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Configuring multiple routers?
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DaveC
Nov 5, 2012, 3:14:16 AM11/5/12
to
The Comcast service comes into a Motorola cable modem (SB6121). Plugged into
the modem's Ethernet port was an Airport Extreme base station.
This provided wifi service to this small office building for more than a
year.
Now there is a need for adding to that some Ethernet capability. (Yes, the
Airport has Ethernet ports, but it is located high up where plugging in
Ethernet cables is impractical.) So...
I added a Netgear RP614v2 router, plugged it into the modem, and plugged the
Airport into the Netgear router.
Doing this killed the wifi. The Ethernet ports on the Netgear router now
work, but no wifi. (Tried different ports on the Netgear, different cables;
No joy. It's not the fault of the hardware.)
I've spent many hours trying to configure the router and the Airport so as to
bring back wifi. I presume I'm not making the right choices.
Can someone point out the basic important points re. IP addresses? For
example, the Airport configuration page says that my choices are: 1. share
the WAN fixed IP address; 2. distribute IP addresses via DHCP; 3. nothing
(bridge mode). Do I want the Airport to not distribute IP addresses (bridge
mode) because the router will do that? And do I need to configure the modem's
WAN IP address to match the modem's IP? Or does this happen automatically?
A good reference to read about router configuration in general (IP addresses,
DHCP, etc.) would be a great starting point. Suggestions?
If there's a more-appropriate group in which to ask this, just say so.
Thanks.
the modem's Ethernet port was an Airport Extreme base station.
This provided wifi service to this small office building for more than a
year.
Now there is a need for adding to that some Ethernet capability. (Yes, the
Airport has Ethernet ports, but it is located high up where plugging in
Ethernet cables is impractical.) So...
I added a Netgear RP614v2 router, plugged it into the modem, and plugged the
Airport into the Netgear router.
Doing this killed the wifi. The Ethernet ports on the Netgear router now
work, but no wifi. (Tried different ports on the Netgear, different cables;
No joy. It's not the fault of the hardware.)
I've spent many hours trying to configure the router and the Airport so as to
bring back wifi. I presume I'm not making the right choices.
Can someone point out the basic important points re. IP addresses? For
example, the Airport configuration page says that my choices are: 1. share
the WAN fixed IP address; 2. distribute IP addresses via DHCP; 3. nothing
(bridge mode). Do I want the Airport to not distribute IP addresses (bridge
mode) because the router will do that? And do I need to configure the modem's
WAN IP address to match the modem's IP? Or does this happen automatically?
A good reference to read about router configuration in general (IP addresses,
DHCP, etc.) would be a great starting point. Suggestions?
If there's a more-appropriate group in which to ask this, just say so.
Thanks.
Henry Law
Nov 5, 2012, 7:59:18 AM11/5/12
to
On 05/11/12 08:14, DaveC wrote:
> I added a Netgear RP614v2 router, plugged it into the modem, and plugged the
> Airport into the Netgear router.
>
> Doing this killed the wifi. The Ethernet ports on the Netgear router now
> work, but no wifi. (Tried different ports on the Netgear, different cables;
> No joy. It's not the fault of the hardware.)
This is hard to diagnose remotely and asynchronously. But it might help
> I added a Netgear RP614v2 router, plugged it into the modem, and plugged the
> Airport into the Netgear router.
>
> Doing this killed the wifi. The Ethernet ports on the Netgear router now
> work, but no wifi. (Tried different ports on the Netgear, different cables;
> No joy. It's not the fault of the hardware.)
if I go through some of the basics of what used to work and how it might
work now.
The airport controlled the modem and provided multiple IP addresses to
the LAN (both wired and wireless); it's likely therefore that it was
acting as a DHCP server and passing out addresses to attached devices.
I'm betting they were in the 192.168.1.x address range too. Upstream of
it there was a single IP address on the Comcast network; the airport was
probably doing NAT, so that all packets from attached devices looked as
if they were coming from the single Comcast IP address.
