May peace down on American Mongrel and his worried buddies. Would it though?
DMJoshi
Mongrel will have to conscript Old Pif and the likes to pray hard that
Indians who have stole their livelihood beget only daughters while
they are in America.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
Nah, Old Poof is praying hard that the material (developed by Col.
Sanders?) that encodes astrophysics in American (ethnicity left
ambiguous) genes never ever fall into foreign hands.
Me, ...again!
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
> On 8/18/2010 11:48 PM, DMJoshi wrote:
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10614936
>>
>> Mongrel will have to conscript Old Pif and the likes to pray hard that
>> Indians who have stole their livelihood beget only daughters while
>> they are in America.
>
> Nah, Old Poof is praying hard that the material (developed by Col. Sanders?)
OK, I am trying to decode this "joke".
Material=? Fried chicken?
> that encodes astrophysics
Hmmm...."encodes astrophysics"? What are you talking about? Books? DNA?
> in American (ethnicity left ambiguous)
You were always talking about race, but on technicalities the word "race"
is, itself, an obsolete term since DNA differences between races is much
less than DNA differences can be between people.
genes never
> ever fall into foreign hands.
Foreign hands? Don't you think Americans can be foreigners, too?
Old Pif
Could you come up with something funnier than that load of idiotic
crap? You are supposed to be superior.
Old Pif
********************************************************************************************
According to an industry estimate, more than 60,000 Indian
professionals went
back to their country last year alone, a majority of them IT
professionals.
********************************************************************************************
It is a good news. Bye, bye guys. You are not going to be missed.
Stay cool and keep your wives from immolation.
DMJoshi
> ********************************************************************************************
> According to an industry estimate, more than 60,000 Indian
> professionals went
> back to their country last year alone, a majority of them IT
> professionals.
> ********************************************************************************************
>
> It is a good news. Bye, bye guys. You are not going to be missed.
> Stay cool and keep your wives from immolation.
They are going to be missed by your mothers, wives and daughters.
Latter will have less hindy dicks to come.
This poo calling itself old is fouler than the PoS Mongre.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
Supposed to be? Hah, I _am_ far superior to a halfwitted knuckledragger
like you. And you should talk about 'load of idiotic crap'. Ever read
the drivel _you_ post here, asshole?
Goddamn racist PoS, about a year ago you talked down to me about how oh
so superior Americans (read whites) were, and that they had inborn
'genius' when it came to astrophysics (to dimwitted 6-pack moron like
you this must be the pinnacle of science). The intent was to put down
Indians and their accomplishments (either in the US or elsewhere). I am
not one to forget that in a hurry, old bleeding poof. Dig? I am not
going to pass up the opportunity to dump the most inane and idiot crap
in response to your asinine remarks. Trash like you ain't worth any more
than that.
Old Pif
<KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The intent was to put down
> Indians and their accomplishments (either in the US or elsewhere).
>
I was not necessary as they - "accomplishments" - are next to none.
You are a colony of parasites on the body of civilization.
Me, ...again!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Me, ...again!
May I politely ask you if you ever read much of what Kamal Prasad writes
and how he _exclusively_ criticises the USA, Americans, and of course once
and a while Europe? And, he has been doing this for at least five years
now?
And, I have pointed out that for any criticism he can throw at the USA, I
can come up with analogous criticism of India and its history?
I wonder if you were in my shoes--and seeing a good 100,000+ Americans
_replaced_ by Indians at the decision of US CEOs all to boost their own
stock option grant value and already bloated compensation, in jobs on US
soil back 3-6 years ago, all so that employees can be paid less
money---could you maybe use your imagination to understand any of the
feelings that laid off Americans (it never happened to me, though) might
have?
Oh, yes, ...I've always respected you, no? I still do.
And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed country.
I just want to know why it has to be at the expense of the USA.
Real Indian
Old Pif says...
>
>On Aug 20, 5:04=A0am, "Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu"
><KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The intent was to put down
>> Indians and their accomplishments (either in the US or elsewhere).
>>
>
>I was not necessary as they - "accomplishments" - are next to none.
And so are your personal accomplishments. Let me put this way,
you get no credit or brownie points just for being lucky to have been
born in USA. An indian who sends americans like you to hotdog stand
has accomplished more than trailer trash like you. Good thing is that
american employers understand this better than you and that's why you
are in that sorry state.
HOW HARD IS IT FOR YOU TO UNDERSTAND. MAY BE TOO LOW AN IQ TO UNDERSTAND
ALL THIS
Real Indian
says...
>And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed country.
>
>I just want to know why it has to be at the expense of the USA.
India developing at the expense of USA is no different from Company
A becoming a 800 pound guerrilla in the industry after sending all
competing rivals to Chapter 11. Think about Microsoft or Intel.
Nations compete no differently than companies compete. To a large
extent it is a zero sum game. If China and India come up at the
expense of mediocre americans, sorry, that's life.
Me, ...again!
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Real Indian (who also posts under many different
names, and is thus dishonorable) wrote:
> In article <69fc0464-463d-4631...@j18g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
> Old Pif says...
>>
>> On Aug 20, 5:04=A0am, "Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu"
>> <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The intent was to put down
>>> Indians and their accomplishments (either in the US or elsewhere).
>>>
>>
>> I was not necessary as they - "accomplishments" - are next to none.
>
> And so are your personal accomplishments. Let me put this way,
> you get no credit or brownie points just for being lucky to have been
> born in USA. An indian who sends americans like you to hotdog stand
> has accomplished more than trailer trash like you. Good thing is that
> american employers understand this better than you and that's why you
> are in that sorry state.
I think it is YOU that does not understand how managers/owners/executives
make big suckers out of Indians because Indians can be exploited much more
easily....and paid less.
The whole purpose of unions was to get some power away from
managers/owners/executives.
Your evil thoughts are revealed in your idea that it is a great thing for
an Indian to send an American to a hot dog stand.
You really forgot where you came from.
Me, ...again!
On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Real Indian wrote:
> In article <Pine.BSF.4.61.10...@osmium.mv.net>, Me, ...again!
> says...
>
>> And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed country.
>>
>> I just want to know why it has to be at the expense of the USA.
>
> India developing at the expense of USA is no different from Company
> A becoming a 800 pound guerrilla in the industry after sending all
> competing rivals to Chapter 11. Think about Microsoft or Intel.
All you are doing is justifying imperialism in a different context. And,
that is being a hypocrit considering most Indians resent the English for
ripping off India.
> Nations compete no differently than companies compete.
Yes, only private interests aim at net profit, and political forces aim at
expanding influence. No, when companies and political entities enter into
mutually beneficial arrangements and there are more examples than you can
imagine (I have read the books). No, when the subject of human rights has
been, for the last 150 years, expanding all over the world and attempting
to compensate for the excesses of the rich/powerful. From the Magna Carta
of 800 years ago to handing voting rights to most Europeans was a very
long process to take power away from kings, the church, and the nobles.
None of which deserved such concentration of power and wealth.
Someday you may come to appreciate that this progress in justice and
fairness is good for everyone, not just a few.
To a large
> extent it is a zero sum game. If China and India come up at the
> expense of mediocre americans, sorry, that's life.
As I have demonstrated, China and India have manipulated their currency
for sellecctive benefit of themselves.
It meant nothing when trade deficits were a few billion per year. But,
when China gives us a deficit of 300-500 billion per year, that is serious
economic damage. And, its easy to find reports in the media that even
India and SE Asia, and also Japan, and Taiwan are very worried about
China.
I'm surprised you can only focus on anti-US sentiments.
Real Indian
says...
>I think it is YOU that does not understand how managers/owners/executives
>make big suckers out of Indians because Indians can be exploited much more
>easily....and paid less.
YEAH. S(H)ITTING AT HOME JOBLESS WHILE WAITING FOR FORECLOSURE IS A
BETTER OPTION FOR STUPID WHITES LIKE YOU.
Me, ...again!
I don't blame individual Indians for wanting a job and/or a better life.
I do blame small groups of people who conspire to benefit themselves at
the expense of powerless people. Powerless people includes Americans who
get laid off because CEOs can hire Indians cheaper because the Indians can
be exploited much more easily.
I also blame parts of our government which had hard choices starting
decades ago and cheated Americans by going with easy choices (including
"strong dollar" policy), and I also blame all the 3rd world countries who
got the idea that with cheap currency, they can get _our_ wealth
transfered to them as they grow their economy with export-driven growth
(and parasitize the US; I think it is the main reason the US is having a
harder time than ever before recovering from the recession).
Don't blame the Indians, in general. Kamal, and his buddies (the anti-US
Indians) ...its OK to call them names.
"Myself..Mallu" has been a decent, OK guy to me. Banerjee is an Indian in
Australia with Oz citizenship. He has been decent, OK guy, too. "P. Rajah"
is OK (he fights Maharaj), Ranajit Mathews, is a moderate, not a "Nazi".
Kamal is a anti-US fanatic Indian, so is "indiaBPOking", and Maharaj (who
does a lot more bad than good).
I've been reading on a.c.c. for 10 years, s.c.i. for 5 years.... I can
only think, however, of one post by one Indian who appreciated and
admitted, in his own words, that the USA was good for something, and that
a lot of Indians go to the USA not because its good but to get _out_ of
India.
I even knew one Indian, personally, who was embarrassed to come from
India. He worked at the same place I worked, and had an advanced degree
like I did.
Oh, yes, I hired an Indian long ago. Was with me for some 7 years. Worked
out just fine.
But on these NGs, what does the USA and Americans mostly get from most
Indians? Shit and piss! And, the Indians get the "free ride" (as long as
they have some education and can speak english).
Me, ...again!
On Thu, 19 Aug 2010, Old Pif wrote:
> On Aug 19, 2:48 am, DMJoshi <josh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10614936
>>
>> Mongrel will have to conscript Old Pif and the likes to pray hard that
>> Indians who have stole their livelihood beget only daughters while
>> they are in America.
>
> ********************************************************************************************
> According to an industry estimate, more than 60,000 Indian
> professionals went
> back to their country last year alone, a majority of them IT
> professionals.
This is probably the normal "failure rate" made up of guys tired of
waiting for green card, chances for a more decent pay now that IT pay in
India is up (thanks to business from USA), guys who can't adjust to US
culture and are homesick, and guys coming off their H1B rotation so they
have to go home for at least some period (simple vacation?) before getting
another h1b. And, since 150,000 h1bs granted per year, 60,000 is a small
number. AND, last but not least, all these guys can walk into Wipro, etc.,
and say "See, I've got US track record on my resume" and "how about
hireing me?"....and Wipro, etc., says "sure, we will send you right back
on L (transfer) visa into Wipro branch offices in US and this visa which
has no cap and you will be happy again! The only thing is since your job
security depends on us being cheaper than Americans, if you want
job security, your pay will be low enough that we can undercut Americans.
Just think of it as a normal bribe you have to pay to get the job."
Big free ride for Indians.
Old Pif
>
> Nations compete no differently than companies compete. To a large
> extent it is a zero sum game. If China and India come up at the
> expense of mediocre americans, sorry, that's life.
Listen, Bill,
I am damn curious what where your thoughts when you pull out your
finger from Monica to sign all that documents on globalization with
India. If my memory does not fail me both you, your government as well
as the capacity crowd of Indian jerks escorting you on your historical
visit to India claimed that it opens endless opportunity for both
nations. Now I would like to see what are those opportunities for
Americans?
Here is how those whom you favored so mush evaluate what they got from
you:
On Aug 20, 9:50 am, Real Indian <ind...@india.com> wrote:
>
> An indian who sends americans like you to hotdog stand
> has accomplished more than trailer trash like you. Good thing is that
> american employers understand this better than you and that's why you
> are in that sorry state.
>
Is it what your intentions were to send all us to the hotdog stand or
it is because some hidden Republicans in your administration have
prevailed at the end?
I have sneaking suspicions that the Nation would better off if you had
left your finger where it was. The girl would be happier for sure ...
Yours as always O'Pif
PS. No hard feeling really. What you have done you have done. Hard to
mend it now. You are always welcome over here. I have couple of hot
chicks in mind. Your wife is always out selling the rest of American
left and right and it would not be difficult to trick mine with the
little help from your body guards. We will have wonderful time.
Me, ...again!
I appreciate your humor, Old Pif. Mr. "Real Indian" shows his own screwed
up analysis of the world (in Kamal's class, which parallels Maharaj's
class, and "indiaBPOking" who also hates the USA). While all of these guys
are focused on sending all of us Americans to the hot dog stand (I've been
hearing this for at least 5 years now), you can look below and smile at
these Indians. Indians will be the mice and Chinese will be the cats. ;-)
And we will watch from the other side of the world at who will be dinner.
Oh, yes, India's growth rate this year is projected to be around 7%
instead of 8+% (I have a reference for that somewhere), so the
"India-brag" will be less, too. Most of our problem in the USA is the
rich/powerful who will be parasites on anything, anybody.
-------------------
Financial Times, Monday Jan 4, 2010
title:"China's progress provokes border envy in India"
subtitles: "Delhi minister fears north-east's neglect" and "Beijing steps
up territorial claims"
quotes:
"Indians living in border areas neighboring China are beginning to envy
fast-paced development brought by Beijing to the point of regretting being
Indian, a senior member of India's ruling Congress party has warned."
"'What is the mistake we have made by being Indians [rather than
Chinese]?'"
"Mr. Singh shared some of his concerns with the US Council on Foreign
Relations in November, saying he feared China had become more 'assertive'
in the region."
"S.M. Krishna, India's foreign minister, has expressed New Delhi's
unhappiness at China's assistance to neighboring Pakistan...."
last sentence:
"He said cheap Chinese goods were freely available, with imported
telephone accessories sold at a tenth of the price of Indian equivalents."
Bill Clinton
DARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
that is the sound of my fart right on your face.
How did it smell asshole.
Old Pif
Sounds like Real Indian. Is it really, you, Sir?
Me, ...again!
Looks like you can't do anything but fart, anyway.
Oh, excuse me, you can do something else besides fart: you can steal
identities and along with the fart, insult all the people whose identities
you steal, smear, or malign.
Me, ...again!
I didn't smell anything, but we could call him "multiname" clown since he
has no honor or honesty.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
You aren't necessary for _anything_, old poof. Your sole accomplishment
is leeching off the social welfare system (which I pay into), while
moaning about everything else. Do you list your accomplishments in
'astrophysics', halfwitted baboon. Writing code for a dude/organization
doing the real thinking does not count for much, and your smug
superiority about the trivial is much ado about nothing.
You are one goddamn knuckledragger that civilization completely passed
over. If you had even an iota of intelligence, you would've already made
it clear through your posts. As it stands even a potted plant is smarter
than racist trash like you.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
Yeah, I do read Kamal's writings once in a while. I detect a twinge of
envy and frustration about his visa situation, and realize that he has
strange notions about the H1-B visa, permanent residency, and
citizenship - he often blurs the lines between those three things. I
also do not quite like the generalizations and sweeping statements in
his posts, and would much prefer he deal with individuals. Now, if y'all
can deal with him as an individual, I'd greatly appreciate it. However,
I've often noticed that most individuals use phony doc, and others as a
convenient cover to not just snipe at Indians, but also to put forward
racist garbage like the old poof, or spew forth anti-Hindu crap a la the
evil nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar'. Simply not on. At least not in my
book, and I have no qualms setting aside all norms that apply to humans
in dealing with lower life forms.
> And, I have pointed out that for any criticism he can throw at the USA,
> I can come up with analogous criticism of India and its history?
>
Sure. No one's history is clean, and all the self-righteous noise about
one's own 'cleanliness' is wrong. I don't quite know the usefulness of
dwelling on the past 3000 years of Indian history to snipe at Indians
(Hindus really). One can be mired in this nonsense or one can move on.
