Edwards because
they agree and both gave statements the same day. No one stuck a rifle out
the window before the motorcade arrived, imo. If you believe that, how do
you explain Fischer's testimony? Or Edwards' and Brennan's, who didn't see
this, either?
>
> Lillian Mooneyham was mistaken in her estimate of 4 to 5 minutes. She
> described where she was when the shots were fired and where she went
> when she saw the man in the window. She described what was happening
> when she saw the man. There were people starting to run up the grassy
> knoll. The distance she described can be walked in about a minute. She
> saw the man in a time span of around something like two minutes or less.
> Yes, the man stuck around a little while.
It doesn't really matter what she described. She could still
be wrong. You can't pin down the time this way, imo.
>
> I suppose you think Walther and Mooneyham just made some reports that
> just happened to be coincidental to an imagined conspiracy.
No, but their accounts don't corroborate one another. People
don't *have* to "make things up." Look up some books on memory, Charles,
like Elizabeth Loftus' Eyewitness Testimony. Loftus demonstrates how easily
people's memories can be influenced and changed. It's not unusual at all.
> I suppose
> you think it was coincidental to conspiracy thinking that Wednesday
> afternoon (November 20) that the Dallas police were trying to get around
> behind the two guys that were at the parking lot fence on the grassy
> knoll aiming a rifle at passing cars?
According to who? And were these two guys complete idiots?
>
> Did Earlene Roberts see two uniformed police officers drive up and toot
> the horn at the roominghouse on Beckley while Oswald was in his room at
> 1:00 pm?
So she claimed, but there are problems with her story, too.
And I'm not accusing her of lying.
>
> How did Inspector Sawyer know about Charles Givens being able to point a
> finger at someone being the shooter before either Givens or Oswald were
> in custody?
This comes from Sawyer's testimony, right? Doesn't it seem
strange that Sawyer would help frame Oswald... and then *tell you about
it*??
>
> How did Captain Fritz know Oswald's roominghouse address before Oswald
> told anybody?
Do you have a verbatim transcript showing what Oswald told
everybody? I don't think so.
>
> Why do you think there is photographs of people that appear to have been
> shooters and they also appear to have been dressed in police uniforms?
>
Badgeman? Optical illusion.
> All conspiracy suspicions are just based on coincidences?
Some are. Every single witness and investigator was a fallible
human being, so there are errors, misunderstandings, you name it.
Jean
charles wallace
You apparently feel you disregard any witness you want even when they
work for a court of law across from the TSBD.
Okay, physical evidence then. You seem to believe the made up scenario
where Oswald alone supposedly fires three shots and three shells were
found in the TSBD.
Empty shell CE 543 was not fired from the rifle CE 139 according to Dr.
Josiah Thompson in his book ''Six Seconds I Dallas" and according to
Forrest Chapman. Can you give us your non conspiracy spin on the empty
shell and set the two PhDs straight?
Regards, Charles
The JFK Conspiracy Killing Scenario
From: charles wallace (ccwa...@webtv.net)
Subject: The JFK Shooting
copyright June, 2004
This shooting scenario is based in part on the Zapruder camera frame
shot sequence theory of JFK assassination researcher Clark Wilkins. His
Zapruder 'Up Bounce Theory' says there is a single up bounce at frame
Z317 after the known shot at frames Z312-313. Additional single frame
bounces are at Z186, Z204, Z234 and Z328 and represent startle reactions
by Abraham Zapruder 4 to 5 frames after a shot. I have added an
additional Z frame for when the shots from the 6th floor of the Texas
School Book Depository building hit the JFK limousine to account for the
extra distance the sound has to travel to Zapruder's ears for those
particular shots. These 5 shots at Z180-181, Z199-200, Z228-229,
Z312-313, and Z322-323 are not the same as the acoustic (based on the
Dallas Police Department tape recording) theories of Anthony Marsh or
Don Thomas. The shots defined here in this scenario are close enough to
the acoustic data that the acoustic theories must be basically valid but
the acoustic timing of the shots are subject to slight Z frame
variations based on individual interpretation of various factors. The
Zapruder camera has been determined to operate at an average rate of
18.3 frames per second. The following scenario is my interpretation of
what all the facts mean.
I estimate the time is Zapruder frame number 133 and the Texas School
Book Depository shooter has the telescopic sight of Lee H. Oswald's
rifle filled with President John F. Kennedy's head. SNAP! Nothing has
happened. In a panic the shooter ejects the empty shell CE 543 from the
rifle and it gets dented in the process of trying to reload too quickly.
He mistakenly thought that the shell in the chamber when he got the
rifle was a ready to fire bullet. He cycled a live round from the clip
into the chamber as he goes from a standing crouch to the floor on his
knees and starts to aim. A tree now obscures his view but he can still
see JFK. His shot is the signal that his partner on the knoll is waiting
on. He quickly fires.
The fact that empty shell CE 543 was not fired during the assassination
proves Oswald was not part of the conspiracy to kill JFK otherwise he
would never have left an empty shell in the firing chamber. Dr. E.
Forrest Chapman, a forensic scientist found something unexpected about
two of the primers on the three found empty cartridges in the TSBD.
Chapman postulated that one shell (CE 543) was not fired that day
because it had been hit twice by a firing pin and the other shell was a
short charge or partial dud. Dr. Josiah Thompson postulated CE 543 was
not fired in Oswald's rifle in his book "Six Seconds In Dallas" because
the shell was missing a firing chamber mark that was unique to Oswald's
rifle.
1. 'pop'--The first shot is fired at approximately Zapruder frame number
180-181. This is the shot that Governor Connally hears. This is from
Oswald's rifle and fired from the most southeastern window on the 6th
floor of the Texas School Book Depository building with its muzzle
inside the window. It hits JFK in the back. It lodges just under the
skin, no more than a little finger's depth. The FBI report says it
entered at a 45 to 60 degree angle downward and stopped. The hole in
JFK's tailor fitting shirt is 5 3/4 inches down from the collar. Autopsy
doctors used metal probes to determine the end of the wound. JFK looks
with his peripheral vision towards the rear of the limousine at Z198 to
see if someone has stabbed him in the back. JFK had chronic back pains
and initially probably thought the pain was not from an external source.
Mrs. Kennedy has turned upon hearing noise and is staring intently at
JFK at Z198. I postulate a partial dud for this first shot. It is also
probable that this bullet went through a small branch of the tree
between the shooter and JFK. JFK assassination researcher Tom Purvis has
tested the effects of a 6.5mm bullet going through a 1 inch live oak
tree branch and he reports a much reduced velocity with minimum damage
to the bullet. So we have the first bullet leaving Oswald's rifle at a
reduced muzzle velocity and then the velocity being further reduced
after passing through a branch of the live oak tree before hitting JFK's
back at subsonic velocity. I postulate this bullet is CE 399. It will be
found later in Parkland Hospital on the little boy's (Ronald Fuller)
stretcher. It was pushed out of JFK's body during resuscitating efforts
apparently. It became trapped in the folds of the sheet when the sheet
was wadded up and carried in the direction of the dirty clothes area, I
theorize. The medical orderly (David Sanders) who helped clean up Trauma
Room No.1 most likely carried the bloody sheet and laid it down
temporarily on the little boy's stretcher when going into the men's
bathroom. Here CE 399 escaped the sheet and was discovered by Darrell
Tomlinson when he pushed the stretcher against the bathroom door.
2. 'pop'--The second shot is from the grassy knoll and strikes JFK in
the throat. This occurs at approximately Zapruder frame number 199-200.
This bullet's fragments were reported by autopsy x-ray technician Jerrol
Custer to have been seen on an x-ray that is now missing. I postulate a
small .22 caliber hollow nose short lead bullet and subsonic velocity.
The autopsy doctors did not know of this bullet entry during its
procedures. After the autopsy, the autopists learned from Parkland
Hospital's Dr. Perry about the small throat wound that was obscured by
the tracheostomy performed to assist the President's breathing. All
Parkland Hospital medical personnel that saw this wound thought that it
was one of entrance. I speculate that this projectile was fired from one
of the two barrels of a hunter's 'over and under' rifle. The shooter is
behind the small concrete wall on the grassy knoll to JFK's right front.
JFK unmistakably reacts to these first two shots at Z225.
3. 'POW'--The third shot strikes Governor Connally. It is from the Texas
School Book Depository shooter. It enters his back and exits his chest.