Now you've plugged in another router -- another layer of routing --
betwen the existing Airport router and the modem. That router expects
to be doing exactly what the Airport did -- DHCP, NAT and all that. And
I'd bet it is also doing it in 192.168.1.x. So it's clear that what you
have isn't going to work as it is.
What I'd suggest is this:
Configure the Netgear router as a DHCP server (almost certainly the
default), and leave its address range as whatever it is set to (probably
192.168.1.x, as I say). That should support the Ethernet ports.
Plug the Airport into one of the Ethernet sockets and configure it in
"Bridge mode", so that the network downstream of the Airport is the same
as the Netgear's. You might need to give it a fixed IP address rather
than have it get one via DHCP. If so, I suggest 192.168.1.254 to get it
out of the way of the ones allocated dynamically.
With luck, a device connecting wirelessly to the Airport will get a DHCP
address directly from Netgear and everything will go off with a roar.
Without luck there's something I've overlooked and you'll be just as
badly off as before. If that's the case, I'm sorry.
--
Henry Law Manchester, England
Message has been deleted
Daniel James
Nov 5, 2012, 9:42:54 AM11/5/12
to
In article <0001HW.CCBCC368...@news.eternal-september.org>,
DaveC wrote:
[snip]
to do was to purchase a network switch (a cheap, unmanaged switch) and
connect it by means of single ethernet cable to one of the wired ports of
your Airport. You would then have been able to connect further devices
directly to the switch (which you could place in any convenient
location). Everything else would have continued to work as before.
With your current arrangement the Netgear router is managing a wired
network, and the Airport attached to it is attempting to manage a
different, subsidiary network. If you can configure the Airport so that
its own router functions are disabled and it acts merely as a switch/WAP
you may be able to get this working, but I don't think an Airport can be
used in that way(?)
> Can someone point out the basic important points re. IP addresses?
Yes ... but you don't really need to mess with that stuff. Just use a
switch instead of trying to make two routers play nicely together.
> If there's a more-appropriate group in which to ask this, just say so.
I think any one of the three you chose should be fine.
Cheers,
Daniel.
DaveC wrote:
[snip]
> Now there is a need for adding to that some Ethernet capability.
> (Yes, the Airport has Ethernet ports, but it is located high up where
> plugging in Ethernet cables is impractical.) So...
>
> I added a Netgear RP614v2 router, plugged it into the modem, and
> plugged the Airport into the Netgear router.
It seems to me that you bought the wrong piece of kit ... all you needed
> (Yes, the Airport has Ethernet ports, but it is located high up where
> plugging in Ethernet cables is impractical.) So...
>
> I added a Netgear RP614v2 router, plugged it into the modem, and
> plugged the Airport into the Netgear router.
to do was to purchase a network switch (a cheap, unmanaged switch) and
connect it by means of single ethernet cable to one of the wired ports of
your Airport. You would then have been able to connect further devices
directly to the switch (which you could place in any convenient
location). Everything else would have continued to work as before.
With your current arrangement the Netgear router is managing a wired
network, and the Airport attached to it is attempting to manage a
different, subsidiary network. If you can configure the Airport so that
its own router functions are disabled and it acts merely as a switch/WAP
you may be able to get this working, but I don't think an Airport can be
used in that way(?)
> Can someone point out the basic important points re. IP addresses?
switch instead of trying to make two routers play nicely together.
> If there's a more-appropriate group in which to ask this, just say so.
Cheers,
Daniel.
DaveC
Nov 5, 2012, 10:29:03 AM11/5/12
to
> It seems to me that you bought the wrong piece of kit ... all you needed
> to do was to purchase a network switch (a cheap, unmanaged switch) and
> connect it by means of single ethernet cable to one of the wired ports of
> your Airport. You would then have been able to connect further devices
> directly to the switch (which you could place in any convenient
> location). Everything else would have continued to work as before.