The intent of these newsgroups is to promote a dialog (not necessarily
all civil and polite) to understand one another. If I wanted to get a
real dose of hate and bigotry, I'd much rather attend a 'Tea Party' in
the US or a right wing rally in India.
> I wonder if you were in my shoes--and seeing a good 100,000+ Americans
> _replaced_ by Indians at the decision of US CEOs all to boost their own
> stock option grant value and already bloated compensation, in jobs on US
> soil back 3-6 years ago, all so that employees can be paid less
> money---could you maybe use your imagination to understand any of the
> feelings that laid off Americans (it never happened to me, though) might
> have?
>
Yes, it does bother me that US jobs are shipped overseas, and so does
unbridled corporate greed. However, to perennially snipe at Indians for
one's inability to rein in your own greedy CEOs is simply not on.
Indians are not the sole beneficiaries of US corporate greed.
> Oh, yes, ...I've always respected you, no? I still do.
>
Thanks.
> And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed country.
>
I really don't know what this statement means. India should be a
developed country all on its own and in total isolation? In a global
economy of the present day and age, how does one do that? It does not
make sense to me. You do not want all countries to buy US products, and
you'd much rather countries (India included) produce goods and services
for local consumption alone?
Would you like the US to follow the same? It would mean self sufficiency
in oil, and a total stop to exports anywhere - people can develop their
own technologies worldwide, right? Damn, that will put the entire arms
industry out of business and an end to weapons trade. Maybe this is
good. It will prevent the latest technology from falling into the hands
of nations that bear nothing but ill will to the US. However, there are
other European countries that will rush in to fill the vacuum. :-)
Old Pif
>
> This is probably the normal "failure rate" made up of guys tired of
> waiting for green card, chances for a more decent pay now that IT pay in
> India is up (thanks to business from USA), guys who can't adjust to US
> culture and are homesick, and guys coming off their H1B rotation so they
> have to go home for at least some period (simple vacation?) before getting
> another h1b. And, since 150,000 h1bs granted per year, 60,000 is a small
> number. AND, last but not least, all these guys can walk into Wipro, etc.,
> and say "See, I've got US track record on my resume" and "how about
> hireing me?"....and Wipro, etc., says "sure, we will send you right back
> on L (transfer) visa into Wipro branch offices in US and this visa which
> has no cap and you will be happy again! The only thing is since your job
> security depends on us being cheaper than Americans, if you want
> job security, your pay will be low enough that we can undercut Americans.
> Just think of it as a normal bribe you have to pay to get the job."
>
> Big free ride for Indians.
>
The original article was mostly about IT. The destruction of the job
market for which hits probably the rock bottom such that even superior
Indians are in trouble. What can you expect? The mission accomplished.
The corporation wished to have less well paid positions here and they
got it.
I have seen the same in engineering happened 10 years ago or so. Field
- much more mature than IT - passed through the same stages -
overproduction, outsourcing, consolidation. At some point the huge
crowd competed for very few position realized that the opportunities
are very slim. In the company I was at that time substantial chunk of
superiors packed and left. Those whom I know personally were
predominantly on the middle level of management.
Me, ...again!
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010, Old Pif wrote:
> On Aug 20, 6:39 pm, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> This is probably the normal "failure rate" made up of guys tired of
>> waiting for green card, chances for a more decent pay now that IT pay in
>> India is up (thanks to business from USA), guys who can't adjust to US
>> culture and are homesick, and guys coming off their H1B rotation so they
>> have to go home for at least some period (simple vacation?) before getting
>> another h1b. And, since 150,000 h1bs granted per year, 60,000 is a small
>> number. AND, last but not least, all these guys can walk into Wipro, etc.,
>> and say "See, I've got US track record on my resume" and "how about
>> hireing me?"....and Wipro, etc., says "sure, we will send you right back
>> on L (transfer) visa into Wipro branch offices in US and this visa which
>> has no cap and you will be happy again! The only thing is since your job
>> security depends on us being cheaper than Americans, if you want
>> job security, your pay will be low enough that we can undercut Americans.
>> Just think of it as a normal bribe you have to pay to get the job."
>>
>> Big free ride for Indians.
>>
>
> The original article was mostly about IT. The destruction of the job
> market for which hits probably the rock bottom such that even superior
> Indians are in trouble. What can you expect? The mission accomplished.
> The corporation wished to have less well paid positions here and they
> got it.
Just wait till China gets into the market. I read articles they are
teaching english like mad in China.
> I have seen the same in engineering happened 10 years ago or so. Field
> - much more mature than IT - passed through the same stages -
> overproduction, outsourcing, consolidation.
Yep... a lot are in Mexico down to Brazil.
At some point the huge
> crowd competed for very few position realized that the opportunities
> are very slim. In the company I was at that time substantial chunk of
> superiors packed and left. Those whom I know personally were
> predominantly on the middle level of management.
I hope you can get your house paid off soon, and have good retirement
package.
Me, ...again!
I think you and I have a lot of overlap in our impressions of him.
Now, if y'all can deal with him as an individual,
> I'd greatly appreciate it.
I do my best and I hope you also notice that as often as I think of it put
in my disclaimer that I have nothing against India/Indians, but if the
Indian central bank cheats (yeah, all of them do, right?) to make India
more competitive (meaning cheaper to get business) then its an objective
remark just as China (a much worse problem) does the same.
However, I've often noticed that most individuals
> use phony doc, and others as a convenient cover to not just snipe at Indians,
> but also to put forward racist garbage like the old poof,
Well, I also notice a lot of sweeping anti-white, anti-US, anti-European
crap, too. And at the same time I'll acknowledge that Indians may have a
right to retain indignant feelings towards England (for its imperialism of
India). However, as I've tried to enlighten everyone, major conquests from
1940s (Nazi Germany) and going back thousands of years all did the same
thing: conquest for land expansion, booty capture, enslavement,
tribute/taxation, etc.
or spew forth
> anti-Hindu crap a la the evil nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar'. Simply not on. At
> least not in my book, and I have no qualms setting aside all norms that apply
> to humans in dealing with lower life forms.
I hope you let me perceive that Hinduism seems to follow various ranges
of flavor from the "nice-decent" all the way to "Hindu-nationalists,
fascists" of which anyone can find references, authored by Indians, by
google.
>> And, I have pointed out that for any criticism he can throw at the USA,
>> I can come up with analogous criticism of India and its history?
>>
>
> Sure. No one's history is clean, and all the self-righteous noise about one's
> own 'cleanliness' is wrong.
200% agreed!!!!
I don't quite know the usefulness of dwelling on
> the past 3000 years of Indian history to snipe at Indians (Hindus really).
Well, Kamal keeps bashing US/whites/Europeans for invading Americas. What
else can I do but try to get Kamal to "look in the mirror"?
I'm serious.
> One can be mired in this nonsense or one can move on. The intent of these
> newsgroups is to promote a dialog (not necessarily all civil and polite) to
> understand one another. If I wanted to get a real dose of hate and bigotry,
> I'd much rather attend a 'Tea Party' in the US or a right wing rally in
> India.
...or go over to our "alt.politics.economics" ...all full of US bigots,
extremists, fanatics, and mostly closed-minds.
Now you know -- maybe -- why I hang out more on s.c.i ;-) ;-)
>> I wonder if you were in my shoes--and seeing a good 100,000+ Americans
>> _replaced_ by Indians at the decision of US CEOs all to boost their own
>> stock option grant value and already bloated compensation, in jobs on US
>> soil back 3-6 years ago, all so that employees can be paid less
>> money---could you maybe use your imagination to understand any of the
>> feelings that laid off Americans (it never happened to me, though) might
>> have?
>>
>
> Yes, it does bother me that US jobs are shipped overseas, and so does
> unbridled corporate greed. However, to perennially snipe at Indians for one's
> inability to rein in your own greedy CEOs is simply not on.
I try as often as possible to make sure that it is clear that these
scumbags are causing all of this (plus the "strong dollar" and "weak
rupee" economics) and I have zero control over it. Our politicians are
more in the pockets of the rich/powerful.
Beware, this is also already happening in India and China.
Indians are not
> the sole beneficiaries of US corporate greed.
If they do better by coming to a job in the USA than staying in India,
they benefit. If they are cheated by being paid less than average, then
the CEO greed (to transfer the paycheck stolen from Indians as well as US
guys to the CEO wallet) then it is really a crime against Indians, too.
>> Oh, yes, ...I've always respected you, no? I still do.
>>
>
> Thanks.
You're welcome.
>> And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed country.
>>
>
> I really don't know what this statement means.
It means become modern and develope decent standard of living including
transportation, adequate food, adequate health, education, right to
self-determination, human rights.
India should be a developed
> country all on its own and in total isolation? In a global economy of the
> present day and age, how does one do that? It does not make sense to me. You
> do not want all countries to buy US products, and you'd much rather countries
> (India included) produce goods and services for local consumption alone?
>
> Would you like the US to follow the same? It would mean self sufficiency in
> oil, and a total stop to exports anywhere - people can develop their own
> technologies worldwide, right? Damn, that will put the entire arms industry
> out of business and an end to weapons trade. Maybe this is good. It will
> prevent the latest technology from falling into the hands of nations that
> bear nothing but ill will to the US. However, there are other European
> countries that will rush in to fill the vacuum. :-)
All of this is a large number of issues that are beyond the scope of my
time I would need to make a full response. For all those issues, there are
a ton of possibilities.
Thank you again for your time and patience.
Me, ...again!
Since you like to sign as anyone you want, steal my name, slur and smear
my name--and blemish the image and impression of Indians at the same
time--I'm replying to show everyone what kind of teenage-spoiled-brat-
oppositional- defiant-low-quality-juvenile-delinquent you are.
The headers to your post below, are shown farther down.
I am sure that in India, among Hindu and non-Hindu cultures there must be
words for impudent infantile children like yourself.
Might throw in perverted preoccupation with sexual fantasy, too.
=========================================
From in.monica's....@gmail.com Sat Aug 21 03:47:27 2010
Path: news.mv.net!news.glorb.com!news2.glorb.com!news.glorb.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nx01.iad01.newshosting.com!newshosting.com!69.16.185.21.MISMATCH!npeer03.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!drn
From: Bill Clinton <in.monica's....@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: soc.culture.indian,alt.politics,alt.politics.economics,alt.computer.consultants,sci.research.careers
Subject: Open Reply to Old Pif
Date: 21 Aug 2010 00:47:27 -0700
Organization: NewsGuy - Unlimited Usenet $19.95
Lines: 7
Message-ID: <i4o0a...@drn.newsguy.com>
References: <c137a12b-1b65-46b5...@v41g2000yqv.googlegroups.com> <e9344c70-2934-4779...@x25g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: pfa19add6266d42c02d3bb6e3c24802e67da12862656d9d73.newsdawg.com
User-Agent: Direct Read News 5.60
Xref: news.mv.net soc.culture.indian:1689150 alt.politics:4363299 alt.politics.economics:875482 alt.computer.consultants:291243 sci.research.careers:105223
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
>
>
You got that right. _All_ countries (including the good old US of A)
'cheat' when it comes to trade and commerce, the only differences are in
the tactics employed. Some do it with finesse (like currency
manipulation) and some do it with propaganda (democracy, human rights,
...), failing which with brute force (regime change, WMDs, ...). :-)
Now, Europeans 'cheat' too, but they seem to get a free pass. How come?
They're certainly more prosperous and have a shared history with the US,
right? At least they have more in common with the US than yellow- and
brown-skinned Asians, who need to get their comeuppance and return to
their 'poverty' and 'wretchedness', although this wasn't true historically.
> However, I've often noticed that most individuals
>> use phony doc, and others as a convenient cover to not just snipe at
>> Indians, but also to put forward racist garbage like the old poof,
>
> Well, I also notice a lot of sweeping anti-white, anti-US, anti-European
> crap, too. And at the same time I'll acknowledge that Indians may have a
> right to retain indignant feelings towards England (for its imperialism
> of India). However, as I've tried to enlighten everyone, major conquests
> from 1940s (Nazi Germany) and going back thousands of years all did the
> same thing: conquest for land expansion, booty capture, enslavement,
> tribute/taxation, etc.
>
Sure, 'free speech' does come at a price. There is enough blame to go
around, with or without my input. When it comes right down to it, I do
not really care too much about a third-world country like the UK. Its
days are over, and the world needs to move on. In India's case, I'd say
that after 60 years of independence from leeches, it is time the elected
governments show some accountability to its voters and come up with
plans that ensure shared prosperity.
I'll guarantee you this much. Most Indians are not anti-white, anti-US,
or anti-European, unless provoked incessantly. I am willing to bet that
some of the garbage that some Indians spout here is a reaction to the
kind of hostility they probably face in the real workplace. Imagine the
labels of 'cheats', 'job stealers', 'thieves' ..., so cavalierly bandied
about in a 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on
people fresh off the boat. People will take it for a while, and then
will fight back. I'll use my own case as an example. Having patiently
borne the sheer evil crap of 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and
the racist trash of the Old Poof for over a year now, you think I am
going to sit by silently? If y'all can respond to one-sided crappiness
(subjective) of articles posted by phony doc, kamal, ..., why shouldn't I?
> or spew forth
>> anti-Hindu crap a la the evil nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar'. Simply not
>> on. At least not in my book, and I have no qualms setting aside all
>> norms that apply to humans in dealing with lower life forms.
>
> I hope you let me perceive that Hinduism seems to follow various ranges
> of flavor from the "nice-decent" all the way to "Hindu-nationalists,
> fascists" of which anyone can find references, authored by Indians, by
> google.
>
Yes, Hindus come in all sizes, colors, political persuasions, ... Not
very different from people of other religions, and nothing particularly
'superior' or 'inferior' about them.
>>> And, I have pointed out that for any criticism he can throw at the USA,
>>> I can come up with analogous criticism of India and its history?
>>>
>>
>> Sure. No one's history is clean, and all the self-righteous noise
>> about one's own 'cleanliness' is wrong.
>
> 200% agreed!!!!
>
> I don't quite know the usefulness of dwelling on
>> the past 3000 years of Indian history to snipe at Indians (Hindus
>> really).
>
> Well, Kamal keeps bashing US/whites/Europeans for invading Americas.
> What else can I do but try to get Kamal to "look in the mirror"?
>
I'll let Kamal read his own posts and introspect on them. I think they
are one sided, but he is very decent and polite in his tone, unlike me :-)
> I'm serious.
>
>> One can be mired in this nonsense or one can move on. The intent of
>> these newsgroups is to promote a dialog (not necessarily all civil and
>> polite) to understand one another. If I wanted to get a real dose of
>> hate and bigotry, I'd much rather attend a 'Tea Party' in the US or a
>> right wing rally in India.
>
> ...or go over to our "alt.politics.economics" ...all full of US bigots,
> extremists, fanatics, and mostly closed-minds.
No thanks. I subscribe to a single newsgroup - s.c.indian. The others
get included because of the way the thread is distributed. I'll keep the
original distribution unless they include newsgroups related to phony
doc (I am not a member of either the fan club or the anti-fan club), at
which point I'll pare down the distribution. :-)
>
> Now you know -- maybe -- why I hang out more on s.c.i ;-) ;-)
>
>>> I wonder if you were in my shoes--and seeing a good 100,000+ Americans
>>> _replaced_ by Indians at the decision of US CEOs all to boost their own
>>> stock option grant value and already bloated compensation, in jobs on US
>>> soil back 3-6 years ago, all so that employees can be paid less
>>> money---could you maybe use your imagination to understand any of the
>>> feelings that laid off Americans (it never happened to me, though) might
>>> have?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, it does bother me that US jobs are shipped overseas, and so does
>> unbridled corporate greed. However, to perennially snipe at Indians
>> for one's inability to rein in your own greedy CEOs is simply not on.