The bullet lodges itself in JBC's thigh at approximately Zapruder frame
number 228-229. It is lost at Parkland Hospital during the efforts to
save JBC's life. JBC thought the bullet was found by a nurse in Trauma
Room no.2. The shot occurs as JFK is in full reaction to his wounds.
Connally's wife, Nellie says she turned upon hearing noise and saw the
President with his hands up towards his throat, then her husband John
was hit. JBC reacts visibly at Zapruder frame number 237 to 238 with his
cheeks puffing out with air from his pierced collapsing lung. Oswald's
rifle scope was misaligned to shoot high and to the right.
4. 'POW'--The fourth shot hits JFK in the head at Zapruder frame number
312-313. It is from the grassy knoll. It deflects upon entry towards
JFK's right. Its fragments are mostly lost to the left rear of the
limousine causing reports of a bullet striking the street. There are
some estimated 40 small lead particles in a path through the brain left
from the frangible lead bullet which threw JFK back and to the left.
There are no reports of copper traces left in the brain or on skull
fragments and scalp tissue. All witnesses to the head wound said there
was a large opening in the rear of JFK's head. I speculate this shot is
from the second barrel of the 'over and under' rifle and is a .3xx
caliber lead hunting slug possibly with a hole drilled in its nose.
5. 'POW'--The final shot is from the TSBD at approximately Zapruder
frame number 322-323 and it strikes JBC in the wrist. The bullet breaks
up upon exit and parts of it come to rest in the front seat area of the
limousine after striking the chrome and front windshield. In my opinion
the Zapruder film shows a reflection flare from the windshield when the
fragment hit the chrome strip. One of the two fragments found have human
tissue bits and paper like fibers adhering to it. I speculate the fibers
are from JBC's missing hat. One of the found fragments was missing its
lead center and I speculate that it escaped the limousine and hit the
curb on Main Street causing a concrete chip or the fragment itself to
scratch the cheek of James Tague. Another fragment of this 6.5mm bullet
hits the manhole area on the south side of Elm and then goes into the
grass and is lost.
The sounds in Dealey Plaza have been 'pop...pop...POW......POW..POW' and
corresponding echoes. Most of the ear witnesses did not consciously hear
the initial two shots that sounded 'pop...pop'. They described the first
shot ('pop...pop...POW') as sounding like a firecracker, then a pause
followed by two more loud shots in quick succession.
In my opinion, the two shooters are shown in photographs. The TSBD
shooter is shown in Tom Dillard's close-up photo standing at the
adjacent closed window to the open Sniper's Nest window after the shots
surveying the chaos. A vertical shadow is on his face cast by the
framing thus verifying that the face is real. He was also seen standing
in the sixth floor window after the shots from across the street by
court clerk witness Lillian Mooneyham. He used Oswald's MC rifle. The
grassy knoll shooter is shown in Mary Moorman's photo and named "Badge
Man" but is really much closer in my opinion than behind the stockade
fence. He is positioned in "Black Dog Man's" location behind the low
concrete wall. BM is BDM. He used a hunter's 'over and under' rifle (a
22 caliber barrel and a .3xx type caliber barrel) in my opinion. Knoll
witness Gordon Arnold claims the knoll shooter had an unusual looking
rifle and that the man kicked him upon stopping to take away the film
from his camera. This man is photographed (Towner slide no. 3) running
away after this encounter with the rifle shown in his left hand. A
shadow cast from his arm onto the rifle verifies that the rifle is real.
I believe both shooters have as a souvenir an empty casing that each
thinks was the bullet that hit JFK in the head. Both shooters appear to
be wearing police uniforms. Oswald's housekeeper Earlene Roberts says
she saw two policemen drive up in front of the roominghouse and toot the
horn 30 minutes after the assassination while Oswald was in his room.
Todd W. Vaughan
>If that someone wanted to tell a co-conspirator that the
assassination was on and that he had the rifle, then what better way
than to just show it to his partner by thrusting it through the window?
Most folks were still focused on the ambulance picking up the epileptic
seizure victim anyway.<
Any would-be-assassin would be an idiot to thrust a rifle outisde of
the window before the target appeared.
Todd
tomnln
Assassination.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136697813.7...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Todd W. Vaughan
> Assuming that Norman was "Shorty," I suspect that Oswald may've
seen the two walk far out into the Houston/Elm intersection (under the
6th
floor window) and then turn up Houston headed toward the TSBD back
door.
Oswald may've assumed they'd decided to go to the domino room, where
the workers usually ate lunch. Instead, they went upstairs. But
that's
just a guess. <
I was thinking just last week that when Bonnie Ray Williams joined
Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor they may have discussed with
Williams that they had eaten lunch in the domino room. Oswald, directly
above the three, could have overheard them.
Todd
Bud
<snicker> Kooks think conspirators told the Dallas police where Oz
lived before the assassination. What a bunch of whackos.
Anthony Marsh
> Jean,
> You apparently feel you disregard any witness you want even when they
> work for a court of law across from the TSBD.
>
> Okay, physical evidence then. You seem to believe the made up scenario
> where Oswald alone supposedly fires three shots and three shells were
> found in the TSBD.
>
> Empty shell CE 543 was not fired from the rifle CE 139 according to Dr.
> Josiah Thompson in his book ''Six Seconds I Dallas" and according to
> Forrest Chapman. Can you give us your non conspiracy spin on the empty
> shell and set the two PhDs straight?
>
No, that is wrong. In the first place you have misstated what Tink said.
He doubted that it was fired THAT DAY during the JFK shooting. It
obviously could have been fired at an earlier time. And even Dr. Chapman
can not claim that it was never fired. It does not require a non
conspiracy spin to explain it. The dent on the lip got there AFTER the
bullet had been fired. There is no physical way to make that dent when
the bullet is still in the cartridge.
charles wallace
What if the co-conspirator (knoll shooter) tells the plot mastermind
(TSBD shooter) 'I'm not even going to get my rifle out of the car trunk
unless you show me that you have Oswald's rifle'. And continues: 'Even
then I'm not going to fire a single shot unless I hear that you have
fired first'. I've been told that this knoll shooter did not have good
sense by a person who claimed to know of him but I believe my imagined
conversation above is an accurate guess of part of the planning.
Regards, Charles
charles wallace
There are certain things about the evidence in this case that you are
very correct about imo, but there are other evidentiary items you are
silent about or show that you lack full understanding of them. I don't
even want to know why that is.
Regards, Charles
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136747487.1...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
==========================================================================
> <snicker> Kooks think conspirators told the Dallas police where Oz
> lived before the assassination. What a bunch of whackos.
WOW
Is this Felon still posting here?
Destruction of evidence is a felony.
Protecting thiose felons is ALSO a Felony.
==========================================================================
tomnln
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136683050.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Todd W. Vaughan
No different than your "Unless someone wanted to draw attention to that
window prior to the
Assassination." above.
Guesswork. Pure and simple.
Get over yourself. You're not that important.
Todd
tomnln
1. Destroying Oswald’s note to Dallas FBI Office.
2. Destroying Hosty’s name, address, phone number
And license plate number from Oswald’s notebook.
3 . Destroying Walker back yard photo.
4. Changing Walker bullet from "Steel-Jacketed"
to
Copper Jacketed .
5. Changing transcript of Oswald's radio debate.
6. Lying when claiming Paper for gun bag matched
TSBD paper.
6. Lying by stating Oswald had NO connection to
CIA.
7. Lying about Oswald going to Mexico City.
8. Washing out Limo at Parkland Hospital.
Thus Destroying Evidence.
9. Stealing body from Dallas jurisdiction under
Gun Point.
10. Stealing Limo from Dallas Jurisdiction.
11. Destroying part 3 of P O Box Rental Application.
12. Showed LHO 133A BEFORE it was Found. WCR App XI
13. Dry Cleaning/Pressing JBC’s Clothing.
14. Switch Entrance/Exit wounds on JBC’s Wrist wound.
etc. etc. etc.
Todd W. Vaughan
You were guessing when you said ""Unless someone wanted to draw
attention to that
window prior to the Assassination." right?
Because you certainly don't have any "Evidence/Testimony" that actually
proves that "wanted to draw attention to that window prior to the
Assassination."
I mean, you don't have any testimony where someone confessed that "I
wanted to draw attention to that window prior to the Assassination."
And it's not like you have a letter in evidence where someone wrote "We
are going to draw attention to that window prior to the Assassination."
So you weren't relying on any "Evidence/Testimony".