I first tried a switch connected directly to the modem. It didn't work, and I
> to do was to purchase a network switch (a cheap, unmanaged switch) and
> connect it by means of single ethernet cable to one of the wired ports of
> your Airport. You would then have been able to connect further devices
> directly to the switch (which you could place in any convenient
> location). Everything else would have continued to work as before.
presume it was because the modem has one E port and did not provide NAT or
DHCP function. That's why I went with a router.
Modem data sheet:
<http://www.secable.com/files/SB6121_Data_Sheet.pdf>
Henry Law
Nov 5, 2012, 12:04:13 PM11/5/12
to
On 05/11/12 15:29, DaveC wrote:
>> It seems to me that you bought the wrong piece of kit ... all you needed
>> to do was to purchase a network switch (a cheap, unmanaged switch) and
>> connect it by means of single ethernet cable to one of the wired ports of
>> your Airport.
>> It seems to me that you bought the wrong piece of kit ... all you needed
>> to do was to purchase a network switch (a cheap, unmanaged switch) and
>> connect it by means of single ethernet cable to one of the wired ports of
>> your Airport.
> I first tried a switch connected directly to the modem. It didn't work, and I
> presume it was because the modem has one E port and did not provide NAT or
> DHCP function. That's why I went with a router.
Ah, but you connected it to the wrong place. As Messrs Gold and James
> presume it was because the modem has one E port and did not provide NAT or
> DHCP function. That's why I went with a router.
have rightly said, if you'd connected the switch (with a cable long
enough to reach down from the ceiling to somewhere more convenient) to
one of the Ethernet ports on the Airport router (not into the modem) it
would have provided whatever-number of "downstream" ports which are part
of the original network. If you've still got that switch then that's a
better option than perservering with your Netgear box, which you could
then either sell or keep for some future use.
To explain a little, in the hopes it will help you, the modem won't
manage an Ethernet network: it doesn't know how. All it knows how to do
is to connect to Comcast and reflect its IP address (an external one, in
Comcast's network) onto a socket of some kind.
The Airport tells the modem to connect (and usually provides userid and
password and that sort of thing), and it has a router component which is
responsible for managing a separate network (with a private address
range) on its "downstream" side. In this case "managing" means handing
out addresses via DHCP, doing NAT, providing firewall functions and so on.
A switch is rather like a power strip; it plugs into one socket and then
provides multiple sockets for other devices to plug into. It's passive
(at this level of discussion at least): it doesn't do anything networky
and doesn't understand what an IP address is. And it doesn't understand
how to tell a modem what to do.
Message has been deleted
DaveC
Nov 5, 2012, 11:57:04 AM11/5/12
to
Running another cable to the remote Airport location is not an option.
Message has been deleted
Henry Law
Nov 5, 2012, 4:29:08 PM11/5/12
to
On 05/11/12 16:57, DaveC wrote:
> Running another cable to the remote Airport location is not an option.
>
OK, in which case leave the Netgear unit in place and configure the
> Running another cable to the remote Airport location is not an option.
>
Airport as a bridge. If it doesn't work then come back here; post the
results of "ipconfig /all" from a PC wirelessly connected to the Airport
(assuming you're Windows; otherwise "ifconfig" on linux. Should be
possible to help you get on the air (sorry).
Christopher A. Lee
Nov 5, 2012, 5:05:50 PM11/5/12
to
On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 21:29:08 +0000, Henry Law <ne...@lawshouse.org>
wrote:
I don't know the Airport Extreme but as far as I can tell it is
Apple's wireless router and should perform just like any other.
My Lady Friend has two wireless routers on her home network, because
her old one only supports WEP and while her and her room-mate's older
laptops worked with it, both have new work laptops as well that don't
support WEP (as configured by security admins) so she got a modern
router that wouldn't support WEP.
I forget which one is connected to the cable modem, with the other
connected to the first one via an Ethernet cable.
But the setup works. The two routers have been given different names
and passwords, and have different default IP addresses.
That's all I can think of.
I understand why the original poster doesn't want keep plugging cables
somewhere not easily accessible, but running a single cable either to
a switch (I do that) or a second router shouldn't be a problem because
that's where subsequent cabling will be.