>
> I try as often as possible to make sure that it is clear that these
> scumbags are causing all of this (plus the "strong dollar" and "weak
> rupee" economics) and I have zero control over it. Our politicians are
> more in the pockets of the rich/powerful.
>
...and slowly drifting into the hands of bigots (the Tea Party). Sheesh,
the 'Tea Party' folks have kicked off a new Nazi movement. The very idea
of a person of color occupying the highest office in the land is
anathema to these kooks. Given time to grow, these kooks will come up
with a list of people to focus upon frustration, rage, and hate.
> Beware, this is also already happening in India and China.
>
Yeah, the power is getting into the hands of oligarchs. Scary!
> Indians are not
>> the sole beneficiaries of US corporate greed.
>
> If they do better by coming to a job in the USA than staying in India,
> they benefit. If they are cheated by being paid less than average, then
> the CEO greed (to transfer the paycheck stolen from Indians as well as
> US guys to the CEO wallet) then it is really a crime against Indians, too.
>
I would much rather see the H1-B program (institutionalized slavery at
best) done away with, and an increase in immigration quotas, in the hope
that the best and brightest from around the world will come to this
country and ensure its continued prosperity. Doing so will create jobs
within the country and help keep the jobs in. Assuming that the new
immigrants accept the American ideal and assimilate, it'll serve
immensely to shrink the world. Yeah, I know this is a bit idealistic.
>>> Oh, yes, ...I've always respected you, no? I still do.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>
> You're welcome.
>
>>> And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed country.
>>>
>>
>> I really don't know what this statement means.
>
> It means become modern and develope decent standard of living including
> transportation, adequate food, adequate health, education, right to
> self-determination, human rights.
>
It is developing at such a rapid pace that there is a social disconnect,
a much sharper urban-rural divide. While there is self-sufficiency in
food (enough stockpiles), there is inefficiency and corruption in the
public distribution system. There are human rights, although rats like
'hari kumar' will fixate on a couple two things to make it look like
Hindus are nazis. Health care, esp. rural health care, is an issue. What
is right to self determination? If you are implying Kashmir, then sorry,
this is simply not on. IMO, the _only_ option that disgruntled jihadi
Kashmiris have is to pack their bags and get the fuck out of India into
Pakistan. I assume that the Indian government will compensate them for
their trouble, but not one inch of land east of the line of control
moves with these fucking baboons.
> India should be a developed
>> country all on its own and in total isolation? In a global economy of
>> the present day and age, how does one do that? It does not make sense
>> to me. You do not want all countries to buy US products, and you'd
>> much rather countries (India included) produce goods and services for
>> local consumption alone?
>>
>> Would you like the US to follow the same? It would mean self
>> sufficiency in oil, and a total stop to exports anywhere - people can
>> develop their own technologies worldwide, right? Damn, that will put
>> the entire arms industry out of business and an end to weapons trade.
>> Maybe this is good. It will prevent the latest technology from falling
>> into the hands of nations that bear nothing but ill will to the US.
>> However, there are other European countries that will rush in to fill
>> the vacuum. :-)
>
> All of this is a large number of issues that are beyond the scope of my
> time I would need to make a full response. For all those issues, there
> are a ton of possibilities.
>
I'm sure we'll discuss it over time. :-)
> Thank you again for your time and patience.
>
>
Cheers
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
> On Aug 22, 10:06 am, "Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu"
> <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You got that right. _All_ countries (including the good old US of A)
>> 'cheat' when it comes to trade and commerce, the only differences are in
>> the tactics employed. Some do it with finesse (like currency
>> manipulation) and some do it with propaganda (democracy, human rights,
>> ...), failing which with brute force (regime change, WMDs, ...). :-)
>
>
> Canada accuses US of using its muscle for softwood lumber and US
> accuses
> Canada of putting its interest first in NAFTA and protecting Canadian
> interest
> first.
>
As the 51st state, Canada get a free pass ;-)
>> Now, Europeans 'cheat' too, but they seem to get a free pass. How come?
>> They're certainly more prosperous and have a shared history with the US,
>> right? At least they have more in common with the US than yellow- and
>> brown-skinned Asians, who need to get their comeuppance and return to
>> their 'poverty' and 'wretchedness', although this wasn't true historically.
>
> Yes it is true that the rise of China and India has more to do with
> race
> than anything else. Americans 'enjoyed' oil like anything and now that
> China and India has joined too, and the great american way of life
> (having a house 40 miles from work and driving single person in SUV
> is true american way of life) is under real threat, US seem to have
> taken
> a lead in going green. Lemme see when will an american in NJ stop
> eating salad coming from Calif via refrigerated trucks in I-80, all
> for $5.
>
Folks from the (now) geezer generation that saw lines in 1973 during the
'oil crisis' (everything is a 'crisis' in the US, which of course
results in a 'war on...'), still carpool (in Japanese imports :-)), and
still live no more than 10-15 minutes from work. The dot com folks are
the ones that drive swank cars, and monstrous SUVs (I recently saw one,
Ford Excursion, that looked like an oil barge). I think SUVs must be
declared criminal. Yeah a 'war on SUVs' would be nice - these things are
really intimidating at 75-80 mph on the highways. What were the
dumbshits in Ford thinking when they cranked out the Expedition and
Excursion? Some other 'patriotic' ones that drive only GM and Ford,
spend their time cursing about the quality the cars (esp. GM cars). :-)
Being in California is nice - the weekly local farmer's market is a
boon, esp. for vegetarians. You get the freshest produce.
>> I'll guarantee you this much. Most Indians are not anti-white, anti-US,
>> or anti-European, unless provoked incessantly.
>
> India is one country which has one of the best favorable view of
> US, in Gallop polls year after year. Even the white European
> countries dislike US more than Indians.
>
Yup! Must be because of the artificially 'weak' rupee ;-) Even under the
heavy socialist regime of Ma Gandhi and despite the propaganda of the
communists, Indians have always had a favorable view of the US. I think
the only dip was during the Afghan wars of the 1980s, and perhaps during
Gulf War I of Papa Bush.
>
>> I am willing to bet that
>> some of the garbage that some Indians spout here is a reaction to the
>> kind of hostility they probably face in the real workplace. Imagine the
>> labels of 'cheats', 'job stealers', 'thieves' ..., so cavalierly bandied
>> about in a 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on
>> people fresh off the boat. People will take it for a while, and then
>> will fight back. I'll use my own case as an example. Having patiently
>> borne the sheer evil crap of 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and
>> the racist trash of the Old Poof for over a year now, you think I am
>
> You mean Old Poop :-)
>
Nah, Old Poof suits this goddamn racist faggot. I am still waiting to
see his publications list (better include some papers on astrophysics)
and his claim on the Nobel. :-)
>> going to sit by silently? If y'all can respond to one-sided crappiness
>> (subjective) of articles posted by phony doc, kamal, ..., why shouldn't I?
>
> Me too.
> The only reason I am out of this is lack of time. I am in a far more
> responsible
> position now and don't have time to 'debate' with bitter old men. As a
> newly
> minted manager, I would rather
> spend my time in firing incompetent people in my group than 'debate'
> with
> folks here (ok that was a bad joke)
>
Dang, I am old, but certainly not bitter :-) Nevertheless,
congratulations on becoming a manager - first step up the corporate
ladder. A word of advice though. Fire incompetent people all you want,
but do not lose the human touch. It is important to not see people you
manage as 'productive units' - your success lies in theirs, and you
should ensure that they have all that they need to succeed.
> Straydog (Me Again) is no different than Terry Lomax. In fact TL is
> better.
> At least he makes no pretense of hiding his dislike for Indians.
>
Heh, TL is a Paki katua - the only species that refers to Indians as
'Hindustani'.
> Keep it up Mallu.Your posts are always a joy to read.
Thanks.
Cheers
VB
Me, ...again!
I have no control over our govt, and I was never in favor of the Iraq war
even before it got started and I laughed when Bush talked about WMD in
Iraq. The WMD are in USA, Russia, China, India, Israel, France,
England....maybe N. Korea.
> Now, Europeans 'cheat' too, but they seem to get a free pass. How come?
> They're certainly more prosperous and have a shared history with the US,
> right? At least they have more in common with the US than yellow- and
> brown-skinned Asians, who need to get their comeuppance and return to their
> 'poverty' and 'wretchedness', although this wasn't true historically.
Well, you'd have to explain that in more detail. So far it looks to me
like Europe is outsourcing to India-China just as much as USA, and they
are/were in trade deficit to India-China (at least sometime a year ago).
>> However, I've often noticed that most individuals
>>> use phony doc, and others as a convenient cover to not just snipe at
>>> Indians, but also to put forward racist garbage like the old poof,
>>
>> Well, I also notice a lot of sweeping anti-white, anti-US, anti-European
>> crap, too. And at the same time I'll acknowledge that Indians may have a
>> right to retain indignant feelings towards England (for its imperialism
>> of India). However, as I've tried to enlighten everyone, major conquests
>> from 1940s (Nazi Germany) and going back thousands of years all did the
>> same thing: conquest for land expansion, booty capture, enslavement,
>> tribute/taxation, etc.
>>
>
> Sure, 'free speech' does come at a price. There is enough blame to go around,
> with or without my input. When it comes right down to it, I do not really
> care too much about a third-world country like the UK. Its days are over, and
> the world needs to move on. In India's case, I'd say that after 60 years of
> independence from leeches, it is time the elected governments show some
> accountability to its voters and come up with plans that ensure shared
> prosperity.
I'll leave all of that to Indians who care about India.
> I'll guarantee you this much. Most Indians are not anti-white, anti-US, or
> anti-European, unless provoked incessantly. I am willing to bet that some of
> the garbage that some Indians spout here is a reaction to the kind of
> hostility they probably face in the real workplace. Imagine the labels of
> 'cheats',
As long as Kamal, etc., will criticise the USA and its problems, then I
feel free to criticise India's comparable problems. However, China is a
far bigger problem, and the complicity of greedy-selfish CEOs is the next
component that is present.
> 'job stealers',
At least a 100,000-200,000 Americans were flushed out of jobs they were
doing for many years ...to be replaced by only Indians, and surely only
because they could be exploited.
As a matter of fact, I've even traced the term "job stealers"--using
Google-- to being used on Indian websites, and used with happiness.
> 'thieves'
Mr. ID-Theif has stolen many names, including mine, and
slanderous-insulting versions of mine (all in the archives), many times.
And, he is surely an Indian.
..., so cavalierly bandied about in a
> 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on people fresh off
> the boat. People will take it for a while, and then will fight back. I'll use
> my own case as an example. Having patiently borne the sheer evil crap of
> 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and the racist trash of the Old Poof
> for over a year now, you think I am going to sit by silently?
You're welcome to address your questions and counter-statements to them.
If y'all can
> respond to one-sided crappiness (subjective) of articles posted by phony doc,
> kamal, ..., why shouldn't I?
Please remember-- yet again--my focus on the trade problem is not
_Indians_ but the trade imbalance as created by the US CEOs and central
bank manipulations (both the high USD and the low Rupee).
>> or spew forth
>>> anti-Hindu crap a la the evil nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar'. Simply not
>>> on. At least not in my book, and I have no qualms setting aside all
>>> norms that apply to humans in dealing with lower life forms.
>>
>> I hope you let me perceive that Hinduism seems to follow various ranges
>> of flavor from the "nice-decent" all the way to "Hindu-nationalists,
>> fascists" of which anyone can find references, authored by Indians, by
>> google.
>>
>
> Yes, Hindus come in all sizes, colors, political persuasions, ... Not very
> different from people of other religions, and nothing particularly 'superior'
> or 'inferior' about them.
And, we have a similar range for Americans. Mostly American "trash" can be
found on alt.politics.economics. Or... otherwise known as "endless
arguing."
>>>> And, I have pointed out that for any criticism he can throw at the USA,
>>>> I can come up with analogous criticism of India and its history?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sure. No one's history is clean, and all the self-righteous noise
>>> about one's own 'cleanliness' is wrong.
>>
>> 200% agreed!!!!
>>
>> I don't quite know the usefulness of dwelling on
>>> the past 3000 years of Indian history to snipe at Indians (Hindus
>>> really).
>>
>> Well, Kamal keeps bashing US/whites/Europeans for invading Americas.
>> What else can I do but try to get Kamal to "look in the mirror"?
>>
>
> I'll let Kamal read his own posts and introspect on them. I think they are
> one sided, but he is very decent and polite in his tone, unlike me :-)
Hah! ;-)
He is also honest with using his own name (unlike "Real Indian" otherwise
"Mr. ID-Theif"). But, half of what Kamal says is untrue or wrong.
Oh, yes. I can be polite or rough, too.
>> I'm serious.
>>
>>> One can be mired in this nonsense or one can move on. The intent of
>>> these newsgroups is to promote a dialog (not necessarily all civil and
>>> polite) to understand one another. If I wanted to get a real dose of
>>> hate and bigotry, I'd much rather attend a 'Tea Party' in the US or a
>>> right wing rally in India.
>>
>> ...or go over to our "alt.politics.economics" ...all full of US bigots,
>> extremists, fanatics, and mostly closed-minds.
>
> No thanks. I subscribe to a single newsgroup - s.c.indian. The others get
> included because of the way the thread is distributed. I'll keep the original
> distribution unless they include newsgroups related to phony doc (I am not a
> member of either the fan club or the anti-fan club), at which point I'll pare
> down the distribution. :-)
As you wish (but Maharaj is doing more bad than good).
>>
>> Now you know -- maybe -- why I hang out more on s.c.i ;-) ;-)
>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it does bother me that US jobs are shipped overseas, and so does
>>> unbridled corporate greed. However, to perennially snipe at Indians
>>> for one's inability to rein in your own greedy CEOs is simply not on.
>>
>> I try as often as possible to make sure that it is clear that these
>> scumbags are causing all of this (plus the "strong dollar" and "weak
>> rupee" economics) and I have zero control over it. Our politicians are
>> more in the pockets of the rich/powerful.
>>
>
> ...and slowly drifting into the hands of bigots (the Tea Party). Sheesh, the
> 'Tea Party' folks have kicked off a new Nazi movement.
I am very worried about these guys, and Sarah Palin.
The very idea of a
> person of color occupying the highest office in the land is anathema to these
> kooks.
Even worse is that quite a few think he is Muslim, and still bringing up
that maybe he was not born in the USA.
> Given time to grow, these kooks will come up with a list of people to
> focus upon frustration, rage, and hate.
The problem is analogous to Depression Germany where the minority Nazis
_did_ get into power by exploiting the depression's effect on people plus
all kinds of Nazi intimidation techniques.
>> Beware, this is also already happening in India and China.
>>
>
> Yeah, the power is getting into the hands of oligarchs. Scary!
And, when governments let the rich make most of the decisions.... watch
out. We will be headed back to the dark ages with new versions of "nobles"
running everything.
>> Indians are not
>>> the sole beneficiaries of US corporate greed.
>>
>> If they do better by coming to a job in the USA than staying in India,
>> they benefit. If they are cheated by being paid less than average, then
>> the CEO greed (to transfer the paycheck stolen from Indians as well as
>> US guys to the CEO wallet) then it is really a crime against Indians, too.
>>
>
> I would much rather see the H1-B program (institutionalized slavery at best)
> done away with, and an increase in immigration quotas, in the hope that the
> best and brightest from around the world will come to this country and ensure
> its continued prosperity.
Like a lot of things in the USA, corporate lobbyists probably designed the
H1B and then handed the plans to our Congress for implementation.
Doing so will create jobs within the country and
> help keep the jobs in. Assuming that the new immigrants accept the American
> ideal and assimilate, it'll serve immensely to shrink the world. Yeah, I know
> this is a bit idealistic.