You were just "Guessing"
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
What if after the co-conspirator (TSBD shooter) held his rifle outside
of the window, spectators waiting for the motorcade saw it, reported it
to Harkness, Putnam, Denham, Fox, Smith, or any of the other Dallas
Police Officers in Dealey Plaza, and they stormed/surrounded the
building and alerted Chief Curry? The jig would be up. Do you
postulate conspirators that stupid?
Todd
Jean Davison
>Jean,
>You apparently feel you disregard any witness you want even when they
>work for a court of law across from the TSBD.
It doesn't matter who she worked for, any witness can be wrong.
But which witnesses do you "want" to "disregard," Charles? Are you
"disregarding" Fischer and Edwards? When witnesses contradict one another,
what else can one do but conclude that somebody must be mistaken?
>Okay, physical evidence then. You seem to believe the made up scenario
>where Oswald alone supposedly fires three shots and three shells were
>found in the TSBD.
>Empty shell CE 543 was not fired from the rifle CE 139 according to Dr.
>Josiah Thompson in his book ''Six Seconds I Dallas" and according to
>Forrest Chapman. Can you give us your non conspiracy spin on the empty
>shell and set the two PhDs straight?
I don't know about Chapman, but Josiah Thompson's doctorate was in
philosophy, I believe. The HSCA firearms panel's report discusses the dent
in CE 543 in the middle of this page:
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0191a.htm
A JFK researcher who posts here sometimes also occasionally got
dented shells when he fired his M-C. Since the dent is created as the
bullet is being ejected, there's no reason CE 543 couldn't have been fired
from the M-C.
Jean
charles wallace
You wrote: "It doesn't really matter what she described. She could still
be wrong. You can't really pin down the time like this imo."
Lillian Moonyham's FBI report which I include in this post below proves
a number of things. By the way a copy of this FBI report was not
available to the public in a easy to read print size until about 2 years
ago or 40 years after the assassination as best as I can tell. This FBI
report proves that the media has been biased in the coverage of JFK's
murder because as far as I can tell Mooneyham has never been discussed
in the media. This FBI report proves that the Warren Commission did not
conduct an honest investigation because Mrs. Mooneyham would have been
called to give testimony otherwise.
This lady a court clerk knew the importance of truth and innocently
reported what she saw and heard. In three instances in her report she
proves there was a conspiracy in the murder of JFK. She says she saw
JFK slump to the left after hearing a gunshot but at this point in time
the WCR says two shots have been fired. She goes on to say that there
was a pause then two more shots were discharged close together. The WCR
and LNers claim there is only one more shot after we see JFK slump to
the left in the Zapruder film. Mrs. Moneyham then said minutes after
the assassination after she had gone to Judge Hyer's office she saw a
man in the sixth floor window.
Jean,
Here is your chance to claim she was wrong on all three counts something
the press, the WCR, and LNers up til now have avoided. Suggest even in
one of the instances that she was correct and we have a conspiracy to
murder JFK.
Regards, Charles
START>>>>>>>
FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION
Date January 10, 1964
LILLIAN MOONEYHAM, Deputy District Court Clerk, 95th Court, Records
Building, advised that she watched the Presidential Motorcade on
November 22, 1963 from the windows of the court house. She, along with
Mrs. ROSE CLARK and JEANETTE E. HOOKER, observed the Presidential
Motorcade proceeding down Main Street from the window of Judge J. FRANK
WILSON'S courtroom, overlooking Main Street. As the motorcade passed
them on Main Street, MOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER ran to Judge HENRY
KING's courtroom window, which faces Houston Street, in time to see the
motorcade turn west from Elm Street on Houston. Mrs MOONEYHAM believes
that BOB REID, Deputy District Court Clerk, Dallas, Texas, was in Judge
KING's courtroom watching the motorcade at the same time as was
MOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER.
Mrs. MOONEYHAM heard a gunshot and observed President KENNEDY slump to
the left of the seat of the car. At the time of the initial shot, Mrs.
MOONEYHAM believed that a firecracker had gone off. Following the first
shot, there was a slight pause and then two more shots were discharged,
the second and third shots sounding closer together. Mrs. MOONEYHAM
observed Mrs. KENNEDY climb up on the back of the car and her eyes were
then diverted toward the left of the Presidential Motorcade on Elm
Street toward a bystander, a man who had fallen to the ground.
Mrs. MOONEYHAM and Mrs. CLARK left Judge KING's courtroom and went to
the office of Judge JULIEN C. HYER on the third floor of the Records
Building, where they continued to observe the happenings from Judge
HYER's window. From Judge HYER's window, Mrs. MOONEYHAM noted a number
of bystanders running toward the cement pavilion which borders Elm
Street between the railroad viaduct and the Texas School Book Depository
(TSBD). Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 1/2 to 5 minutes
following the shots fired by the assassin, that she looked up towards
the sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing in
a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared to
Mrs. MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not
close up to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so that
Mrs. MOONEYHAM could not make out his features. She stated that she
could give no description of this individual except to say that she is
sure it was a man she observed, because the figure had on trousers. She
could not recall the color of the trousers.
Mrs. MOONEYHAM stated she could not furnish any additional identifying
information regarding the figure she observed in this window.
Mrs. MOONEYHAM stated that following the assassination of President JOHN
FITZGERALD KENNEDY, she observed a re-enactment of the assassination on
two separate occasions on one day, and it was her impression that the
Presidential Motorcade was going slower than the re-enactment motorcade.
She stated that it was her estimation that the Presidential car was
going approximately five or six miles per hour at the time of the
assassination, however, she noted that her estimation was based upon her
observation of the Presidential car as it moved west on Elm away from
the position where she was located.
on 1/8/64 at Dallas, Texas
File # DL 100-10461 By Special Agent GEORGE T. BINNEY Date Dictated
1/9/64
Commision Exhibit No. 2099
END>>>>>>>
Footnote: Mrs. Mooneyham's time estimate should have been closer to two
minutes if the walking distance and other facts are considered.
Bud
If I were you, I`d be more concerned about someone throwing a net
over me, crackers.
==========================================================================
Bud
There was a chance there for you to address the person Edwards and
Fischer saw in that very same window. You opted not to. Why was that?
Todd W. Vaughan
"(Badge Man) is positioned in "Black Dog Man's" location behind the low
concrete wall."
Impossible.
See http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman.htm , particularly at
http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/badgeman_3.htm
Todd
Bud
It`s not even necessary to try and figure out how Oswald could have
known about Norman and Jarman, because according to Bookout`s reports,
this possible sighting by Oz of these two men occurred after the
asassination, and after Oz`s encounter with Baker on the second floor.
The passage from Bookout`s FBI report #$ that CT decide to interpret as
Oz seeing Jarman and Norman crossiing the first floor reads as
follows...
"Oswald stated that on November 22nd, 1963 he had eaten in the
lunchroom, alone, but recalled possibly two negro employees walking
through during this period."
The problem with this is that "during this period" was not defined.
That is because Bookout had already placed the time that Oz had eaten
in his FBI report #3, which reads in part...
"Oswald states that on Novenmber 22nd, 1963, at the time of the
search of the Texas School Book Depositry building by Dallas police
officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having purchased
a Coca-cola from the soft drink machine, at which time a police officer
came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there.
Mr Truly was present and verified he was an employee and the police
officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building.
Oswald stated that he took hos Coke down to the first floor and stood
around and had his lunch in the employees lunch room."
As you can see, Bookout places Oz in the domino room eating lunch
post assassination. It doesn`t serve as an alibi even if Jarman and
Norman saw Oz on the first floor after his encounter with Baker (which
they said they hadn`t anyway). This whole thing is nothing but a CT wet
dream, they desire so badly to contrive an alibi for the assassin in
this case, they will grasp at anything. Reminiscent of some catholics
seeing Mary in all manner of forms.
> Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
Very, very, nice.
Todd
Anthony Marsh
> Tony,
>
> There are certain things about the evidence in this case that you are
> very correct about imo, but there are other evidentiary items you are
> silent about or show that you lack full understanding of them. I don't
> even want to know why that is.
>
I am a careful researcher. I may believe something, but post little
about it until I have the proof in my hands.
Anthony Marsh
The grassy knoll shooter was the insurance shot. He was not supposed to
fire unless the President was about to leave Dealey Plaza alive, which
turned out to be the case. The problem was that Oswald's rifle jammed
and there was a pause of about 5 seconds. So it appeared that something
had gone wrong in the TSBD and the grassy knoll shooter had to take the
insurance shot.
Bud
Todd W. Vaughan wrote:
> Bud,
>
> Very, very, nice.
