Re: ANOTHER MOVIE FILMED WITH ZAPRUDER'S CAMERA EXISTS (IT WAS SHOT ON MAY 24, 1964)
David Von Pein
An interesting topic came up at "The Education Forum" recently,
regarding the fact that the FBI actually took a test film with Abraham
Zapruder's Bell & Howell camera during the WC/FBI/SS re-enactment of
the assassination in Dealey Plaza on May 24, 1964.
This "test" film utilizing Mr. Zapruder's very own camera apparently
still exists and is currently being stored at the National Archives
(along with test films that were also made on 5/24/64 with Orville
Nix's camera and Marie Muchmore's camera).
Duncan MacRae said this in a thread-starting post at The Education
Forum on January 1, 2010:
"The May 1964 FBI/Secret Service re-enactment in Dallas included
a test film shot with the Zapruder camera. The film is at the National
Archives waiting for someone to have it transfered to video. Perhaps
if the alterationists investigated this further, they could find out
information Re: the sprocket hole controversy and other debatable
issues. It puzzles me why they have never tried to gain access to this
avenue of research to prove their points, or have they?
Test films shot with the Nix and Muchmore cameras are also at the
National Archives. This information was provided by Gary Mack." --
Duncan MacRae; 01/01/10
Link to Education Forum thread:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?s=0774b70a681ed8b3e4a628c62417863e&showtopic=15183
On January 3, 2010, conspiracy theorist David S. Lifton added the
following comments to the above-linked Education Forum discussion:
"I looked up [Lyndal] Shaneyfelt's testimony about the May, 1964
reconstruction, hopeful that I would find confirmation on the
existence of such a test film. According to Shaneyfelt, he indeed took
pictures from the Zapruder pedestal, frame by frame, as he
photographed the re-enactment. But he did not--I repeat, did NOT--use
Zapruder's camera. (And, after all, why should he have? Think about
it: the hypothesis being tested was whether Oswald had a clear line of
sight from the window; NOT whether the Zapruder camera was the source
of the Z frames that are in evidence).
"Quoting from Shaneyfelt's testimony, at page 148 of Volume 5 of
the Warren Commission: "The picture in the upper right is a photograph
that I made with a speed graphic camera from Zapruder's position of
the car reestablished in that position."
"According to Duncan MacRae's post, he has been informed by
Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack that such a film--taken in
Zapruder's camera-- exists at NARA. I have no way of knowing whether
or not that is true. In addition, there is the question of whether any
such test film was actually exposed at full telephoto.
"If all this is indeed the case--i.e., if there was indeed
motion picture footage from Zapruder's position, exposed with
Zapruder's camera and exposed with the setting at full telephoto--then
I would certainly like to know about it. Further, I would like to then
examine the left margin and do a careful comparison between what those
frames show and the frames from the so-called "camera original"
Zapruder film.
"From my reading of Shaneyfelt's testimony, the Zapruder camera
was not used during the May, 1964 re-enactment. Rather, an ordinary
speed graphic camera was utilized. Now it is entirely possible, I
suppose, that Gary Mack has better information--and if so, perhaps he
could post it on this forum. If such footage exists, using Zapruder's
Bell and Howell camera, and exposed at full telephoto, I'd certainly
like to obtain a contact print, showing the entire left margin--so
that it can be compared with the Zapruder frames in evidence.
"Postscript: If such a film exists, then what is needed is not a
video transfer, but a full frame contact print. That would be the best
way to examine the intersprocket area--it seems to me. But. . first
things first: did the Secret Service really shoot a test film, with
Zapruder's camera, at full telephoto? And is such a film in the JFK
Records Collection?"
[End Lifton quotes.]
----------------
But had Mr. Lifton taken a look at some more of Lyndal Shaneyfelt's
Warren Commission testimony, he would have been able to confirm for
himself the fact that Zapruder's camera WAS, in fact, used to create a
test film FROM ZAPRUDER'S POSITION ON TOP OF THE PEDESTAL. We find
that confirmation in Shaneyfelt's testimony at 5H162:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh5/html/WC_Vol5_0086b.htm
Here's the pertinent excerpt from page 162 of WC volume 5:
ARLEN SPECTER -- "What motion pictures, if any, were taken during the
reenactment?"
LYNDAL L. SHANEYFELT -- "During the reenactment the black-and-white
photographs were made from Zapruder's position with a Speedgraphic
camera and we also took motion pictures with Mr. Zapruder's camera
from Zapruder's position with the car in the fixed locations as they
were established with the car just stationary in those locations.
After establishing all those points and making these film records of
it, we then had the car proceed along that Elm Street route at
approximately 11 miles per hour, and filmed it with Mr. Zapruder's
camera loaded with color film from Mr. Zapruder's position and
simultaneously photographed it with Mr. Nix's camera from Mr. Nix's
position, and Mrs. Muchmore's camera from Mrs. Muchmore's position,
and this was done twice."