That's all fine as long as it does not turn into an American worker
replacement program which flushes Americans out of jobs AND pays the
immigrants less.
>>>> Oh, yes, ...I've always respected you, no? I still do.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> You're welcome.
>>
>>>> And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed country.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I really don't know what this statement means.
>>
>> It means become modern and develope decent standard of living including
>> transportation, adequate food, adequate health, education, right to
>> self-determination, human rights.
>>
>
> It is developing at such a rapid pace that there is a social disconnect, a
> much sharper urban-rural divide. While there is self-sufficiency in food
> (enough stockpiles), there is inefficiency and corruption in the public
> distribution system. There are human rights, although rats like 'hari kumar'
> will fixate on a couple two things to make it look like Hindus are nazis.
> Health care, esp. rural health care, is an issue. What is right to self
> determination?
No, let low-castes have freedom to pursue... let all people marry who they
want without fear of "honor killings" etc. etc.
> If you are implying Kashmir, then sorry, this is simply not
> on.
I'm not going to get into local disputes. That is for India/Paki to
decide.
IMO, the _only_ option that disgruntled jihadi Kashmiris have is to pack
> their bags and get the fuck out of India into Pakistan. I assume that the
> Indian government will compensate them for their trouble, but not one inch of
> land east of the line of control moves with these fucking baboons.
I'll leave that to you guys.
>> India should be a developed
>>> country all on its own and in total isolation? In a global economy of
>>> the present day and age, how does one do that? It does not make sense
>>> to me. You do not want all countries to buy US products, and you'd
>>> much rather countries (India included) produce goods and services for
>>> local consumption alone?
>>>
>>> Would you like the US to follow the same? It would mean self
>>> sufficiency in oil, and a total stop to exports anywhere - people can
>>> develop their own technologies worldwide, right? Damn, that will put
>>> the entire arms industry out of business and an end to weapons trade.
>>> Maybe this is good. It will prevent the latest technology from falling
>>> into the hands of nations that bear nothing but ill will to the US.
>>> However, there are other European countries that will rush in to fill
>>> the vacuum. :-)
>>
>> All of this is a large number of issues that are beyond the scope of my
>> time I would need to make a full response. For all those issues, there
>> are a ton of possibilities.
>>
>
> I'm sure we'll discuss it over time. :-)
For me, probably not in much detail, but only in generalities.
Bye for now.
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, Tambi Dude wrote:
> On Aug 22, 10:06 am, "Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu"
> <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You got that right. _All_ countries (including the good old US of A)
>> 'cheat' when it comes to trade and commerce, the only differences are in
>> the tactics employed. Some do it with finesse (like currency
>> manipulation) and some do it with propaganda (democracy, human rights,
>> ...), failing which with brute force (regime change, WMDs, ...). :-)
>
> LOL.
>
> Canada accuses US of using its muscle for softwood lumber and US
> accuses
> Canada of putting its interest first in NAFTA and protecting Canadian
> interest
> first.
Its a pretty small problem compared to US-vs.-China.
>> Now, Europeans 'cheat' too, but they seem to get a free pass. How come?
>> They're certainly more prosperous and have a shared history with the US,
>> right? At least they have more in common with the US than yellow- and
>> brown-skinned Asians, who need to get their comeuppance and return to
>> their 'poverty' and 'wretchedness', although this wasn't true historically.
>
> Yes it is true that the rise of China and India has more to do with
> race
> than anything else. Americans 'enjoyed' oil like anything and now that
> China and India has joined too, and the great american way of life
> (having a house 40 miles from work and driving single person in SUV
> is true american way of life) is under real threat, US seem to have
> taken
> a lead in going green. Lemme see when will an american in NJ stop
> eating salad coming from Calif via refrigerated trucks in I-80, all
> for $5.
When the economics affect the situation, then the situation will change.
Oh, yes, by the way, are you still enjoying "screwing" job applicants
where you work over that one question you know they all don't know the
answer to?
>> I'll guarantee you this much. Most Indians are not anti-white, anti-US,
>> or anti-European, unless provoked incessantly.
>
> India is one country which has one of the best favorable view of
> US, in Gallop polls year after year. Even the white European
> countries dislike US more than Indians.
1-2 years ago I visited a lot of Indian websites. All kinds of anti-US
criticism. Sorry I didn't save some of it.
>
>> I am willing to bet that
>> some of the garbage that some Indians spout here is a reaction to the
>> kind of hostility they probably face in the real workplace. Imagine the
>> labels of 'cheats', 'job stealers', 'thieves' ..., so cavalierly bandied
>> about in a 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on
>> people fresh off the boat. People will take it for a while, and then
>> will fight back. I'll use my own case as an example. Having patiently
>> borne the sheer evil crap of 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and
>> the racist trash of the Old Poof for over a year now, you think I am
>
> You mean Old Poop :-)
>
>> going to sit by silently? If y'all can respond to one-sided crappiness
>> (subjective) of articles posted by phony doc, kamal, ..., why shouldn't I?
>
> Me too.
> The only reason I am out of this is lack of time. I am in a far more
> responsible
> position now and don't have time to 'debate' with bitter old men. As a
> newly
> minted manager, I would rather
> spend my time in firing incompetent people in my group than 'debate'
> with
> folks here (ok that was a bad joke)
Did you forget to tell everyone that what you would do after you fired
incompetants, the next thing you do is hire an Indian who might be a
relative, or someone who pays you a bribe under the table for the job?
(OK, that was a bad joke, too). Sorry, I take it all back.
> Straydog (Me Again) is no different than Terry Lomax. In fact TL is
> better.
> At least he makes no pretense of hiding his dislike for Indians.
>
> Keep it up Mallu.Your posts are always a joy to read.
>
I actually like him and his posts a lot. I like Banerjee a lot, too.
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
> On 8/22/2010 7:39 AM, Tambi Dude wrote:
>> On Aug 22, 10:06 am, "Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu"
>> <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You got that right. _All_ countries (including the good old US of A)
>>> 'cheat' when it comes to trade and commerce, the only differences are in
>>> the tactics employed. Some do it with finesse (like currency
>>> manipulation) and some do it with propaganda (democracy, human rights,
>>> ...), failing which with brute force (regime change, WMDs, ...). :-)
>>
>> LOL.
>>
>> Canada accuses US of using its muscle for softwood lumber and US
>> accuses
>> Canada of putting its interest first in NAFTA and protecting Canadian
>> interest
>> first.
>>
>
> As the 51st state, Canada get a free pass ;-)
You forgot the other 52nd to 99th states. ;-) All the ones running trade
surpluses with the US. Someday that's going to end, and then what will
they do? Become part of China?
>>> Now, Europeans 'cheat' too, but they seem to get a free pass. How come?
>>> They're certainly more prosperous and have a shared history with the US,
>>> right? At least they have more in common with the US than yellow- and
>>> brown-skinned Asians, who need to get their comeuppance and return to
>>> their 'poverty' and 'wretchedness', although this wasn't true
>>> historically.
>>
>> Yes it is true that the rise of China and India has more to do with
>> race
>> than anything else. Americans 'enjoyed' oil like anything and now that
>> China and India has joined too, and the great american way of life
>> (having a house 40 miles from work and driving single person in SUV
>> is true american way of life) is under real threat, US seem to have
>> taken
>> a lead in going green. Lemme see when will an american in NJ stop
>> eating salad coming from Calif via refrigerated trucks in I-80, all
>> for $5.
>>
>
> Folks from the (now) geezer generation that saw lines in 1973 during the 'oil
> crisis'
It was never a crisis. You can find articles in the newspapers back then,
later in the crisis, that it was all manufactured by the US oil companies.
The newspapers found out all the inventory tanks in the USA were packed
full, and oil tankers--fully loaded with crude--were anchored outside the
Houston ship channel, waiting for permission from shore to unload.
It was all a big scam by the oil companies. And, the quarterly reports
showed it. Their profits were all up by 400% to 600% or any other
astronomical number. The oil embargo was a (Arab) scam too. The oil just
got routed to 3rd party ports, and even on paper so the ships didn't even
have to go to those ports for re-embarkation.
(everything is a 'crisis' in the US, which of course results in a
> 'war on...'), still carpool (in Japanese imports :-)), and still live no more
> than 10-15 minutes from work. The dot com folks are the ones that drive swank
> cars, and monstrous SUVs (I recently saw one, Ford Excursion, that looked
> like an oil barge). I think SUVs must be declared criminal. Yeah a 'war on
> SUVs' would be nice - these things are really intimidating at 75-80 mph on
> the highways. What were the dumbshits in Ford thinking when they cranked out
> the Expedition and Excursion? Some other 'patriotic' ones that drive only GM
> and Ford, spend their time cursing about the quality the cars (esp. GM cars).
> :-)
Welcome to materialistic capitalism. Its going to be in India, soon, and
already in China, now.
> Being in California is nice - the weekly local farmer's market is a boon,
> esp. for vegetarians. You get the freshest produce.
We have lots of farmers markets here, too. We use them quite a bit.
>>> I'll guarantee you this much. Most Indians are not anti-white, anti-US,
>>> or anti-European, unless provoked incessantly.
>>
>> India is one country which has one of the best favorable view of
>> US, in Gallop polls year after year. Even the white European
>> countries dislike US more than Indians.
>>
>
> Yup! Must be because of the artificially 'weak' rupee ;-)
Nah.... jobs raining down on India from USA. :-)
Even under the
> heavy socialist regime of Ma Gandhi and despite the propaganda of the
> communists, Indians have always had a favorable view of the US. I think the
> only dip was during the Afghan wars of the 1980s, and perhaps during Gulf War
> I of Papa Bush.
>
>>
>>> I am willing to bet that
>>> some of the garbage that some Indians spout here is a reaction to the
>>> kind of hostility they probably face in the real workplace. Imagine the
>>> labels of 'cheats', 'job stealers', 'thieves' ..., so cavalierly bandied
>>> about in a 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on
>>> people fresh off the boat. People will take it for a while, and then
>>> will fight back. I'll use my own case as an example. Having patiently
>>> borne the sheer evil crap of 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and
>>> the racist trash of the Old Poof for over a year now, you think I am
>>
>> You mean Old Poop :-)
>>
>
> Nah, Old Poof suits this goddamn racist faggot. I am still waiting to see his
> publications list (better include some papers on astrophysics) and his claim
> on the Nobel. :-)
Anyone can see my publication list by putting my name in
http://scholar.google.com
Then, I'd like to see their resume, or publication list, too.
>>> going to sit by silently? If y'all can respond to one-sided crappiness
>>> (subjective) of articles posted by phony doc, kamal, ..., why shouldn't I?
>>
>> Me too.
>> The only reason I am out of this is lack of time. I am in a far more
>> responsible
>> position now and don't have time to 'debate' with bitter old men. As a
>> newly
>> minted manager, I would rather
>> spend my time in firing incompetent people in my group than 'debate'
>> with
>> folks here (ok that was a bad joke)
>>
>
> Dang, I am old, but certainly not bitter :-) Nevertheless, congratulations on
> becoming a manager - first step up the corporate ladder. A word of advice
> though. Fire incompetent people all you want, but do not lose the human
> touch. It is important to not see people you manage as 'productive units' -
> your success lies in theirs, and you should ensure that they have all that
> they need to succeed.
>
>> Straydog (Me Again) is no different than Terry Lomax. In fact TL is
>> better.
>> At least he makes no pretense of hiding his dislike for Indians.
>>
>
> Heh, TL is a Paki katua - the only species that refers to Indians as
> 'Hindustani'.
How about Harmony who, for one, made reference many times to "Hindustan"
and the "Hindustan embassy"?
DMJoshi
> I laughed when Bush talked about WMD in
> Iraq.
You and Old Pif could have gone on fast to death against invasion.
Could even have burnt yourselves like Thích Quảng Đức did in 1963 in
Saigon.
How many Iraqi lives could have been saved? How many American lives?
You are good at figures. Say how many trillions of American Tax
payer's money could have been saved?
All those put out of job by Indians could have been hired productively
many times over.
No?
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, Tambi Dude wrote:
> On Aug 22, 2:37 pm, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>>
>> Oh, yes, by the way, are you still enjoying "screwing" job applicants
>> where you work over that one question you know they all don't know the
>> answer to?
>
> actually as a manager I have progressed to 'screwing' their careers
> and sending them
> to hot-dog stand :-)
> I already fired an american (african american ), next in pipeline is
> an indian
> and after that in another six months will be a WASP american. See, I
> am an Equal Opportunity Firer :-)
> We are following what is called forced attrition in which bottom
> performers are
> out. I personally think this is not a right approach, but hey I have
> to follow what
> my manager says.
Well, you still didn't answer my question about how much pleasure you
explained--months ago--in asking that "one question nobody knows the
answer to".
>
>> Did you forget to tell everyone that what you would do after you fired
>> incompetants, the next thing you do is hire an Indian who might be a
>> relative, or someone who pays you a bribe under the table for the job?
>>
>> (OK, that was a bad joke, too). Sorry, I take it all back.
>
> one of the unmentioned perks of being a manager is to actually know
> how much other group members make, sometimes exactly and sometimes
> in range. And I can see that nationality and race has no place in
> compensation
> in our group. Now when I see the compensation of others, it seems even
> as a
> non manager I made more than WASP colleagues.
One would have to investigate why that might be.
So you can shove it
> up your ass.
Oh, I doubt I will do that.
> I think I have significantly invested my personal time in my career
> and I
> have no regrets. It's my choice.
>
>
>
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, DMJoshi wrote:
> On Aug 22, 7:31 pm, "Me, ...again!" <arthu...@mv.com> wrote:
>> I laughed when Bush talked about WMD in
>> Iraq.
>
> You and Old Pif could have gone on fast to death against invasion.
I don't know about Old Pif, but I doubt if you were in my shoes that you
would do that. Besides, it wouldn't have done any good.
> Could even have burnt yourselves like Thích Quảng Đức did in 1963 in
> Saigon.
Why don't you burn yourself in protest to me?
> How many Iraqi lives could have been saved? How many American lives?
How many Indian women burned in Sati that could have been saved? How many
victims of Indian Thuggee ritual murder could have been saved? The list
goes on.
> You are good at figures. Say how many trillions of American Tax
> payer's money could have been saved?
I did the research on how India has tenth highest military spending and
India is far lower for rank in wealth to afford such waste and misplaced
priorities.
> All those put out of job by Indians could have been hired productively
> many times over.
I'm still waiting for _any_ thanks from any Indians about how many US jobs
disappeared from the US and rained down in India as mana from heaven.
How the computers, internet, and communications, all invented and
developed in the USA, rained down all those call-center jobs for
Indians.
> No?
>
Old Pif
> ... you can look below and smile at
> these Indians. Indians will be the mice and Chinese will be the cats. ;-)
> And we will watch from the other side of the world at who will be dinner.
>
Careful analysis of the situation tells that Indians most probably
win. They have secret weapon. They fart in Chinese faces and suffocate
all of them. Gas attack basically.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
>
>
> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>
>> On 8/22/2010 7:39 AM, Tambi Dude wrote:
>>> On Aug 22, 10:06 am, "Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu"
>>> <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You got that right. _All_ countries (including the good old US of A)
>>>> 'cheat' when it comes to trade and commerce, the only differences
>>>> are in
>>>> the tactics employed. Some do it with finesse (like currency
>>>> manipulation) and some do it with propaganda (democracy, human rights,
>>>> ...), failing which with brute force (regime change, WMDs, ...). :-)
>>>
>>> LOL.
>>>
>>> Canada accuses US of using its muscle for softwood lumber and US
>>> accuses
>>> Canada of putting its interest first in NAFTA and protecting Canadian
>>> interest
>>> first.