It's simply a case of set it and forget it for the first cable, all
the others connect to the switch.
wrote:
Apple's wireless router and should perform just like any other.
My Lady Friend has two wireless routers on her home network, because
her old one only supports WEP and while her and her room-mate's older
laptops worked with it, both have new work laptops as well that don't
support WEP (as configured by security admins) so she got a modern
router that wouldn't support WEP.
I forget which one is connected to the cable modem, with the other
connected to the first one via an Ethernet cable.
But the setup works. The two routers have been given different names
and passwords, and have different default IP addresses.
That's all I can think of.
I understand why the original poster doesn't want keep plugging cables
somewhere not easily accessible, but running a single cable either to
a switch (I do that) or a second router shouldn't be a problem because
that's where subsequent cabling will be.
It's simply a case of set it and forget it for the first cable, all
the others connect to the switch.
DaveC
Nov 6, 2012, 10:40:12 AM11/6/12
to
Well I've failed.
No matter what I try (and I've tried all suggestions made here) I get this:
in the Netgear RP614v2's connected devices table, a directly-connected iMac
shows up, but not the Airport Extreme (in bridge mode). (Yes I power-cycled
and refreshed the table after each new configuration.)
I've tried connecting the AE to several different ports on the Netgear, first
confirmed by plugging in the iMac.
Cables are not the issue because if I plug the AE (in non-bridge mode) into
the cable modem (using the same or a different cable), it works.
I'm telling mgmt. that paying to have a 2nd cable run to the Airport (costly)
is the solution. I don't like it but there it is.
I wish I knew enough about the whole IP configuration thing to be able to
point to something and say "That is at fault", but it's all a foggy mess (in
my head). I know that with experience comes competence, but isn't there a
good starting point such as a web-seminar or e-book that can cover the basics
and more?
Thanks for all who contributed to the discussion.
Dave
No matter what I try (and I've tried all suggestions made here) I get this:
in the Netgear RP614v2's connected devices table, a directly-connected iMac
shows up, but not the Airport Extreme (in bridge mode). (Yes I power-cycled
and refreshed the table after each new configuration.)
I've tried connecting the AE to several different ports on the Netgear, first
confirmed by plugging in the iMac.
Cables are not the issue because if I plug the AE (in non-bridge mode) into
the cable modem (using the same or a different cable), it works.
I'm telling mgmt. that paying to have a 2nd cable run to the Airport (costly)
is the solution. I don't like it but there it is.
I wish I knew enough about the whole IP configuration thing to be able to
point to something and say "That is at fault", but it's all a foggy mess (in
my head). I know that with experience comes competence, but isn't there a
good starting point such as a web-seminar or e-book that can cover the basics
and more?
Thanks for all who contributed to the discussion.
Dave
Daniel James
Nov 6, 2012, 10:46:43 AM11/6/12
to
In article <1kt3rtb.1lbsnvo1qck2yoN%henr...@eircom.net>, Henry wrote:
> Henry Law <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote:
>
>> A switch is ... passive (at this level of discussion at least): it
>> doesn't do anything networky ..
[snip]
>
> Actually, what you are describing is a hub, not a switch. A switch can
> be actively networky because it does differentiate amongst the IP
> addresses of the various devices attached to it in order to channel
> traffic to the correct machine, rather than send it along wholesale to
> all the sockets.
Indeed ... but I think, perhaps, that unnecessary detail is what Henry
Law was noting had been omitted when he wrote "at this level of
discussion at least".
OP clearly doesn't know a lot about networks and the difference between
a hub and a switch really doesn't matter to him.
Cheers,
Daniel.
> Henry Law <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote:
>
>> A switch is ... passive (at this level of discussion at least): it
>> doesn't do anything networky ..
[snip]
>
> Actually, what you are describing is a hub, not a switch. A switch can
> be actively networky because it does differentiate amongst the IP
> addresses of the various devices attached to it in order to channel
> traffic to the correct machine, rather than send it along wholesale to
> all the sockets.
