Why aren't more programs portable
J44xm
and I'm transferring many of my applications there and finding that they
write their settings (or sometimes some other information) to the Registry
and not to the application folder. Is there a reason more software authors
choose to use the Registry instead of an .ini or .dat file or something?
This is pretty frustrating.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
dave_test
running them from the portable hard drive would work. That would have
worked fine with DOS 6.22, not so well with Windows. Even Windows 3.1
had a registry, but it wasn't as important back then.
Saving settings in INI files started being frowned upon by Microsoft
starting with Windows 95. As you have discovered, 99% of Windows
programs today will need the registry, that is why you have to run a
setup program instead of just copying the files as was done in the DOS
days.
Bill Turner
> Opting for no install programs that don't write to the Registry is the
> same as opting to continue to run DOS when the rest of the world has
> moved on to newer Operating Systems.
_________________________________________________
Really? Forte's Agent, one of the best email and newsreader
combinations around, doesn't need the Registry at all. It is completely
portable and works on all flavors of Windows. When you need to, just
copy the entire Agent folder to another computer or drive and it works.
I gave it up because it doesn't support html based email. If they ever
add html support I'll go back to it.
The point is, it can be done, as all Linux users know.
Bill T.
Sam Francke
>Forte's Agent, one of the best email and newsreader
>combinations around, doesn't need the Registry at all. It is completely
>portable and works on all flavors of Windows. When you need to, just
>copy the entire Agent folder to another computer or drive and it works.
>
>I gave it up because it doesn't support html based email. If they ever
>add html support I'll go back to it.
>
Maybe if they support HTML e-mail they need Microsofts DLL's and his
Registry?
--
with kind regards / met vriendelijke groeten
Sam Francke
andrew at portablefreeware dot com
The Windows registry is not all good, and problems with it are well
known. It is one central point of weakness, and difficult to maintain
and migrate.
With .NET, Microsoft is backtracking and is now recommending that
application settings be written as XML files to the user profile folder
instead of the registry.
Regards.
--
Andrew Lee
The Portable Freeware Collection
http://www.portablefreeware.com/
Mel wrote:
> What Is a Windows System Registry?
> The system registry is one of the most important parts of a
> Windows-based computer system. The registry is a system-defined database
> used by the Windows operating system to store configuration information.
> Most Windows applications write data to the registry during
> installation, and system components store and retrieve configuration
> data through the registry. The data stored in the registry varies
> according to the version of Microsoft Windows.
>
> How Applications Use the Registry
> Applications use the registry in several ways. They can add data to your
> registry by creating or opening existing keys. When applications add to
> the registry, the data is sorted by computer-specific data or
> user-specific data. Through this distinction applications can support
> multiple users and locate user profile data. An application can close a
> key and write the data it contains into the registry and applications
> can delete a value from a key or delete a key. Applications can also
> save specific data, or parts of the system registry in a file to load
> that file into the registry which is common when large amounts of data
> is being handled, or when multiple entries are being added to the
> registry.
>
> In Windows 3.1, INI or initialization files were used to hold
> information used to configure application programs. For example, an INI
> file might have a list of the most recently used files or hold the
> status of an option to save modified files. However, INI files had
> several weaknesses:
>
> * Uncertain location-INI files could be found in either the \windows
> directory or the application's directory.
> * Size limitations-INI files were limited to 64K bytes.
> * Easy to modify-INI files were simple text files. End-users could
> modify them and create technical support problems.
> * Hard to back up-Since INI files can be in any directory, it was nearly
> impossible to back up and restore application configurations.
>
> These problems, and others, prompted Microsoft to design the Registry.
> The Registry is a database that contains information about your
> operating system, its applications and file associations. An exhaustive
> list of the different types of information is too long to reproduce
> here. Suffice to say that the Registry holds both hardware and software
> information.
Thore
>Mel wrote:
>
>> Opting for no install programs that don't write to the Registry is the
>> same as opting to continue to run DOS when the rest of the world has
>> moved on to newer Operating Systems.