>>>
>>
>> As the 51st state, Canada get a free pass ;-)
>
> You forgot the other 52nd to 99th states. ;-) All the ones running trade
> surpluses with the US. Someday that's going to end, and then what will
> they do? Become part of China?
>
Heh, _nobody_ gets to be part of China. All non-Han Chinese are
'barbarians' and hence, forbidden to even 'dream' that. :-)
Although it is not surprising that the 'crisis' was 'manufactured', many
of my geezer colleagues claim it was for real.
> (everything is a 'crisis' in the US, which of course results in a
>> 'war on...'), still carpool (in Japanese imports :-)), and still live
>> no more than 10-15 minutes from work. The dot com folks are the ones
>> that drive swank cars, and monstrous SUVs (I recently saw one, Ford
>> Excursion, that looked like an oil barge). I think SUVs must be
>> declared criminal. Yeah a 'war on SUVs' would be nice - these things
>> are really intimidating at 75-80 mph on the highways. What were the
>> dumbshits in Ford thinking when they cranked out the Expedition and
>> Excursion? Some other 'patriotic' ones that drive only GM and Ford,
>> spend their time cursing about the quality the cars (esp. GM cars). :-)
>
> Welcome to materialistic capitalism. Its going to be in India, soon, and
> already in China, now.
>
It is not 'going to be', it already 'is' :-) I have read about gated
communities in the Silicon Valley of India - Bangalore. Apparently the
gated communities are chockful of villas (someone please confirm this
hearsay).
>> Being in California is nice - the weekly local farmer's market is a
>> boon, esp. for vegetarians. You get the freshest produce.
>
> We have lots of farmers markets here, too. We use them quite a bit.
>
>>>> I'll guarantee you this much. Most Indians are not anti-white, anti-US,
>>>> or anti-European, unless provoked incessantly.
>>>
>>> India is one country which has one of the best favorable view of
>>> US, in Gallop polls year after year. Even the white European
>>> countries dislike US more than Indians.
>>>
>>
>> Yup! Must be because of the artificially 'weak' rupee ;-)
>
> Nah.... jobs raining down on India from USA. :-)
>
Nope. Rank and file Indians wouldn't know about jobs 'raining down' on
India. The number of Indians involved in any 'outsourced' business from
the US is miniscule. Yeah, Indians are not eagerly looking for US
business outsourcing. However, they wouldn't (and shouldn't) refuse any
opportunities that come their way.
> Even under the
>> heavy socialist regime of Ma Gandhi and despite the propaganda of the
>> communists, Indians have always had a favorable view of the US. I
>> think the only dip was during the Afghan wars of the 1980s, and
>> perhaps during Gulf War I of Papa Bush.
>>
>>>
>>>> I am willing to bet that
>>>> some of the garbage that some Indians spout here is a reaction to the
>>>> kind of hostility they probably face in the real workplace. Imagine the
>>>> labels of 'cheats', 'job stealers', 'thieves' ..., so cavalierly
>>>> bandied
>>>> about in a 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on
>>>> people fresh off the boat. People will take it for a while, and then
>>>> will fight back. I'll use my own case as an example. Having patiently
>>>> borne the sheer evil crap of 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and
>>>> the racist trash of the Old Poof for over a year now, you think I am
>>>
>>> You mean Old Poop :-)
>>>
>>
>> Nah, Old Poof suits this goddamn racist faggot. I am still waiting to
>> see his publications list (better include some papers on astrophysics)
>> and his claim on the Nobel. :-)
>
> Anyone can see my publication list by putting my name in
> http://scholar.google.com
>
> Then, I'd like to see their resume, or publication list, too.
>
Good luck with that.
Then Harmony too is a Paki katua. The fact that a fellow katua like
'hari kumar' got away with his shenanigans without as much as a fight
from the 'super duper hyper Hindus' here tells me that they too are Paki
katuas. No true Hindu would let a motherfucker like 'hari kumar' get
away with his attempt to equate Hinduism and Nazism.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
Hey, knock yourselves out. I can do with some entertainment. :-)
>> 'job stealers',
>
> At least a 100,000-200,000 Americans were flushed out of jobs they were
> doing for many years ...to be replaced by only Indians, and surely only
> because they could be exploited.
>
> As a matter of fact, I've even traced the term "job stealers"--using
> Google-- to being used on Indian websites, and used with happiness.
>
>> 'thieves'
>
> Mr. ID-Theif has stolen many names, including mine, and
> slanderous-insulting versions of mine (all in the archives), many times.
> And, he is surely an Indian.
>
'Real Indian' is a youngster who revels in trolling. Don't rise to the
bait. However, he gets my vote for humorous mischief for having once
posted as 'Param Poojya Shri Bevdoji Maharaj of Surat Haveli' (a term
'Myself' uses for 'Harmony'). :-)
> ..., so cavalierly bandied about in a
>> 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on people
>> fresh off the boat. People will take it for a while, and then will
>> fight back. I'll use my own case as an example. Having patiently borne
>> the sheer evil crap of 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and the
>> racist trash of the Old Poof for over a year now, you think I am going
>> to sit by silently?
>
> You're welcome to address your questions and counter-statements to them.
>
You bet I am going to.
> If y'all can
>> respond to one-sided crappiness (subjective) of articles posted by
>> phony doc, kamal, ..., why shouldn't I?
>
> Please remember-- yet again--my focus on the trade problem is not
> _Indians_ but the trade imbalance as created by the US CEOs and central
> bank manipulations (both the high USD and the low Rupee).
>
Yeah, I understand your angle. However, the 'solution' to the problem
lies in getting the rotten US representatives to get out from the
clutches of lobbyists and work for the welfare of US citizens. Dumping
on Indians is too Don Quixote-ish for me. Maybe public financing of the
election campaign process is the way to go. California is seeing just
obscene amounts of money being spent on 'dirty' campaigns - no issues
being addressed, and shit being slung back and forth 24/7. :-(
No worries.
Heh, we have similar right wing conspiracy kooks in India - 'Nehru was a
Muslim, blah, blah, ...'
>> Given time to grow, these kooks will come up with a list of people to
>> focus upon frustration, rage, and hate.
>
> The problem is analogous to Depression Germany where the minority Nazis
> _did_ get into power by exploiting the depression's effect on people
> plus all kinds of Nazi intimidation techniques.
>
>>> Beware, this is also already happening in India and China.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah, the power is getting into the hands of oligarchs. Scary!
>
> And, when governments let the rich make most of the decisions.... watch
> out. We will be headed back to the dark ages with new versions of
> "nobles" running everything.
>
Doubt it. There is a small big thing called a 'Constitution' standing in
the way. :-)
>>> Indians are not
>>>> the sole beneficiaries of US corporate greed.
>>>
>>> If they do better by coming to a job in the USA than staying in India,
>>> they benefit. If they are cheated by being paid less than average, then
>>> the CEO greed (to transfer the paycheck stolen from Indians as well as
>>> US guys to the CEO wallet) then it is really a crime against Indians,
>>> too.
>>>
>>
>> I would much rather see the H1-B program (institutionalized slavery at
>> best) done away with, and an increase in immigration quotas, in the
>> hope that the best and brightest from around the world will come to
>> this country and ensure its continued prosperity.
>
> Like a lot of things in the USA, corporate lobbyists probably designed
> the H1B and then handed the plans to our Congress for implementation.
>
I think comprehensive campaign finance reforms will end lobbyist crap.
McCain got nowhere with his ideas, but still worth keeping them on the
front burner in the hope that someday someone with any brains will find
campaign finance reform the right thing to do.
> Doing so will create jobs within the country and
>> help keep the jobs in. Assuming that the new immigrants accept the
>> American ideal and assimilate, it'll serve immensely to shrink the
>> world. Yeah, I know this is a bit idealistic.
>
> That's all fine as long as it does not turn into an American worker
> replacement program which flushes Americans out of jobs AND pays the
> immigrants less.
>
I think that laws of this country will prevent that. Besides, there will
be enough number of watchdogs to ensure that 'immigrants' do not rip off
(highest priority ;-)) or be ripped off (lowest priority).
>>>>> Oh, yes, ...I've always respected you, no? I still do.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>> You're welcome.
>>>
>>>>> And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed
>>>>> country.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I really don't know what this statement means.
>>>
>>> It means become modern and develope decent standard of living including
>>> transportation, adequate food, adequate health, education, right to
>>> self-determination, human rights.
>>>
>>
>> It is developing at such a rapid pace that there is a social
>> disconnect, a much sharper urban-rural divide. While there is
>> self-sufficiency in food (enough stockpiles), there is inefficiency
>> and corruption in the public distribution system. There are human
>> rights, although rats like 'hari kumar' will fixate on a couple two
>> things to make it look like Hindus are nazis. Health care, esp. rural
>> health care, is an issue. What is right to self determination?
>
> No, let low-castes have freedom to pursue... let all people marry who
> they want without fear of "honor killings" etc. etc.
>
Some low castes have it good already, at least good enough that higher
caste folks are tripping over their feet to be declared low castes :-)
'Honor killings' are not pandemic as the sensationalist India media and
the evil nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar' make it out to be. These reports
are dutifully carried by the Western media with a great deal of glee and
used to tar every Indian.
Me, ...again!
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
> On 8/22/2010 11:47 AM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 22 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/22/2010 7:39 AM, Tambi Dude wrote:
>>>> On Aug 22, 10:06 am, "Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu"
>>>> <KalluMallu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You got that right. _All_ countries (including the good old US of A)
>>>>> 'cheat' when it comes to trade and commerce, the only differences
>>>>> are in
>>>>> the tactics employed. Some do it with finesse (like currency
>>>>> manipulation) and some do it with propaganda (democracy, human rights,
>>>>> ...), failing which with brute force (regime change, WMDs, ...). :-)
>>>>
>>>> LOL.
>>>>
>>>> Canada accuses US of using its muscle for softwood lumber and US
>>>> accuses
>>>> Canada of putting its interest first in NAFTA and protecting Canadian
>>>> interest
>>>> first.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As the 51st state, Canada get a free pass ;-)
>>
>> You forgot the other 52nd to 99th states. ;-) All the ones running trade
>> surpluses with the US. Someday that's going to end, and then what will
>> they do? Become part of China?
>>
>
> Heh, _nobody_ gets to be part of China. All non-Han Chinese are 'barbarians'
> and hence, forbidden to even 'dream' that. :-)
What the hell, there was a sentence in a WSJ article a couple years ago
there's 50,000 foreign companies with plants in China. It said 40% are US
owned, and 40% are Japanese owned. What do you think that means? :-\
IIRC, Tibet would like to NOT be part of China, but China would not like
that. Then there's been a lot of ethnic/racism problems with the Uhigers
(spelling?), whatever. A lot of farmer protests, and recently labor
protests, suicides, and I heard the govt is going to let labor organize
into unions with real power. Sure doing better than here in USA.
If you want to read a book and become "enlightened" with the scam version
of the story, I'll get the author's name for the book entitled "The oil
follies". You can always pick, if you want, the "official" PR story, but
I'm telling you that the shit hit the fan when the oil companies were
called to a Congressional investigation and subpoenaed to bring data on
their oil inventories and all the oil companies refused to comply. And,
the whole thing ended right there.
Believe me, the oil racket is one of the biggest in the world.
>> (everything is a 'crisis' in the US, which of course results in a
>>> 'war on...'), still carpool (in Japanese imports :-)), and still live
>>> no more than 10-15 minutes from work. The dot com folks are the ones
>>> that drive swank cars, and monstrous SUVs (I recently saw one, Ford
>>> Excursion, that looked like an oil barge). I think SUVs must be
>>> declared criminal. Yeah a 'war on SUVs' would be nice - these things
>>> are really intimidating at 75-80 mph on the highways. What were the
>>> dumbshits in Ford thinking when they cranked out the Expedition and
>>> Excursion? Some other 'patriotic' ones that drive only GM and Ford,
>>> spend their time cursing about the quality the cars (esp. GM cars). :-)
>>
>> Welcome to materialistic capitalism. Its going to be in India, soon, and
>> already in China, now.
>>
>
> It is not 'going to be', it already 'is' :-)
OK, may I revise: Its already in India and China.
I have read about gated
> communities in the Silicon Valley of India - Bangalore. Apparently the gated
> communities are chockful of villas (someone please confirm this hearsay).
What the hell, I've seen in pictures of houses in Saudi Arabia (etc) and
Mexico, nice big palatial homes with cathedral ceilings and all around the
property is a concrete wall some 14 feet high, big iron gate on hinges.
If you ever get the video/movie "Man on Fire" (shot in Mexico, Mexico
city) you'll see examples of posh Mexican real estate.
>>> Being in California is nice - the weekly local farmer's market is a
>>> boon, esp. for vegetarians. You get the freshest produce.
>>
>> We have lots of farmers markets here, too. We use them quite a bit.
>>
>>>>> I'll guarantee you this much. Most Indians are not anti-white, anti-US,
>>>>> or anti-European, unless provoked incessantly.
>>>>
>>>> India is one country which has one of the best favorable view of
>>>> US, in Gallop polls year after year. Even the white European
>>>> countries dislike US more than Indians.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yup! Must be because of the artificially 'weak' rupee ;-)
>>
>> Nah.... jobs raining down on India from USA. :-)
>>
>
> Nope. Rank and file Indians wouldn't know about jobs 'raining down' on India.
Rank and file Americans are constantly hearing about or getting laid off
and just told outright: "Oh, your job is being shipped out to X"
Also, read Tambi Dude's post just made in the last one day.
> The number of Indians involved in any 'outsourced' business from the US is
> miniscule.
Jeeze, what do you want, _all_ of America's remaining 110 million jobs for
India? You'd still have the other 500 million poor Indians still be poor.
|:-|
Who has the courage besides Arindam Banerjee, who did post his resume
months ago?
I'll let you and them duke it out over that.
Have a nice day. :-)
Me, ...again!
Well, there really is quite a bit of grass-roots organizational activity
in the US attempting to spread power back down to the underlings from the
overlings. If I disappear from the NGs, then I've either croaked, or gone
to join one or more of these groups.
Some of my friends did organize some lobbying for a local issue and, dang,
it worked. The law was modified in our favor.
>>> 'job stealers',
>>
>> At least a 100,000-200,000 Americans were flushed out of jobs they were
>> doing for many years ...to be replaced by only Indians, and surely only
>> because they could be exploited.
>>
>> As a matter of fact, I've even traced the term "job stealers"--using
>> Google-- to being used on Indian websites, and used with happiness.
>>
>>> 'thieves'
>>
>> Mr. ID-Theif has stolen many names, including mine, and
>> slanderous-insulting versions of mine (all in the archives), many times.
>> And, he is surely an Indian.
>>
>
> 'Real Indian' is a youngster who revels in trolling. Don't rise to the bait.
Oh, its becoming a matter of priciple for me. You can take Kashmir
seriously and I'm not going to pick sides on that. Its not my issue.
But, Mr. IdentityTheif really crossed a line back months ago. I will be
saying more about this in the future. No smiley on this.
> However, he gets my vote for humorous mischief for having once posted as
> 'Param Poojya Shri Bevdoji Maharaj of Surat Haveli' (a term 'Myself' uses for
> 'Harmony'). :-)
That is between you, him, and whomever else it relates to.
>> ..., so cavalierly bandied about in a
>>> 'virtual' place like this newsgroup, being used for real on people
>>> fresh off the boat. People will take it for a while, and then will
>>> fight back. I'll use my own case as an example. Having patiently borne
>>> the sheer evil crap of 'hari kumar' (who is not Indian, BTW), and the
>>> racist trash of the Old Poof for over a year now, you think I am going
>>> to sit by silently?
>>
>> You're welcome to address your questions and counter-statements to them.
