I finally trashed my 14 year old Pentium II computer--it ran Windows 2000 fine, but never could run Linux much at all
RayLopez99
trash, after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB (yes two
gbs!) HDs and the 48 MB RAM. I found out how the RAM was configured,
after all these years: four sticks--I kid you not--of 16x2 and two
sticks of 8x2 = 32 + 16 = 48 MB. LOL.
And it ran fine Windows 2000. But it had a hard time running Linux
(among other things the CD-ROM was hard to mount). I tried Puppy, DSL
(had the best luck with this) and Mint. All with the same disastrous
results.
The graphics card was laughable. I think it was some 8 bit S3 Virge
or some such with the barest of video RAM--I did not bother to even
look. I forget if it even had a video card fan--I think it had a tiny
one, certainly nothing like the massive heat exchangers of today. 200
W or so power supply, but it got the job done. Floppy disk drive of
course, that hardly ever failed even though it was a decade+ old. No
blown capacitors. But again, Windows 2000 never had a problem with
this old hardware (since that was the OS, right after Windows 98, that
I targeted this machine for, proving that Windows works fine if you
have the right hardware for it).
I was just tired of having it around as a paperweight, though it
worked fine. I guess I could have donated it, but the HDs had data on
them and despite some freeware (CCleaner, an otherwise fine program,
could not completely wipe out the disk of data in Windows 2000), I
could not nuke the HDs (zero them out) using software...so I just took
a hammer to them, which short of using an electron microscope to
reconstruct data from shards works fine to clean your HDs of data.
RL
RayLopez99
> I threw out my Linux Pentium Two today, bought in 1996 or 1997, in the
> trash, after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB
I call this a Linux machine since I did have Linux dual booted on it.
RL
Peter Köhlmann
No, you didn't.
You claim to, just like Hadron does. This does not make it true.
You are way too stupid to run anything which wasn't pre-installed.
You could not succesfully spill a bucket of water without seriously botching
it
bbgruff
All very interesting, Ray - especially the configuration of the computer
that the "self-made millionaire" was using at the time (a few months ago)
that he was asking advice about:-
- Whether he should use WD40 rather than buy a new CPU fan!
- Whether WD40 would keep his case fan going, rather than replace it!
- Preferred, instead of that huge outlay, to leave the side
off his computer, and point a domestic fan at the innards!
- and I don't believe that you ever had Linux running on it.
In fact, I don't believe you have ever installed Linux on anything.
I told you what the problem is when you tried - you are too dense.
Chris
> And it ran fine Windows 2000. But it had a hard time running Linux
> (among other things the CD-ROM was hard to mount). I tried Puppy, DSL
> (had the best luck with this) and Mint. All with the same disastrous
> results.
I feel with you - because of only 48 MB ram. What exactly did you do with
this machine? Even running a modern browser should have been too much for
that little memory...
Could you maybe explain "disastrous results" more?
Following the wikipedia article DSL should be able to run.. somehow:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_small_linux#System_requirements
"DSL has been demonstrated browsing the web with Dillo, running simple
games and playing music on systems with a 486 processor and 16 MB of RAM."
I haven't heard much about puppy but I'm not sure if it is really
optimized for such really old hardware anymore.
Linux Mint... Obviously it won't run well on 48 mb ram.
The right comparison would be to run a Linux distribution from the year ~
2000/2001 also. But I understand why that would be unpleasant and I
wouldn't do that either.
I would maybe test some modern distributions meant for embedded systems
with low specs.
JeffM
>>after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB
>>
and get the last several useful months out of it.
...or wipe it with DBAN and donate it to a charity.
(Linux includes dd which will do this from the bootable CD.)
Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>You are way too stupid to run anything which wasn't pre-installed.
>
Obviously.
Multi-user Puppy, Damn Small Linux, MEPIS antiX, SliTaz,
ConnochaetOS (formerly DeLi Linux),
and the recently mentioned Zenix
will all run on any box with 64MB of RAM.
The only hardware I have had Linux fail to embrace on a PII
was a LoseModem.
The troll is obviously a liar.
Mike Easter
> I threw out my Linux Pentium Two today, bought in 1996 or 1997, in the
> trash, after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB (yes two
> gbs!) HDs and the 48 MB RAM.
> And it ran fine Windows 2000. But it had a hard time running Linux
MS sez 2K minimums:
133 MHz or more Pentium microprocessor
64 megabytes (MB) of RAM recommended minimum. 32 MB of RAM is the
minimum supported.
> I could not nuke the HDs (zero them out) using software
Hiren's boot CD has several utilities for shredding/ erasing/
overwriting hdd.
That is not the purpose of CCleaner.
--
Mike Easter
Snit
And this is something the "advocates" will not speak out against.
--
[INSERT .SIG HERE]
JeffM
>[...]only 48 MB ram
>
Not a problem--if you're *really* interested in Linux
--unlike the stupid WinTroll.
>Even running a modern browser
>
Obviously, with Windoze,
he was running Internet Exploder 6 on that.
Nothing approaching modern.
>should have been too much for that little memory
>
Depending on your definition of "modern".
>[...]Dillo[...]
>
Bingo!
>Linux Mint... Obviously it won't run well on 48 [MB] ram.
>
...not even the lightest spin of Mint (Fluxbox Edition).
Windoze XP and Vista and Vista 7 won't run on it either.
On the antiX forum,
user "drg" got the 486 spin of MEPIS antiX running with 32MB
and installed with 48MB.
If he'd had exactly 40 MB, he figured that would have installed too.
http://tinyurl.com/antiX-WillRunIn32MB
http://antix.freeforums.org/post17065.html
Had the WinTroll been even slightly interested,
he would have ASKED first
instead of shooting off his stupid mouth
and expecting a heavyweight distro that can compete with Vista 7
to install on ancient, low-spec crap.
RayLopez99
> Am Wed, 15 Jun 2011 16:16:37 -0700 schrieb RayLopez99:
>
> > And it ran fine Windows 2000. But it had a hard time running Linux
> > (among other things the CD-ROM was hard to mount). I tried Puppy, DSL
> > (had the best luck with this) and Mint. All with the same disastrous
> > results.
>
> I feel with you - because of only 48 MB ram. What exactly did you do with
> this machine? Even running a modern browser should have been too much for
> that little memory...
It did an incredible amount of disk thrashing, but it worked. And it
worked under some versions of Linux, that's amazing. But it worked
best in Windows 2000.
I did nothing major with it. I played some chess games, and surfed
the net (even posted here using Linux browser)
>
> Could you maybe explain "disastrous results" more?
> Following the wikipedia article DSL should be able to run.. somehow:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_small_linux#System_requirements
> "DSL has been demonstrated browsing the web with Dillo, running simple
> games and playing music on systems with a 486 processor and 16 MB of RAM."
>
> I haven't heard much about puppy but I'm not sure if it is really
> optimized for such really old hardware anymore.
>
> Linux Mint... Obviously it won't run well on 48 mb ram.
>
> The right comparison would be to run a Linux distribution from the year ~
> 2000/2001 also. But I understand why that would be unpleasant and I
> wouldn't do that either.
Yes, correct. But I could not find any old 2000 yr Linux distros.
From the year 2000 that is.
RL
RayLopez99
>
> Multi-user Puppy, Damn Small Linux, MEPIS antiX, SliTaz,
> ConnochaetOS (formerly DeLi Linux),
> and the recently mentioned Zenix
> will all run on any box with 64MB of RAM.
>
> The only hardware I have had Linux fail to embrace on a PII
> was a LoseModem.
>
> The troll is obviously a liar.
You are obviously stupid. I told you I had 48 MB RAM, not 64 MB,
stupid.
RL
RayLopez99
> RayLopez99 wrote:
> > I threw out my Linux Pentium Two today, bought in 1996 or 1997, in the
> > trash, after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB (yes two
> > gbs!) HDs and the 48 MB RAM.
> > And it ran fine Windows 2000. But it had a hard time running Linux
>
> MS sez 2K minimums:
> 133 MHz or more Pentium microprocessor
> 64 megabytes (MB) of RAM recommended minimum. 32 MB of RAM is the
> minimum supported.
And Win2k worked. I had above 32 MB RAM.
>
> > I could not nuke the HDs (zero them out) using software
>
> Hiren's boot CD has several utilities for shredding/ erasing/
> overwriting hdd.
>
> That is not the purpose of CCleaner.
>
But CCleaner does have a checkbox for overwriting hdd. It did not
work for Win2k (only overwrote free spaces).
RL
David Brown
>> [WinTroll] wrote:
>>> after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB
>>>
> ...because he's too stupid to set that up as swap
> and get the last several useful months out of it.
>
> ...or wipe it with DBAN and donate it to a charity.
> (Linux includes dd which will do this from the bootable CD.)
>
>> You are way too stupid to run anything which wasn't pre-installed.
>>
> Obviously.
>
> Multi-user Puppy, Damn Small Linux, MEPIS antiX, SliTaz,
> ConnochaetOS (formerly DeLi Linux),
> and the recently mentioned Zenix
> will all run on any box with 64MB of RAM.
>
> The only hardware I have had Linux fail to embrace on a PII
> was a LoseModem.
>
> The troll is obviously a liar.
I've used systems like that as Linux file servers (one with a Pentium
90, but with 64 MB instead of 48 MB). I also use even smaller systems
(such as MIPs processor at about 100 MHz, 4 MB storage and 16 MB ram)
for internet routers, gateways, and VPN servers.
I can't really see the point of trying to get any desktop use out of
such an old system. Yes, you can certainly get it running using a
variety of distros - but why bother? You are not going to use the
system for anything, unless you have need of a bulky thin client.
RayLopez99
wrote:
> You could not succesfully spill a bucket of water without seriously botching
> it
Get back to work, Peter Kraut. You have bills to pay. My bills.
RL
Bill_h
Finally admitting you're a dole bludger? Would explain the powerful
computers you keep playing with.
--
Bill_h
White Spirit
> You could not succesfully spill a bucket of water without seriously botching
> it
Even if the instructions were written on the bottom, he'd get it wrong.
chrisv
>Chris wrote:
>>[...]only 48 MB ram
>>
>Not a problem--if you're *really* interested in Linux
>--unlike the stupid WinTroll.
Come on, now. The computer described was obsolete. Get over it.
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
JEDIDIAH
> On 16/06/2011 01:50, JeffM wrote:
>>> [WinTroll] wrote:
>>>> after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB
>>>>
>> ...because he's too stupid to set that up as swap
>> and get the last several useful months out of it.
>>
>> ...or wipe it with DBAN and donate it to a charity.
>> (Linux includes dd which will do this from the bootable CD.)
>>
>>> You are way too stupid to run anything which wasn't pre-installed.