>_________________________________________________
>
>Really? Forte's Agent, one of the best email and newsreader
>combinations around, doesn't need the Registry at all. It is completely
>portable and works on all flavors of Windows. When you need to, just
>copy the entire Agent folder to another computer or drive and it works.
Exactly, and it works nice...
>
>I gave it up because it doesn't support html based email. If they ever
Thanks god...
--
Venlig hilsen / Best regards
Thore Sorensen - DK2700 Brønshøj / DK2620 Albertslund
(Erstat evt. AT med @ i mailadressen hvis du mailer direkte)
Harvey Van Sickle
Is that "99% will need", or just "99% will use"?
I'm fairly certain I've come across simple executable programs which
use an installer as a sort of fig-leaf to create the application folder
-- because some users find it impossible to believe that a program
that's not installed to the registry could possibly work.
--
Cheers,
Harvey
Richard Steinfeld
That's a very decent description of the registry. Well-crafted. Good
writing.
Richard
Buzzy
> Saving settings in INI files started being frowned upon by Microsoft
> starting with Windows 95. As you have discovered, 99% of Windows
> programs today will need the registry, that is why you have to run a
> setup program instead of just copying the files as was done in the DOS
> days.
>
*sigh* ........ah yes, the good old days!! :)
Cheers,
Buzzy :)
--
--- Buzzy's Stall Wall ---
www.buzzys.net
"The World Wide Web's Rest Area"
Warning: This site contains MY
version of freeware! All are welcome!
dave_test
> I'm fairly certain I've come across simple executable programs which
> use an installer as a sort of fig-leaf to create the application folder
I've seen those too, but not too many of them. I was a big user of
Forte Free Agent, back when ISP's thought it was important to offer a
Usenet feed.
> - because some users find it impossible to believe that a program
>that's not installed to the registry could possibly work.
If I'm the tech supporting them on a regular basis, I'd much rather
deal with those users than those users who burn their C:\Program
Files\Microsoft Office\ to a CD, copy it to a new computer without an
install and then are surprised when it doesn't work.
If the registry is bad, simply recognize that the majority of
developers are going to look to Microsoft for guidance, although I
agree with the comment about .NET being a throwback to the days of .INI
files. If you can wait for the dotnet runtime to be a standard part of
the OS instead of a giant download, .NET programs are supposed to run
independent of the registry and you should be able to just copy the
files.
As as aside, I didn't know that Forte Agent didn't use the registry
(hopefully this doesn't just mean it's the Windows 3.1 version running
OK on later versions). I used to use that program a lot back in the day
when ISP's (wisely) thought it was important to provide a Usenet feed.
Nowadays I have to use Google Groups.
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> As as aside, I didn't know that Forte Agent didn't use the
> registry (hopefully this doesn't just mean it's the Windows 3.1
> version running OK on later versions).
OTOH, XNews is a non-install program which uses the registry to store
certain bits of information; go figure. (I saw an explanation by Luu
Tran about this years ago, but have forgotten why he did it that way.)
> I used to use that program a lot back in the day when ISP's
> (wisely) thought it was important to provide a Usenet feed.
> Nowadays I have to use Google Groups.
Posting from Google Groups: living proof that the Internet doesn't
always get better....
(It's clearly a superb archive, but for posting it's pants compared
with a dedicated newsreader.)
--
Cheers,
Harvey
dave_test
don't they traditionally use a file called .newsrc which lists all the
available groups? Probably no need to dump all that junk in the
registry, which could make the programmer think, why use the registry
at all?
J44xm
> That's a very decent description of the registry. Well-crafted. Good
> writing.
The source was
<http://www.webopedia.com/DidYouKnow/Hardware_Software/2005/windows_system_r
egistry.asp>.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
J44xm
> computer-specific data or user-specific data. Through this distinction
> applications can support multiple users and locate user profile data.
This is definitely a good thing. Of course, can't the same thing be done
by using the user-specific Application Data directories or, far better, by
reading the system's current username and just saving the config file in
the application directory using the name of the current user? BSPlayer
uses user-specific XML files in its application directory. This seems like
an excellent solution.