---------------------
For several years now, I've had in my possession a copy of a few
portions of the 5/24/64 re-enactment film (linked below). The picture
quality isn't too great, but it's a re-creation film that definitely
shows motion-picture sequences taken from the three locations in
Dealey Plaza where Abe Zapruder, Orville Nix, and Marie Muchmore took
their films.
Now, whether this exact re-enactment film linked below contains
footage taken with the Zapruder, Nix, and Muchmore cameras, I cannot
say for certain. But I'd wager to say it is:
http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2010/01/jfk-assassination-reenactment-film.html
---------------------
aeffects
> An interesting topic came up at "The Education Forum" recently,
> regarding the fact that the FBI actually took a test film with Abraham
> Zapruder's Bell & Howell camera during the WC/FBI/SS re-enactment of
> the assassination in Dealey Plaza on May 24, 1964.
>
> This "test" film utilizing Mr. Zapruder's very own camera apparently
> still exists and is currently being stored at the National Archives
> (along with test films that were also made on 5/24/64 with Orville
> Nix's camera and Marie Muchmore's camera).
>
> Duncan MacRae said this in a thread-starting post at The Education
> Forum on January 1, 2010:
>
> "The May 1964 FBI/Secret Service re-enactment in Dallas included
> a test film shot with the Zapruder camera. The film is at the National
> Archives waiting for someone to have it transfered to video. Perhaps
> if the alterationists investigated this further, they could find out
> information Re: the sprocket hole controversy and other debatable
> issues. It puzzles me why they have never tried to gain access to this
> avenue of research to prove their points, or have they?
> Test films shot with the Nix and Muchmore cameras are also at the
> National Archives. This information was provided by Gary Mack." --
> Duncan MacRae; 01/01/10
>
how much money do you have, troll? And, who cares, if it exists,
deliver it! Then we'll talk -- till then, back to your blog peanut
gallery.... ROTFLMFAO
<snip the nutter advertising>
Gil Jesus
> how much money do you have, troll? And, who cares, if it exists,
> deliver it! Then we'll talk -- till then, back to your blog peanut
> gallery.... ROTFLMFAO
It figures that the nutcase would make an issue of a video that was
NOT shot on the day of the assassination.
The liars made a re-enactment video with Zapruder's camera........WOW.
Now I'm convinced that Oswald was guilty........
ROFLMAO
David Von Pein
Naturally, per CTers, everybody under the (WC) sun is a "liar".
Retards...all.
aeffects
> Naturally, per CTers, everybody under the (WC) sun is a "liar".
>
> Retards...all.
your lone nut troll fear, its palpable. ROTFLMFAO
drummist1965
Everything that comes from mouth regarding the JFK assassination is
equivalent to someone passing gas, Healy.
aeffects
when you learn how to play get back to me, till then shithead, the
back of the bus with you. Your dismissed. ROTFLMFAO
drummist1965
P.U. Healy. Stop opening your mouth. I was in error. It's
whenever you open your mouth in general that it's the equivalent of
someone passing gas! PEEEEEE--UUUUUUUUUU!
drummist1965
That's not the point, you scrawny, idiotic, little runt. The point
is that there are nutcases out there, ( similar to you for example)
who actually believe that the Z film is a "fake". The fact that this
was performed by the FBI would enable others to see what Zapruder's
film was mechanically capable of.
And speaking of "nutcases"... why did you post a thread about
"Nutcases", then, disappear when someone provided a film showing a man
being shot through the head, to prove that a human body is quite
capable of bolting towards the shooter. You dared someone to do so,
then, when they do, you run and hide. You are one heck of a nutcase,
Gil!
aeffects
the shithead loves me..... LMFAO!
aeffects
> On Jan 3, 12:01 pm, Gil Jesus <gjjm...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 3, 11:55 am, aeffects <aeffect...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > how much money do you have, troll? And, who cares, if it exists,
> > > deliver it! Then we'll talk -- till then, back to your blog peanut
> > > gallery.... ROTFLMFAO
>
> > It figures that the nutcase would make an issue of a video that was
> > NOT shot on the day of the assassination.
>
> > The liars made a re-enactment video with Zapruder's camera........WOW.
>
> > Now I'm convinced that Oswald was guilty........
>
> > ROFLMAO
>
> That's not the point, you scrawny, idiotic, little runt. The point
> is that there are nutcases out there, ( similar to you for example)
> who actually believe that the Z film is a "fake". The fact that this
> was performed by the FBI would enable others to see what Zapruder's
> film was mechanically capable of.
my but the over-weight, redheaded, non-drumming fuck is getting a bit
testy these days ... was it something I had published or perhaps mom
threw your sorry ass out of the house, FINALLY?
