How Islam lost its way.
S D Rodrian
news:<gnvY7.20115$8e2.9...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com>...
It is much more accurate to say that the Muslims STOLE
the scientific databases of the peoples they conquered
(since they originally were in reality, mostly illiterate
Arab nomads) and then began to discover what they had stolen
(this "age of discovery" is basically "The Muslim Golden Age").
But this "age" was quickly followed by a realization of
what those discoveries meant in terms of the consequences
to Islam: The death of Islam, in short, because "knowledge
is the death of superstition." That is what the history
you talk about here boils down to: Islam is not a religion
concerned with spiritual matters but one concerned with
material ones (things of the flesh), with political ones.
This is a fundamental misinterpretation of Islam made by
the casual Christian onlooker: Jesus was a religious preacher
while Mohammed was a temporal commander-in-chief (this is
why Christians debate the nature of supernatural "realities"
while Muslims debate the fundamentals of military conquest),
and their consequences to men.
Whosoever does not understand this understands nothing of
the distinction between the Christian and the Muslim worlds.
In the Western/Christian world (and elsewhere than in the
Islamic world, in fact)... it was possible to tolerate science
as "enlightening men on the nature of God." While in the Islamic
world Mohammed put absolutely ALL knowledge and wisdom in the
Koran. One may question the nature and purpose of God, but one
does not question one's general.
The result is that while a Christian Scholar is a kind of
scientist seeking to understand the "spiritual nature" of the
universe, an Islamic Scholar is a kind of Temporal Authority
on how the supreme commander himself (Mohammed) lived his life
(the rules of his army as set down in the general's book of
military discipline, or the Koran)... as he is asked by the
ordinary soldier seeking to conform to military discipline to
issue "legal pronouncements" (edicts, or fatwas) on whether
this or that behavior conforms to how Mohammed behaved--If it
does, then it's legal military behavior... and if it's something
Mohammed never did or never would have done, then it's illegal
military behavior. Of course this blind military discipline is
impractical in most ordinary life, and you can see very pious
Muslims flying airplanes (into tall buildings et al) when that
is something Mohammed might/might never have done... riding
bicycles no less than smoking cigars, etc. All of it leading
to the moral corruption of Muslims, since OF CLEAR NECESSITY
it makes outrageous hypocrites of them all. And, sure'nough: it
is "practically" impossible to find "honest" Muslim dealers.
[In 1993 the supreme religious authority of Saudi Arabia, Sheik
Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz, issued an edict, or fatwa, declaring that
"the world is flat!" since Mohammed never knew otherwise: Guess ya
just can't have some rank recruit proving wiser than his general.]
The Koran sanctions Muslims signing "agreements of convenience"
with non-Muslims... which then can be abrogated when it's more
convenient for the "good" Muslim to stab the non-Muslim in the
back--And, of course, the Koran also advises the Muslim to please
make sure the non-Muslim does not study the Koran, given that non-
Muslims would never "understand" it.) Frankly, I love it. It's so
endearingly inhuman!... like most matters human. Sort of like
watching a two-year-old committing a crime in front of your eyes
which it is so charmingly certain no one can possibly ever detect.
Unfortunately the Western world is teeming with two-year olds in
positions of power, Bush & Powell in the US, and others elsewhere.
[But this, immoral and unethical as it is, is absolutely practical
in war: There are no rules in war except you win by any/all means.
Such ruthless behavior would be Jesus's undoing; but it's the making
of every great and successful general, Mohammed included.]
But Islamic self-destructions do create their own beneficial side
effects, in that they hamper Muslims' scientific education (along
with all education for Muslims that is not religiously centered).
And that limits the damage Muslims can inflict on non-Muslims (as
the Koran, coming from the hand of a military commander calls upon
all "good" Muslim soldiers to do, obviously--this campaign against
non-Muslims, or so-called Jihad is the Koran's raison de ete)...
unless non-Muslims themselves give them the means to do such damage,
as with Pakistan's nuclear program (by way of China, the Europeans
and Americans). It all goes to explain why Muslims treat women like
dogs (Mohammed did), and why Muslims cannot accept living under a
secular democracy (Mohammed did not). The curious thing is how
Mohammed cemented his right to command by using religion (amazingly
asture of him, actually). It's rather unfortunate of course for
Muslims who forever after were given Mohammed's form of living,
ruled by this intolerant religious military discipline... but that's
not Mohammed's problem, now is it?
But for us it is the heights of ignorance to believe ANY Muslim
people which is given the right to vote on what sort of state
they want to live in will/can vote for a secular democracy--By
definition... it would mean they (that people) had ceased to be
Muslim, or, they would needs vote to cease being Muslims--which
is something that simply cannot/will never happen (the only so-
called "Islamic democracies" Muslims will ever live in will be
those imposed upon them by dictators benevolent or horrific).
It's just that there really is no such thing as "having a little
democracy" ... any more than "being a little pregnant." So ALL
"democracies" in ALL Muslim countries are SHAMS, pure and simple.
Kind of like the one in "The People's Democracy of China." Yeah.
Some Westernized idiots gave the Pakistani people democracy and
they almost voted themselves into an Islamic Republic before lesser
idiots stepped in at the last minute (same with Algiers, and several
other Islamic countries, most prominent of all Turkey and Egypt).
Wait until you see what happens in Jordan if the Westernized idiots
there actually succeed in giving that country a true democratic vote.
Unfortunately there were no lesser idiots in Iran (or, rather, they
were all chased out with the Sha and that mob). The other Muslim
countries, Saudi Arabia and the rest, have had a centuries-old
tradition of secular dictators (self-styled kings and princes), and
would never dream of such foolishnesses as Western "democracies"
(they know their folk, frankly). And yet there are horrific morons
in the West agitating for "more openness" and "more democracy" in
Islamic countries! My dear Lord: Whatchagonnado!
Even two-year-olds like Powell thought it best to leave Saddam
Hussein in power in Iraq, rather than bring in the Unknown Monster
(or, rather... let loose upon Iraq The Un-named Monster of old).
S D Rodrian
poems.sdrodrian.com
physics.sdrodrian.com
re:
> Here is a article worth reading that appeared in last Sunday's Washington
> Post:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37263-2001Dec28.html
>
> Risking the copyright, this part is worth quoting. I worry that The United
> States is headed down the exact same path, led by the creationists:
> ======================================================
> "Though genuine scientific achievement is rare in the contemporary Muslim
> world, pseudo-science is in generous supply. A former chairman of my
> department has calculated the speed of heaven: He maintains it is receding
> from Earth at one centimeter per second less than the speed of light. His
> ingenious method relies upon a verse inthe Islamic holy book, which says
> that worship on the night on whichthe book was revealed is worth a thousand
> nights of ordinary worship. He states that this amounts to a time-dilation
> factor of 1,000, which he puts into a formulaof Einstein's theory of special
> relativity.