>
> Todd
Glad you liked it, Todd. There are those who think I am merely an
insult-troll. They are right most of the time. Anyway, I`m sure you
checked to verify what I supplied, and found it in the Warren Report:
Appendix XI, which can be found here, if the URL works...
Todd W. Vaughan
>The grassy knoll shooter was the insurance shot. He was not supposed to
fire unless the President was about to leave Dealey Plaza alive, which
turned out to be the case.<
How do you know this?
>The problem was that Oswald's rifle jammed <
How do you know this?
All speculation.
Todd
charles wallace
I disagree. The plan was for the knoll shooter with a good rifle and
proven shooting to do the killing. The only reliance on the junk rifle
Oswald had was to incriminate him.
charles wallace
I can't respond to evidence at once. Fischer and Edwards have no
conflict with my view of what happened. They support it. Both saw the
man in the light colored sport shirt at the SN window. Sequence:
Rowland sees light colored shirt guy with rifle in western window and
blackman (got to be) Williams in SN window at 12:15 pm. Rowland keeps
looking for rifleman to show wife but only sees Williams. Around 12:25
Rowland sees blackman (Williams) in SN and looks no longer at TSBD.
Williams leaves. Guy in light colored shirt thrusts rifle through SN
window and is seen by Carolyn Walther. Fischer and Edwards and Brennan
start looking at light colored shirt guy. Fischer and Edwards are
puzzled by the guy's stare at the grassy knoll. TSBD shooter is trying
to see if his knoll shooting partner is going to get his rifle and get
in position behind the fence. The TSBD shooter does not want to rely on
Oswald's junk rifle to do the killing.
Regards, Charles
Ben Holmes
>
>charles wallace wrote:
>> Tony,
>>
>> There are certain things about the evidence in this case that you are
>> very correct about imo, but there are other evidentiary items you are
>> silent about or show that you lack full understanding of them. I don't
>> even want to know why that is.
>>
>
>I am a careful researcher.
So careful, in fact, that he cannot cite *ONE SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE, CITATION,
TESTIMONY, SOURCE, OR EVEN REASONABLE ARGUMENT* for his assertion that Dr. Humes
was busy burning anything at all on Saturday morning, or that he burned anything
on two separate days.
>I may believe something, but post little
>about it until I have the proof in my hands.
Clearly untrue, isn't it, Tony?
tomnln
Because a sniper assassin would NEVER reveal himself in advance;
The ONLY reason to show a rifle out ANY window in advance is to bring
attention to it in advance.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136836579....@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136840010.4...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
*********************************************************************
> If I were you, I`d be more concerned about someone throwing a net
> over me, crackers.
I see you STILL want to engage in trading Insults;
O K I'll play along again bud.
If I were you I'd be more concerned about someone Deporting people with
AIDS.
*********************************************************************
charles wallace
You and Tony both play like the issue is the dent in CE 543. You both
know very well that the issue is that an area of the shell has no dent
with respect to Dr. Thompson's findings of the firing chamber mark but
should have had. Dr. E. Forrest Chapman a forensic scientist found that
CE 543 was hit twice by the firing pin just like an FBI example shell.
CE 543 was not fired in Oswald's rifle because it is missing a mark that
the rifle makes on a shell when firing. Also even if it somehow was
able to be fired without leaving this mark why would Oswald pull the
trigger on an empty shell?
Regards, Charles
Bud
I don`t much care what they do to you. Your turn.
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136842054.9...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Todd W. Vaughan wrote:
>> Jean,
>> > Assuming that Norman was "Shorty," I suspect that Oswald may've
>> seen the two walk far out into the Houston/Elm intersection (under the
>> 6th
>> floor window) and then turn up Houston headed toward the TSBD back
>> door.
>> Oswald may've assumed they'd decided to go to the domino room, where
>> the workers usually ate lunch. Instead, they went upstairs. But
>> that's
>> just a guess. <
>>
??JUST A GUESS???
>> I was thinking just last week that when Bonnie Ray Williams joined
>> Norman and Jarman on the 5th floor they may have discussed with
>> Williams that they had eaten lunch in the domino room. Oswald, directly
>> above the three, could have overheard them.
???ANOTHER GUESS???
=========================================================================
> It`s not even necessary to try and figure out how Oswald could have
> known about Norman and Jarman, because according to Bookout`s reports,
> this possible sighting by Oz of these two men occurred after the
> asassination, and after Oz`s encounter with Baker on the second floor.
> The passage from Bookout`s FBI report #$ that CT decide to interpret as
> Oz seeing Jarman and Norman crossiing the first floor reads as
> follows...
Bud;
How do you know WHICH story from Baker to believe?
He gave FOUR (4) different stories about the lunchroom encounter?
You DO know there were 4 different stories from Baker don't you Bud?
ps. You know that Lying in a Murder case is a Felony don't you Bud?
======================================================================
> "Oswald stated that on November 22nd, 1963 he had eaten in the
> lunchroom, alone, but recalled possibly two negro employees walking
> through during this period."
You don't KNOW what Oswald said Bud.
There were no tape recordings remember they said they had NO tape recorder?
Another Lie btw see DPD floor plan showing "Recording Room" just accross
the hall from Fritz'a office.
NOT to be confused with "Records Room" Down the hall to the left.
========================================================================
tomnln
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136842230.4...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
There are so many errors & deletions in what your link shows that I can't
list them all here.
Try putting your money where your mouth is & buy the volumes.
Only Originals are "Unabridged".
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136846609.0...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jean Davison
>Jean,
>You wrote: "It doesn't really matter what she described. She could still
>be wrong. You can't really pin down the time like this imo."
>Lillian Moonyham's FBI report which I include in this post below proves
>a number of things. By the way a copy of this FBI report was not
>available to the public in a easy to read print size until about 2 years
>ago or 40 years after the assassination as best as I can tell. This FBI
>report proves that the media has been biased in the coverage of JFK's
>murder because as far as I can tell Mooneyham has never been discussed
>in the media. This FBI report proves that the Warren Commission did not
>conduct an honest investigation because Mrs. Mooneyham would have been
>called to give testimony otherwise.
I disagree with what you say there, Charles, but I know I won't change
your mind. I don't think one witness's account can *prove* anything.
>This lady a court clerk knew the importance of truth and
>innocently reported what she saw and heard.
It wouldn't matter if she were Mother Teresa. Please read up on
eyewitness testimony.
>In three instances in her report she
>proves there was a conspiracy in the murder of JFK. She says she saw
>JFK slump to the left after hearing a gunshot but at this point in time
>the WCR says two shots have been fired. She goes on to say that there
>was a pause then two more shots were discharged close together. The WCR
>and LNers claim there is only one more shot after we see JFK slump to
>the left in the Zapruder film.
Actually, the WCR didn't say which shot missed. But how does she
"prove" that JFK slumped to the left after the first shot? Just by saying
so?
>Mrs. Moneyham then said minutes after
>the assassination after she had gone to Judge Hyer's office she saw a
>man in the sixth floor window.
More precisely, she "estimated that it was about 4 1/2 to 5
minutes after the shots." You say that it was a shorter time considering the
"walking distance," but the walking distance is irrelevant. She simply
said it was that many minutes *after the shots*. Her estimate
may well be off, but it could've been fewer minutes or more minutes -- who
knows?
She also didn't specify *the* sixth floor window. She said *a* sixth
floor window, according to the report.
>Jean,
>Here is your chance to claim she was wrong on all three counts something
>the press, the WCR, and LNers up til now have avoided. Suggest even in
>one of the instances that she was correct and we have a conspiracy to
>murder JFK.
I disagree that her testimony proves anything.
Jean
>Regards, Charles
>>>>
START>>>>>>>FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATIONDate January
10, 1964LILLIAN MOONEYHAM, Deputy District Court Clerk, 95th Court,
RecordsBuilding, advised that she watched the Presidential Motorcade
onNovember 22, 1963 from the windows of the court house. She, along withMrs.
ROSE CLARK and JEANETTE E. HOOKER, observed the PresidentialMotorcade
proceeding down Main Street from the window of Judge J. FRANKWILSON'S
courtroom, overlooking Main Street. As the motorcade passedthem on Main
Street, MOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER ran to Judge HENRYKING's courtroom
window, which faces Houston Street, in time to see themotorcade turn west
from Elm Street on Houston. Mrs MOONEYHAM believesthat BOB REID, Deputy
District Court Clerk, Dallas, Texas, was in JudgeKING's courtroom watching
the motorcade at the same time as wasMOONEYHAM, CLARK and HOOKER.Mrs.