> However, INI files had several weaknesses:
>
> * Uncertain location-INI files could be found in either the \windows
> directory or the application's directory.
Sounds like bad programming, which is what the Registry was supposed to
help with, I suppose. Why would you tell your application to save its
settings to the Windows directory and not your application's folder?
> * Size limitations-INI files were limited to 64K bytes.
Ah. Still, as Andrew mentioned, XML files could be used. (foobar2000 seems
to have a binary .cfg file.)
> * Hard to back up-Since INI files can be in any directory, it was nearly
> impossible to back up and restore application configurations.
Unless, of course, they're kept in the application directory.
> Opting for no install programs that don't write to the Registry is the
> same as opting to continue to run DOS when the rest of the world has
> moved on to newer Operating Systems.
Certainly not.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
J44xm
> I'm surprised you expected that just copying the application files and
> running them from the portable hard drive would work.
I tried only with certain programs that seemed to be isolated and found
success with some. Some that I didn't think used the Registry do very much.
But my complaint is more general, because I'm looking for suitable portable
replacements for some applications and not finding them for some types of
program. (Yeah, I didn't try with Office.) ;-)
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
J44xm
Pegasus Mail.
I have a two-pronged plan: I keep programs' Registry settings in .reg files
on my portable hard drive and then merge specific .reg files with the
current computer's Registry immediately before I boot specific programs;
then, when I close the program, I export that program's Registry settings
back to a .reg file on my drive and then delete the Registry settings. This
seems feasible to me, though I welcome advice. (Would this approach only
work when I have administrative rights?)
I've been backing up the Registry settings from a batch file (excerpt):
> reg export "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" pmail.reg
> reg delete "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" /f
So I'm wondering how I could automate the process. I could start
applications through a batch file that would merge the appropriate Registry
settings and then start the program, but that approach would require that I
manually (through a batch file, of course) export and remove the necessary
Registry keys after I'm done. Does anyone know of any small software that
might help with something like this?
This might be beyond the scope of this group, but since this sort of thing
concerns the freeware community, I hope someone might have some sort of
ideas.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
Sascha Wostmann
> Mel wrote:
>
> > Opting for no install programs that don't write to the Registry is the
> > same as opting to continue to run DOS when the rest of the world has
> > moved on to newer Operating Systems.
> _________________________________________________
>
> Really? Forte's Agent, one of the best email and newsreader
> combinations around, doesn't need the Registry at all. It is completely
> portable and works on all flavors of Windows. When you need to, just
> copy the entire Agent folder to another computer or drive and it works.
There are several "no-install" Applications, especially in the
freeware/shareware sector. That's why evrey so often, people ask for
it here.
My personal favorites:
Agent
Pegasus Mail
putty
Magic Mail Monitor
The Sysinternal Tools (FileMon, RegMon, TCPView, TDIMon, ...)
...
IIRC even Mozilla FireFox works without installation, and can be run
from an external drive or USB Stick
Viele Grüße,
Sascha
Sparky
> Mel <M...@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:oif5g191erbgn59h9...@4ax.com:
>
>
>>-snip-
>>Opting for no install programs that don't write to the
>>Registry is the same as opting to continue to run DOS when
>>the rest of the world has moved on to newer Operating
>>Systems.
>>
>
>
> J
Yea;
That seems to be a pretty unsubstantiated claim.
-Sparky
Klaatu
> Mel <M...@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:oif5g191erbgn59h9...@4ax.com:
>
>> -snip-
>> Opting for no install programs that don't write to the
>> Registry is the same as opting to continue to run DOS when
>> the rest of the world has moved on to newer Operating
>> Systems.
>>
> Er, this is an opinion of ...?
An idiot?
--
I have nothing to say, and I say it often.
Klaatu
> ["Richard Steinfeld"; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:12:11 GMT]
>
>> That's a very decent description of the registry. Well-crafted. Good
>> writing.