>
> "A more public example: One of two Pakistani nuclear engineers recently
> arrested on suspicion of passing nuclear secrets to the Taliban had earlier
> proposed to solve Pakistan's energy problems by harnessing the power of
> genies. He relied on the Islamic belief that God created man from clay, and
> angels and genies from fire; so this highly placed engineer proposed to
> capture the genies and extract their energy.
>
> "Today's sorry situation contrasts starkly with the Islam of yesterday.
> Between the 9th and 13th centuries -- the Golden Age of Islam -- the only
> people doing decent work in science, philosophy or medicine were Muslims.
> Muslims not only preserved ancient learning, they also made substantial
> innovations. The loss of this tradition has proven tragic for Muslim
> peoples.
>
> "Science flourished in the Golden Age of Islam because of a strong
> rationalist and liberal tradition, carried on by a group of Muslim thinkers
> known as the Mutazilites.
>
> "But in the 12th century, Muslim orthodoxy reawakened, spearheaded by the
> Arab cleric Imam Al-Ghazali. Al-Ghazali championed revelation over reason,
> predestination over free will. He damned mathematics as being against Islam,
> an intoxicant of the mind that weakened faith.
>
> "Caught in the viselike grip of orthodoxy, Islam choked. No longer would
> Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars gather and work together in the royal
> courts. It was the end of tolerance, intellect and science in the Muslim
> world. The last great Muslim thinker, Abd-al Rahman Ibn Khaldun, belonged to
> the 14th century.
>
> "Meanwhile, the rest of the world moved on. The Renaissance brought an
> explosion of scientific inquiry in the West. This owed much totranslations
> of Greek works carried out by Arabs and other Muslim contributions, but they
> were to matter little. Mercantile capitalism and technological progress
> drove Western countries -- in ways that were often brutal and at times
> genocidal -- to rapidly colonize the Muslim world from Indonesia to Morocco.
> It soon became clear, at least to some of the Muslim elites, that they were
> paying a heavy price for not possessing the analytical tools of modern
> science and the social and political values of modern culture -- the real
> source of power of their colonizers."
S D Rodrian
news:<5dc0f156.02011...@posting.google.com>...
> s...@sdrodrian.com (S D Rodrian) wrote in message
news:<bf7b874e.02010...@posting.google.com>...
> > It is much more accurate to say that the Muslims STOLE
> > the scientific databases of the peoples they conquered
> > (since they originally were in reality, mostly illiterate
> > Arab nomads)
>
> TYPICAL HINDU LIES.
>
> Read some history, of course, from reliable source.
Sir: I say to thee: You read history. And you don't even
have to read history by non-muslims, because many Muslim
historians throughout history have reveled in retelling
of the great and monstrous thefts, betrayals, and genocides
committed by their "noble" Muslim patrons.
> Get this through your head:
Ah, now I see where you've gone wrong: Sir, that is NOT
the way to learn... one needs to get things INTO one's
head (not in one ear and out the other!). Now we all know
why it's so darn difficult for Muslims to understand any
of the advancements of modern Western civilization!...
except what they have the money to buy, of course.
> Arabs had contributed more than you
> Hindi did;
Sorry, unlike George Harrison, I'm neither Hindu
nor associated with any other of the world's major
or minor organized superstitions/organs for the promotion
of human Ignorance... et al
> all you contributed was your stupid caste system and
> senseless panthesism.
But now.... I don't know if you are Muslim, but if you
ARE you are a very sinful Muslim, because using the Internet
is against everything Islam stands for: Mohammed (maySatanbe
fryinghiseggsnow) never used the Internet and your use
of the Web and of computers is an affront to Mohammed
(maySatanbe fryinghiseggsnow) and to Allah. Your brush
against informed and educated people will invariably
lead you to corruption and sin... and you may even become
educated yourself, leave Islam, and be shot like a dog
by your fellow Muslims for desertion in the face of Reason
or some such.
Moreover... here you will need to deal with heathens and
pagans like me who revel in insulting Islam and Allah and
who will also occasionally point out that Mohammed
(maySatanbe fryinghiseggsnow) was a filthy child molester and
rapist (who not only raped a nine-year-old little girl
but a six-year-old too!!!); and who forced his own son or
nephew (forget which) to surrender his wife to his sexual
depravity. (And now we all know why it is that Muslim women
are treated as badly as they are by the most pious of Muslims!)
Sir, Arabs are and always have been despicable thieves
and cut-throats. And there is no sign remotely in sight
that they will ever be anything else. (And now we all know
why a "religion" created by Arabs is so suffused with the
spirit of thievery and throat-cutting!)
My advise to you is you throw yourself on the ground and
(facing the Holy Black Meteorite in Mecca, certainly NOT
God... who is omnipresent, I'm told, and therefore does not
require that you face in any particular direction when praying
to Him)... ask forgiveness of the Holy Meteorite of Mecca
for daring to look upon the profane goings on in the Internet
(may your eyes go blind and drop to your feet... that you
thereby scare your wife to death every time you remove your
sneakers before going to bed at night).
With sore concern over the soles of your Muslim footsez,
RoyBoy
> TYPICAL HINDU LIES.
>
> Read some history, of course, from reliable source.
Well, I got to say...that is a horrible start to a post.
The Hindu's tell lies...nice oversimplification there chief.
It doesn't exactly indicate to me you would know much
in the way of unbiased history sources.
> Get this through your head:
SDR:
***
Ah, now I see where you've gone wrong: Sir, that is NOT
the way to learn... one needs to get things INTO one's
head (not in one ear and out the other!). Now we all know
why it's so darn difficult for Muslims to understand any
of the advancements of modern Western civilization!...
except what they have the money to buy, of course.
***
Hehe...that was a good one. INTO the head :'D.
Sandar:
> Arabs had contributed more than you
> Hindi did;
SDR:
***
Sorry, unlike George Harrison, I'm neither Hindu
nor associated with any other of the world's major
or minor organized superstitions/organs for the promotion
of human Ignorance... et al
***
Well I would argue that...but I have to ultimately agree
it was only the select few that got decent educations, all
in a bid to keep their mass of followers in the dark,
and subject to their control.
Kind of reminds me of the US, and their appalling
education record allowing the masses to be dumbed
down and thinking the president actually has significant
power...but despite that...getting GWB elected
is like putting salt on a wound, insult to the injury that
is the US political system. :')
Sandar:
> all you contributed was your stupid caste system and
> senseless panthesism.
SDR:
***
***
Question: How long did it take you to read the Koraan (sp?),
have you read it more than once?
S D Rodrian
> news:<5dc0f156.02011...@posting.google.com>...