>>>
>> Obviously.
>>
>> Multi-user Puppy, Damn Small Linux, MEPIS antiX, SliTaz,
>> ConnochaetOS (formerly DeLi Linux),
>> and the recently mentioned Zenix
>> will all run on any box with 64MB of RAM.
>>
>> The only hardware I have had Linux fail to embrace on a PII
>> was a LoseModem.
>>
>> The troll is obviously a liar.
>
> I've used systems like that as Linux file servers (one with a Pentium
> 90, but with 64 MB instead of 48 MB). I also use even smaller systems
> (such as MIPs processor at about 100 MHz, 4 MB storage and 16 MB ram)
> for internet routers, gateways, and VPN servers.
>
> I can't really see the point of trying to get any desktop use out of
> such an old system. Yes, you can certainly get it running using a
> variety of distros - but why bother? You are not going to use the
> system for anything, unless you have need of a bulky thin client.
A machine that old running the OS it came with is not even going to
be supported. The main reason for running a monopolyware OS will be gone.
You won't be able to run any recent versions of any of the apps that
Lemmings like to drone on about because they aren't supported any more.
--
It is not true that Microsoft doesn't innovate.
They brought us the email virus.
In my Atari days, such a notion would have |||
been considered a complete absurdity. / | \
The Natural Philosopher
telnet into servers.
got stolen years ago.
I've got another two beaten up freebies from friends. I use one to watch
TV when camping.
Both got linux on. Both installed straight off. mouse pad on one is not
100% functional in every sense, but I use a mouse anyway. cant get along
with touch pads.
TomB
On 2011-06-16, the following emerged from the brain of Snit:
> Peter Köhlmann stated in post itbeug$lps$1...@dont-email.me on 6/15/11 4:23 PM:
Why should we? It would be like speaking out against someone telling
us that shit smells bad.
And for the record, I have already told Peter K. that I don't agree
with him claiming that Hadron doesn't use Debian or GNU/Linux in
general. Of course that doesn't mean that I don't agree with his
general opinion on Hadron, ie. that he's a lying, foul-mouthed troll.
--
http://twitter.com/drumscum | http://drumscum.be
This job would be great if it wasn't for the fucking customers.
~ Randal Graves
Don Phillipson
news:a59a83c2-f656-4986...@g16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>I threw out my Linux Pentium Two today, bought in 1996 or 1997, in the
> trash, after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB (yes two
> gbs!) HDs and the 48 MB RAM. I found out how the RAM was configured,
> after all these years: four sticks--I kid you not--of 16x2 and two
> sticks of 8x2 = 32 + 16 = 48 MB. LOL.
We find it hard to understand for 14 years you never once needed
to open the case (exposing the RAM chips to inspection.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
Marti Van Lin
> On 16/06/2011 01:50, JeffM wrote:
>>> [WinTroll] wrote:
>>>> after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB
>>>>
>> ...because he's too stupid to set that up as swap
>> and get the last several useful months out of it.
>>
>> ...or wipe it with DBAN and donate it to a charity.
>> (Linux includes dd which will do this from the bootable CD.)
>>
>> Peter K�hlmann wrote:
>>> You are way too stupid to run anything which wasn't pre-installed.
>>>
>> Obviously.
>>
>> Multi-user Puppy, Damn Small Linux, MEPIS antiX, SliTaz,
>> ConnochaetOS (formerly DeLi Linux),
>> and the recently mentioned Zenix
>> will all run on any box with 64MB of RAM.
>>
>> The only hardware I have had Linux fail to embrace on a PII
>> was a LoseModem.
>>
>> The troll is obviously a liar.
>
> I've used systems like that as Linux file servers (one with a Pentium
> 90, but with 64 MB instead of 48 MB). I also use even smaller systems
> (such as MIPs processor at about 100 MHz, 4 MB storage and 16 MB ram)
> for internet routers, gateways, and VPN servers.
>
> I can't really see the point of trying to get any desktop use out of
> such an old system. Yes, you can certainly get it running using a
> variety of distros - but why bother? You are not going to use the system
> for anything, unless you have need of a bulky thin client.
I'm running Debian �squeeze� on this old piece of junk:
* Cyrix MII 300 Mhz CPU;
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Cyrix_6x86#Cyrix_MII
* 64 MiB (70 ns) EDO-RAM;
* Voodoo 3dfx PCI GPU (4 MiB VRAM);
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/3dfx_Interactive
* 3 GiB HDD (swap/FAT32 (Winders 98SE));
* 6 GiB HDD (/ and /home)
It has LXDE installed, Abiword (wordprocessor), Dillo (webbrowser), yet
I seldom startx. I mainly use Midnight Commander and the "native" MC
text viewer/editor, because the machine's main function is serving as a
syslog server for my Ubee EVW3200 Wireless "MODEM" (understatement).
The problem with RayLopez is that he doesn't intent to use or learn
anything about GNU/Linux. His only purpose is to troll and miserably
fails over and over and over again.
--
|_|0|_| Marti T. van Lin, alias ML2MST
|_|_|0| Registered GNU/Linux user 513040
|0|0|0| http://www.soundclick.com/martivanlin
JeffM
>I can't really see the point
>of trying to get any desktop use out of such an old system.
>
who think it's a reasonable pastime to try to ride a bull.
Some guys create art out of grains of rice.
>Yes, you can certainly get it running using a variety of distros
>- but why bother?
>
Reportedly, when asked "Why do you want to climb Mount Everest?",
George Mallory replied "Because it's there".
In another post in this thread,
I pointed to someone who had antiX going with 32MB of RAM.
news:2d531ab4-9c15-4d77...@j23g2000yqc.googlegroups.com
I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find
someone here who remembers running Linux with 8MB of RAM.
>You are not going to use the system for anything,
>unless you have need of a bulky thin client.
>
Ah, that we were all so affluent
that we could turn up our noses at every bit of old gear.
Ex-IT pro, teacher, and blogger Robert Pogson is in northern Canada
where most of his students have been native peoples
who have been screwed by governments for generations.
He has to use whatever hardware he can get his hands on.
Thin clients are a huge part of his method.
http://google.com/search?q=site:mrpogson.com+thin-client+OR+thin-clients&num=100
Of course he uses Linux.
...and you realize, of course, that the OP is a WinTroll
who only uses a computer to do secretarial work
and who can't use any software outside of preinstalled Windoze
and preinstalled M$Office.
RayLopez99
> "RayLopez99" <raylope...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I never said that. I just said "after all these years". As I recall
I did play with the memory years ago.
And who is "we"?
RL
David Brown
> David Brown wrote:
>> I can't really see the point
>> of trying to get any desktop use out of such an old system.
>>
> Well, there are some guys
> who think it's a reasonable pastime to try to ride a bull.
>
> Some guys create art out of grains of rice.
>
>> Yes, you can certainly get it running using a variety of distros
>> - but why bother?
>>
> Reportedly, when asked "Why do you want to climb Mount Everest?",
> George Mallory replied "Because it's there".
>
> In another post in this thread,
> I pointed to someone who had antiX going with 32MB of RAM.
> news:2d531ab4-9c15-4d77...@j23g2000yqc.googlegroups.com
>
> I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find
> someone here who remembers running Linux with 8MB of RAM.
>
Oh, I can appreciate the challenge and fun of getting such a system
running. I just don't imagine many people are patient enough to use it
for much (except, as I said, for something like file-serving or other
non-interactive work).
>> You are not going to use the system for anything,
>> unless you have need of a bulky thin client.
>>
> Ah, that we were all so affluent
> that we could turn up our noses at every bit of old gear.
I have a lot of old gear in use - both at home and at the office. But
somewhere it's worth drawing the line. You can get a 2 GHz machine on
eBay for around $30.
> Ex-IT pro, teacher, and blogger Robert Pogson is in northern Canada
> where most of his students have been native peoples
> who have been screwed by governments for generations.
> He has to use whatever hardware he can get his hands on.
> Thin clients are a huge part of his method.
> http://google.com/search?q=site:mrpogson.com+thin-client+OR+thin-clients&num=100
> Of course he uses Linux.
>
> ...and you realize, of course, that the OP is a WinTroll
> who only uses a computer to do secretarial work
> and who can't use any software outside of preinstalled Windoze
> and preinstalled M$Office.
Yes, I know about the OP.
JeffM
>I'm running Debian squeeze on this old piece of junk:
>Cyrix MII 300 [MHz] CPU;
>
Note: The abbreviation of Heinrich Hertz's name gets capitalized
even when it's preceded by another capital letter.
>64 MiB (70 ns) EDO-RAM;
>[...]
>the machine's main function is serving as a syslog server
>for my Ubee EVW3200 Wireless "MODEM" (understatement).
>
My hat is off to you, dude.
Finding another way to use old hardware gains my admiration.
Not turning that kit into yet more landfill
makes the Greenie in me smile.
...and a Cyrix--WOW, like my first non-386 computer
(second-hand even then).
>The problem with RayLopez is that
>he doesn't [intend] to use or learn anything about GNU/Linux.
>
...nor use any software that doesn't come preinstalled
nor use software that can do anything besides secretarial tasks.
>His only purpose is to troll
>
Obviously.
>and miserably fails over and over and over again.
>
He is obviously a dull-witted masochist.
William Poaster
> David Brown wrote:
<snip>
> ...and you realize, of course, that the OP is a WinTroll
> who only uses a computer to do secretarial work
> and who can't use any software outside of preinstalled Windoze
> and preinstalled M$Office.
And the troll also declared that he uses pirated Windoze.
"I love my $5 copy of Windows 7 bought in SE Asia."
RayLopez99
M-ID: <8d948e8d-de0d-4578...@n2g2000prj.googlegroups.com>
Tue, 05 Apr 2011
--
A bad random number generator: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 4.33e+67, 1, 1, 1
"Microsoft has vast resources, literally billions of dollars in cash, or liquid assets reserves.
Microsoft is an incredibly successful empire built on the premise of market dominance with low-quality goods."
-- Former White House adviser Richard A. Clarke --
Goblin
> In reply to JeffM who posted:
>
>> David Brown wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> ...and you realize, of course, that the OP is a WinTroll
>> who only uses a computer to do secretarial work
>> and who can't use any software outside of preinstalled Windoze
>> and preinstalled M$Office.
>
> And the troll also declared that he uses pirated Windoze.
>
> "I love my $5 copy of Windows 7 bought in SE Asia."
> RayLopez99
> M-ID:<8d948e8d-de0d-4578...@n2g2000prj.googlegroups.com>
> Tue, 05 Apr 2011
>
$5? That much? ;)
You know what they say - "A fool and his money are easy parted"
I wouldn't even download Windows 7 for free. I'm very happy with the
choices Ive made and don't want to think of a life with Windows ever
again.....burned too many times.