>
> The source was
> <http://www.webopedia.com/DidYouKnow/Hardware_Software/2005/windows_sys
> tem_r egistry.asp>.
Yep. Good cut & paste job there, Mel.
--
"Some folks are dissatisfied with free enterprise if it doesn't work
perfectly, and satisfied with government if it works at all."
- Daniel B. Klein
andrew at portablefreeware dot com
and see if a portable alternative is available. I am even started to
identify which programs are Unicode-enabled recently.
If you come across any good portable apps that are not already listed in
the databsae, do drop me a mail. Thanks!
--
Andrew Lee
The Portable Freeware Collection
http://www.portablefreeware.com/
J44xm wrote:
> ["dave_test"; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 04:27:32 GMT]
>
J44xm
> http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=171424&sd=RMVP
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;316434
> http://www.cadinfo.net/editorial/winsysutilsl.htm
> http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros/help.html
> http://www.mvps.org/serenitymacros/index.html
Thanks for the links, Mel. I'll examine everything and see what I can come
up with. Appreciate it.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
J44xm
> Pegasus Mail
Wait, Pegasus Mail is a no-install?
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
dave_test
Learn something new every day.
Bill Turner
> IIRC even Mozilla FireFox works without installation, and can be run
> from an external drive or USB Stick
_________________________________________________
I run Karen Kenworthy's Replicator from a USB stick and it politely
asks if I want to use the settings from "another installation", meaning
the Registry, I presume. I tell it no and it runs fine on the stick
settings. The next time I run the HD version, it asks the same question
and I give the same answer.
Neither fish nor fowl, but a good compromise anyway.
Bill T.
bambam
wrote:
> If you come across any good portable apps that are not already listed in
> the databsae, do drop me a mail. Thanks! --
I know you said mail, but hey, I'm here.
Xnews
MWSnap
http://www.mirekw.com/winfreeware/mwsnap.html
Magic Mail Monitor
David
furiously:
If none of them used the registry perhaps that monstrosity could be
abolished.
--
David
Remove "farook" to reply
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
Bill Turner
> > I gave it up because it doesn't support html based email. If they
> > ever add html support I'll go back to it.
>
> That's why I use it. :)
> --
> Bob
_________________________________________________
I used to feel the same way, but HTML email has some advantages,
especially for receiving ads from companies that I actually want to do
business with. AFAIK, the security issues with HTML have been fixed so
the main objection in the past is no longer relevant. If this is
incorrect, please advise.
Bill T.
J44xm
> AFAIK, the security issues with HTML have been fixed so the main
> objection in the past is no longer relevant. If this is incorrect,
> please advise.
Another issue with HTML messages, albeit a not-too-important one, is message
size. Many such messages are sent bundled with plain-text messages, leading
to unnecessarily bloated file sizes. (One reason I stick with Pegasus Mail
is that it can easily remove the HTML portion of such messages. I like
that.) This is a lesser problem these days, but it annoys me and some others
nonetheless.
For my part, I wish e-mail formatting was more akin to very simple RTF
formatting: no typeface or font size declarations, but bold, italics,
underscoring, superscript, and subscript. Paragraph formatting would be kept
left-indention only. What more is needed?
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
DevilsPGD
<bo...@charter.net> wrote:
>On 17 Aug 2005 18:56:09 -0700, "dave_test" <dadd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I had no idea there was such a big demand for this type of software.
>>Learn something new every day.
>
>
>It would be nice to do a "clean" Windows install without having to
>re-install all your programs.
Personally, the only stuff I reinstall are Microsoft apps, my Palm's
software (which interfaces with Microsoft apps), Google Earth, my fax
software (It actually works without being installed, except for the
print-from-any-application feature), and a bunch of other software that
interfaces with external hardware (webcam, PocketPC, MP3 players, etc)
--
HTML email should be treated in the same manner as sexual acts.
Only between consenting adults, in private places where willing
parties, whom agreed upon such an act BEFOREHAND, will see it.