<snip the simpleton lone nut-troll nonsense>
David Von Pein
Here's an interesting e-mail conversation I had with Gary Mack on
January 8th, 2010:
======================================================
Subject: Yet ANOTHER camera original Zapruder film
Date: 1/8/2010 2:44:15 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Gary Mack
To: David Von Pein
-------------------------
Hello Dave,
I am continually astonished at how little the alterationists know
about the Zapruder film and its history. Now, led by Doug Horne and
others, they are whining about needing a test film from the Zapruder
camera to see if its images have the same camera artifacts as the
assassination film. Their “thinking” is that the test film won’t
match and that will prove the original film is a fake. But many such
original reels exist and most, if not all, have been available at the
National Archives for decades!
The alterationists didn’t know, until I told Duncan MacRae, that the
Zapruder camera was used by the FBI for re-creations in Dealey Plaza
on May 23-24, 1964, and that the resulting film reels are at NARA II
in College Park, MD. The films presumably contain similar
intersprocket images and artifacts as those in the assassination
film. (The extremely poor quality You Tube version of one of the
reels is not an accurate representation of its image quality.)
How could the alterationists not know that? The man the FBI assigned
to investigate and analyze the assassination films, Lyndal Shaneyfelt,
testified that he used the original Zapruder, Orville Nix and Marie
Muchmore cameras. There are news films and photographs showing those
cameras sitting atop the Zapruder pedestal the day of the test!
Nor, apparently, do the alterationists know about other test reels
shot with the Zapruder camera within days and years of the
assassination. As noted in The Sixth Floor Museum’s Zapruder
chronology [linked below:]
(http://jfk.org/go/collections/about/zapruder-film-chronology),
the FBI first borrowed Zapruder’s camera on December 4, 1963, for
testing. “On December 20, the bureau concluded, ‘This camera when
operated at normal ‘run’ speed operates at 18.3 frames per second.’
This ‘clock’ was later used to determine the timing of specific events
as seen in the film.”
The timing test, which was duplicated by Bell & Howell in December
1966, involved loading the camera and filming a clock with an accurate
second hand, then counting the number of frames that were exposed over
specific times. Barring any peculiarity with the lighting on the
clocks, all such test reels will certainly reveal the same
intersprocket images and artifacts as Mr. Zapruder’s famous film.
What all this means is that when Zapruder’s camera was still in the
same condition as the day of the assassination, and when Kodachrome II
film and processing were easily available, government and private
company investigations of the operating characteristics yielded
multiple test reels that can be studied and measured.
There was no need in 1996 for the ARRB to borrow Zapruder’s camera for
use in Dallas, nor was there a need in 2000 for Rollie Zavada to use
it for his follow-up study of the original film. There was no need
because test films already existed and they are available for
examination in one form or another.
And yet, the alterationists remain completely ignorant of their
existence. Amazing!
Gary Mack
======================================================
Subject: Re: Yet ANOTHER camera original Zapruder film
Date: 1/8/2010 10:19:39 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: David Von Pein
To: Gary Mack
-------------------------
Gary,
Thanks--yet again--for another detailed e-mail message. Your knowledge
regarding various aspects of the JFK assassination continues to
astound me.
But, like you said, it's rather remarkable that the "alterationists"
who think the Zapruder Film is a fake and a fraud wouldn't have taken
the time to find out about all of the various test films that were
shot with Abraham Zapruder's Bell & Howell camera.
And equally as remarkable is something that occurred just this week
(on January 3, 2010) when conspiracy theorist extraordinaire David
Lifton posted a message at John Simkin's Education Forum, with Lifton
saying he was not able to find any reference at all to the test films
shot with Zapruder's camera when he (Lifton) looked up Lyndal
Shaneyfelt's Warren Commission testimony. And Lifton was SPECIFICALLY
SEARCHING for references to Zapruder's camera when he was going
through Shaneyfelt's testimony, too!
It wasn't until I posted a follow-up message [linked below] on Duncan
MacRae's forum regarding Zapruder's camera positively being used by
Shaneyfelt for test films, which is a message that Duncan was nice
enough to paste into a thread at the Education Forum, that Lifton
finally was able to confirm for himself that Zapruder's camera was, in
fact, utilized for test films in Dealey Plaza in May 1964.
And it took me less than 30 seconds of searching time to find that
reference to the Zapruder test films in Shaneyfelt's testimony (at
5H162), too. (Perhaps Mr. Lifton has never heard of "Internet word
search tools" before.) ~shrug~
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspiracy.jfk/msg/fe52c1acfc52f064
Anyway, Gary, thanks again for the e-mail. I always appreciate and
benefit from the information you pass along.
Regards,
David Von Pein
http://DVP-Potpourri.blogspot.com/2009/12/zapruder.html
http://DavidVonPein.blogspot.com
======================================================
Chuck Schuyler
Healy from Dealey, you're the last person anyone interested in the
truth would talk with about anything related
to the JFK assassination.
Why don't you run along and work on your "Fake Zapruder" theory?
(Moron.)
aeffects
<snip the lone nut lunacy>
are we to care what the hell you two talk about, you composite wet
dish rag you. Your here to be made a mockery of, don't forget that,
you phony troll-weasel, you!