--
Openbytes the Linux/FOSS Blogazine! - http://www.openbytes.tk
"Cave quid dicis, quando, et cui."
Catch me in #techrights on freenode.net
BytesMedia: www.bytesmedia.co.uk
Email: bytes...@googlemail.com
Skype: tim.openbytes
Twitter: twitter.com/_goblin
Identi.ca: identi.ca/openbytes
The Natural Philosopher
> In reply to JeffM who posted:
>
>> David Brown wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> ...and you realize, of course, that the OP is a WinTroll
>> who only uses a computer to do secretarial work
>> and who can't use any software outside of preinstalled Windoze
>> and preinstalled M$Office.
>
> And the troll also declared that he uses pirated Windoze.
>
> "I love my $5 copy of Windows 7 bought in SE Asia."
> RayLopez99
> M-ID: <8d948e8d-de0d-4578...@n2g2000prj.googlegroups.com>
> Tue, 05 Apr 2011
>
Goblin
Maybe he's a millionare because of the fact he doesn't pay full price on
Microsoft products..... I'd certainly have saved many a penny if I
hadn't wastefully forked out on Microsoft products over the years.
The Natural Philosopher
> On 16/06/11 23:53, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> William Poaster wrote:
>>> In reply to JeffM who posted:
>>>
>>>> David Brown wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> ...and you realize, of course, that the OP is a WinTroll
>>>> who only uses a computer to do secretarial work
>>>> and who can't use any software outside of preinstalled Windoze
>>>> and preinstalled M$Office.
>>>
>>> And the troll also declared that he uses pirated Windoze.
>>>
>>> "I love my $5 copy of Windows 7 bought in SE Asia."
>>> RayLopez99 M-ID:
>>> <8d948e8d-de0d-4578...@n2g2000prj.googlegroups.com>
>>> Tue, 05 Apr 2011
>>>
>> and he claims to be a millionaire, too.
>
> Maybe he's a millionare because of the fact he doesn't pay full price on
> Microsoft products..... I'd certainly have saved many a penny if I
> hadn't wastefully forked out on Microsoft products over the years.
>
well over ten years anyway. Win 98 OEM that was.
I think I bought a Microsoft mouse though.
Goblin
Mmm...last Microsoft package I bought.....I suppose it would have been
Vista and it was worth every penny. It convinced me to move to Linux
100% on the desktop at home.
That sort of advice is priceless.
Marti Van Lin
> Marti Van Lin wrote:
>> I'm running Debian squeeze on this old piece of junk:
>> Cyrix MII 300 [MHz] CPU;
>>
> Note: The abbreviation of Heinrich Hertz's name gets capitalized
> even when it's preceded by another capital letter.
>
>> 64 MiB (70 ns) EDO-RAM;
>> [...]
>> the machine's main function is serving as a syslog server
>> for my Ubee EVW3200 Wireless "MODEM" (understatement).
>>
> My hat is off to you, dude.
> Finding another way to use old hardware gains my admiration.
> Not turning that kit into yet more landfill
> makes the Greenie in me smile.
Thank you for your kind words. These machines are "recycle machines".
Old machines, people don't want any longer and usually machines with
broken parts and pieces.
What I do is collect the best useful parts of multiple machines and
build the best configuration possible. Then install the best possible
Linux distribution. After testing, I send an email message to friends
and family announcing that there is a Free computer available.
Yet for some mysterious reason nobody seems to be interested in this
particular machine. There for I use it my self. I'm not going to throw a
perfectly working machine away.
> ...and a Cyrix--WOW, like my first non-386 computer
> (second-hand even then).
>
>> The problem with RayLopez is that
>> he doesn't [intend] to use or learn anything about GNU/Linux.
>>
> ...nor use any software that doesn't come preinstalled
> nor use software that can do anything besides secretarial tasks.
>
>> His only purpose is to troll
>>
> Obviously.
>
>> and miserably fails over and over and over again.
>>
> He is obviously a dull-witted masochist.
Hehe :-)
All the best,
Marti Van Lin
> David Brown wrote:
>> I can't really see the point
>> of trying to get any desktop use out of such an old system.
>>
> Well, there are some guys
> who think it's a reasonable pastime to try to ride a bull.
>
> Some guys create art out of grains of rice.
>
>> Yes, you can certainly get it running using a variety of distros
>> - but why bother?
Because I recycle those machines, gratis and mainly to elderly who don't
need all this horsepower.
> Reportedly, when asked "Why do you want to climb Mount Everest?",
> George Mallory replied "Because it's there".
>
> In another post in this thread,
> I pointed to someone who had antiX going with 32MB of RAM.
> news:2d531ab4-9c15-4d77...@j23g2000yqc.googlegroups.com
>
> I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to find
> someone here who remembers running Linux with 8MB of RAM.
My minimum was A Pentium 166 MMC with 16 MiB RAM, ATI Mach64 based GPU
(2 MiB VRAM) and a 2.1 GiB IDE HDD. Dualboot running SuSE Linux
6.1/Windows 95.
But... I also ran Uzix 1.0 on a MSX2 machine with 128 KiB RAM.
>> You are not going to use the system for anything,
>> unless you have need of a bulky thin client.
Oh well, mutt, slrn, Midnight Commander and aptitude run just fine on it
and the machine doesn't stand in my way. Also my wireless
MODEM/router/firewall/switch thingy requires a external machine to send
its logs to (using syslogd) and this old piece of trash, which nobody
wants, is perfect for that task ;-)
> Ah, that we were all so affluent
> that we could turn up our noses at every bit of old gear.
> Ex-IT pro, teacher, and blogger Robert Pogson is in northern Canada
> where most of his students have been native peoples
> who have been screwed by governments for generations.
> He has to use whatever hardware he can get his hands on.
> Thin clients are a huge part of his method.
> http://google.com/search?q=site:mrpogson.com+thin-client+OR+thin-clients&num=100
> Of course he uses Linux.
>
> ...and you realize, of course, that the OP is a WinTroll
> who only uses a computer to do secretarial work
> and who can't use any software outside of preinstalled Windoze
> and preinstalled M$Office.
JeffM
>What I do is collect the best useful parts of multiple machines
>and build the best configuration possible.
>[Therefore] I use it my self.
>I'm not going to throw a perfectly working machine away.
>
(Job responsibilities in his case.)
He has documented many years of using ancient, sparse laptops.
One machine that wasn't useful for general-purpose work
got a special assignment.
http://google.com/search?q=site:kmandla.wordpress.com+intitle:weather+intitle:clock
He lives in Japan and perhaps it was one of their temblors
which, after he had worked so carefully to get it going,
caused that machine to fall down from the wall one day. 8-(
http://kmandla.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/an-apology-and-a-eulogy/
Don Phillipson
>> We find it hard to understand for 14 years you never once needed
>> to open the case (exposing the RAM chips to inspection.)
> I never said that. I just said "after all these years". As I recall
> I did play with the memory years ago.
>
> And who is "we"?
We is the NG users to whom you originally posted. We
suppose you hoped for more than one reader.
RayLopez99
> > And who is "we"?
>
> We is the NG users to whom you originally posted. We
> suppose you hoped for more than one reader.
>
The Royal "we". You presume to speak for all the readers in all the
myriad of countries reading each and every one of my brilliant posts,
eagerly awaiting my reply?
Pretty presumptuous of you.
RL
Ant
work as a test PC, BUT only for old Windows (98 to 2K) when needed (very
rare -- last time used was probably last year or two). Mostly it is
powered off and disconnected to last longer. Yes, we have virtual
machines (VMs) but sometimes you still need to use those real PCs! The
only thing broken is its 3.5" floppy disk that doesn't work (never got
to replace it). :)
Why didn't you junk yank its HDD out and donate/sell the rest?
On 6/15/2011 4:16 PM PT, RayLopez99 typed:
> I threw out my Linux Pentium Two today, bought in 1996 or 1997, in the
> trash, after busting with a sledgehammer the Seagate 2 GB (yes two
> gbs!) HDs and the 48 MB RAM. I found out how the RAM was configured,
> after all these years: four sticks--I kid you not--of 16x2 and two
> sticks of 8x2 = 32 + 16 = 48 MB. LOL.
>
> And it ran fine Windows 2000. But it had a hard time running Linux
> (among other things the CD-ROM was hard to mount). I tried Puppy, DSL
> (had the best luck with this) and Mint. All with the same disastrous
> results.
>
> The graphics card was laughable. I think it was some 8 bit S3 Virge
> or some such with the barest of video RAM--I did not bother to even
> look. I forget if it even had a video card fan--I think it had a tiny
> one, certainly nothing like the massive heat exchangers of today. 200
> W or so power supply, but it got the job done. Floppy disk drive of
> course, that hardly ever failed even though it was a decade+ old. No
> blown capacitors. But again, Windows 2000 never had a problem with
> this old hardware (since that was the OS, right after Windows 98, that
> I targeted this machine for, proving that Windows works fine if you
> have the right hardware for it).
>
> I was just tired of having it around as a paperweight, though it
> worked fine. I guess I could have donated it, but the HDs had data on
> them and despite some freeware (CCleaner, an otherwise fine program,
> could not completely wipe out the disk of data in Windows 2000), I
> could not nuke the HDs (zero them out) using software...so I just took
> a hammer to them, which short of using an electron microscope to
> reconstruct data from shards works fine to clean your HDs of data.
--
"An ant hole may collapse an embankment." --Japanese
/\___/\ Ant @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is currently not listening to any songs on this computer.
RayLopez99
> I still have an old, heavy Micron P2 450 Mhz system (256 MB of RAM) at
> work as a test PC, BUT only for old Windows (98 to 2K) when needed (very
> rare -- last time used was probably last year or two). Mostly it is
> powered off and disconnected to last longer.
It's a common myth that disconnecting your PC will make the HD last
longer. Not really true (granted with no power it will last longer).
Reason is that hard drives are affected by cosmic rays (particles)
that bombard everything and everybody even indoors... and these will
often cause a HD to fail, not to mention metal oxide will corrode
slightly with time. So I've read on the net.
> Yes, we have virtual
> machines (VMs) but sometimes you still need to use those real PCs! The
> only thing broken is its 3.5" floppy disk that doesn't work (never got
> to replace it). :)
>
> Why didn't you junk yank its HDD out and donate/sell the rest?
Because here in Athens, Greece they don't have charities that give
receipts, so no US tax writeoff. Besides it's a pretty poor computer
experience to give some kid a crummy old machine with such small RAM
that it constantly disk thrashes. Still, it paid for itself several
times over with the amount of Serious Work I did on it.