DevilsPGD
<w44kz.bayvar[@]tznvy.pbz> wrote:
>["Bill Turner"; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:11:24 GMT]
>
>> AFAIK, the security issues with HTML have been fixed so the main
>> objection in the past is no longer relevant. If this is incorrect,
>> please advise.
>
>Another issue with HTML messages, albeit a not-too-important one, is message
>size. Many such messages are sent bundled with plain-text messages, leading
>to unnecessarily bloated file sizes. (One reason I stick with Pegasus Mail
>is that it can easily remove the HTML portion of such messages. I like
>that.) This is a lesser problem these days, but it annoys me and some others
>nonetheless.
If you say size isn't important, you haven't spent enough time on dialup
recently. I did a 5 week vacation and was on dialup for virtually all
of that time, even eBay and Amazon emails are painfully slow to load on
a dialup.
>For my part, I wish e-mail formatting was more akin to very simple RTF
>formatting: no typeface or font size declarations, but bold, italics,
>underscoring, superscript, and subscript. Paragraph formatting would be kept
>left-indention only. What more is needed?
For the most part this happens if you set ThunderBird to sanatize HTML
mail before displaying it. Does the trick nicely.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people (teenagers and upper
management, mostly) who feel that unless there is something animated,
colourful, a difficult to read font, or otherwise obnoxious, people
won't read the message.
J44xm
> If you say size isn't important, you haven't spent enough time on dialup
> recently.
True enough, indeed. Amazing how great dial-up was 10 years ago and how
inadequate it feels today.
> For the most part this happens if you set ThunderBird to sanatize HTML
> mail before displaying it. Does the trick nicely.
Slick.
> Unfortunately, there are a lot of people (teenagers and upper
> management, mostly) who feel that unless there is something animated,
> colourful, a difficult to read font, or otherwise obnoxious, people
> won't read the message.
I suggest we dump these folks in the ocean.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
J44xm
> I'm working on portable-fying some of my applications. My primary focus is
> Pegasus Mail.
I've got a pretty decent solution going:
From pegasus-mail_registry-mod.bat
> @echo off
> if exist %windir%\system32\reg.exe (set regapp=%windir%\system32\reg.exe)
> else (set regapp=reg.exe)
> %regapp% export "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" pmail-original.reg
> %regapp% delete "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" /f
> %regapp% import pmail.reg
> start /max /wait \APPLIC~1\_INTER~1\PEGASU~1.30B\winpm-32.exe
> %regapp% export "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" pmail.reg
> %regapp% delete "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" /f
> if exist pmail-original.reg %regapp% import pmail-original.reg
> del pmail-original.reg >nul
> set regapp=
> echo Done.
The great thing is that I can use my portable launcher, TrayBar, to launch
this batch file hidden. The batch file sits, hidden, while I use Pegasus
Mail, and then cleans up once I close the program. That's pretty cool.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
Lennart
> Why aren't more programs portable? I just bought a huge portable hard drive
> and I'm transferring many of my applications there and finding that they
> write their settings (or sometimes some other information) to the Registry
> and not to the application folder. Is there a reason more software authors
> choose to use the Registry instead of an .ini or .dat file or something?
> This is pretty frustrating.
My overview of portable sites from keynote
http://www.usbapps.com NOT FOUND @ 15/08/05
http://www.techwriter.de/beispiel/softwar1.htm GERMAN
http://www.xtort.net/office/officesuite.php > Floppy Office. v1.0.0
http://www.portablefreeware.com OF COURSE
http://standalone.atspace.org/index.html RECENTLY DISCOVERED ...
Hope, you can something with this. I've the same problem and last weeks
i've searched internet for portable apps. I think, i've 60% portable - a
least the most important app's.
O, and look also for "portable Thunderbird, portable Firefox and portable
openoffice""
gr, Lennart
Sascha Wostmann
> ["Sascha Wostmann"; Wed, 17 Aug 2005 21:01:49 GMT]
>
> > Pegasus Mail
>
> Wait, Pegasus Mail is a no-install?
Hmm, now that you ask... Maybe I mixed that up with the possibility to
just copy its data directories to another machine and continue using
it there (what I did for about two years until I retired the other
machine...)