>>
>
> You bet I am going to.
>
>> If y'all can
>>> respond to one-sided crappiness (subjective) of articles posted by
>>> phony doc, kamal, ..., why shouldn't I?
>>
>> Please remember-- yet again--my focus on the trade problem is not
>> _Indians_ but the trade imbalance as created by the US CEOs and central
>> bank manipulations (both the high USD and the low Rupee).
>>
>
> Yeah, I understand your angle. However, the 'solution' to the problem lies in
> getting the rotten US representatives to get out from the clutches of
> lobbyists and work for the welfare of US citizens.
Its not that easy when THEY have the organizations all set up, and THEY
have the tons of money and it all turns into tax writeoffs, too, as "a
cost of doing business."
Dumping on Indians is too
> Don Quixote-ish for me. Maybe public financing of the election campaign
> process is the way to go. California is seeing just obscene amounts of money
> being spent on 'dirty' campaigns - no issues being addressed, and shit being
> slung back and forth 24/7. :-(
I have become about 99% disgusted with our political system which -- and I
can make references to a few books on this (I read them, too)--operates in
another universe that is out of touch with reality.
I don't think you have to.
Yeah, I've read some of that stuff, too, even off Indian websites.
kooks are everywhere, all lands.
>>> Given time to grow, these kooks will come up with a list of people to
>>> focus upon frustration, rage, and hate.
>>
>> The problem is analogous to Depression Germany where the minority Nazis
>> _did_ get into power by exploiting the depression's effect on people
>> plus all kinds of Nazi intimidation techniques.
>>
>>>> Beware, this is also already happening in India and China.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, the power is getting into the hands of oligarchs. Scary!
>>
>> And, when governments let the rich make most of the decisions.... watch
>> out. We will be headed back to the dark ages with new versions of
>> "nobles" running everything.
>>
>
> Doubt it. There is a small big thing called a 'Constitution' standing in the
> way. :-)
Yeah, but there are countless layers of "interpretations," local
exceptions, exploitations of loopholes, new definitions, and other legal
creations that can subvert most of the Constitution.
>>>> Indians are not
>>>>> the sole beneficiaries of US corporate greed.
>>>>
>>>> If they do better by coming to a job in the USA than staying in India,
>>>> they benefit. If they are cheated by being paid less than average, then
>>>> the CEO greed (to transfer the paycheck stolen from Indians as well as
>>>> US guys to the CEO wallet) then it is really a crime against Indians,
>>>> too.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would much rather see the H1-B program (institutionalized slavery at
>>> best) done away with, and an increase in immigration quotas, in the
>>> hope that the best and brightest from around the world will come to
>>> this country and ensure its continued prosperity.
>>
>> Like a lot of things in the USA, corporate lobbyists probably designed
>> the H1B and then handed the plans to our Congress for implementation.
>>
>
> I think comprehensive campaign finance reforms will end lobbyist crap. McCain
> got nowhere with his ideas, but still worth keeping them on the front burner
> in the hope that someday someone with any brains will find campaign finance
> reform the right thing to do.
I would be surprised if we could get past political gridlock, ever. And,
at my age, I'm close to the end of my life.
>> Doing so will create jobs within the country and
>>> help keep the jobs in. Assuming that the new immigrants accept the
>>> American ideal and assimilate, it'll serve immensely to shrink the
>>> world. Yeah, I know this is a bit idealistic.
>>
>> That's all fine as long as it does not turn into an American worker
>> replacement program which flushes Americans out of jobs AND pays the
>> immigrants less.
>>
>
> I think that laws of this country will prevent that. Besides, there will be
> enough number of watchdogs to ensure that 'immigrants' do not rip off
> (highest priority ;-)) or be ripped off (lowest priority).
Sorry, the illegal population is already very large, and I found
references to articles that even say Indians are among a fast-growing
population of illegals (see below)...
Don't take this personally.
search string:
"illegal indian immigrants in usa"
-----------------
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=illegal+indian+immigrants+in+usa&aq=1&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=illegal+indian+&gs_rfai=
------------------------------------
About 187,000 results (0.30 seconds): first page only
1.
Indian illegal immigrants in US: numbers jumped 125% since 2000 ...
Feb 23, 2008 ... The San Jose Mercury News notes that the fastest growing group of illegal immigrants to US comes from India. A recent report [pdf] from the ...
escapefromindia.wordpress.com/.../indian-illegal-immigrants-in-us-numbers-jumped-125-since-2000/ - Cached - Similar
2.
Illegal immigrants from India Increasing at a High Rate
Since the year 2000 people from India make up the group with the largest percentage increase in illegal immigration.
www.usimmigrationsupport.org/indian-immigration.html - Cached - Similar
3.
Indian immigrants on rise
Feb 19, 2008 ... Quoting a US Department of Homeland Security report, mercurynews reports ... Illegal immigrants from India rise alarmingly in US: Report ...
www.rediff.com › India › News - Cached - Similar
4.
Illegal immigrants from India rise alarmingly in US (unemployment ...
6 posts - 5 authors - Last post: Jul 27, 2009
Indian immigrants on rise My favorite part; "America is a very attractive country; everybody who comes here wants to stay," said Shah.
www.city-data.com › ... › Illegal Immigration - Cached
Why do people lump Hispanic Immigrants with Spanish Ancestry with ...? - Sep 18, 2008
Most Illegal Aliens are Mexican Indian, not Spanish (American ...? - Mar 21, 2008
Immigration and Affirmative Action (illegal immigration ...? - Oct 21, 2007
Most Illegal Aliens are Mexican Indian, not Spanish (married, born ...? - May 14, 2007
More results from city-data.com »
Get more discussion results
5.
Indian illegal immigrants in US up 64 per cent last decade
Feb 10, 2010 ... In 2009, India accounted for the third highest increase in the number of illegal immigrants in the US in ten years, according to a new ...
www.ndtv.com/.../indian_illegal_immigrants_in_us_up_64_percent_last_decade.php - Cached
6. [PDF]
Estimates of the Unauthorized Immigrant Population Residing in the ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
by L Residents - 2007 - Related articles
unauthorized immigrants living in the United States as of January 2006. Nearly 4.2 million had entered in ..... immigrants from India (125 percent), Brazil ...
www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ill_pe_2006.pdf - Similar
7.
Migration Information Source - Emigration, Immigration, and ...
As in the United States, significant immigration flows of Indians to Canada ...... Paper Citizens: How Illegal Immigrants Acquire Citizenship in Developing ...
www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=745 - Cached - Similar
8.
Immigration to the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The leading countries of birth of the new citizens were Mexico, India and ...... The U.S. Census Bureau estimated that 8.7 million illegal immigrants were ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States - Cached - Similar
9.
Magic City Morning Star: Illegal Immigration: India Invades America
Nov 29, 2007 ... Illegal Immigration: India Invades America By William H. Calhoun ... not if, an Indian detonates a backpack nuke within the United States or ...
www.magic-city-news.com/.../Illegal_Immigration_India_Invades_America7208.shtml - Cached - Similar
10.
Why Illegal Immigrants Come To America - Blogcritics Politics
Also get your facts strait illegal immigrants do pay taxis. Every american came illegal because they inveded indian terretory. ...
blogcritics.org/.../why-illegal-immigrants-come-to-america/ - 21 hours ago - Cached - Similar
Searches related to illegal indian immigrants in usa
indian immigration united states
illegal immigration united states
illegal bangladeshi immigrants in india
illegal immigration new york
Sponsored links
==================
>>>>>> Oh, yes, ...I've always respected you, no? I still do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>
>>>> You're welcome.
>>>>
>>>>>> And, I have nothing against India eventually become a developed
>>>>>> country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I really don't know what this statement means.
>>>>
>>>> It means become modern and develope decent standard of living including
>>>> transportation, adequate food, adequate health, education, right to
>>>> self-determination, human rights.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is developing at such a rapid pace that there is a social
>>> disconnect, a much sharper urban-rural divide. While there is
>>> self-sufficiency in food (enough stockpiles), there is inefficiency
>>> and corruption in the public distribution system. There are human
>>> rights, although rats like 'hari kumar' will fixate on a couple two
>>> things to make it look like Hindus are nazis. Health care, esp. rural
>>> health care, is an issue. What is right to self determination?
>>
>> No, let low-castes have freedom to pursue... let all people marry who
>> they want without fear of "honor killings" etc. etc.
>>
>
> Some low castes have it good already, at least good enough that higher caste
> folks are tripping over their feet to be declared low castes :-) 'Honor
> killings' are not pandemic as the sensationalist India media and the evil
> nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar' make it out to be. These reports are dutifully
> carried by the Western media with a great deal of glee and used to tar every
> Indian.
I'm less concerned with the details than the broad situation.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
>
>
> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>
>> Hey, knock yourselves out. I can do with some entertainment. :-)
>
> Well, there really is quite a bit of grass-roots organizational activity
> in the US attempting to spread power back down to the underlings from
> the overlings. If I disappear from the NGs, then I've either croaked, or
> gone to join one or more of these groups.
>
> Some of my friends did organize some lobbying for a local issue and,
> dang, it worked. The law was modified in our favor.
>
That is good. More power to you.
>
> Oh, its becoming a matter of priciple for me. You can take Kashmir
> seriously and I'm not going to pick sides on that. Its not my issue.
>
> But, Mr. IdentityTheif really crossed a line back months ago. I will be
> saying more about this in the future. No smiley on this.
>
ID Thief, or Real Indian, or Mr. India, or whatever is your problem. My
own feeling is that ain't nothing going to change - there will be some
broad brush anti-US stuff, and as night follows day, there will be
anti-Indian stuff from you. I think I'll stay out of that exchange. I am
equally comfortable in both countries. :-)
>> Yeah, I understand your angle. However, the 'solution' to the problem
>> lies in getting the rotten US representatives to get out from the
>> clutches of lobbyists and work for the welfare of US citizens.
>
> Its not that easy when THEY have the organizations all set up, and THEY
> have the tons of money and it all turns into tax writeoffs, too, as "a
> cost of doing business."
>
Well, until lobbyists' wings are clipped, nothing much is going to change.
> Dumping on Indians is too
>> Don Quixote-ish for me. Maybe public financing of the election
>> campaign process is the way to go. California is seeing just obscene
>> amounts of money being spent on 'dirty' campaigns - no issues being
>> addressed, and shit being slung back and forth 24/7. :-(
>
> I have become about 99% disgusted with our political system which -- and
> I can make references to a few books on this (I read them,
> too)--operates in another universe that is out of touch with reality.
>
It is not that US politics is out of touch with reality. It is quite in
touch with reality, but is completely corrupt. Elections are bought here
with just obscene amounts of money. Corruption at the highest political
levels is not good. It breeds apathy and cynicism.
>>
>> Doubt it. There is a small big thing called a 'Constitution' standing
>> in the way. :-)
>
> Yeah, but there are countless layers of "interpretations," local
> exceptions, exploitations of loopholes, new definitions, and other legal
> creations that can subvert most of the Constitution.
>
:-) :-) Is there any such species as an unemployed lawyer???
>> I think comprehensive campaign finance reforms will end lobbyist crap.
>> McCain got nowhere with his ideas, but still worth keeping them on the
>> front burner in the hope that someday someone with any brains will
>> find campaign finance reform the right thing to do.
>
> I would be surprised if we could get past political gridlock, ever. And,
> at my age, I'm close to the end of my life.
>
Heh, some of the campaigners here are running a familiar campaign of how
they are 'outsiders' in a well-entrenched political system, and how
they're going to clean house (with their own campaign money), and put
power back in peoples' hands. There is no clear spelling out on the how
bit. :-)
>>
>> I think that laws of this country will prevent that. Besides, there
>> will be enough number of watchdogs to ensure that 'immigrants' do not
>> rip off (highest priority ;-)) or be ripped off (lowest priority).
>
> Sorry, the illegal population is already very large, and I found
> references to articles that even say Indians are among a fast-growing
> population of illegals (see below)...
>
> Don't take this personally.
>
Interesting. No, I won't take it personally. However, I'll note that
there are whole lot of other 'illegal' folks too - from Europe, no less :-)
> search string:
> "illegal indian immigrants in usa"
> -----------------
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=illegal+indian+immigrants+in+usa&aq=1&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=illegal+indian+&gs_rfai=
>
>
>>
>> Some low castes have it good already, at least good enough that higher
>> caste folks are tripping over their feet to be declared low castes :-)
>> 'Honor killings' are not pandemic as the sensationalist India media
>> and the evil nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar' make it out to be. These
>> reports are dutifully carried by the Western media with a great deal
>> of glee and used to tar every Indian.
>
> I'm less concerned with the details than the broad situation.
>
But I am concerned with the details of this as it relates to India. I
guess it would be the same attitude that some Indians have about the US
- less concern for the details than the broad situation.
Me, ...again!
On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
> On 8/24/2010 5:51 AM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, knock yourselves out. I can do with some entertainment. :-)
>>
>> Well, there really is quite a bit of grass-roots organizational activity
>> in the US attempting to spread power back down to the underlings from
>> the overlings. If I disappear from the NGs, then I've either croaked, or
>> gone to join one or more of these groups.
>>
>> Some of my friends did organize some lobbying for a local issue and,
>> dang, it worked. The law was modified in our favor.
>>
>
> That is good. More power to you.
Well, it was pretty minor compared to the problem that our corporations
and rich people control our politicians in such a manner that it
almost doesn't matter which party gets elected. tsk, tsk. <:-(
>>
>> Oh, its becoming a matter of priciple for me. You can take Kashmir
>> seriously and I'm not going to pick sides on that. Its not my issue.
>>
>> But, Mr. IdentityTheif really crossed a line back months ago. I will be
>> saying more about this in the future. No smiley on this.
>>
>
> ID Thief, or Real Indian, or Mr. India, or whatever is your problem. My own
> feeling is that ain't nothing going to change - there will be some broad
> brush anti-US stuff, and as night follows day, there will be anti-Indian
> stuff from you. I think I'll stay out of that exchange. I am equally
> comfortable in both countries. :-)
There will always be some name-calling in both directions. I can deal with
that. But if someone else puts _my_ name on a piece of writing, no matter
what it is, that is crossing a line. It is actually quite rare, but it is
malicious. I have no problem with aliases, but most people keep just one
for a long time. But there are a few cases (I also found by search
engines) of some people putting someone else's name on their writings.
Just start to think if any kind of crime takes place and the criminal
drops your name on a piece of paper at the crime scene. Might seem funny
to the one who does this, but YOU are really innocent. Mr. IdentityTheif
wants to play "games" with me? OK, we will see what happens. I am spending
some hours on this project. He wants to change his alias to anything he
wants, including the names of several other people? I think we have some
recent laws about ID and I also know we have some other new discussions
that anonymity on the Internet is starting to cause some problems and in
the context that it helps the more irresponsible ones to abuse their
freedom of speech.
>>> Yeah, I understand your angle. However, the 'solution' to the problem
>>> lies in getting the rotten US representatives to get out from the
>>> clutches of lobbyists and work for the welfare of US citizens.
>>
>> Its not that easy when THEY have the organizations all set up, and THEY
>> have the tons of money and it all turns into tax writeoffs, too, as "a
>> cost of doing business."
>>
>
> Well, until lobbyists' wings are clipped, nothing much is going to change.
Yes, and I think there may be hope. It was only from mid 1800s up to mid
1900s that representatives could be actually elected by most if not all of
the people in so many countries around the world. Before that it was only
the nobles, kings/emperors, churches(etc) that decided what will be. Some
of our states have had populist actions (tax protests in California, and a
govenor was recalled in Michigan after immediately breaking a promise made
during campaigning), and people have to organize better and get involved,
to get these guys under control. Technically, corporations are chartered
by state govt and state senators and representatives _could_ get these
corporations under better control if they would just not be so lazy.