Indeed ... but I think, perhaps, that unnecessary detail is what Henry
Law was noting had been omitted when he wrote "at this level of
discussion at least".
OP clearly doesn't know a lot about networks and the difference between
a hub and a switch really doesn't matter to him.
Cheers,
Daniel.
Daniel James
Nov 6, 2012, 10:46:43 AM11/6/12
to
In article <0001HW.CCBD3DF0...@news.eternal-september.org>,
arrangement with your Netgear router that would have required such a
cable -- maybe I misunderstood.
Just to be clear: What you would need is:
Comcast modem -- (CAT5) -- Airport -- (CAT5)-- Switch
|
|
(CAT5)
|
|
Other device
where (CAT5) indicates an ethernet cable (you'd need to power the
devices as well, of course).
What I thought you had said you had done was:
Comcast modem -- (CAT5) -- Router -- (CAT5)-- Airport
|
|
(CAT5)
|
|
Other device
I did read the part where you said that the Airport was positioned high
up so plugging in Ethernet cables was impractical (and I assumed,
perhaps wrongly, that the Comcast modem was in the same place) .. so in
either case there would need to be one CAT5 cable running from that
inaccessible place to the desktop (or wherever) that the ethernet ports
are required.
However, if the Airport is really inaccessible (even for installation of
new kit) and you can't run even one cable from it ... the best option
may be to leave all your existing kit where it was and install (on your
desk, or elsewhere) a box that connects as a client to your existing
WiFi (from the Airport) and provides wired ethernet connectivity for
other devices. This connection will only operate at wireless speeds, of
course.
I *think* such boxes are called "wireless bridges" -- they do basically
the same job as a Wireless Access Point but in reverse. You cannot use
your Netgear RP614v2 router to do this, but I believe some of Netgear's
WAP devices can be used as either end of a bridge connection (that is:
to connect to another WAP to form a bridged network). Setting up a
bridge is rather more complex than simply plugging a switch into the
airport and how you set it up will depend on the kit you're using.
Cheers,
Daniel.
DaveC wrote:
> Running another cable to the remote Airport location is not an option.
Really? As I read your original question you had already tried an
> Running another cable to the remote Airport location is not an option.
arrangement with your Netgear router that would have required such a
cable -- maybe I misunderstood.
Just to be clear: What you would need is:
Comcast modem -- (CAT5) -- Airport -- (CAT5)-- Switch
|
|
(CAT5)
|
|
Other device
where (CAT5) indicates an ethernet cable (you'd need to power the
devices as well, of course).
What I thought you had said you had done was:
Comcast modem -- (CAT5) -- Router -- (CAT5)-- Airport
|
|
(CAT5)
|
|
Other device
I did read the part where you said that the Airport was positioned high
up so plugging in Ethernet cables was impractical (and I assumed,
perhaps wrongly, that the Comcast modem was in the same place) .. so in
either case there would need to be one CAT5 cable running from that
inaccessible place to the desktop (or wherever) that the ethernet ports
are required.
However, if the Airport is really inaccessible (even for installation of
new kit) and you can't run even one cable from it ... the best option
may be to leave all your existing kit where it was and install (on your
desk, or elsewhere) a box that connects as a client to your existing
WiFi (from the Airport) and provides wired ethernet connectivity for
other devices. This connection will only operate at wireless speeds, of
course.
I *think* such boxes are called "wireless bridges" -- they do basically
the same job as a Wireless Access Point but in reverse. You cannot use
your Netgear RP614v2 router to do this, but I believe some of Netgear's
WAP devices can be used as either end of a bridge connection (that is:
to connect to another WAP to form a bridged network). Setting up a
bridge is rather more complex than simply plugging a switch into the
airport and how you set it up will depend on the kit you're using.
Cheers,
Daniel.
Rob Morley
Nov 6, 2012, 1:01:54 PM11/6/12
to
On Mon, 5 Nov 2012 20:09:48 +0200
henr...@eircom.net (Henry) wrote:
> Henry Law <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote:
>
henr...@eircom.net (Henry) wrote:
> Henry Law <ne...@lawshouse.org> wrote:
>
> > A switch is rather like a power strip; it plugs into one socket and
> > then provides multiple sockets for other devices to plug into.