MOONEYHAM heard a gunshot and observed President KENNEDY slump tothe left of
the seat of the car. At the time of the initial shot, Mrs.MOONEYHAM believed
that a firecracker had gone off. Following the firstshot, there was a slight
pause and then two more shots were discharged,the second and third shots
sounding closer together. Mrs. MOONEYHAMobserved Mrs. KENNEDY climb up on
the back of the car and her eyes werethen diverted toward the left of the
Presidential Motorcade on ElmStreet toward a bystander, a man who had fallen
to the ground.Mrs. MOONEYHAM and Mrs. CLARK left Judge KING's courtroom and
went tothe office of Judge JULIEN C. HYER on the third floor of the
RecordsBuilding, where they continued to observe the happenings from
JudgeHYER's window. From Judge HYER's window, Mrs. MOONEYHAM noted a
numberof bystanders running toward the cement pavilion which borders
ElmStreet between the railroad viaduct and the Texas School Book
Depository(TSBD). Mrs. MOONEYHAM estimated that it was about 4 1/2 to 5
minutesfollowing the shots fired by the assassin, that she looked up
towardsthe sixth floor of the TSBD and observed the figure of a man standing
in a sixth floor window behind some cardboard boxes. This man appeared
toMrs.
MOONEYHAM to be looking out of the window, however, the man was not close up
to the window but was standing slightly back from it, so thatMrs. MOONEYHAM
could not make out his features. She stated that shecould give no
description of this individual except to say that she issure it was a man
she observed, because the figure had on trousers. Shecould not recall the
color of the trousers.Mrs. MOONEYHAM stated she could not furnish any
additional identifying information regarding the figure she observed in this
window.Mrs. MOONEYHAM stated that following the assassination of President
JOHNFITZGERALD KENNEDY, she observed a re-enactment of the assassination
ontwo separate occasions on one day, and it was her impression that
thePresidential Motorcade was going slower than the re-enactment
motorcade.She stated that it was her estimation that the Presidential car
wasgoing approximately five or six miles per hour at the time of
theassassination, however, she noted that her estimation was based upon
herobservation of the Presidential car as it moved west on Elm away fromthe
position where she was located.on 1/8/64 at Dallas, TexasFile # DL 100-10461
By Special Agent GEORGE T. BINNEY Date Dictated1/9/64Commision Exhibit No.
2099END>>>>>>>Footnote: Mrs. Mooneyham's time estimate should have been
closer to twominutes if the walking distance and other facts are considered.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0275a.htmCase
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136856334.4...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
charles wallace
According to your reasoning the courts and laws of this nation should be
changed to exclude all witness testimony.
It makes no difference to you that quite a number of other witnesses
said they heard a shot and then JFK slumped. Even the Dallas Police
Department homicide report said the same thing. It makes no difference
to you that many other witnesses said they heard two more shots that
were close together after they saw JFK slump.
Yes, you have the right to believe anything you desire. Are you content
with the justice that JFK and his family recieved?
Regards, Charles
Case Wide Open: A JFK Murder Investigation
http://community.webtv.net/ccwallace/CaseWideOpenAJFK
Todd W. Vaughan
And risk blowing the whole set-up? I don't think so.
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
>Do all Cheerleaders have Pom Poms? <
Yes, and it doesn't surprise me that you'd have to ask.
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
>He mistakenly thought that the shell in the chamber when he got the
rifle was a ready to fire bullet.<
Your assassins out to kill JFK are so stupid that they fail to check
and see if the rifle is laoded before they fire?
What are their names, Curly, Larry, and Moe?
Todd
Anthony Marsh
>> Jean,
>> You apparently feel you disregard any witness you want even when they
>> work for a court of law across from the TSBD.
>
> It doesn't matter who she worked for, any witness can be wrong.
>
> But which witnesses do you "want" to "disregard," Charles? Are you
Maybe we can disregard ALL witnesses. Eyewitness testimony is the most
unreliable form of evidence. There are plenty of crimes, including murder,
where there are no witnesses and yet the crime can be solved with physical
evidence.
> "disregarding" Fischer and Edwards? When witnesses contradict one another,
> what else can one do but conclude that somebody must be mistaken?
>
You can also conclude that they are both correct or you can conclude that
they are both mistaken. 10 witnesses to a bank robbery report that the
getaway car is black. 10 witnesses to the same bank robbery report that
the car is white. You would conclude that half of the witnesses are wrong.
It may be that ALL the witnesses are wrong. That the real getaway car was
red, recovered later with the fingerprints of the robbers and seen on
videotape. Or it may be that there were two getaway cars, one white and
one black. Or it may be that the getaway car had a black body and white
top, so half the witnesses only saw the top of the car.
>> Okay, physical evidence then. You seem to believe the made up scenario
>> where Oswald alone supposedly fires three shots and three shells were
>> found in the TSBD.
>
>> Empty shell CE 543 was not fired from the rifle CE 139 according to Dr.
>> Josiah Thompson in his book ''Six Seconds I Dallas" and according to
>> Forrest Chapman. Can you give us your non conspiracy spin on the empty
>> shell and set the two PhDs straight?
>
> I don't know about Chapman, but Josiah Thompson's doctorate was in
> philosophy, I believe. The HSCA firearms panel's report discusses the dent
> in CE 543 in the middle of this page:
>
> http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol7/html/HSCA_Vol7_0191a.htm
>
> A JFK researcher who posts here sometimes also occasionally got
> dented shells when he fired his M-C. Since the dent is created as the
> bullet is being ejected, there's no reason CE 543 couldn't have been fired
> from the M-C.
>
> Jean
>
> Regards, Charles
>
> The JFK Conspiracy Killing Scenario
> From: charles wallace (ccwa...@webtv.net)
> Subject: The JFK Shooting
> copyright June, 2004
>
> This shooting scenario is based in part on the Zapruder camera frame
> shot sequence theory of JFK assassination researcher Clark Wilkins. His
> Zapruder 'Up Bounce Theory' says there is a single up bounce at frame
> Z317 after the known shot at frames Z312-313. Additional single frame
> bounces are at Z186, Z204, Z234 and Z328 and represent startle reactions
> by Abraham Zapruder 4 to 5 frames after a shot. I have added an
> additional Z frame for when the shots from the 6th floor of the Texas
> School Book Depository building hit the JFK limousine to account for the
> extra distance the sound has to travel to Zapruder's ears for those
> particular shots. These 5 shots at Z180-181, Z199-200, Z228-229,
> Z312-313, and Z322-323 are not the same as the acoustic (based on the
> Dallas Police Department tape recording) theories of Anthony Marsh or
> Don Thomas. The shots defined here in this scenario are close enough to
> the acoustic data that the acoustic theories must be basically valid but
> the acoustic timing of the shots are subject to slight Z frame
> variations based on individual interpretation of various factors. The
> Zapruder camera has been determined to operate at an average rate of
> 18.3 frames per second. The following scenario is my interpretation of
> what all the facts mean.
> I estimate the time is Zapruder frame number 133 and the Texas School
> Book Depository shooter has the telescopic sight of Lee H. Oswald's
> rifle filled with President John F. Kennedy's head. SNAP! Nothing has
> happened. In a panic the shooter ejects the empty shell CE 543 from the
> rifle and it gets dented in the process of trying to reload too quickly.
> He mistakenly thought that the shell in the chamber when he got the
> rifle was a ready to fire bullet. He cycled a live round from the clip
> into the chamber as he goes from a standing crouch to the floor on his
> knees and starts to aim. A tree now obscures his view but he can still
> see JFK. His shot is the signal that his partner on the knoll is waiting
> on. He quickly fires.
> The fact that empty shell CE 543 was not fired during the assassination
> proves Oswald was not part of the conspiracy to kill JFK otherwise he
> would never have left an empty shell in the firing chamber. Dr. E.
> Forrest Chapman, a forensic scientist found something unexpected about
> two of the primers on the three found empty cartridges in the TSBD.
> Chapman postulated that one shell (CE 543) was not fired that day
> because it had been hit twice by a firing pin and the other shell was a
> short charge or partial dud. Dr. Josiah Thompson postulated CE 543 was
> not fired in Oswald's rifle in his book "Six Seconds In Dallas" because
> the shell was missing a firing chamber mark that was unique to Oswald's
> rifle.