>> s...@sdrodrian.com (S D Rodrian) wrote in message
> news:<bf7b874e.02010...@posting.google.com>...
>>> It is much more accurate to say that the Muslims STOLE
>>> the scientific databases of the peoples they conquered
>>> (since they originally were in reality, mostly illiterate
>>> Arab nomads)
>>
>> TYPICAL HINDU LIES.
Apparently you believe that simply because I cite the horrors
that Arabs/Muslims visited upon the Hindus (and Islam's genocides
and theft of the treasures of Hindu civilization) that therefore
I must be Hindu! This is most amusing, as it betrays you as a
person who could not imagine someone moral/ethical enough to
denounce crimes committed against someone other than himself!
[Don't fret, yours is a very common flaw in many human beings.]
No: I am not Hindu. It's simply that the Islamic genocide of
Hindus is without question the worst crime against humanity on
record, that's all. Please keep this in mind in the future.
In any case, to remedy my unbalanced approach, and to help
satisfy your thirst for a more comprehensive historical view,
here's the reprint of a letter sent to Carly Fiorina, CEO of
Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech given by
her on September 26, 2001 which you can find at this url:
www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.htm
S D Rodrian
poems.sdrodrian.com
physics.sdrodrian.com
What Arab Civilization?
November 7, 2001
Carly Fiorina
Hewlett-Packard
3000 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185
Dear Madame Fiorina:
It is with great interest that I read your
speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled
"Technology, Business and Our way of Life:
What's Next" [sic]. I was particularly
interested in the story you told at the end of
your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization.
As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of
the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to
5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you
made in this little story, and to alert you to
the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the
Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to
assimilate all cultures and religions into the
Arab/Islamic fold.
I know you are a very busy woman, but please
find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is
a perspective that you will not likely get from
anywhere else. I will answer some of the
specific points you made in your speech, then
conclude with a brief perspective on this
Arabist/Islamist ideology.
Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in
630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began
their conquest of the Middle East. We should be
very clear that this was a military conquest,
not a missionary enterprise, and through the use
of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad
against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to
forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and
non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous
communities of the Middle East survived this --
primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics
(of Egypt).
Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed
these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book
Dhimmi, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance,
where the communities were allowed to rule
themselves as religious minorities (Christians,
Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to
pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was,
in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and
that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and
up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax
forced many of these communities to convert to
Islam, as it was designed to do.
You state, "its architects designed buildings
that defied gravity." I am not sure what you are
referring to, but if you are referring to domes
and arches, the fundamental architectural
breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead
of a spherical shape for these structures was
made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years
earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological
record.
You state, "its mathematicians created the
algebra and algorithms that would enable the
building of computers, and the creation of
encryption." The fundamental basis of modern
mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but
thousands of years before by Assyrians and
Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of
zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many,
many other developments expropriated by
Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian
Mathematics, Neugebauer).
You state, "its doctors examined the human body,
and found new cures for disease." The
overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%)
were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth
centuries Assyrians began a systematic
translation of the Greek body of knowledge into
Assyrian. At first they concentrated on the
religious works but then quickly moved to
science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates,
Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were
translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into
Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which
the Moors brought with them into Spain, and
which the Spaniards translated into Latin and
spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the
European Renaissance.
By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun
exporting back to Byzantia their own works on
science, philosophy and medicine. In the field
of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family
produced nine generations of physicians, and
founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur
(Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the
Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq's textbook on
ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the
authoritative source on the subject until 1800
A.D.
In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian
philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical
theory of the universe, in the Assyrian
language, that rivaled Aristotle's theory, and
that sought to replace matter with forces (a
theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum
mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and
destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum
vacuum).
One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the
fourth century was the founding of the first
university in the world, the School of Nisibis,
which had three departments, theology,
philosophy and medicine, and which became a
magnet and center of intellectual development in
the Middle East. The statutes of the School of
Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became
the model upon which the first Italian
university was based (see The Statutes of the
School of Nisibis, by Arthur Voobus).
When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle
East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of
Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich
heritage, a highly developed culture, and
advanced learning institutions. It is this
civilization that became the foundation of the
Arab civilization.
You state, "Its astronomers looked into the
heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for
space travel and exploration." This is a bit
melodramatic. In fact, the astronomers you refer
to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians
(of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia
were known as astronomers and astrologers, and
who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized -- so
rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared
completely.
You state, "its writers created thousands of
stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic.
Its poets wrote of love, when others before them
were too steeped in fear to think of such
things." There is very little literature in the
Arabic language that comes from this period you
are referring to (the Koran is the only
significant piece of literature), whereas the
literary output of the Assyrians and Jews was
vast. The third largest corpus of Christian
writing, after Latin and Greek, is by the
Assyrians in the Assyrian language (also called
Syriac); see:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14408a.htm
You state, "when other nations were afraid of
ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and
kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe
out knowledge from past civilizations, this
civilization kept the knowledge alive, and
passed it on to others." This is a very
important issue you raise, and it goes to the
heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic
civilization represents. I reviewed a book
http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/greek.htm
titled How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, in
which the author lists the significant
translators and interpreters of Greek science.
Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, 1
was Persian and 1 an Arab. I state at the end of
my review: "The salient conclusion which can be
drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians
played a significant role in the shaping of the
Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge.
If this is so, one must then ask the question,
what happened to the Christian communities which
made them lose this great intellectual
enterprise which they had established. One can
ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly,
O'Leary's book does not answer this question,
and we must look elsewhere for the answer." I
did not answer this question I posed in the
review because it was not the place to answer
it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian
Assyrian community was drained of its population
through forced conversion to Islam (by the
Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled
below a critical threshold, it ceased producing
the scholars that were the intellectual driving
force of the Islamic civilization, and that is
when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to
an end (about 850 A.D.).
Islam the religion itself was significantly
molded by Assyrians and Jews (see Nestorian
Influence on Islam and Hagarism: the Making of
the Islamic World).
Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive
force, it is a regressive force; it does not
give impetus, it retards. The great civilization
you describe was not an Arab/Muslim
accomplishment, it was an Assyrian
accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and
subsequently lost when they drained, through the
forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the
source of the intellectual vitality that
propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim
civilization has risen since? What other
Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?
You state, "and perhaps we can learn a lesson
from his [Suleiman] example: It was leadership
based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was
leadership that harnessed the full capabilities
of a very diverse population that included
Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions."
In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive
to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian
boys were forcefully taken from their families,
usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into
the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where
they were Islamized and made to fight for the
Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or
scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we
point to? We can, on the other hand, point to
the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million
Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by
the Kemalist "Young Turk" government. This is
the true face of Islam.
Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit
campaign of destruction and expropriation of
cultures and communities, identities and ideas.
Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a
non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it
(as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were
destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the
Ayotollah Khomenie). This is a pattern that has
been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400
years ago, and is amply substantiated by the
historical record. If the "foreign" culture
cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated,
and revisionist historians claim that it is and
was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab
"accomplishments" you cited in your speech. For
example, Arab history texts in the Middle East
teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no
reputable scholar would assert, and that no
living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first
settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian
cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before
Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab'
is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the
first written reference to Arabs was by the
Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he
tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" --
Westerners. See The Might That Was Assyria, by
H. W. F. Saggs).
Even in America this Arabization policy
http://aina.org/releases/2001/arabization.htm
continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven
Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an
official letter
http://www.aina.org/releases/2001/caamletter.htm
to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop
identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs,
which it had been deliberately doing.
There are minorities and nations struggling for
survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle
East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics,
Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians,
Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not
to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic
fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their
attempts to wipe out all other cultures,
religions and civilizations. It is incumbent
upon each one of us to do our homework and
research when making statements and speeches
about these sensitive matters.
I hope you found this information enlightening.
For more information, refer to the web links
below. You may contact me at
ke...@ninevehsoft.com for further questions.
Thank you for your consideration.
Peter BetBasoo
Web resources:
Brief History of Assyrians:
http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/brief.htm
Assyrian International News Agency:
http://www.aina.org/
Assyrian American National Federation:
http://www.aanf.org/
Assyrian Academic Society:
http://www.aas.net/
Zinda Magazine:
http://www.zindamagazine.com/
Beth Suryoyo:
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/
Nineveh Online:
http://www.nineveh.com/
World Maronite Union:
http://www.maroniteunion.org/
Maronite Research Council:
http://plaza.powersurfr.com/maronites
World Lebanese Organization:
http://www.wlo-usa.org/
Coptic Web:
http://www.copticmail.com/
thanks: Peter BetBasoo (ke...@ninevehsoft.com)
RoyBoy
SDR...I gotta say...you have outdone yourself,
that sir, was the best letter I have ever read!
I am going to post it elsewhere.
How long have you had this in your possession?
I could have really used it a month or so ago.
s...@sdrodrian.com (S D Rodrian) wrote in message
> news:<bf7b874e.02010...@posting.google.com>...
>> It is much more accurate to say that the Muslims STOLE
>> the scientific databases of the peoples they conquered
>> (since they originally were in reality, mostly illiterate
>> Arab nomads)
Sandar wrote:
> TYPICAL HINDU LIES.
SDR retorted with this gem:
****
www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/speeches/fiorina/minnesota01.htm
What Arab Civilization?
Dear Madame Fiorina:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14408a.htm
http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/greek.htm
http://aina.org/releases/2001/arabization.htm
http://www.aina.org/releases/2001/caamletter.htm
Peter BetBasoo
Web resources:
Zinda Magazine:
http://www.zindamagazine.com/
Beth Suryoyo:
http://www.bethsuryoyo.com/
Nineveh Online:
http://www.nineveh.com/
Coptic Web:
http://www.copticmail.com/
thanks: Peter BetBasoo (ke...@ninevehsoft.com)
****
GFostel
>
>It is much more accurate to say that the Muslims STOLE
>the scientific databases of the peoples they conquered
>(since they originally were in reality, mostly illiterate
>Arab nomads) and then began to discover what they had stolen
>(this "age of discovery" is basically "The Muslim Golden Age").
>
>But this "age" was quickly followed by a realization of
>what those discoveries meant in terms of the consequences
>to Islam: The death of Islam, in short, because "knowledge
>is the death of superstition." That is what the history
>you talk about here boils down to: Islam is not a religion
>concerned with spiritual matters but one concerned with
>material ones (things of the flesh), with political ones.
<<< S N I P >>>
He went on and on. I hope no one actually believes this junk?
I will note that it is odd that a religious tradition that is supposed to be
consumed by material concens is followed by some of the poorest people in the
world while the Christian world which is supposed to be very sipitual is the
birthplace of rapacious capitalism.
---garyFostel---
GFostel
<<< S N I P >>>
Well, here is something I understand very well. Architecture and mathematics.
There is in all of this, an effort to belittle the Islamic achievements, but on
these two fronts, I kow that the accusation are quite lame. The architecture
of Islam WAS an improvement on previous achievments. yes yes the arch dome etc
are old ideas, but how well they are used is the key point.
Yes, it is true that the Pythagorean thm was older than the Greeks (now why is
no one declaiming the false achievements of Greek mathematics for this same
reason? Hmmm) but the Islamic world developed algebra and other advanced
techniques, in order to do an even better job of predicting astronomical events
(spiritual) and deciding the distribution of family wealth (material) when
there are many sons of varying status.
Did they invent everything? Of course not. Did they invent nothing? Also of
course not. The European Renaisance was a direct result of ideas and practises
brought back from the mid east by Crusaders.
---garyFostel---
GFostel
>
>Holy shit!
>
>SDR...I gotta say...you have outdone yourself,
>that sir, was the best letter I have ever read!
>
>I am going to post it elsewhere.
That's pretty sad, you know.
---garyFostel---
S D Rodrian
We're in trouble here...
> Architecture and mathematics.
> There is in all of this, an effort to belittle the Islamic achievements, but
> on
> these two fronts, I kow that the accusation are quite lame. The architecture
> of Islam WAS an improvement on previous achievments. yes yes the arch dome
> etc
> are old ideas, but how well they are used is the key point.
No doubt, no doubt: The muslim architects made their arches
go from there to here instead of the ancient arches which
used to go from here to there. Them guys were geniuses!
> Yes, it is true that the Pythagorean thm was older than the Greeks (now why is
> no one declaiming the false achievements of Greek mathematics for this same
> reason? Hmmm)
Because the Greeks wear dresses, and who wants to get into
a fight with men wearing dresses AND no underwear FOGOD'sSAKES.
> but the Islamic world developed algebra and other advanced
> techniques, in order to do an even better job of predicting astronomical
> events
Sir, please do not get your history from George Bush Junior.
It'll just make you look dumber than him--And that's saying a lot!
> (spiritual) and deciding the distribution of family wealth (material) when
> there are many sons of varying status.
Jeb Bush?
> Did they invent everything? Of course not. Did they invent nothing? Also of
> course not.
There I agree: The Arabs definitely invented... wait, wait,
wait... I'll come up with something on my next post or the
next one after that (there must be SOMETHING the Arabs invented
rather than stole & then tried to pawn as theirs) outside Islam)...
> The European Renaisance was a direct result of ideas and
> practises
> brought back from the mid east by Crusaders.
Yea, yea... that's probably where Giotto, Fra Lippi, Botticelli,
Verrochio, Leonardo, Raphael, and Caravaggio learned to paint:
from studying all those paintings by talented Muslim camel herders
brought back by Crusaders.