What is your experience with Virtual Machines? I'm thinking of
installing Visual Studio 2008 on such a VM (running XP)--while under
Windows 7. Do you think it will work? Or are VMs not really the same
as a physical machine (keep in mind Visual Studio is pretty complex--
not like running WordPad or something trivial).
RL
Ant
>> I still have an old, heavy Micron P2 450 Mhz system (256 MB of RAM) at
>> work as a test PC, BUT only for old Windows (98 to 2K) when needed (very
>> rare -- last time used was probably last year or two). Mostly it is
>> powered off and disconnected to last longer.
>
> It's a common myth that disconnecting your PC will make the HD last
> longer. Not really true (granted with no power it will last longer).
> Reason is that hard drives are affected by cosmic rays (particles)
> that bombard everything and everybody even indoors... and these will
> often cause a HD to fail, not to mention metal oxide will corrode
> slightly with time. So I've read on the net.
Interesting. What about the other parts? I think I replaced its old IDE
HDD a several years ago (2003/2004?) because it started having bad
sectors. If its HDD or PSU goes bad, then I am going to get rid of it. I
just rarely use it these days. I only kept it for emergency testings.
>> Yes, we have virtual
>> machines (VMs) but sometimes you still need to use those real PCs! The
>> only thing broken is its 3.5" floppy disk that doesn't work (never got
>> to replace it). :)
>>
>> Why didn't you junk yank its HDD out and donate/sell the rest?
>
> Because here in Athens, Greece they don't have charities that give
> receipts, so no US tax writeoff. Besides it's a pretty poor computer
> experience to give some kid a crummy old machine with such small RAM
> that it constantly disk thrashes. Still, it paid for itself several
> times over with the amount of Serious Work I did on it.
>
> What is your experience with Virtual Machines? I'm thinking of
> installing Visual Studio 2008 on such a VM (running XP)--while under
> Windows 7. Do you think it will work? Or are VMs not really the same
> as a physical machine (keep in mind Visual Studio is pretty complex--
> not like running WordPad or something trivial).
It will work, just slow. Be sure your host PC is fast and plenty of RAM.
I use VM for testing softwares which is nice not to trash my real PCs
and I can do snapshots to retry scenarios. :D Try VirtualBox.org which
is free. VMware Workstation is not free but has better features IMO
(e.g., drag and drop between host and guest machines).
--
"The shadows now so long do grow,... That brambles like tall cedars
show,... Molehills seem mountains, and the ant... Appears a monstrous
elephant." --Charles Cotton's poem
RayLopez99
> > What is your experience with Virtual Machines? I'm thinking of
> > installing Visual Studio 2008 on such a VM (running XP)--while under
> > Windows 7. Do you think it will work? Or are VMs not really the same
> > as a physical machine (keep in mind Visual Studio is pretty complex--
> > not like running WordPad or something trivial).
>
> It will work, just slow. Be sure your host PC is fast and plenty of RAM.
> I use VM for testing softwares which is nice not to trash my real PCs
> and I can do snapshots to retry scenarios. :D Try VirtualBox.org which
> is free. VMware Workstation is not free but has better features IMO
> (e.g., drag and drop between host and guest machines).
> --
OK thanks Ant. I will try VirtualBox.org. I did load a VM from
Microsoft, also free, but I'll try this offering from Sun as well, as
it also runs on Microsoft Windows. Correct me if I'm wrong but I
think with a virtual machine you can, if you screw up installation of
the program, simply delete the VM and it's like nuking a HD and
starting over. I like that feature... Also I'm curious how you backup
a virtual machine, but I assume that any persistent state is stored in
some folder of the VM, so that would be like a "hard drive" on the
real machine. Presumably you can back up the 'hard drive' of the VM
by simply copying the folder someplace.
RL
Ant
No no. You can have VM programs save SNAPSHOTS. Basically making an
image of the session. So if you revert/go back to this snapshot, it goes
to the setup of THAT session.
For example:
Install new slipstreamed Windows XP Pro. SP3. Once it works. Snapshot it.
Upgrade its with updates and IE8. Save a snapshot.
Do whatever. Make a mess. Install a buggy program.
Don't like this session? Revert back to clean state with updated Windows
XP and its IE8. :).
Want to go back more to outdated clean Windows with IE6? Go back even more.
VM rocks. :)
--
"We have to break with what must be broken with once and for all... and
we have to take the suffering upon ourselves... Freedom and power--power
above all. Power over all the tumbling vermin and over all the
ant-hill!" --Fedor Dostoevsky
/\___/\ Ant @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / If crediting, then use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
( ) If e-mailing, then axe ANT from its address if needed.
Ant is/was listening to a song on this computer: Columbus - Hubble
(Radio Edit)
JeffM
>Why didn't you junk yank its HDD out and donate/sell the rest?
>
DON'T make the hardware LESS useful.
Leave the hardware intact.
Wipe the data on the drive
with Darik's Boot And Nuke (DBAN)
*ONE* pass will eradicate the contents beyond recovery.
...or use Linux's included dd command.
dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/hda
RayLopez99
Yeah I should have tried Darik's DBAN instead of just applying a
sledgehammer (which BTW did not even dent the aluminum case, contrary
to the hyperbole in my OP about splinters, but it broke the exposed
chips--just barely--rendering the drive useless to anybody except a
hardcore data thief and anyway the data on this drive was old, old
passwords, etc).
I also did not try Linux's command though I was aware of it.
RL
RayLopez99
Really? That's very cool. Well then how is data stored persistently
inbetween snapshots? There must be some folder somewhere, because
programs for example store your preferences (even and especially
Visual Studio, for example default locations where you would save
files, etc). I guess I'm asking whether a virtual machine makes use
of the hard drive and saves stuff there, so it can be used in the next
load up / session of the VM. The answer must be yes of course. Sorry
for my ignorance but this is very new to me still.
RL
RayLopez99
Ant--have you tried this virtualized browser KACE? But maybe you don't
need it if you have a VM. --RL
Use a
Virtualized
Browser
Since the vast majority of
attacks are coming from the
browser, one of the safest
ways to surf the web is from
a virtualized browser or a
virtual machine. Dell off ers
its free KACE browser
(www.kace.com), which
virtualizes Firefox 3.6
along with Adobe Reader
and Flash. Malware that
exploits holes in Firefox,
Reader, or Flash would be contained within the
virtual machine. The bad news? If you do get an
infection and need to fl ush the virtual Firefox,
you lose all of your settings. That includes the
numerous updates to Firefox that come out
seemingly every month and any bookmarks
and plugins you installed. An alternative is to
build a virtual machine using either Virtual PC
2007 (www.microsoft .com) or VM Ware Player
(www.vmware.com). Both are free, and both
Microsoft and VM Ware off er free images that
include browsers. Microsoft off ers Vista and XP
with IE8 installed and VM Ware off ers Ubuntu
with Firefox installed. Of the three options, VM
Ware’s is the most solid but folks not used to
Linux might be thrown for a loop. Microsoft ’s
images time out aft er three months, so you’ll
have to download it again.
RL
Ant
> > >>> installing Visual Studio 2008 on such a VM (running XP)--while under
> > >>> Windows 7. �Do you think it will work? �Or are VMs not really the same
> > >>> as a physical machine (keep in mind Visual Studio is pretty complex--
> > >>> not like running WordPad or something trivial).
> >
> > >> It will work, just slow. Be sure your host PC is fast and plenty of RAM.
> > >> I use VM for testing softwares which is nice not to trash my real PCs
> > >> and I can do snapshots to retry scenarios. :D Try VirtualBox.org which
> > >> is free. VMware Workstation is not free but has better features IMO
> > >> (e.g., drag and drop between host and guest machines).
> >
Datas are saved in snapshots. You can't view it easily. VMs can. Like I
said, try it. :)
--
Quote of the Week: "For every 1 person on earth there are 1 million
ants." --Factoid for the video of Adam Ant's "Goody Two Shoes" Pop Up
Video
/\___/\ Ant @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail. If crediting,
( ) then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
Ant
> On Jun 19, 12:02�am, Ant <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote:
> Ant--have you tried this virtualized browser KACE? But maybe you don't
> need it if you have a VM. --RL
I heard about it, but then I prefer a virtual machine and not a virtual
browser. :D
--
Quote of the Week: "For every 1 person on earth there are 1 million
ants." --Factoid for the video of Adam Ant's "Goody Two Shoes" Pop Up
Video
/\___/\ Ant @ http://antfarm.home.dhs.org (Personal Web Site)
/ /\ /\ \ Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
| |o o| |
\ _ / Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail. If crediting,
( ) then please kindly use Ant nickname and AQFL URL/link.
RayLopez99
> Datas are saved in snapshots. You can't view it easily. VMs can. Like I
> said, try it. :)
OK I will and thanks again. So then it stands to reason the
'snapshots', binary data that can only be read by VMs, must be huge if
you have for example Office, Visual Studio and some music files say
from iPod stored in your VM--I'm guessing your snapshot would be at
least 10 GB and probably double that.
RL
The Natural Philosopher
host.
Nor would you be storing your music or video files inside the windows
partition.
Or indeed any data at all.
Beyond that insisted upon by windows programs.
My snapshots are about 3GB each. 19GB in total (8 of em) The main C:
drive takes up 3.4GB.
But its no big deal to back that up either.
It's VIRTUAL size is 28GB, but that's only a limit beyond which it can't
grow.
You miss the whole point of desktop virtualisation: its there not to
run a windows distro as you would normally, but to run as little windows
as is necessary to launch the programs that need windows to work.
Everything else is on a linux drive mapped into the windows space as a
'networked drive' and that's where all the DATA lives. So windows can
crash away and its safe, and only the minimal amount of windows is there
to launch the very few windows programs you cant do without.
In my case windows is ONLY there to run Graphics and CAD. And
occasionally IE6 if I need to check that a web page renders with the
worst browser ever made.
Since all data is shared, and when it is running windows is simply a
mouse click away, there is no overhead in e.g. saving a file in windows
- say a graphics image - and importing it straight into a linux
application. Even cut and paste works reasonably well.
I don't expect you to understand the mentality that says 'I dont want
windows, but I need it for three or four things' and thereby constructs
a system whereby it is easy to use that way.
YOUR mentality is 'windows needs to be superior in every way, let's
construct ways to demonstrate linux s a crock of shit by picking
something Linux cant do (as well).
RayLopez99
wrote:
I was actually learning something from you post then I noticed it was
from you. So it must be wrong.
But if what you say is true there must be some data conversion of data
from Linux format to Windows format--I think Linux uses a different
file format entirely. Not Big Endian either, which is at the byte
level, but at the hard drive level.
RL
David Brown
I'm not convinced you are capable of boiling an egg, never mind figuring
out which way up it should go.