> > It's passive (at this level of discussion at least): it doesn't do
> > anything networky and doesn't understand what an IP address is.
> > And it doesn't understand how to tell a modem what to do.
>
> > then provides multiple sockets for other devices to plug into.
> > It's passive (at this level of discussion at least): it doesn't do
> > anything networky and doesn't understand what an IP address is.
> > And it doesn't understand how to tell a modem what to do.
>
> Actually, what you are describing is a hub, not a switch. A switch can
> be actively networky because it does differentiate amongst the IP
> addresses of the various devices attached to it in order to channel
> traffic to the correct machine, rather than send it along wholesale to
> all the sockets.
Actually the term "hub" is simply a topological description. Also
> be actively networky because it does differentiate amongst the IP
> addresses of the various devices attached to it in order to channel
> traffic to the correct machine, rather than send it along wholesale to
> all the sockets.
you seem to be confusing the Layer 2 use of MAC to route packets via
the appropriate port, with Layer 3 switches that are IP aware and use
ARP.
Pen
Nov 6, 2012, 1:18:47 PM11/6/12
to
routers will help you understand.
http://www.grc.com/nat/nats.htm
DaveC
Nov 6, 2012, 1:35:22 PM11/6/12
to
> http://www.grc.com/nat/nats.htm
Very clear writing. It distills the details down to a few rules.
Thanks!
Very clear writing. It distills the details down to a few rules.
Thanks!
Message has been deleted
Rob Morley
Nov 6, 2012, 2:08:46 PM11/6/12
to
On Tue, 6 Nov 2012 20:59:47 +0200
henr...@eircom.net (Henry) wrote:
> Rob Morley <nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually the term "hub" is simply a topological description.
>
> Actually pieces of hardware sold in the marketplace for many years,
> although nowadays largely supplanted by ... switches.
The switch, short for "switching hub", sharing its topology but not
mode of operation with what is sometimes known as a "dumb hub" (for its
inability to perform low level routing to appropriate ports).
henr...@eircom.net (Henry) wrote:
> Rob Morley <nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > Actually the term "hub" is simply a topological description.
>
> although nowadays largely supplanted by ... switches.
The switch, short for "switching hub", sharing its topology but not
mode of operation with what is sometimes known as a "dumb hub" (for its
inability to perform low level routing to appropriate ports).
Christopher A. Lee
Nov 6, 2012, 2:36:22 PM11/6/12
to
worked.
So that would be the obvious place to start.
Give the two routers different SSID names and passwords. That way
there should be no possibility of their wireless interfering with each
other.
Also different IP addresses eg 192.168.1.1 and 192.168.2.1 - even if
this isn't necessary it will make it easier to see what is connected
to what.
The second router's WAN will be its connection to the first router.
The first router's WAN will be the cable modem and broadband
connection.
My Lady Friend's home network is set up this way using an older
802-11G router that supports WEP for her and her room-mate's home
laptops, and a newer 802-11N (150Mbps) router for their work laptops
which have been configured by their employers not to allow WEP.
Char Jackson
Nov 6, 2012, 3:22:36 PM11/6/12
to
We could knock this out in no time.
Toby
Nov 23, 2012, 6:42:26 PM11/23/12
to
way without you having to lay another cable.
This is assuming the connection between the Comcast modem and the
AirPort is 10/100 and is not using PoE
Simply use a CAT5 Economiser like this both ends of the cable
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290335345691
Connect the A port one end to the Comcast Modem, and the other A port
the other end to the AirPort
connect the LAN Ethernet side of the Airpoint to the B port, and a
simple network switch to the B side near the Comcast modem.
If you like, you can use the Netgear as a switch by just disabling the
DHCP server on it, and connecting to one of the LAN ports, just ignore
the WAN port on this.
--
Toby...
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