> 1. 'pop'--The first shot is fired at approximately Zapruder frame number
> 180-181. This is the shot that Governor Connally hears. This is from
> Oswald's rifle and fired from the most southeastern window on the 6th
> floor of the Texas School Book Depository building with its muzzle
> inside the window. It hits JFK in the back. It lodges just under the
> skin, no more than a little finger's depth. The FBI report says it
> entered at a 45 to 60 degree angle downward and stopped. The hole in
> JFK's tailor fitting shirt is 5 3/4 inches down from the collar. Autopsy
> doctors used metal probes to determine the end of the wound. JFK looks
> with his peripheral vision towards the rear of the limousine at Z198 to
> see if someone has stabbed him in the back. JFK had chronic back pains
> and initially probably thought the pain was not from an external source.
> Mrs. Kennedy has turned upon hearing noise and is staring intently at
> JFK at Z198. I postulate a partial dud for this first shot. It is also
> probable that this bullet went through a small branch of the tree
> between the shooter and JFK. JFK assassination researcher Tom Purvis has
> tested the effects of a 6.5mm bullet going through a 1 inch live oak
> tree branch and he reports a much reduced velocity with minimum damage
> to the bullet. So we have the first bullet leaving Oswald's rifle at a
> reduced muzzle velocity and then the velocity being further reduced
> after passing through a branch of the live oak tree before hitting JFK's
> back at subsonic velocity. I postulate this bullet is CE 399. It will be
> found later in Parkland Hospital on the little boy's (Ronald Fuller)
> stretcher. It was pushed out of JFK's body during resuscitating efforts
> apparently. It became trapped in the folds of the sheet when the sheet
> was wadded up and carried in the direction of the dirty clothes area, I
> theorize. The medical orderly (David Sanders) who helped clean up Trauma
> Room No.1 most likely carried the bloody sheet and laid it down
> temporarily on the little boy's stretcher when going into the men's
> bathroom. Here CE 399 escaped the sheet and was discovered by Darrell
> Tomlinson when he pushed the stretcher against the bathroom door.
> 2. 'pop'--The second shot is from the grassy knoll and strikes JFK in
> the throat. This occurs at approximately Zapruder frame number 199-200.
> This bullet's fragments were reported by autopsy x-ray technician Jerrol
> Custer to have been seen on an x-ray that is now missing. I postulate a
> small .22 caliber hollow nose short lead bullet and subsonic velocity.
> The autopsy doctors did not know of this bullet entry during its
> procedures. After the autopsy, the autopists learned from Parkland
> Hospital's Dr. Perry about the small throat wound that was obscured by
> the tracheostomy performed to assist the President's breathing. All
> Parkland Hospital medical personnel that saw this wound thought that it
> was one of entrance. I speculate that this projectile was fired from one
> of the two barrels of a hunter's 'over and under' rifle. The shooter is
> behind the small concrete wall on the grassy knoll to JFK's right front.
> JFK unmistakably reacts to these first two shots at Z225.
> 3. 'POW'--The third shot strikes Governor Connally. It is from the Texas
> School Book Depository shooter. It enters his back and exits his chest.
> The bullet lodges itself in JBC's thigh at approximately Zapruder frame
> number 228-229. It is lost at Parkland Hospital during the efforts to
> save JBC's life. JBC thought the bullet was found by a nurse in Trauma
> Room no.2. The shot occurs as JFK is in full reaction to his wounds.
> Connally's wife, Nellie says she turned upon hearing noise and saw the
> President with his hands up towards his throat, then her husband John
> was hit. JBC reacts visibly at Zapruder frame number 237 to 238 with his
> cheeks puffing out with air from his pierced collapsing lung. Oswald's
> rifle scope was misaligned to shoot high and to the right.
> 4. 'POW'--The fourth shot hits JFK in the head at Zapruder frame number
> 312-313. It is from the grassy knoll. It deflects upon entry towards
> JFK's right. Its fragments are mostly lost to the left rear of the
> limousine causing reports of a bullet striking the street. There are
> some estimated 40 small lead particles in a path through the brain left
> from the frangible lead bullet which threw JFK back and to the left.
> There are no reports of copper traces left in the brain or on skull
> fragments and scalp tissue. All witnesses to the head wound said there
> was a large opening in the rear of JFK's head. I speculate this shot is
> from the second barrel of the 'over and under' rifle and is a .3xx
> caliber lead hunting slug possibly with a hole drilled in its nose.
> 5. 'POW'--The final shot is from the TSBD at approximately Zapruder
> frame number 322-323 and it strikes JBC in the wrist. The bullet breaks
> up upon exit and parts of it come to rest in the front seat area of the
> limousine after striking the chrome and front windshield. In my opinion
> the Zapruder film shows a reflection flare from the windshield when the
> fragment hit the chrome strip. One of the two fragments found have human
> tissue bits and paper like fibers adhering to it. I speculate the fibers
> are from JBC's missing hat. One of the found fragments was missing its
> lead center and I speculate that it escaped the limousine and hit the
> curb on Main Street causing a concrete chip or the fragment itself to
> scratch the cheek of James Tague. Another fragment of this 6.5mm bullet
> hits the manhole area on the south side of Elm and then goes into the
> grass and is lost.
> The sounds in Dealey Plaza have been 'pop...pop...POW......POW..POW' and
> corresponding echoes. Most of the ear witnesses did not consciously hear
> the initial two shots that sounded 'pop...pop'. They described the first
> shot ('pop...pop...POW') as sounding like a firecracker, then a pause
> followed by two more loud shots in quick succession.
> In my opinion, the two shooters are shown in photographs. The TSBD
> shooter is shown in Tom Dillard's close-up photo standing at the
> adjacent closed window to the open Sniper's Nest window after the shots
> surveying the chaos. A vertical shadow is on his face cast by the
> framing thus verifying that the face is real. He was also seen standing
> in the sixth floor window after the shots from across the street by
> court clerk witness Lillian Mooneyham. He used Oswald's MC rifle. The
> grassy knoll shooter is shown in Mary Moorman's photo and named "Badge
> Man" but is really much closer in my opinion than behind the stockade
> fence. He is positioned in "Black Dog Man's" location behind the low
> concrete wall. BM is BDM. He used a hunter's 'over and under' rifle (a
> 22 caliber barrel and a .3xx type caliber barrel) in my opinion. Knoll
> witness Gordon Arnold claims the knoll shooter had an unusual looking
> rifle and that the man kicked him upon stopping to take away the film
> from his camera. This man is photographed (Towner slide no. 3) running
> away after this encounter with the rifle shown in his left hand. A
> shadow cast from his arm onto the rifle verifies that the rifle is real.
> I believe both shooters have as a souvenir an empty casing that each
> thinks was the bullet that hit JFK in the head. Both shooters appear to
> be wearing police uniforms. Oswald's housekeeper Earlene Roberts says
> she saw two policemen drive up in front of the roominghouse and toot the
> horn 30 minutes after the assassination while Oswald was in his room.
twvaug...@yahoo.com
>A JFK researcher who posts here sometimes also occasionally got
dented shells when he fired his M-C. <
In firing my Carcano I found that roughly every 3rd or 4th fired and
ejected shell had a dented lip.
Todd
Jean Davison wrote:
> >"charles wallace" <ccwa...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> >news:26454-43C...@storefull-3172.bay.webtv.net...
> >Jean,
> >You apparently feel you disregard any witness you want even when they
> >work for a court of law across from the TSBD.
>
> It doesn't matter who she worked for, any witness can be wrong.
>
> But which witnesses do you "want" to "disregard," Charles? Are you
> "disregarding" Fischer and Edwards? When witnesses contradict one another,
> what else can one do but conclude that somebody must be mistaken?
>
Bud
tomnln wrote:
> Exactly why I recommend the "Original WCR w/Volumes".
>
> There are so many errors & deletions in what your link shows that I can't
> list them all here.
Are the two passages I quoted to make my point accurate?
Bud
So you say.
> You DO know there were 4 different stories from Baker don't you Bud?
I never much thought Baker was a suspect anyway. You know Oz told
investigators he stood out front with Shelley after the assassination,
don`t you? Shelley said he didn`t. Which one do you suppose was lying?
> ps. You know that Lying in a Murder case is a Felony don't you Bud?
I know you are too much of a knucklehead to be able to discern
lying, felonies, or differences in stories.
Ben Holmes
Vaughan says...
>
>Charles,
>
>>He mistakenly thought that the shell in the chamber when he got the
>rifle was a ready to fire bullet.<
>
>Your assassins out to kill JFK are so stupid that they fail to check
>and see if the rifle is laoded before they fire?
Why not? The Warren Commission managed to fill 26 volumes with information
without remembering the very first document created in murder cases... the death
certificate.
>What are their names, Curly, Larry, and Moe?