I believe the issue that you are confused about is line-endings in text
files. Unix has always used LF (character 10) as a line ending, while
Macs have always used CR (character 13). DOS, for some incomprehensible
reason, used two characters - CR + LF. This absurdity has continued,
and is the "standard" in Windows.
However, any decent program (on Linux, Macs or Windows) that deals with
text files will happily work with files with any choice of line endings,
or at least convert them when reading in a file. Of course, notepad on
Windows does not count as "decent".
The line endings used by convention for text files is irrelevant for
non-text files, which are identical on all systems.
And of course this has nothing to do with storing files from a Windows
system on a Linux filesystem, either via the VirtualBox mapped drive
described here, or using a samba file server under Linux. There you are
talking about a windows program storing files on a Linux filesystem - of
course Linux will return exactly the same bytes when the file is read as
it got when the file was written. It wouldn't matter if it stored the
file in hieroglyphics on a stone tablet, as long as the data returned is
the same as the data received.
RayLopez99
wrote:
Well thanks for the information, not the insults. Indeed line endings
are different on different OSes and the fact that in your opinion
Notepad, a workhorse ASCII file program that probably had a team of
programmers work on it, cannot work properly to handle the line
endings is proof that it is not trivial to convert between the two
systems. I also note you skirt around the issue of how the "data [is]
returned' from the "stone tablet". That is also a ton of programming
to get it done right. I have a better solution: with virtual
machines, stick with the same version of OS as your actual, real OS.
For example, if you run Windows 7, your VM should be limited to
Windows XP and other flavors of Windows. That will eliminate any
potential problems.
RL
RL
Ezekiel
"David Brown" <da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote in message
news:0rCdnTKpn5GXO53T...@lyse.net...
> On 21/06/2011 14:33, RayLopez99 wrote:
>> On Jun 21, 6:44 am, The Natural Philosopher<t...@invalid.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was actually learning something from you post then I noticed it was
>> from you. So it must be wrong.
>>
>> But if what you say is true there must be some data conversion of data
>> from Linux format to Windows format--I think Linux uses a different
>> file format entirely. Not Big Endian either, which is at the byte
>> level, but at the hard drive level.
>>
>
> I'm not convinced you are capable of boiling an egg, never mind figuring
> out which way up it should go.
>
>
> I believe the issue that you are confused about is line-endings in text
> files. Unix has always used LF (character 10) as a line ending, while
> Macs have always used CR (character 13). DOS, for some incomprehensible
> reason, used two characters - CR + LF. This absurdity has continued, and
> is the "standard" in Windows.
>
This "absurdity" is also the standard line ending for DEC TOPS-10, RT-11,
CP/M, MP/M, DOS, Atari TOS, OS/2, Microsoft Windows, Symbian OS and Palm OS.
Not to mention that CR+LF is also the standard delimiter for *most* internet
protocols including mail, NNTP, HTTP, etc, etc.
> However, any decent program (on Linux, Macs or Windows) that deals with
> text files will happily work with files with any choice of line endings,
> or at least convert them when reading in a file. Of course, notepad on
> Windows does not count as "decent".
Most text editors handle it just fine. Notepad isn't really a text editor.
It's a Windows 'edit control' that's placed into a window with a menu.
>
> The line endings used by convention for text files is irrelevant for
> non-text files, which are identical on all systems.
>
>
> And of course this has nothing to do with storing files from a Windows
> system on a Linux filesystem, either via the VirtualBox mapped drive
> described here, or using a samba file server under Linux. There you are
> talking about a windows program storing files on a Linux filesystem - of
> course Linux will return exactly the same bytes when the file is read as
> it got when the file was written. It wouldn't matter if it stored the
> file in hieroglyphics on a stone tablet, as long as the data returned is
> the same as the data received.
What you basically said. You will read out exactly what was written into the
file. Nothing more, nothing less.
The Natural Philosopher
Shows how little you know.
Of course the files are readable by both. Or you would not be ablet to
receive an image on a windows browser off an apache server. which most
web servers are.
File formats are defined by standards, not by operating systems, unless
its windows, but windows APPPLICATIONS have to work cross platform, so
no worries there.
> RL
The Natural Philosopher
What on earth would be the point of that?
> RL
>
> RL
David Brown
> "David Brown"<da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com> wrote in message
> news:0rCdnTKpn5GXO53T...@lyse.net...
>> On 21/06/2011 14:33, RayLopez99 wrote:
>>> On Jun 21, 6:44 am, The Natural Philosopher<t...@invalid.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was actually learning something from you post then I noticed it was
>>> from you. So it must be wrong.
>>>
>>> But if what you say is true there must be some data conversion of data
>>> from Linux format to Windows format--I think Linux uses a different
>>> file format entirely. Not Big Endian either, which is at the byte
>>> level, but at the hard drive level.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not convinced you are capable of boiling an egg, never mind figuring
>> out which way up it should go.
>>
>>
>> I believe the issue that you are confused about is line-endings in text
>> files. Unix has always used LF (character 10) as a line ending, while
>> Macs have always used CR (character 13). DOS, for some incomprehensible
>> reason, used two characters - CR + LF. This absurdity has continued, and
>> is the "standard" in Windows.
>>
>
> This "absurdity" is also the standard line ending for DEC TOPS-10, RT-11,
> CP/M, MP/M, DOS, Atari TOS, OS/2, Microsoft Windows, Symbian OS and Palm OS.
> Not to mention that CR+LF is also the standard delimiter for *most* internet
> protocols including mail, NNTP, HTTP, etc, etc.
>
That doesn't make it any less of an absurdity!
There were reasons for having CR+LF on the earliest systems with
teletype interfaces - printers at that time required the two separate
characters. But there was no good reason for keeping it in DOS (and
probably no good reason in CP/M either) - since software had to be
written anew anyway, and interaction between DOS and other systems was
so small, it would have been perfectly practical to choose a single
character for a line ending.
>
>> However, any decent program (on Linux, Macs or Windows) that deals with
>> text files will happily work with files with any choice of line endings,
>> or at least convert them when reading in a file. Of course, notepad on
>> Windows does not count as "decent".
>
> Most text editors handle it just fine. Notepad isn't really a text editor.
> It's a Windows 'edit control' that's placed into a window with a menu.
>
Correct.
David Brown
I thought you were a millionaire programmer. Surely you can see that it
is trivial to support alternative line endings in a simple text editor?
Notepad is not a "workhorse ASCII program", and not even MS would need a
significant "team of programmers" to work on it. An almost identical
program could be written in an afternoon by any reasonably competent
Windows programmer - including support for different line endings. The
only reason Notepad does not support Unix and Mac line endings is
because MS prefers it to be hard to work with anything that does not
live entirely in the Windows and MS world.
Ironically, the one advanced feature that Notepad does have compared to
most editor programs, is support for UTF-16 character encoding - which
is /much/ more effort than implementing alternative line endings.
> I also note you skirt around the issue of how the "data [is]
> returned' from the "stone tablet". That is also a ton of programming
> to get it done right.
There has been plenty of programming work in the development of Linux, yes.
> I have a better solution: with virtual
> machines, stick with the same version of OS as your actual, real OS.
> For example, if you run Windows 7, your VM should be limited to
> Windows XP and other flavors of Windows. That will eliminate any
> potential problems.
>
There is /no/ problem - potential or real. It is only in your
imagination, and your determination to find some fault whenever Linux is
mentioned.
Look, the world runs on Linux servers - they are found everywhere. If
there were problems storing files from a Windows desktop on a Linux
machine, someone would have noticed by now.
RayLopez99
wrote:
Not trivial at all. You don't code do you? You'd know that extended
ASCII support is not trivial. You need to reference the correct
library and library function in your assembly but it's not a five
minute operation unless you've done it before.
>
> Notepad is not a "workhorse ASCII program", and not even MS would need a
> significant "team of programmers" to work on it. An almost identical
> program could be written in an afternoon by any reasonably competent
> Windows programmer - including support for different line endings. The
> only reason Notepad does not support Unix and Mac line endings is
> because MS prefers it to be hard to work with anything that does not
> live entirely in the Windows and MS world.
>
> Ironically, the one advanced feature that Notepad does have compared to
> most editor programs, is support for UTF-16 character encoding - which
> is /much/ more effort than implementing alternative line endings.
It's the same thing actually. You're just too dumb to see it. The
same family of problems even though newline and CR are in standard
ASCII.
>
> > I also note you skirt around the issue of how the "data [is]
> > returned' from the "stone tablet". That is also a ton of programming
> > to get it done right.
>
> There has been plenty of programming work in the development of Linux, yes.
>
> > I have a better solution: with virtual
> > machines, stick with the same version of OS as your actual, real OS.
> > For example, if you run Windows 7, your VM should be limited to
> > Windows XP and other flavors of Windows. That will eliminate any
> > potential problems.
>
> There is /no/ problem - potential or real. It is only in your
> imagination, and your determination to find some fault whenever Linux is
> mentioned.
>
> Look, the world runs on Linux servers - they are found everywhere. If
> there were problems storing files from a Windows desktop on a Linux
> machine, someone would have noticed by now.
Nope. Read this article and when you lern something get back to me:
http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/141378
And keep in mind they are talking about characters not binary data.
Binary data and reading /writing from the stream in Linux and Windows
has its own problems.
RL
Linux tools to convert file formats
By Federico Kereki on July 22, 2008 (4:00:00 PM)
Share Print Comments
Life would be a lot easier if we could live in a Linux-only world and
if applications never required data from other sources. However, the
need to get data from Windows, MS-DOS, or old Macintosh systems is all
too common. This kind of import process requires some conversions to
solve file format differences; otherwise, it would be impossible to
share data, or file contents would be imported incorrectly. The
easiest way to transfer data between systems is by using plain text
files or common formats like comma-separated value (CSV) files.
However, converting such files from Windows or Mac OS results in
formatting differences for the newline characters and character
encoding. This article explains why we have these problems and shows
ways to solve them.
David Brown
Do you know the phrase "when you're in a hole, stop digging"? You have
totally failed to understand the issue, have absolutely no concept as to
how it might be solved, and apparently no nothing about how programs are
written.
Google for line endings, CR+LF, etc., and see if you hit something you
can comprehend.
>>
>> Notepad is not a "workhorse ASCII program", and not even MS would need a
>> significant "team of programmers" to work on it. An almost identical
>> program could be written in an afternoon by any reasonably competent
>> Windows programmer - including support for different line endings. The
>> only reason Notepad does not support Unix and Mac line endings is
>> because MS prefers it to be hard to work with anything that does not
>> live entirely in the Windows and MS world.