>> Dumping on Indians is too
>>> Don Quixote-ish for me. Maybe public financing of the election
>>> campaign process is the way to go. California is seeing just obscene
>>> amounts of money being spent on 'dirty' campaigns - no issues being
>>> addressed, and shit being slung back and forth 24/7. :-(
>>
>> I have become about 99% disgusted with our political system which -- and
>> I can make references to a few books on this (I read them,
>> too)--operates in another universe that is out of touch with reality.
>>
>
> It is not that US politics is out of touch with reality. It is quite in touch
> with reality, but is completely corrupt. Elections are bought here with just
> obscene amounts of money. Corruption at the highest political levels is not
> good. It breeds apathy and cynicism.
We had many books, just a couple: on Viet Nam, two books by our former
Secy of Defense, Robert McNamara: he admitted, in so many of his own
words, the _we_ (meaning the US administrations) fucked up, royaly.
Another book: "The Color of Truth" by Kai Bird (I read this one, too),
said that McGeorge Bundy (IIRC, Security Advisor to prez), after deep
analysis in this biography, _knew_ that we (the USA) could not win the
war and he knew this years before the US pulled out, and what did he do?
He just kept his mouth shut and let the disaster roll on. Mr. Kai Bird
rightfully suggested that if Bundy did offer "resistance" to the
continuation of the war, that maybe it would have ended sooner. I know
some social psychology and as a social phenomenon it is true that if
you have a stampede of wild horses going in some direction, sometimes
only a few dissenters can change the course of history.
Iraq: the jury is still out. I'm still voting we should have never gone
there; other wise voices say it was about oil, not democracy.
Afghan: another big mess. The only thing I don't know about are the
secret-classified information that only the big muck-mucks see, not what
is in the press release watered-down pap we get in the media. Otherwise,
my inclination is thumbs down on that, and maybe Pakiland, too. But, I
can't predict if instability in Pakiland could lead to a failed state, and
if that could lead to it all spilling over into neighboring states which
would be worse for everyone. You're welcome to offer your deeper thoughts
on this.
>>>
>>> Doubt it. There is a small big thing called a 'Constitution' standing
>>> in the way. :-)
>>
>> Yeah, but there are countless layers of "interpretations," local
>> exceptions, exploitations of loopholes, new definitions, and other legal
>> creations that can subvert most of the Constitution.
>>
>
> :-) :-) Is there any such species as an unemployed lawyer???
Actually, yes. When the economy goes to crap, then these asshole arrogant
egotistical CEOs have reduced net profits and actually can't afford to sue
anyone. Its a fact. Yes. Just after we entered the current recession,
there were some pretty big layoffs in legal firms as well as
stockbroker/financial firms.
>>> I think comprehensive campaign finance reforms will end lobbyist crap.
>>> McCain got nowhere with his ideas, but still worth keeping them on the
>>> front burner in the hope that someday someone with any brains will
>>> find campaign finance reform the right thing to do.
>>
>> I would be surprised if we could get past political gridlock, ever. And,
>> at my age, I'm close to the end of my life.
>>
>
> Heh, some of the campaigners here are running a familiar campaign of how they
> are 'outsiders' in a well-entrenched political system, and how they're going
> to clean house (with their own campaign money), and put power back in
> peoples' hands. There is no clear spelling out on the how bit. :-)
All big platitudes of nothingness. All sounds good on paper. Yes, details
are always strangely missing. Spin, hype, hucksterism, hoopla. Hot air is
very cheap, too.
>>>
>>> I think that laws of this country will prevent that. Besides, there
>>> will be enough number of watchdogs to ensure that 'immigrants' do not
>>> rip off (highest priority ;-)) or be ripped off (lowest priority).
>>
>> Sorry, the illegal population is already very large, and I found
>> references to articles that even say Indians are among a fast-growing
>> population of illegals (see below)...
>>
>> Don't take this personally.
>>
>
> Interesting. No, I won't take it personally. However, I'll note that there
> are whole lot of other 'illegal' folks too - from Europe, no less :-)
The biggest is Mexican/LatinAmericans.
>> search string:
>> "illegal indian immigrants in usa"
>> -----------------
>> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=illegal+indian+immigrants+in+usa&aq=1&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=illegal+indian+&gs_rfai=
>>
>>
>
>
>>>
>>> Some low castes have it good already, at least good enough that higher
>>> caste folks are tripping over their feet to be declared low castes :-)
>>> 'Honor killings' are not pandemic as the sensationalist India media
>>> and the evil nazi jihadi rat 'hari kumar' make it out to be. These
>>> reports are dutifully carried by the Western media with a great deal
>>> of glee and used to tar every Indian.
>>
>> I'm less concerned with the details than the broad situation.
>>
>
> But I am concerned with the details of this as it relates to India. I guess
> it would be the same attitude that some Indians have about the US - less
> concern for the details than the broad situation.
And, my concern about the details of Indian criticism of US past bad
history is when Indians forget that the details of Indian past
history are also pretty bad, too.
However, there is an optimistic side of history: the better governments do
try--at least a little--to improve life, in some ways, for the greatest
good for the greatest number. Of course, the few scumbags try to subvert
that into the greatest good for the smaller numbers (i.e. the
rich/powerful). tsk, tsk.
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>
>> On 8/24/2010 5:51 AM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey, knock yourselves out. I can do with some entertainment. :-)
>>>
>>> Well, there really is quite a bit of grass-roots organizational activity
>>> in the US attempting to spread power back down to the underlings from
>>> the overlings. If I disappear from the NGs, then I've either croaked, or
>>> gone to join one or more of these groups.
>>>
>>> Some of my friends did organize some lobbying for a local issue and,
>>> dang, it worked. The law was modified in our favor.
>>>
>>
>> That is good. More power to you.
>
> Well, it was pretty minor compared to the problem that our corporations
> and rich people control our politicians in such a manner that it almost
> doesn't matter which party gets elected. tsk, tsk. <:-(
>
Local politics and government are the only things that one has some sort
of control over. Better to make use of that power to better things
locally, no? California takes it to the extreme by having a billion
propositions on the ballot every election - it is almost as though
elected representatives have abdicated all their responsibilities.
Your problem with 'Real Indian' is for you to settle. 'Myself' will stay
out of that one.
>>>> Yeah, I understand your angle. However, the 'solution' to the problem
>>>> lies in getting the rotten US representatives to get out from the
>>>> clutches of lobbyists and work for the welfare of US citizens.
>>>
>>> Its not that easy when THEY have the organizations all set up, and THEY
>>> have the tons of money and it all turns into tax writeoffs, too, as "a
>>> cost of doing business."
>>>
>>
>> Well, until lobbyists' wings are clipped, nothing much is going to
>> change.
>
> Yes, and I think there may be hope. It was only from mid 1800s up to mid
> 1900s that representatives could be actually elected by most if not all
> of the people in so many countries around the world. Before that it was
> only the nobles, kings/emperors, churches(etc) that decided what will
> be. Some of our states have had populist actions (tax protests in
> California, and a govenor was recalled in Michigan after immediately
> breaking a promise made during campaigning), and people have to organize
> better and get involved, to get these guys under control. Technically,
> corporations are chartered by state govt and state senators and
> representatives _could_ get these corporations under better control if
> they would just not be so lazy.
>
A governor was recalled in California too, and poor Gray Davis never got
to say, "I'll be baack!" Thanks heavens. This guy was done in by Enron's
games, facilitated in part by his 'free market' predecessor. ;-)
It has _always_ been the moneyed elite anywhere on the globe that has
governed people, driven cultural/social mores, ... One can only hope
that the moneyed elite is ethical enough to do some good. I really doubt
it if Joe Six-Pack can do anything about the elite or if he even really
cares. However, he would lead the rabble come crunch time. ;-)
Most elected representatives, esp. senators, suffer from too much ego
bloat - from too much power, I guess - to do anything but right. Gawd,
some of these guys can warm a room in dead winter without the use of an
HVAC system.
The paranoia about Commies (esp. the Soviet Union) and them taking over
everything led to major miscalculations on the part of the US. But
Tricky Dick and Hank stood all that commie paranoia on its head and sold
the US down the river to the Chinese.
> Iraq: the jury is still out. I'm still voting we should have never gone
> there; other wise voices say it was about oil, not democracy.
>
> Afghan: another big mess. The only thing I don't know about are the
> secret-classified information that only the big muck-mucks see, not what
> is in the press release watered-down pap we get in the media. Otherwise,
> my inclination is thumbs down on that, and maybe Pakiland, too. But, I
> can't predict if instability in Pakiland could lead to a failed state,
> and if that could lead to it all spilling over into neighboring states
> which would be worse for everyone. You're welcome to offer your deeper
> thoughts on this.
>
The wars with Iraq were plain stupid, even if oil was the sole cause. Of
all the Middle Eastern countries, this one was progressive and did not
have a lot of hyper-religious baboons running the show. If any place on
this planet needs a 'regime change,' it would Saudi Barbaria. These
knuckledraggers are the root cause of all problems, including the one in
Afghanistan and Pakistan. It really flies in the face of any reasonably
intelligent human, and sullies the memories of WTC victims, if these
Saudi Barbarian baboons are allowed to fund/construct a mosque at Ground
Zero. I want to be spared the abject self-righteous crap about 'founding
fathers' and 'secularism' by the Prez or other left-wing loonies, and I
do not really believe the 'religion of peace' hogwash either.
>>>>
>>>> Doubt it. There is a small big thing called a 'Constitution' standing
>>>> in the way. :-)
>>>
>>> Yeah, but there are countless layers of "interpretations," local
>>> exceptions, exploitations of loopholes, new definitions, and other legal
>>> creations that can subvert most of the Constitution.
>>>
>>
>> :-) :-) Is there any such species as an unemployed lawyer???
>
> Actually, yes. When the economy goes to crap, then these asshole
> arrogant egotistical CEOs have reduced net profits and actually can't
> afford to sue anyone. Its a fact. Yes. Just after we entered the current
> recession, there were some pretty big layoffs in legal firms as well as
> stockbroker/financial firms.
>
But the temporarily unemployed do conjure up elegant schemes
('propositions') to get back in the market.
Indians in India are very well aware of their past history, and don't
let India forget about it either, i.e., there is enough introspection
and self-criticism in India. Just because it does not happen in this
newsgroup doesn't mean it does not exist. There is more than enough
political and social activism in India. Now if only the Maoist baboons
can lay down their arms. :-)
The often one-sided views expressed here by Indians (or perhaps even
Americans of Indian ethnicity) are probably not being too deeply read
about US history, or perhaps even a very nuanced interpretation of it.
Dunno how to deal with this in a balanced manner, but I'll say
bash-counterbash ain't working.
> However, there is an optimistic side of history: the better governments
> do try--at least a little--to improve life, in some ways, for the
> greatest good for the greatest number. Of course, the few scumbags try
> to subvert
> that into the greatest good for the smaller numbers (i.e. the
> rich/powerful). tsk, tsk.
>
>
Yeah, but the number of scumbags has increased manifold over the last
decade. :-)
Me, ...again!
On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
> On 8/26/2010 4:53 AM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/24/2010 5:51 AM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 23 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey, knock yourselves out. I can do with some entertainment. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Well, there really is quite a bit of grass-roots organizational activity
>>>> in the US attempting to spread power back down to the underlings from
>>>> the overlings. If I disappear from the NGs, then I've either croaked, or
>>>> gone to join one or more of these groups.
>>>>
>>>> Some of my friends did organize some lobbying for a local issue and,
>>>> dang, it worked. The law was modified in our favor.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That is good. More power to you.
>>
>> Well, it was pretty minor compared to the problem that our corporations
>> and rich people control our politicians in such a manner that it almost
>> doesn't matter which party gets elected. tsk, tsk. <:-(
>>
>
> Local politics and government are the only things that one has some sort of
> control over. Better to make use of that power to better things locally, no?
Well, all corporations are chartered only by state governments. In theory
they are under the control of those states. Trouble is, the politicians
like campaign contributions (i.e. $), so, the power structure is the other
way around.
> California takes it to the extreme by having a billion propositions on the
> ballot every election - it is almost as though elected representatives have
> abdicated all their responsibilities.
Its not that simple. But, sometimes people can get some control over
_some_ of what goes on. The other trouble is that when you have N interest
groups, you have N approaches to a problem, and maybe none of the N
approaches are good, and in the end, only the special interest group with
the most votes gets what they want and everyone else does not get what
they wany. Something like a "catch-22" quandry.
Good idea.
A pretty big fraction of the time, those in power can "juggle the books"
and circumvent laws (eg. with exploitation of loopholes, or discovering
loopholes) so that the crooks can get away with anything.
> Most elected representatives, esp. senators, suffer from too much ego bloat -
> from too much power, I guess - to do anything but right. Gawd, some of these
> guys can warm a room in dead winter without the use of an HVAC system.
There are also "trend emphases" which make no sense when you extrapolate
into the rest of reality: Republicans tend to be the war-mongers, and also
tend to think less government is better, but somehow defense spending is
not part of government. All my life, they want to cut programs that
benefit at least some fraction of the population and at the same time
expand defense spending. They also like to cut taxes, preferentially for
the rich, but don't want to talk about cutting govt debt. And, reducing
govt regulation is something started in Reagan's time, and look what it
gave us: current biggest recession since 1930s. Of course, the
conservatives will put the blame game on liberal democrats for wanting to
"redistribute" the wealth, but Lehman, Bear Stearns, AIG (etc) had nothing
to do with the govt.
They were the errand boys. The real crooks were the rich who got richer on
US business and business transactions. Easy lession: just read the Forbes
"richest people" issue that comes out every year.
>> Iraq: the jury is still out. I'm still voting we should have never gone
>> there; other wise voices say it was about oil, not democracy.
>>
>> Afghan: another big mess. The only thing I don't know about are the
>> secret-classified information that only the big muck-mucks see, not what
>> is in the press release watered-down pap we get in the media. Otherwise,
>> my inclination is thumbs down on that, and maybe Pakiland, too. But, I
>> can't predict if instability in Pakiland could lead to a failed state,
>> and if that could lead to it all spilling over into neighboring states
>> which would be worse for everyone. You're welcome to offer your deeper
>> thoughts on this.
>>
>
> The wars with Iraq were plain stupid, even if oil was the sole cause. Of all
> the Middle Eastern countries, this one was progressive and did not have a lot
> of hyper-religious baboons running the show. If any place on this planet
> needs a 'regime change,' it would Saudi Barbaria. These knuckledraggers are
> the root cause of all problems, including the one in Afghanistan and
> Pakistan. It really flies in the face of any reasonably intelligent human,
> and sullies the memories of WTC victims, if these Saudi Barbarian baboons are
> allowed to fund/construct a mosque at Ground Zero. I want to be spared the
> abject self-righteous crap about 'founding fathers' and 'secularism' by the
> Prez or other left-wing loonies, and I do not really believe the 'religion of
> peace' hogwash either.
Yeah, I think the Mosque at GZ idea was a bad idea. Maybe slightly
different reasons than yours.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doubt it. There is a small big thing called a 'Constitution' standing
>>>>> in the way. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, but there are countless layers of "interpretations," local
>>>> exceptions, exploitations of loopholes, new definitions, and other legal
>>>> creations that can subvert most of the Constitution.
>>>>
>>>
>>> :-) :-) Is there any such species as an unemployed lawyer???
>>
>> Actually, yes. When the economy goes to crap, then these asshole
>> arrogant egotistical CEOs have reduced net profits and actually can't
>> afford to sue anyone. Its a fact. Yes. Just after we entered the current
>> recession, there were some pretty big layoffs in legal firms as well as
>> stockbroker/financial firms.