Could be... "Todd" was already taken...
>Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
You're a big silly goof. Good for a few laughs, but not much else.
Todd
Anthony Marsh
> Jean,
>
>> A JFK researcher who posts here sometimes also occasionally got
> dented shells when he fired his M-C. <
>
>
> In firing my Carcano I found that roughly every 3rd or 4th fired and
> ejected shell had a dented lip.
>
So you say. Steve Barber said that it happened on the third shot you
fired every time.
Did you investigate the mechanism which caused the dents? How many times
did your rifle jam? Remember that the rifle CBS used for its tests
jammed about one third of the tests.
Jean Davison
<twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136869184.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Jean,
>
>>A JFK researcher who posts here sometimes also occasionally got
> dented shells when he fired his M-C. <
>
>
> In firing my Carcano I found that roughly every 3rd or 4th fired and
> ejected shell had a dented lip.
>
> Todd
>
exact number. :-)
Jean
Anthony Marsh
Then why did he wait so long to fire?
Did they really want to make the conspiracy very obvious to all by
firing from several different locations?
Todd W. Vaughan
Yes, so I say. Roughly every 3rd or 4th fired and ejected shell had a
dented lip. It wans't a scientific test, it was just something I
noticed.
I don't know what casued it.
The rifle does sometimes jam, rarely, but not when ejecting a shell,
only reloading a fresh one.
Todd
aeffects
these experiments with your Carcano, they conducted under John McAdams
oversight - rumor has it you've shot with him, correct?
A few of us ex-military types with significant shooting experience
would like some insight into the art of shooting from pro's like
yourself -- especially when it comes to gas operated rifles.
tomnln
I wish I thought of THIS one.
"Ben Holmes" <bnho...@rain.org> wrote in message
news:dq0i7...@drn.newsguy.com...
tomnln
You can do your side a BIG service by Defeating us Conspiracy Beluievers in
my Chat Room.
I'm offering you a Forum to prove us wrong.
I have a Live Audio Chat Room on www.paltalk.com
Download & Use for FREE.
Once Logged on select Social Issues.
Scroll down to room called "Who Killed John F. Kennedy?"
I start between 8-9 pm e.s.t. EVERY NITE.
We can transfer files to one another Instantly.
ANY Exhibits of Evidence, ANY Testimony from WC/HSCA Volumes.
Look forward to seeing you there.
tomnln
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136908637.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136888583.0...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
*********************************************************************************
>> Bud;
>> How do you know WHICH story from Baker to believe?
>> He gave FOUR (4) different stories about the lunchroom encounter?
>
> So you say.
NO BUD;
So the Official reads.
>> You DO know there were 4 different stories from Baker don't you Bud?
>
> I never much thought Baker was a suspect anyway. You know Oz told
> investigators he stood out front with Shelley after the assassination,
> don`t you? Shelley said he didn`t. Which one do you suppose was lying?
AGAIN bud side steps the question.
>> ps. You know that Lying in a Murder case is a Felony don't you Bud?
>
> I know you are too much of a knucklehead to be able to discern
> lying, felonies, or differences in stories.
??? NUCKLEHEAD???
Your a S-L-O-W L-E-A-R-N-E-R BUD.
Your nothing more than a Felon yourself when you don't even know about the
FOUR (4) different stories given by Baker.
It Proves what an ASSHOLE you are.
It Proves what a SHITHEAD you are.
It Proves what a LIAR you are.
It Proves your brain capacity is limited to 10% from AIDS.
It Proves you know NOTHING about the case.
It Proves you can't read.
It Proves your TOTal Ignorance of the Facts.
FINALLY;
It shows how STUPID you are to continue to trade insults with me.
I see you as "The Spokesman" for ALL lone nutters.
It's Assholes like You that PROVE our case.
To put you ALL in one basket....... Your ALL Felon Supporters.
Bud
Can you cite four contradictory stories told by Baker from the
official record?
> >> You DO know there were 4 different stories from Baker don't you Bud?
> >
> > I never much thought Baker was a suspect anyway. You know Oz told
> > investigators he stood out front with Shelley after the assassination,
> > don`t you? Shelley said he didn`t. Which one do you suppose was lying?
>
> AGAIN bud side steps the question.
Just trying to get you untracked from irrelevancies. It wasn`t
Baker`s rifle found on the sixth floor. Try and focus on all the lies
Oz told in the interrogations which he would
have no reason to tell if he had been innocent. Focus, Tom, I know you
can`t be the one-dimensional clown you come across as in your posts,
you most be capable of some original thought..
> >> ps. You know that Lying in a Murder case is a Felony don't you Bud?
> >
> > I know you are too much of a knucklehead to be able to discern
> > lying, felonies, or differences in stories.
>
> ??? NUCKLEHEAD???
With a "k".
> Your a S-L-O-W L-E-A-R-N-E-R BUD.
You`re a B-A-D S-P-E-L-L-E-R TOM. (Yah, that was the pot calling
the kettle black).
> Your nothing more than a Felon yourself when you don't even know about the
> FOUR (4) different stories given by Baker.
>
> It Proves what an ASSHOLE you are.
> It Proves what a SHITHEAD you are.
> It Proves what a LIAR you are.
> It Proves your brain capacity is limited to 10% from AIDS.
> It Proves you know NOTHING about the case.
> It Proves you can't read.
> It Proves your TOTal Ignorance of the Facts.
>
> FINALLY;
> It shows how STUPID you are to continue to trade insults with me.
>
> I see you as "The Spokesman" for ALL lone nutters.
Why start being right about something now?
> It's Assholes like You that PROVE our case.
>
> To put you ALL in one basket.......
Did you weave it yourself?
> Your ALL Felon Supporters.
Better than being athletic supporters.
Bud
tomnln wrote:
> How come your family tree has NO Branches on it? (incest)
Your family tree has tires hanging from it for your relatives to
play on. (monkeys)
tomnln
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136929634....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
*****************************************************************************
> Better than being athletic supporters.
BUD;
You don't even measure up to whats left behind in an "Athletic Supporter".
REPEAT;
Your a Felon Supporter.
Your own family would have Hung you years ago but, there are NO branches on
your family tree.
Are you admitting that you do NOT know of Bakers 4 different stories???
*****************************************************************************
tomnln
Don't you know that even monkeys are 16 notches ABOVE "Incest
Practitioners".
Ask the nurses at "The Home" to point out the 4 stories to you.
ALL "Official Stories".
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136931005.7...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ben Holmes
>
>In article <1136840065.5...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Todd W.
>Vaughan says...
>>
>>Charles,
>>
>>>He mistakenly thought that the shell in the chamber when he got the
>>rifle was a ready to fire bullet.<
>>
>>Your assassins out to kill JFK are so stupid that they fail to check
>>and see if the rifle is laoded before they fire?
>
>
>Why not? The Warren Commission managed to fill 26 volumes with information
>without remembering the very first document created in murder cases... the death
>certificate.
Wonder why Todd didn't attempt to explain this???
Could it be that this isn't covered in the LNT'ers manual?
>>What are their names, Curly, Larry, and Moe?
>
>
>Could be... "Todd" was already taken...
>
>
>>Todd
In article <1136908637.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Todd W.
Vaughan says...
>Ben,
>
>You're a big silly goof. Good for a few laughs, but not much else.
>
>Todd
You might be surprised at *what* the lurkers are laughing at, Toddy.
aeffects
eyewitnesses are no longer necessary in court cases? Your going to make
legal history here, Tony!
I suspect there have been many, MANY more convictions for a wide
variety of felonies based on eye witness testimony than NOT....
aeffects
true..... or maybe McAdams stepped on the cartridges, you do shoot with
him, right? ....come on man roflmfao
tomnln
Is the serial number on your Carcano #2766 just like John Lattimer's???
<twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136869184.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
It seems that Steve was a little confused about the details. I am
wondering if you remember the sequence of when it happened? Did you always
start with a full clip or did this almost always happen on the last bullet
in the clip?
tomnln
That should nullify any excuses to protect the WCR.
"aeffects" <aeff...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136871156.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bud
Anthony Marsh
Impossible. The dent can not be caused that way. It happens when the
empty cartridge gets jammed back into the rifle by mistake.
Todd W. Vaughan
Yep, it was about your speed.
Keep your day job.
Todd
Todd W. Vaughan
In my case I can assure you that it was not happening on any noticible
jamming.
Todd
Anthony Marsh
> can you and your infinate wisdom quote and cite studies that
> eyewitnesses are no longer necessary in court cases? Your going to make
> legal history here, Tony!