>>
>> Ironically, the one advanced feature that Notepad does have compared to
>> most editor programs, is support for UTF-16 character encoding - which
>> is /much/ more effort than implementing alternative line endings.
>
> It's the same thing actually. You're just too dumb to see it. The
> same family of problems even though newline and CR are in standard
> ASCII.
>
Again, you have no concept of what you are saying yourself, never mind
what anyone else is saying.
>>
>>> I also note you skirt around the issue of how the "data [is]
>>> returned' from the "stone tablet". That is also a ton of programming
>>> to get it done right.
>>
>> There has been plenty of programming work in the development of Linux, yes.
>>
>>> I have a better solution: with virtual
>>> machines, stick with the same version of OS as your actual, real OS.
>>> For example, if you run Windows 7, your VM should be limited to
>>> Windows XP and other flavors of Windows. That will eliminate any
>>> potential problems.
>>
>> There is /no/ problem - potential or real. It is only in your
>> imagination, and your determination to find some fault whenever Linux is
>> mentioned.
>>
>> Look, the world runs on Linux servers - they are found everywhere. If
>> there were problems storing files from a Windows desktop on a Linux
>> machine, someone would have noticed by now.
>
> Nope. Read this article and when you lern something get back to me:
> http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/141378
>
As I said, there are no problems saving files from Windows to a Linux
system and reading them back again. Nothing in that article indicates
anything different. Any time you save a file on a system and read it
back, you will get the same file with the same line endings and same
encodings as you started with.
If you have a file saved with one line ending, and try to open it with a
program that only works with a different line ending, then you will have
problems. This is totally independent of the OS and applies equally to
Linux and Windows programs. Similarly, if you have a file with one type
of character encoding, and you view it using a different character
encoding, you will have problems. Again, this is independent of the OS.
You can demonstrate this by writing some text in Notepad and saving it
in utf-16 format. Then open a command prompt and "type" that same file
- it will look a mess. All from within Windows.
And all of which has nothing to do with line endings, and nothing to do
with the fact that you can store Windows files on a Linux system.
Mind you, I should thank you for that link - I was not aware of the
recode utility. I have rarely needed to do such character encoding
conversion, and have normally just used a text editor (/not/ notepad).
But it's nice to know of a command-line utility that does the job too.
> And keep in mind they are talking about characters not binary data.
> Binary data and reading /writing from the stream in Linux and Windows
> has its own problems.
>
There are no such problems outside of your fantasies.
Keep in mind that people do this stuff all the time. Like many
companies, my company use Linux servers to store all their data, and
mostly Windows on the desktop (with some Linux desktops too). I also
use Windows and Linux virtual machines on both Windows and Linux hosts.
I believe I would have noticed if there were problems transporting
either text or binary files between the systems.
> RL
>
> Linux tools to convert file formats
> By Federico Kereki on July 22, 2008 (4:00:00 PM)
> Share Print Comments
>
> Life would be a lot easier if we could live in a Linux-only world and
> if applications never required data from other sources. However, the
> need to get data from Windows, MS-DOS, or old Macintosh systems is all
> too common. This kind of import process requires some conversions to
> solve file format differences; otherwise, it would be impossible to
> share data, or file contents would be imported incorrectly. The
> easiest way to transfer data between systems is by using plain text
> files or common formats like comma-separated value (CSV) files.
> However, converting such files from Windows or Mac OS results in
> formatting differences for the newline characters and character
> encoding. This article explains why we have these problems and shows
> ways to solve them.
If you read this a few more times, you may gradually come to understand
some of it.
The Natural Philosopher
yes.
You'd know that extended
> ASCII support is not trivial. You need to reference the correct
> library and library function in your assembly but it's not a five
> minute operation unless you've done it before.
>
er, no.
Linux does all that for me :-)
All i learnt from that is that you must be pretty darn stupid to think
that's been a problem in the last 15 years.
And, to be strictly honest I knew that already.
> And keep in mind they are talking about characters not binary data.
> Binary data and reading /writing from the stream in Linux and Windows
> has its own problems.
>
Characters are binary data.
RayLopez99
wrote:
> Again, you have no concept of what you are saying yourself, never mind
> what anyone else is saying.
Nope. Personal attack noted.
> > Nope. Read this article and when you lern something get back to me:
> >http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/141378
>
> As I said, there are no problems saving files from Windows to a Linux
> system and reading them back again. Nothing in that article indicates
> anything different. Any time you save a file on a system and read it
> back, you will get the same file with the same line endings and same
> encodings as you started with.
Nope. If you convert a file from Linux to Windows and back again 10M
times, I bet you'd have problems somewhere. that was actually
demonstrated on Excel by a professor a decade or more ago, and I'm
sure a high number of I/O conversions would yield a similar error.
>
> If you have a file saved with one line ending, and try to open it with a
> program that only works with a different line ending, then you will have
> problems. This is totally independent of the OS and applies equally to
> Linux and Windows programs.
Nope. We're talking file systems. Handled by the OS at a low level.
> Similarly, if you have a file with one type
> of character encoding, and you view it using a different character
> encoding, you will have problems. Again, this is independent of the OS.
>
Nope. Embedded in the OS. Try harder.
> You can demonstrate this by writing some text in Notepad and saving it
> in utf-16 format. Then open a command prompt and "type" that same file
> - it will look a mess. All from within Windows.
Nope. You are confusing ASCII with extended ASCII.
>
> And all of which has nothing to do with line endings, and nothing to do
> with the fact that you can store Windows files on a Linux system.
Nope, see above.
>
> Mind you, I should thank you for that link - I was not aware of the
> recode utility.
You are ignorant of many things, young grasshopper.
> I have rarely needed to do such character encoding
> conversion, and have normally just used a text editor (/not/ notepad).
> But it's nice to know of a command-line utility that does the job too.
Nope.
>
> > And keep in mind they are talking about characters not binary data.
> > Binary data and reading /writing from the stream in Linux and Windows
> > has its own problems.
>
> There are no such problems outside of your fantasies.
Nope.
>
> Keep in mind that people do this stuff all the time. Like many
> companies, my company use Linux servers to store all their data, and
> mostly Windows on the desktop (with some Linux desktops too). I also
> use Windows and Linux virtual machines on both Windows and Linux hosts.
> I believe I would have noticed if there were problems transporting
> either text or binary files between the systems.
Nope. You are pretty ignorant, a low level grunt who is simply an
expendable (once Azure gains market share) IT hack.
RL
David Brown
> On Jun 21, 11:33 pm, David Brown<david.br...@removethis.hesbynett.no>
> wrote:
>> Again, you have no concept of what you are saying yourself, never mind
>> what anyone else is saying.
>
> Nope. Personal attack noted.
It's not an attack - it's a statement of fact (assuming, of course, that
you are actually as ignorant as you appear to be, rather than just
pretending).
Given the large number of ad hominem, inappropriate, and incorrect
insults you have made against me (and most others here, including those
that try to help you), I assume that this is just the way you like to
converse.
>
>
>>> Nope. Read this article and when you lern something get back to me:
>>> http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/141378
>>
>> As I said, there are no problems saving files from Windows to a Linux
>> system and reading them back again. Nothing in that article indicates
>> anything different. Any time you save a file on a system and read it
>> back, you will get the same file with the same line endings and same
>> encodings as you started with.
>
> Nope. If you convert a file from Linux to Windows and back again 10M
> times, I bet you'd have problems somewhere. that was actually
> demonstrated on Excel by a professor a decade or more ago, and I'm
> sure a high number of I/O conversions would yield a similar error.
>
Again, you are talking from complete and total ignorance. There is no
such thing as "convert a file from Linux to Windows" (or "I/O
conversions"). And even if there were, then the "conversion" would be
either correct or incorrect - repeating the conversion 10M times would
not change that.
Perhaps what this mythical professor was doing is converting an Excel
file to an OpenOffice file (or StarOffice or gnumeric file, if it was a
decade ago). In the conversion of a file format like that, there may be
some artefacts of the conversion process that build up as you convert
back and forth. As a simple (but made-up) example, suppose that when
converting the expression "A1 + A2" from one format to the other, an
extra pair of brackets is added "(A1 + A2)". The conversion would still
be correct, but if repeated 10M times you would get "((...(A1 +
A2)...))" - eventually reaching the limit of the number of nested
parenthesis the program (Excel, StarOffice, gnumeric, etc.) can work with.
But, as usual, this mythical professor with his mythical problem is
totally unrelated to your imaginary issues with storing Windows files on
Linux.
>
>>
>> If you have a file saved with one line ending, and try to open it with a
>> program that only works with a different line ending, then you will have
>> problems. This is totally independent of the OS and applies equally to
>> Linux and Windows programs.
>
> Nope. We're talking file systems. Handled by the OS at a low level.
>
It's hard to know what /you/ are talking about, since you don't
understand about files, file systems, or operating systems.
Filesystems store files. You give them a file - a bunch of bytes - and
later on, when you ask for it back, you get that same bunch of bytes.
It's quite simple. The OS doesn't look inside the file or make any
changes to it underway. It doesn't care if it is "text" or "binary", or
what character encoding was used, or what line ending was used, or what
program in what OS made the file. It's just a bunch of bytes.
>
>> Similarly, if you have a file with one type
>> of character encoding, and you view it using a different character
>> encoding, you will have problems. Again, this is independent of the OS.
>>
>
> Nope. Embedded in the OS. Try harder.
>
/What/ is "embedded in the OS"? Line-endings? Character encodings?
I use text files with different line endings and different character
encodings on both Windows and Linux - it is not "embedded in the OS".
By default, Unix programs use LF line endings and Windows programs use
CR+LF. That also applies to files used by the OS - Windows wants CR+LF
line endings for .bat and .ini files, for example, and Linux wants LF
line endings for configuration files. But either system will happily
store files with either line ending, and programs such as text editors
will happily work with either on either OS.
>> You can demonstrate this by writing some text in Notepad and saving it
>> in utf-16 format. Then open a command prompt and "type" that same file
>> - it will look a mess. All from within Windows.
>
> Nope. You are confusing ASCII with extended ASCII.
>
I am not confusing anything, but it turns out that "type" also supports
litte-endian utf-16 format. That was a bad guess from me - I didn't
have any windows systems available conveniently for testing. Now, try
again from Notepad but safe the files in UTF-8 or "Unicode big-endian"
(which is utf-16 big endian) format. You don't even have to use
non-ASCII characters - "Hello world" is enough.
>>
>> And all of which has nothing to do with line endings, and nothing to do
>> with the fact that you can store Windows files on a Linux system.
>
> Nope, see above.
>
It's /really/ difficult trying to break through your wilful ignorance.
>>
>> Mind you, I should thank you for that link - I was not aware of the
>> recode utility.
>
> You are ignorant of many things, young grasshopper.