SDR
> ---garyFostel---
S D Rodrian
> S D Rodrian wrote:
> >
> >It is much more accurate to say that the Muslims STOLE
> >the scientific databases of the peoples they conquered
> >(since they originally were in reality, mostly illiterate
> >Arab nomads) and then began to discover what they had stolen
> >(this "age of discovery" is basically "The Muslim Golden Age").
> >
> >But this "age" was quickly followed by a realization of
> >what those discoveries meant in terms of the consequences
> >to Islam: The death of Islam, in short, because "knowledge
> >is the death of superstition." That is what the history
> >you talk about here boils down to: Islam is not a religion
> >concerned with spiritual matters but one concerned with
> >material ones (things of the flesh), with political ones.
>
> <<< S N I P >>>
>
> He went on and on. I hope no one actually believes this junk?
He said briefly (as his brain was in short supply):
I hope nobody believes this junk quip.
> I will note that it is odd that a religious tradition that is supposed to be
> consumed by material concens is followed by some of the poorest people in the
> world while the Christian world which is supposed to be very sipitual is the
> birthplace of rapacious capitalism.
I will note that it is just as odd that a religious tradition
that is suppossed to be consumed by spiritual concerns (like
Christianity) is followed by the wealthiest people in the world !!!!!
= I believe that's what you just said, giving the lie yourself
in the last half of your statement to the moronic point you were
trying to make in the first half of your statement!!!!
Sir, please purchase some brains before trying to use them. *
SDR
poems.sdrodrian.com
physics.sdrodrian.com
* This is just a snide remark. Actually it's phenomenal how
you're capable of constructing such hilarious stupidities.
Thank you, and keep up the good work! I love it.
> ---garyFostel---
RoyBoy
>Holy shit!
>
>SDR...I gotta say...you have outdone yourself,
>that sir, was the best letter I have ever read!
>
>I am going to post it elsewhere.
GFostel:
>That's pretty sad, you know.
How's that?
There are smarter people than I here, and [elsewhere].
The more feedback I can illicit, the better I can
refine my perspective.
I did probably go overboard by saying it was the
best letter I read, since it did certainly have a bias
in it...but is it really that inaccurate? I certainly
am always on my intellectual guard...more so with
SDR.
I want to bring this into focus...
-----
but the answer is very clear, the Christian
Assyrian community was drained of its population
through forced conversion to Islam (by the
Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled
below a critical threshold, it ceased producing
the scholars that were the intellectual driving
force of the Islamic civilization, and that is
when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to
an end (about 850 A.D.).
-----
Is this false, innaccurate because of the author's
Assyrian bias?
What then is the story of the fall
of Islamic influence (and affluence?)?.
GFostel
Well, I guess so, cause what you said makes little sense. All I can guess is
that you are refereing to Arab Oil tycoons as the welathiest folk in the world,
but thet are pikers compared to Buffet, Wall, not to mention Gates. Further,
they (The Arab Oil folk) by and large are just selling a commodity they happen
to have, which is not quite the way capitalist folk (as at ENRON) make their
money -- they sell things they don't have. (:-)
But to the point I made, which is quite different, you do not need to be the
wealthiest to be the most rapacious. It is, after all, not money which is the
root of all evil, but its pursuit. Rapacious capitalism is a consequence of
the desperate pursuit of money, not the possession of it.
---garyFostel---
GFostel
>
>garyFostel wrote:
>>
>>S D Rodrian wrote:
>> >
>> >You state, "its architects designed buildings
>> >that defied gravity." I am not sure what you are
>> >referring to, but if you are referring to domes
>> >and arches, the fundamental architectural
>> >breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead
>> >of a spherical shape for these structures was
>> >made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years
>> >earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological
>> >record.
>> >
>> >You state, "its mathematicians created the
>> >algebra and algorithms that would enable the
>> >building of computers, and the creation of
>> >encryption." The fundamental basis of modern
>> >mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but
>> >thousands of years before by Assyrians and
>> >Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of
>> >zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many,
>> >many other developments expropriated by
>> >Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian
>> >Mathematics, Neugebauer).
>> >
>>
>> <<< S N I P >>>
>>
>> Well, here is something I understand very well.
>
>We're in trouble here...
>
Not sure why you use the "royal we" in describing yourself. Are you decended
from someone significant? Should I refer to you are Rodrairian IV or maybe Sir
RD? You may be in trouble for saying silly things I call you on, but I think
no one else will share your pain.
>> Architecture and mathematics.
>> There is in all of this, an effort to belittle the Islamic achievements, but
>> on these two fronts, I kow that the accusation are quite lame. The
>> architecture
>> of Islam WAS an improvement on previous achievments. yes yes the arch dome
>> etc are old ideas, but how well they are used is the key point.
>
>No doubt, no doubt: The muslim architects made their arches
>go from there to here instead of the ancient arches which
>used to go from here to there. Them guys were geniuses!
>
Well, the first paragraph of my enclyclopedia, in talking of Islamic
architecture puts it this way:
- - - - b e g i n e x c e r p t - - - -
Architecture is by far the most important expression of Islamic art,
particularly the architecture of mosques. It illustrates both the diversity of
cultures that participated in the Islamic civilization and the unifying force
of Islamic monotheism represented by the spacious expanse of the mosque--a
veritable externalization of the all-enveloping divine unity, heightened by the
sense of infinity of the arabesque design. The arabesque, though ornately
decorative, spiritually represents the infinite vastness of God.
- - - - e n d e x c e r p t - - - - -
It goes on to list a number of old, beautiful Mosques and details the
architectural innovations involved. I expect any decent reference will tell
you all about it. You do read right?
>> Yes, it is true that the Pythagorean thm was older than the Greeks (now why
>is
>> no one declaiming the false achievements of Greek mathematics for this same
>> reason? Hmmm)
>
>Because the Greeks wear dresses, and who wants to get into
>a fight with men wearing dresses AND no underwear FOGOD'sSAKES.
>
Oh wow! What a profound answer to my observation of yourt bias. How can I
answer logic like this?
>> but the Islamic world developed algebra and other advanced
>> techniques, in order to do an even better job of predicting astronomical
>> events
>
>Sir, please do not get your history from George Bush Junior.
>It'll just make you look dumber than him--And that's saying a lot!
>
Well, actually I got it from research I did a long time ago (before anyone had
heard of either of the George Bushes) for a course I taught covering the
origins of computation, to Comp Sci students when I was a university faculty
guy.
Again, you have no answer to my refutation of your nonsense except juvinle ad
hominyms. Do you think readers might figure out why you respond thusly?
>> (spiritual) and deciding the distribution of family wealth (material) when
>> there are many sons of varying status.