>>
>
> But the temporarily unemployed do conjure up elegant schemes ('propositions')
> to get back in the market.
I'm not sure but I think the less profitable lawyers change careers or go
private practice in one-horse offices, or smaller groups. The big law
firms -- when they re-expand-- just go and recruit new, fresh, younger
"servants-of-money" that just come out of law schools.
I've seen that also on Indian websites.
> The often one-sided views expressed here by Indians (or perhaps even
> Americans of Indian ethnicity) are probably not being too deeply read about
> US history, or perhaps even a very nuanced interpretation of it. Dunno how to
> deal with this in a balanced manner, but I'll say bash-counterbash ain't
> working.
Simple pointing to actual history books isn't either. The guilty parties
prefer to stick with bash. So, if I see a bash coming my way, then my bash
is going to where that bash came from.
You might also consider that I've seen sellective India/Indian bashing by
other Indians, depending on what version of Indian history is in conflict,
what historical person is being discussed, what issues or local problem is
being discussed. I stay out of those debates.
>> However, there is an optimistic side of history: the better governments
>> do try--at least a little--to improve life, in some ways, for the
>> greatest good for the greatest number. Of course, the few scumbags try
>> to subvert
>> that into the greatest good for the smaller numbers (i.e. the
>> rich/powerful). tsk, tsk.
>
> Yeah, but the number of scumbags has increased manifold over the last decade.
> :-)
You got that right!
Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu
To me, this campaign contributions bit is an easy one to fix. Costs of
an election can be underwritten by the governments (state or federal)
with a cap (limits depending on inflation) on how much a candidate can
spend. While this assures a level playing field, it will also bring out
kooks. However, kooks can be put out of business quickly by requiring a
fairly steep security deposit to contest - the deposit is forfeited if a
candidate does not get at least 10% of the total vote.
>> California takes it to the extreme by having a billion propositions on
>> the ballot every election - it is almost as though elected
>> representatives have abdicated all their responsibilities.
>
> Its not that simple. But, sometimes people can get some control over
> _some_ of what goes on. The other trouble is that when you have N
> interest groups, you have N approaches to a problem, and maybe none of
> the N approaches are good, and in the end, only the special interest
> group with the most votes gets what they want and everyone else does not
> get what they wany. Something like a "catch-22" quandry.
>
I personally hate this ballot initiative nonsense, esp. when I pay to
have representatives in Sacramento. Why aren't these folks doing their
job? They do meet with people frequently enough to know what the
problems are, and to frequently talk to their colleagues (hopefully
across party lines) to know to do the right thing. But they don't.
Instead they prefer, what is essentially, anarchy, and let the most
vocal partisan groups take control. The issues don't end with the
ballot, but drag on through the court system with suits, counter-suits,
and appeals.
I find losers in elections/initiatives to be less than graceful in
defeat, and would much rather spend time trying to sabotage any
reasonable progress a victor could make. Personal interests and
political jihadism rule the day, leaving any notion of an ordered polite
society in a shambles. More than half the mumbo-jumbo initiative artists
are absolute con jobs.
Finding loopholes in the laws, esp. tax laws, seems to be a favorite
American pastime every April. :-)
>> Most elected representatives, esp. senators, suffer from too much ego
>> bloat - from too much power, I guess - to do anything but right. Gawd,
>> some of these guys can warm a room in dead winter without the use of
>> an HVAC system.
>
> There are also "trend emphases" which make no sense when you extrapolate
> into the rest of reality: Republicans tend to be the war-mongers, and
> also tend to think less government is better, but somehow defense
> spending is not part of government. All my life, they want to cut
> programs that benefit at least some fraction of the population and at
> the same time expand defense spending. They also like to cut taxes,
> preferentially for the rich, but don't want to talk about cutting govt
> debt. And, reducing govt regulation is something started in Reagan's
> time, and look what it gave us: current biggest recession since 1930s.
> Of course, the conservatives will put the blame game on liberal
> democrats for wanting to "redistribute" the wealth, but Lehman, Bear
> Stearns, AIG (etc) had nothing to do with the govt.
>
Republicans have fewer issues to deal with if they manage to keep big
government out of peoples lives. ;-) Democrats on the other hand, do not
have a problem with glomming on to any issue as long as they can have
fun doing so with my money - 'redistributing the wealth' to all,
including some for themselves (preferably in refrigerators). ;-)
Somewhere there is a middle path that is fiscally responsible and
conservative, while being socially liberal. These two ideas do not
converge in either party today, although Republicans stand a better
chance of becoming more socially liberal. :-)
Hah, time to get big government into corporate America and keep a watch
on rats with the right minimum regulation (yeah, there will be a
bureaucracy bloat).
Then we have the new Tea 'Nazi' Party.
Tricky Dick an errand boy? This guy was 'capo di capi'.
>>> Iraq: the jury is still out. I'm still voting we should have never gone
>>> there; other wise voices say it was about oil, not democracy.
>>>
>>> Afghan: another big mess. The only thing I don't know about are the
>>> secret-classified information that only the big muck-mucks see, not what
>>> is in the press release watered-down pap we get in the media. Otherwise,
>>> my inclination is thumbs down on that, and maybe Pakiland, too. But, I
>>> can't predict if instability in Pakiland could lead to a failed state,
>>> and if that could lead to it all spilling over into neighboring states
>>> which would be worse for everyone. You're welcome to offer your deeper
>>> thoughts on this.
>>>
>>
>> The wars with Iraq were plain stupid, even if oil was the sole cause.
>> Of all the Middle Eastern countries, this one was progressive and did
>> not have a lot of hyper-religious baboons running the show. If any
>> place on this planet needs a 'regime change,' it would Saudi Barbaria.
>> These knuckledraggers are the root cause of all problems, including
>> the one in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It really flies in the face of
>> any reasonably intelligent human, and sullies the memories of WTC
>> victims, if these Saudi Barbarian baboons are allowed to
>> fund/construct a mosque at Ground Zero. I want to be spared the abject
>> self-righteous crap about 'founding fathers' and 'secularism' by the
>> Prez or other left-wing loonies, and I do not really believe the
>> 'religion of peace' hogwash either.
>
> Yeah, I think the Mosque at GZ idea was a bad idea. Maybe slightly
> different reasons than yours.
>
Which are...?
Me, ...again!
On Sun, 29 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
> On 8/28/2010 3:08 PM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 28 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/26/2010 4:53 AM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2010, Myself, PresentContinuouslyTenseMallu wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 8/24/2010 5:51 AM, Me, ...again! wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>> doesn't matter which party gets elected. tsk, tsk. <:-(
>>>>
>>>
>>> Local politics and government are the only things that one has some
>>> sort of control over. Better to make use of that power to better
>>> things locally, no?
>>
>> Well, all corporations are chartered only by state governments. In
>> theory they are under the control of those states. Trouble is, the
>> politicians like campaign contributions (i.e. $), so, the power
>> structure is the other way around.
>>
>
> To me, this campaign contributions bit is an easy one to fix. Costs of an
> election can be underwritten by the governments (state or federal) with a cap
> (limits depending on inflation) on how much a candidate can spend. While this
> assures a level playing field, it will also bring out kooks. However, kooks
> can be put out of business quickly by requiring a fairly steep security
> deposit to contest - the deposit is forfeited if a candidate does not get at
> least 10% of the total vote.
Nice idea on paper. Get the politicians to make it law? Fat chance.
P.S. I have my "dream" ideas, too. I'll spare you the time.
>>> California takes it to the extreme by having a billion propositions on
>>> the ballot every election - it is almost as though elected
>>> representatives have abdicated all their responsibilities.
>>
>> Its not that simple. But, sometimes people can get some control over
>> _some_ of what goes on. The other trouble is that when you have N
>> interest groups, you have N approaches to a problem, and maybe none of
>> the N approaches are good, and in the end, only the special interest
>> group with the most votes gets what they want and everyone else does not
>> get what they wany. Something like a "catch-22" quandry.
>>
>
> I personally hate this ballot initiative nonsense, esp. when I pay to have
> representatives in Sacramento. Why aren't these folks doing their job? They
> do meet with people frequently enough to know what the problems are,
Its usually the lobbyists that get the appointments. Especially if the
lobbyists can show they are rich, or they can swing lots of votes (eg. our
NRA).
and to
> frequently talk to their colleagues (hopefully across party lines) to know to
> do the right thing. But they don't. Instead they prefer, what is essentially,
> anarchy, and let the most vocal partisan groups take control. The issues
> don't end with the ballot, but drag on through the court system with suits,
> counter-suits, and appeals.
>
> I find losers in elections/initiatives to be less than graceful in defeat,
> and would much rather spend time trying to sabotage any reasonable progress a
> victor could make. Personal interests and political jihadism rule the day,
> leaving any notion of an ordered polite society in a shambles. More than half
> the mumbo-jumbo initiative artists are absolute con jobs.
Today, power means money. These guys will do anything to get into power.
No politeness, no fairness, no justice.
>>>> Yes, and I think there may be hope. It was only from mid 1800s up to mid
>>>> 1900s that representatives could be actually elected by most if not all
>>>> of the people in so many countries around the world. Before that it was
>>>> only the nobles, kings/emperors, churches(etc) that decided what will
>>>> be. Some of our states have had populist actions (tax protests in
>>>> California, and a govenor was recalled in Michigan after immediately
>>>> breaking a promise made during campaigning), and people have to organize
>>>> better and get involved, to get these guys under control. Technically,
>>>> corporations are chartered by state govt and state senators and
>>>> representatives _could_ get these corporations under better control if
>>>> they would just not be so lazy.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A governor was recalled in California too, and poor Gray Davis never
>>> got to say, "I'll be baack!" Thanks heavens. This guy was done in by
>>> Enron's games, facilitated in part by his 'free market' predecessor. ;-)
>>>
>>> It has _always_ been the moneyed elite anywhere on the globe that has
>>> governed people, driven cultural/social mores, ... One can only hope
>>> that the moneyed elite is ethical enough to do some good. I really
>>> doubt it if Joe Six-Pack can do anything about the elite or if he even
>>> really cares. However, he would lead the rabble come crunch time. ;-)
>>
>> A pretty big fraction of the time, those in power can "juggle the books"
>> and circumvent laws (eg. with exploitation of loopholes, or discovering
>> loopholes) so that the crooks can get away with anything.
>>
>
> Finding loopholes in the laws, esp. tax laws, seems to be a favorite American
> pastime every April. :-)
Oh, that's the rich guys. The corporations play that, too, and they cheat
on taxes as well. The guys who are pretty honest are the little guys who
don't have access to high powered CPAs, tax attorneys, etc., who know all
the cheats/tricks/sneaks.
>>> Most elected representatives, esp. senators, suffer from too much ego
>>> bloat - from too much power, I guess - to do anything but right. Gawd,
>>> some of these guys can warm a room in dead winter without the use of
>>> an HVAC system.
>>
>> There are also "trend emphases" which make no sense when you extrapolate
>> into the rest of reality: Republicans tend to be the war-mongers, and
>> also tend to think less government is better, but somehow defense
>> spending is not part of government. All my life, they want to cut
>> programs that benefit at least some fraction of the population and at
>> the same time expand defense spending. They also like to cut taxes,
>> preferentially for the rich, but don't want to talk about cutting govt
>> debt. And, reducing govt regulation is something started in Reagan's
>> time, and look what it gave us: current biggest recession since 1930s.
>> Of course, the conservatives will put the blame game on liberal
>> democrats for wanting to "redistribute" the wealth, but Lehman, Bear
>> Stearns, AIG (etc) had nothing to do with the govt.
>>
>
> Republicans have fewer issues to deal with if they manage to keep big
> government out of peoples lives. ;-) Democrats on the other hand, do not have
> a problem with glomming on to any issue as long as they can have fun doing so
> with my money - 'redistributing the wealth' to all, including some for
> themselves (preferably in refrigerators). ;-) Somewhere there is a middle
> path that is fiscally responsible and conservative, while being socially
> liberal. These two ideas do not converge in either party today, although
> Republicans stand a better chance of becoming more socially liberal. :-)
There is more to it than all that, and I'll defer on writing a big long
essay on that, too.
> Hah, time to get big government into corporate America and keep a watch on
> rats with the right minimum regulation (yeah, there will be a bureaucracy
> bloat).
The bureacracy bloat will get worse, just like managerial bloat alreay has
gotten worse. In the old days there was a president of a corporation, then
vice presidents. Now: we have CEOs, CFOs, CXOs, CCOs, CTOs, COOs, CCs, and
I left out about six more, then all the vice presidents, and possibly senior
vice presidents, and then assistant, associate VPs, And, all the
secretaries, assistants, coordinators, liasons, etc. And, there's a lot
under "etc," too. Don't forget: they're all executives, so they get
executive compensation packages which are different (bigger, safer, more
interest paid) than what the underlings get. Plus the severance pay
(golden parachute).
> Then we have the new Tea 'Nazi' Party.
Yes.
>>>> We had many books, just a couple: on Viet Nam, two books by our former
>>>> Secy of Defense, Robert McNamara: he admitted, in so many of his own
>>>> words, the _we_ (meaning the US administrations) fucked up, royaly.
>>>> Another book: "The Color of Truth" by Kai Bird (I read this one, too),
>>>> said that McGeorge Bundy (IIRC, Security Advisor to prez), after deep
>>>> analysis in this biography, _knew_ that we (the USA) could not win the
>>>> war and he knew this years before the US pulled out, and what did he do?
>>>> He just kept his mouth shut and let the disaster roll on. Mr. Kai Bird
>>>> rightfully suggested that if Bundy did offer "resistance" to the
>>>> continuation of the war, that maybe it would have ended sooner. I know
>>>> some social psychology and as a social phenomenon it is true that if
>>>> you have a stampede of wild horses going in some direction, sometimes
>>>> only a few dissenters can change the course of history.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The paranoia about Commies (esp. the Soviet Union) and them taking
>>> over everything led to major miscalculations on the part of the US.
>>> But Tricky Dick and Hank stood all that commie paranoia on its head
>>> and sold the US down the river to the Chinese.
>>
>> They were the errand boys. The real crooks were the rich who got richer
>> on US business and business transactions. Easy lession: just read the
>> Forbes "richest people" issue that comes out every year.
>>
>
> Tricky Dick an errand boy? This guy was 'capo di capi'.
He stepped in deep doo-doo. Spiro Agnew, too. I watched him (SA) on TV and
laughed when he said "I am not a crook, I didn't do anything wrong, and if
I did, so was everyone else...good bye."
>>> The wars with Iraq were plain stupid, even if oil was the sole cause.
>>> Of all the Middle Eastern countries, this one was progressive and did
>>> not have a lot of hyper-religious baboons running the show. If any
>>> place on this planet needs a 'regime change,' it would Saudi Barbaria.
>>> These knuckledraggers are the root cause of all problems, including
>>> the one in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It really flies in the face of
>>> any reasonably intelligent human, and sullies the memories of WTC
>>> victims, if these Saudi Barbarian baboons are allowed to
>>> fund/construct a mosque at Ground Zero. I want to be spared the abject
>>> self-righteous crap about 'founding fathers' and 'secularism' by the
>>> Prez or other left-wing loonies, and I do not really believe the
>>> 'religion of peace' hogwash either.
>>
>> Yeah, I think the Mosque at GZ idea was a bad idea. Maybe slightly
>> different reasons than yours.
>>
>
> Which are...?
When the anti-Muslim sentiment in the USA is rising, you don't put
something out there that will make it rise even further. However, the
militant-radical Muslims probably _want_ to increase the acrimony because
it is likely to contributes more to this "death wish and mother of all
jihads against the 'great satan'" and I'm thinking I don't want to see
that. These things always end in lots of innocent people getting killed.