>
There have been several shows on TV, most about forensic evidence where
there were absolutely no witnesses to a murder and yet they proved who
the murderer was with forensics evidence. See some of Dr. Henry Lee's
cases. Or the woodchipper case.
tomnln
1. Destroying Oswald’s note to Dallas FBI Office.
2. Destroying Hosty’s name, address, phone number
And license plate number from Oswald’s notebook.
3 . Destroying Walker back yard photo.
4. Changing Walker bullet from "Steel-Jacketed"
to
Copper Jacketed .
5. Changing transcript of Oswald's radio debate.
6. Lying when claiming Paper for gun bag matched
TSBD paper.
6. Lying by stating Oswald had NO connection to
CIA.
7. Lying about Oswald going to Mexico City.
8. Washing out Limo at Parkland Hospital.
Thus Destroying Evidence.
9. Stealing body from Dallas jurisdiction under
Gun Point.
10. Stealing Limo from Dallas Jurisdiction.
11. Destroying part 3 of P O Box Rental Application.
12. Showed LHO 133A BEFORE it was Found. WCR App XI
13. Dry Cleaning/Pressing JBC’s Clothing.
14. Switch Entrance/Exit wounds on JBC’s Wrist wound.
etc. etc. etc.
Todd W. Vaughan
The post I was replying to was yours direclty above my reply.
You are too much!
Todd
tomnln
Indicating that you condone Felons.
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1137013531....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Ben Holmes
>
>aeffects wrote:
>> can you and your infinate wisdom quote and cite studies that
>> eyewitnesses are no longer necessary in court cases? Your going to make
>> legal history here, Tony!
>>
>
>There have been several shows on TV, most about forensic evidence where
>there were absolutely no witnesses to a murder and yet they proved who
>the murderer was with forensics evidence. See some of Dr. Henry Lee's
>cases. Or the woodchipper case.
Tony once again proves his illiteracy...
Todd W. Vaughan
It wasn't a controlled experiment, it was just something I noticed. I
was very surprised.
I haven't fire the rifle since.
I suppose I should do a controlled test sometime to answer your
questions, which I think are good ones.
Don't mind the closed minded idiot here who questioned my post on this.
What I posted is the truth.
Todd
tomnln
What part of the Official Record is that web site from???
"Bud" <sirs...@fast.net> wrote in message
news:1136977292....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Anthony Marsh
Some of which have been overturned by DNA evidence thanks to the
Innocence Project.
Dr. Chad Zimmerman
science.
Chad
<twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136869184.4...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Jean,
>
>>A JFK researcher who posts here sometimes also occasionally got
> dented shells when he fired his M-C. <
>
>
> In firing my Carcano I found that roughly every 3rd or 4th fired and
> ejected shell had a dented lip.
>
Dr. Chad Zimmerman
The ejector pin is seated on the bottom left. When the shell is ejected,
it has rearward momentum and a right hand ejection. This causes the shell
to hit the bolt brake, denting the casing where it hits the on the brake.
I videotaped this and it is on my site.
Chad
"Todd W. Vaughan" <twvaug...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1136916280....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Tony,
>
> Yes, so I say. Roughly every 3rd or 4th fired and ejected shell had a
> dented lip. It wans't a scientific test, it was just something I
> noticed.
>
aeffects
findings - pretty simple, actually. By-the-way, are YOU that expert --
I thought I heard your a D.O., which is fine, for X-Rays and wounds --
but rifles and ammunition....?
Anthony Marsh
> Todd,
>
> The ejector pin is seated on the bottom left. When the shell is ejected,
> it has rearward momentum and a right hand ejection. This causes the shell
> to hit the bolt brake, denting the casing where it hits the on the brake.
> I videotaped this and it is on my site.
>
Great, then explain why it doesn't happen every single time and why it
tends to happen more frequently when you try to reload very rapidly.
Anthony Marsh
> Actually, I had 10 out of 12 dent. Not too tough. Nor is it rocket
> science.
>
On purpose? Or during normal test firings? And why is your result
different from Todd's? Why did the CBS tests have their rifle jam about
1/3 of the time?
Is a rifle which has a history of jamming a good choice for a political
assassination? BTW, there have been several professional assassinations
where the weapon jammed. Petit-Clamart. Mexico.
Todd W. Vaughan
You wrote:
>Is the serial number on your Carcano #2766 just like John Lattimer's??? <
No it is not.
Todd
Bud
aeffects wrote:
> Great, get a certified expert to state same -- have him post his
> findings - pretty simple, actually. By-the-way, are YOU that expert --
> I thought I heard your a D.O., which is fine, for X-Rays and wounds --
> but rifles and ammunition....?
<snicker> Why would you need to be an expert? You only need to have
an M-C, and observe what happens to shells when you fire rapidly, like
Chad did. By what means did you kooks establish that the dented shell
proves it couldn`t have been fired?
Bud
Anthony Marsh wrote:
> Dr. Chad Zimmerman wrote:
> > Actually, I had 10 out of 12 dent. Not too tough. Nor is it rocket
> > science.
> >
>
> On purpose? Or during normal test firings? And why is your result
> different from Todd's? Why did the CBS tests have their rifle jam about
> 1/3 of the time?
> Is a rifle which has a history of jamming a good choice for a political
> assassination?
Would Oswald have gotten better results with a better rifle?
aeffects
things. Watching one fired, rounds being extracted, what's going on in
the receiver, etc, etc.... requires a little expertise, expertise I
don't believe Dr. Chad has, nor you for that matter... With that type
of understanding, why on earth would those few here that DO have a
modicum of understanding regarding firearms and the use of same -- buy
into Dr. Chad's "theory" about how rounds are "dented"
-- thus a 'expert'
Bud
It quite simple. Kooks were claiming the dented shell meant the
shell couldn`t have been fired. Chad showed that a dented shell is
quite a common occurance when ejecting a spent shell from an M-C. If
you can`t follow this, I doubt an expert will be able to help you.
Bud
Anthony Marsh wrote:
> Dr. Chad Zimmerman wrote:
> > Todd,
> >
> > The ejector pin is seated on the bottom left. When the shell is ejected,
> > it has rearward momentum and a right hand ejection. This causes the shell
> > to hit the bolt brake, denting the casing where it hits the on the brake.
> > I videotaped this and it is on my site.
> >
>
> Great, then explain why it doesn't happen every single time and why it
> tends to happen more frequently when you try to reload very rapidly.
Why? That shells are commonly dented upon ejection by that make of
rifle and that dented shells do not speak to the issue of whether that
shell could have been fired is the only real issues pertaining to this
case. As usual, kooks looked at evidence, and drew crackpot assumptions.
As usual, an LNT had to correct them. Doesn`t matter, they can discern
something fishy in hundreds of issues, losing one here and there does no
harm to the concept of conspiracy.
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> Dr. Chad Zimmerman wrote:
>>> Actually, I had 10 out of 12 dent. Not too tough. Nor is it rocket
>>> science.
>>>
>> On purpose? Or during normal test firings? And why is your result
>> different from Todd's? Why did the CBS tests have their rifle jam about
>> 1/3 of the time?
>> Is a rifle which has a history of jamming a good choice for a political
>> assassination?
>
> Would Oswald have gotten better results with a better rifle?
>
Silly question. But the fact that Oswald's rifle jammed caused the
grassy knoll gunman to take the insurance shot, thus revealing the
conspiracy.
rob.s...@gmail.com
Anthony Marsh
> Anthony Marsh wrote:
>> Dr. Chad Zimmerman wrote:
>>> Todd,
>>>
>>> The ejector pin is seated on the bottom left. When the shell is ejected,
>>> it has rearward momentum and a right hand ejection. This causes the shell
>>> to hit the bolt brake, denting the casing where it hits the on the brake.
>>> I videotaped this and it is on my site.
>>>
>> Great, then explain why it doesn't happen every single time and why it
>> tends to happen more frequently when you try to reload very rapidly.
>
> Why? That shells are commonly dented upon ejection by that make of
> rifle and that dented shells do not speak to the issue of whether that
Yes, commonly, about one-third of the time.
> shell could have been fired is the only real issues pertaining to this
> case. As usual, kooks looked at evidence, and drew crackpot assumptions.
> As usual, an LNT had to correct them. Doesn`t matter, they can discern
> something fishy in hundreds of issues, losing one here and there does no
> harm to the concept of conspiracy.
As usual, it took a conspiracy believer like me to correct them longer
before the LNer's ever heard of it.