>
>Jeb Bush?
>
>> Did they invent everything? Of course not. Did they invent nothing? Also
of
>> course not.
>
>There I agree: The Arabs definitely invented... wait, wait,
>wait... I'll come up with something on my next post or the
>next one after that (there must be SOMETHING the Arabs invented
>rather than stole & then tried to pawn as theirs) outside Islam)...
>
Pretty lame.
>> The European Renaisance was a direct result of ideas and
>> practises brought back from the mid east by Crusaders.
>
>Yea, yea... that's probably where Giotto, Fra Lippi, Botticelli,
>Verrochio, Leonardo, Raphael, and Caravaggio learned to paint:
>from studying all those paintings by talented Muslim camel herders
>brought back by Crusaders.
>
You idiot. Muslim art was highly developed as a result of the wealth and power
of the Arabian princes. They had enourmous palaces ya know, full of precious
goods and art work. The Crusades were thinly veiled looting missions mounted
by Europeans after they learned of the enourmous wealth of the Mid East of the
time. Most ofit came back to, you guessed it, the Italian area, the first
stopping point on sea routes back with the loot. Gee, guess where the
Rennaisance started and all those artists you mentioned hung out?
But, to address things you may understand, they also introduced coffee to the
Europeans, along with hashhish, which you must be smoking if you think you have
any credibility left.
---garyFostel---
GFostel
>
>RoyBoy wrote:
>>Holy shit!
>>
>>SDR...I gotta say...you have outdone yourself,
>>that sir, was the best letter I have ever read!
>>
>>I am going to post it elsewhere.
>
>GFostel:
>>That's pretty sad, you know.
>
>How's that?
>There are smarter people than I here, and [elsewhere].
>The more feedback I can illicit, the better I can
>refine my perspective.
>
>I did probably go overboard by saying it was the
>best letter I read, since it did certainly have a bias
>in it...but is it really that inaccurate? I certainly
>am always on my intellectual guard...more so with
>SDR.
>
Well, I hope you have read some of my posts responding directly to him.
---garyFostel---
RoyBoy
***
Well, I hope you have read some of
my posts responding directly to him.
Always read your posts...
RoyBoy
***
He went on and on. I hope no one actually believes this junk?
Let's say I do...
***
I will note that it is odd that a religious tradition that is supposed to be
consumed by material concens is followed by some of the poorest people
in the world while the Christian world which is supposed to be very sipitual
is the birthplace of rapacious capitalism.
***
Well it seems obvious that being [very] spiritual has its draw backs...
such as not encouraging free thought, debate and education which
leads to the building of material wealth, and industrial
power to move your society to the next level. Yup, you
heard me right, rapacious capitalism and materialism is the
next level.
And I'm not sure what you are critiquing here in SDR's original
post...for wasn't it discussing their technical and cultural
achievements, or lack thereof, not their spiritual fervor...
which seems to me, directly related.
***
Well, I guess so, cause what you said makes little sense. All I can guess
is
that you are refereing to Arab Oil tycoons as the welathiest folk in the
world,
but thet are pikers compared to Buffet, Wall, not to mention Gates.
Further,
they (The Arab Oil folk) by and large are just selling a commodity they
happen
to have, which is not quite the way capitalist folk (as at ENRON) make their
money -- they sell things they don't have. (:-)
***
:'D [in no way smiling at the misfortune of many
innocent capitalists that were employees of Enron]
***
But to the point I made, which is quite different, you do not need to be the
wealthiest to be the most rapacious. It is, after all, not money which is
the
root of all evil, but its pursuit. Rapacious capitalism is a consequence of
the desperate pursuit of money, not the possession of it.
***
I wouldn't mind possessing more.
ps: I'll try tackling the other thread soon.
---
"My reality check bounced."
- Dilbert
Laurent
reposting it without permission. :)
Laurent
-----------------------------------------------
In article <9vehpe$srd$1...@samba.rahul.net>,
John Smith <johnsmit...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Despite all the oil wealth, why are Muslims all over
> the world so dirt poor and backward. In this category,
> I do not count the Saudis and Kuwaitis who are
> beneficiaries of unearned oil wealth but the unwashed
> masses of dirt poor Muslims from Morocco to Pakistan
> to Indonesia.
>
> Does the oil wealth of Saudi Arabia or Kuwait belong
> to their ruling families or is this wealth supposed to
> help all the poor Muslims all over the world (ie Zakat
> or charity for Muslims)?
>
> John Smith
Someone sent this to me some time ago. I'm sorry, I do not know the
source but it is interesting reading. They look like class notes.
This is where the backwardness began. Today, the Islamic world's
arrested development is perpetuated by massive illiteracy, state
controlled media, and corruption of the faith for political ends.
- - - -
Discussion: Why did the Islamic world fail to achieve the Scientific
and Industrial Revolutions? Case in point: The story of Takiyüddin
Efendi
----------------------------------------------------------------------
4.1. Takiyüddin Efendi, the Istanbul observatory and their demise.
*Tycho's observations were very important because their accuracy far
surpassed any previous accurate enough for Kepler to distinquish
between circular and elliptical orbits.
*Kepler's laws helped Newton
*Newton's laws started Physics
*Out of physics grew the industrial revolution, eventually, modern
technology.
*At the same time, a very similar observatory existed in Istanbul
*Director: Takuyiddin Efendi, Turkish astronomer and mathematician
* born 1526 in Cairo (S. Tekeli writing for Türk Ansiklopedisi) or
possibly 1521 in Damascus
* taught at a madrasa in Cairo
* in 1571, appointed chief astrologer (müneccimbasi)
* Love-hate relationship between astronomy and astrology
* Astrology, although strongly condemned by theologians, held sway
among people and rulers.
* Astronomers obtained support via astrology.
*Takuyiddin pointed out that the astronomical tables (zij) were
outdated, proposed construction of an observatory.
* Supported by Hoca Sa'duddin Efendi (teacher of Sultan Murad III)
and Sokollu Mehmed Pasha (the grand vizier)
* Construction started 1575, finished 1577 (Thyco's Uraniborg:
1576)
*His instruments were much superior two any used before.
* He invented several new instruments
* which are very similar to Thyco's new ones.
*Takuyiddin calculated solar parameters using the "three-point method"
* known in Islamic world since al-Biruni
* first used in the West by Copernicus & Thyco
* Takuyiddin's results were better.
*Made contributions to mathematics, and construction of accurate
mechanical clocks.
The End:
*(One version) When the comet of 1577 (The same comet was
observed by Tycho as well) appeared, the Sultan wanted to know if
this was a good omen for the upcoming Persian campaign, or a bad
one. Takiyüddin Efendi predicted victory. The army indeed emerged
victorious, but when they were on their way back, an epidemic of
the plague spread in the country, and decimated the army as well.