Viele Grüße,
Sascha
DevilsPGD
<w44kz.bayvar[@]tznvy.pbz> wrote:
>["DevilsPGD"; Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:56:47 GMT]
>
>> If you say size isn't important, you haven't spent enough time on dialup
>> recently.
>
>True enough, indeed. Amazing how great dial-up was 10 years ago and how
>inadequate it feels today.
Yes indeed. And it's especially scary to me, I left dialup in the
33.6Kb days, so the stable 50Kb connection I had on vacation shouldn't
be as bad a I remember.
Alas, the internet has grown up and let folks online who have never seen
anything but broadband.
Hell, the city where I was staying had a website with fullsize images
that were scaled down in HTML -- So in order to see each little 64x64
"thumbnail" you had to download the entire 600KB image. Worse, they
weren't even links, so your average user wouldn't even know there were
bigger pictures.
>> Unfortunately, there are a lot of people (teenagers and upper
>> management, mostly) who feel that unless there is something animated,
>> colourful, a difficult to read font, or otherwise obnoxious, people
>> won't read the message.
>
>I suggest we dump these folks in the ocean.
The management folks, yes. The teenagers can be locked up on in
dungeons sharing dialup lines until they're 20.
--
You can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 then just a kind word.
David
typed furiously:
>I'm working on portable-fying some of my applications. My primary focus is
>Pegasus Mail.
>
>I have a two-pronged plan: I keep programs' Registry settings in .reg files
>on my portable hard drive and then merge specific .reg files with the
>current computer's Registry immediately before I boot specific programs;
>then, when I close the program, I export that program's Registry settings
>back to a .reg file on my drive and then delete the Registry settings. This
>seems feasible to me, though I welcome advice. (Would this approach only
>work when I have administrative rights?)
>
>I've been backing up the Registry settings from a batch file (excerpt):
>> reg export "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" pmail.reg
>> reg delete "HKCU\Software\Pegasus Mail" /f
>
>So I'm wondering how I could automate the process. I could start
>applications through a batch file that would merge the appropriate Registry
>settings and then start the program, but that approach would require that I
>manually (through a batch file, of course) export and remove the necessary
>Registry keys after I'm done. Does anyone know of any small software that
>might help with something like this?
>
>This might be beyond the scope of this group, but since this sort of thing
>concerns the freeware community, I hope someone might have some sort of
>ideas.
My do you need to use the registry at all. Simply store the items in a
text file, call it .cfg or .ini, in the application directory and have
the program read that file on starting.
J44xm
> Hmm, now that you ask... Maybe I mixed that up with the possibility to
> just copy its data directories to another machine and continue using
> it there (what I did for about two years until I retired the other
> machine...)
Fortunately, thanks to my fix, I've got Pegasus Mail running fine portably.
Whew.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
J44xm
> Hope, you can something with this. I've the same problem and last weeks
> i've searched internet for portable apps. I think, i've 60% portable - a
> least the most important app's.
Thanks much. The solution I announced in another part of this thread seems
to be working well with Registry-dependent programs, so even if there's no
suitable replacement for a program (e.g., Pegasus Mail), at least I can take
it without too much trouble and without leaving behind my settings at
various computers.
--
J44xm <http://j44xm.notlong.com>
Chief Suspect
Sometimes ... not always, I have found that programs which install
with registry entries work JUST FINE if all constituent files are
relocated into the same folder.
For instance, upon installing a popular Stream Ripping program, I
found that a certain .DLL file had been entered in the registry
data and the .DLL placed in the System32 folder.
I isolated the .DLL and placed it with the main executable file
in another folder, then uninstalled the program. Later I
found that the program operated just fine in portable status from
the secondary folder which had the needed .DLL in there with it.
Sascha Wostmann
DLLs are usually searched for in the following order:
1) application directory
2) directories in the "path" variable
3) windows system directory
that way it is for example possible to share a visual basic program by
just delivering the "vbrun300.dll" within the applications directory.
Viele Grüße,
Sascha