>
Everyone is ignorant of many things - but ignorance has a cure. I have
a fairly good understand of what I know about, and what I don't know
about, and am happy to learn.
I don't think your brand of determined stupidity has much hope, however.
>> I have rarely needed to do such character encoding
>> conversion, and have normally just used a text editor (/not/ notepad).
>> But it's nice to know of a command-line utility that does the job too.
>
> Nope.
>
Pardon? What are you denying here - that "recode" does the job
described in the article you found, or that I like to know about such
utilities? Or perhaps you know more than I do about how often /I/ need
to change character encodings, or the tools I use for such things?
>>
>>> And keep in mind they are talking about characters not binary data.
>>> Binary data and reading /writing from the stream in Linux and Windows
>>> has its own problems.
>>
>> There are no such problems outside of your fantasies.
>
> Nope.
>
Well, we are all still waiting for an example of such problems.
Everyone else happily mixes Linux and Windows for file storage of both
text and non-text files, without problems. You linked to an article
about utilities to change line endings and character encodings - while
it was somewhat interesting, it is irrelevant to your imaginary
problems. And you mentioned a mythical professor a decade ago who had
trouble with Excel.
Do you have any concrete, real-world examples of the "problems" with
"file conversions" when storing windows files on a Linux filesystem?
>>
>> Keep in mind that people do this stuff all the time. Like many
>> companies, my company use Linux servers to store all their data, and
>> mostly Windows on the desktop (with some Linux desktops too). I also
>> use Windows and Linux virtual machines on both Windows and Linux hosts.
>> I believe I would have noticed if there were problems transporting
>> either text or binary files between the systems.
>
> Nope. You are pretty ignorant, a low level grunt who is simply an
> expendable (once Azure gains market share) IT hack.
>
I googled "Azure market share". Here are some top links:
<http://www.vcritical.com/2010/07/microsoft-seeks-to-stem-azure-exodus-with-huge-appliance/>
<http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsofts-weakest-cloud-link-the-windows-azure-console/5203>
<http://searchitchannel.techtarget.com/news/1350979/Microsoft-Azure-fails-Smartphone-sales-sag>
If you've got a link that shows Azure having a significant and/or
growing market share, you could post it here.
The Natural Philosopher
ignorance it almost beggars belief that its is capable of actually
typing a Usenet post.
And it led to the thought.. what sort of minimum intelligence level is
needed to actually run a computer?
I have this sort of basic tenet...
People with money and no sense buy apple.
People with less money and no sense get sold windows.
People with a lot of sense install Linux.
BUT how long will the last in times of global recession and cutbacks in
public spending on employing people with no sense ?
Plus we have 'cloud computing' whereby the complete turkey can buy some
'thing' with a screen, splodge his pudgy fingers over it, press buttons
and download 'apps' and get his account debited (assuming there is any
money in it, which seems increasingly unlikely) without being aware of
who what or why any of it works, or what operating systems the component
parts are in fact running (mostly some form of *nix, but who cares?).
This might be the end of the personal computer as we know it, and
Windows too...
...so where does that leave the corporate desktop? How long before a
bank of hypervised Linux servers are running the corporate 'cloud' and
the equivalent of a Wyse 50 or VT100 moderately thick client, with no
disk at all, is actually doing the job of displaying the pretty pictures
and accepting the keystrokes, with any software it needs held centrally
as a downloadable Java 'app'?
It's an attractive thought.
That pushes the traditional PC - a machine with RAM and Disks, and
general purpose capability , into a niche..the sort of niche where
performance is really significant, like perhaps specialist typesetting
or graphic design, only.
We can but hope so, because it may finally and forever put an end to teh
Lopez 'walks through ignorance' as it becomes apparent even to him, that
he was a footsoldier in a war that was already over long before he even
learned what it was about.
Hadron
You can almost smell the google...
Listen : its there for a reason. Suck it up and stop pretending you knew
better back when.
> there was no good reason for keeping it in DOS (and probably no good reason in
> CP/M either) - since software had to be written anew anyway, and interaction
> between DOS and other systems was so small, it would have been perfectly
> practical to choose a single character for a line ending.
As only you know...
Because of course existing data was non existent.
RayLopez99
wrote:
> On 22/06/2011 00:30, RayLopez99 wrote:
>
> > On Jun 21, 11:33 pm, David Brown<david.br...@removethis.hesbynett.no>
> > wrote:
> >> Again, you have no concept of what you are saying yourself, never mind
> >> what anyone else is saying.
>
> > Nope. Personal attack noted.
>
> It's not an attack - it's a statement of fact (assuming, of course, that
> you are actually as ignorant as you appear to be, rather than just
> pretending).
>
> Given the large number of ad hominem, inappropriate, and incorrect
> insults you have made against me (and most others here, including those
> that try to help you), I assume that this is just the way you like to
> converse.
Two wrongs don't make a right, or two Wongs don't make a White, to
paraphrase the Abercrombie & Fitch T-shirt from about 10 years ago.
Nope. The conversion was a hardware defect with a 386 math co-
processor--so perhaps it was more like 20 years ago. Anyway, the
point being mistakes happen.
>
>
> >> If you have a file saved with one line ending, and try to open it with a
> >> program that only works with a different line ending, then you will have
> >> problems. This is totally independent of the OS and applies equally to
> >> Linux and Windows programs.
>
> > Nope. We're talking file systems. Handled by the OS at a low level.
>
> It's hard to know what /you/ are talking about, since you don't
> understand about files, file systems, or operating systems.
>
> Filesystems store files. You give them a file - a bunch of bytes - and
> later on, when you ask for it back, you get that same bunch of bytes.
> It's quite simple. The OS doesn't look inside the file or make any
> changes to it underway. It doesn't care if it is "text" or "binary", or
> what character encoding was used, or what line ending was used, or what
> program in what OS made the file. It's just a bunch of bytes.
Nope. There's a difference between binary and text, even though both
are stored as bytes. If you were a programmer you'd know about this
(supported in the library files).
>
>
>
> >> Similarly, if you have a file with one type
> >> of character encoding, and you view it using a different character
> >> encoding, you will have problems. Again, this is independent of the OS.
>
> > Nope. Embedded in the OS. Try harder.
>
> /What/ is "embedded in the OS"? Line-endings? Character encodings?
No time to teach you--I'm not an instructor.
>
> I use text files with different line endings and different character
> encodings on both Windows and Linux - it is not "embedded in the OS".
> By default, Unix programs use LF line endings and Windows programs use
> CR+LF. That also applies to files used by the OS - Windows wants CR+LF
> line endings for .bat and .ini files, for example, and Linux wants LF
> line endings for configuration files. But either system will happily
> store files with either line ending, and programs such as text editors
> will happily work with either on either OS.
>
> >> You can demonstrate this by writing some text in Notepad and saving it
> >> in utf-16 format. Then open a command prompt and "type" that same file
> >> - it will look a mess. All from within Windows.
>
> > Nope. You are confusing ASCII with extended ASCII.
>
> I am not confusing anything, but it turns out that "type" also supports
> litte-endian utf-16 format. That was a bad guess from me - I didn't
> have any windows systems available conveniently for testing. Now, try
> again from Notepad but safe the files in UTF-8 or "Unicode big-endian"
> (which is utf-16 big endian) format. You don't even have to use
> non-ASCII characters - "Hello world" is enough.
Your admission that you were wrong ("bad guess") is gratefully
acknowledged. You are a bigger man than I thought.
>
>
>
> >> And all of which has nothing to do with line endings, and nothing to do
> >> with the fact that you can store Windows files on a Linux system.
>
> > Nope, see above.
>
> It's /really/ difficult trying to break through your wilful ignorance.
Nope. Not difficult at all.
> > Nope. You are pretty ignorant, a low level grunt who is simply an
> > expendable (once Azure gains market share) IT hack.
>
> I googled "Azure market share". Here are some top links:
>
> <http://www.vcritical.com/2010/07/microsoft-seeks-to-stem-azure-exodus...>
>
> <http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsofts-weakest-cloud-link-the...>
>
> <http://searchitchannel.techtarget.com/news/1350979/Microsoft-Azure-fa...>
>
> If you've got a link that shows Azure having a significant and/or
> growing market share, you could post it here.
The first link was the most relevant. It is a year old, but
interesting. It's speculation, but not unsound. I repeat the salient
paragraph below. Question for you, young grasshopper, from the me,
the master, as to whether resistance to Azure is from IT professionals
afraid of adopting it and losing their jobs?
RL
Customers leaving Azure in droves?
I recently acquired an email from Microsoft, desperately seeking to
address an apparent exodus of customers from Windows Azure:
My team is working to understand why some of our valued customers
have stopped using their Windows Azure platform subscription(s). I am
emailing today to ask you to complete a short survey on why you have
stopped using our service.
We will use this information to improve our platform and address
issues that may have led you to stop using your subscription. We take
your feedback seriously and it will lead to direct action.
Whatever the reason for this sudden shift may be, the most succinct
take on the announcement goes to Om Malik, who concluded in this
GigaOM article:
Microsoft, it seems, is merely following what is en vogue these
days.
Interesting strategy shift: If customers won’t come to your
proprietary platform, see if you can trap them inside a box right in
their own own datacenter. Cloud computing at its finest.
David Brown
So a hardware problem that someone had twenty years ago (note that Linux
is coming up to its 20th birthday shortly) makes you worry about saving
Windows files on a Linux filesystem?
I've read a fair number of your posts in these groups, but I don't think
I've seen anything quite as bizarre as that one.
>
>>
>>
>>>> If you have a file saved with one line ending, and try to open it with a
>>>> program that only works with a different line ending, then you will have
>>>> problems. This is totally independent of the OS and applies equally to
>>>> Linux and Windows programs.
>>
>>> Nope. We're talking file systems. Handled by the OS at a low level.
>>
>> It's hard to know what /you/ are talking about, since you don't
>> understand about files, file systems, or operating systems.
>>
>> Filesystems store files. You give them a file - a bunch of bytes - and
>> later on, when you ask for it back, you get that same bunch of bytes.
>> It's quite simple. The OS doesn't look inside the file or make any
>> changes to it underway. It doesn't care if it is "text" or "binary", or
>> what character encoding was used, or what line ending was used, or what
>> program in what OS made the file. It's just a bunch of bytes.
>
> Nope. There's a difference between binary and text, even though both
> are stored as bytes. If you were a programmer you'd know about this
> (supported in the library files).
>
I /am/ a programmer - though you don't need to be a programmer to
understand that files are a bunch of bytes, and that to the file system,
there is no difference between a text file and a binary file.