* Whatever the reason, $eyhülislam (chief religious adviser of the
Sultan) Ahmed $emseddin Efendi, who saw Hoca Sa'düddin Efendi as a
rival, claimed that wherever observatories were constructed and men
dared to pry into the secrets of the heavens, divine punishment
resulted in the form of natural disasters, epidemics or wars. He used
the rapid collapse of Ulugh Beg's empire and the current situation as
examples.
*The Sultan got scared and in 1579 (80?) ordered the observatory
demolished. This order was executed by the Navy, which destroyed the
observatory by cannon fire.
*The eventual fate of Takiyüddin Efendi seems to be uncertain; Türk
Ansiklopedisi gives his death with a questionmark (Istanbul 1585?).
The Istanbul Observatory was the last great observatory in Islam. With
its demolition, leadership in astronomy passed over completely to
Europe.
4.2. The stranglehold of scholastic thought. Why?
* The ninth and tenth centuries were the golden age of Islamic
civilization.
* One Thousand and One Nights
* While Europe was held in the grip of the dark ages, Islamic
scientists were
* calculating the radius of the earth,
* inventing algebra and developing trigonometry,
* treating mental disorders,
* But, after Farabi (d. 948) and Ibni Sina (d. 1037, known in the West
as Avicenna), Islam produced no scientists or philosophers of similar
caliber.
* Even the Ottoman Empire, failed to produce even one significant
scientist.
* Stagnation took form of scholasticism
* Theologians classified the fields of learning into revelational
(nakli) and rational (akli) sciences
* Glorified revelational, bellited rational sciences, esp.
philosophy
* best expression (by Al-Ghazali): "Reason is not a good enough
guide, and is bound to lead one astray".
* Also, the way of life adapted by large multitudes: to live as
frugally as possible ("bir lokma bir hIrka" - own nothing but one bite
to eat, one jacket to wear)
* Recipe complete: Scholasticism rejected reason, mysticism rejected
reason and authority, and praised ultrafrugality. Worldly possessions
and knowledge were both undesirable, therefore there was no need for
science or technology.
* Why the change?
Three main reasons put forward;
* Crusades
* Intrinsic reasons (mostly Al - Ghazali)
* Mongol invasion
* Crusades
* Physical destruction
* These people have gone to such lengths for their faith, why not
us?
* Intrinsic reasons (mostly Al - Ghazali)
* The science historian Sachau writes "... But for Al-Ash`ari and
Al-Ghazali, the Arabs [meaning the Muslims] might have been a nation
of Galileos, Keplers and Newtons".
* These two scholars are indeed among the most influential
formulators of theological scholasticism. The question is, were the
scholarly and persuasive abilities of these individuals so superior as
to turn the tide against positive sciences, or was the time already
ripe for scholasticism and fatalism to take root; for external or
internal reasons?
* AydIn SayIII investigates internal reasons and argues that the
scholastic backlash was delayed because of the time taken by theology
to investigate knowledge and arguments translated from ancient Greece;
and then to formulate and codify itself. The backlash was, he writes,
because Islam never accomplished the reconciliation of Greek Science
and religion, as Europe did.
Mongol Invasion
* The Mongols took Baghdad in 1258
* killed hundreds of thousands of people("blood as high as horses'
knees")
* burned down 36 libraries
* destroyed the city. "still not recovered"
* Proceeded to conquer and destroy all of Eastern Islam except
Cairo. Everywhere the lands were in ruins.
* The Mongols killed off inhabitants of whole cities, the fields
were not worked.
* Population declined.
* Outlaws everywhere and local rulers trying to collect the tax due
to Mongols robbed the people.
* It is no coincidence that mysticism fluorished in that
atmosphere, that the greatest mystic poet Yunus Emre lived during that
period.
* If everything you have is destroyed or taken away, it is easier
and more comforting to follow teachings that ask you to divest of your
possessions.
* Various forms of mysticism were adopted, mostly in rural
settings, surviving well into the twentieth century.
* The Mongol invasion hit Islamic science directly as well.
* Baghdad was the major center of civilization and learning, and
other centers were also destroyed.
* A lot of scientists were themselves killed,
* the survivors lost their support systems, their royal patrons.
* A lot of the accumulated knowledge was lost when libraries were
burned down.
* Hulagu, the conqueror of Baghdad, later had the Maragha
Observatory constructed, but the damage was done.
--
Greg Smith
smi...@mac.com
RoyBoy
Well, the first paragraph of my enclyclopedia, in talking of Islamic
architecture puts it this way:
K...
---
Architecture is by far the most important expression of Islamic art,
particularly the architecture of mosques. It illustrates both the diversity
of
cultures that [were subjugated to] the Islamic civilization and the
[military] force of Islamic monotheism represented by the spacious expanse
of the mosque--a
veritable externalization of the all-enveloping divine unity, heightened by
the
sense of infinity of the arabesque design. The arabesque, though ornately
decorative, spiritually represents the infinite vastness of God.
---
I am not at issue with Islam, but I'm cynical of the history provided.
Since the victors write the history, right? Is my analysis simplistic,
yeah...but I think it is the counter balance. They are both
correct...since Islam unified and conquered, and conquered to
unify.
***
It goes on to list a number of old, beautiful Mosques and details the
architectural innovations involved. I expect any decent reference will tell
you all about it. You do read right?
***
Do they specify who made those innovations...or
who built those ancient wonders.
SDR:
>Yea, yea... that's probably where Giotto, Fra Lippi, Botticelli,
>Verrochio, Leonardo, Raphael, and Caravaggio learned to paint:
>from studying all those paintings by talented Muslim camel herders
>brought back by Crusaders.
*roll eyes* Camel herders didn't have the palaces and
the harems the likes of which were never seen before.
***
You idiot. Muslim art was highly developed as a result of the wealth and
power
of the Arabian princes. They had enourmous palaces ya know, full of
precious
goods and art work. The Crusades were thinly veiled looting missions
mounted
by Europeans after they learned of the enourmous wealth of the Mid East of
the
time.
***
Even the one where they sent the kids? Looting mission isn't out of
the question...but weren't they put off by the rapid expansion of another
religion? [which is where the enormous wealth came from]
***
Most of it came back to, you guessed it, the Italian area, the first
stopping point on sea routes back with the loot. Gee, guess where the
Rennaisance started and all those artists you mentioned hung out?
***
Booyah!
***
But, to address things you may understand, they also introduced coffee to
the
Europeans, along with hashhish, which you must be smoking if you think you
have any credibility left.
***
Ehehehe...
RoyBoy
GFostel
>
>***garyFostel wrote:
>Well, the first paragraph of my enclyclopedia, in talking of Islamic
>architecture puts it this way:
>***
>
>K...
>
>Architecture is by far the most important expression of Islamic art,
>particularly the architecture of mosques. It illustrates both the diversity of
>cultures that [were subjugated to] the Islamic civilization and the
>[military] force of Islamic monotheism represented by the spacious expanse
>of the mosque--a
>veritable externalization of the all-enveloping divine unity, heightened by
the
>sense of infinity of the arabesque design. The arabesque, though ornately
>decorative, spiritually represents the infinite vastness of God.
>---
>
>I am not at issue with Islam, but I'm cynical of the history provided.
>Since the victors write the history, right? Is my analysis simplistic,
>yeah...but I think it is the counter balance. They are both
>correct...since Islam unified and conquered, and conquered to
>unify.
Well, consider that the building widely regarded as the most perfect
architeture in existence and possibly of all time (The Taj Mahal) was designed
and built by Moslims. You are welcom to try arguing with that history.
---garyFostel---
RoyBoy
Well, consider that the building widely regarded as the most perfect
architeture in existence and possibly of all time (The Taj Mahal) was
designed
and built by Moslims. You are welcom to try arguing with that history.
Touchay...lets see here...I'm in an altered state...
so I'll just copy and paste some top quality shit...
http://www.pbs.org/treasuresoftheworld/taj_mahal/tmain.html
"On a warm evening of April in 1631, the queen gave birth to their
fourteenth child, but soon afterwards suffered complications and
took a turn for the worse. According to legend, with her dying
breath, she secured a promise from her husband on the strength
of their love: to build for her a mausoleum more beautiful than
any the world had ever seen before."
Date of 1631 for reference.
http://www.historyofindia.com/mughal.html
"There were many contacts with India during this period and the
Arabs learnt much of Indian mathematics, astronomy and medicine.
And yet, it would appear, that the initiative for all these contacts
came chiefly from the Arabs and though the Arabs learnt much
from India, the Indians did not learn much from the Arabs. Delhi
flourished as an imperial capital for the Mughals and spread
southwards.
Gold Coin
It is wrong and misleading to talk of a Muslim invasion of India
or of the Muslim period in India, just as it would be wrong to
refer to the coming of the British to India as a Christian invasion,
or to call the British period in India as a Christian period. Through
choice or circumstances or both, the Afghan rulers and those who
had come with them, merged into India. Their dynasties became
completely Indianised with their roots in India, looking upon India
as their homeland, and the rest of the world as foreign."
http://www.royalty.nu/Asia/India/TajMahal.html
"There are ugly aspects to the legend of the Taj Mahal. Shah Jahan
was a ruthless ruler, and Mumtaz Mahal was equally merciless to
their enemies. It is said the emperor had the hands or fingers of the
craftsmen who built the Taj Mahal cut off to ensure they couldn't
create another building like it. The chief architect was supposedly
beheaded."
http://mnmn.essortment.com/historyempireo_rumj.htm
But to counterman that...
"Istanbul, under his leadership, became a centre of intellectualism,
attracting muslim scholars and creative talent from throughout the
Arab and Asian world. The architecture of the city has been much
trumpeted with the Blue Mosque, built during the reign of the
Ottomans, still attracting scores of architectural scholars and
tourists to this day."
"Despite this advantageous position, Constantinople had begun to
experience widescale degradation and was rife for the picking
and an injection of new enthusiasm. The transfer of power also
marked the begining of the end of the Byzantine Empire; once
the Byzantine christians had lost their capital, the platform for
their imperialist expansion was no longer stable and exposed
the empire to attack."
Hmmmm...new enthusiasm they say...
http://www.turizm.net/turkey/history/ottoman3.html
"[ 5 ] Intellectual decline--Selim and Suleyman's 16th c. victory
over Safavid Shi'ism so consolidated Sunni orthodoxy that
Muslims in the Empire were not forced to engage in intellectually
challenging and stimulating conflict as Catholics and Protestants
were in Europe. Muslim scholars became intellectually
conservative and resistant to new ideas; convinced of the
superiority of Muslim / Ottoman civilization, they were seemingly
oblivious to the advances being made in the infidel West.
Meanwhile, the Ottoman religious establishment gradually became
infiltrated by the Sufi orders, producing a new sort of symbiosis
which gave greater strength to conservative religious" elements."
Interesting...that works.
GFostel
> << S N I P >>
a lot of interesting excerpts from some history web sites. Reading through it
led me to wonder if the reason for the decline of the Muslim intelectual
tradition may have been the complacency of prior successes. Western sceince
was launched in Rennaisance Italy, for example, but that is far from a major
center of science today. Similarly, the US was the major science and
technology country of the 20th century but if you look closely today, it is
foreign nationals who fill up the graduate programs at many of our best
technical schools. Americans are sliding into that same trap that seems to
have stagnated the Islamic intellectual tradition.
I hope I'm over interpreting all of this.
---garyFostel---
RoyBoy
***
a lot of interesting excerpts from some history web sites. Reading through
it
led me to wonder if the reason for the decline of the Muslim intelectual
tradition may have been the complacency of prior successes. Western
sceince
was launched in Rennaisance Italy, for example, but that is far from a major
center of science today. Similarly, the US was the major science and
technology country of the 20th century but if you look closely today, it is
foreign nationals who fill up the graduate programs at many of our best
technical schools. Americans are sliding into that same trap that seems to
have stagnated the Islamic intellectual tradition.
Watching "Silence of the Lambs" while I write this,
perhaps the character will give me some...inspiration.
Yeah it was an interesting hodgepodge of info.
>I hope I'm over interpreting all of this.
Phychohistory is pretty consistent...if you have
nothing to compete against and are isolated, there is no
reason to keep pushing the envelope and adapting.
Rome also follows a similar pattern.
On one hand, the standard of living is pretty damn
high in America...and they have been fairly isolated...
education slips continuously, which does allow easier
manipulation of the masses (Bush Jr's win for example).
The foreign nationals...braindrains...rapid
turn-over of events and news, the global village.
How does that effect the equation.....................
threats are perceived quickly and felt acutely...
when the Cold War was swinging,
the educational laces were tightened.
Two countries...clear enemies, high stakes.
Hmmmm...as intense capitalist, competition
is jacked up thanks to the global economy.
Manufacting spreads to "developing" countries,
but to run things efficiently, there is use of
those foreign students...and high technology.
Will the corporate boards be able to maintain
control...
The lambs...are screaming...
where does the power lie....technical innovation,
technology. In the past, organization was the
key, now it is taken for granted.
America is still the incubator of technology,
with the economic engine to exploit it.
So...I think you are over interpreting...
or under...whichever. It is difficult to be
"oblivious to the technological
advances being made" elsewhere...
---
Lecter: I do wish we could chat longer,
but I'm having an old friend for dinner. Bye.