You seem to think I am an "IT grunt" - I am also the entire IT
department for two companies (about 80 people altogether). One of the
reasons I use Linux on the servers is that it all just works, so that I
don't have to spend time on it - the "IT" side of my job takes only
about 10-15% of my time.
>
>>
>>>> Similarly, if you have a file with one type
>>>> of character encoding, and you view it using a different character
>>>> encoding, you will have problems. Again, this is independent of the OS.
>>
>>> Nope. Embedded in the OS. Try harder.
>>
>> /What/ is "embedded in the OS"? Line-endings? Character encodings?
>
> No time to teach you--I'm not an instructor.
>
No, indeed - you can't instruct what you don't understand yourself.
>>
>> I use text files with different line endings and different character
>> encodings on both Windows and Linux - it is not "embedded in the OS".
>> By default, Unix programs use LF line endings and Windows programs use
>> CR+LF. That also applies to files used by the OS - Windows wants CR+LF
>> line endings for .bat and .ini files, for example, and Linux wants LF
>> line endings for configuration files. But either system will happily
>> store files with either line ending, and programs such as text editors
>> will happily work with either on either OS.
>>
>>>> You can demonstrate this by writing some text in Notepad and saving it
>>>> in utf-16 format. Then open a command prompt and "type" that same file
>>>> - it will look a mess. All from within Windows.
>>
>>> Nope. You are confusing ASCII with extended ASCII.
>>
>> I am not confusing anything, but it turns out that "type" also supports
>> litte-endian utf-16 format. That was a bad guess from me - I didn't
>> have any windows systems available conveniently for testing. Now, try
>> again from Notepad but safe the files in UTF-8 or "Unicode big-endian"
>> (which is utf-16 big endian) format. You don't even have to use
>> non-ASCII characters - "Hello world" is enough.
>
>
> Your admission that you were wrong ("bad guess") is gratefully
> acknowledged. You are a bigger man than I thought.
>
And your complete inability to understand the rest of what I wrote, as
well as your unwillingness to try a quick experiment yourself, is also
acknowledged. You are an even smaller man than I thought.
>>
>>
>>
>>>> And all of which has nothing to do with line endings, and nothing to do
>>>> with the fact that you can store Windows files on a Linux system.
>>
>>> Nope, see above.
>>
>> It's /really/ difficult trying to break through your wilful ignorance.
>
> Nope. Not difficult at all.
>
Have you learned anything at all through all your posts in these
newsgroups? I have seen no evidence of it.
>>> Nope. You are pretty ignorant, a low level grunt who is simply an
>>> expendable (once Azure gains market share) IT hack.
>>
>> I googled "Azure market share". Here are some top links:
>>
>> <http://www.vcritical.com/2010/07/microsoft-seeks-to-stem-azure-exodus...>
>>
>> <http://www.zdnet.com/blog/microsoft/microsofts-weakest-cloud-link-the...>
>>
>> <http://searchitchannel.techtarget.com/news/1350979/Microsoft-Azure-fa...>
>>
>> If you've got a link that shows Azure having a significant and/or
>> growing market share, you could post it here.
>
> The first link was the most relevant. It is a year old, but
> interesting. It's speculation, but not unsound. I repeat the salient
> paragraph below. Question for you, young grasshopper, from the me,
> the master, as to whether resistance to Azure is from IT professionals
> afraid of adopting it and losing their jobs?
>
The resistance to Azure is mostly because it is crap.
There is a certain movement towards "cloud computing", but people almost
always choose /real/ companies with a solid solution at a sensible
price, with a good reputation and an open and flexible choice of system.
Thus Amazon and Google dominate. If you first decide to move your
systems out of the office and into the cloud, why would you pick a
company with a locked and limited system choice (locked to Windows, of
all things - a system that requires a mouse and a gui for a simple
server), and a poor record for providing any sort of internet services?
If "cloud computing" means anything at all, it means freedom from
hardware or software lock-in. It means being able to scale up or down
in requirements as needed - Linux scales, Windows does not. Google and
Amazon scale, MS does not.
The only people interested in Azure are the most ardent MS sycophants,
and there are fewer of these every day.
> RL
>
> Customers leaving Azure in droves?
>
> I recently acquired an email from Microsoft, desperately seeking to
> address an apparent exodus of customers from Windows Azure:
>
> My team is working to understand why some of our valued customers
> have stopped using their Windows Azure platform subscription(s). I am
> emailing today to ask you to complete a short survey on why you have
> stopped using our service.
>
> We will use this information to improve our platform and address
> issues that may have led you to stop using your subscription. We take
> your feedback seriously and it will lead to direct action.
>
> Whatever the reason for this sudden shift may be, the most succinct
> take on the announcement goes to Om Malik, who concluded in this
> GigaOM article:
>
> Microsoft, it seems, is merely following what is en vogue these
> days.
>
> Interesting strategy shift: If customers won�t come to your
David Brown
Teletype interfaces were before my day, but I still know a bit about how
they work.
>
> Listen : its there for a reason. Suck it up and stop pretending you knew
> better back when.
>
>> there was no good reason for keeping it in DOS (and probably no good reason in
>> CP/M either) - since software had to be written anew anyway, and interaction
>> between DOS and other systems was so small, it would have been perfectly
>> practical to choose a single character for a line ending.
>
> As only you know...
>
> Because of course existing data was non existent.
>
Yes, I am fully aware that the choice was for compatibility. But at the
time when DOS (and CP/M before it) was first created, there were other
systems around (such as early Unix) that used a single LF line-ending.
The designers could equally well have chosen compatibility with those
systems.
Using two characters for a line ending was a mistake. It may have been
made for good reasons, and may have made most sense at the time. But in
the long run, it was a bad choice. It's like many other bad choices we
live with today, such as the layout of the qwerty keyboard, or the x86
architecture. It's easy to see /why/ they are the way they are, and
often there were no wrong decisions along the way, but the result is
definitely sub-optimal.
RayLopez99
wrote:
> > Nope. There's a difference between binary and text, even though both
> > are stored as bytes. If you were a programmer you'd know about this
> > (supported in the library files).
>
> I /am/ a programmer - though you don't need to be a programmer to
> understand that files are a bunch of bytes, and that to the file system,
> there is no difference between a text file and a binary file.
You need to study the differences between stream adapters like
StreamReader / Writer and BinaryReader/Writer and XMLReader / Writer,
then Backing Store Streams like FileStream, MemoryStream,
NetworkStream in C#. Though it's true they all ultimately deal with
raw bytes (and in that respect you are correct) it's not true that
'text is binary' as you so naively imply.
>
> You seem to think I am an "IT grunt" - I am also the entire IT
> department for two companies (about 80 people altogether). One of the
> reasons I use Linux on the servers is that it all just works, so that I
> don't have to spend time on it - the "IT" side of my job takes only
> about 10-15% of my time.
>
And if programming takes 10-15% of your time, what do you spend the
other 70-80% of your time on? Flaming here? You're fired.
> > Your admission that you were wrong ("bad guess") is gratefully
> > acknowledged. You are a bigger man than I thought.
>
> And your complete inability to understand the rest of what I wrote, as
> well as your unwillingness to try a quick experiment yourself, is also
> acknowledged. You are an even smaller man than I thought.
Nice symmetry. You must have done well in english composition.
>
>
>
> >>>> And all of which has nothing to do with line endings, and nothing to do
> >>>> with the fact that you can store Windows files on a Linux system.
>
> >>> Nope, see above.
>
> >> It's /really/ difficult trying to break through your wilful ignorance.
>
> > Nope. Not difficult at all.
>
> Have you learned anything at all through all your posts in these
> newsgroups? I have seen no evidence of it.
You are the evidence, troll bait.
> The only people interested in Azure are the most ardent MS sycophants,
> and there are fewer of these every day.
No. I think the truth is the Azure pricing scheme is a little hard to
figure out, but it's a concept that will work with time. Resistance
is probably from IT professionals who feel threatened by Azure. I
don't think the Amazon API, which is nothing but a poorly documented
series of web service calls, can compete with the Azure platform.
RL
David Brown
> On Jun 22, 1:51 pm, David Brown<da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com>
> wrote:
>
>>> Nope. There's a difference between binary and text, even though both
>>> are stored as bytes. If you were a programmer you'd know about this
>>> (supported in the library files).
>>
>> I /am/ a programmer - though you don't need to be a programmer to
>> understand that files are a bunch of bytes, and that to the file system,
>> there is no difference between a text file and a binary file.
>
> You need to study the differences between stream adapters like
> StreamReader / Writer and BinaryReader/Writer and XMLReader / Writer,
> then Backing Store Streams like FileStream, MemoryStream,
> NetworkStream in C#. Though it's true they all ultimately deal with
> raw bytes (and in that respect you are correct) it's not true that
> 'text is binary' as you so naively imply.
>
You need to understand that C# is just a java wannabe, and its overly
complicated methods of working with files bears no relationship to what
is on a disk.
A file is a bunch of bytes. That's it.
>>
>> You seem to think I am an "IT grunt" - I am also the entire IT
>> department for two companies (about 80 people altogether). One of the
>> reasons I use Linux on the servers is that it all just works, so that I
>> don't have to spend time on it - the "IT" side of my job takes only
>> about 10-15% of my time.
>>
>
> And if programming takes 10-15% of your time, what do you spend the
> other 70-80% of your time on? Flaming here? You're fired.
>
Since you only use one of your brain cells to read, what do you use the
other one for?
I said I spend about 10-15% of my time on IT - the rest is programming.
>>> Your admission that you were wrong ("bad guess") is gratefully
>>> acknowledged. You are a bigger man than I thought.
>>
>> And your complete inability to understand the rest of what I wrote, as
>> well as your unwillingness to try a quick experiment yourself, is also
>> acknowledged. You are an even smaller man than I thought.
>
> Nice symmetry. You must have done well in english composition.
>
I did indeed do well at English - I even learned about capital letters.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>>> And all of which has nothing to do with line endings, and nothing to do
>>>>>> with the fact that you can store Windows files on a Linux system.
>>
>>>>> Nope, see above.
>>
>>>> It's /really/ difficult trying to break through your wilful ignorance.
>>
>>> Nope. Not difficult at all.
>>
>> Have you learned anything at all through all your posts in these
>> newsgroups? I have seen no evidence of it.
>
> You are the evidence, troll bait.
>
>> The only people interested in Azure are the most ardent MS sycophants,
>> and there are fewer of these every day.
>
> No. I think the truth is the Azure pricing scheme is a little hard to
> figure out, but it's a concept that will work with time. Resistance
> is probably from IT professionals who feel threatened by Azure. I
> don't think the Amazon API, which is nothing but a poorly documented
> series of web service calls, can compete with the Azure platform.
>
You can try and think if you want, but your opinions are seldom in line
with the rest of the world.